S3EP1 - The Roots of Scientology - Part I

A cult? Occult? What are the roots of Scientology? Is Scientology Satanic? Did L. Ron Hubbard steal it? Did he make it up? Was he the greatest distiller of information in known human history? Is it New Age, mystical, metaphysical, hypnotic, or a scam? The answer(s) may surprise you.

All this and more on the premiere episode of Season 3 of the AO-GP podcast!

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Transcript

Jonathan Burke: 0:36

Welcome to the AOGP season three podcast. Our guest is Eddie Cairo, Eddie is a staff member here at AOGP and a wise old soul. When it comes to some of the background information that a Scientology came from, what we do with these podcasts is these are going to be new podcasts for new people. And, uh, what we're going to do do is we're going to try and have two podcasts a week and we'll go into all kinds of cool subjects and get into some great, really great discussions. Things that have never been said, things that have never been discussed before on the internet or in a podcast about Scientology or independent Scientology, we are independent Scientologists, and we'll also try and clear up a lot of the definitions as we go along. So let's get started here. Anything's coming to the show. Thank you for having me. Good to have you here. So first, we want to clear up some definitions about the roots of Scientology and go over some of these more"esoteric" definitions. Let's go ahead and start off with our first definition here that you want to clear up before we get started. Okay. And the first one is right hand and left hand path, correct. Okay. So what is the right hand and left hand path? Alright, so broadly speaking, it's hard to define these things without getting into the history. We will do that, but I'll try to just give a brief overview first. The, um, the do pads are basically how one distinguishes the traditional practice of things like magic and what we are calling Western esotericism. I will define that next, but basically it is a differentiation in our one practices. The, uh, the right hand path are things or constitutes things and the practice of magic and the more difficult to understand and arcane schools of thought, which also fall in line very much with the society in which they exist and the culture they sprung up in it's in line with traditionalist values and morals too, to a degree.

Eddie Cairo: 3:05

Um, but the main thing is that it has a collectivist focus instead of an individual is true. So that's the most basic definition I can give. Okay. Okay. And as opposed to left-hand path, which would be the opposite of that, they are all about breaking taboos and sea breaking taboos as a necessary step in deprogramming oneself from the cultural stuff we've got going on. And these, these hang ups and these circus, just all that sort of stuff. And that is something called liberation theology, which gets into how to liberate oneself from the confines of which the, the, the morals of society have we have been brought up in. So their approach is generally more on the individual and sees, um, individuals, spiritual freedom as the most important thing. Okay. So give me an example of what a ride can't pass would be. Okay. So right-hand path and left hand path. They are many definitions and esoteric assists these days. Some of them totally reject both those terms, but I guess for right-hand path, if I was to give a totally just cut and dry example of those would be very, very organized, magical, and Delphic sets like with the T those are the, those are the organizations that you kind of think of when you, when you think of these ceremonial, magicians and, and spiritual think tanks, are there people who have a very set structure and they have a very strict code of morals. So they're, they're more in line with what we would traditionally think of as a religion with very strict doctrine. Uh, and Don went to an extent, um, I guess the best example I can give that people might know about is Wicker with as an example, but that is the type that focuses almost entirely on, on ceremonial magic, as opposed to salons Sophie and deeper, more, more thoughtful breakfast is like, I do not want to disparage any Wiccans by calling it low magic or something like that, but that is a debate that happens within those communities. Okay. So left hand paths. Okay. So left-hand pass now, oddly enough, I think that Croley probably rejected the label of left-hand path, but, but these days that is certainly the thing that is assigned to the label that is signed to the Lima and the OTO and anything that has an element of shock value in it. Like the, um, Anton LeVay is not a ceremonial magician at all, but he was influenced by, by Croley and is strictly a philosopher, the strictly philosophy, but it is a lefthand bath philosophy. And so is gosh, Luciferian, isms, theistic, Satanism. Um, and we'll get more into that with, with that, those sorts of things mean too, but like anything that, that breaks taboos, and they're not literally worshiping Satan and the strictest most Abrahamic sense, they are, they're essentially either having a different take on the stories and descriptions and scriptures of the Bible and the gospels, uh, that most review is, is extremely heretical. And like I said, they do that in order to free oneself of what they see as just manipulative lies that have been put out there. So that that's just part of it. One of the big, uh, one of the big tenets of left-hand path philosophy is that you need to experience a form of ego deaths in order to do that. You need to break free wholly of any cultural programming

Speaker 3: 7:45

It's would it be safe to say that that, uh, one of the differences between the right hand of the left hand path definitions would be the, the right hand path is in quotes more conservative than a left hand path.

Eddie Cairo: 7:59

Right? Definitely. And, you know, you can use those terms very loosely because I, as in this country, we might think of liberals and conservatives a certain type of way, but even that is not wholly descriptive. It really just depends on the culture you're growing up in. And because culture is very, so we'll right hand and left hand path ideas about morals. What could be considered taboo here might be considered totally. Okay. And in line, and, and in somewhere like India, it might be just completely different.

Speaker 3: 8:41

So would it be safe to say that from 1950 on with Scientology or independent Scientology is as we practice it, that Scientology would be, would you say that

Eddie Cairo: 8:56

It's more of a right hand path or a left hand path we know about left-hand and right-hand past, is that right? I, aye. I cannot really think of many pure examples of those two. I mean, uh, those examples that I gave, they, they, they have a degree of, of, I don't know what you want to call it, baggage behind it, just because that's the nature of this thing. But most forms of esotericism have elements of both left and right hand path and left and path is by no means mean or indicate, uh, evil or, or satanic influences in the way we might think of that. It just really is district differentiation is the goal of the practitioner. Are they focusing on bettering themselves primarily or their community? That would be the difference. So most ideologies, including psychology. Okay. And usually the analogy I use is that people generally, they use, they have one dominant hand. People are usually right handed or left handed, but it will use both. Now. Some people only have use of one hand or only have one hand or whatever, but some people where I'm be dextrous and the same goes for right and left hand path, most practice, uh, I degree. But that was another differentiation I could give is that right hand path, people are usually quite acidic and restrictive and don't do things that are going to raise their domain. It's closer to him, Nastic lifestyle. Whereas left-hand path, people are generally more indulgent and they do not permit allowing oneself to get into an addiction of anything, but they are usually more okay, or even consider it to be an integral part of their philosophy and their doctrine and the religion too, to explore those things. And that can be anything from, from like a right hand path person might meditate to achieve, to achieve enlightenment and can get closer to what they would consider that their form of Nirvana. Uh, whereas I, lefthand fath person might do things that would, would key them out. They will be dancing around, there'll be singing, there'll be expressing themselves. So that sort of the difference wise and the nonpolitical sense. Yes. More conservative and the other is more expressive. Right. Okay, good. Uh, sorry to interrupt, but your question about Scientology. Uh, I would say that it is both.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Okay. Thank you. So the next definition we've got, uh, let's see here, we've got, uh, mystery schools. Okay.

Eddie Cairo: 12:07

So I'm going to try to define mystery schools and it mysteries separately because there is a distinction there, but the mystery schools, the mystery schools are a, um, are a set of ideas and, and organized a lot of them reject the term religion, but I I'm using this strictly in a scholarly sort of academic sense because that's what it is. Mystery schools are secret societies, religions, philosophical organizations that teach these very, very difficult to grasp concepts, the, these sort of secret hidden truths or whatever.

Speaker 3: 12:59

W would it be safe to say that that buy the debt by definition alone, a Scientology from a scholarly standpoint, couldn't be considered a mystery school.

Eddie Cairo: 13:10

Oh, very much so. Yes. I would say that it is another term that is used and like, I, I'm not entirely sure if that was one of the words we're going to clear or not, but Western esotericism is the other is the other way people might describe these things a third or actually there might be for, it was someone might say Western mysticism or someone might say, and this is, this is the one that is generally used in the most neutral sense these days, Western mystery tradition and all that Western mystery tradition is, is a, a type of religious structure where enlightenment is incremental. And there are very clear set out pathways that you build upon because the person at the bottom is not ready for this stuff at the time. It's too intense.

Speaker 3: 14:12

Right. Well, that exactly describes the Scientology. Great.

Eddie Cairo: 14:16

Right. It does. And so that, that's definitely, I, I think an influence that as far as I know that LRA Chad, right.

Speaker 3: 14:25

And we'll get into that more later as to what the, uh, the makeup of these, these earlier mystery schools were and how they've had their, uh, an effect on Scientology a Y. Right. Okay. Next we got, let's see here esotericism in general.

Eddie Cairo: 14:46

Okay. And, uh, there's a difference here. Um, because clue clearing words, you gotta clear all definitions, capital E esotericism in a lot of contexts is different than lower KC esotericism and capitally esotericism basically means, uh, these, these third ways of thinking that have emerged out of Western culture and by Western culture, I do not just mean Europe. I mean, anything that is come in or around where Arabic and, um, and Abrahamic and that sort of thing, that those sort of sorts of religions have Mo mainly thrived in their early days. So it's not just Europe. It also comes from the near East in the middle of right. So give me an example of, of esotericism specifically. Okay. Well, I, I think so I'm some history that is needed here is generally how people think about Western air esotericism. Um, for people who were in the know either for, uh, either from direct involvement or from independent research or scholars, they might know that Western esotericism or whatever you want to call it is, is seen as the quote third way of thinking in Western philosophy, basically how, you know, we have the traditional a REMIC Judeo-Christian, whatever the though the orthodoxies that we built our society on, uh, those are one way of thinking. And then we have, of course sort of irreligion the enlightenment era, rationalism, this, this strict, the secular view of the world. Uh, what most people don't know is that, uh, those were not the only two ways of thinking to come out of Europe and even, even discounting paganism. Uh, if you want to call that a traditional religion, this does pull from it a little bit. Sometimes what Western Western esotericism is a, is a third way of thinking. And it is hard to define much like its definition itself, meaning hard to understand, uh, it is really difficult to pin down because that's kind of the point. Um, I don't know if we want to get into all that right now that in order to survive because of persecution of the various churches in Europe, during and around the dark ages, they had to partially hide their stuff and even more mystery than they already had. That's just sort of what's, what's come of this. And this is, this is just one reason that is so mysterious. Um, but it, it definitely sometimes serves as, uh, as a filter so that people who think in very easily radicalized and extremist ways will not go very far. You have to, you have to expand your, your consciousness. It's very, very similar to what has come out of the East in terms of Buddhism and stuff like that. So the other definition of esotericism, I hope that answered the question.

Speaker 3: 18:38

Well, the question I had, as you said, is that it wasn't a third, a third way. What would the first and the second way be again?

Eddie Cairo: 18:43

Well, I, um, uh, like I was talking about those are the, um, the traditional religious orthodoxies. We have like hard line religion, I mean, on faith alone, diaper, religion, and that Orthodox sort of puritanical, just, these are the way we think these are the way we do that sort of thing. Well, like, like Christianity, like state churches having been a thing and in many, many countries and still are, but they don't have quite as much influences, but uh, many, many countries in Europe were theocracies. So those would be one way. That's one way of thinking is the traditionalist religious way. Uh, the other is the irreligious way is, is this strictly rational? Um, if I cannot prove it directly with the scientific method, if it's not visible, if it, then it's not true, that sort of thing. Those are the two. And so esotericism isn't the third.

Speaker 3: 19:50

Okay, good.

Eddie Cairo: 19:52

So lowercase E esotericism just means anything that is either not intended to, or is inherently hard to understand by most of the population or without a great deal of training in that particular area. Okay.

Speaker 3: 20:12

Uh, Gnosticism

Eddie Cairo: 20:14

Gnosticism is something that goes back very, very far. And we'll get more into that in the second part of this, because this is an ancient, ancient religion. And maybe we'll have time to talk about this at the end. I'm hoping we will on this one, but this goes back, um, to the early and I mean, earliest Christian viewpoint. This is back when, when Christianity was considered a goal, like it was just, it was rejected also since there was no order, the dock scene, there was no central body that was the Christian Church. People had wildly do different interpretations of the scriptures Bible. And this will be, these would be ideas, narcissism shares a few characteristics. And generally it is from a, or an Abraham Abrahamic origin, and mostly Christian, but not always. And they have different ideas than we are used to in the modern day about what has occurred in the story of the Bible. And that usually you see a few different things. You'll see they, they believe that the old Testament, uh, at a God that was different than the new Testament gun and the God in the old Testament was an evil narcissistic vindictive guy. Uh, some even believe he was, uh, what now you referred to as an extra terrestrial who trapped people in physical bodies because the physical world is fucked up, excuse my French. But that is the general tank that people have in Gnosticism that the material world is totally messed up. It's just awful. It's just, you know, we got crime and cruelty. It's just bad, but that the spiritual world is pure and that will be darkness and light. Yeah. And so the God in the, in the old Testament, he was the bad one. He was the demiurge as they call him and the God in the new Testament, because the town changes between those two, those two books, but then the God and the new town minute is the one who is the creator of the universe. And he is benevolent and I'm the present. And there is some variation yeah. As to whether or not they thought Jesus actually existed in a physical form, or that maybe was a parable or that it is strictly a spiritual thing. Or he was an aberration. These are the kinds of care sticks and Gnosticism shares, uh, is, is more of a, um, a general term for these types of things, right? It is because of the people who were writing about the Gnostics during this time, they were not scholars. They were not coming at it from a neutral perspective. They were writing what we would call polemics and polemics are their thesis. Basically they are arguments against, and that that's something we see in Scientology as well, where there is very, very little neutral literature on it. Yes, yes. And the same thing was happening. And these would come either from people who were never involved or who were apostates and any religious scholar will tell you that that is those don't age. Well, those are not reliable sources when you're trying to document something that might not be the way they knew it or might not be at all in a couple hundred or thousand years. Right. So that is a problem that is presented. This is just a broad label that has been assigned to this heterodox, meaning the opposite of Orthodox view of Christianity and the Bible, and sometimes Judaism and even some things that are branched out from there. So in other words,

Speaker 3: 24:34

The, uh, the Catholic religion, at some point, almost any of the major world religions, all suffered from the same growing pains that we see with the subject of Scientology, as far as the, the hidden pieces and, and being called sin, all of that stuff until they gained, uh, uh, uh, popular light with, with, uh, the mass.

Eddie Cairo: 24:59

Yes. Then this is something that you see in every single religion in history, they are all considered cults. They are all something that threatens the establishment. They are usually boxed into a more acceptable narrative, uh, is usually changed a line. There's usually something, some political motivation for, for, for, for there only being one. Right.

Speaker 3: 25:31

I was going to say as to what happened with Christianity and the Roman empire, for example, is it was, it was corporatized. The people will,

Eddie Cairo: 25:41

Right. It was. And that they, they had such a problem with Christianity. It was such a, I guess, what we would call a cult now to them, which the old definition of that word is very different than the way it is used today, which just meant a segment of a well-established religious practice within a culture. But here's the funny little joke is actually quite nerdy that religious scholars have is that a, uh, our religion is a called blessed time because they don't even use words like that. Now there's, it's a slippery definition and it's mostly pejorative and an assessment of quality, and there's no objectivity to it. So it is thrown out because it's unhelpful, but the very same ideas that we have about that sort of thing. It's just pejorative thought about anything, new being inherently bad that was existed in, in Rome, in ancient times. I mean, Christians were fed to lions right now about that. And until, and dill, a Roman emperor finally embraced Christianity for political reasons and could have control over it. Uh, it was rejected and maybe this is speculation. We don't have a lot on this, but it is quite possible that that was because in part that there was so much variation and it is harder to control people when they have wildly different views on their own religion.

Speaker 3: 27:24

Hmm. So in other words, once it was, cautified better, the, the, the more popular, the more stable it was, and it wasn't just an oral tradition. It was a, it was a written tradition. Do we know who the authors of book one and book two were in the Bible? Or is it just,

Eddie Cairo: 27:46

Well, I mean, uh, the, you know, the, the Bible is named after the people who wrote each, each book, do you want to call it? And, um, you know, this is kind of a difficult thing to classify because they weren't, they're called gospels. You know, um, we, we say the book of Matthew and stuff, but it's really the gospel of Matthew. And, uh, those were people who wrote these, wrote these books or, or, uh, sometimes wrote about them. Um, uh, the they're either named after the author themselves, or they are named after the central figures in these chapters. And there are, interestingly enough, there are several scriptures that I left down in the Bible that didn't make the cut of early Christian thinkers. The Bible was not around for the first century, maybe even first two centuries, that Christianity was, people just shared these past them, usually by word of mouth in the oral tradition. Yeah. But it wasn't always, sometimes the few people who could read, they, you know, they would, they would pass, uh, tablets or scrolls or whatever they had to work with at the time. But that made things very difficult to group together. They could not include every single Christian writer who came about, there's some stuff called the gospel Judas. There's, there's the gospel of Thomas there's tons and tons of scriptures that were not put into the Bible. And the Gnostics were at least early enough to be mentioned as a couple of them, a couple of their sex in the book of revelation. So the book of revelations came a long time after

Speaker 3: 29:42

The rest of the scriptures did.

Eddie Cairo: 29:44

Yeah, of course. All I'm talking about the new Testament, the old Testament is a different story that, you know, there are names on it and we do, I mean, Leviticus, and, but for the rest of it, when it's like Exodus and that sort of thing, we, we don't fully know who wrote these, or we know they were, they were ancient Jews in and around the Lavant. But aside from that, and it's not always clear, but there's a lot of debate about that guy.

Speaker 3: 30:12

Okay. All right. So moving on, uh, we've got mysteries, uh, with a lowercase M okay. And what's the, what is that exactly?

Eddie Cairo: 30:23

The mysteries are the, either the initiation rights that, that are very well protected and secretive, inherent to do any religion really, but, but especially the pagan ones and the, the esoteric ones, they're just this, these are the, the things, these are the practices and to a degree doctrine scriptures that the lower level is not prepared to witness or know about. And these things they're, they're usually quite benign. Um, not always, but they usually are, uh, 90% of cases. It's just things that they don't want the predominant religion to know about because it is going to be seen as scary. And we have a, we, it's amazing how we, as humans have both a strong draw and also a strong aversion to ritual. It scares us, but we all have rituals. We just see other people's rituals as, as threat.

Speaker 3: 31:47

Right. So it has a modern example of mysteries. Can we say, like the Freemasons or the masons,

Eddie Cairo: 31:55

Those would definitely be an example, but a, an example that more people might know about, uh, maybe not, I, I might be biased here, but would be the, the LDS church that it was pulled a lot for right hand pass stuff. It was all white magic and justice. Samantha was involved

Speaker 3: 32:20

A whole lot. Yeah.

Eddie Cairo: 32:21

That, and back then that wasn't seen as good or acceptable at all, but these days I just kind of a big truck. Uh, and often they, they would not allow Mormons in to masonry or into Rosicrucians. Uh, I, I think that's line that would have been quite frill if any Mormon came upon their, their doorstep, but it just didn't happen that often, but they Mormons will not allow in these, uh, in these sets either from their own church or from the mystery schools themselves, because they would figure out pretty quickly that, gosh, this is a lot like the esoteric bits of my own religion. It's some of them are identical.

Speaker 3: 33:17

What would it be safe to say that the Catholic religion or the Islamic religion have their own mysteries as well? I mean, just, just to be fair.

Eddie Cairo: 33:30

Yes. Yes. Every single religion as their mysteries, they have, um, a lot less of them usually, or that they do not guard them with the same sort of life and death viewpoint as the quote mystery schools do. But yeah, the Catholic church has a lot of mysteries. That's most of the tradition that they have any single right, that you have to build upon incrementally to get to is considered a mystery.

Speaker 3: 34:04

This is very similar to, to what we see in cytology, as far as when you speak about the upper levels, the OT levels and things like that, it's really no big deal because they all have their own quote unquote ministry,

Eddie Cairo: 34:17

Right? This is something that is just integral to the structure. This is something we are inclined to as a species. It's just something that happens. So I know people sometimes make a whole fuss about, Oh, why can't, you know, everything at once. And then the, why don't you tell people everything, and this isn't new, this isn't something that's even just inherent to Western mystery tradition. This is something that you see in most religions that there is, or are in materials that are in, and only given to people who are deemed in a stable enough spiritual state, or have reached the various stages of enlightenment to be able to get it.

Speaker 3: 35:06

Hmm. That's very interesting. Uh, and lastly, we've got face value, quote, unquote, what does that, okay. So

Eddie Cairo: 35:20

I want to make it clear first that this is not my opinion. This is something that is inherent to esotericism with, or without the capital E face value just means at first glance, what you think of at first glance, like you would use it the same way that you use it in, in conversation or description of a social interaction. So if I, if I said not to take somebody who was convergently hostile at face value, you would probably agree with me. And the same goes for the esoteric religions that are out there, especially Western mystery tradition, you, when you're reading growly or, or Helena Blavatsky, or even Elara Hubbard, you aren't likely to get it, especially if you're new, when you read over the first time. And because it is intentionally droughted and mystery, in fact, in the Koran, it says there are six layers to the Koran itself. Of course the Koran does also say that it does not, it does not negate the other messages you could receive from the Quran, but that's kind of the outlier and other and other mystery traditions. You cannot just read it the first time and think I understand this, and this is how it is, and I don't need to go over it again, because then that's not going to work. You're not going to get it. And it's going to be confusing. That's the way it was written. And you, you have to practice a line that will help. And if, if you were practicing and trying your best to understand this and actually make a journey out of it, then every time you go over it, you will see it through different lenses. And you will understand more of what is actually being said. It is mostly hidden in allegory, and even the second time over, you're not gonna fully get at, it's just getting closer and closer. So that's the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

Speaker 3: 37:53

Okay, good. All right. So we've got those definitions out of the way. What we're going to do is we're going to start from basically a year, one of Scientology, and we're going to work our way back through history. Uh, we thought this would be the best way to go about this, um, to just try and show the roots of Scientology, where these parallels are in these other religious subjects, um, and just kind of roll our way back. And what did the major players and the influencers were throughout history that helped form cytology. Now it is to note that we're not going to get into, uh, the history of psychiatry or, uh, the mind or anything that in this podcast is two part podcasts. This is just everything else. Uh, we'll, we'll hit that later on next week or the week after that, um, we'll get into, uh, you know, opera Freud, uh can't and then all those guys.

Eddie Cairo: 38:51

Yeah. And it would be good to also get into the, the difference in culture at the time surrounding Saifai riders and surrounding just how brutal psychiatry was at the time. So we'll do that next time. This was strictly about religion,

Speaker 3: 39:11

A lot of ground to cover. All right. So where are we going to head first? Okay. So

Eddie Cairo: 39:19

I guess we're going to start with is that I just, I guess since we have new listeners, we should talk about Scientology earlier, Dianetics being formed. And that this happened in 1950 and Dianetics was written in 1949, and this was the era right. Smack after world war II. So there was a lot of collective trauma and just disillusionment and seeking

Speaker 3: 40:00

Baby boomers, people coming back from the war.

Eddie Cairo: 40:03

Yeah. I think the baby boomers were being born during this time, but yeah, the people being who were coming home at the time and, and, and who were experiencing traumatic symptoms and nobody was helping them with that, that

Speaker 3: 40:21

Right. It's interesting to note that the people that were involved in the, in the bigger, uh, looms in Scientology were born either pre world war two, or maybe even in some cases, a Polish world war II in the, in the 1950s, these people were very much more well-educated than, uh, the baby boomers who came into being in Scientology in the late sixties and seventies, Scientology saw two really big booms in the seventies, in the, in the mid to late eighties, probably the biggest boom was in the seventies, I would say. So we're talking about day one and, and earlier, and we're looking at, uh, a nuclear world.

Eddie Cairo: 41:12

Yeah. And, and, and reality was changing during this time for everybody essentially. I mean, got millions of people were just killed in the worst war this planet has ever seen as far as we know. And just all this, all this awfulness was exposed to people who had no idea for the first time. And there were also many other events. People were just starting to in mass acknowledge the paranormal Roswell. It just happened. It was an eventful time period. And the only people who ended up, uh, pursuing, uh, dynamics past it's a new initial boom. And especially Scientology where people who were seekers, who had some problem or who were looking for something, because they were, they were, as I said, deeply disillusioned with their culture and whatever else was going on. So they were, they were, this was a time when it wasn't the sixties yet, where were new religious movements who were something you did because everybody was doing it as a counterculture type of a thing, right? This is when this kind of stuff talking about esotericism really wasn't acceptable. And so the people who ended up in this were people who had the capacity to read a lot of stuff and dig deeper and wholly understand and commit to something. Yes.

Speaker 3: 43:03

So this sort of paints, the patient puts a frame around it, a frown mindset, and that he was, he was one of these people and he was looking for a solution. Um, and based off of his own personal history and the travels that he had done with people that he had met, uh, decided to write Dianetics and then got it published on May 9th, 1950,

Eddie Cairo: 43:25

Right. And hybrid didn't need to embellish his life story. It was already plenty colorful. He'd already been a seeker before world war two happened. And so after world war two H is just multiplied that for him. Well, he spent lots of time at the library and he was a bookworm, not only goodie, right? Just amazingly fast, he would read as well. He would just consume books. And not only did he love fiction, of course, like you wrote in his early days, but he also had a keen interest in philosophy and the lesser known religions of the world.

Speaker 3: 44:17

He was looking for a solution to his own personal problems that he had. He had this diverse background and, uh, science fiction written millions and millions of words, and very good at it. She's also what you would call probably one of the greatest distillers of information the world has ever known.

Eddie Cairo: 44:38

Yes. He was, he, he is written more than anyone else has on the planet that we know of. And, uh, going back to the earlier thing, he tried really hard to receive help, uh, for whatever it was that he was going through from probably just like everyone else, the brutality of world war two. Uh, but the veterans association never took care of them. They kind of let a lot of people just go off on their Merry way and said, good luck. Yeah. And that was the case with, with so many other soldiers. It just, it just was, it was unfortunate, but they, I guess saw that it wasn't worth the trouble. And even then who would want to be in the grasp of the psychiatric system as it existed, then, I mean, God, what was his name, doctor? Uh, the name, the name fails me right now, the man who, who brought the Labatt or me into pride time. He wa he received a Nobel prize right around this time for that practice. Yeah. All those things combined, uh, he was looking

Speaker 3: 45:57

Right. So it was a very brutal time in the domain of the mind.

Eddie Cairo: 46:02

Right. And people had nowhere to go,

Speaker 3: 46:04

Right. So they were looking for a solution and dynamics at that time, posed a solution was a really big, almost overnight success for the solution that it posed to what was ailing these people.

Eddie Cairo: 46:16

Right. And it got results was the thing I'm like other self help books at the time. It could be tried out and people would feel better immediately. And going back even earlier, LRI himself, I'm sure was feeling the ache that the country and the world self from, from the traumatic war that the entire planet has just been through was way worse than world war one. And when world war one happened, the great war, people didn't think it could get any worse. So he was looking for something that would not diminish his freedom. And so often where people turn his religion and because he had an established interest in things that were considered taboo or were alternative, he went off into the, I really prefer to not use this word, but the cold world. And so I guess this is the point, uh, where we need to talk about arsons.

Speaker 3: 47:33

Yeah. Get into the, uh, the a hundred pound elephant in the room. Okay. All right. So let's broach that, and let's, let's start rolling back from, uh, the publication and production of Dianetics is to the formative information closest to present, uh, what was, what was the Hubbard basing some of this information off of from pars?

Eddie Cairo: 48:01

You know what I'm saying? He, before, before Parsons this, just as a quick side note, we should get into this, uh, the next subject that we did, that we do a lot more, but it was already evident after I had left, um, being with, with, with Parsons and, and Croley circle that he was already into that he's learned a lot from it, uh, enough to, I enough to be considered talented hitting. It is, uh, in a known fashion among his inner circle of scifi nerds. So we have to talk about, about Barcenas. Yes. But, um, it wasn't, it was not a dabbler.

Speaker 3: 48:48

He did something, he did it, right?

Eddie Cairo: 48:50

Yeah. He got really, really into this and he learned a lot, you could say straight from the horse's mouth. I mean, but by this time Croley was living as a heroin addict, um, moving from bunkhouse to bunk house and was only keeping up with his organization through letters. He was not really running the show as tightly. He kind of stopped caring because he had other concerns about his health. So he had given the organization OTO or template oriented over to a young rocket scientist and engineer named Jack Parsons and Parsons had been a loyal follower for a long time and, and manage to get a house or a mansion, rather in Pasadena with the money he made from rocketry and, and being involved with, with the government's, um, propulsion laboratory.

Speaker 3: 49:59

Right. He was the founder of JPL. Yeah.

Eddie Cairo: 50:01

Yeah. He was him and his friends. And he would, he would, uh, do these of these, of these hymns and these various ceremonies before blasting off his rockets. And he was, I mean, I have to be honest, he was high on amphetamine some of the time when he was doing this and in front of other government lab workers doing this weird vocal stuff in the lab,

Speaker 3: 50:24

In the 1940s, rocket science junkie. Yeah.

Eddie Cairo: 50:29

It was scientist go workers didn't give a shit, you know, they were just like, okay, totally fine. Whatever, dude, just keep building, just keep building their rocket. It's fine.

Speaker 3: 50:40

Right. Right. Well, look, we'll look the other way for the time being we want out of this.

Eddie Cairo: 50:46

Oh yeah. The, the, the lab techs would, but uh, the upper level people didn't do that for long, but yeah, it, it did it and really screwed them over. I mean, he made a series of bad decisions and I'm sure it started with the drug use and his judgment being asked kilter to say the least, but the, um, I think that was partially because success gets to people, so

Speaker 3: 51:19

Right. They become, they think they're Bulletproof.

Eddie Cairo: 51:21

Yeah. Like when people win the lottery and they lose it all with a couple of years, same type of thing.

Speaker 3: 51:26

And so, uh, however, uh, rented a room in the mansion.

Eddie Cairo: 51:32

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Average showed up and saw on an, I think in the back of a astounding science fiction or something that, yeah, yeah. Yeah. This is a funny side note that the Rosicrucians actually used to advertise in the back of the very same magazine. And it's so funny. It was kind of anything goes, but

Speaker 3: 51:59

Right. But this was, this was the character of the people. This was the flavor of the time that the four were thinkers, you know, I mean, TV was around, you had to have quite a bit of money to have a TV. Keller TV was, was all surround, but there weren't very many color TV broadcasts or anything like that. All you had was radio, but, uh, this is long, long, long before cellular phones and things like that. And they're just playing wasn't a whole lot to do. Reading was a past time to listening to the radio. So science-fiction, uh, Pope science-fiction, uh, was, uh, uh,

Eddie Cairo: 52:38

Yeah, like when people are watching they're, they're, they're, they're trashy reality shows now, or, or their guilty pleasure tubers, it's the same type of thing. But also people, this is something you also see throughout history where people turn to religion, because especially, I would say, show your religion, you know, religion was something nice because they're bored. When, what else are you going to do? Yeah. When, when there's something is new that we might see as disturbing today, too ritualistic or whatever, back then, whether it was Christian or otherwise people, I am, what the hell, what else am I going to do?

Speaker 3: 53:23

Right. There's only so many things occupy your mind when you're not earning lot.

Eddie Cairo: 53:28

Right. And that's true. And so Hubbard showed up, uh, one night in 1946, uh, and he told Parsons that he had seen his ad and yada, yada, he told him a little bit about himself. And, uh, he probably embellished it based off of what I've read, but ours didn't really give a crap either way. He was just happy that somebody who had the money and was interested, not only didn't care, what he did was interested in what it did highly. He was happy that they had these few mutual interests that this dude's shown up. And so he gave him the room and he was not just a roommate. They quickly became fast friends, partners in crime, even

Speaker 3: 54:24

They were pretty tight,

Eddie Cairo: 54:26

Pretty tight. They were, they were doing all of the magic and Parsons was teaching him everything he knew and what it was, was revealing to him, these, these mysteries, these secrets, or these ways of thinking that he had only dabbled in before that he could only get into the surface before, because he he'd read about it. Sure. He was an avid reader, but before then it was strictly a, an outside scholarly approach. Now he got to be in it and he got to see it firsthand. And based off of, we know about his personality, I think that's part of the deal. He wanted to see it up close and wanted to experiment. So that is what Abbott.

Speaker 3: 55:21

So, so there was a, there was, there was, uh, an underlying interest that, uh, Albert had, uh, in these areas. And I think it's important that we, we take a side rail here and mentioned that, uh, as, as taboo as the subjects have been made, especially, uh, the advent of the internet, Scientology and Parsons and the OTO and all of that stuff, uh, everything is derivative. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's art or it's science, uh, mathematics, people get ideas from other areas that subsequently create fantastic creations. Ultimately you have to start somewhere. There has to be a jumping off point, and this was no different for,

Eddie Cairo: 56:13

Yeah. And when you combine two or more ideas, it does become a new idea. That's just how it works. And there is a term for these of belief systems it's called syncretic, syncretic. Religions are ones that pull from multiple sources. There you go, boys and girls, for me, that's something you don't hear every day on the bus on the way to work. No, it's not. And it is unfortunate how little information there is out there about this. And it's subject to a whole lot of Devin. And just a whole lot of age, we'll say, we'll say like, we can talk about the really, um, I had to put it that usually difficult to confront part of the, of the whole saga between him and Parsons. And I'm not talking about, I am ripping them off, like yeah, that happened. But like, I'm talking about the Babylon working stuff real quick. Okay. So I am, you have to also explain here that in a very recent lefthanded path schools of thought, and this is something that goes back and is derivative to a degree of Gnosticism, there was this new way of thinking that, or that the antichrist Lucifer we use types of, of staples are not literal deities and people who were invoking these names were not like sitting there going out Haley, I'm so evil. And I'm just getting off on how Eli on it. That's not what's happening. That's not what that was when people in esotericism. And this is, this does not go for all of Western esotericism. It doesn't even go for half of it, but a great deal of Western esotericism views, Lucifer, the antichrist. They usually stay word way from the word Satan, but not always the beast six 66, all that they see that as something you also have to look deeply into just as the Gnostics generally saw fallen angels, such as Lucifer to be neutral figures. A few of them saw themselves as bad, but a few of them saw him as good to saw him as the one who was coming to enlighten the world against the orders of, as we mentioned before, the narcissistic demiurge, and this was knowledge that Adam and Eve were not supposed to have, and that the snake who made them, you know, eat from the tree of knowledge, just wanted them to become self aware at that self-awareness is not a bad thing. And the idea that is, is an example of the very program. And that was intended now, whatever your viewpoints on that are, I asked you for a minute just to suspend disbelief and drop all that and, and see it as if you've never had stored before, because that's where this comes from. So a lot of people like Levey and, and Laveda not, it does not even, he's not even religious at all. He he's an atheist, but he believes that Lucifer represents an archetype of rebellion and individualism. And he was actually more heavily influenced by Iran than anyone else. Even Croley Croley saw people or figures such as fallen angels and antichrist to be rebels figures, ones who would liberate and enlighten the world. He, yeah, he, he didn't see this as something to do just to be edgy. He didn't think he was putting a middle finger to the establishment or anything like that. He saw this as truth, and there are a bunch of different interpretations how it gone that some people say it was just something he got from his Gnostic learnings or, or, or all of the religious studies that he did because he was a well informed man. He researched a lot. He, he was, he was raised a fundamentalist Christian, and he was deep into it when he was growing up and as an adolescent. And he studied various religions all across the globe. And he did something called automatic writing, which is where you just turn off your brain and write whatever comes out. And this is what he got. And so from the various methods that he and other people used, they came up with these ideas and I will reiterate, again, they do not believe in a literal dualistic world of black and white, like the old Gnostics did. And even if they did, they did not believe that these figures in the Bible were tangibly real. They were representative. So yes, at, or to something that is, that is allegorical to something that is actually occurring in the spiritual universe. And, uh, the face value, they did not think the via the box was to be taken at face value and more Croley. And other people in that area got into it. They saw that, okay, none of this physically happens and that's not what's being described here. This is a battle between knowing and not knowing that's all that Gnosticism, Gnosticism Gnosticism means to know that's interesting. Yes. And many, many religious academics and professors have asserted that Scientology is a modern form of Gnosticism. And I, there was no doubt

Speaker 4: 1:02:44

My mind that that is, yeah.

Eddie Cairo: 1:02:46

At least partially a warehouse, never got the idea. And so the Babylon working thing as people, um, I we're talking about it from again, a polemic perspective are going to be subject to bias. I mean, we all are anyway. Even I'm not free of bias, nobody is, but they are coming at it from either a believers or a culturally Christian standpoint. And as I was saying about esotericism in general, they first ask you to deprogram yourself of all of that. And most importantly, the fear of how so the light bringer is, is what Lucifer means. That means enlightenment in dilemma's eyes, at least in some fellow mites size filet might have no doctrine or Doug, by the way, other religions do, they only have really one line that is there. That is their doctrine. It's do what that will show up. Be the whole of the law love is the law of love under will. All that, that means, and that is easy to have an Amy you on as well. All of that means do what that will. It doesn't mean do whatever you want. That means find your true will, which is find your spiritual purpose, find what makes not you, the bonding with addictions and, and preconceptions now find what makes the core of you happy and that you are best at. And that is your purpose in the universe. Yeah. It could be your muse or your hat. You could look at it in different ways and show me the whole lot. That's it love is the law. And so that all of that means is my freedom to punch and where your face begins. So do not into like the non-aggression principle, do not step on anybody else's toes don't violate anybody else's rights. Don't hurt people. It's the golden rule. That is something that is very important in Western esotericism, kind of like overt. Like, would you want someone to do that to yourself, then don't do it, that sort of thing. So going

Speaker 4: 1:05:18

Back to Babylon working that was at a magical attempt, which cruelly found a little bit ridiculous. Honestly, when he heard about it, he laughed and shook his head, Oh God, something like that. That was a, a ritual that was performed. Uh, and, uh, I'll be blunt with sex magic by inherency to produce the one who would enlighten the world or in some language, the antichrist and what that essentially meant for the lay mites was that that would be somebody who was a very powerful magician. Somebody who was very wise and who would, would be a threat to the establishment and be a revolutionary in a spiritual way. So that's what that meant, but that is often used as a point of slander. And that's also something I've seen Scientologists, not want to confront because they're not. And then they kind of engage in that equals equals say stuff, and they can differentiate,

Speaker 3: 1:06:32

Right. And you have to, you have to have it in a very open mind and suspend your disbelief and look at what the history of these things are. And where were all of these things derived from? Because as we've mentioned before, Albert was a really good distiller of information. Um, we were talking earlier today, the, some of the concepts that, uh, Tesla used and, and at the time that he was doing these things, uh, Nick, he, he came up with concepts that nobody had ever come up with before and was using derivative concepts in order to try these things out. And he was looked at as a it's crazy.

Speaker 4: 1:07:12

Yeah, exactly. And that, that's definitely a good parallel. And he was doing, talking about Tesla. He was doing stuff that was considered to be literal black magic. I mean, people were terrified of electricity when it came out, people didn't know what to think. They had never seen anything like it. And if you brought back a iPhone, probably just 50 years, people would call it sorcery. I'm quite sure that, I mean, this is stuff we see this time and time again, this is this subject for a different episode where Scheiffer predicts technology that comes out. So that's a whole other thing to unpack. But what we were saying about, about not coming at this from any sort of preconceptions you might have, I'm not asking to, uh, abandon any sort of religious views or embrace the devil or any or anything crazy like that. All I'm saying is acknowledge the intention behind this. This was not some act of evil. This was seen as a step towards global enlightenment. And that is a whole other conversation that can be had about sort of a difference between left and right hand path. Some people think that some people in the right hand path saying that there is only a finite amount of magic out there in the world, something a Scientologist might even go call SEDA. There's only so much, cause this is, this is not literal magic. Like we think about it like, like Harry Potter and that sort of thing. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the ability to change the world for the better and bring about new consciousness through art or, or whatever. And that's usually what magic means. And like anything else you have to start with the first dynamic yourself. If you change your own way of thinking, anything can become anything that you can embrace any valence, or you can make a reality true for yourself. And that's what magic is. If you can do that, then you can present your ideas out there through writing through art. And that is changing the world. And that is an act of magic. So that is one very common viewpoint. And that's the most common viewpoint. And that is what's considered time magic where it's more of a philosophy and as a form of self had gnosis than anything else. And so then that's, I guess all that needs to be said about the Babylon working thing or that, although that is used as a, as a damning sort of point when you know the context behind it, it really isn't when you put it in the proper context, right? It's all about intention. Yes. Parsons was directly involved in doing this, was to enlightenment. What was the end result of that? Well, then they very much wanted the, the woman who was to be the catalyst for this quote moon child to, to show up. And they kept doing, doing rituals and trying to manifest the, the powers within their own mind. There's this idea of common in Western esotericism, that, that, that humans are spiritual beings inherently and they have a divinity inherent to themselves was that, that was lost somewhere along the way. That also sounds familiar.

Speaker 3: 1:11:32

It's very familiar in Scientology as far as what a, what a spirit or a theme is in the big bang. I'm an unlimited resource in, in themselves. It's just all held down with strings of women and a Scientology helps get them back to quote unquote native ability or native.

Speaker 4: 1:11:54

Right. And that's, that's what I sort of charism tries to do. That's what boot isn't dressed to do. And then that's what a lot of the philosophies and religions religious philosophies try to do. That is the, that is the objective is to go. And, and so, yeah. What was the question? I'm sorry,

Speaker 3: 1:12:20

What was the end result of them Babylon work

Speaker 4: 1:12:23

Well after using their mental energy or spiritual energy or, or, or is it if you want to put it in and in Scientology's and I read if a woman did it show up sure enough on Jack Parsons doorstep, these were, you know, before goth girls were a thing, they, they, they had the attitude and all that, and she was totally down. She was ready for this. She was, nah, I'm good. When do we do it? Let's go. And our sons and did all the utility of that part. And, uh, supposedly I, at one point, um, our name was Marjorie Cameron. She did get pregnant, but they, I don't know how to say this nicely that, uh, there was that they terminated the pregnancy. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:13:25

That's interesting.

Speaker 4: 1:13:26

Yeah, it is. And I think that was because Jack Parsons realized finally, and his drug addicted stadia at a moment of clarity that he would have to raise this child. It was supposed to become the enlightener world, but he might end up totally screwing them up and creating a monster. He didn't want that responsibility. Yeah. So he meets on, he can do it, but when he started it, when the rally started hitting him, he was like, Oh, we are not prepared for this at all. So to raise the Messiah, basically we can't do this. So they gave up and that was after, uh, not long after, but that was after Rowe I read had, or ripped them off and get it down so that everyone knows about that. I guess if you don't need a bit of a job on him. And, uh, after, after stealing his, uh, his girlfriend, but there was a whole lot of that going on at the lame already. And unfortunately that was part of the culture where people would just panic and they would kind of use each other. I mean, because the people who ended up in dilemma in the forties, in the United States, they generally weren't at the top of their lives and they didn't feel a tremendous amount of liberation and relief, but they often did not work on themselves and they did not take responsibility. And so this was just something that happened and yeah. Um, LRH fucked him over

Speaker 3: 1:15:23

Kind of straightened itself out with Dianetics and, and, uh, took a more, uh, path if you will. Excuse the pun.

Speaker 4: 1:15:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, he started working on it after he left and he did, he did end up, uh, giving a lot of the money and the boats back to Parsons, but not, not before arsons performed a ritual, they retrieved that.

Speaker 3: 1:15:57

So everything ultimately somewhat got worked out

Speaker 4: 1:16:03

Parsons. I had a new girlfriend and he didn't really care.

Speaker 3: 1:16:07

Right. Okay. So let's, uh, start going back down the, uh, time track a little bit more. And, um, where do we go from here?

Speaker 4: 1:16:19

Okay. So the next thing on the agenda would be, I think we should talk a little bit about the set that the Lima directly led to, to have your writing. Dianetics Hubbard was very, very focused on the Greek aspect of the Limus. The layman is also some critical goals from a lot of different things. It's not just Western esotericism that as a lot of different pagan roots and some, like I said, some Elamites are, are completely atheistic and have different ideas because there is no set doctrine on what these things actually mean. It's like, and live your own truth. It's only true if it's true for you, it's not like that. So a hybrid seemed to very much have a preference for the Greek deity Diana, and he wrote it for a lot and in his journals and stuff, he referenced her. And he talked about having a Holy guardian angel, which is a consulting Khalilah, uh, of kind of like in other similar traditions, there are spirit guides and dream advisors and that sort of thing. And that is,

Speaker 3: 1:17:51

It wasn't much different than, than that.

Speaker 4: 1:17:54

No, it wasn't. And usually this is seen just like Terra cards and all that business as an extension of your own consciousness and, and kind of like a TOPA. And that is, that is essentially what he was using to, to, to be his muse. He formed his own use. And that was a, I don't know if Diana was the name of his guardian angel that is joining him and himself, but he referenced her a lot when he was writing dynamics to get inspired and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it probably comes from that at least partially. And it's interesting. I actually have, I have a note on this newest, it has something that has a lot, uh, context to it. Like it's not just, it's not just, just as simple as a word for the mind. That is not all that it is. This is something that comes from the health clinic line of thought very, uh, very clearly, and not even in the pagan way. A lot of this is pulled from the Greek philosophers, Socrates and, and very, very often played up. I mean,

Speaker 3: 1:19:18

Which he credits in some of the early books quite a bit as well.

Speaker 4: 1:19:22

Yeah, exactly. I mean, he talks about growly on the briefing core, but yeah, so this is something he acknowledges the church does not, I need to put that out there that the church denies all of this, they claim that this was some sort of mission for the feds and yada yada, yada, whatever

Speaker 3: 1:19:45

I know we're trying to do here is we're trying to trace this whole thing back. We're not trying to, uh, notify Albert or anything like that. Obviously we still practice independent Scientology every day with GP. And we're just trying to sort of unravel the tale from a viewpoint of a less on biased individuals and to kind of the right tail, the tail.

Speaker 4: 1:20:12

Right. And we were talking about this before. That is you, if you buy into the sort of goal in child, perfect overachiever narrative, this, this deification process that is formed around Hubbard's lives, you're probably going to you, you're just setting yourself up for an ERC break. You are

Speaker 3: 1:20:40

Yeah. And upset. In other words, if you don't know what they are see break is it's a, it's an upset based off affinity, reality communication. Then the basis of all of those is understand that you're going to be, we're going to be a little disillusioned when you find that the narrative is not necessarily what the church would, would like to paint it.

Speaker 4: 1:20:59

Right. And fully acknowledging that L Ron Hubbard can be a little bit of a jerk to say, the least is not discredit or devalue the work that he did.

Speaker 3: 1:21:14

Right. Like he says, if you ever have a problem with the Scientology or the technology Scientology, isn't the technology itself. It's the personalities involved. Yeah,

Speaker 4: 1:21:24

Right. Yeah. He was far from perfect and even signed ology itself is far from perfect, but it's damn good. And it's better than anything else out there, in my opinion. Right.

Speaker 3: 1:21:37

Mine as well may not have all the answers, but it's a hell of a great start. Yeah. I agree. And it's based off of all these things that came before that are there basically Scientology is made up a lot of derivative concepts, which we're trying to discuss here in this podcast and, and future ones as well.

Speaker 4: 1:21:58

Right. And doing degree, I even think that this is better. It's a far better story. All of this, having lived this sorted colorful lives and then achieving something, if it was all just great from the beginning, what kind of story is that?

Speaker 3: 1:22:20

Right? Yeah. The most college for people, I had to have the best stories and the most believers.

Speaker 4: 1:22:25

Right. So that's the way of looking at it that I have. I never, I did not come from a background where I ever heard any of the false narratives around his life, but that is not changed my opinion. And I'm still here. So acknowledging all of that and, and talking about the whole, like guardian angel and all that stuff. And you can see other illusions as actions to, to OTO stuff, to Selena, to esotericism in the affirmations, which were a document or series of documents that were found in a, among his possessions a long after he had established the church and it is verified. They aren't his and all that. And it's definitely his writing. And this is what we're talking about with, I guess I can't think of a better, more neutral word for it, but sort of self hypnosis, where you have to, you have to validate yourself and talk yourself into success. It's the law of attraction you put out there, what you want, you make your own truth.

Speaker 3: 1:23:44

Right? Right. These sorts of concepts existed long before Scientology among court Dianetics. And, you know, they, these concepts were polled and, and finally tuned and everything like that and, and represented almost entirely and in their own nomenclature, within the confines of Dianetics and Scientology as definitions of these concepts.

Speaker 4: 1:24:07

And when you get right down to it, all of this stuff is just metaphysics. That's what it is. And I think now would be a good time to draw the comparison. So the elephant in the room, the other one is that people are going to associate, or kind of a equals equals a, the, the, the Illuminati stuff, the sort of evil version of esotericism that is out there. But that is by no means the same thing. It's a lot like Scientology. Anything that could be used for good can be used for very bad as well. I mean, look, what's happened.

Speaker 3: 1:24:55

Right. And documented that on the Philadelphia Darcie course and said, this will happen at some point, then if it does happen, do something about it. And that's, and that's happened throughout history and multiple, multiple religions.

Speaker 4: 1:25:13

Yeah. And he knew that he probably saw that that was, that was already happening and had been happening and esotericism, except it was hidden. The people who were doing it openly are not bad people. They are on a spiritual trip on a spiritual journey. They're not then I in anyway, but a lot, like what has happened in the church, there are people who have corrupted things and who have gay things and they have in use. And this is what a Croley would have called a quote black brother. And that is someone who has purely evil intentions, uh, and using these sorts of techniques and that, that we can relate to the concepts of black Dianetics and black Scientology.

Speaker 3: 1:26:09

Right. Even with Crawley, he even saw that this sort of thing was, was the extent and actually had a term for it, similar to what LRH just only a few years later, but what coin is black dynamics that it can be used against people in order to,

Speaker 4: 1:26:28

Right. Exactly. So this is something that happens. It happened with Christianity. We know that it did, I mean, even, even leaving out and there's no reason we shouldn't be even leaving out the Spanish inquisition and just, just say, it's the children's crusades. And just all of the, all of the, the extremist, uh, versions of Islam that, that I've, that have become more popular in recent decades. Just all of that stuff is just another example of people abusing spirituality and weaponizing it and using it for whatever purpose, just evil purpose

Speaker 3: 1:27:09

History, repeating itself, religious context.

Speaker 4: 1:27:13

Yup. And it's happened in the Catholic church. It's happened in Islam, in anything you can think of it's happened. And it happened when, when it, when people had perennialists pagan religions and the, the local cane in ancient times said, Oh, I am this guy. I am the, this God that you all worship, it always happens. And it's always for the same political reason control.

Speaker 3: 1:27:40

Right. Which we've seen with ms. Gavin in the church, you know, chairman of the board.

Speaker 4: 1:27:48

Mm. And it's just become a high control group, that's it? And that's all, it is just abuse and, and not given a grab. And I guess a suppressive person never knows the suppression, so it's easily justified, but even Croley acknowledged that that's really interesting. It is. And he crawly, uh, said that, uh, black brother will be able to rationalize it any way they can,

Speaker 3: 1:28:20

Which is very similar to the surprise of person concepts and that technical bulletins on the subject.

Speaker 4: 1:28:26

Yes, it is. And just like in Scientology, Crawley was not a great dude. A signer of the Lima was not a great dude. He was very flawed and it was his undoing in the end. So this is, this is something that you see in every religion, right.

Speaker 3: 1:28:45

Parsons Parsons was a genius when it came to rocket science, but, uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:28:53

That he shouldn't handle explosives while high on various types of speed at the same time know. And I'm not saying he deserved that, right?

Speaker 3: 1:29:04

No, it's, it's, it's unfortunate for somebody that was as brilliant as him and knew we would not have gotten to the moon if it weren't for him.

Speaker 4: 1:29:12

No, it wouldn't. No. And it's just, it's such a sad thing that not only could he die that tragic death, but, uh, people who break from the mold in the spiritual sense are[inaudible] I, sociopolitical, censor are always vilified. And if they do happen to make it and have a significant influence, then the history books go back and they change the context to say, Oh, they were, they were completely in line with the culture. And at the time they cooperated with the government and they were benign. That's what they did with Martin Luther King. And that's why we're not taught about Malcolm X and school until very, very late, because that is harder to spend.

Speaker 3: 1:29:58

Right. Right. It was more deliberate in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4: 1:30:02

Right. It wasn't letting stuff. Yeah. That's happened with Gandhi. It's happened like with MLK, just every single person who is a revolutionary in any sense of the word who manages to do it, they are changed. History is revised so that it doesn't look like that they went against them. All

Speaker 3: 1:30:28

Right. It sort of provides the narrative of the powers that be. Yes. Yes. Okay. So let's start rolling back a little bit. We're in the, uh, early part of the 20th century.

Speaker 4: 1:30:40

Yes. This is, uh, all right. So, uh, the dates that, like I said, uh, uh, I was involved from early 1945 or mid 1945 to late 1946 in an official capacity, but continued in to the late forties and to about 48, 49. We're not going to get into, to nibs. If you believe him, I went into the fifties, but he's a dubious source. So the next part is talking about Croley Curley's background. So Crawley's background was that, like I said, he was a fundamentalist Quaker growing up. Yes. And he was into it. He wasn't like a rebel kid. He was like, I hate my parents or anything like that. He, he genuinely enjoyed his life, but when he got to be an adult and was going around preaching and selling Bibles, he started to get disillusioned and started to question. He wanted to see if there was more to this, to what was in the Bible and they weren't having it in his

Eddie Cairo: 1:32:00

Community. And where he grew up in the UK was not about it. They saw it as, as heretical that he would even be questioning. And it's not that he was becoming an apostate yet. It was that he had a different opinion, not as radical as it became towards the end of his life. But he had a different opinion on what the Bible was saying. He was asking, is there another layer to this? So he was slowly questioning things. And then finally, and, and, and college, since he, uh, he was bisexual, he finally had, uh, an encounter with another man. And then yeah, that everything started falling for him that gave him permission. And his mind when he finally broke well was at the time considered to be an ultimate taboo. He said, you know, screw it. This is what I'm going to look into this stuff. So he did. And he, he would go library and he started getting involved in different groups that, that held cryptic knowledge. And he started traveling all over the world, studying different things. I mean, he studied Islamic mysticism, East study Kemet tourism, which is a revival of ancient Egypt and paganism. He studied, he studied the ancient Gnostics. He was able to acquire 5,000 year old texts on ceremonial magic. So he was a seeker. He was like the ultimate seeker at the time. Yeah. And this was at a time when none of this was acceptable at all, just from the beginning. This is seen as, what the hell is this guy doing? You know, like it was freaking out most people, but I think part of that is that he needed a counterculture he needed that use to just deliberate itself. And so now looking for something more. Yeah. And you couldn't find that so easily back then, he couldn't just go to the nearest hipster bar and hang out. There was nothing like that. Right? Yeah. The Bohemian sort of, I don't know, subgroups, subcultures just were not as big back then. And look when they were there, they were not intellectual enough for, so he would go and he would, he, he kind of hopped around different sex for awhile, but he eventually found somewhat of a home in the hermetic order of the golden Dawn, which was a nother right-hand bath, ceremonial magic group. And they, they weren't as woo,

Speaker 4: 1:34:58

You know, guesting, Isbell, hand motions, all that as much as they were focused as our medicine ism is with the magic of the mind and the power of changing one's own perception and accessing higher levels of consciousness and trying to get out of the death rebirth cycle. Um, that's really their, their main focus or at least what it was. They're no longer around. Yeah. A lot very similar to Buddhism, similar to the Jains, uh, similar to a lot of the Eastern religions that many of them want to get out of the death and rebirth cycle. That is a thing that you see a lot. And so that, that was also influential. And I think in the next episode, we'll totally get into the Eastern stuff because they deserve just as much attention because they were just as influential on me. That is something I ever didn't have any problem acknowledging.

Speaker 3: 1:35:58

Hmm. Well, and it's interesting to put this in context, this period that he was looking into, this would have been timeline-wise roughly what year I'm crawling. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:36:11

1898 to 99 that he joined their medical order of the golden Dawn.

Speaker 3: 1:36:16

So towards the end of the tail end of the industrial revolution, uh, he's looking into, uh, subject matter about there being multiple lifetimes and people having past lives and things like this, which are, these are, these are common themes that come up in Scientology in, in auditing or spiritual counseling, uh, that nobody pushes you for. But you know, they, they do come out and people start talking about it and everything. So here's another parallel that we're seeing, um, 50 years class prior to the, uh, publishing date of dynamics. Uh, and there was even a point shortly thereafter in the, uh, LA, uh, lectures where Howard said, you know, this past life stuff, it's a bunch of hooey. I don't believe it. And then the next day he comes out and says, you know what? I understand about it being a bunch of hooey, forget that. I said that.

Speaker 4: 1:37:12

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, that is something that, that's another thing that is hard T to deprogram yourself from, if you were raised Christian or any Abrahamic, religion talking strictly non Gnostic, especially, it's hard to get out of that fear of hell and the idea that this is the only life. Yeah. It is. That's just something that's there. I mean, even if you're not a Christian, even if you grew up clearly irreligious people who are in this culture, when they have a near death experience, they will see Jesus and that sort of thing, but a Hindu and they will see, they will see Andrew. And just like, as somebody say, we're raised in a strictly animist religion that could be African or Japanese and in the foreign Shinto or whatever, we will see their ancestors, it's that sort of thing. And that is how deep the cultural programming is. And that is why people like Croley saw it as so important to deprogram yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:38:21

Right, right. In Scientology, we even have a tech reference for that, you know, false data stripping, you know, to kind of clear the decks and go what Jen you think we can should think with, you know, and where did, where did that data come from? And is it true for you? Is it not true for you? That sort of a thing,

Speaker 4: 1:38:41

And that that's, that's liberation theology in and of itself.

Speaker 3: 1:38:45

Right. Right. And it's important to note that the underlying theme with Croley all the way through Scientology and Dianetics and multiple other modern day religions and, and even predating Kirlian in the late eighties and nineties is this, this theme of truth.

Speaker 4: 1:39:04

Yes. Of individual freedom and freedom of mind and freedom of thought.

Speaker 3: 1:39:10

Right. And we're going to follow this all way back.

Speaker 4: 1:39:15

Yeah, we are. And so this, this goes way back before all of the, the edgy symbolism was added to, to offend people because that was seen as a, as, as a positive, or is something necessary before that was added. Um, this, this goes back as far as you can take it. It just does. And then that is an idea called perennialism perennialism is, is stuff that you see popping up in cultures that exist in different continents, like, like the, the old hag about, uh, what is her name, Baba, Yaga, I think in Russian, right? You see her all over the world, this, this forest witch that lives all over in this ancestor worship. This is stuff that comes up everywhere. And we'll talk about the great flood to flood myths. Just all of this.

Speaker 3: 1:40:09

Yeah. There's all these, these underlying themes all over the planet, these common, common parallels, these, these common core concepts of freewill probably being the, the most opportune or, uh, easy to think with. And everybody can have is that they, they don't want to have their freewill violated, but when people are programmed by these spiritual concepts, uh, you know, from early childhood on it, so it's hard to snap out. And this is something that curly was, was looking into.

Speaker 4: 1:40:42

Yes, it definitely wasn't. It wasn't just him, but it was a big win for him. He didn't even grade the OTO early was not the founder of the OTO. He just took it to the level. And I'll explain what I mean by that he had a falling out with the hermetic order of the golden Dawn. And basically he, uh, I should, I put it in a Scientology parallel would be that he was looking at upper level material and they were getting upset with him. And he, there was a shouting match where they wouldn't let him in to the gate at one point, literally, you know, he was locked outside and they're yelling and a conference come in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This was in the UK and a, uh, and, uh, you know, a police officer Gosta will comes by and somebody called him and he didn't know how to handle this. Cause was like, I don't know. It may be a lawyer. This is not our realm. You know, I don't know, wizard law, then that's a good thing. He didn't, because witchcraft was illegal in the UK. That was another reason for all the mystery and all the secrecy. This was not something that was done malevolently it was out of survival. Yes, it was. And I mean, curly was looking ridiculous. He was just in Kerrwood if anybody thought he was going out and dressing in like a golden robe and had the Egypt head dress and they would just, he looked nuts. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 5: 1:42:19

And so that was,

Speaker 4: 1:42:21

That was just his, his being, it's just his personality though. And so he was the perfect figure to come along in the world of the occult. And then I'll call is a term that came up in, uh, around the gosh, the 17 hundreds that has not been around very long at all. That is something that has appears your narrative label now, but essentially just means in a, in fact there is a medical definition for the word uncle's and I know in clear, and we usually don't get into the technical term. Yeah. Yeah. In medical sense means hard to detect something that is, is not have a clear cost. So that is relevant. It's sort of like that. And like I said, um, this kind of thing is not in mystery, uh, for, uh, leadism alone. There is a degree of that, especially now when it doesn't need to be that way, but a lot of people still do just have a few tradition and then that's where chaos magic came from and all that. But that's a whole other can of worms, which had greatly resembles Scientology, basically distilling all of this down as best as the founder could. Um, and, and, and allowing the people to have it. I was saying before were some as thing, there was only a finite amount of a magic thing, or whatever you want to call it out there. Others think, no it's infinite. Anyone can do this. Anyone can have this, there doesn't need to be all this woo and secrecy. So that is something that I want to make clear as well. Um, yeah, it is. And it, it is hard to understand, uh, I might sound like I know a crazy amount about this, but, you know, I'm just like a low level guy when it comes to this stuff. I I'm really not as deep into this as some people are. Um, but I know enough about it from comparison. And that's why this is such a valuable subject. You can learn a lot and just from observing pattern. Right? Exactly. So when Croley left the hermetic order of the golden Dawn and he joined, um, the OTO, which was fan founded by a man named reus, I forget his first name, but that was his last name. Justin Reese, I think, was his name. Um, he, he was at the same time experimenting with other religions and philosophies and, and trying to develop his own metrical system. And it was trying to gain some traction in one day, some Otiose facials that came to him and said, what are you doing? Telling people about our upper or upper level secrets? And these are, I didn't do that. I was stuff I came up with on my own. And they went, Oh, Oh my God. Okay. Then you're the guy. And they put them right at the top because it was, his stuff was directly compatible. Some of it was exact for what they'd written. And he did that just out of automatic writing, tapping into collective consciousness, all that stuff. He was dipping into the perennials I was talking about, and he'd done it successfully. He trained himself enough in, um, in his eclectic interests that he was able to form a coherent take. And some of it is totally subject to his bias and, and other weirdnesses that he had and had I just crazy 2d stuff. Some of that is definitely in there, but he was seen as wise enough. And that is just one layer, like I said, not, but he was seen as wise enough and in the know to be, to be the head of the OTL. And he was from then on, he brought it to what it was. Yeah. And he focused on

Eddie Cairo: 1:46:50

What the rest of esotericism is focused on the power of will, um, tension. And we'll get to that, uh, more in a second. I really, I don't think we talked about Metta beliefs, did we? But I, I would like to. So, um, I hope I don't forget. I don't remember if I've written that down or not, but that is something that needs to be talked about. So before that, before the OTO had founded in 1906 and before Curley's involvement with golden Dawn, 98 and 99, 18 hundreds, uh, we need to talk about the context of what was happening in Europe and UK and United States at the time within the spike in interest of esotericism. So this was the late 19th, early 20th century. Um, gosh, like, yeah. And this is from around the time of the civil war, right after it, to the turn of the century, the, uh, the, there was a spike, there was a huge way, or just a boom of, of people being interested in what else is out there. And I I'm, I can't say I split Derek again. I've used it too much. So there's no other real term. I, I think I've used all the synonyms, but all of this arcane stuff that these secret keys to the universe that at least they seem to be that these metaphysics people were finally starting to realize there might be something to this because they were getting results. And even people were just curious, we're finally ready to go through it because there was a little bit of a counterculture happening at this time in that context, right? And new agent mostly pulls from Eastern stuff, but esotericism at Western esotericism bothered borrows a lot from Eastern stuff. This is all related. It all comes from a common source, as far as I'm sorry. It seems to, and it always leads you to similar places, even completely independently, just like that story with Crow. So, so this, the, the stuff that was going on, people were, people were just, high-key interested. They wanted to know they were secrets and mysticism was having a boom. And this, this was just the culture of the time. And some people saw it as something that was strictly a pastime because they were bored and they're Richmond and have to worry about anything. But even the working class where we're experimenting and dabbling in on these different groups that we're spraying up, we're, we're, we're recruiting members like nobody's business. And this is a time when most people are just Christians out. And of course, most of these things that were, that were gaining popularity at a Christian base were, were modern forms of Christian Gnosticism. Where were you probably heard the term in new wage Christ's consciousness that comes from this, that comes from this Gnosticism Christian Gnosticism, where they believe that Jesus Christ is an idea and what you should strive for in consideration of others and sort of this, this Zen a way of me. And then this was essentially what people are seeking. So that is what was happening. And I want to talk about, about Helena Blavatsky and all that, and what she thought of this. But since we're going, in order to next, I will get into the fact that the golden Dawn itself, uh, I might've misspoken so that it was only around for a couple of years. And that was when curly was involved, 90, 80, 98 and 80 99. Her medical order, the golden Dawn itself was around from 1887 to 1903. And yeah, it was formed in 87 in the midst of all this. And then, you know, they were just dudes, really. I think they had it and some women, but it like a lot of these, there was a, uh, a faction of elite, some of the boys club sort of thing, and it was poverty with rich men. And, um, we can talk about it at some point have about Freemasonry did, did not allow, not allowed black men. And for, for ages, just for a long time, neither did Mormonism, the LDS church, fundamental LDS. People still did not allow blind men to be in the priesthood. This is something that you'll see where these ordinate organizations are not free of bias. And eventually these things will change. There's always done it pretty well. So far. Yeah. Equal except slaves and women are women, white girls were mutually exclusive ideas. Yeah. Why males over 18 who own property is what they meant. Okay. So, you know, there's an interesting thing about that, that many of the founding fathers sort of, at least they, they, they were ill at times. They, they dabbled in this sort of thing and really were obsessed with the significance and the symbology and all that. And obviously like with the Freemasons, not letting black dudes in, and then I'm done being, being an up and elitist, like April kind of in that way about religion

Speaker 4: 1:52:46

When I was listening to the demos, um, um, bro TRS course, uh, when that guy said, he thought that, so and so, and, and then thing, someone deserved a franchise, which was the older term for a mission. That's something that you see where people get exclusionist about stuff. Yeah. It does throughout history all the way back. Like I don't want to share that sort of thing. Somebody doesn't deserve this, and that is a problem. And that's probably where we got how we are now. Right. So the next part I'll talk about is as someone who was highly influential in the realm of gosh, not just esotericism, not just religion, not just new wage and spirituality, she was influential in pop culture and philosophy and art and thinking and, and literature, none other than Madam Helena, P Blavatsky, right. HPB. And she called herself and Madame Blavatsky was a Russian noble woman. She was aristocracy who rejected that she hated the aristocratic scene. She hated all that stuff that she was born in tissue would even severely injure herself so that she wouldn't have to go to balls. She, she, she stuck, her sweat ended up on a boil and water. She wouldn't have to go dance with the dude by all accounts. She was probably, I sexually, she never wanted a romantic partner. She wanted to, she smoked a hundred cigarettes a day and she was this crusty old Russian woman. And she, all she wanted to do was study religion, have phenomena happen and ride, ride, or horses across the uncharted terrain. So then that was the personality we're dealing with. Again, a Maverick, somebody who was considered to be an extreme outlier of their culture. And she was given permission by the arranged husband that she ended up with and her father to, to go get it out of her system and the new world, basically go, go, explore whatever you gotta do. Just, just go do it, come back though. You never did. Of course, when she was out there, she had too much fun and she started her own religious ideology and organizations. And she has influenced everybody from, from L Ron Hubbard to add off Hitler to David Bowie, to gosh, to Andy Warhol, just, just

Eddie Cairo: 1:55:44

Anyone you could think of. She has been influential and the good, the bad and the indifferent she's. She was a major staple of a Western and Eastern culture. And she does not get enough credit. And partially to blame is the fact that the Nazi party was not inclined enough towards to his deep God to actually look at what she was saying. And they were kind of taking a strictly eugenics and racially chauvinistic take on the whole thing. Like, do you hear the word Arion time and time again? Arion does not mean what it means. Now. Arion literally meant a old tribe in the North Indian mountains. And, uh, they end, they, you know how I have to apologize that they walked over all bunch of places. They went to all over the middle East and into Russia. This was, this was an anthropological term. And the way she used it was about the knowledge that they had. And she also talked about, about the great flood that had happened. She had talked about, um, Atlanta's she talked about lost continence lost species. And she says that she talked about trans humanism and basically describing that humanity can evolve to a next step. But usually it messes itself up right after it does that. And restarts, she talked about people coming in from other planets. She talked about stuff that nobody was talking about at the time. So she didn't just get this from nowhere either. She spent years, decades exploring the various in religions out there, Eastern and Western. She didn't really have much of a preference. It was kind of half and half. So she, you know, she went around, uh, the, the occult circles in the United States, you pay and, and Egypt and Turkey, but she also went to Tibet and India. And that region seeking knowledge from seeks, um, Buddhist Janes, and more than anything else, I believe Dows Dallas and induce. So she, she formed her own thing. Yeah. Was she, she was, she is the very poster child of some criticism and she formed a philosophy, the religious philosophy known as the ossify. And theosophy eh, guys, guys, if you think that Scientology is hard to understand theosophy is out there. Like it, it, it is really, really cool and really interesting to study, but it takes decades just to actually fully grasp. It's a good 20 years of research to be anywhere close to the top of understanding that.

Speaker 4: 1:59:08

So that's, that's where

Eddie Cairo: 1:59:10

A lot of this comes from his polls. From any on any article you read about the Onfi will read about how she directly influenced Scientology. There are

Speaker 4: 1:59:21

A lot of parallels. There,

Eddie Cairo: 1:59:23

There are a lot of blight branches and splinter movements you might've heard about. I am activity at one point or another, and that was a form of theosophy adapted for more modern context. So this woman was one of the people that I'm talking about. She was a J she was also imperfect and was, uh, she was in show business, uh, way more than she should have been. She sometimes, uh, forged results and that sort of thing. She was imperfect. And that was her undoing as well. So, uh, they, you know, they wrote his thesis on her too, and constantly tried to debunk her and all that. And, and did not, did not take into account, uh, a point of neutrality from documentation that was not acknowledged. So this is like, as this is something that we see a lot, the common theme. Yeah, it is that it it's like an attempted destruction of history, even because there's nobody sitting there just writing stuff down without a bent. But then that's unfortunate.

Speaker 4: 2:00:48

It's all a matter of viewpoint.

Eddie Cairo: 2:00:51

And she came up with this idea of the cosmic masters or the ascended masters, depending on which book you're reading, and this is the same thing. It, all it means are these people, these figures who have been enlightened enlightened enough to, to change humanity in a spiritual way. And on that, she includes Buddha, Jesus Mohammad, all of these sacred, I got to her and depending on which, which branch of theosophy follow, or they're either angels or just extremely enlightened teachers, or, or they are, are, are, are people somewhere else in the universe. And so this is, again, something that you have to, you have to look at it through your own lens. And again, it's the number of times over thing. There's no way you can even understand a little bit of the ASPE reading Blavatsky, his work the first time, or even the second day you have now like a key kind of like having a dictionary dictionary. You have to have something like that. Three. I don't understand any of it. This is a nomenclature, not just that she speaks in allegory and, and people who don't understand that she's speaking allegory will let us how you get the that's, how you get the Nazis and just like anything else, they use that for manipulation and to, and to brainwash their own people. And they didn't know how to get deeper into it, but they knew they could use it for control. Right. That's what they did. Yeah. Merely again. So that's the common theme here. And the next part we should go to is that while all this is happening, uh, the greater United States culture was not immune from, for lack of better term, the hysteria of all this at the time, it was something that could easily be coined as spiritual wisdom that was happening, which were people were doing seances. And this is where the Ouija board comes from. People are finally starting to acknowledge them. Okay, there are ghosts. And then there just might be yes. And maybe we can communicate. And so they were trying, and a lot of this was people trying to go and, and, and talk to the loved ones who went past. And that was understandable. And a lot of them were getting results. There were where they were. Yeah. Tappings and things going, boom, pinches, just, uh, possessions. Even then there was some of that happening. There was just older guys to any, any of the difficult paranormal stuff that you think of what's happened as far as Blavatsky was concerned, all of this was a byproduct of people who didn't know what they were doing, messing around with the lowest tier, a diluted esotericism. So that was, that was her opinion on the matter. And there might be some truth to that. There's definitely is to the fact that if you don't know what you're doing, when you're handling Cara cards or Weegee board, eighties, easy to get yourself in a situation, you don't want people really becoming aware and more open minded to spiritual things. Yes. Yes. Nearly 70, 80 years,

Speaker 4: 2:04:39

Two dynamics. Right. And this is this, I think that was, was, it was just an awakening and it was totally counter to the way the religious establishment I had been talking for a long time. You don't want to try to cross the spiritual world. You don't want to try to contact the dead that's that's necromancy, that's evil. That's up the devil again. You'll see that as well. Slander and yeah. Try and tell people. Don't, don't, don't, don't some of it is dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, but they were warning against even believing that it was possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Listen, just, just, just believe me, believe me, believe me to observe and believe me. Yes, it is, right. Yeah. It is. It's just one of those things, things, and some people argue that is the definition of religion, that it is always doctrine and control and on faith alone. But that is not a, an adequate definition is that does not take into account things like Buddhism and stuff, where it is hands on. It is not a passive approach to religion. It is an active one. Where are you going to do results? And that's what all of them, the stuff we're talking about is where people, instead of being, I don't know how to put it being submitting to the will of whatever divinity might be out there instead they are going and finding it and doing it and manifesting it well. Yeah. And so that's, that's what needs to be said about that while all this was happening there, mesmerism was something that was still going around. Spiritualism was heavily influenced mesmerized them. And then all of this is not just in the United States, it's in the UK and Europe and other parts of the world to a lesser extent as well. Um, and yeah, Mesmer friends, Mesmer was somebody who basically he was, he was a scientific figure. A lot of what he created was pseudoscience, but a lot of it was the foundation for hypnotism. As we know it today, you're getting sleepy thing. I mean, that's pretty unrealistic. But what that is based on is mesmerism, which is a very specific type of ism that uses sleepwalking sort of like these hypnagogic States almost. And

Speaker 3: 2:07:37

Well,

Speaker 4: 2:07:39

The, here is a quote, the scientific interest in the claims of spiritualism resulted in the development of the field of psychical research. Somnambulism that is the word for this particular type of thing to some also exerted, a strong influence on early disciplines of psychology and psychiatry. Interestingly enough, esoteric ideas, pervade the work of many early figures in this field. Most notably Christophe young or August off. Yeah. Excuse me. Although with the rise of psychoanalysis and behaviorism in the 20th century, these disciplines distance themselves from esotericism also influenced by artificial somnambulism was the religion of new thought. Also also founded by the American mesmerist Phineas, B Quimby, who is lash room aging year to date in 66, which revolved around the concept of this might sound familiar mind over matter, believing that illness and other negative conditions could be cured through the power of beliefs. And at this 0.1, she mentioned, or note that LRH talked about both on the briefing course. Also it is noteworthy that this concept of meta belief comes up time and time again, and esoteric religions.

Speaker 3: 2:09:12

And you were schools of thought,

Speaker 4: 2:09:15

This is essentially the fundamental tenant of high magic romanticism and illusionism. Interesting. Yeah, it is. And this is, this is something even eating we see in modern, modern spiritual movements. I mean, this belief in belief is all that means that the power of belief is the most powerful tool you have. And that, that is what changes thing that whether or not there really is some, some Hocus Pocus magic stuff going around there doesn't need to be, because all you're doing when you're doing magic is changing your perception and or somebody else's. So that's the power of the mind. And that is I believe. And as far as I can assess something that heavily influenced out Ron Hubbard,

Speaker 3: 2:10:14

There are a lot of parallels there. And this was back when, in the 18 hundreds, roughly

Speaker 4: 2:10:19

This, you know, this started in the late 17 hundreds kind of, but like I really took off in the mid I some to a degree the early 18 hundreds, but the mid 1,820

Eddie Cairo: 2:10:35

1830s, when this really started coming in, you probably are, you know, about Christian scientists. I mean, that's where this comes from. This is just, they believe that the power of belief and faith alone could cure them. And that's where a lot of these faith healers have gotten that. So it doesn't just influence things that are considered to be novel and also influences Christian sets. It does. And this is, I guess you could call it as Moses. This was how these types of things go

Speaker 3: 2:11:13

In, in Scientology consideration is senior fiscal year numbers. Exactly the same thing.

Eddie Cairo: 2:11:19

It's exactly the same. And so I really don't know what else there is to say about that, but I do want to note that you will often hear as a, as a refutation or protest to, to Scientology the belief system, even existing, that, that this kind of thing, concerns that the mind or, or what some may deem hypnotism has no business in spirituality. The fact of the matter is it's been involved in spirituality for hundreds of years in a mainstream way and found in a non-mainstream way.

Speaker 3: 2:11:59

Hmm. It's a lot to take in. Yeah, it is what we're gonna call this, uh, end of the podcast one for now. We're we're we looking at time wise?

Eddie Cairo: 2:12:11

Gosh, let me see. Well, hold on. Yeah, that's pretty long since we're already so far in, and this is a long line, I guess now I'm kind of twice the length we wanted it to be. There is I can, I can probably do the rest of this really quick if you want me to

Speaker 3: 2:12:37

The greatest status on it and then get more in depth. Next time I do more in depth. Next time we get a lot of ground to cover.

Eddie Cairo: 2:12:43

We're not even, we're not even halfway done. We're more than halfway done with the outline, but with the whole history, we got a long way to go. So I'll briefly go over that. Uh, you know, we talked about him as Marizza and all that. Uh, I should mention that this was with the crossroads as with a lot of other practices and practices of mysticism and science, the way Mesmer and his followers saw it. And he discovered a revolutionary revolutionary way to communicate with the spirit world. I mean, you know, like I said, he was doing alchemy and stuff, and a lot of people either in the enlightenment or post enlightenment era who were scientists were messing

Speaker 4: 2:13:32

With alchemy and Western esotericism, right. To them, this was a science because it was trial and error. And so this was the thought that you could finally communicate in any active, scientific way with spirit beings, late 17 hundreds and all throughout the 1,907, when that new thought stuff, stuff,

Speaker 3: 2:14:01

This included

Speaker 4: 2:14:03

Revivalist Pentacostal hysteria, which is the mill U uh, that brought about many of the sex we have today, most notably the LDS church, but also

Speaker 3: 2:14:20

Things that are not as well,

Speaker 4: 2:14:21

Such as the shakers. The, I guess the most main stream manifestation of that is the concept of laying of hands, which was not always just a religious practice. It was secular as well.

Speaker 3: 2:14:37

And so this is, this is the type of stuff

Speaker 4: 2:14:40

I'm talking about. It just influences the culture and it permeates. That's just what happens. And even religions that have nothing to do with this with terrorism and might blatantly, blatantly disavow it as evil, still have practices leaking in whether they know it or not. So the next bit is that Isaac Newton himself doweled and alchemy alchemy was a major practice of esoteric. I mean, at the time they didn't have any idea what was going on. Like chemistry was not a refined science to them, making something out of another thing was magic. And so that may, that may be what is going on today. I use the example of cargo cults. Why do we use a pejorative term for people who have never seen a boat? They've never seen a boat bigger than going to canoe and this airplane crashes and brings them food and candy. They had never tasted before. And these things I've never seen it and a warm jackets to them. That's magic to them. That is a gift from the gods. Yes. And if something like that happened here, who's to say we wouldn't react any differently,

Speaker 3: 2:16:06

The balance in society.

Speaker 4: 2:16:08

Yeah, I think so. So I'll go over this quickly. Uh, we can get more in depth into what these things mean next time, but at the timeline goes like this going backwards, early 16 hundreds organized Rosa Crucian ism comes about the earliest confirmed Masonic documents. This next thing, cause they're not the same thing, dates to wrestling around 1400, but a much earlier and simpler form is practice in the medieval UK around nine 30, a D masonry as with other esoteric sets, includes belief in a Supreme being and stuff,

Speaker 3: 2:16:53

Which, which we have as the dynamic.

Speaker 4: 2:16:55

Yes, yes we do. And this is something that is not unique to Freemasonry Freemasonry like anything, Oh, it's just another splinter in this religious family tree. And that, that comes up in reservations. The Leymah hermeticism, it comes up, the Supreme being is what you see. And I, I really want to point out that the, the we'll talk about the Qubole is neck next time. But when you get in to the Supreme being stuff, you will find out that they're talking about a transcendent, uh, in intangible omnipresent, God, that is synonymous with none other but infinity. So these are influences that's familiar. Yeah, it does. These are influences that are almost a nibble.

Speaker 3: 2:18:04

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 2:18:04

And the next bit is that hermeticism an ancient form of esotericism that can be traced back to the[inaudible] and the turn of the common era only experienced a revival in the 13 hundreds describes a transcendent God, like I said, synonymous with infinity, this is something you see,

Speaker 3: 2:18:31

This is just[inaudible],

Speaker 4: 2:18:34

It's almost ridiculous at this point to even go in and out, it seems silly or comical, but here it is,

Speaker 3: 2:18:41

It would seem that being that, that initial common thread, that people were highly highly in agreement with this.

Speaker 4: 2:18:52

And then we'll get into Dallas and next time too, because very similar thing there, but this is not just Western. This is not just European. This is global for this type of thing. And it's, it's not, exhaustedly global, like every single religion, of course not. But you'll see this type of thing all over the world. Yes, yes it is. And there's a great book that talks about, I think it's called blue, the secret teachings of all ages by may only be hall and that a wonderful

Eddie Cairo: 2:19:28

Place to get started. If you're curious about the sort of thing I should talk about next time, more in depth as above, so below the concept that, that there are microcosms and macrocosms also called fractals that anything that is one way and a microscopic sense, it's that way above in a bigger sense to like the larger arc. Yeah. It's like, what is the word for it? Quali? No, not Bali. Pantheism. Theism. Yeah. Where you see your veins look like river bins look like lightning strikes as above so below or that. And like we were talking about the church using it. It's sacred data for evil, just like the Illuminati, just like the Catholic church, just like bunch of different things in history as above. So,

Speaker 3: 2:20:32

And that also follows in line with the Fibonacci sequence, the golden ratio, you know, hurricanes looking the same thing as tornadoes looking the same thing as a galaxy, as a leaf, as it is the strong market trends in the brain and blood. So these and these concepts are, are, are, are taken and used in different areas for, for different things.

Eddie Cairo: 2:20:55

Yeah, absolutely true. And we need to get into this more next time and next time I want to not dominate the conversation. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 2:21:05

No, that's totally fine.

Eddie Cairo: 2:21:08

Uh, I, I'm sorry, if you feel I've done that. I, uh, I don't know how else to describe these sort of things, but, but, but hemorrhage information about it.

Speaker 3: 2:21:20

Yeah. Well, it's a huge topic as is Scientology itself. And this is why these, these, these, these root causes these derivatives

Eddie Cairo: 2:21:30

That's exactly correct. And it is seen as a negative thing often, like, uh, you know, uh, average stolen. But no, like I said, if it's, if you can mind multiple ideas, it becomes a new idea. Just combining ingredients in the kitchen to make a new dish doesn't mean you have, uh, violated copyright, uh, somebodies recipe,

Speaker 3: 2:21:56

Right. It's a new recipe.

Eddie Cairo: 2:21:58

So it's that sort of thing. I bet. On the other hand, you'll also hear, well, you just made it up. So it's sort of like, cannot win that argument. Right. You just can't. So either way, we're going to skip back a bit next time. And there's a, we have to unfortunately grappled with the fact then the Ella dark ages, like the straight dark ages, uh, contrary to popular belief called. So only because of our lack of information on them, where they were not well documented. They're in the dark. Yeah. Uh, we do have some, some historical events, but we don't know as much about those times as we do others. So there's not a lot there. The dark ages, of course, like the modern definition were dark and crazy suppressive. So you couldn't, you couldn't do things that, that strayed from the narrative, you couldn't do that back then. You just had to know your place basically. So that's familiar to me. Yeah, it does. But we'll talk about Islamic mysticism. We'll get more in depth in Christian Gnosticism and his outgrowths. Uh, I want to talk about money shadism and all of that stuff. And oddly enough, how it relates to Scientology. I got a good one. Then I will mention Kabbalah. Uh, we'll get more into perennialism. Yeah. Oh, all the tail. So all again, did it, uh, and pre-flood societies, we'll talk about all that fun stuff. It's going to sound like, Oh yeah, it's going to sound like, like, uh, just conspiracies that don't have any base, but there is a lot to support this and especially today. Yeah. There is, we are constantly finding out information that changes the narrative that has been around in science for a while. And unfortunately, that field is not immune to bias. And how do I put it that like negative intention either. Right. So talk about that and morally Eastern stuff as well, because that has a huge influence on Scientology so much. So that Scientology is often classified as new age. So that's it. Alright. Well, we really appreciate you listening to our podcast. We sorry this one went on so long. You can visit our website@ ao-gp.org. That's The Advanced Organization the Great Plains. You can find everything out about us there and you can find out about independent Scientology, uh, for myself, Jonathan Burke, and I'm Eddie Cairo.[inaudible].