Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE10EP9 - The Andy Nolch Interview Series - Part III
An interview from 2017 - Can the theta universe truly bend time and space in ways we can't even imagine? Listen as we explore the fascinating world of Scientology, where the lines between past lives, reincarnation, and spiritual identity blur in unexpected ways. Our episode kicks off with a tantalizing teaser about a young Scientologist, Wing Angel, who claims to have returned from a past life to reclaim his certificates. This serves as a launching point for a deeper discussion on how time and reincarnation are perceived within the framework of Scientology, drawing connections to Einstein’s theory of relativity and Bob Lazar’s enigmatic tales of Area 51.
Our guest, Jonathan Burke, joins us to discuss the intricate relationship between intelligence and problem-solving, as seen through the lens of Scientology. Together, we explore the intriguing Mandela Effect, collective consciousness, and their potential connections to spiritual practices. This episode also ventures into the realm of psychic warfare and societal influences, pondering the impact of media manipulation and the potential for advanced mental techniques to shape our reality. The conversation touches on the challenges faced by independent Scientologists and the necessity of unity and collaboration to preserve the teachings outside the Church.
Dive with us into a world where the boundaries between technology, spirituality, and human consciousness are not only questioned but explored in depth. From the legacy of L. Ron Hubbard and the exploration of past lives to the secretive practices and mind control theories surrounding Scientology, this episode offers a comprehensive look at the enigmatic beliefs that captivate both adherents and critics alike. Whether you're a skeptic or a seeker, prepare to have your perceptions challenged and your curiosity ignited in this thought-provoking journey through the mind-bending universe of Scientology.
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Are you there, John? I am Thank you for having me Andy. Great Good, you ready for part three. You excited. I've got a lot of questions for you. I'm ready. There's a lot. All right, just quickly I'll ask you about some past life stuff, because something I don't understand is it seems like a ton of Scientologists died in 1963 or something and then reincarnated. What do you think of that?
Speaker 2:I've never heard that myself as far as 1963.
Speaker 1:Well, not that specific year, but it's just like. The one thing that I found very surprising since I got into Scientology is the amount of people who were like, yeah, I was into it last lifetime and they seem to have died sometime in the 60s and then been born again. And it's just like to me, mathematically it's not making any sense, like as in there was no great wave of mass killing off of Scientologists in the 60s or something. How come there's all these reincarnated Sios walking around these days?
Speaker 2:well, I guess it would. The first question I'd have to ask is how old are they, and is it feasibly possible for them to have died in the 60s and then be an adult now, or or? I guess you know, I guess you could be, you could have gone and sat on a mountaintop for a couple of decades, or something like that. But I think one of the things that needs to be explained to people from the viewpoint of not necessarily an OT I guess it could be an OT viewpoint but time in the physical universe and no time in the theta universe are the constants. It would be sort of like oh, I don't know, of East Australia and then you got into the East Australian current and things sped up because you were in this current that's going up the eastern side of Australia.
Speaker 2:That would be a prime example of what it's like to be in the physical universe and then be in the theta universe. You can blip over into the theta universe. Let's say you drop the body, and when you drop the body and you're no longer sticking your toe into the physical universe, time, as you know it stops, but it's actually going a lot faster in the physical universe. So let's say you drop the body in 1963, you left the physical universe and didn't have anything to do with it per se, and we're just a Thetan in the Theta universe and you go all right. To you it seems like I don't know a second or a few minutes or whatever, and then it's been maybe a couple of decades that you come back because they're not constants next to each other.
Speaker 2:The theta universe has no time. So, uh, that's something that that needs to be explained to people because it is a factor, um, and if a Thetan isn't ready for that, uh, they could drop the body in 1920 and they come back and all of a sudden they're picking up a body in 1983. I mean those, those things happen and you run into that sort of thing in session where there isn't a constant of time for a being, because the theta universe isn't a physical universe, it isn't made up of, uh, points of view and anchor points and things like that and mess moving around, mess going around a star and all this stuff. It's a completely different universe, so the rules don't apply the same. So I don't find it surprising that people come back. I don't know if you've ever heard the story of Wing Angel. Does that name ring a bell?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Wing Angel. Pat Krennic could tell you who Wing Angel was because Pat's been around since 1952. And it was actually at one point in time it was in the OEC vols and Wing Angel was a very well-known Scientologist in the late 50s and 1960s, and don't quote me on the years on this a very well-known Scientologist in the late 50s and 1960s, and don't quote me on the years on this, and I'm sure somebody will post it on Facebook a week from now and say, well, this is when it happened. Anyway, wing Angel was a well-known, very trained, savvy OT Scientologist and he dropped the body and about four or five years later, um, this five-year-old boy walks up the washington dc org steps, walks in the door sort of swaggering walks up to the receptionist and says I'm wing angel and I'd like my certificates back yeah, I've heard about this, yeah, yeah this is a true story I've heard, I've heard a similar story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, um, like, a 14 year old taiwanese kid like went up to the seahawk and was like I'm reporting back in for duty because you know seahawk is supposed to come back. Um, but why, why was it? What was the word? Wing angel? Was that like a nickname that he had in his past life, or something?
Speaker 2:Well, that was his name in the life prior to the new one that he had gotten.
Speaker 1:But who has the name wing angel?
Speaker 2:It's a really wacky name, it's a very odd name, but it's also a very distinct name and that was his name. That his parents gave him was first name wing, last name angel. And so did they.
Speaker 2:His parents gave him was first name wing, last name angel and so did they did they actually find the pc folders for a wing angel and all that sort of stuff yeah, yeah, he got his certs back and everything and, um, from what I understand, his parents were cool with it. I don't know what happened to him after that. Uh, but it is a true story. I did know him in 56, around the time that I went clear on one of the ACC's, and he was very, very much involved in Scientology in the formative days in the late 50s and early 60s.
Speaker 1:So when did this wing angel, as a young kid, walk into the org? What year was that?
Speaker 2:I, that's what I was saying. I don't recall the actual dates anymore. I all I know is that when I read about it, uh, they were at one point still in the green and white vols back in probably the late 80s, early 90s, before there was a severe cleaning of the house of any of the names of people that were involved in the original founding organizations, like Red Sharp or Mary Sue. All those names have been deleted from the briefing course lectures and all the OEC vaults long ago. Wing Angel was one of those people.
Speaker 1:Was Wing Angel? Was his name actually mentioned in any of the thingos? Yeah, oh so he was a real important founder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was one of the main guys that worked I believe worked in DC Org at the time.
Speaker 1:Like top old-timers is probably a good word to call him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, top old-timers. I mean you could ask some guys you know that are still around. Like I said, like Pat Krennic could tell you, parashots probably could tell you. Candy Swanson might be able to tell you a little bit more about him. But you know a lot of the original old timers. There aren't many left.
Speaker 1:So you reckon he came back in the late 80s or something like that.
Speaker 2:No, he came back in the mid 60s. It wasn't.
Speaker 1:Well, again, this is another situation where I'm saying, where it's like, what the hell's going on? What do you mean? Well, as in, it's like all these people like it seems like a lot of SIOs, old-timers, died around 1960, reincarnated and came back, and whether they popped in in the 70s or the 80s or the 90s or the 2000s, it just seems to be so many of them must have died around 1960.
Speaker 2:Well, I couldn't really say. I mean just from an auditor's standpoint, I haven't audited people in that age bracket really at all. People in that age bracket really at all. I've audited people that died in the late 60s or 70s quite a bit. I died in 67 and then picked up a body the next year in 68. People drop bodies. For me that's evidence that time. You know, I mean people drop bodies. I don't think it has anything to do with factories.
Speaker 1:But for me that's evidence that time in the Theta universe or whatever doesn't run in a linear fashion, Because then statistics would have. I just feel like there would have been all these reports about all these. I don't know, it's just, it doesn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? It's just, it doesn't make sense. Do you know what I mean? Like as in you come across heaps of people who are old-time sires, who died, yet I don't hear any reports about a mass killing off of old-time sires in the early 60s.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't really have an explanation for it other than the the ab and flow of the physical universe. Uh, and the theta universe are mysterious things and you run into interesting phenomena like that from time to time. That's that's the only thing I could say about that is. It's more of an observation than anything so we, we just don't understand well.
Speaker 1:either either reincarnation doesn't exist or we don't understand Well, either reincarnation doesn't exist or we don't understand how time works outside of current simple understanding.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that that's the biggest factor. Scientology deals with the physical universe and the thetans that are in the physical universe and the thetans that are in the physical universe. It doesn't necessarily deal with the thetans that are in the theta universe as much so therefore, there isn't as much documentation or valid data on it. What I was telling you earlier, that's something I've never had any other Scientologist tell me before and I've never even had a conversation, even with other ot8s or above, about it.
Speaker 2:But that's that's been my own, my own observation and knowingness, since doing the ot levels that you're dealing with, it's sort of like two, two different. Uh, what do they call those? Not escalators, but when you're in the in an airport and you have the two moving floors that are like escalators, but they're on one level only and one's going a lot faster than the other. The theta universe is timeless because it doesn't involve the physical universe. The physical universe revolves around planets going around suns and electrons going around you, you know, in atoms and all this stuff, and you don't have that in the theta universe. So it's, it's, it's a there-ness, it's there, but it's nowhere at the same time, because there's no there, there's no anchor point.
Speaker 2:So therefore, there is no time, it's timeless yeah so what might seem to a thetan to be a couple of seconds could be a couple of decades in the physical universe.
Speaker 1:For as an extreme, as an example, yeah, because, but also, um, I think time goes at different speed on different planets, so even within the physical universe. I think time is totally trippy, and just what the hell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you heard that?
Speaker 1:What's that? Have you heard that time goes at different speeds on different planets, or something?
Speaker 2:And yeah, Well, yeah, I mean, you know, if you just look at Einstein's theory of relativity and gravity and gravity affects time space, and gravity and gravity affects time space and what you know like, for example, uh, what's what's faster than the speed of light?
Speaker 1:um, these apparently ufo craft, but I don't think that they actually travel. That's the thing I think they they hack into the universe and somehow just pop and appear in certain places well, that's the point.
Speaker 2:The point is is what's faster than light? Nothing, gravity oh really yeah, gravity is instantaneous gravity is instantaneous, wow yeah, so that's why these, these, these starcraft use gravity, or they interpret gravity or create gravity yeah, because they're anti-gravity craft or something yeah, well, I mean, if you watch the, uh, oh, what's his name?
Speaker 2:the guy that used to work at area 51, just forgot bob lazar, bob lazar, you watch his videos, he gives the best explanation of how, at least uh, the zeta reticuli craft work, in that it's sort of a focusing of gravity, and if you uh focus in on a particular star and it's gravity, it's sort of like going downhill towards that star and you amplify it and then there you are and you're going faster than speed of light because you're you're creating gravity which deforms the physical universe, so to speak.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's how these guys get around as quick as they do, relatively speaking, to the speed of light at least yeah, because it's funny, because it's like, yeah, something can't go faster than this, like something can't go faster than the speed of light, because it's not possible, right, but these craft, they're not traveling that distance. They're doing this shifty clever thing, so it's like they're beating the speed of light, but they're not really.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean well, yeah, they're kind of circumventing the speed of light by tricking the physical universe using gravity or mocking gravity up instead of dealing with all the surrounding different types of gravity whether it's a star or whether it's a planet, for example, doesn't create gravity. It's because of the star that it's near. That's what's creating the gravity. I can neither confirm or deny that, but it rings sort of true because it's just like electricity on planet Earth.
Speaker 1:We don't know why electricity works, we just know that it does to this day Did Einstein know that gravity travels faster than the speed of light?
Speaker 2:I think he had some ideas on it but he passed away sooner than he could actually get that into some sort of unified form, I mean as far as his uh theory of relativity goes. But you know, the the faster you go, the greater the mass increases of the body. That's going fast. So that's an issue if you're going to try and go beyond the speed of light. Um, but you know, they just recently confirmed in the last couple of weeks that gravity does travel in waves, that they actually picked up on one of said. And it's also uh, a way to travel. If you're going to use a starship, that's going to travel faster than the speed of light, because now they know that you can create a gravity wave well, it's interesting celestial objects do that and we're just.
Speaker 2:We just saw a gravity wave go through earth from a several billion I don't know trillion miles away.
Speaker 1:It was a long time ago um, what's interesting as well as as you go, as you travel, faster time slows down, so time is just such a trippy thing right right because it's the.
Speaker 2:All of these things are interwoven and you know, like like lrh says, in the axioms, and there are universes. You find out very quickly on, especially on the upper ot levels, that there are other universes and you are aware of them, you become aware of them and that some of the things that are part of your case or part of the composite case, are existing in them.
Speaker 1:Now hold on a second. Are you? Are you talking about? There are other dimensions, or there are other things that you just can't perceive, right right, or something totally in a whole other universe.
Speaker 2:I would have to say yes to both of those. Yeah, to answer that question.
Speaker 1:It's so trippy because there's this thing that's like when you hear about other universes you just think, well, hold on a second, it's all right here right now. It's just that you've only got the five senses that can perceive them, so I don't know if you can call them other universes. I think it's just. You know what I mean. I think it's just maybe we just don't have enough perceptions.
Speaker 2:Well, lrh back in the mid-s was talking, talking about. He knew he had to get dianetics published because he knew there was another guy out there named l ron hubbard who was working on the same book and he needed to get the book out before this other l ron hubbard got it out, which he came to realize was in what we would now call a parallel universe. It wasn't in this universe, but it was a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right. But he had become aware of the fact that one of his alternates was working on something similar or exactly the same. I mean, he talks about it in a couple of lectures.
Speaker 1:So why was he concerned about competing with him or something like that?
Speaker 2:Because they had separate universes. Well, at the time he wasn't aware that it was a different universe oh, so he thought.
Speaker 1:He thought it might have been in in this universe or something, and so he was trying to compete with himself right.
Speaker 2:So he was concerned that he was. There was another guy out there that was doing the same thing and as he continued to get processing, he came to realize that it was, for lack of a better expression, a universe to the left or universe to the right, which would be a very poor example of it. But it gives you know, it gives the idea that it was not too far from our own universe, that this was going on and he was aware of it.
Speaker 1:This so this sort of stuff is so deep and so trippy, but there's evidence for it and and there's a lot of, I think, scientists that are into like looking into parallel universes and stuff, and it's just, it's areas that I just don't even want to go near because it's so deep. But I've had things happen to me that are quite odd, that have made me thought hold on a second. Have I gone into some sort of parallel universe and stuff? And people talk about these sorts of things. Like one time I had a TV remote on the coffee table in front of me and it suddenly wasn't there and I was like I was looking where it usually is and it wasn't there. I was like what the hell?
Speaker 1:And I felt, felt around for a bit and I was aware of this whole parallel universe where sometimes you you pop out of your current universe and you go into the parallel one and you don't notice, except for one odd change, and so like I'd heard about this idea and so I thought, well, I'll just wait and see if it pops back or something, if it comes back, and then, like the next day, suddenly it just came back and and it was, it was where it was supposed to be and I was like what the hell? And I asked, uh, people in the house, you know, if they'd moved it, the remote, and put it back, and they hadn't like it literally just bizarrely disappeared. And the only thing I can think of this is this parallel universe thing, because I've heard other people talk about it and they would say stuff like they would walk out of their house and, um, there would suddenly be a tree where there never used to be a tree, like on the street, and they'll be like what?
Speaker 1:the hell, there never used to be a tree there and then, like a week later, suddenly the tree will be gone and there'll be no evidence that the tree was ever pulled away. It was just like the tree was suddenly gone and it was like evidence of the parallel universe. And since I've gone to scientology I've had a fair few experiences where suddenly I'm like looking and I'm like what the hell? I never knew there was a door there. There never was a door, there, never used to be a door there. And I was like you know, you don't know what to do. You don't need to think is my memory just bad or what, but you're just like what the hell? And then you hear about the mandela effect and you're like what the hell?
Speaker 2:like it's just so trippy I knew where we were heading towards that, so I'm prepared. As far as the Mandela effect goes, I think that that would be as far as a symbol or a term. That would be one way to describe a parallel or alternate universe or something like that. But I think in a lot of the cases not all, but a lot of the cases the mandala or mandela effect is a bit of what lrh would call uh dub in, and it's a group think type of a thing where, uh, what was his name? The, what was it? The the comedian, the black comedian, was in a movie as a. What was his name? Eddie murphy? No, it was. It was uh dang it. He's a one of the taller black comedians and he this is one of the Mandela effects, richard Pryor or something.
Speaker 2:It was sort of like an Arabian name that he gave himself. I'm trying to think.
Speaker 1:Dave Chappelle or something no.
Speaker 2:Well anyway. So this was one of the things that he never did in this movie, where he played Aladdin was what he was supposed to play and he never played Aladdin, but I really oh yeah, the Kazam guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's. That's one of those things, but I I don't think that it's as broad sweeping because it's a lot of the Mandela effect. Stuff is in pop culture and I don't think I think that that should be discounted heavily. And on a more individual by individual basis, I think you'll find things that, like you're talking about, like there was a door there, there was a tree there. I mean, you know you're, you're looking in these in these sorts of ways. You're looking in these sorts of ways.
Speaker 2:You're looking at things from a viewpoint of symbology, because when one goes up the OT levels, for example, after a while words get in the way and you stop using words in session. You don't need to use words in session because you can convey concepts across to what it is that you're auditing much faster without using the via of a symbol like the letter s that is next to five other letters that make up another symbol. That is a word that represents a concept that then and maybe has five or eight or 20 or 30 definitions or whatever. So when you step away from the symbology of things, then you start to open yourself up to perceptions that you would not normally have because you're stepping away from the physical universe. This is what happens in the OT levels. Naturally, I think that some people do do this. I could say, you know, like swamis, for example, and stuff like that you know would be other prime examples, or uh, monks in tibet, that sort of a thing they step away from looking at everything from a symbolic viewpoint and they start to work in, in concepts of thought. And when you do that, then you start to become aware of an awful lot of things because you're using all of these vias that consist of the physical universe, that keep you ensconced in the physical universe. So that's why I say I think a lot of the pop culture stuff you'd be better off when I say you, the royal, you'd be better off when I say you, the royal, you would be better off discounting and just taking individual, basis by basis, type things.
Speaker 2:Because when you get into the groupthink thing on the internet and everything, it's a little bit more of a dicey proposition. There's a website called Half Past Time, a website called half past time, and what they do is they have a bunch of web crawlers and what they do is they crawl the web for all these keywords and all of these concepts and everything and they basically take the internet as one reactive mind and they make predictions based off of what the group think is on the internet and they can say basically, looking at it from a prophecy type of viewpoint, that something's going to happen at this time in this place, based off of what, what, what people are talking about yeah, I've heard about this like where where google or something is trying to find out, like the mind of god or something, where they do this, where they have all the all the data from all the computers, from everyone, and they can just predict things and just I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's just so deep yeah, that's what the collective there's another. Another prime example of this would be there's a random it was a random number generator that was was being monitored in England at one of the major colleges and this random number generator started generating numbers in a different way, randomly, when 9-11 occurred.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, hold on a second, go back to what you're saying before that and try and be quick, because this is just such a deep topic.
Speaker 2:Well, the point I'm trying to make is about the Half Past Time website, is? It's a really neat project, but the thing is is that you're looking at this information on the internet through individuals who all have reactive minds, who have composite cases with reactive minds, so it would be sort of like adding another number to the equation. That would always give you an incorrect sum when you added up the equation or whatever the value was that you were trying to get, whether it was an algorithm or whatever because you're dealing with reactive minds. And then you're getting into this agreement, this groupthink, and whether it's groupthink or whether it's individuals who no longer have their own reactive minds and are way past OT, umpty-ump or whatever, you're going to get two different equations. You're going to get two different sums, because you're looking at something where you have a bunch of reactive minds postulating something.
Speaker 2:Now, that doesn't mean that they can't postulate it.
Speaker 2:It just means that they might get a different result than those who are more pro-survival or have a different viewpoint Maybe it's not pro-survival or have a different viewpoint, maybe it's not pro-survival.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that OTs necessarily always postulate pro-survival things and I'm not saying that they do or they don't.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying for the sake of the conversation.
Speaker 2:So basically what I'm trying to say is that when you see these large collective data sets from the internet, like half past time uses, you're getting a knee-jerk reaction to a stimulus response uh, assimilation of group think whereas if you were doing it with a million and a half ots or something like that, you might see an entirely different result of what the perception was that was going to happen in the future.
Speaker 2:So it would be very interesting to see that if you gathered all of the OTs on the planet, whether they'd done Scientology or not but were still OT which they are and you got them all in the same room and they were all perceiving at the same time and postulating whether they would be perceiving the same things that I don't know. Probably three and a half billion people on the internet were perceiving that might be coming in the future. It would be a very interesting experiment because I think it would get drastically different results. That's basically what I'm trying to say is, because we create our own reality, that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be the reality that we don't want, which is what we generally get as a whole in the population on planet Earth, and we need to change that. That's what Scientology is all about.
Speaker 1:Oh man, this is just such a deep topic. I don't know how we got onto this whole non-Scientology sort of related stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to get off on a lefty no no, no, I mean it needs to happen to properly handle things. You need to go off. It's just something you know. You can do a whole podcast on one of these things. It's so deep. But I'm pretty damn certain the Mandela effect's going on. Have you seen the video from me that I did on the Kink where I was interviewing people on the street about it?
Speaker 2:A little bit of it. Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there's all these Aussies that think that America used to have 52 states and it's like what the hell? And I looked it up two years ago or two and a half years ago. I specifically looked it up, how many states America has, and I remember locking into my mind that it was above 50. It was like 51, 52, 53, in that range Above 50. It was locked in my mind. I was like it's above 50. And then suddenly I found out America has 50 states and I'm like what the hell is going on? It's so bizarre, it's just so bizarre. And then I asked people on the street how many states does America have? And on average, most people thought it was 52. And you're like what the hell? And most people think it's mirror, mirror on the wall. Who's the fairest of them all? It's so bizarre, yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think it's parallel universes, I think huh, I think a little bit of that is misinterpretation, because the united states has 50 states and then has puerto rico and guam. Now, for us, we know that it's 50 states because we're indoctrinated to think that when we're in elementary school that we have 50 states.
Speaker 1:I know but I looked it up on Wikipedia how many thingos just recently, two and a half years ago, and recently looked it up on Wikipedia now it says 50 states. And so that's where I'm. So and I remember sex in the city and I specifically remember, around 2010 or something, it started becoming sex and the city and I was just like huh, huh. And then I remember watching the darth vader movie and specifically waiting for that famous line where it says, luke, I am your father and you know. It didn't come and I was just like I was. I don't know, but I felt I feel like I. I before I even found out about the mandelma effect. I felt like I was. I went into, know, but I felt I feel like I, I before I even found out about the mandelma effect. I felt like I was. I went into some sort of bizarro world, like around 2010 or something, where things were just odd and not quite the same. You know what I mean. And then, yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I can say for a fact without reservation that that's what the character said in the movie when I saw it in 19. Let's see, that would have been 1980, I believe it was that Empire came out. He did say Luke, I am your father.
Speaker 1:See how funny it is. It's just like because I think it's a parallel universes thing or something, but I guess maybe there's been a lot of changes, but people are only aware of the movie line changes because it's a pop culture thing, but they're. I mean, I know that I had something happen with um, with speed humps. That was near my house where they suddenly, uh, they there was like three, and then now they're suddenly one, and I was like what the hell happened to the other two speed humps and they hadn't been removed or anything, and it was just bizarre. And then I had a neighbor who was Japanese and then then Chinese and then went, switched back to being Japanese, and I was like what the hell? And there there's, there's people who talk about this Mandela effect where, um, where it changes, then it changes back. So so I mean, it's just so interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, like you said, I don't think that it is entirely impossible that those things happen, but I will say that those things don't happen near as much the longer you go up the bridge and the further you go up the bridge near as much the longer you go up the bridge and the further you go up the bridge. Yeah, because you have no explanation for it, but that's been my, my observation with myself and other people yeah, um, can you finish explaining this?
Speaker 1:um, the winged was it a winged angel person? So so the winged angel person said enough information about their past life that they the staff there were like okay, this is definitely the person, right yeah, they sent some questions and he answered the questions correctly.
Speaker 2:You know things that only wing angel would know, and they knew wing angel. But the thing is is that what you run into with people on the internet, you run into with people in life and things like that, is that they're viewing their, their everything about their existence is from their camera's point of view their body, their two eyes, and that's that's how they look at it. And they're looking at everything from the viewpoint of symbols and they are a symbol and their symbol says that their experience is this and that all these things represent x, y and z. But the thing is is that when you find out, when you audit somebody, it's a little trippy for people because they they maybe they catch a glimpse from their point of view at the time that their hand is masculine, or they catch a glimpse of themselves on something metallic or in a mirror and they know it's them. They're looking at themselves, but they're, they're driving a mercedes instead of a lexus, you know, or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's when I use that as an analog to their body. It's not the same thing and you have to get people outside of that viewpoint of the physical universe. You have not only have to get them out of their head, you have to get them out of the viewpoint of symbols in general, whether it's their body, or if it's male or female. I mean, it blows my mind how many people think about, uh, women in a different way, who are men, who are scientologists, and women scientologists who think of men in a different way, when the fact of the matter is is we're all thetans, we're just driving a different way. When the fact of the matter is is we're all Phaetons, we're just driving a different car.
Speaker 2:So you know, in the wing angel situation it was that he was in a five-year-old body and he walks up the steps and he speaks perfectly good English and from the account that I had heard of somebody who was there, he even sort of talked like he did last lifetime even though he was five years old. So we still had the valence to a certain degree. They asked him a few questions and he was auditing the next day was he auditing?
Speaker 2:someone else or was he in session?
Speaker 1:yes, yes, no, what. What was that? So he was auditing someone else? Yeah, he was auditing someone else he wanted to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is scientology.
Speaker 1:This is what scientology real scientology can do the proper old timer one, not like the whole corporate church, one from the 90s, yeah the non-perverted version geez, it's so deep.
Speaker 1:It's so deep. I remember when I spoke to, oh, I saw some guy and he was about my age but he had the valence of an old Englishman and it was really interesting. And then I found out that he was getting into Freemasonry and I was just like I bet you he was like in 1930 or whatever, some old Englishman that was a Freemason Englishman that was a Freemason and he has no idea about his past life but he still has the beingness. And so because it's very odd for a 22-year-old to like walk into a Freemasonry center and stuff like that, and so he just obviously was just gravitated towards it because he was like you know, I remember or whatever, but it was just I was looking at him, thinking the way he was acting was just like what is this? Am I looking? I'm not, you know, it's just funny.
Speaker 2:It's just like it's so evidence for past life yeah, well, you know, like lrh says the, the one way to to get somebody, when they're about to drop the body, so that they don't go to, uh, what he refers to as the between lives areas, you get them to go to some place that they really like, some place they really want to be, and they go there instead of going to the mixing, the mix master machine and throwing everything back up so that they come back down and they don't know who they are, and then you have to straighten them out with the lower bridge and all that stuff. Um, you know, that's what you need to do when somebody's getting ready to drop the body is tell them to go to some place that they really like, and they'll go there instead and kind of make it a command for them, and then they don't end up running into this, this, uh, last lifetime amnesia, and they'll even carry along their earlier valence. I've seen it several times.
Speaker 1:So this is because I heard there was something like when a PSY is passing away, you get advice from the CS or whatever on what to do. Is this basically what the CS would say to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the R factor.
Speaker 1:That's the assist or something. Is it called an assist? It's not really an assist.
Speaker 2:It's just an R factor, that this is what you need to do, is you need to, like you know, go to a maybe it was a state park that they liked, or something like that, because of the color of the leaves in the fall, or you know a place that really made them happy, that they were very fond of, or something. Because that's what you're trying to do, is you're trying to short circuit the command to return to, uh, one of the implant stations. Yeah, that basically scrambles you up and then throws you back down here, and here you are.
Speaker 1:So um, so deep. When you're talking about when we're going into the whole mandela effects thing, my mind was kind of exploding because I was just like, like all these things, I want to say it's just like, uh, it's just so funny, um, so, so what is that? Is that what, um, all sires should do, like speak to a good CS when they're getting old?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, if you just understand the concepts, you don't even need to speak to a CS, because good CSs are hard to come by outside of the church.
Speaker 1:Well, where's the policy on this?
Speaker 2:It was in a lecture, I believe on the briefing course that LRH talks about it. I don't remember what the number of it was or anything, but you know it was just sort of an off the cuff thing, because the LRH did a lot of that sort of thing on the briefing course lectures especially. You know that you're just trying to put something in front of the command that says return back to home base and get put in the spinner. Basically that's all you're trying to do.
Speaker 1:So the Satan goes to a location that they admire and then do they just go to a hospital or something to pick up a new baby body or what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you kind of short circuit, the between lives area, and then you can go pick up another body. I mean, you know, from an ot perspective, you know, do you really want to pick up another body? And if you do, choose wisely, because you know that that choice sets off a series of unfortunate events, or a series of fortunate events, um, because not shortly after you tend to start taking on other valences unless you're in really really good shape and you can hold everything together and and that's tough to do for five, six, seven, eight years until you can really gather your wits. That's seven, eight years is a long time.
Speaker 1:So you mean like eight years of growing up as a little kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because as a little kid, you're not at cause at all, you're so much at effect. You tend to take on agreements and viewpoints and beliefs, and then you take on a valence a valence that's the weaker valence, because it gets the most attention. And down the slippery slope you go and before you need it, oh man, there's so many things.
Speaker 1:It's just oh Okay, can I say something? So what are you planning on doing when you get old?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm kind of sitting on the fence on the whole thing right now. Everything is relative that's one of my favorite expressions because my viewpoint now at 49 might be entirely different than my viewpoint at 79 or 69 or 59 or whatever, depending upon what I've caused myself to experience or not experience. If I were to say what I was going to do now, I'd probably sit things out for a little while and, uh, you know, just kind of wait and see what happens and see if I can find some of my old friends and give give it a one hell of a try to try and get off of the planet, though I don't know I would would succeed, because it's a prison planet. Oh, man.
Speaker 1:So, um, do you think you could do more help in spirit form, because I'm just wondering if lrh is in spirit form, because I've heard of that sort of rumor in all fairness I can't say one way or the other.
Speaker 2:If I could, if I would be of more use or not, because I I couldn't really say what the abilities would be without a body, I would think they would be a lot better because the body is sort of like a crappy insulator to thetan's abilities. It really dumbs down and ot's perception and everything like that, because it's it's interference for the thetan. So it might be better. I don't know, I don't. I really I really couldn't say, I could only hypothesize, to be fair where do you think lh is?
Speaker 1:I think he's off playing a far different game so do you think he's he's moved on, or do you think he's handling problems from that are far away, that have been coming to earth affecting us?
Speaker 2:I would have to say that I think that for as much as he did and LRH's solution to being and going OT was riding up his hats and of anybody I know on this planet, he would be the number one guy that I would say did the best job of riding up his hats, because when you ride up your hat you're basically doing power change and so you can kind of as is that whole physical universe thing and all of the symbols that go along with it, all of the significances, all of the charge and everything else.
Speaker 2:The significance is all of the charge and everything else. I I don't know of anybody else that's come anywhere remotely capitalized parentheses, caps, 36 point font better than lrh on that stuff. So I think he's done his part, greater than anybody else has done on this line, and he might be helping things from a different angle, but playing a game that's different, that's more aesthetic I mean, he was an artist in many forms and my perception of it is that that's what's going on is that he's just playing a different game from a different angle. For us to sit and think, well, when's he going to come back and fix this mess? I think that's an extremely and incredibly irresponsible viewpoint for any Scientologist to take, because it's not his job, it's our job.
Speaker 1:I know, but here's the problem though, we get enlightened and all that sort of stuff, and then if we just keep on dropping the body and then effing off, then it's just like the Earth is just going to continue being a mess, because Ray Robles I heard him mention that he's not planning on coming back and it's like, oh no, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that that perspective is good and I know that as far as lineage goes, it wasn't just drop the body, pick up another one. Live that life. Drop the body, pick up another one. Uh, you know, reach and withdraw is a really really good process, both on the physical universe and the theta universe. And to reach and withdraw, when you drop the body and kind of get exterior to things, especially if you've gotten a lot of auditing, uh, I think that you would do good to kind of sit on the sidelines and and, uh, try and play with those abilities and everything without a body, and you might find that you might be a lot more effective without a body. Or you might find that you could be more effective with a body when you knew what those abilities were, without the interference of the physical universe and the body getting in the way.
Speaker 1:That's, that's my current viewpoint, yeah wow, um, so do you think that it's possible for someone to drop the body and reincarnate and come back in like 1940?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess it depends on what your awareness and what your perceptions are. My awareness and perception is that we're kind of on a loop, and I think that it has a lot to explain for what people describe as deja vu, like we talked about in the last podcast, unfortunately. I think that self-determinism is a key thing, but I also think that we're on a little bit of a loop as far as the physical universe goes, and this is talked about, and I thought this, and so did my wife we've talked about it too, carrie and carrie and I that we're a little bit on a loop where we're kind of running through the same time track history, at least once or maybe more, over and over for some reason, and, uh, you start to find out about a lot of this data on the uh cbr bridge round, about the the level of the phoenix well, well, just just what.
Speaker 1:What time period are you talking about? Talking about the 20th century, or what?
Speaker 2:well, I, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't say, I don't know that it that it would be linear, it could be completely random. Um, you know who's to say and I'm just saying this as a hypothesis who's to say after you finish, ot, umpty, ump, whatever number, um, that you've changed the wolf in the warp of the track for you, and so you're going to come back in 1863 or 1492 or whatever, or 2196 or something like that. It wouldn't surprise me. I mean, the further I go up up the bridge, the less things surprise me as to what, what potential outcomes there are. And, um, it's one hell of a game. That's for sure.
Speaker 1:He definitely keeps it interesting yeah, it's so interesting, like you know, what had happened to me recently um, I um woke up in the morning and I I managed to score the original copies of the mission earth books and I got, I got the the books on a bookshelf and, um, I woke up in the morning and the first volume of Mission Earth was half pulled out of the bookshelf, quite noticeably, quite noticeably like, quite obvious, like something is leaving a message for me, like you know, as in saying, you know, read this thing truth about the world that hubbard put into these fiction books.
Speaker 1:And I listened to the audio book for it, which was 30 hours long, and it cut out I thought it was great, but it was a really condensed form, like it's actually much, much longer, with heaps more information, and it's something that I've always wanted to get into reading. And it's like something was sending me a message like, hey, you know, you've got to read mission earth, you know, and it's like and I've had other moments as well where it's like I've woken up in the morning and it seems like a ghost has moved, something like it's trying to send me a message, because there's like a meaning behind it, and it's like I know ghosts exist. I mean, we know that satans exist outside of the body, but it's just like it's just so deep. You know, unless you've had these odd experiences, you just don't believe in this sort of stuff, you know yeah, well, I mean, the world that we live in is full of suppressed and invalidated not is.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what it consists of that anything that doesn't conform to the norm of, uh, our hand is suppressed, invalidated and not is to the point to where. Well, with the advent of the internet, they can pretty much rewrite history whenever they want. As long as the internet is in existence and electrons still move through wires, anything is possible. I think that that's part of the reason why the internet has been allowed to expand and become so verbose is that they can use it as a tool to change anything they want to, because if it's not on the internet, like LRH says in the Not series, the hardest thing to spot is a missing list.
Speaker 1:What do you think about some of these things? Because I heard a story about LRH flipping open a book to a certain page that was about not having to do sex checks when you're on OT7 or something like that. Some story like that like some people who claim to be sort of interested in communication with LRH, or something like that. Have you heard of these stories?
Speaker 2:Well, as far as the opening a book and you know the reference that you're looking for, just being right in front of you I've had that, no no, but apparently I know yeah, I've had it happen as well.
Speaker 1:It's like it's maybe an ot ability or something, but, like, as in, it's happened. It happened a few times, like, like, like, as, like a ghost was there forcing the book to go to this certain page to wake this person up, because, because this person was supposed to be fighting.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that that's very likely and very possible, given the parameters with which, again, the body, a symbol that you identify with, and its ability to perceive, and then the narrow bandwidth with which you can actually see visible light, uh, the things that you can perceive with the 52 perceptions that lrh delineates in the technical volumes. Uh, it's an extremely, extremely narrow band. Uh, and when you look at what the actual light spectrum is, uh, another example would be, uh, the infrared spectrum. They used to use infrared on helicopters and jets in the military. The us military did, and they had to stop using infrared because it was freaking out the pilots so much of the things that they were seeing in the infrared spectrum that they couldn't see themselves with their own naked eye, so they switched over to infra green what were they saying in the infrared?
Speaker 2:uh, god only knows.
Speaker 2:Whatever it was, it wasn't pretty entities or some shit like that yeah, yeah, stuff that they were seeing when they were flying, that they could see with infrared, that they could not see with the naked eye, was was so interulating to them that they had to switch to a, a safer part of the spectrum, which we now know, as you know, infra green, which is the day for, or not, not a day for, night, but for the uh, you know no light situations, like when you're using a camera that can see in the dark and everything. It's using a green part of the spectrum instead of a red part of the spectrum. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit. You know that if, while you're doing this podcast, there's somebody standing over your shoulder. But I mean, you know, to use the term standing has to be an extremely loose expression, because you know beings don't have to stand, only bodies stand.
Speaker 2:And this is one of the things that people that don't understand Scientology can't think outside of the box with, because they represent everything from the viewpoint of a being being in a body, a marionette of a being being in a body, a marionette, and so if their marionette cannot experience this, or they can't explain it from the viewpoint of a marionette's viewpoint, then it doesn't exist. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever ever experienced as a Scientologist or as an OT, because they're only looking at it through a narrow band of experience.
Speaker 1:So a marionette's a puppet, just to clear that up for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you heard these things about in the old days like the 50s and that where people could get their body to float? Have you heard about this?
Speaker 2:I've heard about that. I've also seen Indian swamis who could do that sort of a thing.
Speaker 1:Really so. You've seen it with your own eyes.
Speaker 2:Well, I've seen videos of it that didn't appear to be doctored. You know, from the 30s forward, of these swamis who could levitate things. But see, this is what I'm talking about. Is the thing is is, like ellery says, you don't want to go knocking hats off at a distance as an ot. Now I can tell you that I cannot knock hats off at a distance as an ot right now that's also because you haven't spent time drilling it.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you could do it once you drill it.
Speaker 2:Well, whether I can or I can't, I'm not worried about that. I'm sure that I probably could if I wanted to. I mean, there's lots of other interesting things that I can do. But see, the thing is, when you're dealing with people, with critics of Scientology, their viewpoint is well, what can you do to prove to me, gandalf, that you're OT?
Speaker 2:See, the thing is is they're already looking at it from the viewpoint of parlor tricks, that sort of a thing can you float off the ground, so on and so forth, because they're not aware of the fact that there is another universe that they're a part of, which is really, really unfortunate. They don't know that they're part of the theta universe and that the theta universe doesn't have any space or time. You can communicate with somebody in another galaxy if you want to and you have ARC for them, and get in calm with them and have a conversation with them telepathically, or 10 galaxies away, on the other side of the physical universe or in another universe. That beats knocking hats off at a distance or making a rock float exponentially, because you're, you're transiting time and distance, because there is no such thing. We don't. We're spirits in the material world and that's that's what they need to understand they're criticizing're criticizing something that they have no concept of, and that's the funniest thing about critics of Scientology is they don't even understand what it is that they're criticizing.
Speaker 1:All they've all they've seen is the review, and it's like you can't just go by what you've read on from reviews. Um, so, with the past life thing, uh, how do you get certainty on who you are in a past life? Like, how, like I don't know what you're willing to talk about with your past life, but like, how do you become aware of what you're doing your last lifetime?
Speaker 2:okay, well, let's do a drill. Okay, yeah, it may or may not work. Let's, let's, let's do a test first. Okay, I want you to think of one of the one of the major pleasure moments, uh, that you had when you were a kid, and let me know what, what it was, what the significance was, where were, where was, where did this take place? What was the significance of the event?
Speaker 1:um, well, I think it could be. Um, I just thought of like uh playing in a tree and pretending like it was a rocket ship.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, was there anybody else around?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, who was around with you?
Speaker 1:My older sister and my dad.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, how high up off the ground were you?
Speaker 1:Probably three meters.
Speaker 2:Okay, good. Where was the sun at this point in time? Behind you, in front of you?
Speaker 1:um it was, I think it was to the north okay, so were you actually oh, now I'm well. I mean, I got the instant answer actually to the northeast, but now I'm thinking, I'm being a bit logical, I'm thinking it's probably more in the afternoons. It was probably northwest.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's bypass the logical. I want you to tell me what your knowingness tells you. Where was it?
Speaker 1:I'll have to go by the instant answer. The more northeasterly direction.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, that's what we're looking for. Is the instant answer? Okay, all right, so where do you see yourself from in the tree?
Speaker 1:Sort of from maybe a meter above, like looking at it.
Speaker 2:Maybe three meters.
Speaker 1:Maybe like a film shot from like three meters or something. Okay, so you see the back of your head or to the side sort of the top of my head, almost sort of top side of my head top side.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, all right. So we're doing good so far, um, all right. What year were you born? 89, 1989, okay, all right. So where where you and I want your instant answer? Only Do not invalidate any answer that comes out, okay, because I'm right there in the room with you right now, about one foot in front of your face. Okay, well, hold on Now.
Speaker 1:I want to test you out and see if you can see what I'm doing then.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm just doing this to let you know that I'm in the room with you and I'm going to intend you to get the answer that we're looking for.
Speaker 1:Okay, by the way, if anyone's listening to this and thinking this is really weird. I had a conversation with a friend who, um, almost had sex with a girl. But this spiritual way of like, the one person was in america and one was in australia, but somehow they came together in spirit form and had sex or something. I'm not joking, like literally, like I don't know.
Speaker 1:It was really weird, like they felt each other's energy or something, and it's probably not right for me to talk about the specifics, but probably not but, basically he could feel her or she could feel him in spirit form or something, and it's just like whoa right, well, we're gonna go for something a little more sorry, I've got a more pr.
Speaker 2:I've got a more pr answer.
Speaker 1:I've got a more appropriate example. I knew someone who was, who was like like a special psychic and stuff, and he had this ability to like astral walk or exterior eyes and he went into someone's house to look for their keys or whatever. He went in as a ghost, like in spirit form, to look for the keys and the other person perceived a ghost in their house and then told him the next day hey, I think my house is hoarded. He was like no, that was me. I was looking for the keys in your house because they had lost their keys.
Speaker 1:Long story, but this shit's real.
Speaker 2:Anyway, all right, so I'm about a foot, foot and a half in front of you.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:All right, I want you to tell me what you were doing in early June of 1963. What's your answer? What do you see?
Speaker 1:Well, I thought of St Hill, but yeah, that was, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what did you see?
Speaker 1:I was there. Tell me what you saw, um. I saw um. Like what I saw, the building almost like a sort of um, not in like the main building of saint hill, but like as in the uh, I feel like it's like groundkeeper building or like you know, just some sort of like small, like minor building. It's like a nothing building. That's like near, I guess, the manor, like I can think. I think it's where maybe cars drive past okay, all right, so were you in that?
Speaker 1:building at the time. I, I think, maybe, I think I was maybe doing paperwork in that building or something.
Speaker 2:Okay Good. What color was your hair?
Speaker 1:I got an instant answer of like yellow, like straw, straw yellow.
Speaker 2:So kind of a you were a toehead, a blonde, like you are now.
Speaker 1:No, but it was. The flash answer was like what's the straw color? I kind of think what's straw color, like I don't know. I guess wheat color, something like that.
Speaker 2:Good Were you on course at St Hill.
Speaker 1:Well, not when I was doing that paperwork stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, but you were on course at St Hill. That's why you were there, right.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but this is getting real funky here. I just have to go a flash answer. You were there right?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but this is getting real funky here. I just have to go a flash answer. Well, I just, I'm just I'm asking you and you're giving me the answers, because your original question is what about this past life thing? And my point being, uh, is that you can intend anybody down the track, especially as an ot, because when you have a comm cycle with someone and this is not an auditing session we're just doing straight recall on something, so it's not aberrative or anything like that. I'm just trying to give you a reality that when you're working with somebody that can be sort of your escort as an OT, to go down the track, it's a lot easier. And then you can answer your own question. That's a past life. If I were to say what was the temperature at the time in that building while you were there, what would you say? What would your snap answer be?
Speaker 1:15 degrees. That's not Fahrenheit, by the way celsius yeah, yeah, celsius. Well, it was in the summer, so, uh, what a fairly early morning yeah, well, if it was in the summer then yes, but why are you saying some are using your perceptions?
Speaker 2:well, I can kind of pick up some of the things that you're perceiving.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay.
Speaker 1:And did you look over your right shoulder to see what cars were coming down the road towards you? Yeah, because in the right direction is where the um and where I think the road is between the building I'm in and the the manor.
Speaker 2:All right. So there's your answer. That's, that's past life. I mean, you're you're doing something which is really easy to do. It's kind of like saying well, what did you have for breakfast yesterday? Well, I had a bowl of cereal and some 2% milk with it, or something. It's no different than that. It's just getting somebody to not invalidate or suppress or not is those particular things and just go towards a benign incident of existence that they were in last life or the life prior, whatever situation is. So it's not hard, especially if you've had any auditing at all. That helps quite a bit and you're in good shape. But you can pretty much do it with anybody, unless they're in really rough shape. So it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting because it's a bit odd as well that, um, I would, I would walk into scientology as opposed to being born into it or anything um, yeah and and sort of latch on to it. Um, the only thing that that makes me think a little bit concerned is the fact that a lot of people, regardless of whether or not they're sires in their past life, um, they like it and they get into it heavily. There's something about Scientology where you get hooked on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I mean, if it's true for the person and they have experienced gains from it, then they're going to be willing to do more of it. And it's sort of a you know, yeah, I'll take some more of that please, type of a thing. And the reason why you don't see as many Scientologists coming back around from, say, the 90s or things like that is because it's not so much Scientology anymore, it's something else.
Speaker 1:So that's why I was saying a lot of these people seem to be like old timers from saint hill or whatever, because that was when it was the tech was better and people wanted to be around, as opposed to the 90s. In some crappy org was, you know, david mcavage running.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, because the thetan knows I mean, that's that's the most important thing and that's that's how I was able to demonstrate that to you just now is is because the Thetan knows we're just trying to bypass all of the other crap. That's saying, no, this isn't true. No, this is made up. You know that sort of a thing and this sort of thing doesn't happen. I mean, that's how the society is rigged is. They don't want you to know you're a spiritual being. They don't want you to know that you know all and see all. You just have to put your feelers out there to perceive it, because then you're a dangerous being to them and they can't put you in a cage. That's what it all comes down to. So that's why I demonstrated that to you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you're a past lifer I uh, I remember when I uh read, like first read, dianetics or whatever, and yeah, it was like I was reading things and I was like, though it was like you know stuff that I felt like I sort of already knew before and at the time I thought, you know, um, that hubbard had just come to similar conclusions, that I had come to, um, but it could could just be that I've already been exposed to this book before you know what I mean, but it was things like the whole idea that life was a game, or I always had the idea that it was like a game of monopoly, which is just very similar to. Life is a Game, the same sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Right and then the whole idea, yeah, but it very much ringed true to me. You know what I mean, and that's why I was kind of like I don't know. It's just when people hate Scientology and they're not going to leave it. I'm just like how can you do that to such a book as Dianetics? It's got some groundbreaking information in it, and it's really good information. How can you just rant and attack the whole subject when it's just like whoa, this book's great. You know what I mean. Anyway, with your past life, though, did you tap into like are you willing to talk about who you were?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I can tell you sort of what the surrounding situation was um because, because I mean I'll that, that I think that would find that would be really interesting, you know well, I was a I was a trust fund kid.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of money for it was a old english money. I was british and my father was still around and he didn't didn't like, uh, the fact that I was in scientology, because at that time the old school, old money british families very much poo-pooed scientology. Scientology uh was receiving the sort of bad press in England at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in Australia, I mean, scientologists have been bullied for a long time. But yeah, go on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I was able to travel around and go to many of the ACC's and things like that in the 50s freely because I had the money to do so and I a friend of mine had told me about it and given me the Dianetics book and I was hooked and I started going to the advanced clinical course lectures and you know, the Scientology that was being done then in Dianetics was what would later, bits and pieces of it would become the OT level. So there were a lot of really able, really intelligent, really theta for people that aren't Scientologists, people that were real flowy and open and helpful. It wasn't like a hippie movement or anything. These were really sharp individuals who saw that this technology worked and that this guy was on to something.
Speaker 1:Oh, hold on. By the way, can I mention something as well? I've worked something out big with that. Okay, I think what happened with the generation of people? Can I mention something as well? I've worked something out big with that. Okay, I think what happened with the generation of people born like maybe post-1955, there was more TV, there was more drugs and all this sorts of stuff and they've been heavily affected by corporations and this bad lifestyle, and I feel like people who were born a part of my grandparents' past generation, like in the 1930s and the 20s and stuff. They were a lot more able and switched on and they weren't addicted to sex or drugs or eating Cheezos and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:Anyway, go on, there's actually a point though.
Speaker 1:There's actually a point where you can notice a sudden shift in society, and I think it was started with people born from maybe 55 onwards or something. There's an actual shift where you can see the degradation, and this is why lrh was going crazy with his c-org in the 60s because he was going look at these statistics, this society's going wild, it's going freaking crazy. This is just, this is off the charts and uh, he was really worried, you know, and I and now I can see all the evidence for it, you know right.
Speaker 2:Well, with the, with the advent of tv, um, I think that that was sort of the beginning of the end yeah, and and tv and drugs came at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah and then you know, you start getting into, uh, the the pot culture in the early 60s, late 50s, 50s, reefer madness, I mean, that went back all the way to the 30s, but you really started seeing the degradation being kicked in by numerous different influences and I think it was an effort in concert. And that was one of the things that we were seeing towards the late 50s is that things were changing rapidly, um, and that something really needed to be done about it. Yeah and yeah, and you got, you got people.
Speaker 1:You got people like alex jones, who says that some of these top sps, these top evil people, were pushing uh well, are pushing marijuana and trying to make it more of a stronger potent stuff. Like I think he was talking about kissinger or something, or no george soros or whatever. Like he said something like they're, they want you want to try marijuana and see how much stronger thing I had made it or something. It's just so deep. It's just like wow, yeah, and it makes sense. Like things don't just happen. These things are specifically pushed onto people and stuff.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I mean, you can't control a critical thinking nation because they won't fall for your lives. And the thing is is that if you get them hooked on drugs, you get them watching TV that has subliminal messaging in it and radio that has subliminal messaging in it. And in this pushing, this counterculture of degradation and is is being purveyed to the lowest of the lowest common denominator. It's going to over decades, it's going to make a really big dent in their willingness to fight back. And that's exactly. They've gotten exactly what they wanted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in short, yeah, I think it's probably taking longer than what they thought. But I mean, if you look at all the statistics you can see they've totally had a massive change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so to any Hold on, hold on.
Speaker 1:So with the TV thing, yeah, it's not only getting people to buy these products and stuff, like with the ads and all these sorts of things, and then encouraging sex by having a sexy woman in the ad or whatever, there's also the actual propaganda of the news, which can just be absolute lies. But then also, if TV even was pure and had nice quality art shows like nice quality things, enjoyable sitcoms and stuff, even that in itself is bad because it's training a person to be a spectator in life. So if they're sitting down at the TV from age four onwards as a kid, they're getting trained into just being a spectator you know what I mean, and not a doer, just a watcher. You know Be effect, be effect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all flow, three others to others, yeah, yeah, and see, that was the thing. Is you thing? Lrh saw this and he tried to develop these undercuts to society in the LOC. So to return to the original question what was I doing last lifetime? I was working in Scientology up until almost the very end, I mean literally until the very end.
Speaker 2:I was one of the guinea pigs on the original ot2 course and um he had, it had gotten it all potted out and the dates were wrong on the incidents and it plowed me under and that was that. And then I picked up another body in east africa about seven, eight months later hold on a second.
Speaker 1:Did you just drop another big bomb?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Did you say no, but as in like the whole OT, are you saying you died on the OT levels?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I died on OT too, before LRH had figured out that the dates were incorrect on the materials, because the materials were incorrectly dated on the whole track in order to screw you up so that you couldn't figure it out. Lrh at the time hadn't figured it out yet and I was one of the early adopters guinea pigs, if you will to try it out, and in so doing it had some less than fabulous effects on the body and I ended up dropping the body and then picked up another body a few months later, not far from the Mediterranean, in East Africa.
Speaker 1:So you're one of the like. When LRH in Ron's Journal 67 talks about how hardcore the I guess the OT3 material is, or whatever, like you know, for PR reasons he didn't mention that actually some people had died from some of this research.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't even get to ot3.
Speaker 1:I was on ot2, uh, when I dropped the body yeah, but in ron's journal, I think he's talking about just that sort of that area, I guess he's talking about those sorts of things, that high level sort of data and and ot stuff yeah, it's one of those.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's one of those things that until you actually do it, you're going to have reservations about it. But if you've actually made it to the point to where you should be doing the level and you do the level the way he says to do it, you will find that that area is so severely and heavily charged it's not even funny.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what about you're saying some of these people who are doing it in the church because they're doing it incorrectly and they're getting squirrel tech and stuff and they're doing it so wrong so they're not even actually properly accessing this part of their case properly accessing?
Speaker 2:this part of their case? No, they're not, actually. I mean, first of all, no auditing can occur under PTS, okay, because any gains that the person has, they're going to go away, all right. So anybody listening to this down the road from when we recorded this, this down the road from when we recorded this, from 14 october 2017, planet earth.
Speaker 2:What you're dealing with in scientology right now, modern day, in the church of scientology, is you're dealing with a ptsness. You're going to be rollercoastering because, whether you like it or not, you're part of a suppressive organization and you're PTS to them. They're suppressing you, they're altering the data and, if you're on the OT levels, you are at risk period because they are suppressive and it's not going to help you. You need to get away from that and you need to do the OT levels as they were meant to be done, unencumbered by ptsness, and there are many people in the field that can help you with that standard okay, and and and and lh did fix up the tech so that people don't die when they're doing it right yeah, yeah, I mean he actually eventually figured out that the dates that were in these particular incidents on ot2 were the wrong dates.
Speaker 2:Because this all goes back to the actions in scientology that to get a proper business you have to have the proper time, place, form an event. So for anything to persist, there's a lie behind it. So the guys that develop these implants back on the track that you're handling on ot2, they wrong dated them so that it would screw you up.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:LRH didn't catch it at first and then eventually he did, because he's a really smart guy.
Speaker 1:Now, this isn't Incident 1. Incident 1 is part of OT3, right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And what's the clearing course? That's nothing to do with Incident 1 or Incident 2, or it sort of is.
Speaker 2:But it's a whole different thing it sort of is, by extension, a whole different thing. It sort of is, but it's not. But, uh, ot2 and the clearing course, a lot of the materials are the same materials yeah, hold on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's close up. So, ot, no, so clearing course, ot1, ot2, ot3 they're all sort of the same thing, but just broken into different parts. Is that right?
Speaker 2:yeah, they're, they're. They're components from the same situation.
Speaker 2:That would be the safest way, yeah yeah, because everyone assigns this thing to sort of ot, this implant, ot3 or whatever all the time and but it's all sort of one big thing really yeah, yeah, a lot of the stuff that was used in the OT3 materials in the actual incident that was laid in on people was data that had been found and was used earlier on the track, and so that data was plowed in on people from an earlier, so it was basically like taking something from the greeks and the romans used it.
Speaker 1:that's that's the best way to describe it as an analogy so so is it like the incident that occurred in ot3 or sorry, this, this incident, two or whatever, um is so deep that you need to do it in a few. It's broken into like three ot levels sort of you need to do it in a few, it's broken into like three OT levels, so you need to approach it from different ways and crack it open and it's just like you can't just do it in OT3s. It's always got the clearing course in there and all that. It's that wild.
Speaker 2:Clearing course is done. If the person doesn't go clear on on new aerodynamics, modern day, or you know, know, has other troubles which we won't go into. But I mean, it's all of the data is a package of information from three to one, not so much. One is sort of a welcome to the OT levels type of a thing, the original one, which is what people should do, type of a thing, the original one, which is what people should do, not what the church passes off as OT1, because it has no resemblance to LRH's handwritten OT1. So OT2, ot3 in the clearing course the data is related, either closely or distantly, based off of other factors, but they're they're all part and parcel to the same incidents in one way or another yeah, okay, um, and just I've got a quick question.
Speaker 1:I just I want you to like one word, answer this Do you think with GAT2 they're screwing the tech so that people are doing their grades faster and achieving, like the state of clear faster, but they're not really properly achieving those things?
Speaker 2:I would say absolutely.
Speaker 1:Really yeah, because that's what my observation has noticed as well. Like, apparently, it just seems like they're like a Melbourne org has sort of made apparently like 50 clears this year, which is really unusual, like back in 2011,. It was like two people, right, they made 50 clears this year and I heard it's a lot of the staff, which sounds pretty good because the staff deserve it and stuff, but the org's no more bigger than usual. See, I would have thought, well, that means they must be booming, like there's no tomorrow to have 50 clears made this year. But they're not.
Speaker 2:So it's like I think they're quicking people to this state well, yeah, here's my think on it is that he's bled every possible turnip, dry every possible turnip he can possibly come up with on the ot levels, and so he's realized that he needs to needs to plant seeds, somehow, some way to get other people to become turnips so that he can do the same thing to them. Now, whether they can and they've actually made it or not, doesn't matter to him, because that's that's not the point. The point is an admin guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he's looking at it from the viewpoint of the almighty dollar. Because he is such a solid citizen, that's the only thing he can understand. Okay, is money messed symbology of importance by vis-a-vis fiat currency, that sort of a thing? So he's pushing people up the bridge without them actually making it, quickening them, and he's trying to get more people up there so that he has new OTs that he can bleed dry.
Speaker 1:Okay but have you come across people who have actually been announced? Gat too clear, but um aren't clear not a one I I haven't.
Speaker 2:I haven't met anybody. That's a gat too clear. So I haven't run across any of those people yet. They either haven't come out of the church or they haven't contacted me, or any of the people that I know do the same thing, so that might be something we see down the road, but I I think it's a little early for that all right, but you?
Speaker 1:but you like me, as in the evidence seems to be indicating that they've quickied things yeah, I mean that's that's his only solution.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what he's done with everything else. Yeah, so you know why would he change midstream?
Speaker 1:So when you handle some of this high-level material incorrectly, like I assume you did in your past life or whatever because the tech wasn't perfected, how does it kill someone?
Speaker 2:Well, it can affect the body, how the body can develop difficulties, especially on the lower end of the bridge, because your awareness isn't such that you can perceive what's going on, because you're still kind of looking at things from the viewpoint of being the body to a degree, and you could get any number of hundreds of problems because this stuff has been keyed in, that's what it was made for. I mean, they knew that people were going to be embodied still at the point that they developed these, these implants, because they had been been around a lot longer than that beforehand when these implants were made hey, and can I?
Speaker 1:can I say something as well? I mean, uh, this might sound wild, but this is basically just advanced versions of mind control technology, which apparently our governments sort of have these days, like as in with this whole MKUltra thing and stuff, where they take people and they make them into a mind control assassin and stuff and they give them drugs and they brainwash them. We've just got the, the lower tech. I mean, there's much deeper, bigger versions, isn't there?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, the thing is is that's why what happened to scientology happened is because scientology actually worked at the time that this stuff was taken out of the church in the early 70s by, you know, a couple of cia operatives and everything like that. And, um, I think you know bandying about the mk ultra program and all that stuff. That's old, old, old news. These guys have taken that, that data from the early 70s and superseded, from a black office viewpoint, uh, scientology by leaps and bounds now well, so.
Speaker 1:So what do you think that the mind control technology they've got going now that they might be using on someone?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you know those particular things as far as pain, drug and hypnosis or what LRH would call PDHing, those things are still in use. I'm not saying that they're not formidable weapons against the American public or Scientology or any entity that they want to use them against. They are. But as far as the technology that they got from Scientology and LRH's research, I think almost a dead certainty that they have taken these things and are like… Hold on a second Sorry, yes, what do you want?
Speaker 1:All right, let's continue. Sorry about that, it's all right.
Speaker 2:These things happen when we start talking about things like this.
Speaker 1:No way, no way. Are you being serious? Are you being?
Speaker 2:a joke. I'm being dead serious, I'm not joking.
Speaker 1:Because I've noticed that, uh, whenever, um, well, because you got like the, the alphabet agencies or whatever that are like monitoring people and stuff, and if they go on to sensitive topics, then they press like an interference button and it stuffs up like the radio show or it cuts people's internet. I mean, I know, I know for sure that is what they do, totally like the same as imagine os, osa might be doing, or they definitely want to have that technology to do it. But this is something else you're mentioning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's much more subtle because it doesn't. It isn't something that you can go aha. It's something that, well, somebody comes in and interrupts you while you're talking about something that could be shared with thousands of people and it looks just innocent. But the thing is that the people that are driving, the people that are doing it to you, they know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Do you really believe that? Yes, so what were we exactly talking? We'll be talking about mind control technology, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, we were talking about mk ultra and how that had been superseded by a lot higher, uh capability type programs. Uh, that they that they use, since the, for example. Let me give you a prime example uh, you know, dr xavier, in the x-men, right?
Speaker 1:not the marvel comics no, I haven't read it I've seen the movies.
Speaker 2:Well, dr xavier, he, he runs a school for mutants, okay, and he has telepathic abilities, where he gets on a machine and he can see every mutant in the world and he can communicate with them and perceive them. Well, you're dealing with with programs like that that they can. They've taken people who, for lack of a better expression, are black OTs and they have these abilities and they can go find any particular person they need to find, just based off of a shred of information, and then they can kind of flick the Satan finger on them to do something that they want them to do. That might butterfly effect, for example, your relatives coming in and talking to you while we were talking about this very thing. That's just an example so they can.
Speaker 1:They can sort of control bodies from a distance. Yeah, well you're not.
Speaker 2:You're not controlling. You're not controlling bodies from a distance. You're controlling thetans that control bodies who are unknowing participants in a much bigger game. That's the sort of thing that a person can do. Any OT can do it if they want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like psychic attacks sort of.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be nefarious. Well, yeah, I'm not. Just I'm not saying that it necessarily has to be nefarious, but what I am saying is is that the potential is there and lrh pretends, actually presents this potential to you on the original ot four through seven, more so four through six. But the original ot levels that are no longer part of the scientology bridge are those OT levels that present these OT abilities to you through LRH and his demonstration processes. That's why they were gotten rid of in Scientology, because they don't want people running around doing this unless they work for whichever nefarious agency wants to use them wow, so deep.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I've heard of psychic attacks, like something like because these abilities exist and so the military or whatever uses them in a, as a form of attacking someone or whatever in some way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the church uses them too.
Speaker 1:Really so you really think that?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think that you know that All right hold on a second.
Speaker 1:Can we have a break for like two minutes and then we'll continue? Let's continue. So you were saying that you know for sure that the church used psychic attacks?
Speaker 2:Well, I think calling it a psychic attack really isn't a fair term.
Speaker 1:What word would be good then?
Speaker 2:What we call it is black knots.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, but for someone who doesn't know Scientology, a real simple, like a layman's term, I think psychic attack, a psychic well, if you wanted to really go lame and you could say they're putting a curse on someone, I mean, you know that would be would be the time tested, and you know that's the best way to describe it. It's sort of low order. But you know, psychic is kind of a dirty word because it doesn't really encompass the entirety of OT. So maybe for other people it does, it doesn't for me. I kind of find it a lame term. But that's fine. I mean, you know it's just a label.
Speaker 1:So how does one come to discover this? Because, because I mean, I imagine people who aren't even sized and if they listen to, this would just be like what the hell? And they probably wouldn't have gotten this far into the interview anyway. But right, I mean, imagine there's probably some size listening, thinking what the hell, and how the hell does john think he knows this? Or something like that.
Speaker 2:Well see, that's the funny thing about the OT levels is that as you advance up the OT levels, your awareness, your perception, your knowingness increase and you're not even going to be aware of certain things until you do OT level whatever and you'll think, well, yeah, I know, I know all there is to know. And then you do the next OT and you'll think, well, yeah, I know all there is to know. And then you do the next OT level and you're like, well, I didn't know anything then Because it's all relative, you don't know what you don't know. And that's the brilliance of LRH's tech and David Mayo's help with LRH on the knots materials and things like that. Because I will give credit where credit is due, even though that may be unpopular with some people.
Speaker 1:Okay, now hold on a second. So you're saying, with this information about the church using black knots, you haven't been told that by like an insider or something as in. You've gotten that from Case Gain and your OT abilities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've, actually I've looked into it and many other people have become aware of it, either on their own auspices or been CSed to look into that sort of a thing, because it is a factual form of interference for anybody who raises their head up and goes public or creates a problem or tries to free people, um, you know, outside of the church and is trying to push scientology further, beyond what they want to push it as man, this is so deep.
Speaker 1:So are you telling me that in the Office of Special Affairs they might have a room with OTs sitting in there thinking things and create problems.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what I get from it at least, and other people that I've talked to who have looked into it have is that they're trying to add on case to a specific individual who is making waves that they don't want making waves. That's probably the best way I could put it.
Speaker 1:Wow is probably the best way I could put it Wow. So I mean, how would you recruit someone into the Office of Special Affairs to do such a post?
Speaker 2:Well, if somebody were in a lower condition let's say they were a flag public and it was found out that there was something they were doing that was less than ideal, and then the church could kind of blackmail them and say well, we'll take your spiritual eternity away if you don't do this lower condition. And what we want you to do to make up your liability condition is we want you to go in session and we want you to find this Jonathan Burke guy, and what we want you to do is dot, dot, dot, dot dot. And so this OT7 does what they tell him to do, and this particular methodology, just so happens, works.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And they can make life a little more difficult. Wow, and they can. They can make life a little more difficult, but for anybody who's you know, especially somebody who's tech trained and isn't just a solo auditor, uh, they're gonna pick up on it pretty quick and go. Something's not right in my universe. What is this? Um, there was a, a blogger out of south africa who'd gotten out of the church and they had been writing a blog for at least over a year and they posted a blog about this particular phenomena and their question was, literally is someone fucking with my case?
Speaker 2:That was the title of the blog Well, this was what they were talking about in the blog. So they went in session as a solo knots auditor and they asked the question is somebody fucking with my case? And they got a long fall blow down, which is the largest read you can get on a regular scientology meter is a very big read, which means there's a lot of charge there. And so they pulled it down and found out where this particular individual was, and they also handled any of the composite case components that you handle in nuts and dismantled the whole thing. But it was because they were blogging about the church in a negative light, and so they took it upon themselves to try and take them out. Now the interesting thing is is that particular blogger has not written one blog post since they they brought this up is that because?
Speaker 1:they're still around, or?
Speaker 2:what I could not tell you. I do not know. I just find it very date coincident.
Speaker 1:So you post some big, groundbreaking thing and then he goes quiet. Yeah, why are they doing this to Chris Shelton?
Speaker 2:They could be doing it to anybody. I mean, you know, it wouldn't surprise me one bit, one bit that not only do they do this sort of thing towards, um, you know, people who are on knots, because it's a lot easier to do on people who aren't on knots, because they're not going to have a clue as to what's going on, because they don't understand the phenomenon what would they be perceiving?
Speaker 2:well, they could I mean you could, for lack of a better expression they could get people to think or do anything, given enough time to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 1:So, basically, you sort of keep on directing sort of an idea at them and eventually they take on that idea as their own thoughts.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a lot more to it than an idea. There's actually a lot more capability, power force. I just can't get into the details on it because it's upper level stuff.
Speaker 1:I know. But let's say, but what if someone who isn't up to that level yet might be receiving an attack like this? So it would be good to give them some information so that they know what to look out for.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're doing something outside of what you would normally do, that doesn't make sense and isn't really rational, you might be being screwed with, and I'd like to indicate that to anybody that finds themselves thinking things that they don't normally think. And they used to like Scientology, but they've been making waves, or maybe the church found out about them or, you know, they could even take individuals who have absolutely nothing to do with the church, green as a leaf on a tree and put it in their heads. You're going to get into scientology in the field and you're going to create problems.
Speaker 2:They can do that too, and these people wouldn't have a clue. Wouldn't have a clue.
Speaker 1:Okay, so well, this is like. There's this thing where there's some guy called Corey Goode who's apparently been abducted by aliens and was away for 40 years and he came back to Earth and only six minutes had gone by and he said, yeah, but for 40 years I was out back to earth and only six minutes had gone by. And he and he said, yeah, but for 40 years I was out in the stars or whatever, on mars and stuff, and he has no evidence for it. Um, and people in the ufo community um reckon that he's just a victim of government mind control and that they've because the government want the government wants someone walking around saying absolutely outrageous things to discredit the whole people trying to expose the truth about UFOs.
Speaker 2:Right but the stories have changed over time too, which is very suspect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's questionable what's going on. And also I listened to the way how he argues back to defend himself and that to me, was outpouring, the way how he handled being accused of of being a not genuine or something um, but but that's kind of I don't know. It's just everything that's going on is so deep, it's just like what the hell. So okay, I mean okay, so Black Knot's, okay, so we covered that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to circle back what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we're talking about the government having psychic attacks. So you say that it's possible.
Speaker 2:The US government has people that they're– I assume they wouldn't use actual black knots technology because they wouldn't know it, but they have a similar way to put curses on people or something you reckon well, all I can say is is with the material that I'm familiar with, because this material is on the internet, okay, and it's been validated as the material that we have used, okay, so it's not something that I'm unfamiliar with or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I know that the knots materials that I used on myself and that I was cs'd on and all of this and all of my bridge was the correct bridge, and what I'm saying is is that if I got the correct bridge and I got these materials off of the internet, you better be damn sure that the nsa and the cia have had this, this material, for decades, okay, and they've taken this material and they are using it for their own means and purposes because they can and they know it works, and that's why scientology is in the state that it is in the period, paragraph I've noticed with um, with some freedom fighters that, uh, you can sometimes notice they look under the weather.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. They look like they've been a bit heavy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've been plowed under.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yet they've done a lot of spiritual stuff and they should be a lot more, I guess, happy looking. Sometimes they look like they're worn out, and so do you think that's because recently they've been getting a fair bit of psychic attack.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, psychic attack, attack, black knots, whatever you want to call it, and and I'm not saying that there aren't other influences besides the things that I'm aware of, because I would be really, really naive to say that the only things that exist are the things that I know exist, and I know that's not the case um, I know there are things I'm not aware of and I'm consciously incompetent, if you will, and that I know that there are other bits of tack and data that that are extant, that have nothing to do with scientology and, um, being that way at least kind of protects you a little bit, that you should keep an open mind at all times, and that, um, there's far more going on than meets the eye, because the eye can only perceive a small portion of what's really going on.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's so important to be ot, because you at least have the ability to perceive things a lot better than you would have otherwise. And if that was all I got from the ot levels, I would be completely satisfied and, uh, not have any problem with it, but it is also a lot more than that. So that's why I I always say run up the bridge, don't walk so deep.
Speaker 1:So you heard, have you heard about this?
Speaker 1:like there's that staring at ghost, at staring at goats movie, uh, where the military experiments with trying to just stare at goats and kill the goats, and this is just a psychic ability that really exists that you really can do, and the military keeps these things secret, like they don't want people knowing. They have UFO like anti-gravity technology. They don't want people knowing about these psychic abilities and stuff, and so it really is believable that it's possible, but they have soldiers that are psychic soldiers that can do this shit yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, if people don't want to believe that, that's fine. They cannot believe it at their own peril. The fact of the matter is is that the inmates are running the asylum. That's. That's long and the short of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because because evil people are insane, it's, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's, it's just and and there's just. We've just got a high percentage of our population that are actually full blown insane and and so they're doing crazy shit and and there's anyway. I mean, when you, when you take someone who's not that competent and they're um, you send them insane. Then they just end up robbing from 7-eleven and stealing cars. But if you take someone who's a really talented, let's say someone like lrh, who's bigger, more powerful, more abilities, and you send them insane, they end up doing the wildest shit, like they really traumatize. They end up just like becoming presidents and becoming heads of corporations and just doing outrageous, like the bad guys in James Bond movies.
Speaker 2:They end up doing these sort of epically bad things and then they bring us all down with them yeah, well, you know it's there's something to be said for it's not a good movie if there aren't explosions in it. Or you know the. The underlying theme of every video game is battle or war, or, you know, killing something instead of creating, I mean the. The most popular video games aren't the, the ones that are creative. They're the ones that have to do with killing and war and all that stuff. And that's all that stuff is covered on the early ot levels and people on this planet are just dramatizing it and they're just on a series of now I'm supposed to like lrh says well, now I'm supposed to do this, and now I'm supposed to do that, and, and that's all it is. And they're just reliving these same type of lives over and over and over and over, because they're unwilling participants in a game that they're unaware of and that.
Speaker 1:That pretty much sums it up there's odd things going on with the people here on Earth and I think there is an answer to it in the OT3 incident. But odd things, like people being obsessed with black leather. You know what I mean? Just odd things that are just like yeah, why are they into like black leather?
Speaker 2:a lot of that stuff is is track based yeah exactly that's why I'm saying it's now I'm supposed to. You know, I'm into snm. Oh well, now I'm supposed to be wearing black leather and then you've got the pedophiles yeah, yeah, I mean all of this. All of the negative stuff that we're seeing currently is all dramatizations, in one form or another, of past track incidents that have been laid in on individuals.
Speaker 2:And these people are unwilling participants too. And these people are unwilling participants too and they can't help themselves because they're so at the adverse effect of it. And LRH figured out a way to handle this stuff and get people out of it. But, you know, we need to get over certain things like sexism, racism, that sort of a thing, racism, that sort of a thing, because these are all things that even Scientologists sometimes especially Scientologists fall prey to. And the fact of the matter is is, whether you have a penis or a vagina, or you're black or you're white or yellow or red or light brown or whatever, it's just a body. We're all Thetans in bodies and these things need to be overcome as Scientologists just as much as they do on the rest of the planet. And the only way you're going to get people to do that is to get three feet behind their head and realize they're not their body. And it isn't going to stop.
Speaker 1:and, unfortunately, scientology barely got out of the out of the gate before it was dismantled, because it really worked I've noticed something odd, for example, where I think that there's there are people who are below tone too and they tend to do this thing, where they add like a color red to their hair and it kind of looks cool, but it sort of doesn't, because then it kind of looks like the person's, like you know, bleeding from their head or something. But it's another little odd thing that humans do that I notice. It's just like what sort of these people that put a little red coloring in their hair?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I think a lot of, I think because it's connected with the low tone thing, as in like if there was if that you know what I mean like, as it just became a fashion trend and everyone was doing it, then fair enough, but it's not really that popular. But you do know, some people are doing it and they tend to be below tone too, and you're like what the hell?
Speaker 2:it's just weird it's a form of being interesting instead of interested. That's what people tend to do with bodies is they interesting in or interested? And interesting is far more aberrative than interested, and that's why that's, you know, if you, if you, you look at anything where you just kind of stop in your tracks and go what the fuck you go? Ah yeah, interesting, not interested.
Speaker 1:What about the gothic people? Is that just backtrack? Shit yeah.
Speaker 2:Interesting. They're trying to be interesting.
Speaker 1:I know. But also it's got to be some sort of backtrack shit, because if I would be interesting I would paint my face blue or something. But they're like, it's like they wear like dog collars and and then they like, and it's just like what the hell?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, you're, you're, you're also looking at a, at a, a form of arc, and there's commonality, because commonality is reality. And so you get these, these certain genres where you've got, uh, like you say, the gothics, and you know, you've got the tattoo people and you've got, like you say, the gothics and you've got the tattoo people, and you've got any number of them, the transgenders, yeah, the different phylums and stuff like that. But it all comes down to interesting. I'm not interesting as a man, so I need to be a woman. Then I will be interesting. That's, that's all it comes down to. That's the. The lowest common denominator on that is because they, they want to be more interesting instead of interested. Interested is high toned, interesting is low toned. That's where I mean that. You just break it down to that. It's black or it's white, it's one or it's zero, whatever you want to call it. It's a binary thing and that's, and that's on the track, you know yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I kind of like when they go to the point where they actually become gothic or transgender or um, like where they, where they clearly change their valence, like it's obvious because you can actually see them physically trying to make their body into a different personality. You know what I mean. Like, anyway, it's just interesting because you're like you know how, as people go, you know, below turn two, they start to go out of their own valence or whatever. And it's just funny when you see them actually physically go along with it all and they become a whole different character and you're like what the hell?
Speaker 2:Right. Well, it's very rare that you see a 30-year-old Gothic person. You know they tend to grow out of that sort of a thing and a lot of that is the dramatization of the drugs that are in their system when they're in their youth, because basically anybody from about 11 or 12 on up to about 19 or 20 is a drug addict. It's just they're not doing over the counter or street, they're just doing their own body's drugs and it really screws with them. Drugs have a huge effect on the composite being Because, like L, like lrh says, the drugs on this planet pair pale in comparison to the drugs on the whole track and it really screws people up and sends them down the track. And yeah, I mean we haven't even come close to some of the drugs that have been on the whole track. So that's, you know, that's the liability of being in a body, because the body is a chemical-making machine in order to drive its purposes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I noticed with a lot of like, especially there's that stereotypical bitchy teenager sort of personality and I noticed with me it was like yeah, as soon as puberty kicks in and stuff and I guess these chemicals start getting made by your body, it keys you in, you start having case problems right, well, and that's, that's, the liability of a composite being.
Speaker 2:That's why I say you need when I say you, I mean the royal, you need to get up the bridge as soon as possible, because you're not going to differentiate out where these sources are coming from, as far as thoughts, impulses, I mean. You know, on and on, and on and on, and, and the only way that you're going to be able to do that is to become less of a composite being and to become yourself. And in valence, that's what the ot levels do, at least you know, all the way up to ot7, through through OT7. And you know, on the CBR bridge that continues some for a couple more levels, but it's a big deal.
Speaker 2:And the most valuable particle in the physical universe is admiration slash attention Period is admiration slash attention period, and that's why you see this planet behaving the way that it is, because you're dealing with composite beings that are being pushed around by their composite case for attention.
Speaker 2:That's it interesting, interested, interested, attention. Those are the most aberrative points for any being on this planet. And if we were to resolve those three points, and only those three points, we would no longer have any wars, no insanity, no killing, no rapes, no pedophilia, nothing. And that's what LRH was shooting for. And the guys that run this planet have got one hell of a composite case on them, and they're probably being pushed around by something far more sinister off the world, if you ask me that's just my opinion To keep this whole thing going Because you don't want to let the inmates out of the asylum, because there's an awful lot of other societies around here that might be at risk if we were to go too far astray, in our current state at least oh, so you're saying yes, so good guys are keeping us here as well.
Speaker 2:Basically because we're just we're just a corrupted civilization well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's sort of like the trash heap, sort of a thing, but the thing is it's, it's all relative.
Speaker 2:You know the people that that may or may not be keeping us here. I don't even say people, the entities, beings, whatever you want to call them. Uh, they're, they're here's, here. This is. This is a harsh reality. Um, what you see here on earth and the way things are, it's not that much different out in the rest of the galaxy.
Speaker 2:Okay, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. I'm not saying it's this way in all of the galaxies, but the fact of the matter is is, if you're in the physical universe, there's some of this stuff going on and it's going to be aberrative because the physical universe, by its its basic building blocks, nature, is aberrative. It persists. The reason why it persists is because there's a lie behind it, and that's that's why you see the things that go on on this planet and in this universe. And why would god ever let this, these things happen and all this stuff? It's because it's a screwed up universe and we don't belong in it. We're not part of this universe, but we find it interesting as a universe. So we become interested, and at the point that we become interested, we give up our own determinism to a degree, sometimes a great degree, in order to play the game in the physical universe. Because if you're not on the chessboard, what are you going to be doing?
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, you said. I think you mentioned this in a message to me. You said that by doing nots you can stop internet attacks, and I imagine it's. I think you're actually talking about like physical internet, like computer attacks, right? Not this psychic stuff. What the hell were you talking about there?
Speaker 2:Okay, what was?
Speaker 1:the quote again. Well, you just said something like I mentioned how I was getting internet attacks uh, yeah, problems with my computer and you were saying knots can help you with that or something like that sure, how can? How could not stop osa from attacking my computer. How can, how?
Speaker 2:could not stop osa from attacking my computer. Well, I can't go into the details, unfortunately, but the fact of the matter is, is that electrons are easy, easy to push around and as a day, and from a knots perspective, um well, I don't even say from a knot's perspective, let's just look at it from a, an axiom's perspective. Is that a thetan can be anything. It could be a box, it could be a graphics card, it could be a, a peace lily, it could be a pillowcase. I mean, you can convince a thetan that they're anything.
Speaker 2:And that's the beauty and that's the downfall of a spiritual being is that they're really really capable, but they can be really really dumb at the same time. And to have that kind of ability can be a double-edged sword technology and you were going to use it for your own means as, uh, you're less than positive government entity or black ops, or black shadow government or whatever. That's one hell of a weapon and it has been on the whole track since the early days and that's what we're trying to unwind on knots and on excalibur and and so on. Is that type of phenomena, because a dayton can be duped into being anything.
Speaker 1:Well, hold on a second I thought these internet attacks that I'm talking about um well, I was kind of assuming that it's just physical hardware, viruses or remotely controlling my computer, but you're suggesting that some of it can actually be entity possibly messing with my computer sure okay all right, you know that that's probably unreal to most of our listeners.
Speaker 2:uh, but it's. It's because the fact of the matter is that when you get into the upper end of the bridge, or you even do LRH's original OT4, 5, and 6, which are right after OT3 originally that's when you did them he demonstrates, as you demonstrate, that these potentials are extant, has you demonstrate that these potentials are extant. So, with that in mind, it's not like you have to wait until the end of the bridge to get the toy prize and the box of Cracker Jacks because it's right after OT3. And these are things that he has you do, that he has you present and manifest as an OT in order to finish that OT level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, this is why when you hear Leah Remini talk about the crappiness of the OT levels and she's just talking about the church and that it's just amazing, because you're just like, wow, how do you attest to anything if you haven't got something out of it, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I'm saying is she's never done real scientology, so why even listen to her?
Speaker 1:because she, she, it's all relative, yeah, and I don't feel like she's that ethical as well, because I feel like with me, I would like like what. I guess what kind of what happened to me was was I did. I did the grades and I sort of started to run into some problems and I saw things were not quite right and I started asking questions and I didn't get up to OT3 or OT5 and then be involved for 20 years and blow it all happened within five years. Because I'm actually like ethical and I'm like hold on, well, I'm not going to attest to this if I don't feel like I've achieved that and something's not quite wrong here, and you know what I mean, whereas these other people they just go all the way up and it's like like I heard one lady who said that she was doing ot, I don't know, t3 or something, probably ot2, and she she just went out for a coffee and like she went out to do this, this drill, and she did it for like half an hour and she's supposed to do it for like three hours or whatever.
Speaker 1:And then she just went and bought, went shopping, and then came back and attested to it. And I was just thinking, wow, you really have bad moral fibers, like the fact that you are treating your OT levels like this and it's like, yeah, ok, the church did some wrong things and you criticize in the church, but also, man, you were quite the accomplice in there.
Speaker 2:Like you were the one who was supposed to be drilling OT exercises and you were gone shopping. It's so outrageous, right? Well, like LRH says, there's only two ways you can be wrong being there and communicating. So that pretty much solves that. I mean, you know, lrh is the ultimate distiller of concepts, and that's what that is being there and communicating. Well, they were in the church, they were doing things they shouldn't have been doing and they weren't doing their OT levels. So they were being there and communicating, doing those things. Okay, boom, end of story. That's the ultimate end game.
Speaker 2:Phenomena of the whole thing is that these people are there, they're in a suppressive environment, they're PTS, and then they're not even doing what they're supposed to be doing on top of it. And you can't go PTS to something unless you've committed an overt against it. Okay, so let's roll this back. So how would I handle somebody like that? Or Leah Rameen? I'd go back and I'd find out where were they last doing? Well, and then I'd prep, check the area and I'd probably do quad roots and overts, you know, and do a life repair on her and straighten her out and find out what she didn't get and clear up her basic words in scientology and I guarantee you she probably doesn't even know how to define thetan or something like that. You know, that's. That's what it all comes down to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah or she might be able to say some rote definition of satan, like it's a blah, blah, blah, but she doesn't actually have a conceptual understanding of the idea satan you know, right, right and that comes down to what we talked about in one of the earlier podcasts is if you're doing scientology and you're not being honest with yourself, you're screwed.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, yeah, exactly, and I think, and then I think that's a lot of these people like the Scientology, and you're not being honest with yourself, you're screwed. Yes, exactly, yeah, exactly. And I think, and then I think that's a lot of these people like the Chris Shelton's and the Leah Remini's and stuff. They don't have a lot of personal integrity in that. That's how they got so far into it, in that they weren't honest with themselves and stuff and where someone like me who's just honest, who bluntly says shit, just can get into heaps of trouble early and then leave. You know what I mean? Like, because I've got a lot of personal integrity, I've got that. What's that? What's the thing? Oh, the code of honor. Oh, like, I stick to that hardcore. You know what I mean. It's just I naturally do it. It's just who I am. There's other people. They don't have that code of honor in there.
Speaker 2:you know right, and that comes back to the interpretation of the written word, and I don't mean written word from a gospel standpoint, I just mean from the written word and and and or the spoken word. Because where a person is at on the tone scale and we talked about this in the last podcast where they're at on the tone scale has everything to do with the way that they duplicate what it is that they read, because they're seeing it through the lenses of the tone level that they're at and so they may be misinterpreting everything they read because they're putting it through this filter of this tone level. And that's why 50% of the gains are from training and 50% of the gains are from training and 50% of the gains are from processing. And, like LRH says, what do you get when you get somebody who's not trained and they're an OT? They're a big dumb thetan. And that's what you run into with these people is they don't understand the technology behind it in order to stay out of the trap. They just got out of the trap and then they start winding back down the drain again.
Speaker 2:That's the problem with Leah Remini is she's not a trained auditor and she's easily she's easily duped by people who you know. They have the ability to manipulate and tell them what they want to hear in order to get her to do what they want her to do, and all you know. And it just goes on and on. I feel bad for her. I think she's a super capable individual. She's got a lot of horsepower, but it's misguided and with a lot of these people it's misguided and they need they need to get straightened out and you know, I don't really have any interest in in straightening these people out. From an auditor's standpoint, I mean, I wouldn't refuse them, but it's.
Speaker 2:That's the issue, that's what you're dealing with, and it isn't going to get any better. Uh, fighting people like this. At some point you just have to to shut YouTube off or shut the TV off, or whatever, and find new people and start fresh. And okay, take two, we're going to do this and this is how we're going to do it. We're going to do it the way the old man says and we're not going to do anything else. And we're going to get you up the bridge. And we're not only going to get you up the bridge, we're going to train you. We're going to have you co-audit because you're going to learn how to do it as you do it, and that's the thing. It's both sides of the bridge and the most dangerous people to Scientology ever, ever in the field. The biggest critics of Scientology have always been the ones that received Scientology but never understood and learned what it was behind what they had received. They are the ones who have brought Scientology down.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, okay. So I've got two more things I want to ask you. I want to wrap up this thing where you're talking about your past life, right, okay, like, because you said you've worked with LRH and stuff, and I want you to say, like, what that was like and what things happened and what he was like and stuff, um, and I want you to say, like, what, what that was like and, uh, what things happened and what he was like and stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, um, long and the short of it. Um, I enjoyed Scientology and I I did Scientology almost 24, seven, three, 65. It was the funnest game I'd had last lifetime. I'm not upset about leaving the game when I did, for whatever reason it was. The fact of the matter is, if I wasn't here today in a new body, a younger body probably, more specifically, I think that that would have been a bad thing and I might not have any Scientology to come back to. And I come back and I'm trying to put it here and keep it here for myself and for other people, because it's that important and I wouldn't have been able to do that turning gosh, probably 80-something. So everything happens for a reason. I know a lot of people don't like that expression, but if Satan postulates and perceives and in some inextricable way, it happened the way that it did and I'm glad that it happened the way that it did, because now I have a lot more comparable magnitudes than I would have had otherwise.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so you were on post at the Old St Hill, right.
Speaker 2:I was a public at Old St Hill. I did help out with things. I was one of the early adopters of the Sea Org. I was on the ship and dropped the body remotely from the ship when I died. I wasn't on the ship when I died, but I was in the Sea sea org at the time and that's the proximity. Uh was very close to where I was born, which was, you know, east africa. So it was, you know, a stone's throw away and found my dad, who I had had past experience with, on the track. Uh, some of it positive, some of it negative, but I recognized him as an old ally and uh, within two years of me being in the family, he picked up a dianetics book, went to a lecture and started doing scientology, and so I was in scientology again.
Speaker 1:Um, so hold on in Scientology again. Um, so hold on a second. So, just out of curiosity, why weren't you on the ship? Oh, you, you passed away off the ship cause you were probably in a hospital or something, right? Yeah, okay, um and uh, what so were you? Uh, what posts were you doing while you were on the ship?
Speaker 2:Honestly I don't know what the post was. I haven't run across anything in session that demonstrated that to me clearly. I think, based off of what I can pull out of it at this very moment talking to you, it had something to do with Super Cargo, which would have been the Org exec sec later on down the road. So I was involved in that area somewhere Might have been. I can't say that I was supercargo, but I was up there on the org board and I was one of the early, early adopters of it and um of of the Sea Org and in so doing I was privy to do, to do some of the upper level activities, having gone clear in 56 and things like that. So I was in in a pretty good position to help LRH out with those things. And you know who would say no to help LRH out with those things and who would say no.
Speaker 2:And LRH was and is one of my best friends. He wasn't perfect. I don't think anybody is. I've never met anybody that was more willing to take on a level of responsibility for so many people and do the things that he did. I've never met anybody that comes even close this lifetime. I think he was a really great guy, really intelligent guy, and he was an actor in his own play that he didn't know what he was doing when he got started and one thing led to another and he talked to a lot of people. I don't think that LRH was an MI6 operative.
Speaker 1:I don't agree.
Speaker 2:I don't agree with that. I'm not saying Scott's crazy or anything like that, but I don't. I didn't see that in him uh at all.
Speaker 1:But um, I I don't think mankind has ever had a a better friend, and that's not just pr, that's, that's how I feel, and I miss him greatly yeah, well, well, I think the um the evidence indicates that he was a former naval intelligence officer and that he left and did his own thing and they were shitting themselves because he knew stuff, that intelligence officers know and stuff. And it seems like instantly from 50 onwards. The government did not like him and what he was doing, because he was you know he knew about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he'd gone rogue and stuff. Yeah them. Yeah, you're going rogue and stuff. Um, yeah, so have you have? Have you do you know what your name was in your past life and have you looked up the records of people who were at saint hill at that time and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:I don't. I have not been able to pull my name out on it, but I've never had any auditing on it. It you know. It was one of those things that if it came up, it came up, if it didn't, it didn't. Um, my original clear date was incorrect and then I got that corrected. When I started ot5, which is part of the one of the first steps of ot5, uh is to properly date your when you went clear and everything like that. Um, it's, it just hasn't had any importance to me because what's in a name? It's dust and bones and all that stuff, so I've never really put a lot of attention on it. I'm sure I could probably come up with it in session, but sitting here right now I could tell you that I was female, but that's about it.
Speaker 1:All right, and you obviously agree that PDH does exist and people are getting sent into Scientology to bring it down.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yeah, I think that that's the case. I don't see any reason why it would be anything else. Just that's my knowingness. My perception is is that's what's happening and I'll stick to that yep, um and uh with the, the ot8 the church delivers.
Speaker 1:Is there any Indies who deliver that exact same OT8 that the church delivers? Or do Indies just totally think that the church has just issued us tech and they don't use it?
Speaker 2:I don't think that there's any semblance of resemblance to what the church is delivering as OT8. I think that would be a really bad idea and I think that what we have in the field is as ot8. There's a couple of different versions and I think they're all. They all have their. Their merits are all best guesses. Um, as to what ot8 should be, and I'm I don't think it would hurt anybody to do any of the versions that are out there as well as looking at Excalibur, which was the next logical step for me. I can't speak for anybody else, but I think whatever the church has got is solely designed to keep them on the comeback, much like the pharmaceutical industry does in the medical field. It doesn't solve the problem, it just keeps them coming back. That's pretty much what's happened to the church.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and there's many things that the church does as well that mirror corporations and the way SPs operate, in that they just push for monopolies of fields and they just treat their people like crap. Yeah, pierre Etienne, like he well, he talks about some of his like he talks about OT9, ot10, ot11, that sort of stuff. How can he talk about these things like was he privy to them within the church, like he managed to see these secret OT levels, because I remember, I think on OT11 or something you mentioned, it's about remote viewing. I mean, how the hell does he know that?
Speaker 2:I really couldn't say, because when I talked to him in 2005, unless he was withholding the information from me, which is a possibility, I don't know why he would based off of the candor of conversation that we were having at the time, the several, uh candor, being very upfront and very honest, uh forthright, uh they were, they were of. You know, the conversations had a very good candor to them. C-a-n-d-o-r. Um, I don't think that he knew at the time. Um, he had told me that the original ot8 materials had been, uh, disposed erroneously and then he reneged on that a year or two later.
Speaker 2:Why, I don't know. I haven't spoken to him in several years. Uh, I think he's a very fine person but, um, you know it's, it's one of those things. I mean. There's other things that I could say that would be very impolite to say so, so I will refrain from saying those things, but the proof is in the pudding as far as that goes, and I don't think that the CBR materials have any semblance of all of the answers either. I think Pierre's OT levels are probably based from his viewpoint and his training, which is far greater than mine.
Speaker 1:Does Pierre say that he actually wrote them himself, or does he say that he pinched them from the church?
Speaker 2:No, he wrote them himself based off of the data that he has.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't mean to get into criticizing, then, so he's so. He criticized captain bill for writing the some of the ot levels himself, yet at the same time he's doing the same thing well, that's.
Speaker 2:I can't argue with you. That's a fact and it's an indication that there's something going on there it's just interesting, it's just it's interesting because you get.
Speaker 1:I mean, as indies, we have to come together and stop fighting because it's like, if right, unless someone's actually says, hey, I was there in the 80s. I actually stole these ot materials from the church. I've got them. These are the original LIHOT materials which no one seems to be claiming, are they? No one's saying they did that.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I'll give you a prime example. I mean, nobody has anything valid other than one issue that is out there that has an OT8 routing, that's on the internet and comes with all of the upper bridge materials, that, that that has the routing for ot8. That's the only issue and it is the best issue, and I think we talked about that in the last show that that, uh, it has the simplicity that you would expect to see on ot8. Um, it's an and it's a great issue, and I have to go back and read it every couple of months because it, as is, is so much for me and I'm like, god damn, what did that just?
Speaker 1:say, oh, that was, yeah, it was about um, why satan's mock-up? Yeah?
Speaker 2:why satan's, and that's that. That is as close as we can get to what OT8 is about. But to give you a prime example, we came across a former Class 12 estate sale. The Class 12 had been one of the original Class 12s that flagged. The Class 12 had been one of the original Class 12s at Flag and they had had basically a treasure trove of notes and references and everything like that for the original Ls and we spent months putting them together to codify them and everything like that.
Speaker 2:And I went public with it that we had gotten l11 put together and there were some parts to l11 that everybody in the field was missing because the l's were put put together by memory alone. And then when I said this, I was immediately attacked from multiple directions, uh, pierre being one of them, which, uh, you know. Hey, that's fine, if you want to attack me on something, I'm just telling you I've got something that the field doesn't have and it I don't own it, so I can't give it to you. Somebody else does that I'm working with and I've I've signed a nondisclosure agreement to that. That wise on it. And I'm not saying you know, we have something you don't, but being immediately attacked, it gives you a barometer of what we're dealing with in the field, because it's dog eat dog, and until that stops we will not get anywhere, as scientologists in the field and scientology will flounder, if not sink. That's my opinion.
Speaker 2:And then that particular incident, more than any of the others, really brought that to my attention that until we can all agree and work together, you know, and I've had people say, well, why don't you give us this particular portion of L11 so that we can do it. Well, it's not mine to give, or I would, and that's what I've said, and that's up to the person who owns that particular reference. So you know, it's very much the same thing. Like you're saying that Pierre has said that some negative things about CVR's bridge, but he's making his own bridge at the same time. So this this competitive, almighty dollar thing gets in the way every time.
Speaker 2:And until we can get around that, I'm working on putting together an auditor's summit sometime with any luck, next year to where we can get all of the major players in the same room, get their rudiments in, get their cramming rudiments in, clean everybody up and get everybody on the same page so that we're all working together in a unified front. And that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to agree with everyone on everything. But if we're all not working in the same direction and we're, we're not there to help each other, get them some free auditing if they need it, whatever the deal is, and everybody's going to have to pony up and say you know, I'm not always right, I've been wrong sometimes in the past, me included. Nobody's perfect. But if we don't work together soon, there's not going to be anything left?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, yeah well, I think that's a great idea for a summit for auditors because, um, it would just be good for you to all communicate and I imagine it would definitely increase your knowledge and your like as a whole of working out whatever you know you're doing. It would have to help you, all you know, to hear what this person's doing, even if you disagree with it, but just to know what that person's doing, what they think and what this person thinks, I think that would be a really good idea. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sit in a circle of chairs and have a mediator and go all right. So, pierre, how do you feel about this? And what do you think about so-and-so and you know that sort of a thing and get this out in the open and everything, instead of all of this backstabbery and not sharing PC folders and not being up front and you know, having problems with other people and what they've either created or found or researched or whatever. I mean it's just. Everybody needs to get over their own egos and get along and do what.
Speaker 2:LRH said build a better bridge.
Speaker 1:And the same thing happens in the UFO community, because people have their UFO groups and they want to find out the truth and they have the exact same like. Literally they'll be like saying oh, stephen Greer thinks blah, blah, blah, this person thinks blah, blah, blah, and they all. Because they're all just trying to find out the truth. But they have different ideas. And then of course, they have the big thing in that there's a huge third party there just trying to bring them down and make them all fight. But I think it says something really big that there's no indies that are using the OTA that the church are using. I mean, isn't that just a really bad like?
Speaker 2:it's implied that the church must have a really bad OT8?. Yeah well, there's no indies using the original OT1 either.
Speaker 1:There's several different points on the Hold on a second what. There's no indies using the original OT1?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that the church uses the church's original OT-1, which is far different from LRH's OT-1.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, but that yeah, oh yeah, okay, yeah, cool, I thought you meant the actual original proper OT-1, no, indies are using it.
Speaker 2:No, I would have thought no, yeah, what the Church uses. Their version of quote ot1 is far different than lrh's version wow, yeah, they mess with it there's no, no similarity whatsoever yep so wow, anyway, any other questions?
Speaker 1:um, I, I do have some more. I mean, it's up for you if you want to do one more. I have enough questions for one more. Uh, I mean, I mean the whole first hour we went into this epic deepness. It was just like whoa, um, are you up for doing a?
Speaker 2:uh, a part four um, if, if the questions are worthy, that's fine well, it's more.
Speaker 1:I've got some questions about sort of more. There's some tech relation stuff like Power Rundown, cchrd, and then a little bit about Markabians. But I mean I think I want to do it. I think I mean I'm keen on doing it. It's up to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's shoot for like two weeks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, thanks. Yeah, let's shoot for like two weeks. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, all right. Thanks for speaking to me, jonathan Burke. That was good. If anyone wants to get audited by you, they can go to the website. The advanced organization, the Great Plains.
Speaker 2:Yep, ao-gporg, or travelingknotsauditor at unseen, knots. Auditor at unseen. Un s e e n dot I s is our email address, or they can find me on facebook. We have a facebook page which is under the advanced org of the great plains and we respond with facebook messenger pretty promptly. So any of those, those different comm lines.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, and I want to ask you in the next interview about CST and what happened to LRH in the 80s. Yeah, anyway, all right, I'll see you later.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, bye-bye, see you.
Speaker 1:Bye-bye. All right, so that was the interview with Jonathan Burke. It was part three with Jonathan Burke. I hope you liked it. I liked it. The first hour and a half was whoa was deep.
Speaker 1:Now, before we end off, we've got an LRH quote the purpose of the mind is to solve problems relating to survival. Intelligence is the ability of an individual group or race to resolve problems relating to survival. And that's from the original thesis, dianetics, the original thesis by Orin Hubbard. That's a very fundamental quote and I think it is life-changing. I think because you sort of know then what to do with your life. You've got to solve problems relating to your survival. So you've got to look around and solve problems, and that the more intelligent you are is the more problems you can solve. And you might look at a homeless person on the side of the street and you can tell that their ability to solve problems is very low. That's why they're barely surviving. But someone who's made a success of themselves off their own bat, or even someone who doesn't want to really make much of a success of themselves, but they're surviving just fine. And you know they've got some intelligence. They can solve problems, and every day.
Speaker 1:I think Scientologists do this a lot. I mean, you sort of learn it from doing the whole battle plan thing. You just learn to tick off things off that list. You learn to solve problems boom, boom, boom, boom. Because because you can argue that anything's a problem like if you have to pay a phone bill, it's a problem, even though it's not really like a complicated problem, but it's like it's still something you have to do, it's something that needs attention. And you just go through that list and just tick off boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And if you just keep on solving problems like let's, you've got a problem with your carpet or whatever. You solve that. The next day you paint the wall. The next day you pay your phone bill. The next day you get a new job. The next day you buy new pants. You just tick off a list of problem after problem after problem. You keep on solving them. Eventually you're pretty damn good. And at start you might be shit, yeah, but after you keep on solving problems more and more and more, you build a great life around yourself.
Speaker 1:You have a car that doesn't have problems with it. You have glasses that aren't broken. You have glasses that aren't scratched. You have glasses that aren't broken. You have glasses that aren't scratched. You have taps that aren't broken. You have intellectual ideas that you understand because you looked them up, you studied them. So that's what upturned people do and that's what you do. You just continue doing things and solving problems and it's great. So that's a really good quote. I'll just read it out again because it's deep.
Speaker 1:The purpose of the mind is to solve problems relating to survival. Intelligence is the ability of an individual group or race to resolve problems relating to survival. And that's a really good quote as well, because it defines what intelligence is. Because I've come across some people who have really high IQs, yet they're idiots, like they're aberrated, they're sickos and they don't look like they're surviving well, and I don't think they have a good ability to solve problems related to survival. Well, and I don't think they have a good ability to solve problems related to survival. I just think they have some super memory so they're able to appear to be smart, but not really smart. You know there are people with Asperger's, with like autism, and they have really high IQs, but that's not intelligence. They're not really intelligent.
Speaker 1:L Ron Hubbard is saying right here in this quote. He's saying smartness is your ability to solve problems relating to your survival, and that's what a damn well is. I absolutely agree with that, because if you look at someone who can do a mass equation really well and they have an IQ of like 145, yet they don't know that much about the world and they haven't even checked their mailbox and their house is a mess or something, to me that person's unintelligent. I'm not going to call that person intelligent he's not but you might come across someone who maybe doesn't have a super high IQ and maybe wasn't that good at maths at school, but you look around and he's in a house and all these problems have been solved. He's in a good house and he's got a good family and he's solved all these problems relating to survival and he's got a good job and stuff. That guy's intelligent Okay, because it's kind of hard working at. There's like a difference. I think there are some people who are witty or maybe yeah, witty, but they're not really intelligent. It's different, it's interesting and if you look at how much everyone have achieved in his life really makes you realize how intelligent he was, because it's just like wow, he solved a lot of problems relating to survival and a whole lot more. He didn't just survive, he did a lot more than that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that's it for the podcast. It's time for you to climb back out of this rabbit hole, out of this interesting Scientology world. If you have any good Scientology news, facebook posts or jokes, then send them to andynulch at hotmailcom. Send in those wins, those auditing wins. Thanks for listening. I've been your host, andy Nulch, the Space Cowboy. You have been listening to the Indie Scientology Podcast and until next time, keep evolving and get up that bridge. © BF-WATCH TV 2021. Thank you.