Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE10EP18 - Unburdening the Thetan: The True Cost of Mental Mass
What if you could harness the power of your imagination to create the life you desire? Join us on a journey through the fascinating world of Independent Scientology as Arthur shares his transformative experience with clay demos, revealing how this unique exercise helped him conquer cigarette addiction by unraveling the positive aspects of his habit. We explore the intriguing concepts of intentional and unintentional mass, using engaging examples like dream boards and architectural models, and introduce Quenton's innovative idea of "producing on purpose" (POP). Through this lens, we examine how the intentional creation of mass can serve as a powerful tool for shaping our reality.
Discover the profound impact that clay demos can have on personal growth and problem-solving. By physically manifesting issues with clay, such as financial struggles or misunderstandings, we delve into Scientology and Dianetics principles to highlight how this practice leads to mental clarity and as-is-ness. We also discuss the art of clay table clearing and its alignment with Dianetics' goals of achieving erasure and realizations. Unravel the mysteries of the mind as we discuss the transformative potential of these techniques in resolving life's persistent challenges and misunderstandings, offering listeners practical insights into creating meaningful change.
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Hi everyone and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast brought to you by the Advanced Org of the Great Plains and the College of Independent Scientologycom. This is Season 10, episode. I always look and then I forget which one. It is Episode 18, to get it right. It is episode 18, to get it right, and I'm here with Quentin and Arthur and we are going to do I don't know what the working title is going to be, but it's going to be about mass and mental mass.
Speaker 1:So, arthur, this was your topic and we just hit the record button. We didn't talk about this at all, which is not our traditional way. But, uh, given, given all of the circumstances that we have going on, quentin's traveling and, and he's borrowing an office and everything he's in, uh, where are you at manila, right? No, philippines, yep, so he's going to be talking a little softer, but he, he, you know, 75 of it is showing up and quentin's showing up even though he's traveling. So we's going to be talking a little softer, but he, you know, 75% of it is showing up and Quentin's showing up even though he's traveling. So we're going to give him an A plus on that. So thank you for doing that, quentin. So mass, tell us about mass and what you want to converse about mass, mental mass, et cetera. Arthur.
Speaker 2:Well, I've kind of realized it's a much bigger subject than meets the eye. So when we do the um, study tech, we're taught about the absence of mass, and so we do the clay demos to create mass um, and then and then recently I had a little life situation pop up and you gave me a bit of homework around something I should be having more control over, which included a clay demo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Should we. If you don't want to, we don't have to, that's fine Look.
Speaker 2:I don't mind discussing it All right. So this is it. So I have to reduce my cigarette smoking and so john gave me an um uh, clay demo, an assignment to do, to create a clay demo on the benefits of smoking. And so of course you know that that in itself has given me a lot of thought. How do you create something like that out of plasticine? And then I thought a lot about it, because then we get situations in life where we get unintentional mass added to us through situations we have an energetic mass that comes on. So now we've got two approaches We've got an unintentional mass being delivered to our body that we accept, and then we've got intentional mass to try and understand something, and I'm guessing they both have different weights.
Speaker 2:But then I thought what about actually taking it a step further and creating actual intentional mass? Right, people do like um, um dream boards or, you know, architects will do models of a building um to show, to show mass. So it's not a new topic, but I'm curious to see what the scientology perspective is around mass itself. And how big is the topic really as outside of just the learning and outside of, say, just the traumatic past experiences um, how big of a topic actually, is it? How can you use it? How can you use it? You know, god created man from clay, right? You know what I mean? He made the first clay figurine before he put life into it. So that was an intentional creation. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:He did a clay demo.
Speaker 2:That's right. So how could we use this topic to create mass? Outside of you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Interesting. It's an interesting topic and it is. That is very interesting. Wow, it's a huge topic.
Speaker 3:go ahead, quinn. So it's interesting because, even as you're talking about it now and you use these examples of um clay, demo and stuff like that, which I think is is a very good gradient to understanding and working with intentional mass, as you called it, and mocking something up, is interesting because I've always looked at it as a mental thing, right, and it's something where back years ago it was probably back gosh, maybe 15, 20 years ago now I used to do this thing called pop and I would snap my finger, I'd go pop, pop and pop stood for producing on purpose, right, producing on purpose POV.
Speaker 3:And so if I saw a car that I liked, or if I saw a person that I wanted or something like that, I'd be like pop, oh, I popped that, you know like that, and I would kind of mock it up, if you will, for myself. So if it's somebody else's car, and I'm fine with that, but if it's somebody else's car and I wanted it or something like it, I would mock it up for myself and I would create the mass for me, like it would be mine, right, it would be mine, right, it would be mine. And I wasn't dependent upon the matter M-A-T-T-E-R. I wasn't dependent upon the matter in order to have it, if that makes sense. So to me, that's how I've always kind of liked it.
Speaker 3:It was something that, with everything, really, how I've always kind of liked it, it was something that, with everything, really, you mock it all up, right, this is all you're making, right, and it's all imagination, if you will, that you're making anything in your life, good, bad or indifferent. And so, yeah, I think this is a really good topic to have for us as Scientologists, where we want to, like, create something different for ourselves, just a different experience for ourselves in life. Um, so let's, let's, let's talk about, let's get some mass on this well, because I got thinking more about it as well.
Speaker 2:So what's the idea of of creating clay demos to help you understand? Yeah, it's to create understanding. And so how many obstacles do we have in life that we can exactly as you were saying, we can naturally create that mass, like we all have abilities to naturally create. Let's say we have 100 things we can create mass. We could probably naturally create, say, 50 of those, but what about those 50 that we struggle with, that we want those, but what about those 50 that we struggle with, that we want? You know, could it be as simple as making a demo to really to really apply those things that we struggle with, you know, like for me to stop smoking, for example?
Speaker 2:Create a clay demo and as I'm creating, things will start evolving in my being and I'll create a new form of energy within me and a new way of thinking as I'm molding. At the same time, my understanding will shift and I'll have realizations while I'm doing it. And so what if we took it, say, other struggles, like, say, money struggles, for example, how would you create a clay demo to really put in an understanding of what money is or what relationships should look like according to you, um, so on, and so on, and so on, like you could really take this to quite a new level, I reckon right, if it's not already that way well, it is, and we have to, uh, roll back to about 1951, 1952, with the scientology and dianetic axioms and I'm going to just visit the ones that apply to this, but it's, it's going to be axiom 11, which is the states of being, isness, alter isness, not isness as isness.
Speaker 1:So if something reads on a meter, anything that doesn't read on a meter won't run as a process. The reason why the meter reads and Quentin is on his solo course right now and he's just right on the precipice of of the meter issues what's happening is. That's why it's important, that's why I said that q is if it's reading, there's a disagreement there. That disagreement that shows up Because it is an alter is Because if it wasn't showing up, there wouldn't be anything there to run because there's no mass. And so it shows up and manifests on the meter as a small fall, fall long, fall, long fall, blow down or, in some cases, an instant FN, depending on what you're auditing Dianetics or Scientology. So, in that wise, if you have something that you misunderstand, on course let's say it's a word. Did I say something you didn't understand? Artie?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I'm just going to the tech dictionary.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, in that wise, when you have a misunderstood word, what's happening? When you have a misunderstood word, there's an alter isness going on there, there's a disagreement, there's mental mass being created because misunderstood words or disagreements, even if you don't have a misunderstood word, because sometimes you can read something and go wait, wait, what what's being said there? You might understand all of the words that are being said in a sentence or a paragraph, but you can't quite put your finger on what LRH is trying to say. For one reason or another there can be many, but what you need to do is either clear the words and make sure that you have a total understanding of them, because what you're doing when you're clearing a word and it's the exact same definition of clear when a person is clear, they no longer have their wait for it reactive mind Okay. Now when you're clearing a word, it reactive mind Okay. Now when you're clearing a word, that word is a portion of the reactive mind. Until you understand it fully, it goes from an alter is-ness to an as-is-ness as you clear the word. As-is-ness means clearing. You're getting rid of that mass Now, by extension. You're getting rid of that mass Now, by extension. Already, situation with the benefits of smoking or doing any type of clay demo.
Speaker 1:Lrh approached this from the viewpoint of clay table clearing. This is what's done on the Key to Life course LRH's version Clay table clearing, clay table clearing. So if you can put something in clay completely, you can, as is the situation, just like you can when you're clearing a word, and sometimes you might need to do it over and over and over until you get a cognition or a realization. A cognition, along with typically a floating needle and very good indicators with the person, means that that has keyed out. We're not looking for a key out with clay table clearing. We're looking for an erasure of whatever mass is being created, because for it to persist, there has to be a lie behind it. Anything to persist has to have an alter, is off of it, and if you can spot that fully and go okay, here it is poof you have an erasure. You might as well be doing Dianetics in getting erasure. Scientology is a key out. Dianetics is an erasure.
Speaker 1:Clay table clearing is also an erasure, because what you're doing to get anything to cease to persist, you have to mock it up on top of itself. If you have a headache, put a headache there and the headache will go away. Okay, now, that only works to the degree that you match it. You duplicate it. So clay table clearing is you getting yourself to put it into the physical universe and the changes can be nothing short of just bloody miraculous, because you're putting it on top of it, going aha. There it is, I've seen people go ahead qu. There it is. I've seen people go ahead, quentin.
Speaker 3:No, finish your flow.
Speaker 1:I've seen people who have done definitions of word on key to life. My former girlfriend spent a year full-time a year full-time, 10 to 10, doing the definitions that need to be done on a clay table, clearing on key to life. It can take that long for some people in some circumstances. That is not typical, but that goes to show you how far the understanding has to come for a person to get an as-is-ness. Typically it might take a couple iterations of those clay representations to get it handled until you get an as-is-ness. Now. There were extenuating circumstances in that, so don't worry, you're not going to be on Clay Table for a year to our listeners if you do something.
Speaker 1:But if you've got a problem, whether it's a body problem or it's a problem in life, you have to use clay table in order to get an as isness. If short of anything else, this is something you can. You can do, okay, because if you, if you, understand something, you can put it in clay. If you don't understand something, you can't put it in clay. And that's when the course supervisor, your twin, comes up and goes I don't see it. And they're like well, what don't you see? It's all no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell me.
Speaker 3:Show me, that's what lies so let me just jump in because because this is so good for a number of different reasons. So you know, I'm from Alabama, right, and you got to talk plain to me, right, and so I kind of like to kind of simplify things in such a way where, think about how we speak and how many times have we got into a disagreement? You talked about these disagreements that happen in the mind, disagreements that happen in the mind. How many times have we gotten into a disagreement with somebody or whatever, and you'd be like God, this feels so heavy. Or you're in a relationship and you want the relationship to feel loving and light and wonderful, but it's like, oh, this is feeling so heavy. What is that? What is the heavy, right, that's?
Speaker 3:the mass, that's the mass right. And so naturally, almost, we kind of get into this place where we recognize that something is being added onto this. This is not how it's supposed to be, there's some kind of alter. Is this happening here? And I don't like it, damn it. And I don't like it, damn it. And you kind of get this whole thing where it's like even in our regular day-to-day which is why I love Scientology, because it shows you, it helps you understand what's really going on. But even in our regular day-to-day we feel the heaviness of stress and of whatever's going on in our jobs or what's going on in our financial lives or whatever. And all of these are things that's happening, right?
Speaker 3:So axiom number three when Jonathan brought up axioms, axiom number three says space, energy, objects, form and time are the result of considerations made and or agreed upon or not by the static and are perceived solely because the static considers it can perceive them. So catch this. So money matters. Let's look at your money, let's look at your finances for a second, because you know I like money. And so when we're looking at finances and people start to worry about finances, right, People start to worry about whether or not I have enough, or whether or not it's going to be enough, or whatever, whatever. And the reason why it stresses people out almost to the point of exhaustion and or demise is because money can be very as a particle, it's just a consideration. Money is just a consideration, but it's so closely connected with people's survival that they look at a lack of or less than money as a survival decrease.
Speaker 3:This is interesting. So I have less particles, you can call it a paper bag, you can call it anything. Right, I have less particles and I survive less. This is the thought right. But we understand that these things are only the result of considerations per. Axiom three and then axiom five says energy consists of postulated particles in space. So if you go in and you start mocking this up, if you go in and you start creating this worry, this angst, this anxiety, this whatever stuff, it gets really heavy on you and it can interrupt what you're trying to do as a being. Get this.
Speaker 1:Now it it. We're going to have to explain it when you finish. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, we're on it because it becomes so heavy to a person which I know exactly where you go with this GPM but it becomes so heavy on a person that they can start to create their own tug of war with themselves. We call it self-sabotage at times, right? They kind of start to sabotage themselves. They start to sabotage their own desires, their own goals, their own objectives. They start to sabotage themselves. This happens over and over and over again.
Speaker 3:Now, when Jonathan said well, okay, if you can duplicate something you used about clay, if you can duplicate something so entirely that it, as is the problem, is no longer a problem, right, think about this.
Speaker 3:You put it on top of anything. Now, I do this a lot in relationships, right, I do this a lot in relationships where you have a disagreement with your 2D, right, with your relationship, and then start to like, actually mirror that person, right, you start to mirror them, right, and what ends up happening is and what I do is I also increase affinity. So there's this thing where you say, um, the rule is to argue head to head, like to argue head to head, so you put your forehead against your 2d's forehead and you continue the argument what were you saying what? And what you'll notice is you cannot argue with the person when you're duplicating them. It just doesn't argue, it doesn't feel like an argument anymore, it actually becomes laughable. And so you put your heads together and you continue the discussion just like this and we do not move until we work it out right. What happens is you're duplicating that person so much that it the argument as is right.
Speaker 1:Well, that, and that also goes with one of the one of the axioms is is the highest affinity that you can have is to occupy the same same space yes it's the same, it's the.
Speaker 1:It's the same thing. So I gotta be careful what I say in a public podcast because I don't wanna give away any spoilers on the bridge. But the thing is, is what you're doing there in that situation, or what you're doing with clay table processing, is you're basically saying to the person how do you do that? Whatever it is Okay. And it said you know the definition of a clear is a being who no longer has their own reactive mind. But he goes on to say shortly after that, when you're getting onto the solo course, in the materials that are given to the pre-OT, you're not a pre-clear anymore, now you're a pre-OT. He also says that a clear can mock up a reactive mind unwittingly, because it's sort of like you had an itch and it's healed, and then you start scratching that area and you start mocking up that problem again.
Speaker 1:And I'm being very rudimentary in this and that's something you have to be careful of is a thetan gets what they postulate. What are you postulating? Okay, how is it that cigarettes are good for you? Show me that. How is it that your lumbosis is persisting? How is it that your lumbosis is persisting? Okay, you're the one putting it there. So if you put it in clay on top of it, guess what? You've created an as-is-ness, you've butted your forehead up to your problem that you put there in the first place the issue that you want to handle by as-is-ing it and putting it in clay, just like that. This is crazy.
Speaker 2:I didn't hear any of that. Can you say that all again? It just cut out while you were saying all that.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. So what I was saying is that when you, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I got you.
Speaker 3:Right, because you do mock up this stuff and you do create your own, your posture stick as you kind of get higher and higher and it just makes so much sense. Perfect example. This might relate to a lot of people listening have you ever been somewhere? I don't know, I'm in the Philippines, so I'll just use this but have you ever been somewhere and you see some ants? And you see the ants and you start think they're crawling on you and so you, you, you're shaking your leg, you're shaking stuff out, you, you, you feel it crawling on your legs or whatever. Whatever it's, they're not touching you, the ants are just walking over there, and yet you can kind of start feeling the creepily crawlies, the creepily crawlies on your leg, stuff like that.
Speaker 3:It's such an interesting phenomenon that you're actually making this thing happen. You're making it happen and it's all for you. So, as we deal with this idea of mass, what ends up happening is that many people don't. Maybe they do, I don't know, but do you really realize how much you're making your life harder? Do you really realize how much you're actually creating your own problems, goals problems, math? You're actually creating your own problems for the purpose of trying to solve them.
Speaker 3:You're mocking up your own problems. So I got, I got to fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dayton's got to have a game. It's just the difference between are you playing a game you don't want to play because that's the only game you have to play, or, after you go clear, you realize okay, this is the game that I am playing and I don't want to play this game. Obviously, I created it and I don't want to play this game. Obviously I created it and I don't want to play it. I want to play another game. So you have to look at it and go okay, this is not a game I want to play. I'm going to play this game instead. But in some cases you have to get the as is-ness of it and look at it. And the microcosm on this, when you're doing clay representations or a clay demo is is the course supervisor one of the students that checks you out and says now, looks at the label and says, no, I don't see it okay. So what do you? What do you immediately get? Go into defense mode.
Speaker 1:you mock up a resistance you mock up a goals, problems, mass, mini in size and go what is it that you don't see? But see? The thing is is, if the supervisor or the twin that's checking you out can't see it, it's what? It's not there, okay, and so you're ridging up on it going, well, okay, and so you're ridging up on it going, well, it's, it's there, don't you see it? No, because if somebody else can't see it, it's not there, and I hope our listeners get this is you have to create that perfect, as is this, so that the person checking you out can see it. If they can't see it, if it isn't obvious, it isn't an as-is-ness. That's the whole point.
Speaker 1:Now, this is the difference. This is mass, this is physical universe mass that you're using to get an as-is-ness, as opposed to you looking at a mental image, picture or a consideration. What have you in auditing, where all it is is it's conceptual, it's not mass per se, it's just in your head. There may be a picture associated with it, there may be feelings, there may be significance, whatever, but that's mass as well. But when you put that in the physical universe, there is no bigger crunch that occurs than when you actually see that in the physical universe because you're creating it perfectly on top of itself. However long it takes, however much you ridge up on it, if you're ridging up on it, you're not looking at it for the way that it truly is.
Speaker 3:That's why it persists and, and that's why auditing. That's why auditing is so valuable, because it gets you and the auditor, the auditor gets you to keep looking at the situation from so many different viewpoints, different perspective, different ways of looking around. What do you see, what do you hear, what do you smell? What is this? However, it works right. You keep looking at it from so many different ways that you totally recreate this. You're recreating it, you're putting it in on top of itself, you're duplicating it, and it can therefore have it erases, which, in dynamics, it erases, and it does not have force with you anymore. This is why auditing is so valuable, because you're not just talking about it.
Speaker 3:And oh, this is what happened with my mama. Oh, and how did you feel about that? Well, I just didn't really feel good about it. And oh, this is what happened with my mama. Oh, and how did you feel about that? Well, I just didn't really feel good about it. You know, she just really made me mad. You know that ain't he gonna do nothing? Right, because there's me I did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's something there that is left uninspected, you know, and and let's just take it. Let's just take it to a little bit more of a reductio ad absurdum, but it is reality that you go out into the world and you're like, oh, these fucking drivers, they just don't know how to drive, they're pieces of shit and they're dumbasses or they're a maniac. Okay, so if you're doing that, you're looking at something from a certain perspective and that is not a pro-survival perspective, and you could say, oh well, who cares about drivers? No-transcript.
Speaker 1:No, no, no no, it's definitely the other driver.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. But see, that's that's. That's the thing. That's the thing. If you don't want to look at it for the way that it is, it isn't going to change. That's it. That's all there is to it. So, whatever it is, that's going on with your interaction with the physical universe and until you get onto the OT levels, you're going to butt heads with the physical universe. You're going to have disagreements, and even on the OT levels and this is why is because, even if you're OT, if you're putting something there, you're putting something there because you're putting something there. And when you get onto the OT levels and this is true for me as well if you're sitting there dramatizing about something for months and months and months and months, I'm talking about myself. Long pause.
Speaker 3:Who's putting it there? Okay, everybody take a moment. Everybody take a moment and go.
Speaker 1:Right, Right, Because here's the thing. Here's the thing is it's out ethics. It's out ethics. You might as well be putting yourself in one of these old torture things. You know the box Torture devices. Where it has all the pointy things on it and they seal you in and it looks like a sort of a human form. But you're doing it to yourself, You're putting it to yourself, You're putting it there and that's out ethics for an OT.
Speaker 3:That's out ethics. That's also why solitary confinement in our modern-day prison system, solitary confinement, is such a horrendous experience for a lot of people, especially people who have their own withholds and overs, because they get put in the hole and when they put in the hole and when they're in the hole they have to they deal with them that stuff and it hits them over and over and over again and it's real mass. I'm telling y'all it's just like a beating. It's just like a beating. In fact, a therapist friend of mine said to me because I was in a 2D situation and there was no physical stuff going on, but he was like, wow, how do you deal with these beatings? I was like I'm not being beat. And he said do you know the definition of that word? Have you cleared the word beat to beat, to beat.
Speaker 3:And when I looked and cleared the word a beating one definition is physical attack, but the other has. It's just a repeated assault. It doesn't have to necessarily be physical. And what my other mother used to always say, she said a man can beat a woman with his fist, but a woman can beat a man with her mouth Right and she will beat him over and over assault, assault, assault, assault, assault, assault. It's a beating. And so when you're talking about this mass and you're in the hole you're in there, you're dealing with your own demons, as it were.
Speaker 1:this is hitting you just like a club, just like a whip, just like a pooh, pooh, pooh, right, and it is not pleasurable, right, and that's the thing is, when something like that occurs and somebody's put into prison and everything like that, and they haven't had anybody there to actually communicate with them, they've just said, well, you're guilty and this is what's going to happen, you're going to be in here for so many years and that will rehabilitate you. No, it just makes things worse. So who's doing the beating up? You are. You're doing the beating up because you're mocking up mental mass. You're buying into narratives, you're buying into situations that I mean, what is a jail? A jail is a house of bad decisions. Somebody made a bad decision and that's how they got there.
Speaker 3:Okay, Everybody take a moment and go, hmm.
Speaker 1:Right, the real question is what caused that person to make that bad decision to wind up in the who's gal?
Speaker 1:That's it. And what does it come down to? And we've said this over and, over and over and over A misunderstood concept, word or symbol. That's it. That's it. And if you were to rehabilitate someone and get that cleared up Now, granted, granted, there are such things as evil purposes and all of that, but at the bottom of an evil purpose, same thing.
Speaker 1:Misunderstood concept, word or symbol. Because there was a prior confusion. Okay, this is what you handle in false purpose rundown. There was a prior confusion. And if you had that person, if you, you, you had a dump truck load of clay taken to a prison and you had core supervisors in there and you had these guys put in clay what it was, that was the prior confusion that led them to do what it was that they did, and that they were using solutions to problems that were based off of earlier misunderstoods, to problems that were based off of earlier misunderstoods. The only way to make money in life was to sell my soul and sell drugs to other people, because that's the only way I'm going to get rich. Okay, there's the prior confusion that's. The only way you can survive is by harming other people with toxic substances and not caring about the person in front of you.
Speaker 1:If you were to do that, you could truly rehabilitate a person just with clay table processing. Now, this podcast isn't about clay table processing, but it is a very strong analog, a comparison to what it is that you're doing in auditing what you're doing in life. If you're putting something out there as a certain way and it is not pro-survival you're the one putting it out there in a certain way which creates mass, the person creating the mass. The mass is an alteration of what truly is. You've just convinced yourself otherwise. At the end of the day, this is all a thing that he does.
Speaker 3:And when. I'm sorry, go ahead. What were you saying?
Speaker 1:And this is all a.
Speaker 2:Thing that he does. I was just going to say I think it's a very powerful skill to learn and it's a very powerful tool that you can apply in pretty much any situation. And the reality of that really hit me when you gave me the assignment. And it wasn't until you gave me the assignment. Not only that, but in my course as well, I've got to do another clay demo as well, and it's funny because even just trying to recreate the clay demo in my mind before I put it into clay is a lot of work as well.
Speaker 1:Right, what are you doing? What are you doing in doing that?
Speaker 2:Well, you're creating the clay demo before you create the clay demo. And the funny thing is, right the moment in past when I've sat down to do clay demos, it's not until I touch it and just start playing with it that things really start to emerge and like, while I'm trying to concoct it in my mind. So then I could just sit down and just smash it out, you know 30 minutes or whatever. It's not until I actually touch it. And then, quite often, when I start touching it and I'm actually pushing it, manipulating it, creating it, that ideas really start flowing and then the concept really starts opening up and then I find I actually make more correct decisions once I've actually got the clay in my hand and as I'm molding it and pushing it and manipulating it, the idea starts to evolve and then the understanding begins to evolve.
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting thing because even just touching it and putting your attention to doing it is when the magic really starts kicking in. So from my end, I've just got to pull a finger out and stop thinking about it and confront the clay demo while being in front of the clay, not confronting it in my mind and then putting it to the clay. You know what I mean. It's like I'm kidding myself and I'm just stalling the inevitable. Yeah, you're queuing in A, you know what I mean. Yeah, you're'm kidding myself and I'm just stalling the inevitable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're queuing in A you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're queuing in A.
Speaker 1:Okay, how am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? I'm going to do it tomorrow. I'm going to do it tomorrow. I'm going to do it tomorrow. Think, think, think, think, figure, figure, figure. Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, yes, which reminds me clay demo, the revised clay demo, where I said you need to put the labels in the clay yeah, yeah, I gotta just do that definitely. Yeah, I forgot about that anyway so, but so so.
Speaker 3:So when you were just talking about, um, these uh, evil purposes and misunderstood words, symbols and and concepts and I noticed that when I was doing my, it was that kind of was really eye-opening for me, right, it was really eye-opening these misunderstood concepts, and that one was really interesting, symbols too, but the misunderstood concepts, because it was. You would go in and you would find am I allowed to talk about this? I don't know what I'm supposed to say. No, no, you're fine. Am I allowed to talk about this? I don't know what I'm supposed to say. No, no, you're fine. But you go in and you find this thing that you think this is what I'm thinking about. This is how I respond to this kind of situation. When somebody does this, you're supposed to do that. Right, that's how I'm supposed to go through life.
Speaker 1:Now I'm supposed to?
Speaker 3:Yep, I'm supposed to, and this is how I go through life. And so, as you're going through your ills and as you're going through this thing, this process, you'd be like, oh no, that's not how you do, that, that's not how you run an army, that's not how you take over a planet, that's not how you do such a like, that's not how you do that. You can do it a different way and you become more aware. You become more aware of how I'm kind of running on this automatic in my life. I'm running on this thing Like this is when I feel stressed, I pick up a cigarette.
Speaker 3:When I feel stressed, I pick up a cigarette. When I feel stressed, I pick up a cigarette. And that's not necessarily what has to be done, right, you don't have to function that way. And once you start to really see what is the misunderstood somewhere along the line, it's like, oh okay, and you totally change your postulate, you totally change your way of operating about it. And so I've loved, loved, loved the process of the grays and the ales. I loved it because it really changed how I view things. Right, and what do we know when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change and it no longer has the same effect on you and you can actually be more causative as it relates to these things that's happening in our lives. You're not just the effect of it anymore.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, it's the uninspected things that manifest as mass, because there's something there that hasn't been looked at fully, so it persists, and that is mental mass. And when you start to control what it is, you get past clear and you start mocking these things up. Okay, you have to be able to spot mocking these things up. Now, to take this as a bit of a further extension, ned for OTs, which is the newer OT levels OT4 through OT7, and even back down to OT3, you do not run Dianetics and you know this from your solo course. You do not run Dianetics on a clear. Okay, now the reasons, reasons for this, we can't really go into. But once a person is clear, you don't want to do this because the rest of the ot case very well might create as a for lack of a better word stimulus, response, creation, and when I say a creation, it can be a doozy, because you're dealing with other reactive minds other than your own that are still part of your composite case. This is why we don't run Dianetics. So LRH had to get clever and figure out how to do this on OT3 in such a way that this wasn't happening for the pre-OT. And running the OT3, how do I say this running the OT3 case. So you have to be very careful of this that even though you're a pre-OT, this sort of thing can still happen, and that's how NED for OTs got developed, as it was an actual remedy, was an actual rundown to handle people who had actually gone clear, didn't know it and were still running Dianetics, and so things were being created in order to have something to run, and this is something LRH had to be handled on, and David Mayo spotted this, figured it out and got LRH through it to a point to where they said, wait a minute, this is much bigger than just a rundown and they turned it into New Area Dianetics for OTs. Interestingly enough, there's no Dianetics on New Area Dianetics for OTs at all. It's literally a misnomer and we have to approach it from a Scientology aspect in order to get around having to run incidents dynamically and it's a very, very clever thing using listing and nulling, which is the most powerful auditing process we have, and what is on the L rundowns and that's all there is to that, Because when you're doing listing and nulling, you're evaluating for the pre-clear and it's the only place and the only kind of evaluation that can ever occur in an auditing at all, and the only way that we can do that is if we know how to use a meter properly and we're looking for a blowdown of the needle and the tone arm going to the right.
Speaker 1:It stays there and you get a floating needle or you get an instant fn or a dial wide fn. Blow down that type of a thing and that says bye, george, we've found whatever the item is for that pc because of what the needle said and we'd say, okay, I'd like to indicate to you that your item is pumpkins, okay, right, a what, who or why question. And when you're doing that, when you're doing that, what you're doing is you're saying this is the item and the pre-OT or the PC says yes, that is my item, oh my God. And so what you've done is you've just, as is that particular item for that particular who, what or why question. And so now you, you get an erasure. It's just like doing a clay demo, but in concepts, okay, yeah. And the funny thing is is what can happen, and you've got to be really good with listing and knowing to know this, and I teach all my auditors this is that sometimes this can happen two or three times in tiers.
Speaker 1:You give them the item and you continue on auditing. I just got goosebumps, sorry. Give them the item and you continue on auditing. I just got goosebumps, sorry, you, you. You give them the item and then a few minutes later you're doing something else and the person says you know, that item you gave me, yeah, that that's a wrong item, okay, okay, let's go back to that. And then what they'll realize is that they had a couple layers of charge. That item cleared off the plate but yet something else bubbled up to the surface and now that's their item and a few minutes later it might come up again and it bubbled up to the surface.
Speaker 1:Because you're getting this upside-down pyramid kind of thing going, where it's just broadening and broadening and broadening to where they're as-is-ing this huge chunk of case, mental mass that they've created, and they couldn't see the trees for the forest until they got further in and it changed. And the amount of case that you can handle on the correct item, which is a symbol that the person is attributing to an aberration, can change two, three times. I've never had it happen more than three times. But that's what you're doing, is you're associating a symbol mass with something and as the person's viewpoint changes, they now see oh it was this. Oh wait, a minute. No, it's this. Oh wait, oh, it's this.
Speaker 3:I'm laughing. I'm laughing because I remember how this happens. Yeah, yeah, I remember exactly how it happens. Let me ask you a question, because now you don't have to be clear to do the L's, is that right?
Speaker 1:No, he says you can do it anywhere on the bridge, but you're going to get a lot more from the L's if you have less junk in the trunk, so to speak. So your awareness is going to be higher. You're going to look at things like we were just talking about these levels. If you did the L's early on the bridge, you might get that first layer. Okay. If you did the L's after grade four, okay.
Speaker 1:now you're down to the second layer and as far as I'm concerned, and many class 12s will tell you this the best gains for L10 and L12 come after OT3 or better, or better, because your awareness at OT3, if you look at the grade chart, in the middle there's that chart of awareness, okay, right about OT3 is where you're at source and we've mentioned this in other podcasts. If you can spot source, okay, where this is coming from, who made this? Okay, Now, that's a different question at the bottom of the bridge, who? Because you're looking at it generally, it has a completely different meaning at OT3, who made this creation? Who mocked it up?
Speaker 1:You're obviously going to get a lot more mileage, if you will, out of what it is, because you can spot the correct source. And that's the difference between doing the Ls, l11, that's fine, but you're going to get more out of it the further you are up the bridge and you can always go back and revisit it if need be. We could always go back and check your L11 and continue on, and if there's something there to run and it reads well, then obviously there's something that needs to be done. But the further along you are, the deeper it's going to go for you to get more case gain out of it basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is fantastic and I really appreciate you, art, for bringing this up as it relates to mass and masses that happen intentionally or unintentionally somewhat. See, some places where even for me in my 2d place, like you there, there is a phenomena of mocking up problems for the relationship to try to beat to prove that this relationship is viable. Have you ever seen that that before? Like where it's like, yeah, like something comes up and like, why are we, why are we arguing about this? And then at the end of it, oh, there's an old song break up to make up. That's all we do. You break up the makeup and you go through this stuff in relationships because it's like I want to prove that this relationship is supposed to be here, I want to prove that this relationship is supposed to endure and all this stuff like this. And ain't nobody got time for that?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, well, it's the same thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's the same thing. On the first dynamic, if you think about it, yeah, you've got to prove to yourself this and you've got to prove to yourself that. But the thing is, the things that you're trying to prove is your rightness, and that rightness may not be the right thing, but it's something that you're holding on, you're putting there, I am right, I am right. I am right. Well, those are service facsimiles and sometimes you may have to handle service facsimiles on the OT levels. With the OT case, it doesn't take very long to run and I'm not going to get into what it is or who it is that you're running, but sometimes you got to run that because that rightness is a mental mass that says this is this way. I'm going to prove it's this way. Therefore it is that way. How wonky is that? And it doesn't have to be that way. You're putting it there, saying there is a big, is a big, huge concrete block in the middle of the highway. I can't get around. Well, who's putting the concrete block there in the first place?
Speaker 1:right that's it, yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah. But you spit, you sputter and you say, well, I don't want to do this clay demo, this is too hard. This doesn't make any goddamn sense to me. Why do I have to do this over again for the fifth time?
Speaker 1:That's the concrete block in the middle of the road that you're unwilling to sit there and take a look at because you might have to do something differently. You might have to take responsibility for the fact that you're going to have to do more in order to do what it is that you want to do. And at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself did I do everything I could? If I didn't, there's something there that's preventing me from doing everything I could. Those are the concrete blocks in the roadway. You put that in clay, you look at it in auditing, you confront it and you look at the source of the stuff. And when you see the source of it, it just goes poof, yeah, poof. That's all that this is, and that's why auditor plus pc is greater than the pc's bank. But in arthur's case, this is a thing that he has to put in clay himself and not q a with it, and I'm not calling you out or throwing you under the bus already at all, I'm just saying it's it, we, we all have, we all have that
Speaker 1:right because I mean, let's look at it cigarettes, uh, junk food, whatever these are things that we have convinced ourselves that are havingness. Overts are havingness. What do you do when you pull a person's overts in a confessional? At the end of it you run havingness. Why? Because those overts are a mass that they've created and said look at all these pretty little marbles I have, these are my marbles.
Speaker 1:Okay, but those marbles are fucking toxic because you put them there and you use them as stable datums that are not real stable datums. They're alter is that you're using that are causing you to go left or right instead of straightforward Get rid of the marbles, confront them, view them as they are, either in clay or in session, or just sitting down and going okay, I'm going to just write this shit out. Okay, how do I do this? Short of that, that's what you need to do, and if you've got any back off on it, it's just like when you're in a solo session and you're a solo auditor to the degree that you don't want to go in session is to the degree that you have to go in session.
Speaker 3:That you need to go in session, right.
Speaker 1:That's it. Any back off at all is a non-confront.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love the way LRH uses language, and even to this degree that we're talking about here with mass, because when you really think about it, mass is the building blocks of matter, right, it's the particles, right. And so when LRH is talking about this, at first you're not really thinking about it as a thing, right? You're really thinking about it as a thing, right? You're not thinking about it as a thing, and yet I feel it. Yet it's heavy for me, yet it causes me worry and angst and anxiety and feelings and all this stuff like this. So something is there, and so the way LRH kind of packaged it to help us understand it better, that this mental mass, what it's doing in us, to us, this mental mass that's happening, that we're doing it to ourselves, actually it actually can manifest, it can become a thing, whether it be in your body, whether it be in your finances, whether it be in your body, whether it be in your finances, whether it be in your relationship, whether it be whatever, it can become a thing. And then you have, you know, all kinds of manifestations that come out of that. But I just I think it's really interesting to understand this and I think that anybody listening to this podcast, should definitely listen to it again, right, because there's a lot of data here. There was a lot of data in this podcast. You should definitely listen to it again, right, because there's a lot of data here. There was a lot of data in this podcast. You should definitely listen to it again.
Speaker 3:And you know, get started, get started clearing some of this stuff out. Get started I mean, uh, even with it, with you are and it relates to the smoking thing like, like that's right, just do, just doing this to totally as is that problem right, to totally erase that problem. How life-changing could that be right? How life-changing would it be to get rid of a problem that we ourselves mocked up for whatever reason? And now I see it, I got it and it no longer has any effect on me. This is such a really, really good way of starting our journey into this, and so, yeah, I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Now we only got a couple minutes left, but I wanna make a point, and we did another podcast on this over a year ago. When you're dealing with things like telepathy or you're dealing with you as a being okay, the only way you can be telepathic is if you've actually not convinced. Not convinced, but you know you don't need the physical universe for one goddamn thing, and the only reason you can't be telepathic and the only reason you can't feel, perceive and know is because you've dropped down into the physical universe and have to have a series of vias and have that confirmation bias. If I can't see it, I don't believe it. That's the only thing holding you back from being ot, okay, and that's that's the physical universe kicking in on you and going believe me, I am solid, I have to be validated, real, I am real, feel me I.
Speaker 1:You know, I get these people new on, new on the bridge, and they're like you know, I'm not feeling any difference and I'm like well, there's your problem right there, but you can't tell somebody that, you can't tell them that they have to learn that themselves, and that's what LRH was doing. Is it's like no, you big dummy, you big dumb, thetan, you don't have to have that viewpoint. Well, if I can't feel it, there isn't any change. Well, that's because you've got yourself convinced that you need a body to perceive everything. Okay, so pick up the cans and let's keep going.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that is really about a becoming right. It's about a becoming. I'm becoming different, I'm becoming more, I'm becoming something better. As it relates to where I was before, I'm becoming, and I don't know how I describe it now as a feeling, but in the process I wouldn't say it was a feeling, I wouldn't feeling it, I wouldn't know. I would enjoy sessions with you, jonathan, I would enjoy your sessions, but I felt like me, I felt more me.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it. You're just trying to return the person back to native state, where they're not having to go. Okay, what's the temperature outside? What's the weight of this? How much pressure am I feeling on this? Is my dick bigger? No, my dick's not bigger. The auditing must not be working.
Speaker 2:That's a hidden standard and that's the funny thing because people have a perception outside of themselves when really it's just becoming yourself which can be really foreign to people, like incredibly foreign. Yeah, yeah, let me introduce you to you. Yeah, and you can't just say okay.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to introduce you to you and the only thing I can do is that and God, we mentioned this in so many podcasts is you get the person to realize where they're viewing their pictures from. And if they're in valence, they're looking at some some pleasure moment from a distance and they're looking at it going. Wait a minute, why am I seeing this three feet in back of my head or off to the side by 20 feet? Well, that's because that's you. I'd like you to meet you right, grab. Grab the cans please.
Speaker 3:Right, this is beautiful. This is absolutely beautiful, and I said this to you before I think offline, Jonathan but it really is a loving work. It's a loving work to help a person to see themselves more clearly, help a person to really fully actualize, and yeah, it's a very, very powerful thing to do for people, and so kudos to that, kudos to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just be a being. That's all you need to do. Trust yourself, trust the process and believe us when we say, when you get there. When you get there, you will frighten yourself to the degree that you are making postulates and then they occur instantly in the physical universe. Okay, it's not about what you get, it's not about what you want, it's not about what you have, it's that you are. Everything else will follow if you become yourself and you know yourself and you trust your perceptions and don't second guess yourself. That's what this is all about. So we hope you enjoyed this podcast for Arthur. We'll see you Wednesday for another podcast Take care, namaste. And we another podcast Take care, namaste, and we love you.
Speaker 3:Bye-bye, peace, bye-bye, thank you, thank you.