Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE10EP20 - The Transition
Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Joey McElvain, a dedicated practitioner of Scientology outside the corporate Church, and Arthur Moudakis, as we share Joey's unique journey since 2017. Discover the stark contrasts between the high-pressure, costly environment of the corporate church and the supportive, cost-effective world of independent Scientology. Joey's experience highlights how following an independent path can lead to greater personal gains and fulfillment, offering insights into the challenges and rewards of this alternative approach.
We'll uncover the simplicity and clarity found in independent Scientology practices that often elude those within the church's rigid structures. Through Joey's journey, we explore the empowering principle of personal truth as highlighted by L. Ron Hubbard, and the transformative impact of straightforward guidance. Our discussion includes stories of navigating this path with help from former church members labeled as "suppressive," who offer judgment-free insights that challenge conventional teachings.
Lastly, we dive into the controversial topic of alterations in Corporate Scientology materials and their implications on the practice. Joey and I discuss the importance of accessing original publications to understand L. Ron Hubbard's intended teachings, and the potential mistrust caused by changes in texts. We also examine the difficulties faced by current practitioners dealing with altered data and the need for a return to authentic principles for effective results. Join us in this thought-provoking episode as we aim to shed light on the path of independent Scientology and its commitment to preserving its foundational teachings.
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All right, let's do it. Hi everybody and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast brought to you by the Advanced Order of the Great Plains and the College of Independent Scientologycom. This is Season 10, Episode 20. We have a special guest, joy McElvain, who is a student on Student Hat on the college, and Arthur Mudakis Quentin is getting ready to get on a plane at the airport to head back to Malaysia, so he won't be with us today. The topic of this podcast we don't have a working title yet, but having to do with being yourself and beingness and operating within the confines of the corporate church of Scientology and what that entails and how you end up an independent Scientologist. So, joey, tell us about that.
Speaker 2:First I want to say I'm grateful to you, john, and AOGPorg for what you guys are doing. It's incredible. Thank you, arthur, good to meet you, nice to meet you, yeah, man. So I'm on student hat and let me first say, when you decide to do Scientology with AOGPorg in the independent field, not only are you decide to do scientology with aogporg in the independent field, not only are you going to get the same gains or better, as you would in a church of scientology. I would say they're better, because the church of scientology as it is now is out tech. I would say that, um, you, the support you get is incredible. Um, but also the, the cost is unbelievable, like the, the, the prices for the course that you see on aogporg. If you're thinking, oh my god, don't think that, whatever you're thinking, just increase. If you're thinking, oh my God, don't think that, whatever you're thinking, just increase. If you're going to go into an actual not an actual, but a corporate church of Scientology, you're going to think three, four, five, six, seven times the cost. So, whatever you've experienced with the church of scientology, if you've had any experience at all, um, I would say that what you're going to experience at aogporg is it's going to be better beyond your wildest dreams. So that's what I'm going to start with.
Speaker 2:Thank you, um, other than that, I a little bit about me. Um, not too much detail within the context of scientology. I've been studying scientology for the past, you know, five years, something like that, a little bit longer so, since 2017, but covid kind of put a hamper on that in physical orgs. But when I did physical Scientology at an actual org in San Francisco, I got gains, you know, but I never actually got on the bridge because the prices were so unbelievable that if you're regular, if you're working a regular job like myself, I'm just a waiter. I wait tables in San Francisco. You know I make good money, but you know my living cost is high and doing services at the org which I live close to, by the way, in san francisco, they're also very high and they also pressure you very hard.
Speaker 2:Um, uh, if you're not familiar with the term reg, in scientology, a reg is short for registrar. A registrar is in charge and has a statistic and is measured by how many courses and for how much of a dollar amount they can sell a person or a preclear on. So their job is literally if you get out of a course or if you have a session and finish the course, their job is to literally get you into the success department. Have you write a success story and set and and route you to um taking another course immediately to spend money on it, and they're going to uh do their best to try to get you on the bridge, which is, you know, if you have any experience reading uh, lrh tech, you know that you need to be on the bridge. The bridge you need, you need to be on a route to um eliminating your react, your reactive mind and going beyond that um.
Speaker 2:But in a corporate church of scientology, if you just work a regular job, that's going to be very hard, extremely hard. If you just work a regular job, that's going to be very hard, extremely hard. If you're not going to take out credit, if you're not going to take out loans, the last I I haven't been involved since 2022, but the last I looked, the purification rundown and the survival rundown, which you guys will tell me is out tech. Yeah, we've mentioned it several times. You guys will tell me is out tech.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we've mentioned it several times but the, the current bridge to total freedom that you can see posted on the wall. It contains the, the life improvement courses at the bottom, and then on the right side, the auditing and the processing side. It's going to be the, it's going to be the um, it's going to be the purification rundown and then it's going to be the survival rundown and that both of those courses is it's going to be like five grand at least yeah, here in australia it's about seven, seven thousand australian jesus yeah, and that's not including um the vitamins on top, which would be almost a thousand dollars on top right.
Speaker 2:Well, I heard a podcast not too long ago that you were doing a purif yeah, I did, I did, it was super intense man, oh, it was one of the most intense things I've ever done, but it's kind of weird.
Speaker 3:Like, as intense as it is, you don't want to stop, um, because the things coming out are just so noticeable.
Speaker 1:Um, I actually want to do it again.
Speaker 3:I want to go back in for a second run. I've been a little cheeky since the purif, and so once I'm in slightly better shape. I want to do it again. Yeah, we all have our aberrations and shadows and things to work on.
Speaker 2:I'd like to have a couple of drinks, hey.
Speaker 3:I do. I'm not big on alcohol, okay, all right, yeah, but it's interesting because it's such an intense process, um, and the clarity that comes with it. It's so easy to break, though, and that's what I found since doing the purif like it's, it's easy to break that, that clarity, hey, and and I think that's why you got to just keep being on course, you know, know, you slip a little bit, like I did, and you slip Like it's really interesting, yeah. So, Wow so.
Speaker 1:Where does this lead us? Are you going to do it? I have a question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead. What have you noticed about the difference in tech since doing AOGP versus the church? What have you noticed?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, the original point of this, before we started recording, was the original LRH definition of granting beingness. Beingness is like letting a person be who they are, you know. And so with AOGP, like I'm allowed to be who I am you know, know, um, that doesn't mean you don't, um, you know. That doesn't mean I can skate by without a misunderstood word or, you know, being checked out. On course, that means you know, I just get to be who I am, you, you know. And and so with with um, the actual, with the corporate church, I had questions Like I, I wanted to ask specific things about, like what LRH was talking about in an article, and this has been like maybe five years. But I wanted to ask and go okay, like what did he mean? Or what did like, oh, and they were just like trying to clear words and I'm like no, no, I had, I had the words cleared. It's just like what does this mean to you? And some of them were like getting other staff members to like try to explain stuff to me. And um, something that was important that led me to the independent community was I talked to other people who had been involved in the independent scientology community, who left. And I was like, why did you leave? And they were like, well, because, like, here's why. And the biggest reason is because they knew or met David Miscavige. And they're like this guy's wild, he's out of he's. This isn't the tech that I knew, you know. And so there's a specific guy from Norway which Don knows. You've interviewed him. I don't know if it's not for me to say his name on the podcast. I can, but he it's not for me to say his name on the podcast, I can, but he had personal calls with me and he was somebody who went OTA in Norway and he's done the entire bridge and also left the church. And it's because he met David Miscavige and he's like, oh, okay, like all the corruption in the church is is from the top down, yeah, and so he left and so, but then they declared him a suppressive person, all these other things.
Speaker 2:And so me, before I joined a church, I was curious, but I had seen Liam Remini's documentary, I'd seen Going Clear, I had read various articles and, yes, in Scientology this is called black PR. It's negative information about Scientology, but I read it. First. However, I came in contact with people who, who got rich, who had changed their lives, who had changed their marriages, and they credited Scientology with doing these things. And so I was like, wow, okay, I saw all these negative things and so if they went through this and still were like, hey, scientology made me successful, I was willing to listen to that. And so I did that.
Speaker 2:But I still saw negative information about the church and so I listened and I talked to people who were outside of the church and this specific person I'm talking about not only did they leave the church and not only were they declared suppressive, but when they spoke to me, their first of all their trs were in. They were completely listening to me, like, completely like, how can I help you? Like john? The first time, the first call I got on with john, literally he said how can I help you? Like John, the first time, the first call I got on with John, literally he said how can I help you? And he's a busy guy, he runs an organization, he's got shit going on and he's OTA. And all the first thing he said to me was how can I help you? I'm just a guy, I'm a stranger to him, and this other person who's O8 same thing, he's like how can I help you? I was like, oh well, uh, well, I wasn't prepared. I, I want these, I want these changes in my life. And he goes, okay, good, yeah, but you're interested in scientology. I'm like, yeah, he's like, well, I'm not with the church anymore. But like, if you want to go with the church, like do this course, this course, this course, this course, this course changed my life. And so he wasn't even saying so.
Speaker 2:So I had contact with with this person who was a suppressive, and I told the church about it. I said, look, I met this guy and he was, he was an, he was an ot8 and he did all this stuff. And they were like, oh, my god, well, let us show you some data about him. And they had these, you know, pieces of paper that were like this person and like bold heading, like he and his wife, they're suppressive. And here's why. And I'm like, okay, well, this violates your own principles, whereas, like, if it's true for you, it's true, this violates your own principles. Like, I know what you're, I know what you're saying to me right now, but you also said if it's true for you, it's true.
Speaker 2:And what's true for me is this person literally said to me how can I help you? And I said I want to fix my life in these ways. And he's. And he literally said to me it doesn't matter if you go to an org or if you do it independently, who, it doesn't matter, you do these courses. And he specifically recommended the trs and objectives course, which is not in Scientology orgs anymore, it's the survival rundown. They don't want that, they want to do the SRD. So literally he was like do these courses. These unblock a lot of things for you and they'll get you a great start to doing all these things in your life. He didn't even say go up the bridge. He said do these courses. They'll unblock a lot of things for you and then after that you'll get more, and so that's. That's.
Speaker 2:That's where there was a huge disconnect for me with what Scientology was teaching, which is LRH. He said if it's true for you, it's true. And I was like, literally, I met this person who told me to do these things, and they didn't even disparage scientology. They were literally like, yeah, well, I'm not with the church anymore, but if you do these courses in the church or out of the church, it doesn't matter, you'll get these gains, I promise and I did those things and I, and, and, because I did the trs and objectives course outside of the church and then went into church. This is why they literally gave me a PTS label. So I'm not allowed. I am not allowed in a church of Scientology.
Speaker 3:That makes two of us yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, three, three.
Speaker 3:Three, three of us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But how interesting is it though.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I rambled. How interesting is it, though, meeting each other?
Speaker 3:No, that's all right? Not at all, it was good. But how interesting is it, though? Like you go through the organization and they tell you to go, like in a zigzag motion, and then you come into this organization. It's like, start here, do this, then do this. It's so direct and it's in order. It's not, do this and we'll see how you go, or put you on a course. That's such a steep gradient that you've got to do another course for that course, right, and then you're still not getting it. So then you got to do another course for that course that you just did, just so you can get to this course. And then, next thing, you know, like everything that was promised is, you know, six months ago, right In some cases maybe a year?
Speaker 2:What is here?
Speaker 3:It's like start here. Yeah, you've already done the study course, do it again. I need to know that you can do it, do this again. I need to know that you can do it, do this again. I need to know that you can do it.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean right it's such a contrast? Yes, yes, it's such a contrast, sorry, john. Well, no, no, you're fine. Um, I've got a a copy of the uh, 1970s grade chart here off to my left, which is not that different from the 1981 grade chart, and it's very simple. This is the first thing you do and you get the end phenomena of that Okay, you got that end phenomena.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I do. And then you go okay, this is your next step that you need to do, and so on and so on, and as you go up the bridge, your awareness increases, just like your. We won't use any names, your Norwegian contact told you and it's very simple, it's just nice shallow gradient one thing to the next, either in auditing or training. You can do training at the same time, you're getting auditing, but your awareness increases and you're like, yeah, I see this, I've got this, I want to continue. I like what it is that's happening to me, to my beings, and it's that simple. It's that simple. It isn't the run over here and do this and run over there and do that. Now you need to do this. And oh, you need to buy this basic books package, which is a complete arbitrary. There was never anything in Dianetics and Scientology called a basic books package, which is a complete arbitrary. There was never anything in in dianetics and scientology called the basic books package.
Speaker 3:It was yeah man, you know all about that I bought it yeah, oh, did you, yeah, I did man, and, and that came up, that's funny because all those little books, that's funny because all those little books you're doing courses anyway.
Speaker 1:That's right. You're doing actual courses.
Speaker 3:That's right and not only that, but you'll get the complete picture as opposed to a piece of it, and then, by the time, you've wasted 50 hours going through all those. You could have just done two, three courses for the same amount of time, had more data, had more wins and had more gains, and you would have just wasted your time reading all that stuff. It's insane yeah not only that.
Speaker 2:Not only that, but like literally during the student hack course no, no, not not the student hack course, the basic scientology fundamentals course, which is on aogporg for free I literally read one chapter of fundamentals of thought and I found an alteration which blew my mind and I messaged john about it. I was like what, what is this? What is this?
Speaker 1:it's just one word. So I one word, yeah one word was altered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I literally tonight. Tonight I opened the 2007 fundamentals of thought book, on page 37, it's about the eight dynamics. On the second dynamic, there's one word and I was like what the fuck is this? And he's like this is the unaltered version. And I'm like, holy shit, everything I read and and on the basics course, I've read self-analysis, I've read Dianetics Science of Survival, fundamentals of Thought and Dianetics Original Thesis, and they are. I found one alteration which made me go. I can't trust any of them. None of them. I spent like 700 bucks on all the books and it's like I have to throw them all out because one alteration made me go. This is false. I have to read the rest of the right, the original book right, what, what, what, what else?
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, and I I've said this so many times and it's an OT7, ot5 datum. It's not confidential, but he says the hardest thing to spot is a missingness. If you didn't know that it wasn't there, your comprehension and understanding of that chapter, that paragraph, that book is completely different from one word. Now imagine if it's 20 words and science of survival has been altered so much and that book is the guide to human behavior and the tone scale. You have to ask yourself, okay, what are the real reasons this stuff has been altered? And that's it's key.
Speaker 1:And you get into the basic books package and check sheet and all this stuff. It's not an LRH check sheet, lrh didn't authorize this check sheet. And all of those books and everything in the context of them are on the academy levels, are on the St Hill Special Briefing Course and you have to read these books in the context of what they were originally intended to do and you have to understand time-wise where these things go. Now, of course, the academy levels are like the greatest hits in order to get you to be able to audit the lower bridge. But you understand, okay, this is how this stuff works. But if it's altered you don't really know what you're getting. And now you're being steered in a different direction. And I gave Joey the first printing of Fundamentals of Thought. I said, okay, what you're reading. And now look at the first printing. What does it say?
Speaker 2:I mean, and it was what you're saying about those books I mean, this is just one word and the word was so controversial and carries so much political, social ramifications that I'm like this is one word. So imagine the rest of the books and and science of survival. You know, in the, I mean as of the 2007, printing is like fucking like. It's like 800 pages. It's crazy. It's a thick book. So if there are alterations in a book that has 100 pages imagine 800 pages you know what, what's altered and you know how how different and this is, and this is the point of like how how different far along the line is um, a scientologist behavior who is in a um, an ideal org or advanced org in 2025 versus when you were trained at flag john?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, they're, they're. From my standpoint, after being out 20 years, they're almost, they're, they're almost unrecognizable because you're, you've gotten things taken out of context. Uh, you're, you're forced to to read particular definitions instead of using dictionaries. They make a glossary that's sanitized for the definitions as opposed to using a real dictionary, and you're not going to know what those changes are, because this is your first time reading this material, whereas if you have the data trail, as LRH calls it, and you're looking at the original publications, they can be and most of them are significantly different, which changes the whole viewpoint on so many subjects. It's mind-boggling.
Speaker 1:So you're not getting real Scientology, you're getting somebody's sanitized, politically correct agenda of what Scientology should be 70 years later In some cases 50, depending on when the books are published and stuff like that. And the lectures the lectures have been sanitized as well. Any mention of Mary Sue Hubbard, red Sharp, all of these people that he talks about on the, the, the briefing course, lectures all of it has been edited out, all of it, right. So you're using context. You didn't know it was there artist thing to spot as a missingness.
Speaker 2:That's a big deal and that's just talking about it's just I'm sorry, give me one that's just talking about books and lectures, that's to say nothing of auditing processes and lists and questions that have been omitted. And that's to say nothing of like, when you're sitting there with an auditor who's going to, literally you guys are both going to go inside your own reactive mind or your own brain, like that's to say nothing of that. It's just a book, so what has been altered in in those processes and that's? That's a scary thought.
Speaker 3:anyway, sorry, all right, go ahead yeah, and it's interesting, like the differences in um a lot of those, the original books versus the newer ones as well.
Speaker 3:The original ones I find much easier to read and more understandable and more direct as well, whereas I found a lot of the newer material a lot more confusing and I've had the opportunity of being able to compare things I've done with AOJP versus what they're offering at the church, like even the Life's Ups and Down. Down course it's so different, like it's completely different, whereas the one that um that John got me to do at the time it was so direct and it was so easy to understand, it was so simple in nature. You couldn't mess it up. You know, it was such a simple course that even a teenager could could get through it without too many hassles. But then you look at the newer one and there's so much information omitted and then replaced with something else, and then you can even go back as far as the original TRs, because I'm on the Pro TRs course now, and then I asked John for TR0. And to me TR0 was TR0 beb there, which is what it was in the church.
Speaker 3:When I did it in the church and he's like no, yeah, ot tr0. And I'm like, no, it's tr0b there.
Speaker 2:And then I actually have. I actually have the modern.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have the modern um uh, scientology handbook, um that I bought through the church and john's like no, it's ottr, zero. And I'm like oh, it's tr0b there, I swear. So I went and had a look at the modern, at the modern version. It's tr0b there, um, and then in the original tech it's ottr zero, that's it, and I think they've changed it again. From what I understand, where it's um, tr0, sit comfortably or something like that.
Speaker 1:They've changed it again you know, I just, I just just look at it and just go why? Why do you need to change this? But the but the thing is is what LRH says is don't change it. Technical degrades, keeping Scientology working. Do what it is that needs to be done this way, don't change it.
Speaker 1:But the thing is is when the cat's away, the mice have played, and so it's like that rumor line where you tell one person and they tell another and they tell another, and by the game of telephone at the other end it's completely misduplicated. That's what's happened over time because of this regime that is running this organization and people don't know what used to be there. I mean, the wins that you can get from an original communications course are nothing short of incredible for people, and it's a hell of a lot of fun to apply this data. So it's something that if you don't know, you're not going to know and you're never going to be aware of it, and that's why it's important to make people aware through this podcast that the gains that they got were diluted if they were in the church, and they can get much bigger gains doing the original material and foster john john.
Speaker 2:are there specific things where you constantly find yourself with people who have been in the corporate church? Are there specific things that you have to correct them on or unlearn? What are they and what are the most important things?
Speaker 1:I spend most of my time handling false, altered data with people because they're like no, it's, it's this. And I say, okay, so where did that information come from? We've talked about this. You know handling false data. I think I did it with Artie. Even we had to handle false data and so you're having to try and handle this false data to get them through what it is, because it's standing in the way of what they know.
Speaker 1:One of the one of the things is how people do clay demos. I mean that's that's one of the the the most stark examples of of changes, or where you get your definitions, or what the definitions of things are. They've been changed, simple definitions. I've already seen that. He and I. He was like no, wait, it's like. You said, yeah, wait, it's this. And I'm going no, it's this. He's like what do you mean? That doesn't exist. Yeah, it does. Let me show you.
Speaker 1:So it's that you don't know what you don't know, and so it's that you don't. You don't know what you don't know, and it's it's hard to spot because you didn't know it existed in the first place, and that's that's how the narrative of Dianetics and Scientology technology has changed is the slow degradation over time and it's become something else and something else and something else. And they're not. They used to put on bulletins. These are the changes to the bulletins and this is why, per what LRH says, boom. Now they don't even put on the technical bulletins that there was a change. So now you don't have any data trail to fall back on and say, oh okay, it's just. This is the gospel and according to Dave, and this is how we operate and you, you're not getting the same thing. You're getting a dilution. Now the thing is is, even with diluted tech, you're still getting some gains. That's how good it works, but it isn't what you should be getting.
Speaker 2:Right, wow, good, it works, but it isn't what you should be getting, right, wow. And that that was the point of like when this person was saying hey look, I got gains, you'll get gains. You can do this course outside of the church or inside the church, it doesn't matter, I mean, but it does, it seems like it does matter, you know yeah, it does, because I think it does.
Speaker 1:You're, you're, you're dealing with, you're dealing with two different subjects all together and eventually it's going to trip you up and you're going to go wait. What did you just say? Like, arthur, did you know with, with something as basic as as the training regimens, you know, for the communications course? It's, it's, it's a skipped gradient to not do ottr zero and then do TR zero? Or you know the way that they changed the end phenomena of the drill and all of this stuff and of anything LRH would have said don't you change a goddamn thing. This is how it's done. It isn't done in any other way. But the thing is is you get people that are like, wow, you know that's really hard for people to do and we don't want to blow them out of the water, so we're gonna. We're gonna make it easier for them and that's the last thing you want to do. It's a complete disservice and it's fraud. It's fraud. That's not scientology, that's not dianetics, it's not done that way.
Speaker 3:So and it's interesting because I was actually thinking that maybe, um, that was changed because they weren't getting n phenomena, so something, something's happened along the way and everybody's just, I don't know, maybe misunderstood the n phenomena and so therefore they changed it because it was too hard or you, it wasn't being applied correctly.
Speaker 1:Well, like he says, if you can't get the results, you're not doing it right. And that's what's happened to the church is they can no longer get the results because they don't know how to train people and they're not training people, they're training them differently, so they can't get the results that LRH got. Nothing's changed in this society. People aren't well it's a funny sentence. People aren't more stupid or more dumb, it's just the fact that they don't have the right ability because they're not trained correctly. There's been an alteration along that line that you can't get the results. Well, if you can't get the results, well, we're going to have to change it. And so this is where the church is at, because they've gotten, like LRH says, they've gotten reasonable and they want to make it easier. But the thing is is, if you don't get the results, less people come in, and then you get these ideal orgs where there's nobody in the course room because they're not getting real Scientology anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:So Crazy. Yeah, it's quite bizarre, it is crazy, but yeah, so was there anything else you wanted to cover, joey um, on your journey my journey, man.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll just. I'll just use where I'm at like, like the person who was in the church, who wanted to go up the bridge and who has felt invalidated by the church. What do we do now? Where do we start and how do we go up the bridge?
Speaker 1:Well, nine times out of 10, unless they got out really early, the person needs some cleanup, and nine times out of 10, again, it has to do with the wrong indications in ethics as far as something that the person went through and they were told do you have to do this this way and you're a this and you're a that. So you start to get wrong indications and this builds up charge with the person and ethics is a personal thing and so eventually they go. I just can't stand this anymore. I'm getting out of here.
Speaker 1:So the first thing is to get that cleaned up and show the person the real data, Handle that false data after you get the wrong indications cleaned up and you give them the correct indications that what you're doing and what you experienced were something other than LRH intended for you to experience, and there are.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've got stories where there were dozens and dozens of hours that had to be done to get somebody cleaned up on something because they'd been led down a path that wasn't what LRH intended. Once you get that straightened up now you've got the person to a point to where they can return back to the regular LRH bridge with the original information and they're like, wow, this is completely different than what I understood, but I didn't know this existed. And there you go. That's how we do it, because most of the people that come to us I'd say 90% of the people that come to us come from the church and have been maligned in some way to where they know the tech works, but they just don't feel like being beat up anymore by the organization. Your situation is completely the same. It's exactly that. Yeah, so it's very much a case of do as we say, don't do as we do, which is a fundamental ARC break with almost every person that we meet.
Speaker 2:Rules for thee and not for me.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I've said this in other podcasts when's the last time you ever saw the church do a lower condition with a public? It's never happened, never happened, right, and that's that's. That's the problem, and and I'm not blaming lrh for that. But, um, I have another. Have another person that's coming out of the church and he was dealing with a certain situation with them in the services that he received and he didn't like the services and I said, oh so you're in a condition of doubt, and he didn't know anything about the conditions and I gave him the condition and I said this is what you need to do, this is what you need to say. And he went into the org and said here's the deal, this is my viewpoint.
Speaker 1:I've done a doubt condition and told Sea Org members that and they were like well, we can't argue with that, because his viewpoint was this is my viewpoint on this and that's where I'm at. I've compared this side to that side and this is the direction that I'm heading in. I want my money back. So you know, that's what you have to do with somebody, but they don't make people aware of this, because if they make people aware of it, what they going to say they can't argue. I mean, that's always the thing somebody says well, I got a problem with this. Let's say, okay, this is what lrh says, says about this, take it up with him and if they understand the words, okay, they can't argue with it. Even even people in the c org they see that and they go well, that's your viewpoint, that's we can't argue with that.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't mean that he's going to get his money back. That's that's. That's another thing. That's a whole other ball of wax, but it is. It's an issue of if you, if you look at what he says and I'm not saying you have to agree with what he says pretty much everything I agree with L. He says pretty much everything I agree with LRH on. There isn't much that I don't agree with him on and it's so incredibly minor it's not even worth mentioning because the bulk of it everything does. Well, everything does what he says it does. If you do what he says to do, period. So that's the thing is you gotta keep your own counsel. It's a code of honor thing and if it's not true for you, it's not true for you. And that's why people leave the church, is they see?
Speaker 1:one thing in what LRH says and they see what the organization is doing and they're like these two aren't the same and that causes cognitive dissonance's. That's all it is.
Speaker 2:It's cognitive dissonance yeah, you take a introductory course which is called personal values and integrity and you read whatever's true for you is true, and then, when you apply it, someone takes you aside and says what didn't you understand? And you're like no, I understood everything. It's just now. I just don't agree now with what you're saying. It's like okay, well, you know you're the problem aside with the court supervisor. Yeah, right, right, exactly, it's okay exactly, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's okay, joey, for five thousand dollars we can clear that up for you, man right that you need a life repair, it's yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, right now yeah, yeah and I think, they told you what ten thousand dollars they told you ten thousand dollars is what you needed in order, in order to get get your your viewpoint back in line with their viewpoint yeah, it was like seven to ten k yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right did did the church you were going to offer that service, or did you have to go to a different church to get that service?
Speaker 2:no for them. Yeah, for down the street, literally, like I can walk for a minute and a half and go to the org and it's uh, like seven to ten grand for a sec check, okay, last question, before I go to bed, it's it's almost 2 am in the usa, um, so the reason I got into scientology is because, like, I heard about it from a rich guy and so, john, you're ot, you've done the bridge, you've had, you know, countless hours of training and processing and all I'm trying to do as a pre-clear, as a little guy, is try to discipline myself, figure out how to give myself a command and follow it in my daily life, and do that over a long period of time where I can be successful in my personal fitness finances. You know my birth dynamic, second dynamic, third, fourth, the rest of my life. So that's so. That's the whole reason I'm here.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be talking to you guys. I wouldn't talk to anybody in Scientology. I would never do Scientology. I grew up Christian and that didn't handle the stuff that I wanted to handle. How do I do that?
Speaker 1:You do one course, take that data data and apply it to the next course. Take that data and apply it to the next course and it's a nice gradual gradient. And what you're doing right now is you're learning how to study anything, not just Scientology. You're learning how to study anything and that is probably. And you're getting student hat and pro TRs and you can take this data and then you'll understand.
Speaker 1:Pro TRs is one of, if not the outside of, the data evaluators course, one of the two most valuable courses. When I did the bridge, pro TRs was before student hat and that was a real Hail Mary play, but I got through it and because I didn't have student hat, I just had the basic study manual, but I at least knew the basics on how to study. But the thing is is if you've got something that allows you to understand, as long as the data that you're trying to read is usable to study a subject, you can get through that and you can apply it in life to anything you get. On ProTRs, okay, now you're looking at the end phenomena of ProTRs is to be able to handle any social situation, no matter how rough, with communication alone. That is the verbatim end phenomena of ProTRs and if you can do that, it will save your life. It saved mine three times, literally and that gives you the tools to communicate with other people and for people to take you seriously and for you to be able to confront situations and go.
Speaker 1:This is not something I want a part of. This is something I want a part of. And then you go from there and then you can get trained as an auditor or you can get auditing book one, or you can get metered auditing and go up the bridge and your awareness increases and you find that your dynamics align and you're able to do things you weren't able to do before. Stops go out of the way and now you can survive to the degree that you want to survive. If you have the wait for it, self-discipline, slash, confront to do so. It's that simple. Yeah, because confront is everything. Yeah, confront is everything, yeah.
Speaker 1:So Thank you, man, thanks for being here, joey Artie, we'll do another podcast on Wednesday.
Speaker 1:I hope this was illuminating for people to get a fresh pair of eyes on things and what's going on in 2025 in comparison to the independent field and the corporation of the Church of Scientology International. And if you have any questions, feel free to leave a comment on YouTube or come to the collegeofindependentscientologycom and get on a free course, get a free auditing session and make your way up the bridge, or get cleaned up If you've been in the corporate church or you're just starting new. Either way, we're here for you, namaste, and we love you. Bye-bye.
Speaker 3:Bye-bye, bye-bye, thank you, thank you. Thanks for watching.