Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE10EP33 - Independent Scientology and The Choice
Freedom of choice lies at the heart of spiritual growth, yet many seekers find themselves trapped in systems that quietly erode this fundamental right. This eye-opening conversation with Quenton explores how organizational structures—particularly religious ones—can systematically replace self-determinism with other-determinism through subtle and not-so-subtle control mechanisms.
The discussion delves into specific technical alterations that have occurred within Scientology since L. Ron Hubbard's passing in 1986, including the controversial redefinition of the "floating needle" and introduction of the Survival Rundown. These changes have resulted in practitioners being subjected to unnecessary overruns, required to repeatedly redo completed steps, and charged extensively for repairs to problems created by altered technology. Most critically, followers often remain unaware these alterations exist, believing they're receiving standard practices when they're not.
What emerges is a powerful contrast between controlled environments where questioning is punished and truly independent spiritual paths where self-determinism flourishes. When practitioners regain their power of choice—to look where they want, ask what they want, and progress at their own pace—spiritual advancement accelerates dramatically. As Quentin powerfully states, "When you make a decision to go up the bridge, the time thing kind of clears up. Clean, clear decision gives you clean, clear time."
Whether you're currently involved with Scientology, another spiritual practice, or simply interested in the dynamics of choice and freedom, this conversation offers valuable insights into recognizing when your power of choice is being compromised and how to reclaim it. Discover why knowing you have options is often the first crucial step toward genuine spiritual liberation.
Ready to explore a path with true freedom of choice? Call 816-355-4606 or visit ao-gp.org to learn about our half-price bridge package that makes authentic spiritual advancement accessible without the endless expense.
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Hi everybody and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast brought to you by the Advanced Org of the Great Plains, ao-gporg and collegeofindependentscientologycom. That's our social media platform, Having a lot of people sign up this last week, last two weeks, with our online course room on there as well. Again, that's collegeofindependentscientologycom. We've also got our half price bridge package going on. You can get in touch with me about that. 355-4606. That's 1-816-355-4606. And it's a heck of a deal and I can fill you in on it. Get you up the bridge and get you to OT this year. We can knock it out. So give me a call, give the org a call. We've got people down here at our retreat right now. Let's get going. Retreat right now, let's get going. So this one is going to be season 10, episode 33. And this is about the choice Quentin had. This and this is going to be all over the place and it's going to be a eye opener. So, Quentin, where do you want to start? Arthur's here, too.
Speaker 2:Yes, hey, art. Yes, I think that, starting with just understanding that we have the power of choice right, and I think that what's really interesting is that whenever we get involved in organizations or even jobs, even sometimes marriages, sometimes life, you know whatever it's like. Sometimes you feel like, on whatever level, your power of choice diminishes, right. And it's like now that I'm at this job and they say I have to be there at nine o'clock on the dot or you get a demerit or written up or whatever people do nowadays, like that kind of makes you feel like you don't have the power of choice, right. And so, as I was looking into this, I was like there has to be a way for us to really open up that awareness more. Right, open up that awareness more. I think that even shows up on the awareness characteristics, like it opens it up for you to like realize that wait, I can choose, and what that really means for your life. So I think that's where we should open it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, the power of choice is you don't have to be stuck in this. You know, be in the church and stuck in this viewpoint of you know I could never do anything else. You know, get in trouble and all that it's. Why would you want to be in an environment where you're under suppression of crush-redging, heavy ethics handlings, wrong indications on ethics? It's always your fault and you have to kowtow to a corrupt organization that's controlled by well, basically by the shadow government. That's controlled by well, basically by the shadow government. You know, and that gets into, you know, the three swing FN floating needle is a big issue as well, where they're overrunning you on things, which is a violation of the original definition of a floating needle, and so you're going past a floating needle and then you start to feel not right because you were done and they didn't feel that you were done. So you get overrun and that's, you know, most of our people that come from well, most of the people that come to us come from the church.
Speaker 1:We talked about freedom from and freedom to. You have a choice. It is your choice. You have a choice to get real Scientology, and 95% of the people that contact us were in the church and didn't like what they were experiencing. They love the subject, but they don't like the organization that is pushing things down their throat, making them do things they don't need to do, forcing them to do objectives twice, forcing them to do objectives for hundreds of hours on the survival rundown, which is a non-LRH rundown, you know I mean. It just goes on and on and on. You do have a choice you can leave so what happens?
Speaker 3:so what happens when um somebody decides to come to, say, an independent organization, right um, and they come to aogp, how do you, how do you work out, um where they're at on the bridge, like, let's say, they're so far up the bridge and so they've done a lot of study, they may have done some auditing, that kind of thing? Like what do you do to sort of help them through that process?
Speaker 1:Well, typically, the first thing that needs to be handled is most people have been mishandled with ethics. Like you know, they have to take an over-the-counter medication. I've actually had people tell me that they made them leave flag and they couldn't do services at flag for the time being or in perpetuity because they took tylenol something as simple as Tylenol. And what's happening there is you're getting wrong indications, you're getting out lists, you're being told this item is you're an out ethics cat, when you're not an out ethics cat, but it's a. It's a way to get people to propitiate and get them to to spend more money in order to make up the damages for something that wasn't a damage in the first place. It's gotten that far out of hand. So what we do is we generally clean them up on any wrong indications. You can do an ethics repair list where we can get them cleaned up on how the church well, for lack of a better word made them wrong and made them have outlists. And, like LRH says, there's no more concentrated hell than an outlist with a PC. And those things have to be handled. So when somebody says you're in a lower condition, okay, that can be an outlist. If they aren't in that condition. They're being told that they're an enemy or in confusion or liability to an organization that's never, ever done conditions towards their public. They're never wrong, they never make up the damages and that is the first thing that we do is we handle the ethics issues that they have any wrong indications, which are outlists, then we find out where they were at and we check those those areas to make sure that it's cleaned up.
Speaker 1:A lot of people have done the survival rundown, like I mentioned earlier, and they're so grossly overrun on things on things you know. It's like Scott Gordon was saying the other day they're so grossly overrun on things you're told to do objectives twice and overruns. I know five people, by one degree of separation, who died on the survival rundown because they were so overrun. So the first thing we do is we check to see that they're not way beyond something that they said they didn't get, which is really uncomfortable for a being really uncomfortable. So we clean that up, get them feeling free, get them acknowledged on what it is that they've achieved, what they've gotten or what they haven't, and was delivered incorrectly, which happens a lot too and we get that straightened out in a repair program and then we get them back on the grade chart and get them moving through the grades, or if, if they're already clear, we rehab their state of clear when they went clear time, date, location, all of that and make sure that they just feel really good about what they've gotten.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, no, that's right, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So and I guess my question is is that at what point? So all of these things can happen right, and all of these things have happened to people and that's totally a real experience. I guess my question is that does a being know when they've been mishandled, right? So if somebody incorrectly indicates something or outlists you or whatever, like don't you know? Like wait, no, that's not my problem, that's not what I'm going through.
Speaker 1:That's a good question, not really.
Speaker 2:At what point does your own awareness kind of kick in and be like no, that's incorrect and let me give you the correct viewpoint on that.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, if they've been able to not commit any overts against the organization because you can't go PTS if you haven't committed an overt against your suppressor you know there are those people who are in really good position, but you know the church is chewing people up and spitting them out. You know, arthur knows a few people that have been there where they're dividing people up in their relationships and in individuating them and all that stuff. And you know, if you and you still believe that what they're saying is right, you know, you, you you feel like you don't have any choice because you didn't know that we exist. When people find out that, when people find out that we exist, they're like oh my God, I didn't even know there was an option, that's, they didn't know they had a choice, they didn't know they had that's they didn't know they had a choice.
Speaker 3:They didn't know they had. I think, um, the biggest thing, like if, if you're in in that situation and you're not sure like your body will let you know, like if it doesn't feel right and it feels uncomfortable, it's more than likely not um, and that's that's how I sort of stepped out as well, because I'd go in and the tech is great, but something just didn't feel right, like it just didn't feel right in my being. You know what I mean. And um, and if something's being overrun, you'll feel it like it's a, it's a physical phenomena. Yeah, you'll feel it doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel correct, it doesn't feel finished, it doesn't feel complete, like all those things will, will occur because once you've, once you've hit an end phenomena or um, you know it yeah, well, you know it, you know it look, scientology, the whole, the whole idea behind scientology is to return self-determinism to the being.
Speaker 1:If you're being told don't look, don't look, don't get internet, don't, don't do anything other than what we tell you, you're, you're not self-determined, you're other determined, and so you're, you're, you're, you're basically in Stockholm syndrome.
Speaker 2:Right, so so so that, well, you just mentioned Stockholm syndrome. That kind of cleared it up. But that was my question, because I was told the same thing but I never paid attention to that. It was just not even a. It was not even a consideration. Like you can't, you're not going to tell me what I can't type on my search field, you got to go like like it's just not even a, like I don't even understand how, how, one where? Where is one on the tone scale, maybe? Where is one on the tone scale, maybe? Where is one on the characteristics of awareness? Where is one that they can be told not to do something by somebody? And I'm a grown person and they obey that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think you're the answer to that question. You're clear. You were clear before you ever contacted us. You just didn't have that acknowledgement, acknowledgement and they didn't catch it. I mean, they do a whole thing, even if you have gone clear or you're a past life clear for example, like I was, from 1956, they said well, you know, you've got to do all of your grades and you've got to do all of this stuff and it's going to be tens and tens of thousands of dollars and then we'll look into it. That was in 2003. Wow, things have changed a lot since then. So, in other words, you, you have to throw this incredible amount of money at them for them to just validate something that you already are. That's pretty fucked up, you know that's how does someone choose well, that's, that's exactly.
Speaker 1:The point is, and that's the point of this podcast is you're dealing with an organization that is trying to scuttle, trying to scuttle.
Speaker 1:You know what scuttle means when they, when they, they, they scuttle, trying to scuttle. You know what scuttle means? When they scuttle a ship, they blow it up so that it sinks to the bottom of the ocean. They're scuttling it. So they're scuttling beings wholesale, wholesale. When they started this whole thing with the survival rundown, they told everybody hey OT-8s you're not OT. Hey, clears you're not not clear. You need to start at the bottom of the bridge and you need to do hundreds of hours of objectives processing that can literally put you in the ground, dead, dead. This is what we're dealing with here. Is, is, is the, the corporate church of scientology, is flypaper. They're trying to catch any and all beings that they possibly can, extract as much money and as much emotion and effort and attention out of them to get them to not look anywhere else. And getting them to not look anywhere else, they have control of them once they get their grip on them and get them to believe that there is no other answer and they only have the answers. And that's not the case and where you start to realize this is when you start feeling overrun on things or being given wrong indications that you're this or you're that. Because it's so dogmatic now that if you don't think the way they want you to think, that, if you don't think the way they want you to think, you're not part of the group anymore for long. And how can you restore somebody's self-determinism to them through auditing while still having them be other, determined by their narrative of what's going on right now on this planet and what their purpose is? There to be for them, for the corporate church of Scientology? Right, that's that's. You can't, the two can't reside. They're, they're mutually exclusive. You know you're either self-determined or you're not. So that's something where you have to have the ability to choose, and that's what this podcast is about, and I want people to hear this and understand they have a choice.
Speaker 1:There you go, and that's that's what it's about is because if you don't think you've gotten the gains you should have gotten, that's probably because you're overrun. You thought you had them, it keyed out, it keyed back in and they said Dell, there's more to do, and you're paying to be overrun. Overrun, just based off of the floating needle definition, let alone all the other arbitrary things that they have you do. You're just caught up in it. You can't get out of that vicious cycle where you can come to AOGP and you can get your entire bridge for a mere fraction, fraction of what they're charging you, and you can get it at your own pace, on your own terms, and we will give you the information as to what's happened in the church to where you realize I'm dealing with a criminal organization.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm not saying that the people in the church are bad. There are a lot of nice people that are in the church and their hearts are in the right places, but they're being told the narrative that is just an outright, blatant lie, because they didn't get in until after things had changed so much. They didn't see the church in the 70s, they didn't see the church in the 70s, they didn't see the church in the 60s and everything like that. They just think, well, this is how this is. So they don't know that they have a choice and that Scientology is fun and it should make you feel free and like creating and living your life instead of oh, I got to watch what I do because if I take some Tylenol. Oh, I'm going to get kicked out and I have to go somewhere else and then I have to reapply in order to get my OT levels at flag.
Speaker 1:I mean this is literally what's happening. I mean it's crazy. There's no reference that says that. I mean, you know, the rule is, you know you have to wait so many days if you've taken an over-the-counter medication before you can go back in session. But the thing is it's a punitive situation. There's always this punishment. How is that a power of choice? You know, ethics is a personal thing. You get to decide.
Speaker 2:Right, and that rings true across the board. Like in any aspect of our lives, when you feel like you're under duress I mean, even in the legal field, you cannot sign a contract under duress. And so if you feel like you're under duress, like it null and void, is the contract right. And so this goes for every aspect of life. This goes for your job, ok. This goes for any spiritual organization or any organizations you're a part of. This goes for your relationship, this goes for your life. You cannot be at free choice and under duress at the same time. Right. And so if you feel like there's this punitive aspect to if I come in late or if I do such and such, if you feel there's this punitive aspect in it, you have to realize that there's no choice here and your choices are being taken away. And by understanding that, coming to that awareness whenever you do come to that awareness, you then go and seek to rehabilitate your power of choice. I need to know what I can do for me and that was always my viewpoint Like, this is what I'm doing for me.
Speaker 2:There was many times, even in my experiences with the church 20, some odd years and they had been asking me why don't you come on staff? And my answer to them was y'all can't afford me. Like that was my answer to every one of them Y'all can't afford me. And it was not even a thought of. Maybe I should give myself, you know, the gung-ho try and make sure that I'm. You know, listen, you can't afford me, it's okay, and it's okay that you can't. But I was very you can't afford me, it's okay, and it's okay that you care. But I was very, very clear with them and they would laugh and they were like oh, you're serious, yeah, I'm serious about it. I was very clear. They wanted to pull me up to Harlem and open up the Harlem org. They wanted me to go to Oakland and open up an org in San Francisco, oakland area. They wanted me to do all this stuff. And I'm like listen, it's just, it's not going to work, sweetie, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Right, well, you know. The other thing is is that I wanted to mention is is that you know, we, you know there's been some talk about how do I want to put it that you know people, people that are in the church, are damaged and that they shouldn't be helped, and that isn't the case. That isn't the case at all. I mean, it's just a situation of these people are reaching any auditing is better than no auditing per L or H and they don't know, they don't have any idea about what's going on. I didn't have any idea about what was going on. I mean, you know, I saw things as far back as geez mid-80s and then, once I started getting training and everything, I saw that, well, people are being used to audit other people for free.
Speaker 1:I may have mentioned this in an earlier podcast. I was getting ready to go on my internship and the check sheet says three weeks and it was three years that it was taking class fours to get through the class four internship because they were being used in the HTC, where auditing occurs. They were auditing public for Flag for free, and Flag was making all of the money and instead of going back to their orgs, they were working for free for another organization and still having to pay that organization in order to have room and board and all that stuff. So I mean, people don't know what they don't know because they aren't privy to this. Like I said before in a few other podcasts, they've even taken the technical volumes out of the course rooms. You can't even refer to these things.
Speaker 1:So that's a hidden data line and that's the whole thing is that there's huge amounts of hidden data that are going on as to what's really happening and what it was. So these people are, they're being used, abused and misguided and lied to, and they don't even know it. That's, and the definition of Scientology is knowing how to know, and so you have to have the you know. You either say, okay, I've had enough. Like LRH says in the blow-offs HCOB, there's only two reasons people leave. One is they have overridden withholds, and then I may have had the order backwards, but the situation is so bad they can no longer take it, and so one of those two things happens.
Speaker 2:So if LRH passed away in, was it 86? 86, january of 86. So LRH passed away in 86. So am I hearing you say that after a certain point and we can pinpoint the date, or whatever, but after a certain point the auditing and the training done through the church started changing and it has been altered and changed. So if a person say is class 5 or class 6 or whatever, I don't know what class, yeah, if a person is class 5 auditor but they started getting auditing after 86, would they be considered class 8 or class 5?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they would still be. You know, your certificates are provisional if you don't do an internship, and that's for a year. If you do an internship, they're permanent and you can't take their certificates away. But that's what they did with the golden age of tech. They said, okay, whatever, which violates LRH policy. They said, okay, you're no longer a class six or a class five, now you have to do all your training over again. And this is a pattern with them, is they force you to redo things you've already done. They've done that two or three times now, where anything that you've done well, we've changed it got to do it again, and that's a violation of technical degrades.
Speaker 2:So totally makes sense. Because if I did the training, I did the training. If I got through it, I got through it. If I passed, I passed. If I graduated, I graduated. Whatever the case may be right, so that makes sense. So if a person comes out of the church they came in after 86, they come out of the church. So, for example, I found Scientology in 2002, right, did my Dianetics, did my auditing, did my bridge progress, all that stuff, or whatever. But if it was improperly delivered, or if it was altered, or if it was something else, when I come out of it and go into the independent field, how is that still relevant? How does that still work?
Speaker 1:Well, there's been discussions and I mean, you even see it, in the independent field, where we'll have high-class auditors that are like well, you didn't do your training in the church, how's that? Right, I never understood that. How is that? How can you say, well, you didn't do your training in the church, but you're out of the church yourself? How?
Speaker 2:is that You're also out of the church yourself, but you've also pinpointed times where the church got tech wrong and did it differently or whatever. So that should be a criteria, in my opinion, opinion to be an effective independent auditor.
Speaker 1:Right Because you didn't know or don't know what was right, that you got from them, as opposed to somebody who's been out in the field from the late 70s and knows how it was, because the tech has been slowly changed and it's been slowly changed and slowly changed and then you know I mean even on the technical bulletins and stuff like that, they've stopped putting on the revisions. So you have some sort of data trail as to what was changed and what you have in front of you is completely changed. Like I said, with the FN definition, you wouldn't know any different because you didn't know what it was to begin with and you think that this is the real deal. And that's why we put the technical volumes out there for everybody to see, and colorize them and OCR them so they're searchable. Artie.
Speaker 3:So let's talk about this tech business, because this seems to be the biggest difference between Indy and the church and this seems to be like the biggest argument around it all. So just because the text changed doesn't mean it's bad. Right, like is is the new tech bad tech? Like, let's say, someone's still in the church? Um, is it bad tech just because it's been altered? And just because it's different? Like, does it mean that somebody who gets trained as an auditor through the church which from what I understand is pretty rare but versus, say, an independent that learns how to become an auditor? Like, is there actually a difference? Because the tech's still somewhat the same, minus some changes. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But see, the thing is like I said, with the floating needle and the objectives, those are huge. I mean, they're the linchpin in things. Okay, if you don't know this, I mean let me give you an example. Anybody who's a pre-clear it's, and it's almost. I don't think it's ever happened that I've had. I take that back. There's one person I've had, one person who was already trained as an auditor, as a grad five auditor, which is a near aerodynamics and near aerodynamics repairs. I've only had one auditor that I've ever had that I got him up the bridge and he's all the way through new OT7 and on Excalibur.
Speaker 1:Everybody else, whatever it is that they get through the church. They have no idea and this is so important they have no idea that what they're getting has been changed because they're not trained and they weren't trained in a time before those changes took place. You know it's sort of like you know the a tree falling in in the in the forest. If you're, if you're not there to hear it, do you actually? Does it actually make a sound? And you know that'd be a whole other podcast that we could get into about, about that. But you know the but the thing is is they're in a paradigm, unaware of changes, where their needle floated and they feel good, but when they say, well, the needle needs to swing three times before it's an FN. Lrh never said that and the auditor that's delivering this auditing is unaware of that and they just think that that's delivering this auditing is unaware of that and they just think that that's how it is. You're literally altering the reality of scientology. You're saying that a person needs to do 100 hours of book and bottle.
Speaker 3:You know sophc so, even though, so, even though the tech's changed, it hasn't changed in a positive way.
Speaker 1:No, because the thing is is the tech has been changed to benefit the organization.
Speaker 2:To keep people coming back to fix, fix fix fix, fix fix, fix fix.
Speaker 1:Right. And here's the thing, Like with our bridge package, okay, if something needs to be repaired, let's say your interiorization, exteriorization goes out, which normally happens at the lower end of the bridge, the person goes exterior and they need to get that handled because no auditing can occur if interiorization, exteriorization, has been restimulated, which has to do with going exterior in session and restimulating past going ins and coming outs of earlier lifetimes in bodies, because the TA goes way up and you have to handle that. With the church they say, hey, guess what? You need three intensives. That's going to be $12,000, $13,000, $14,000. You need to do this repair. We don't do that with our bridge package. We don't do that. Okay, we're going to have to switch over to a repair program and we're going to have to handle your int. Or if the auditor screwed up, they make you pay more money to get fixed by the auditor that they gave you. That screwed you up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's the logic in?
Speaker 1:that. How is that a power of choice? You're broken, we need to fix you. But you need to give us more money. We don't do that. It's all part of this package. You know it's like a sandals resort. You know Everything's included. You know you get to go out on the Sea-Doo, you get free drinks, you know all that stuff. You get to go out on trips and it's all included. Church doesn't do that.
Speaker 1:And then, if anything happens in your life, they say, well, you're going to need to go to ethics and you're going to have to pay for that in your life. They say, well, you're going to need to go to ethics and you're going to have to pay for that. You're going to have to pay to see the ethics officer. And then you say, well, I think I'm in this condition, they're going to go. Well, that's all good and fine, but we think you're in this condition.
Speaker 1:And then, all of a sudden, you're taken off of auditing lines. How many times has that happened to our listeners? Almost every time lately, because they've gone so far out into left field with ethics, to where their viewpoint is is no longer ethics is a personal thing. They say that, but when it comes down to it it's. It's either you, you do what we tell you, or else, and then you're denied your spiritual salvation because they dangle that carrot over your head. So how do you have any power of choice? You don't. So how? How are't so? How are you getting any gains in auditing? Because now you're a potential trouble source without outlists on these items? That then has to be handled, because you can't get auditing without lists. So think about that. You've been given wrong indications outside a session by the ethics officer or by some reg or whatever, and then now you're going in session and you've got outlists that haven't been handled.
Speaker 3:It's almost like there's a third bridge that isn't on paper. It's like a whole third bridge that everybody knows but it's just not on paper, like it's the oddest thing and like that bridge is more around the staff bridge, because the staffing side of it is where a lot of those things occur, not if you follow the bridge.
Speaker 1:Yeah side of it is where a lot of those things occur. Um, not if you follow the bridge. Yeah, well, it's, it's, and you know there's three sides to every story. You know there's yours and the tech, because you don't know, because of their story. So you're, you're taken off, you know off into this, uh, other path that you, you have no idea that you're on, but they're being, they're telling you this is the correct path, but you know you can't.
Speaker 1:You can't do that and get gains, because if you're, you're being delivered, auditing or you're being taught on courses where you know they tell you, you know, need to look up the definitions in a dictionary. We've got everything in a glossary. What is I mean? You know that's. That is a prison, a mental prison, because you're not getting all of the information and they're saying, well, this is how we do it, but you don't know that that this is how we do it now, as opposed to, this is how it's supposed to be done. Is you LRH says? You know, look, you've got these dictionaries, some some are better, some are worse on student hat. These are the ones I recommend. Instead, they're giving you their definitions of existence and telling you eat this. There's no power of choice there. You can't even go and look at the tech and the tech volumes now, because they have everything so sanitized that they're slowly pointing and diverting you into this understanding, looking up words and everything, to where you're believing what it is that they tell you to believe, which is really insidious.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting you mentioned this right, because now that you bring it up and the way you just floated out it reminded me of something that happened to me when I was in DC and I was at the founding church and I was on course and I came across a reference. I can't remember what it was at the time, but I came across this reference and I was like, help me understand what this is. And the supervisor had me look it up in the back of the, in the glossary. Okay, that makes sense, but where is? And I said, but where is the policy letter? Like, where is the reference on this? And it listed it there. It listed what the reference was, but there was nowhere I could find it.
Speaker 2:So I was like, isn't this in one of the tech volumes or in one of the big books? I said one of the big books is what I called it. Isn't this one of the big books? And he was like, yes, it is, but it's not here. That's what he said, but it's not in here. We don't have it in here. I said, oh well, where would I find it? I said, oh, but where would I find it? Oh, I guess like maybe in the Quall Library. So I said, okay, I'll be right back. So I leave the course room, I go up to the Quall Library and I find the exact reference. I read the entire reference that LRH laid out in this thing and came back in and continued my course, like for me. I wanted to see the reference. I wanted to see the thing you know, the red or white. I wanted to see what it was right, I wanted to see it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That was me Like I don't know how else not to look at it like if it says it's here, but I can't see it here, then where is it? Let me go find it.
Speaker 1:so I can get it right. Well, you know, there's that ref, that that one reference that isn't in any of the the new uh policy letter volumes, the oec volumes. That says you know, if, if you're ever having trouble with the tech, it isn't the tech, it's the personalities involved. And when I was on staff in 1990, it wasn't even in the OEC volumes then Okay, and it had already been removed and hasn't been in an OEC volume since it was in the file cabinet and I ran across it one day. So there are tons and tons of things that LRH said that they have just taken out of the narrative entirely and sanitized it because it doesn't serve their purpose.
Speaker 2:Well, it kind of reminds you of like even in government, where it's like how to say you invent a problem and to be the solution of yeah, problem like that, problem reaction solution oh yeah problem reaction solution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you invent a problem, get a reaction and you become the solution to that problem that you invented. Yeah, and it's like. It's like are they doing that? Are they inventing problems for pcs? Showing that, listen, this clearly is not effective. This clearly is not the way you want to feel, right? No, well, this is the solution to that. Go ahead and rich for another ethics cycle, or go ahead and do another.
Speaker 1:Yes, uh, three intents yeah, yeah, well, and the the SRD was one of those things is it wasn't ever an LRH rundown. It was made by somebody else. Lrh canceled it and then they reissued it and made it as an excuse that everybody had to do objectives and all this other shit that he said. He never, ever said that, never, ever said that.
Speaker 2:Listen, when they came out with srd. Uh, I was in dc and they came out with srd and they kept trying to raise me. I said I'm not doing that and they were like, yeah, but it's like, it's now on the bridge, it's now a part of the thing.
Speaker 1:Right, like pure srd right, which is a technical d grade of lrh's chart. It was never on there to begin with.
Speaker 2:It was never on there, but I remember when it wasn't on there. So I was like this is new, this is new, I don't know what this is. And so I had already done Puref and I had done HQS. And so they were like, oh well, since you've done HQS, we can attribute some of the things that you did on HQS and just go ahead and mark it off the check sheet for the SRD, so you'll get through SRD very quickly, just very quickly, because you already done the HQS. And I was like, oh, by the way, hqs for those of you listening, it's a Hubbard qualified Scientologist which helps you with your locationals and your objectives and the whole bit. So it was a really good, really good thing that I did. But what I'm saying is is that I didn't. I didn't feel a need for srd. I don't need no more touch a wall, I don't need no more lift the thing like I didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't need it right you'd already done it and they wanted you to do it again.
Speaker 2:That's right and and and and. Then they were like you know well, because it has even more processes in there that you'll really enjoy and they were trying to sell it. And to this day I'm not signing up for that. I'm not giving y'all no $2,500 to tell me to go touch another wall. I'm good.
Speaker 1:Right, right, you already got the gains on HQS Right.
Speaker 2:But see, my power of choice was like strong, like, like I want people. I guess my takeaway for all this and the reason why I even talked about uh, for you guys, about talking about choice is I want people to know that you have a choice and that your choice is something that you have to fight for. Like you have to fight for your choice to be free. Like, come on, where's this? Like, I hear what you're saying, people, and I hear what you're trying to sell me on and I totally get what you're working with, but show me the reference, let me see what it's about and where's this coming from. Show me the etymology of it. Show me the beginning of this whole track. Like, how did this even come up? Where did SRD come from? That wasn't there before. So, like, does nobody question that? Maybe it's just me.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's because people believe that who they're dealing with and what they're dealing with, that the people that are telling him this stuff think the way you do and they don't. They don't. They don't question things, they just take it for what they say is the truth or the tech. They don't know themselves, the people that are telling you this stuff, because they're just like, oh well, that's what they told me. So I'm going to, I'm going to forward this on to the next person.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying, yeah, because in the middle of believe is the word lie, be lie. And so I never believe anything out of hand like that, like in that belief is a lie somewhere. And so let me figure out what's really going on. And I've always kind of took, even when I was Jehovah's Witness, even when I was, you know, came from other modalities. I was like, let me figure out what the because I don't believe that. Right, I need to get that whole reference, I need to get the whole breakdown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know you're dealing with people who have been lied to themselves and then they perpetuate that lie because they don't know any better, they don't have any more power of choice than you do, because everything has been hidden away and the SRD, for example, has been put on the gray chart, where it didn't exist before, because they took down all of the earlier grade charts and and you would never, ever know that that happened well.
Speaker 2:So so on the great job before and and correct me if I'm wrong was trs and objectives. So what? What they, how they selling it is that the srd is just trs and objective, just repackaged or reworded yeah, it's, and it's done to a degree that you know.
Speaker 1:The objectives take somewhere in the neighborhood of about one to, depending on the person's case, between one and three intensives. At most Usually it's one and a half, two. But they're running people for hundreds of hours on these things because they've changed the end phenomena of these processes to where the person I mean it's key. They get keyed out, they go exterior a couple of times they've gotten the end of the process and then they throw them back into the body and they throw them out of the body and they go exterior and they throw them back into the body.
Speaker 1:This is painful for thetan to do over and over again, to the point to where the person pulls in so much mass. In some cases it can kill them. I mean you can overrun a process so much that it causes harm to the body and you trigger things off and they don't care because it's a blatant alteration of basic Scientology processes which is floating needle cognition, very good indicators. That's it for the objectives. But in the church it's this long other thing, because this is how we're going to do it. That way in the end, ultimately they're going to do a lot more auditing beyond the survival rundown to fix the survival rundown To make it right right.
Speaker 1:Right. Right, because you know key outs and key ins. The more things key out and the more you key them in, you build up mass and ridges on that and that affects the being and then you're going to have to sell them more auditing to fix that at some point. So it's really frightening. I mean I could get into how they handle knots. I mean without being divulging anything confidential. Their tone level in doing knots is not ARC-ful at all. It is an antagonistic approach that they use on knots. It's completely different than what LRA says to do on new OT 4, 5, 6s, of course, and 7, where you're out ARCing and you're causing more problems for the third and fourth dynamic than you are trying to take care of a being the way that it was meant to be, which is zero attitude. I mean that's ridiculous. And then making people call back case. They forced OTs to call back case that was blown on inspection and saying you can't blow anything on inspection, when it actually says it in the reference that this will happen both on New Era Dianetics and on NED for OTs. They're making people call back and create case.
Speaker 1:I have never heard a more gross out point of LRH tech in my entire life a more gross out point of LRH tech in my entire life. And there's no power of choice there either. It's other determinism. But people don't know this because they think this is what LRH said to do, because they've changed it and put his name down at the bottom. So how can you choose when you don't know that you're being lied to? You just go wow, this sounds a little odd, but okay, I'll do it because this is what they say to do. And if you question it, then you're sent to ethics and you're taken off and you've paid for all these services and now you can't do them, you know, and you can't get your money back. There's no power of choice there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you don't know the real data can the independent field, independent Scientology kind of, I guess, fall into that other determined pattern where it's like either you do it this way or else, like you're not a true Scientologist or you're not a like?
Speaker 1:I talked to you before about the kind of dogmatic religious viewpoint of it versus a technical application viewpoint of it right, yeah, yeah, I mean we saw that with one of the class eight auditors that I mentioned earlier was like well, you know you didn't get your training in the church, you know, so it isn. It isn't valid. Yeah, but you're an independent how does that?
Speaker 2:work, that that shouldn't be a criteria.
Speaker 1:I don't understand that right and and and that's. That's where you get this dogmatic viewpoint of whether you know you're you're really a scientologist or you know it's a true religion and now you're starting to be a holy roller and all that shit. You know there's no holy roller thing. This is a it's a religious philosophy. It's a religious philosophy. Lrh made it a religion for tax purposes, in order to protect the church, and that's why he did that, because that was the only way to do it. But it remained a religious philosophy. And a religious philosophy says well, you know, know, everybody has a right to get auditing in in the, the church, and they, and, and, if they so choose. Maybe they didn't know that they had which is the title of this podcast.
Speaker 1:They didn't know that they had a choice we do have some people that that see stuff online and they like, well, I'm going to try this instead, and they come do services with us and they were never in the church at all At all. Yeah, yeah, so you know, there's nothing wrong with people.
Speaker 2:And those are probably the easier and better PCs.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah they are, because I mean, you know, the big problem is is that there's a lot more work in fixing somebody in the church because they've already been maligned by the church and the out tech in the church and that stuff has been indoctrinated and indoctrinated.
Speaker 1:And you know it's, it's, it's not a you know it's. It's not wrong for somebody to go to the church and get, get auditing, and then come out into the independent field and still call themselves a scientologist. I mean, you know they're, they're, they're an independent Scientologist once they leave the church and they realize something's going on here. But it's so hard to find the right information, to know what's true, because whatever, just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true, right, and that's the problem. And you know we've tried to put that on our website. But you know, getting getting it out to people and letting them know that, hey, you know this does exist and you can get this stuff the way that it was intended to be done and it doesn't have to take hundreds of thousands of dollars and tens of years and all of that it it doesn't, it didn't, it didn't. Yeah, it didn't take that in the seventies. You know, I mean it's. It's fundamentally easier to get your services now through AOGP than anywhere else on on the internet or in the world, because you can get audited remotely at home. You can get your training at home. You can get standardly checked out at home. You can get your training at home. You can get standardly checked out at home, you know, or you can come down here to the to, to the retreat, and you can do it in person if you want to, and that's that's totally fine too.
Speaker 1:And, you know, press the flesh and meet people, and you know that third dynamic thing is something that people like you know. Yeah, you know I like being in a room full of Scientologists and everything. Well, you know it needs to be said that the independent field isn't incredibly large, but you know, and you're looking at it isn't large because so many people have been chewed up and spit out. There's two types of people in the church people that have gotten out of the church and people who have gotten out Out. Out means you know one of my best friends when I was in the church who was a powerhouse and helped develop CCHR and everything. I tried to tell him about it in 2004,. And I can't, because my brother, my wife, my business partners are all Scientologists and that's how they get you as well is they'll get everybody to disconnect from you. If you have a power of choice. There's no power of choice there. If you choose to do something else, that's suppressive.
Speaker 2:Well, hold on a second, because that's still a choice. You got to understand, like you gotta understand you talking to somebody who come, who was disfellowshipped as or disassociated myself, uh, at, from the, the watchtower bible and track society of jehovah's witnesses, and I knew when I disassociated myself that that means disassociating myself from my mother. That was still my choice. Mama bye, because I gotta go like I can't continue doing this. This is this, that this doesn't align with my spirit, right. So, even then, the power of choice is there. I don't understand these, these. I don't understand. I understand it, I understand it. It that's that, to me, those ties that bind should not over, supersede or be superior to your power of choice. Maybe that's the way I'm saying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, okay, I don't talk to my mama for some years, Okay, I'm eternity.
Speaker 1:What's the big deal, right? Well, you know, one of the big things is, you know this disconnection thing and you have to disconnect from these people because they're being suppressive to you. And LRH canceled disconnection, the church brought disconnection back and that way they can keep you in line. Now it's true that if you have to disconnect from somebody who's suppressing you, that's preventing you from being on auditing or training lines and making it difficult for you, then you might want to take a look and step back and say, okay, maybe I got to do this for me, you know, type of a thing. But having somebody enforce it on you, there's no power of choice there. And you know, we don't have that problem with AOGP. We don't have that problem. We don't have that problem because it's completely self-determined independent Scientology.
Speaker 2:And the other beautiful thing about it, in my opinion, is that when you start going up the bridge and when you start reclaiming yourself and you start realizing who I really am, it kind of almost happens naturally Right. Realizing who I really am, it kind of almost happens naturally right. The people who are not there for you, the people who don't support you, the friends or the family members or whatever that are antagonistic towards you and who you are and what you're doing, it kind of almost naturally happens that you don't call that person as much, or you don't go by there as much, or you don't see them as much or whatever. Or you start seeing them degrade and I mean I've seen everything from people start kind of going downhill because they're antagonistic towards me, like they start going downhill because of it, and so it's almost kind of like they're taking themselves out of the equation of your life, and all because you're choosing to be free and you're choosing to continue up your own track, whatever that means for you.
Speaker 2:So I'm not being dogmatic about it at all. It could be any part of your life. Have you ever been in a situation where you fall in love with somebody and your parents might not approve of that person and just because you love that person and you want to be with that person, but parents don't approve I don't see mama and daddy that much. That doesn't mean that you don't love them and that doesn't mean that it's just that my mom and dad don't approve of my wife. Okay, I got to be with what I want to be, with who I want to be with.
Speaker 2:To me it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it happens naturally if you have self-determinism and you don't have other determinism going on.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that that's the point that I'm trying to make that in one rehabilitating their own power of choice and knowing that they can make the choice regardless of the consequences, knowing that they can make the choice. Once you make the choice, it's yours and you get to run with it, and you get to enjoy it and have fun with it, and life actually takes off when you're operating in your own self-determinism. Whatever that is Right. You understand what I'm saying. It takes off. So, if nothing else out of this conversation, I want people to know that when you choose for yourself, you're better for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the thing is. You know you're PTS, the next step and the next step and you can't just skip and do one grade here. That's way above your level, that sort of thing. I mean that I understand, but the thing is, is when they're forcing you to do things that didn't exist on the grade chart, you're already pts to them well, the or else, the or else implies choice.
Speaker 2:Now do this or else else, right, so there's still a choice there, yeah, and you know ethics.
Speaker 1:All ethics is is to get you to knock off things that are preventing you from getting up the bridge or achieving a particular goal. In other words, he says you know, knock off other fish to fry. Is this just trying to get you in the direction of survival? But when you've got somebody saying that survival is this way and survival is really that way, you need to be able to differentiate on which path survival is on.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you just reminded me. Thank you for saying that, because you're right. If they're saying survival is this way or survival is that way, there's a scripture in the Bible that says that there will be those that say that the kingdom of heaven is here. No, no, the kingdom of heaven is in you. And so I think that that's kind of my viewpoint in all of my spiritual journey that no matter where I go, the kingdom of heaven is in me, right? This higher state of awareness, this higher state of consciousness, this freedom that I'm looking for, freedom from and freedom to like, it's in me period. And whatever modality I use to help explore that aspect of myself or to discover or rediscover that aspect of myself, that's the modality I'm using, but it's all in me.
Speaker 1:It's not low here, low there, it's in me, right, and that's what we're trying to restore by getting up the bridge. And the viewpoint that you have is because you've gotten up the bridge and you've got up the bridge, you know, in a standard way, uh, you know, through 400 plus hours of dianetics and you, you did it self-determinatedly over a year and a half and you didn't have somebody telling you you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, we handled everything afterwards which the way lrh describes it that needed needed to be put in, but it didn't take very long at all, because that's that is the way that lrh designed this whole thing. You already had it and we just we just filled in the holes the way he said that you should have done it back in the 70s.
Speaker 2:The brilliant part about working with you, jonathan, I think, if I can recall correctly, I signed up for my bridge package in October if I wasn't mistaken, october of 2023. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah. And then june of 2024 is when I had the clear cog and and kind of did my whole thing or whatever, and it was. It was beautiful, the time period that we worked together and you and I were going in session almost every day, uh, five days a week, and unless, except when I was traveling or I wasn't sessionable, um, or the technology or whatever, but, like other than that, we were in session every day. And that's what I love, like.
Speaker 2:I loved being in session because I get a win every single time, you know, and and the amount of times I went exterior, the amount of times you helped me with all that stuff, like all of that, it was so magical to discover all these aspects of myself on the L's, on the grades, on the like.
Speaker 2:It was so magical to rediscover those things. And so for me, that choice of let me run at this as quickly as possible and as much as possible, that's a part of the reason why I came down here to South Africa, to the retreat. I came to the retreat because I wanted to, like you said, press the flesh. I wanted to be in the space, I wanted to rub elbows with you, I wanted to sit in front of you and get on the cans if that was necessary. Whatever we did, I wanted to do it because it's fun to do, not because I was other determined or doubt shouts, doubt shouts and doubt shouts nots. It was, yeah, this is how I want to run with this. And so my job, my business, my whatever, my people, my family, my relationships, all that stuff had to be give me a minute Because I got to go do me, and that's been my viewpoint for years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's you know. It goes quick. If you're doing the right things, it doesn't have to take forever. That's the point. And that's when you have self-determinism, power of choice. Artie, did you want to say something?
Speaker 2:There's no drudgery. There's no drudgery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fun yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I'd just like to remind everyone number one having the correct technology. Number two, knowing the technology. Number three, knowing it is correct. Number four teaching correctly the correct technology. Number five, applying the technology. Number six, seeing that the technology is correctly applied. Number seven hammering out of existence incorrect technology. Number eight, knocking out incorrect applications. Number nine, closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology. And number 10, closing the door on incorrect applications, just as a friendly reminder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, people Scientology as a friendly reminder Yep, I love it, people Scientology working, independent Scientology working. And you can only find that in the independent field, because you don't know what you're dealing with and you don't know what you don't know dealing with the church, and it's okay to find out, it's okay to realize that this doesn't have to take forever. You can go from the bottom of the bridge to OT and roughly two years. It doesn't take very long. You, you can. You can go clear in less than six months.
Speaker 3:And I think this is where it comes back to the choice as well, because number one having the correct technology and number two knowing the technology. Like if you don't know that you've got the technology, how do you know you've got the technology?
Speaker 1:that's right and that was what I was trying to say earlier becomes really difficult yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you do have a choice and it's okay to choose and it's okay to look into things and find out what what's going on. And it's not easy to differentiate it because they hide it so well. I mean, you know, they've got thousands of people that work on this stuff to change things and they do whatever Miscavige tells them to do to change it, because if they don't, well you know, they're making 50 bucks a week in the Sea Org and they've got everything to lose. So they're going to follow what he says and they're going to do what he says and think that because he's dear leader, that he knows what he's talking about, and they don't question it. The thing is is you have to question it and you do have a choice and you can be self-determined and it can be fun and you don't have to. Well, watch what I say. I got to be careful because these guys you know this happens to everybody in the church You're afraid to say anything. And if you're afraid to say anything or you're afraid, why are you there?
Speaker 2:Come on Right, that's it Anything. If you're afraid to say anything at your job, why are you there? If you're afraid to say anything in a relationship, why are you there? If you're afraid to say anything in an organization, why are you there Like, don't do that, come out Right, you're suppressed. There you go, you know it's interesting. It's interesting because you talked about how it doesn't take a long time. Well, you talked about how it doesn't take a long time and I love how you keep letting people know that listen, when you're really doing this thing right and you're doing this thing effectively, it doesn't's a great deal to do with time in decision.
Speaker 2:Decision and time have a lot in common. When you have clean, clear decision, you have clean, clear time, and when you have an indecision, there is an unclarity about time. If you are trying to decide anything and having a difficulty in trying to decide that thing, the root of its trouble is time, not necessarily data. It's time. There's a time hang up there somewhere and if you look for that back of the data, usually the data becomes needless. So I love this because when you make a decision to go up the bridge, when you make a decision to get enrolled when you make a decision to go, come down to South Africa or whatever you're going to do. When you make a decision to do it, the time thing kind of clears up. Clean, clear decision, gives you clean, clear time and the time moves very, very quickly for you to get to what your goals are yeah, it doesn't take forever.
Speaker 1:You just have to just decide and the time falls away and you're getting the real thing. You're getting it in real time and as you're doing it, these gains are a hell of a lot better when you're self-determined and you're not being pressed into this cookie cutter mold. That isn't real LRH. Real LRH it feels good. Real LRH moves swiftly, cognitions occur, your rudiments are in. Even if a person's rudiments are in in the church, the rudiments aren't in because they're still under this suppression. I gotta watch what I say. I gotta watch what I do.
Speaker 3:I've gotta do everything.
Speaker 1:They tell me what to do.
Speaker 3:Uncertainty. It's pretty cool because, like, we can actually talk about whatever. We don't have to be careful on what we say or how we say exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3:There's none of that you know I could tell you about my day and it won't be well. You know we better get you checked out. You know it's a bit different when it's like john. I really need your help. Can you help me out with this? Sure versus hey, I got some shit going on and I just want to be a human and talk about it without worrying about about it coming back at me at a later stage or yeah, um, we're more like mates like mates are, but we all have a common interest, and that's to better ourselves it's a brotherhood, lrh said you have a brotherhood with the universe and with your fellow man, and and I think that that's the way it should feel.
Speaker 2:it should feel like a brotherhood, not like a conspiracy written you know. You know, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that, don't say this, don't say that. I remember I used to say everything when I was, when I was on lines. I used to say everything. If I went and looked at something on the internet, I'd be like I found this on the internet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And if you tell them that you've been looking on?
Speaker 1:the internet they'll pull you off of your auditing. I mean LRH, lr of your auditing. I mean lrh, lrh. Looked all around and read psychology and psychiatry books and everything like that, and if you do that now, they boot you out. What right, what just happened? What just happened? That should tell you everything, right there, because scientology is about knowing how to know. It doesn't, it isn't. Don't look where we tell you not to look, right, that's. That's, that's awareness. It's up the middle of the grade chart, it's the awareness scale. It you know. Well, don't look at these suppressive subjects. And you know all this stuff. You know they'll take you right off the auditing, right there, as soon as you, as soon as you mention it. Now you're, you're into ethics and you have to pay for ethics time and all this stuff, and that's because you've stepped outside of this mental prison.
Speaker 1:And it isn't. It isn't the subject of scientology, it's the corporate scientology, because they don't want you to know their withholds, boy oh boy, and therefore your rudiments are out because of their withholds. That's what it comes down to. You're, you're, you're, you're drinking the kool-aid that they're serving and you don't. You don't have to do that. It's okay to look, it's okay to talk to people about things. It's okay to have viewpoints and you know there's the free speech is alive and well at aogp and independent scientology, and you know it's a. The subject of scientology is really broad. People are going to look at things. Free speech is alive and well at AOGP and independent Scientology, and you know it's a. The subject of Scientology is really broad. People are going to look at things. Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1:Do I suggest that you look at the upper level material before you're ready for it? Absolutely not, because that's a spoiler and and you're not supposed to because you're not there yet. You have to be at that level of awareness to get that, and that's something that we struggle with with people. But you know, I I can't make them wrong if they have because they're curious, but I I have to repair people on it, sometimes most of the time because they have. But you know that's that's all, all part of it. I mean, lrh did the same thing, otherwise we wouldn't have Scientology now, would we? Right, take a look, take a look, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I hope everybody got a big kick out of this and we opened some minds, and this half-price bridge package is an amazing, amazing deal and it's a mere fraction of what you pay for in the church. Give us a call 816-355-4606, or reach out to us on ao-gporg, or come sign up for free and register on collegeofindependentscientologycom and you can take some of the free courses. You can see everybody that's in there. It's a community and this community is about free speech, wins, having fun with the subject of independent Dianetics and Scientology, and we'd love to have you free your mind, red pill or blue pill, and we'd love to have you free your mind Red pill or blue pill, as Morpheus said in the Matrix. That's quite literally what's going on here. Yes, so we hope you enjoyed the podcast and we'll see you later in the week with another one, namaste, and we love you. Bye-bye.
Speaker 3:Peace, bye-bye, peace, bye-bye, thank you, thank you.