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Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE11EP2 - Independent Scientology - Rightness and Wrongness
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In this episode we delve into the complexities of rightness and wrongness within independent Scientology. The episode, titled "Rightness and Wrongness," explores the pervasive nature of rightness and wrongness in our daily lives, decisions, and interactions through the lens of independent Scientology concepts. It's a conversation meant to shine light on how decisions are often a struggle between these two polarities, emphasizing how rightness is defined by the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.
Throughout the episode, we highlight the implications of pursuing rightness and the pitfalls of justifying wrong actions. We focus on L. Ron Hubbard's tech and the relevance in understanding human behavior and ethics across various dimensions, from personal to societal levels. Key topics include the difference between genuine rightness and asserted self-rightness, the role of justifications in sustaining wrongness, and how the pursuit of authentic rightness can lead to personal liberation and improved ethical standings. With engaging dialogue and actionable insights, this episode encourages listeners to question their biases and strive for genuine ethical and personal growth for themselves and towards others.
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All right and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast. This is Season 11, episode 2. I'm here with Quentin Stroud and the title of this podcast is going to be Rightness or you Can Be Right. How are you, quentin?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm doing very good, good.
Speaker 2:How are you, Quinn? Yeah, I'm doing very good.
Speaker 1:Good. So let's kick this off here with rightness and wrongness, where they form a common source of argument and struggle. The concept of rightness reaches very high and very low on the tone scale, and it's something that everybody deals with every minute of every day, especially with interactions with other people, and we want to talk about that and shine some light on it and give you some ideas. If you're new to independent scientology or not, this is a great topic, because rightness is everywhere, it's pervasive.
Speaker 2:So LRH says what is right and what go ahead. Well, I was just going to say. I think that a part of the reason why this is such an important podcast for those that are listening it really has to do with how you make decisions, how you move through life when something happens, or, if something happens, how you respond to it. And so when we're talking about rightness, we're not just talking about like winning an argument right. We're not talking about like I'm right and you're wrong or something like that. Whatever we're going to talk about that, but what we're talking about is like how we make decisions that are right for us, how you, as an independent Scientologist, are making decisions that are right for you, for your life, for your dynamics and across the board. And that's why this is such a powerful conversation. Am I right in what I'm doing? Is this the right thing to do? So when we talk about rightness, like you said, it's pervasive. It's in every step you take and every move you make.
Speaker 1:LRH says that what is right and what is wrong are not necessarily definable for everyone. They vary according to existing moral codes and disciplines. And before Scientology, despite their use in law as a test of sanity, quote unquote had no basis in fact, but only an opinion of what was right and what is wrong. Because what's one person's viewpoint of what's right and wrong and what's one person's another person's viewpoint of what's right and wrong is relative to their viewpoint, which their viewpoint is where they're at on the tone scale, and that's a very modifying factor of how they see the world, whether it's red, blue, yellow, green lenses or clear lenses, he says. In Dianetics and Scientology a more precise definition arose. The definition became as well the true definition of an overt act.
Speaker 1:An overt act is not just injuring someone or something. An overt act is an act of omission or commission which does the least good for the least number of dynamics or the most harm to the greatest number of dynamics. Thus, a wrong action is wrong to the degree that it harms the greatest number of dynamics, and a right action is right to the degree that it harms the greatest number of dynamics and a right action is right to the degree that it benefits the greatest number of dynamics. Many people think an action isn't over it simply because it is destructive to them. All destructive actions or omissions are overt acts. This is not true. For an act of commission or omission to be an overt act, it must harm the greater number of dynamics. A failure to destroy can be therefore an overt act. Assistance to something that would harm a greater number of dynamics can also be an overt act.
Speaker 1:An overt act is something that harms broadly. A beneficial act is something that helps broadly. It can be a beneficial act to harm something that would be harmful to the greater number of dynamics. And this is from the you Can Be Right HCO Bulletin. This is 22 July 1963. So where do we go from here on this?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll say, you know, as you were just reading the LRH reference, what came up for me is when Martin Luther King Jr said the wrong thing to do is for good men to stay silent when dealing with discrimination and oppression and injustice in the world and in our country. It says that the wrong thing to do is for good men to stay silent. So we think, just naturally, we think that, oh, you hurt me and so you're wrong, or something hurt, and so it was the wrong thing to do, right, because it hurt me. Well, that might not always be true. It might hurt, but it also might help, right, it might hurt, but it also might help, right, it might hurt, but it also might heal, right. And so, um, it's not just, it's not a blanket like, oh, just because something was destructive or painful or hurtful doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It actually could be a good thing right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have to look at the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, uh, in order to and you know, it's easy to justify that. That's. That's the slippery slope. It's easy to justify something just because, uh, it's in your favor or it's what you want to do, and that's that's the thing he says. The answer lies in an impulse inborn in everyone to try to be right. This is an insistence which rapidly becomes divorced from right action, and it is accompanied by an effort to make others wrong. As we see, in hypercritical cases, a being who is apparently unconscious is still being right and making others wrong. It is the last criticism.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you this stuff is so powerful because how many times have we been in a situation and the person whom we're dealing with, or connected with, or arguing with or whatever, that person is trying less to come to understanding or less to come to some kind of workable outcome, and they're more interested in making you wrong Right, or it might be you doing the same thing, like I'm more interested in trying to prove somebody wrong than to find a common ground or to find some kind of way to move forward. And so when he talks about the greatest guilt for the greatest number of dynamics, for the greatest period of time, or the wrong actions you do will be the acts which harms the greatest number of dynamics, then what we kind of simplify is how right am I in my decision-making, how many dynamics is this benefiting, and or in my decision, how many dynamics might this be harming? You know, in studying spiritual science and magical sciences and stuff like that, one of the things that we would talk about a long time ago was about making changes in reality in order to try to benefit yourself. But it could be harming somebody else, harming another, and I'll tell you a quick story.
Speaker 2:A long time ago I was in Florida and a hurricane was coming you know hurricane and so I was like, oh no, I cannot, cause I had to go to work. I had some things to do. I like I did not want the hurricane to come. So I go outside and I stand near the beach and I was like you will not come here, right, tuck it to the, tuck it to the store. And it didn't. It literally diverted course and went up the coast and decimated uh, uh, north carolina, so south carolina, north carolina, and barely just touched into I think it was like virginia or something like that, and they just decimated the coast. It didn't hit florida, right.
Speaker 2:And I say all that to say that just because it was right for me, right, don't mean it was right thing to do. You understand what I'm saying and so I had to deal with that on my own. But the point I'm making is that when we make these decisions about what we're going to do, that benefits us, you also, as a responsible being, as a responsible spiritual being. We're talking about independent Scientologists who want to do what's right in the world, who want to create change and want to be a better person, and so forth and so on, you got to think about how might this affect the rest of your dynamics? Right, and that's a really big, grand way of looking at the world. You're not looking at it through this myopic small lens of does this feel good to me? You're looking at it through the big lens of am I a responsible ethical being? And if so, I might need to take an L on this one right In order to benefit the greater number of dynamics.
Speaker 1:Just saying Right and you have to be careful of justifications on it. It's very difficult to isolate yourself and make a decision of magnitude without having to sort of recuse yourself from everything, and maybe it's really painful. It's really difficult to confront which pain and confront go along with each other what the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics on that thing is. And pushing yourself to be able to do that is the hardest part, because it's very easy to justify what it is that you're doing to make it easier to confront, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, when we look at justification, I think the next thing he says is that we have seen a defensive person, someone who gets defensive, explaining away the most flagrant wrongness. This is justification as well. Most explanations of conduct, no matter how far-fetched, seem perfectly right to the person making them, since he or she is only asserting self-rightness and other wrongness. And that goes to this wrongness and that goes to this uh, this is lh. That goes to again how, if, if you're, if, if the intention and you're doing this is for you to be right, right and others being wrong in it, that's coming from a like, almost like an evil purpose. That's coming from a place of like, I'm right, you're wrong, right, and this thing, this thing, it. We can't justify the most gross and heinous acts. You know I'm talking about like, you know, concentration camps and and and slavery and different things like can, can justify some of the most gross, please say flag said, flagrant, right, flagrant wrongnesses, because it's this self-righteous or self-rightness he says and other wrongness.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's I mean it comes down to. You really have to have a broad point of view and you have to be able to look at things from the broad point of view and then act on it. And that takes a lot of understanding of what those ramifications and you're just looking at it's all about you and not anybody else. Well then, you're very myopic on the first dynamic.
Speaker 2:Which is terrible. Yeah was a reference where he talked about like, even like a suppressive person they're. They're really functioning in this very psychotic kind of place where everybody's out to get me right. It's like, it's like a fear thing that turns on yeah, yeah, well it's, it's almost well, it's a.
Speaker 1:The three types of ptsness you know there's a suppressive in your environment Currently. Type two is suppressive in your past smacks of somebody in your current environment. And then type three is everybody is out to get you and they're tapping your telephones and you know that's the worst kind and any kind of PTSness. You know that's the worst kind and any kind of PTS-ness. You know a PTS-ness is based off of overts that you've committed against the suppressive, but it could also be. You know that there are engrams in place that you're operating. Off of that make you think that, off of that make you think that a certain class of person or group or whatever is suppressing you because you have this alter isness that is persisting into present time. And so you look through your rightness because your rightness is your survival. How?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 1:survive, and that goes to valences as well as a solution to a problem. So if you're behaving a certain way, you're behaving a certain way in order to survive, which survival is the ultimate problem. Per the dianetic axioms, you can see how your viewpoint could be skewed towards what rightness is to you, as opposed to what rightness really is to you and the way that it's affecting you in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And LRH says here that this is a fundamental aberration. All wrong actions are a result of an error, followed by an instance on having been right would involve being wrong. One insists the error was a right action and so repeats it. So imagine you know LRA talks about hell down seven, or on the calculator, you keep hitting that seven, keep hitting that five, keep hitting that seven. You know whatever right and this whole thing where it's like it's just keep getting hit, keep getting hit.
Speaker 2:Well, the right thing to do is to be wrong for that moment. Right, be wrong for the moment so that you can correct the error. Right, I was wrong in that assessment, in that flow, in that thing that I was doing, or whatever it could be. I was wrong in that. So let me stop doing the wrong so that I can do the right. But the aberrative way of doing it is no, no, no. I was right. I was right in this, I was right in this choice, I was right in making this deal happen. I was right in, you know, whatever I decided to do and you keep trying to make the wrong thing right and you keep trying to make the wrong thing right.
Speaker 2:This happens in every area of life. This happens when we eat. I was just doing this whole thing about eating. I was talking to a client of mine and when we eat that we justify it. I had somebody tell me that was having financial difficulties and told me that, but I work hard, I deserve to treat myself Well. Yeah, treat yourself to a paid off bill. Treat yourself to a credit card bill that's paid off. Don't treat yourself to a freaking night out at the pub. You know what I mean. Treat yourself to something that's going to be right for you. Right, but, but, and yet the fundamental of aberration is to keep doing the wrong thing over and over and over again to try to make it right that somehow, somehow, some way, it'll balance out, somehow, some way. You know, going out to the club and shaking my groove thing, you know, when I know I need to be doing something else, somehow, someway, it'll be all right. No, Right.
Speaker 2:Terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So he says the last defense of any being is I was right, that applies to anyone. When that defense crumbles, the lights go out. We're faced with the unlovely picture of asserted brightnesses in the face of flagrant wrongnesses, and any success in making the being realize the wrongnesses result in an immediate degradation, unconsciousness or at best a loss of personality. Pavlov, freud, psychiatry alike never grasped the delicacy of these facts and so evaluated and punished the criminal and insane into further criminality and insanity, which we see all the time yeah yeah, and we and we see the effects of it yeah, and it just.
Speaker 1:It just carries on as a, as an, as a wave, and and and propagates. He says that the last defense is a belief in personal rightness, regardless of charges and evidence alike, and that the effort to make another wrong results only in degradation. But all this would be a hopeless impasse leading to highly chaotic social conditions, were it not for one saving fact All repeated and incurable wrongnesses stem from the exercise of a last defense trying to be right. Therefore, the compulsive wrongnesses stem from the exercise of a last offense trying to be right. Therefore, the compulsive wrongnesses can be cured, no matter how mad it may seem or how thoroughly its rightness is insisted upon. Now, this is monitored by do they?
Speaker 1:Does a person want help If they don't want help? If they don't want help because help becomes betrayal to people. Yeah, because they've been so betrayed in being offered help, thinking it was help, and then betrayed, that they now think that help is betrayal. So you can only help those who want to help themselves. And if you can't, well then you have to look at the viewpoint of what it is that is the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:There's the conundrum yeah, and he says and he says by getting by, getting the offender off the compulsive repetition of the wrongness. One then cures it. But how he cures it? By rehabilitating the ability to be right. This has limitless application. And let me tell you this he says in training, in social skills, in marriage, in law, in life, if you can get a person to rehabilitate the ability to be right and not to assert your rightness or I'm right, you're wrong, not that that's a different thing, that's a different.
Speaker 2:I want you to get the difference. There's a difference between I'm right, you're wrong, or I'm right and they're wrong, and I'm right and everybody else is wrong. That's different than just the ability to be right. I know it sounds like really weird, like what are you talking about? But when you're talking about dealing with these wrongnesses and righting the wrongs righting the wrongs or correcting your errors in life, correcting things in life, this is why auditing works, hear me. This is why auditing works, because when you sit down with an auditor and you go over your own case hear this you go over your own case, not somebody evaluating for you, not somebody asking you well, how did you feel about that? When you go over your own case and you spot something that was an error in your own case and whether it be in Dianetics or whether it be in Scientology, auditing, when you spot something that was wrong in your own case and you go in and you correct it, you write it, you get the right viewpoint on it. That is your ability to be right, not to make somebody else wrong. So therefore, I'm right.
Speaker 2:You see what I'm saying. It's the ability to, it's the ability to be right, because it's the, it's the right, the right perspective, it's the right viewpoint, it's the right observation of what is, this, is what is thisness, is, or to as-is. Something in Scientology means to you, as-is it, it, oh, wow, that's right. And it no longer has charge over you, no longer has any force over you, no longer has any command over you, you see. So no more of the. I'm right, you're wrong, and I can't believe he did that to me. I can't believe she said that. I can't believe all that stuff.
Speaker 1:It don't do nothing, but keep you continuing in the error you see, you're in a, you're in a loop of of being right.
Speaker 2:That's actually harming you man, I'm telling you so. It says this has limitless application in training, in social skills, in marriage, in law, in life. He gives an example. He said a wife is always burning dinner. Despite scolding, threats of divorce, anything, the compulsion continues. One can wipe this wrongness out by getting her to explain what is right about her cooking. This may well evoke a raging tirade in some extreme cases, but if one flattens the question that all dies away as she happily ceases to burn dinners dies away and she happily ceases to burn dinners Carried to classic proportions but not entirely necessary to end the compulsion, a moment in the past will be recovered, when she accidentally burned a dinner and could not face up to having done a wrong action.
Speaker 2:To be right, she therefore had to burn dinners. Isn't this something like like like she at some points in her track somewhere back there? You do something wrong and couldn't face up to it. Couldn't. Couldn't confront that wrongness. Couldn't confront that wrongness sorry, my phone went down. Couldn't confront that wrongness and so had to continue to be wrong in order to try to make herself right. And we've seen it happen. We've seen somebody just double down. We call it doubling down. So had to continue to be wrong in order to try to make us a fright. We've seen it happen. We've seen somebody just double down. We call it doubling down. We see somebody double down on something when you know that's wrong. You know it's wrong and you'll come back and say well, let me see how I can do it again, let me see if I can do it again.
Speaker 1:Right, he says Dayton's on the way down don't believe they are wrong because they don't dare believe it, and so they do not change. And those who won't be audited at all are totally fixed on asserted rightness and are so close to gone that any question of their past rightness would, they feel, destroy them.
Speaker 2:That's wow that's really something yeah, yeah, that yeah. If there's a part of you and I'm going to say this to those of you who are listening if there's a part of you that is reaching for auditing, if there's a part of you that's wanting to get your life right, wanting to get yourself right, wanting to get your finances right, wanting to get your situation right I'm telling you what I know, not what I read out of a book Okay, if you are reaching for auditing because you want to get life right, this time, now is the time to do it, because if you're avoiding auditing, if you're, if you're letting I'm telling you what I know if you're letting stuff get in the way of this, what you're doing is is you're you're, you're keeping yourself in the wrongness. Whatever the wrongness is I'm not trying to judge for you, evaluate for you. Whatever it is that's out in your life, whatever the ruin is for you, you keep yourself in the ruin by not confronting the wrongness of your own situation. And to pull off something that Jesus said in the scripture, there was a story where a man said his father was dying and he said I have to go bury my father and then I'll come and follow you. And Jesus looked at the man. He said you let the dead bury their dead. You come, follow me. And the man walked away, sad.
Speaker 2:When it says and even in, even in the story, the story, jesus was like no, no, no, you come, do the right thing. You come, you come, you come, move towards greatness, towards wholeness, towards betterment. You come and get the help that you need to be a better being. You let the other beings handle that situation. You see, and the man walked away sad. And I say this to say is that there's things that's going to show up in life. There's machinations and mechanisms that are in place that you may not be aware of okay, that you may not be aware of, that are in place to keep you down, keep you in this hell down. Seven things keep you in this, this, this, this idea that I gotta keep doing this over and over and over again, because this is the right thing to do. I swear it is right. And if you, if you are able to finally confront that and see that there's something else that might be back there that you might not be aware of, I tell you what it'll change your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he says you can be right. How? By getting another to explain how he or she is right until he or she, being less defensive now, can take less compulsive point of view. You don't have to agree with what they think, you only have to acknowledge what they say and suddenly they can be right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't that beautiful, isn't that beautifully simple? Isn't that beautiful that in independent Scientology, you can sit down and you can rehabilitate your ability to be right and you can feel good about yourself, you can realize what you're actually truly capable of on a big, macrocosmic kind of viewpoint, and it's like okay. And then, when it comes to the smaller decisions, when it comes to the little things, when it comes to the things that I need to correct in my own smaller dynamics and in my own little personal life, fair enough, listen, now that you are better at being right, go ahead, attack it, go ahead, handle it, and you'll realize that the things that you might've thought were right for you or right to do or right to have or right to be in it, might not be the right thing, right, right.
Speaker 1:Because it's better for it, because you're trying to be right all the time, and the only way to to uh dispense with that is to get in session and not be evaluated for, not be invalidated and to have an order, direct your attention to these things that have been keeping you down.
Speaker 1:And they've been keeping you down because you thought you were doing the right thing for survival's sake. And when you start looking at it from a less sensitive viewpoint and you've de-stimulated this and gotten the charge off, then you can start looking at it and going oh, I was doing this because of this, but that wasn't really what I should have been doing. And it's not that you're wrong, it's just that you were trying to be right, and that's okay. That's okay. But you can. You can un-mock it and you can as is it, and you can get it cleaned up, and now the things that were going wrong in your life will go right, because now you have a different viewpoint on your own rightness. It's not a matter of wrongness, it's a matter of trying to be right where the rightness was just something else. You just couldn't see it, and that's it.
Speaker 2:Right. It's interesting he ends off, or starts to end off, by saying as Scientologists, we are faced by a frightened society who think they would be wrong if we were found to be right. They think that they would be wrong if we were found to be right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:We need a weapon to correct this. We have one here. Think about this how many times in your life have you confronted someone or been in a situation where you could almost see that they were terrified that they would be wrong? If you were to be right, if you were to be a good person, if you were to be a good guy, if you were to be a good gal, if you were to be a good business person or whatever, if you were to be good at who you are and what you do in your business or organization or whatever, if you were to be really good and right in what you're doing, then they might be wrong in what they're doing, and so they try to suppress you and so they try to harm you. We need a weapon to correct this. I love that word. I love a good weapon. I like to fight.
Speaker 2:We need a weapon to correct this, and we have one here, and it's a righteous weapon, and I try to preach at you. I'm just saying what I know. It's a righteous weapon. Righteousness simply means right thought and right action, and so it's the right action. It's the right weapon to use in order to better yourself, not to make others wrong or to prove yourself. No, it's to better yourself so that you have the ability to be right again. And thus, the road to rightness is the road to survival. Thus, lrh, the road to rightness, is the road to survival. And every person somewhere is somewhere on that scale, somewhere. We're moving on this road. We're on the same journey. I'm not better than you. You're no better than me. The only difference is is that I'm willing to be wrong in order to make it right, Are you?
Speaker 1:And there we go, and there we go the ability to confront that changes have to be made in oneself, based off of a path that they strayed off into and didn't know it.
Speaker 1:And that's what auditing is so we hope that you've been illuminated on this with this reference from LRH. You can be right and we'd like to get you in session. We've got a half-price bridge package right now and we can get you up the bridge for a mere fraction, a mere fraction of what it would cost in the church standardly, quickly, every day, in your pajamas at home, remote auditing. What are you waiting for? Let's get this going, let's get you in session and let's get your rightnesses right, right, right, and we can handle this, so that you can be on the path that you want and you can achieve your postulates, your goals, and make the postulate you want and see them happen immediately, immediately, almost frighteningly so. This is what Scientology and Dianetics auditing does and what the OT levels do for you. It doesn't take a long time. You can go clear in less than six months. Less than six months. You can go OT in less than two years, and I mean really, really OT, and for a fraction of the cost. So give us a call 816-355-4606, or hop on ao-gporg.
Speaker 1:Please join us on our social media platform at collegeofindependentscientologycom. We have tons of people joining every day now. Independentscientologycom. We have tons of people joining every day now. And we have a third dynamic group that you can be part of everywhere. We have apps for the college so you can chat, you can do courses, you can listen to lectures, you can talk to the AI and get questions answered, do research, get in touch with us, get up the bridge and be as right as possible as you can be and let other people be as right as they can be and and grant people beingness. Let us, let us help you, help me, help you, namaste, and we love you. Bye-bye, peace, peace, thank you, thank you.