Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE11EP4 - independent Scientology: This is Why You're Angry at Scientology
Why are so many people upset with Scientology? In this eye-opening episode of Scientology Outside of the Church, Jonathan Burke and Quentin Stroud dive deep into the real reasons behind the outrage. It’s not the body of knowledge itself—it’s the personalities, alterations, and betrayals of trust that have sparked confusion, disillusionment, and even harm. From altered definitions in tech materials to major changes made without source references, the conversation sheds light on how departures from LRH’s original work have left many feeling duped or spiritually shortchanged.
Listeners will hear firsthand how the promise of spiritual freedom was replaced by verbal data, overrun processes, and massive financial demands—all at odds with LRH’s original intentions. The hosts share personal stories and historical insights about outpoints, wrong targets, and the critical role of reliable source. They unpack references from LRH himself, including policies on altering tech, the importance of the floating needle, and the felony-level wrongness of delivering incorrect tech or canceling HCOBs without policy backup.
If you’ve ever been angry at Scientology, this episode may completely shift your viewpoint. It’s not the subject that failed—it’s the corrupt delivery system that replaced the original with a hollow, PR-driven imitation. Learn how to reclaim your path with correct source, original materials, and real results. Explore what AOGP offers, including free ARC break sessions and half-price Bridge specials, and see what happens when you get Scientology the way it was truly meant to be delivered.
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Hi and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast. This is season 11, episode 4. This one is going to be entitled why You're Mad at Scientology. This should be one that people want to check out, to say the least, because there's a lot of bad press and things like that and upsets with Scientology, but I think it bears some scrutiny to look at. Is it the corporate church of Scientology or is it the subject of Scientology, or is it something else? So I'm here with Quentin Stroud, my trusty sidekick, and we're going to get going on this. So why are people mad at Scientology?
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I want to know too. You know, it's interesting because when you know I like to read, right, I like to read, I'm a very literate person, right? And for me, when I found Scientology again, like some 20, 23 years ago, when I found Scientology, I was just consuming books and it was really, really interesting. It was just an interesting subject in general and, um, what I read was all I had, right, what I read is what I knew, and it was obviously from the church. Um, and then, after things started kind of changing with the golden age of tech 2 and different things that had come out, uh, sometime later, um, I was getting kind of confused of what was wrong with tech once and what was wrong with the. You know, the way things used to be, so to speak, or the way things were presented before. And, of course, there was a whole justification on why we need to change this and why we need to change that and change this word to that word in this sense of that sentence, over and so on.
Speaker 2:But, um, it was just really interesting to me that because I was, I was so eager to consume the knowledge that is Scientology. I'm talking about the technology, not the institution of the church or the corporate side of things. But I was so interested in Scientology that it allowed me to take in as much as I could when I did. And so when you asked the question, well, why are people so mad at Scientology? I was like, yeah, what gets a person to that place? So you tell me what makes a person mad at a body of data.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing. Is it a body of data or you know, like LRH says, if you ever have any trouble with the technology, it's not the technology, it's the personalities involved. And then that comes down to and this is one of the senior policies is deliver what's promised. So how could you get upset if what was promised which is miracles for breakfast, how could you get upset if, if what was promised which is miracles for breakfast, how could you get upset with that? There's only one answer what's promised either in the materials and and I think that that's a big part of it is what's in the materials and what the, the, the corporate church is, is delivering are two different things.
Speaker 1:So they're not delivering what's promised, they're delivering something else, and I had somebody mentioned to me today who contacted me and is still in the church. They said you know, how is it that they're saying? You know, all this stuff was altered and we had to fix it and now it's brand new again and we're putting it out there. They said well, if that's the case, why was it that all the people beforehand in the decades before were getting all of these big, wonderful gains, that you had to go find something that was changed? I mean it's and this leads to one of the points for the podcast is that's a huge, huge out point.
Speaker 2:Right, right, because. Because. So either a what, what was promised wasn't actually delivered back then or what was promised is actually not being delivered now. So we have to then ask the question when LRH was alive, when LRH was running the show, when things were and people were getting all these amazing gains 50s, 60s, 70s, da-da-da, 60s, 70s, da-da-da when people were getting all these amazing wins for 25, 30 years, plus going free, clear, ot, da-da-da, all this stuff that was showing up with the technology what was being delivered back then? Either that wasn't actually what was being delivered, or what was being promised and wasn't being delivered, or what was being promised is not being delivered now Right.
Speaker 1:So which is which Right. So you've got, you know as far as out points, you've got. And this is from the data series again, we did a podcast on that a couple of podcasts ago. This is one of those things where you've got contrary facts dropped out, time, omitted data, facts dropped out, time, omitted data. And then in the data series he talks about the point of reliable source.
Speaker 1:So the reliable source okay, if you think David Miscavige is the reliable source for Scientology, then you've supplanted him for LRH. Now you're believing what he says, you're not believing what LRH says. And then you have this doppelganger that they're using in the technology. Like the way they've changed the definition of the second dynamic is the urge to survival through creativity. They actually changed it in the new ethics book, they changed it In the original ethics book. It's the urge to survival through sex and the rearing of children and family. I mean that's a huge difference. That's a huge difference. I mean you could almost say it sounds like population control or something like that. So delivering what's promised is if you're dealing with a dynamic and you're auditing a dynamic, you're auditing creativity, you're not auditing the second dynamic. And so the reliable source thing comes in is you're looking at a book and you think that book is what the accurate information is and it's not a reliable source because Miscavige and company have gone in and changed it. So when they've gone in and changed it, now you can't deliver what's promised because you're auditing something that is not what the accurate terminology definition is and correct definitions are everything in order to get the desired results in auditing and or study.
Speaker 1:So you could see how people could get upset with something. When they're dealing with one thing, that isn't what's supposed to be handled. They're dealing with another. Now you know, creativity can be audited as well, but the thing is, if you're not delivering what's promised because things are changed, lrh says you know, only 10% of your income should be put towards your bridge back in the 70s, and now they're wanting you to put 10 times what your income is on credit cards in order to pay for services. And then they're giving you auditing sessions where the FN has to swing three times and you get overrun and then you have to pay more money for that particular action to get repaired on it because you're overrun. So are you delivering what's promised? No, you're not. You're getting something else, and this is where people get upset or they have ARC breaks, because they're getting the picture of one thing and they're being told one thing, but they're actually getting something else. It's a false bill of goods, that's why people are upset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting because I used to get into these comp cycles with my reg my reg at the time, with my reg, my reg at the time. I used to get into these comp cycles because I would have something being told to me, I would be enlightened on a certain matter, and then I would say, wow, that sounds really interesting. I want to know more about that. Where'd you get that reference from? I would get the reference, of course, and then I would go up to the qualification library, like on the seventh floor or sixth floor, and I would look it up and I would read the entire policy. I would read the entire thing. I would literally sit there in the library and read it.
Speaker 2:Most people don't do that, right? Most people just take what was said at face value, verbal data. And there you go, verbal data which LRA speaks against, right? Most people would take what they say at face value and then let that kind of be what it is. But I think that when this starts to happen, it's easy for things to get kind of discombobulated and then what was promised really gets lost in what is hoped for, right, what is?
Speaker 1:hoped for.
Speaker 2:So then you start throwing money at what's hoped for right and that and that was that was the point that I was but that's.
Speaker 1:That was the point that I was trying to make is uh, is you're being sold a bill of goods? That is something else, because you're getting verbal data, or you're getting altered data which viol, violates reliable source. You should always go to the materials and see what they say. You shouldn't watch some glitzy TV program or some glitzy event or whatever. They're literally saying. These are the things. This is what's happening. This is what we found out. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Speaker 1:Lrh read all of this stuff. It was all proofread by him in the things. This is what's happening. This is what we found out. Da, da, da, da da. Lrh read all of this stuff. It was all proofread by him. In the end and he would go okay, yeah, this is right, and they're saying that the transcriptionist did this and all this jazz, because they can't have the copyrights on the stuff anymore. They don't have the copyrights on the stuff. They don't have anything to sell. They don't have anything to sell. So you're, you're altering over and over and over and over again. It's like a game of telephone you know used to play as kids. By the time it gets to the other end, it's something completely different. This is why you're not getting people getting the delivery of what it is that's promised because they're being told one thing I I had. I had somebody say to me back in the 90s they said, well, I'm, I've done the l's, I can't go pts, I'm gonna, let me use your expression.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna use your expression child yeah I just, I just thought you at the time. I was like how is that? And in delivering the L's, there isn't one goddamn thing, one goddamn thing in any of the materials that says you can't go PTS after getting the L's rundowns.
Speaker 2:What does one have to do with the other? I don't get where they even came from.
Speaker 1:What does one have to do with the other? I don't get where they even came from. Well, right, but that's my point. That's my point. Is this person who is now deceased from cancer? From cancer, jeez? Let that sink in a minute, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's terrible. This person said you know, how can this happen? I can't go PTS. I've done my L's there. We go Wrong source, incorrect, altered information that was told by a registrar or somebody else, that isn't in any of the materials.
Speaker 1:Because because they can't see the materials of the L's rundowns. Now that's you know. Allard says there's no such thing as a hidden data line. But see, the thing is it's not a hidden data line if you're a class eight, class nine, and then you get trained to class 10, 11, and 12, which is L10, 11, and 12. That's what those levels are for, so they're not privy to it. So they're stuck in a situation where they can't have that information and so they have to believe what is being told to them as truth because they trust these people.
Speaker 1:But I mean, that's the worst case scenario I could possibly think of is that you know, lrh says the worst kind of wrong is dead wrong, and I'm not saying anything against the L's, I'm just saying wrong information. She didn't get delivered what was promised. She got something else Now, promising that you won't go PTS after you get the L's. That's not delivering what's promised. You can't tell somebody this is going to do that when it won't do that. That's the worst. Not delivering what's promised scenario I can possibly think of.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's mind-blowing right you know all you need to get some more correction. You know you need to buy more intensives, because this, this shouldn't be happening, and then the person ends up dead.
Speaker 2:Oh, geez, yeah, no, what LRH says in the Sanjog OutTech the reference on OutTech, I think it was, looks like 27 November 1967. 22nd of November 1967. 22nd of November 1967. He says, if any, at any time, a supervisor or other person in an aura gives you interpretations of HCOBs, policy letters, or tells you that's old, read it but disregard it. That's just background data, things of that sort. Or gives you a chit for following HCOBs or tapes, or alters tag on you or personally cancels HCLBs or policy letters without being able to show you an HCLB or policy letter that cancels it. So, in other words, if there's something that's changed, there's a policy letter that LRH wrote that says I'm changing this right, this is to be changed right. If they personally cannot show you that is, he calls it a felony. He calls it a felony.
Speaker 2:It goes on to say that all of dynamics of Scientology works. Some of it works faster. The only real error auditors made over the years was to fail to stop a process the moment they saw a floating needle. Moment they saw a floating needle. Isn't that interesting? You just said that now the policy is it has to float three times back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, three swings.
Speaker 2:No, no, no. It says the only time an auditor has failed was when or error auditors that make was when they failed to stop a process the moment they saw a floating needle. That's when the auditor makes a mistake, okay. He then goes on to talk about this felony that happens when they start to change these policies and he goes on to say here it says any supervisor or executive who interprets, alters or cancels tech is liable to the assignment of the condition of enemy. All the data is in HCOBs or policy letters or on tape. That's it.
Speaker 1:In their original form, in their original form Correct, without alterations.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So there you have it. I mean, you know, one of the things that the church started doing is it used to be used to have HCOBs that would show where improvements were made to it, or something like that. That LRH added something, that type of a thing later on down the road, because he did do that and you know that's his prerogative. But what they've done is is that now, when they make alterations to it, they take out all of the data trail of what it originally said and changes are in this font or this script, and now there isn't anything. You just don't know that it's changed. So then that enters into the hardest thing to spot as a missingness. You don't know what the original version said or what the additions were, you just make them and now you're believing it as the gospel. It'd be like going in and changing the Bible and not saying we added this or we deleted that, or you know that type of a thing.
Speaker 1:And so again, that's not delivering what's promised. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:And so it's interesting because the reason why we at AOGP make all this stuff available to you online, make it available to you in the lectures and things of that nature, all these things are available to you because, number one, this is LRH tech right and no religious technology center organization has the copyright on that Right. And so this is, this is available to humanity Right. And he says that one of the failures to get the results on a PC is that you're not studying your HCOBs and books and tapes, not applying what you studied, following advice, somebody advising you contrary to what you found on HCOBs and tapes, and failure to obtain HCOBs, books and tapes needed. That's where you do not get the results as a PC. And so, getting this data for yourself, going into the college, logging in, doing your course, reading the materials, getting clearing the words in the materials this is vitally important for you getting the gains and the wins that are promised to you by LRH, by the subject of Scientology, that you can get these amazing wins Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, okay, and you get these things that's promised to you when you do the work, when you study, when you read and clear your words, when you do this stuff and then you sit down and you say and you see, when the needle floats First time, you see it.
Speaker 2:Okay, your needle's floating, whoa, and you feel it and you know it. Right, this is good stuff, but you got to make sure you get it in as a being right, you got to make sure you get it in. You can't put that in somebody else's hand. I'm telling you what I know Right, you can't put that in somebody else's hands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, he says, in the steps to keeping Scientology working, one of them is having the correct technology. This is where people get upset with Scientology. It's not just they're having the correct technology themselves, it's that the organization and the people that are putting trust in within that organization, who they themselves may not know that the organization changed those materials. Okay, so let's make it the right target, whether it's David Miscavige himself or somebody else. Okay, I mean, you know that kind of goes beyond scope. But the thing is is it's been changed. So, right there, you don't have the correct technology and you wouldn't know it because you're in the corporate church and you just think, well, I can trust these guys. Look how fancy these buildings are. That's the thing I mean.
Speaker 1:Think about that for a second to our listeners. Think about that Just because they have all this glitzy stuff and everything like that, and these pretty magazines and edifices and all this stuff, you think, well, they must have the right technology. That's not right. But the thing is is you have to find out what the correct technology is. You can't just take it at face value, because you, I mean you look into who you bank with before you bank with them. You look into a broker before you. You hook up with a broker to to go do trading. You look into a car dealership to see if it's reputable, you know that type of a thing. And then you get into ratings and then ratings are based off of people's satisfaction or dissatisfaction with something. Okay. So if the ratings are bad and they have dissatisfaction, what's happening there? They didn't get what was. Something's not being delivered right?
Speaker 2:yep, just like that, yep well, I like what you said too right.
Speaker 2:I like what you said about two really finding the like where's the wrong target? Like what's something, something's amiss here. Uh lrh says in the data series uh 20 on 26 November 1970, he says that wrong source, so there's wrong target, and then there's wrong source. He said wrong source is the other side of the coin of wrong target.
Speaker 2:Information taken from wrong source, orders taken from the wrong source, gifts or material taken from wrong source all add up to eventual confusion and possible trouble. So it's like at some point if you're taking information, gifts or promises, material orders, if you're taking that from wrong source somewhere, you're going to get a confusion or you get into trouble right, or both, it says and trouble right, so you're going to get into trouble. And so if we're not careful in really making sure we have right source, then and this is up and I'm putting the onus on each of us as responsible beings, to make sure we do our due diligence Make sure you dig deep, make sure you make sure that when you're talking to an auditor, when you're talking to somebody, and they give you this data, whatever this information is, make sure you get the reference on that Make sure you know exactly where this is coming from.
Speaker 1:Right, do your due diligence. And that's why we exist is because we have the original materials. All of the original printings of the books and everything are on our courses online in the collegeofindependentscientologycom the bulletins, the lectures, the transcripts, all of this stuff. You don't even know that it exists unless you go on eBay and you take one page next to the other, first printing to 20th printing of Dianetics, and you go wait a minute, there's a paragraph missing. I mean it's hard. It's hard to find, and that's what they bank on in the corporate church is you never know? And so you've got wrong source. They are now the source instead of lrh, since he's not here anymore for almost 40 years, and and so now you're you're targeting the subject of scientology incorrectly, as it not being what it was that you were promised. That's a wrong target.
Speaker 2:That's so good. There are those people who are have their own you know, shows and YouTube videos and conversations, books and all that stuff and you're targeting the wrong. You're choosing the wrong target. You're selecting the wrong target because the the, the tech he said it, dynamics and Scientology works. Some of it works faster dynamics and Scientology works, some of it works faster Dianetics and Scientology works. So you're targeting something that actually does work, but it's the wrong target. It makes sense to make sure you know what you're doing as you're going along this track. Right, and when you get a quote off the Internet or when you get something, don't just take that at face value. Do your research, even on this podcast. If you hear me give a reference, because I often I love reading references If you hear me give a reference or Jonathan, give a reference and we'll tell you where it's coming from. Go and read that reference. Don't just be like, well, they said, pastor said, pastor said you know, yeah, and that's what Pastor said we need to do.
Speaker 1:Right, that's what's happening. And it's so easy to do because you've got this guy standing on a stage with this fancy background, all this fancy music and all these fancy digital images and and all this stuff. And it's the same thing that they do in the news, in the news media, on TV and commercials, just just because you know there's no truth in advertising and nobody does their due diligence and doesn't know any better. And you have to dig deeper and do a deep dive on things to find out what's real and what's not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this is a really, really good just moment to say everything that I've heard, everything that I've taken at face value, everything that I've ingested, and you know that's made me look at Scientology in a way that, like you know, angry. You know the subject of the conversation is why are you angry at Scientology? Like talk about the subject, why are you angry at Scientology? Why are you angry at a body of data? And the only reason why I want to be angry at it is because what was promised isn't being delivered, and so people come out of these spaces and places where it's not being delivered and they find somewhere like ALGP that delivers these successes, deliver these wins. Look at the website, look at the scores of testimonials and things that are talking about like these are real wins we publish them often wins that people are having right, and that doesn't mean that stuff doesn't go. You know wrong and things don't get, you know, messed up and people don't have problems and stuff like that. Life is life, right, life be lifin'. But when you can sit down and you can get the data for yourself and we overtly make it available, right, you get the data for yourself and then say that's something I want to experience. That's something I want to know about.
Speaker 2:I logged in and I did my classes, I did my courses, and I want more of that. I want to experience that. That's what Scientology is supposed to feel like. It's supposed to feel like wow, isn't that wonderful? Wouldn't that be wonderful for me to feel that way, to have those abilities rekindled, rehabilitated in myself as a being. It's all in you, dorothy. You've had the power all along, you know, and now it's time for us to unlock that, and so I love this conversation. I'm glad that we got to the bottom of why people might be mad at Scientology.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not Scientology the subject, it's the corporation itself. Because, like he says and I can't give you the name of this reference because it doesn't exist in any of the OEC volumes anymore I saw it back in 1989, and it was a single policy letter before the corporate church deleted it from the organization executive course. That said if you have ever had any trouble with the technology, it's not the technology, it's the personalities involved.
Speaker 1:That's what it comes down to, and the personalities involved are those personalities who have altered the technology and made themselves and supplanted themselves as the source, the correct source, instead of LRH as the correct source. That's it, yeah, end of story, and that's something that you have to take a look at. It doesn't go any further than that. It's because you've got to have the correct source, you've got to have the right materials. Same thing, but said in a different way, and not a personality involved, and that's what it's become the chairman of the board of the church of Scientology and all this stuff. That's it, right, that's it. So you need to go back and you need to find the original stuff.
Speaker 1:We've got it on our website. You can pull it down, you can look at it, you can do your research, you can ask us for references and take a look at this stuff, but it's not the subject. The subject really works Miracles for breakfast, miracles as usual, and if you're not getting that, it's because something has been altered. He says what you do, you do this, you get that result. They don't. That's why the mess, because it's a public relations nightmare, because they can't do that. They can't duplicate the material well enough anymore, because it's been changed so much that it's something else and people mistake the church for the subject, and the subject is completely different.
Speaker 1:Different yeah that's so good. So we hope you've enjoyed this podcast. It's a lot to take in in a short period of time, but if you listen to it and you kind of do some demos with it and you go, oh okay, okay, I see I could see how this could be, we guarantee you you'll see what we're talking about on this, and you shouldn't be mad at the subject of Scientology If you didn't get from it what you thought you would get. Where did you get the information that you thought you would get those results? Did you get it from a bulletin, a lecture, a transcript, a book, something like that? Or did you get it from somebody else? And why are they giving you verbal data about it? And then you need to find where the correct source is and what you're really supposed to get. Or are you even supposed to get that? And it was something that was canceled, like the survival rundown, and LRH never wrote it, but they're still delivering it to this very moment that we're doing this podcast.
Speaker 1:Interesting, isn't it? Well, thanks for listening everybody. We hope you enjoyed this. It's a real bean burner, but you need to take in consideration. If you've ever been in Scientology, don't wrong. Target the subject, look at the personalities involved and get the correct information, and we can give that to you and you don't have to give up. And the things that you think you should have gotten from Scientology may not be so, but we can tell you what they really are and we can clean up your ARC breaks with a free ARC break session using a Theta meter, remotely from the comfort of your own home. You can do our courses on the collegeofindependentscientologycom and we also have a half price bridge special going on right now where you can get up the bridge for half of our price half, not the churches, we're looking at a fraction from what the church charges. So get up the bridge today, get the wins you thought you should have gotten and we'll get you in session and we'll make you OT Namaste and we love you. Bye-bye.
Speaker 2:Peace.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you.