Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE11EP19 - Independent Scientology: Broken on the Bridge
What happens when Scientology auditing goes wrong? In this revealing conversation, we pull back the curtain on the technical failures that can leave spiritual seekers "broken on the bridge" to higher states.
We distinguish between the "independent field" (which follows standard tech) and the "free zone" (which tends to develop its own processes). Through startling examples, they explain how overrun cases develop when auditors continue processes long past their completion point. One elderly woman endured 14-hour sessions daily when standard protocol recommends short sessions - a misapplication that left her physically ill and spiritually devastated.
The podcast reveals how one auditor mistook floating needles (indicating positive release) for rock slams (indicating evil purposes), resulting in numerous Sea Org members being wrongly assigned to rehabilitation projects when they were actually doing well. Such incorrect indications create significant case upset requiring specialized repair.
Perhaps most intriguing is the discussion of ethics as a fundamental barrier to case progress. Many "stalled or no case gain" situations stem from practitioners being unwilling to confront their own ethical breaches or Potential Trouble Source conditions. Without addressing these ethical factors, technical processes simply cannot produce spiritual advancement.
The hosts also warn against premature declaration of states, excessive sec-checking, and the dangerous practice of searching for confidential upper-level materials online. Their message emphasizes that Scientology works when approached gradually and methodically, following the exact procedures developed through decades of research.
If you've experienced difficulties on your spiritual journey - whether in the Church, the independent field, or through self-auditing - this episode offers hope through proper technical understanding. The hosts extend a heartfelt invitation to reach out for assistance in repairing your case and finding your way forward on the Bridge.
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Hi everybody, and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast. This is Season 11, episode 19,. And this one is going to be entitled Broken on the Bridge, and we're not going to give anything away on that, we'll just get started on it. I'm here with Quentin Stroud and arthur mudakis, who is, uh, been away for a while and is now in malaysia with quentin. How are you guys?
Speaker 2:man, I'm fantastic. Oh good, doing very well good I'm doing well as well.
Speaker 1:So, getting used to this warmer weather, yeah, yeah, from from the australian winter, I'm sure it's uh, yeah, yeah, very, very nice to be much warmer than it is here in south africa currently in the southern hemisphere. So we're gonna. It's much nicer, yeah, I bet we're gonna get started here and we're gonna talk about, uh, people in the independent field slash free zone. I. I'm using free zone because it's it's a little bit different to me as a higher class auditor class 8, class 9. That free zone tends to connotate to me people who have taken standard tech and tend to deviate from it and roll their own processes and are a little bit more loosey-goosey than independent Scientologists. That's just my take on it.
Speaker 1:I don't know how you guys feel, but that's been my observation and there are an awful lot of people who come to AOGP from the church, from the free zone, from the internet, from having bought a meter and played around with it and jumped into their own case, and it's just the stuff we see and how we fix it. That's what this is going to be about. So being broken on the bridge tends to more often than not be people are bypass cases. They've been introduced to the upper levels. They've been introduced to higher caliber processes or rundowns without being set up for it properly on a gradient, and boy, some of the things we've seen. So we're going to kind of do this as sort of a Q and a back and forth with Quentin and Arthur and everything like that. So, cause, there are things I just take for granted as a, as a class eight, class nine, auditor and CS. So shoot forth your volley, good sirs.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, I think that what comes up for me the most is especially coming from where I came from over the years of being a Scientologist is kind of like overrun cases and cases that it's like it's going over too much. Is that a thing? And how does that manifest and what's the? What would we do as an ALGP to kind of address that?
Speaker 1:Well, what typically overrun is where and the overrun cases. Overrun means that a person has gotten an auditing process or processes or rundown or grade or OT grade and they've been overrun on it. I have seen people who were audited on NED for ot's, new ot5 uh, there was a lady in missouri that I audited for 223 hours who was in her 80s at the time and this is in 2014 and the the church used her and her husband as an ATM and you're supposed to audit New Era Dynamics for OTs in short sessions Maybe two or three in short sessions over a period of, let's say, an eight or ten hour day. They were taking her in session for 14 hours a day and she was in her 70s for 14 hours a day. And she was in her 70s because they charged OT-level rates for the auditing and she was so overrun on the level that she developed a horrible, horrible cough and was just miserable as a Phaeton and I had to go back through and clean all of that stuff up from a PTS standpoint and that's how overrun you can get where you should have gotten. Well, let's say you should have gotten an hour and a half of auditing over the course of two or three sessions in a day, 14 hours, that's how bad it can get in a sense like that. And then you go to the survival rundown.
Speaker 1:The survival rundown wasn't written by LRH and we've talked about this a few times in different podcasts. The survival rundown was something that was developed by somebody else. Lrh canceled it in 1978. David Miscavige and company resurrected it, made some more changes to it and busted everybody down from OT8 all the way down to where it's at at the bottom of the bridge and changed the objectives to the survival rundown and run objectives on it. I recently had a new PC tell me that they told him he would be on the objectives for a year. A new PC told me that they told him he would be on the objectives for a year. A year, yes, and typically the objectives take somewhere between one to three intensives, depending on your drug history and the state of your case.
Speaker 1:Per the 1981 grade chart, it says it's CS adjudicated, but it's adjudicated as to what is the person in present time, how does their environment respond to them, how they respond to their environment, that type of thing. Can they start, change, stop? Are they in present time, that type of a thing? So two, three intenses, maybe 36, 40 hours, hops, averages and intensive and a half, two intenses.
Speaker 1:And they're running this on people and overrunning it so much that people are dying dying from the overrun, because the objectives really come in with a crunch for people, because the objectives really come in with a crunch for people and it sends the body into apathy and they pull in sicknesses and go PTS to the overrun. That's how bad that can get. And what do you do about it? Well, you have to indicate to the person right off the bat when you're doing an interview with them or they want to get auditing no, they don't feel right, they're overrun on this. I'd like to indicate you were overrun because you can see it on the meter, on the theta meter. In a remote auditing session, say, I'd like to indicate you were overrun on the objectives and they're like yeah, that feels right.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's something you have to do an objectives repair list on. So in doing so, what you're doing is you're trying to spot where the person actually went, release on an overrun. So release is, you know, they've basically departed from that part of the aberration of the case, whether it's objectives or whether it's grade zero or grade one or grade two or grade three, grade four, and you're trying to rehab where it was that they had that win, where they went released from that particular topic. But on the objectives, it keys out, it keys in, it keys out, it keys in, it keys out, it keys in. On and on and on for a year or more. Can you imagine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a PC in Washington DC and on the objectives she would just go boom, she would just crash. And it would be something as simple as, like you know, just be there, you know, or you know, touch that wall or you know whatever, and she would just crash and it would take her like maybe 20, 30 minutes to even come to you know. Right, and I'm not saying this to scare anybody, but I'm saying that if a person has been overrun on a process, it's a very real phenomena and that can be repaired. But it has to be done. It has to be spotted, number one indicated and then repaired.
Speaker 1:So gosh, yeah, yeah, I mean you have to say something's not right, I don't feel right, things are going wrong. If you've gotten auditing and things are going wrong if it's in the church, if it's in the independent field, if it's in the free zone and you're not doing well, then you need to get some repair. A life repair is the general term for it, but you need to get a case repair so you're broken on the bridge. Now you know there are lots of ways to overrun, but overrun means something keyed out and then it keyed in and then it keyed out again and you're going on and on. So that has to be found and indicated, and it's very common with auditors who don't know their craft well enough. Or, as LRH says, the only two ways an auditor can go wrong is poor metering or poor TRs. Their communication skills are out. Now that brings us to false reads. How bad can false reads get? Well, they can get pretty bad. The best story I have is how superpower actually came about, and this is in the Sea Org, right under LRH's nose. They did an en masse sort of looking for people who had evil purposes, sort of looking for people who had evil purposes. And the guy, the auditor that was doing this for these COIG members, was mistaking an FN, for a rock slam and a floating needle is when a person is keyed out, a process is done, they're feeling good about something, and he was mistaking that for a rock slam, and a rock slam is this jagged slashing of the needle back and forth and everything perelerates. And in the book, yeah, e-meter essentials. They are completely different. It's sort of the difference between a sine wave and a sawtooth wave. You just you know if you saw it on an oscilloscope, oscilloscope. So what happened is is all of these people got a wrong indication and then were busted down and put into the rehabilitation project for us because practically one for one, these people were doing well and they were told you've got an evil purpose. You're going to go run around a tree for 12 hours, you're going to go painting buildings or you're going to. You know this sort of thing. So false reads can be that's one form of false read, whereas you have an auditor that doesn't know his stuff and is mistrained and has misunderstood.
Speaker 1:False reads can also be wrong indications, and a wrong indication is no bueno, because if you tell a person one thing and it means another chances are. Now you've given them what's called an out list. And an out list is sort of like what's your favorite color, because a listing question is a what, who or why question per L or H, and you ask a person what's your favorite color? The question is reading, it has to per the laws of listing and nulling and you tell them it's pink and their actual real color is teal. So now you've given them a wrong indication and that stirs up a whole hornet's nest. And now you've got a really big problem because they're not getting the right indication because of a false read. Now another example and then you have to handle that and find the right item and indicate you know what the wrong item is and all that stuff, not necessarily in that order, but that's what happens.
Speaker 1:The person feels good when they're given the correct indication from a false read or a misunderstood read, whereas a false read could be. You could ask a person hey, has there been any false reads on your case? And if it reads, you find out what they are. You indicate to them on that particular thing, it's handled, and you say, okay, I'd like to indicate that and they feel better about it. It's as simple as that. But there are lots and lots and lots of false reads because auditors aren't trained properly. Any questions, any comments, any originations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I guess my question is is that, if so, let's say, if a person has had auditing, wherever it's occurred, and they've been overrun or they've hit a false or somebody improperly read them a false read with them, how would they know it? Like, like, like in their body and their mind and their feeling and their experience, what occurs that that person says, oh my god, that's me, like I need to talk to somebody.
Speaker 1:well, I mean, you know, a false read is a wrong indication. A thetan knows and it's like somebody walks up to you and goes you don't know them and they just look at you and go you're a jerk, that's a wrong indication. It's the same thing, except it's in a session with an auditor that you trust, so it might be worse. And what LRA says is if you do this enough with a preclear, they start to distrust the meter and they start to distrust the auditor and they start to distrust the tech.
Speaker 1:Now you have a real problem because you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. So again, the only problems that really can occur in an auditing session are bad metering and bad TRs or communication skills with the auditor. And so a good auditor knows, looking at the PC indicators, are they good indicators? Are they bad indicators? Are they very good indicators? But sometimes people trust auditors so much that they don't know that anything's happened. And then things start to go wonky in life and they don't feel quite right about that. And then things start to go wonky in life and they don't feel quite right about that session. And when these things build up again, like LRH says, bypass charge is the sum of the case. So bypass charge is something that's been re-stimulated but not handled or not yet handled. So you develop bypass charge when the auditor says you know you're a jerk, basically through telling them about false reads, so yeah, that's, that's another problem. Now that brings us to another type of falsity, which is prematurely or declared grades or the state of clear right.
Speaker 2:I've had people false premature, declare so falsely premature, or declaring somebody like you got that grade or you're clear, like congratulations, like wait what?
Speaker 1:right, exactly, and and it can get so bad that somebody is, is, is told that they're they're, uh, a past life clear or they're a natural clear or something like that, because they don't want to do the lower end of the end of the bridge and they don't believe in it or whatever which is out tech. And so the person is put on the upper levels and falls on their head and can't do it because the, the, the grade chart, the, the series of levels that you do in independent Scientology auditing, are very, very small, micro steps, one process at a time, to allow that person. You can't climb, you can't jump from the bottom of the stairs to the top of the stairs and get to the second floor. That's why there are stairs. So when this happens, the person tries to jump and then falls back to the ground because they can't make it and grab onto the second floor. That's an out gradient.
Speaker 1:Everything operates off of gradients. It's an axiom in dynamics and Scientology operates off of gradients. It's an axiom in Dianetics and Scientology. So when somebody we're going to say in this sense, prematurely is declared on a grade or clear, they won't make it because it's not real to them. We talked about this in the last podcast. Their awareness is not there yet because we haven't peeled the onion enough. We haven't gotten to the center of the lollipop to get the caramel center Okay. So they might chip a tooth or whatever, and it's going to be very uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Painful yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very painful. So, and the other thing is is you can tell people, hey, you've done this, I think you've done this, and then they go no, I haven't. They don't feel that they're there yet Right. So that's why you have to make sure that you exhaust all of these areas of charge on a case at a particular level and check every question, check every flow. Flows are others to you, you to others, others to others, you to yourself. And then, once you've done that, you've exhausted that tiny little question that LRH developed at some point in his researches on that subject. And then you move on to the next and you systematically do this to make sure that you've left no stone unturned. And if you have, the person isn't going to have that release, that ability, they aren't going to be able to handle their problems or help, like we had in the success story in the podcast last week from MX. And so when that happens, you're giving the PC a lose, a loss, and this is what happens.
Speaker 1:Remember the podcast we did where we were talking about where people didn't get what was promised. This is that. This is that, because they were cut short or they didn't get it at all in the independent field or free zone or something like that, or they messed around with their case and said I don't need to do all of that, I'm just going to jump right on the OT levels and I'm going to do it myself. Good luck, good luck. And we see that all the time, all the time, because people want to cut corners or I don't have the money for this, it's like, well, you need to start out on a gradient because otherwise you're going to end up in the soup. Now that brings us to miswithholds. Over it's gone wrong. And this is a biggie, biggie in the church, where people are over, ridiculously over, sect. Checked, asked for over it's told they have missed withholds. Uh, and you know there is such a thing as a a wrongly assigned it's it's, it's, it's a.
Speaker 1:There's no withhold there so that's a that works as a wrong indication as well and it can make a person feel really, really bad. Uh, and if you're you're over sex checked it it. It reduces your havingness because overts and withholds are having this. There is something that the phaeton aberratively has per lrh and when you get rid of these things and you don't run having this which happens the person kind of feels like a sweater that's been left in the dryer and was extra large and by the time that the dryer was done it wouldn't fit their infant. It shrinks down. So the person is interiorized to you know, it's a miswithhold of nothing. I didn't do anything but they're telling me I did.
Speaker 1:I've had it happen to myself and this can cause a lot of problems for the person because they're looking around for something that isn't there. They're being told they did something that they didn't do and they're getting sec, check after sec, check after sec check. Now, the opposite side of that, what we see all the time in the field is people tend to organizations and field auditors and stuff tend to want to overlook overts and withholds and kind of avoid that area because they themselves were mishandled on it. So it becomes sort of a blank spot and overts and withholds have their value in getting cleaned up. It restores a person's ability to reach and when you overrun somebody on it or you misindicate that they need to do something. And when I say overrun, you're getting sec check after sec check after sec check.
Speaker 1:Or you keep drilling you on it. It's not good and it can cause a lot of problems for the person and make them leave because they're being wrongfully accused. The church does this a lot. Now the next one too many repair lists, not enough actual auditing. This is where LRH on the class eight course in 1968 talks about you don't want to over repair a case, scientology works so fast. He talks about the speed, the velocity of audit and auditing. Auditing velocity is fast.
Speaker 1:You know this Arthur, arthur witness did on on his life repair and it wasn't a lot of, it was just word clearing, you know. I mean and the gains that can be had from that. When the person has their win, let them have their win, come back the next day and you can continue. And if their needle's still floating and they feel like they're on cloud nine, okay, see in a couple days. But you don't have to over repair somebody. And this is another thing you see in the church a lot and in the independent field is this repair list after repair list type of a thing. Doesn't, doesn't need to be that way, because that's a form of overrun. You're cleaning the clean. Can we just get on with the auditing? Can we just get up the bridge, and that's another thing that causes a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2:Let me, do me, let me do me. Let me get through where I need to get through. And if there's a problem, we know how to fix it, we know how to repair the issue, but don't just keep trying to clean and clean.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and it works so fast it doesn't take much. So you know a lot of repair lists are, you know, due to a big win? Or if there's no big win, finish the list. But that doesn't mean you have to do three more lists on different subjects, it just depends. You don't do a repair list on something unless you've gotten a read that indicates in an interview beforehand on the meter that says okay, this is something we need to handle. You don't just do lists willy-nilly to see what pops up. You have to have some suspicion based off of charts that you've seen in an interview.
Speaker 1:Now the next one stalled or no case gain labels Typically why a person is stalled or isn't getting any case gain. There's one major reason isn't getting any case gain? There's one major reason and we talked about this the other day Ethics, tech and admin. A lot of stalled or no case gain cases are again addressed on the class eight course because you have somebody who isn't making any motion, isn't getting anywhere. But the thing is, is they're stalled or no case gain cases because they're constantly out ethics and they don't see it, or they don't want to get it in, or they don't see anything wrong with cheating on their wife or they're PTS and they can't handle the person and they refuse to do anything about it. They will not get any case gain. They will be parked on the bridge. You see this a lot in the field because of this unwillingness to handle ethics.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we see it even in the podcast too, because as soon as we talk about ethics, there's this roof, just a collapse of listeners, a collapse of people wanting to go through that conversation, and I just think that it's such an unfortunate situation because if you really look at it, ethics, tech and understanding what it really can do for you as a being, is really really phenomenal stuff. I really enjoy diving into it a little bit more. Actually that when you really understand what happens to you, when you start racking up these overs and withholds and all this stuff that starts like crushing you down, you get that free. You know it's a really, really salvific kind of experience, yeah, and a case will stall or they will get no case game because they're not cleaning up their ethics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it takes confront. It takes a level of responsibility and if a person doesn't have a level of responsibility and they're not willing to confront, you know that they're probably most likely, if not 100%, a bypass case Okay, some earlier step has been omitted. A bypass case Okay, some earlier step has been omitted Grade two, which handles over its own, withholds education on it before that, to really understand this stuff. We see this a lot with people where the gradient has been missed and so they're not willing to look at things because, well, you know, responsibility is tough to confront, but without it you can't get up the bridge. You can't get up the bridge.
Speaker 1:Now that brings us to mental health mislabels like psychotic breaks and things like that. That's not something we see a lot in the independent field. You know, misauditing can cause those types of things for a person and you know, one of the worst ones was with the church and the Lisa McPherson case on L11. And they completely mishandled this girl and she died. It was a big thing in the press. She went out into the street, was in a car accident, took all of her clothes off in public at the intersection and all of this and they took her away and put her in the basement of the Fort Harrison Hotel, because what had happened is and what we talked about earlier really was the cause the psychotic break was that caused the psychotic break was that she had outlists and she was misprogrammed, mis-case supervised, mis-audited.
Speaker 1:That's how bad it can get and boy it takes a lot to do that. But that was an extremely unfortunate and sad example and the worst case I've ever seen. Example and the worst case I've ever seen. And um pierre etha, the, the, the, no longer with us with us. Class 12, from new market, canada, outside of toronto, has some wonderful information on how bad that got, because he was there at the time audited. He was not, he was not her auditor, but very much knew what had happened and why she was mishandled. But again, it came down to bad metering and bad TRs, just like Ellarate says, and these case supervisors that were programming this and there was a lot of misintervention and things like that by Miscavige on this whole thing that led to this. And he has no business dealing with anything having to do with auditing.
Speaker 2:That's another podcast well, when I, when I, when I looked at it from a mental health mystic label kind of space, I was also talking about people who in the wild world, like out in the real world, kind of getting these labels of that they have mental health issues.
Speaker 2:Sure, like diagnosis I'm talking about like diagnosed stuff like that right and yet it could be something different, or yet it could be, you know, a different way of handling. So what happens, and especially in the independent figure, when we have somebody that might come to us that might be a previous psych case, like they might have had psychotic drugs and stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, it depends on how much damage the drugs have done. It depends on the wrong indications that have been given them, which, one for one, what you get from that walk of supposed mental health medicine. They've been given wrong indications, or, you know, bipolar. Bipolar has everything to do with valences and they don't know how to handle that sort of a thing, or borderline personality disorder. It's a difficult thing to handle, I will freely admit it, because there is so much charge that's built up there by these wrong indications. And then you have the drugs on top of them.
Speaker 2:On top of it, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the drugs now are different than the drugs were in the 90s. The drugs that they were using in the 90s to handle this stuff caused these MAOI inhibitors caused the meter to read improperly on the PC. They don't use those anymore, thank God. They've gone to worse things that screw up the case even more. And if somebody has had a lot of these things, we may not be able to handle some of those worse cases because the brain itself is not functioning the way that it should. And then you have the restimulation of these drugs on the person's case which are pretty strong, and it's a lot to work out. So it's a case by case situation. We try to help people as much as we can but unfortunately we do get people who are unsalvageable because of this stuff in the worst-case scenarios.
Speaker 1:So you know long walks, locationals, Like LRH says, some of the basic case supervision technology is baby steps, light touch on this sort of a thing. Get them a purif, get it out of their system, give them Scientology drug rundown. But you're fighting an upstream battle because you're dealing with valence issues and you've got to get the drugs out of their system at the same time, and boy, it can be a mess. So that's something that we have to deal with once in a while and you really have to qualify people and find out where they've been, what they've done that type of a thing, because to a greater or lesser degree, they are extremely broken on the bridge from wrong indications. Next, lost of trust in the auditor.
Speaker 2:That's a biggie. Yeah, so I think we recently, recently had that situation where it's like somebody just had to, like they kept wanting to reassure, like get reassurance that my, my information will be confidential, or like like how somehow their trust was violated by their previous auditor at the church, yeah, I've heard stories from multiple pre-clears of auditors taking information from people's folders and turning it over to the police in the free zone, not the independent field.
Speaker 1:The church just says you got to go baby Now because they don't want to touch them. They're a hot potato and that's not what LRH intended. You're supposed to help that person, so help becomes betrayal. That's not good and that violates the auditor's code. But this is what the Church does.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've had one PC who was kicked off of the flag land days because he took Tylenol. This was just a couple years ago. Because he took Tylenol. Okay, what, and, and, and, and, and. People treated him like a pariah because he took a Tylenol. Are you kidding me? What? When? What's next? You had a cup of coffee. If that's the case, all Scientologists should be kicked off the flag land base because Scientologists drink coffee. You know 24-7, 365. I mean, come on Right.
Speaker 1:So you know that's not just loss of trust in the auditor, it's loss of trust in the tech, which takes us back to the podcast where we were talking about not delivering what's promised. And it's not just not delivering what's promised, and it's not just not delivering what's promised, it's not following the tech the way that LRH intended it to do, because you won't give a person a loss if you follow what he says. He's a very level-headed guy. He's very thorough, he explained things over and over and over in many, many different ways to make sure people understood them, and he took the time to do that over the course of three and a half decades. So what's the problem? And that comes down to that they don't understand the materials and they have misunderstood words or the materials have been altered and they're now not understandable. This is what causes people to have a loss of trust in the auditor. And again I've said this in other podcasts that LRH says if you ever have any trouble with the tech, it's not the tech, it's the personalities involved. And that is how you get a loss of trust in the auditor because it's not being applied correctly Again in the auditor, because it's not being applied correctly Again.
Speaker 1:Mis-metering, miscommunication, alterations in the tech cause people to do things that LRH said not to do, period. And that brings us to number 10, suppressed spiritual wins. You're not there yet. You're not there yet. For an example, people have gains or they're a past life clear, which happens especially now, and LRH mentions this in the Clear Certainty Rundown technical bulletins that as time goes on, we're going to see more and more people who went clear in the last lifetime validly I want to say validly went clear in a past lifetime and then dropped the body, died and then came back.
Speaker 1:And what do you do with them? Well, the church says well, you have to do all of these things and it's going to cost you a hundred grand to do it, and that's about the average these days. And it's not just the auditing, it's the books, the meters, the IAS, the this, that, and it's totally unconfrontable. So this person who is actually clear from a past lifetime, sure they need some cleanup and it doesn't take forever, and then they get their certificate back. That's the way it was supposed to be. That's what these auditing rundowns, the clear certainty rundown, is for.
Speaker 1:Before that, the Dianetic Case, special Intensive. And the church changed the Dianetic Case, special Intensive, dcsi, because it gave too many people too many options as to how they could be clear and they omitted those and then made the clear certainty rundown and supposedly and I'm not saying that this isn't the case LRH had something to do with the clear certainty rundown, but we don't really know. So there are two options. But the thing is is you don't take a clear and force them to do everything that they already did unless they need to do it again. And that takes a thorough set of interviews, it takes thorough programming and it usually goes pretty quickly. So then they can get on with their quote-unquote lives and then get on to the OT levels. That's an example of suppressed spiritual wins. But a lot of time what you see in the church, especially the corporate church of Scientology, is no, no, you need to keep going. Like we were talking about the survival rundown. The person went release on the objectives in intensive and a half, two intensives and they're told nope, you're going to have to keep going for another 50 weeks. So this gives the person a loss.
Speaker 1:Scientology is supposed to be fun. Scientology is supposed to be freeing. It's supposed to be emancipating. You're winning, and you see it in the field with unseasoned, unwell-trained auditors where they don't know what the signs are that a PC is done and it's easy to overrun.
Speaker 1:I must say, and this is some part of the problem is, if you haven't had it, you haven't educated a preclear well enough. They just know that they feel good, but they don't know why they feel good, and you can overrun a person because they don't quite know yet what it is that just happened. They can't articulate it. We were talking about this before we got into the podcast, that the best success stories are written by a person who is educated in the tech to some degree or is a trained auditor, because people don't know how to say it. And so you get overrun.
Speaker 1:But these suppressed spiritual wins happen a lot more so by accident than on purpose outside of the church. More so on purpose in the church, because well, if you mess somebody up now, you have to charge them for more auditing to get them to where it is that they want to be. We're going to have to sell you another gallon of milk. You can't have the cow. We're not going to give you the cow, we want to sell you another gallon of milk. That's what happens in the church. So the wins get suppressed, they get tromped on, the person gets a failed purpose ah, the tech doesn't work. And then they become a critic of Scientology, which there are a lot of, primarily because of this.
Speaker 2:That was going to be my next question, right after this. Yeah, go ahead. Well, it's all right. No, you go ahead Well, because I think that you know, for whatever reason, the people losing confidence in the auditor, people reading stuff and having misunderstood words, trying to look up certain confidential materials or clear cognitions, and da-da-da-da doing all this stuff to try to, like you said, shirk the system or take a shortcut, and what ends up happening is there's no real trust, there's no real awareness of what the tech actually can do. And so what happens, if this is a question for you, what happens if a PC starts auditing and quits? What are they supposed to do Like they started but then they just quit? Like I can't, I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker 1:Well it's. One of these 10 things is that something has been missed, something has been overlooked by the auditor. You know you can also have hidden standard. A pre-clerk can have a hidden standard, whereas their headache has to go away in order for auditing to work. We see that a lot when they have unreal expectations and assumptions about auditing and it doesn't work that way. It works in a very gradient. Slow thing it doesn't. And when I say slow I mean relatively speaking. Low thing it doesn't. And when I say slow I mean relatively speaking, and we've talked about this in other podcasts as well. You know a year worth of therapy. You can get the gains in auditing in two or three sessions, if not better than that so that's exactly what happened with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean you know it's. It's also you know the the. A well-educated PC, a very well-educated PC, tends not to do that and give up because they understand the underlying information on that. And we try to educate our pre-clearers and pre-OTs as best as possible. And and you can't assume that people know things you have to check it when they come from the church and I ask them did you ever receive this hatting action? Did you ever receive that hatting action? What's the definition of? And almost one for one, especially in the last few years, when they come from the corporate church, they're not educated at all.
Speaker 1:It blows my mind, because so many corners are cut and they're trying to, you know, get in there and get on the cans and get some wins so we can charge you more money. I mean that's quite literally the appearance that it has and that they're being crush regged. Constantly. Phone calls, emails come into the registrar's office. You know the auditor is asking you to buy this and all this and you're not even letting the person get any wins. It never becomes more real to them.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And that's that's a huge, huge problem. So you know, beyond that and we've said this in another podcast don't go looking at the upper level materials, don't go looking at the clear cognition online or anything. Don't go looking at clear cognition online or anything like that, because you're doing yourself such a huge disservice. So this would be like point 11. Don't do that, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. You owe it to yourself to do it in the correct procedure. Nine out of 10 people that come to us have looked at stuff online and it really makes our job a lot harder and it gives them a loss because they didn't really make it and LRH didn't leave handlings for people who looked at the upper level materials.
Speaker 1:This is something we've had to institute ourselves by a process of elimination on how to handle this stuff, and it's a very delicate thing that needs to be done. We can handle it and are very successful with it, but there are so many people that give people a pass and say, okay, you saw this stuff. Well, I guess we're going to put you on the ot levels and then they fall on their head and that's. You can't let them do that, so you owe it to yourself to not to not look at the last episode of the sopranos without watching all the earlier seasons right this is what I'm, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to say you're not going to enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:You're not right, you're not going to enjoy the show if you go to chat gpt and instance. Give me a rundown of what breaking bad is about, uh, in three paragraphs, because, though, well then, there's no mystery, and right, what's the point in that now? Now, of course, that's fiction. This is not fiction. The stuff that LRH talks about is real, it's palpable, and it has to be approached on a gradient. Without that gradient, you will not get the fruits of that, and you owe it to yourself. Respect yourself, love yourself. Don't do this.
Speaker 1:It's out there, yes, should you look at it? Hell, no, because the gains that you can get from Scientology and Dianetics and the OT levels are heretofore unseen before it came on the scene, and you can get so very much out of it. You can be the richest being on the planet for you and I don't mean financially, I mean spiritually you owe it to yourself to keep your ethics in and not do this because it is such a common thing these days. I beseech you as a listener don't do it. Do it the right way, keep your ethics in. So any questions we have in closing on this topic of broken on the bridge.
Speaker 2:I think we covered it. I think that if anyone is feeling broken on the bridge, they've started and failed somewhere or had any of these phenomena or anything these things happen to them, that just knowing that we have an understanding, a thorough understanding, in fact, of where they may be, uh, if they fall in any of these places, and how to help them. So I think this is really good. This is a very, very good conversation, because I I don't know if this has ever ever been really talked about publicly, like who wants to go about talking about you know, oh, it didn't work for me and there's why, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean you know it's once. Once you've been in the tech is as long as we have, and you've you've seen the gains that are possible and you've studied it and you've applied it and you've done internships and all this stuff. Just like anything else, when you really understand something, it's easy and it's not this miasma of all this confusion and everything. It's really really simple to repair people on things and they may not know what it is, but they know that that it is. Something is wrong and you need to come to us and talk to us and we'll get you a theta meter, we'll get you in session. We'll find out what's going on where you're broken on the bridge, where it's.
Speaker 1:I've just never been able to get on the bridge. I haven't been able to progress from this point, which would call for case cracking. There's something that needs to be resolved or there's some sort of ethics situation that's going on and it's all confrontable. It's all confrontable with us, with ARC and KRC Affinity, reality, communication, understanding, knowledge, responsibility, control, power. We can help you with this and I say this at the end of every podcast we love you. This is a labor of love that we do these podcasts. We understand how scary it is and what case turns on and everything. And you want to be happy, you want to be successful, you want to flourish and prosper. You can, you can. All you have to do is get in communication and we will help you and put you on the right path so that you can get across that bridge.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:So for Quentin Arthur kept popping in and popping out because his internet is very unstable where he's at in Malaysia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry guys.
Speaker 1:Get that fixed. He already was here in spirit, if not in audio, which is okay, we understand, and there's always that getting out of non-existence as to what's going on with the Wi-Fi, wherever you're at in this day and age especially, yeah do please, wherever you're at, in this day and age especially yeah, do please so for Arthur Quentin and myself. Take care, and we'll talk to you in the next podcast, in the next day or two. Namaste, and we love you, bye-bye.
Speaker 2:Peace. Thanks, carson, bye-bye, thank you, thank you. Thanks for watching.