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Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE11EP24 - Independent Scientology - Clay Table Healing
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In this episode join us for an in-depth conversation on the subject of clay demos, clay table clearing, and clay table healing. We explore the foundations of clay demonstrations—how creating concepts in clay brings clarity, understanding, and real conceptual grasp. From the challenges of portraying abstract ideas like communication cycles to the powerful realizations that come when you truly “see” a concept in clay, the discussion highlights why this practice is such a vital and rewarding part of study.
We also examine how clay table clearing and healing go beyond classroom exercises and become tools for self-understanding and even physical or emotional relief. Drawing on references from L. Ron Hubbard’s 1960s research, they discuss how projecting difficulties into clay can create relief and healing, comparing this to ancient symbolic practices while grounding it firmly in Independent Scientology’s application. Stories, frustrations, and breakthroughs with clay demos make the conversation relatable and full of practical insight.
Finally, the podcast touches on broader implications: how clay demos reflect the way we confront life, how they can be used to resolve problems or clarify conditions, and how they provide a safe, creative way to exteriorize confusions and replace them with certainty. From exploring beingness and doingness in clay, to addressing personal struggles or even large concepts like infinity, the hosts show that clay demos are not just study aids but powerful abilities that can change one’s viewpoint and awareness.
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All right, welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast. This is season 11, episode 24, and it is Sunday, august 24th, the year of our Lord, 2025. And I'm here with Arthur Madakis and Quentin Stroud and we are going to do the topic of clay demo, demos and clay table healing and clearing and have a chat about these topics, because it is a very important topic and it is a fun topic and I'm sure there are a lot of our listeners out there that have done clay demos and go fun. What do you mean? Yeah, fun.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 1:And that's the point of the podcast is how could something like that, something so arduous, be fun? Like that, so something so arduous be fun? Uh, and so we'll get the ball rolling with, uh, arthur's experience doing clay demos on his pro trs course, and then we'll segue into clay table clearing and healing, which is something that has resurfaced on in the church to a degree in the golden age of tech one and two. I have very mixed feelings about that and we'll talk about that as well, but it is a fabulous technology outside of that that LRH developed back in the 1960s. So, arthur, what has been your experience doing clay demos? And first, maybe we should describe what a clay demo is to people that don't know. A clay demo is where you take well, they call it, don't they call it plasticine there. Artie in Australia and Malaysia, yes, Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3:Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yep, and so it's non-hardening clay, non-hardening clay. When you take the clay and you're given a what's the word I'm looking for You're given something to do in clay on a check sheet. We're talking about clay demos right now and you're making a demo of that concept in the clay. And if you can put it in the clay to where somebody can see it without looking at what the label of it is or what it was that the student was doing, and it's there and it's obvious, then you understand the concept and then that way, of course, supervisor knows that you know it and that they know you know it. It's pretty simple. So if you were going to put a, then this is a tricky one. If you were going to put a thetan in clay, that would be tricky. How are you going to put something that has no matter energy, space and time in clay? So you have to get clever in order on how to do that, and that goes for anything and everything in clay.
Speaker 1:Uh, both Quentin and Arthur have done clay demos on different courses that they've been doing on the College of Independent Scientologycom with AOGP, and I have done a ton of them. I mean so many, it's hard to count on all the courses that I've done as a Class 8, class nine auditor and case supervisor. So I enjoy the hell out of myself. But what? What's been your experience from what you used to do, arthur and Quentin, to what is your viewpoint on it now for our listeners, so they have a little bit better understanding of how remunerative it can be?
Speaker 3:it can be. Well, I think the first thing I probably want to point out is um, it's a it's it's difficult to get your head around how to do the clay demo, um, and so the one thing I do notice about it is the lack of information to some degree, um, on what and how you can actually do a clay demo. So, because I was really struggling at first on presenting a communication cycle you know where I was I was putting concepts into the labels as opposed to actually demonstrating what a comm cycle looks like, um, and so so I went online looking for more information yeah, communication cycle, um, and then so I went online looking for information. And there's no information. And, like I was looking for, you know, example demos, for example, just to get an idea of how, um a demo could, a clay demo could be, could be presented, um, some kind of understanding, um, and I actually spent a lot of time just trying to get it in my mind on how I could do it.
Speaker 3:And, of course, there's no information on clay demos, which I find really interesting because it's actually quite a powerful procedure to go through, because the end phenomenas that occur when doing a clay presentation or clay demo is quite powerful because when you can actualize a two-way communication in plasticine without saying what it is and actually demonstrating it through a 3D image, something like there's there's really strong end phenomena, that occurs because through a 3D image, something like there's really strong in phenomena. That occurs because you go from knowing cause, cause, distance effect to actually showing that distance effect without using those words, because you can't say you know person A is cause and then person B is effect. All you've got is Joe and Jeff. So how do you demonstrate cause and how do you demonstrate effect and how do you demonstrate distance without using those words? And so, because our minds work in images and sensations, like you were saying to me, john, john, every time you'd flunk me. Well, if you could think it and surely you can demonstrate it.
Speaker 3:And that would give me a lot of frustration right in my mind. I was just like well, what the flip this and what the flip that. What the flip are you talking about?
Speaker 1:right, right, I mean and and's. It's helpful when, when your course supervisor, they say I'm not seeing it and you know you're like, so it's right there. It's right there, oh my.
Speaker 3:God, it's so frustrating.
Speaker 1:I'm not seeing it. What is it that you're not seeing? And sometimes it's the whole concept and if you're lucky, you get a piece of it and they said, well, I see this and this and this, but I don't see this, like you're doing. Chapter on communication in Dynetics 55, word by word, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph in that chapter, and that's called the wall of clay on Protiar's. And in doing that, the course supervisors can say, well, I see this and this, which you know I do with you, and I say I, I see this, but I don't see that. And then you'll come back to me.
Speaker 1:You used to it. It's something that you've improved upon. As you've done it, you get. You get to something that might take three, four, five, six scenes, uh, separated with a little arrow put in clay and a label put on it saying arrow, and so it's sort of like clay in a movie. This it's, it's, uh, it's like storyboarding in clay. And so you're, you're doing these different scenes in the beginning and by the end of it and you're there quickly where you can do everything in one scene and you get a conceptual understanding of it and go okay, all I need to do is put that in clay it's this, this, this, and it's one scene as opposed to six or eight, because you have a conceptual understanding of it now, based off of all of the other clay demos that you've done it's been a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been a hell of a lot um it's fascinating well.
Speaker 3:What's also interesting as well is like, yeah, I'll get some frustration when I'm flunked, but then when I go over, um, the data again, like it's, it's quite interesting to recognize how much of what I've demonstrated I've actually misunderstood. Going back and rereading the data around, um, what the objective for the demo is, um, just recognizing, oh, I completely misread it or, hang on, I actually don't know what this means or like it's actually really opened my eyes to a lot of misunderstood. Which is actually so positive side of it knowing how to know. So okay, so I know the concept of communication, you know through language, but then do I actually know communication in my being? And then by being able to demonstrate it in such a way, without using the concepts, then the knowing applies itself inside of me. It's no longer a process, it just applies itself straight away. So I've gone from knowing to know, something that I think is really profound.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, with communication, there are so many variables to communication and demonstrating all those variables is challenging as well. But then, once you do achieve it, you're like wow. And then you go into your everyday and you see it everywhere. Yes, see these things everywhere. But not only do you see them, you also know how to remedy them. And when I say no, I mean internal no right, you have a conceptual understanding of it.
Speaker 1:That. That that is what it's all about, is it's not just? And we talked about this the other day. We were, um, we had somebody comment on the uh conversation about uh, the eight dynamic and god, and somebody said, wait, what? I had to stop at 14 26 in the podcast because, uh, that was a lofty concept. You know, they, they, they didn't, they didn't get get what it was that I was trying to describe. That you couldn't put into words, and that's the interesting thing. And that's where the, the, the clay demos, clay table clearing, clay table healing come in is because you know the, the. The first thing is how, how do you show attention in clay? You remember when you were like, what am I, how?
Speaker 1:do I I didn't forget and see that's. The other thing is I remember when I'm reading these paragraphs in the communication Dianese, 55 chapter on communication. I still remember and have mental image pictures and the quote-unquote rolling video of me making those same paragraphs and sentences in 1988, in February, february of 1988, to this day and they're they're right there and I'm like, oh, I remember how I did this and and I find that very interesting, just like what you said, but I mean the idea of the clay demo is to create mass an absence of mass.
Speaker 2:To create mass an absence of mass, right, right and so so when, when you've created that mess, how can you not recall it? You know, this is this is where I really how I benefited from duane clay demos. For me, it took me to a creator space, like when I was able to think about creation and to be able to mock something up, and mock it up with not just a significance in my own world or my own universe or my own mind. This had to also communicate to another. Being right, like somebody else had to fully duplicate what I'm mocking up. What I'm mocking up, yes, and for me, that's where it was really really impactful. Um lrh talks about clay table healing and clay table clearing as being level three and level four, as well as to doing these things and when you understand, like, but to be fully duplicated and understood is something that you're trying to get across. How often do we as human beings even get that right?
Speaker 3:how often do we?
Speaker 2:ever get the opportunity like I don't care what situation you're in, I don't care if it's at work or is in relationship or in life, what situation are you in where that person really Duplicates you like, oh my god, I totally see it, that's it, yes, and it just like you know as so, in doing clay demos, you have to like think about what are you actually creating here? What is the mental image picture that you got to get out of your head into this mass of clay? And there has to be a balance of mass and significance so that it then communicates it fully over to this other being. And they have to get it. And when they don't get it, like you said, it's frustrating. Like why don't you see what I'm seeing? Why don't you get what I'm trying to get over to you? Um, and we and we have that we deal with that all the time. We deal with that all the time when somebody just doesn't get what you're trying to get across, and how frustrating that could be yeah that's interesting.
Speaker 3:You're saying that as well because when I first started um doing the clay demos, like I relied so much significance on the labeling and if, if I reflect on when I first started them a couple weeks ago and I've done a lot since then like a lot, a lot, um, to the point I am now, like yesterday I pumped out I don't know, I think maybe six or seven and I think I only flunked one once, yeah, whereas the rest passed. First go um, which to me is like quite exciting because it's showing me that I'm really understanding how to demonstrate this. That's right.
Speaker 3:Um, the concept like in a much better way and like well, but not only that, but how my mind is working as well. So it's also a reflection of how I've been doing things in my personal world as well really complicated, because even though they're really complicated, I mean to to do a clay demonstration of a chapter is not easy. You know it's not. You know, because you're taking the words of someone and demonstrating them in plasticine. You know it's not a clear objective. You're actually.
Speaker 3:It's a whole different thing doing a chapter versus just having a basic objective towards doing a clay demo but then to have the ability to take that and apply it in such a way.
Speaker 3:Now it's actually much simpler in nature, but it took me a long time to realize the simplicity of how you can demonstrate something in clay versus the confusion I had around how something should be presented. So it's actually simplified a lot inside of my being as well. And then it kind of brings me to the clay table healing document that I came across like healing yourself through clay as an example. As part of that document, you know, taking an ailment within yourself, within yourself, and you're making a plasticine figure of yourself, essentially, and then you're also making a representation of your ailment and while you're doing the clay demos, while you're actually doing them. It's interesting the amount of data that flows in, that allows you, that allows you to see what you're doing, and it kind of made me think of witchcraft a little bit as well, like voodoo dolls, uh yeah, that kind of thing where people would make images just about to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, keep talking you keep going.
Speaker 2:No, you go go, take it over, take it over well so this is so crazy because when you're, when you're looking at clay demos, when you're looking at again a being being able to mock something up Right, so creative, clearly, so creatively, so intently to be able to duplicate that, whatever it is that you're working on, whatever you're working with, there is a level in the magical circles. It's called sympathetic magic. There's a level of sympathetic magic, there's a level of where you're actually you can actually heal your body, like your physical body. This is, this is real, real stuff. Lra says it right here On the. Let's see. This is called oh, the St Hill Manor Communication, hcl Bulletin 17 August 19,. What is it? It says 1814. So what is that?
Speaker 1:That would be 1964.
Speaker 2:64. 64, yeah, so 17 August 1964. And in here he says where is it? Okay, it says in Clay Table Healing. The preclear shows the auditor the objects and significance of his difficulty. Example a PC has a continual pain in the right leg. A perfectly ordinary clay table and clay container as above are used, but the table is narrower and longer than a training table, uh, training clear table, the.
Speaker 2:The auditor sets the pc on a side and the table and the auditor uh sits on the other side of the table and he goes on to just talk about how this pc has to then demonstrate in clay it's a pretty long paragraph he has to demonstrate in clay my right leg and the difficulty of that right leg, whatever, and you can get as elaborate as you want, as detailed as you want, but it has to fully duplicate on the other side of the table. What happens with this is you actually start to bring about a healing, it says. He says you could call it symbolism or healing by projection of one's troubles into mass. He actually says this, healing by projection of one's troubles into mass. He actually says this healing by projection of one's troubles into mass.
Speaker 2:And you can create healing with this Remedy by duplication. You can call it remedy by duplication. He goes on and on and talk about this. I think this is such a beautiful concept because once you fully understand what you can do just by putting what's going on in your life, world affairs, into clay, you see it fully, they see it fully and it duplicates and it as is it just Right?
Speaker 3:There's no longer a problem. What I find really cool Sorry, john, yeah, what I find really cool about that is how one could use clay table for their personal development in so many ways, like imagine making a plasticine figure of yourself and then replicating your current life with it and actually visually seeing your own life at this stage own life at this stage but then also creating remedies for a potential future where you can physically see it and you're physically creating it. You know there's a, there's a book called reality is plastic.
Speaker 1:You know how you shape your plasticine is how you shape your life, in a sense but speaking of speaking of which, remember the clay demo I suggested you do about how smoking is good.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I was only thinking about that this morning and sorry it's breaking up. I think there's some interference interference going on I don't want to, as is it.
Speaker 1:I don't want to, as is it, and that's that's the thing with with clay demos you're You're doing it in a course room environment where you're given a task to do in clay Something that anybody can do, not necessarily as a. It's sort of like clay table clearing and hailing at the same time. It's sort of like clay table clearing and hailing at the same time. But if you asked, you had somebody said. They said you know, I'm having problems in this area, this area, this area, I'm having issues, whatever you want to call them problems, issues, something isn't. Uh, well, like, like Quentin we were talking about this earlier your muscles aren't muscling. Uh, he went to play pickleball with Artie last night in Malaysia and then that's not a problem, the quentin it was. We were just using it as a sort of a joke.
Speaker 1:But if you had something in your life and you sat down and you were able to say, okay, this is the problem I'm having in life, this is the issue, okay, put it in clay, put it in clay, and you're not sitting across from an auditor or anything like that, and it's not squirrely. If you can't put it in clay, you can't, and that's what clay demos are, that's what clay table clearing, clay table healing, clay table clearing is a little bit different, but you can have a person who has a post. For example, let's say they're the establishment officer. Okay, I want you to put in clay what your roles are. As an establishment officer in an independent Scientology organization or in a corporate organization. You can do that, and if you can put it in clay, you know you got it if it goes along with what that role is.
Speaker 1:Now here's one Doing the conditions, a condition for one of your dynamics, the ethics, conditions, doing the condition that it is that you're experiencing in clay, and then you'll go oh, that's the condition of fill in the blank there. Now put it in clay. The good idea. You doing the condition you know, we talked about who are you really the other day. Okay, put it in clay, put it in clay, that's a really good idea and that will stay in because you've, you've as is what it was that you were doing to what you should be doing, what you know you're doing. I mean, you can put any, anything in clay and if you have a, not a body, just a body problem, but anything that's going on in life, put it in clay and then put the solution in clay.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean you, you could do this with your clients. You know the, the people that are like, okay, um, I can only help you with your business to the degree that you want to help your business. So what is it? What is it you're doing with your business right now that you you shouldn't be doing? I mean, I want you to put it in clay and I want you to send me the of it labeled. Teach them how to do clay or clay demos and then say, okay, that's what you're doing. Okay now, what should you be doing? Put that in clay and it'll stay in that's so good.
Speaker 2:I mean lrh says here he said he says that you really don't have to explain it with new terms because it works. This type of of healing is very old. He says this type of healing is very old. In fact it is the first recorded effective healing, recorded in the dawn of man. But when we add to it what we really know of the mind, when we add to it the auditing calm cycle, when we use it with the PC telling the auditor, not the practitioner telling the PC, we move into zones of healing never dreamed of before. I think this is fantastic.
Speaker 3:Well, even if you go back to the Bible, how did God create the Adam?
Speaker 2:From clay. Go back to the bible. You know how did god create the adam from clay, from clay and even back before that, in sumerian teachings, marduk spit in the dirt and made a made of mud from his spit, and that's how was a man was made in sumerian. That's what the genesis story got it from sumeria. But yeah, that this whole idea of like I'm gonna mock something, mock something up. As a God, I'm going to mock something up. Go listen to the podcast last week for the God podcast. I'm going to mock something up and I'm going to give it my essence, my truth, my energy, my knowingness and I'm going to make it so. This is how you make things happen.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, and you have to look at that if I may interject real quick, you have to look at that throughout the ages and you look at what the Greeks and the Romans did as far as putting the gods well, not necessarily in clay, but in images and representations In stone, yeah, in stone, and all of that. And you look at some of the Renaissance pieces that were made by the most famous artists, to where they took something in the physical universe and then did it, recreated it in marble, to where you could see that it was a veil and what was behind the veil and talk about as isness.
Speaker 3:I mean, wow how do you mess it up when you observe it? You can't. You. It's not a painting, it's not a two-day, it's not a 2D representation. You can walk around it. Yeah, you can observe every angle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's size accurate to what that person was and they didn't have photography then.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:You have to think about that. That came from somebody's mind, mind, mind, right now y'all got me.
Speaker 2:I want to create a, but I want to create a statue of me.
Speaker 3:Yes, I want to do it and you're good what I find interesting as well is, like through school, we're taught, you know, like when, when we go through school, they make us paint that, make us play with plasticine, they make us play with clay, um, so we've actually done these things, you know, through the western schooling system.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure about other schooling systems, but um, but we've actually been taught these things as children, right, and so, like when we're taught about dinosaurs, you know, make a plasticine dinosaur, for example. You know what's, what's your favorite dinosaur and you'll make a clay figurine of something you really like. And what I find kind of interesting is we're taught that as children, but then as adults, we put that to the side because that's just something kids do, child's play, right, yeah, it's child's play, whereas as an adult now and what, what I find really interesting is there's actually a lot of confront involved in doing a clay demonstration as well, but the cool thing is it's actually a safe confront, because if you, if you've got a life situation that actually involves other people, you can confront the clay before you confront another person, right yeah, we were just talking about that earlier, yeah yeah, um, and so I don't know.
Speaker 3:For me, like learning this new skill I, I think, is such a powerful skill to learn and that is one I think I'm going to use a lot we were.
Speaker 1:We were talking about being in. Uh, what podcast was it? It wasn't the last one, it was one of the ones. We were talking about that. That that r, a, r, e is a is a conjugation of the verb to be. If, if you really wanted somebody was having trouble with understanding the concept of beingness, have them do the verb to be in clay and there's no evaluation or invalidation involved. Other how would you put that in clay and probably really simple it's, it's very, it's very simple.
Speaker 1:But the thing is is it has to have that component of truth for that person when it's about that person not just demonstrating some guy but demonstrating yourself to being doing, having Okay, for example, be do and have Okay. Demonstrate those to me in clay. And we've talked about be do, have so much in the podcast because it's so important. But if you were to put that in clay and say show me the definition of the word to be, that is true for you. On the first dynamic, that could take up tables. My biggest clay table that I mentioned was the responsibility of leaders policy letter and putting it in clay it took eight, eight feet long each. Can you imagine what the verb to be could be and could sorry to use the word again, but the it could exist, as when you put it in clay. As far as clearing the word to be as it applies to you as a being, what what pictures did you guys get in your heads there for yourself?
Speaker 2:I was just thinking like just kind of being in oh gosh, I love the second, I had it as isness in action. I had beingness. I had beingness. I love the second. I get the image of like just kind of as isness in action. I had beingness. Hold on a second. I get the image of like just kind of standing there hands in pocket and just looking out into the distance, looking out into space and just being. I don't know how do you do that what?
Speaker 1:what do you? What do you be? Yeah, all right, what would you? What would you do? What do you? What would you? What would you put? How would you put it in clay? Just that you know, for the sake of our listeners how would you do being how?
Speaker 3:would you do being? All right, if I was to do being, I'd do a representation of myself and then I'd, probably, from my throat and from my chest and from the top of my head, I'd connect a circle around the figurine and I'd connect those three points and I'd call them theta to start with. Um, to start with, and then I would have um, just just various objects around me with arrows pointing to them, to show that I'm in theta, no matter what I'm doing. That's how I would represent being.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's different for every really simple every person, yeah, you know, uh, because being, and if we're looking at be, do and have, if I said, okay, just needs to be being already, okay, not do or have not do or have how. How would you, how would you represent it without things? You'd still have to put it in clay but I'd do exactly the same.
Speaker 3:I'd have the theta coming out of the top of my head, out of my throat, and having them all connecting, because your communication with yourself needs to be in alignment with your theta as well, right In order to be. Because if your thinking's out but your theta is pushing you towards being more positive, but your personal language and your heart space is not in alignment with that theta, then you're not going to be, you're going to be aberrated when you say, when you say they all need to be in alignment when you say you're a theta, are you talking about the, the, the energy that one produces as a Thetan, or are you talking about the individual themselves as Thetan, represented as Thetan?
Speaker 3:Okay, so if I was to expand on that right, then the clay figurine I would label as Thetan.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So Theta is coming out and it's all in alignment. But then now we're a Thetan. So my Theta, my spiritual theta, the energy or my spirit, is in alignment with my body, total alignment with my body, creating a faith term got it now it's okay, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:It's important to note that you know what. What is true for that person in putting that into a slave representation or representations is true for that person, so there's no right or wrong. It has to resonate and validate what their concept and understanding of being is. And Quentin's years was drastically different than Arthur's.
Speaker 2:Right Correct. And Quentin's years was drastically different than Arthur's right correct.
Speaker 3:now that Arthur said his, I think I was showing a doing that was the question was being in motion, so the verb being as opposed to the noun being right and we're looking at.
Speaker 2:I was showing a doing, standing out and peering out into the, into the abyss of the wilderness, of the of the sky, and that's a doing, actually. Huh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right, isn't that interesting? Then John asked you know how do you do it without the doing Right Stationary? Yeah, that.
Speaker 1:That is an example yeah, that is an example of clay table clearing. Okay, because out of it you're, you're having these byproducts of an understanding that is something different than the concept is defined as, and it's not. It's not that you're wrong, it's just that when you start doing it in clay, everything else sort of susses itself out when, well, like you know the axiom of comparable magnitudes, where you have to have a comparable magnitude, you said yours first, then Arthur said his and then you had the cognition wait a minute, I'm doing instead of being Right. So that is a prime example. It's a powerful thing that's turned into sound, that is imprinted in this digital realm where we're giving you an example, the listener of how you start to tear away these concepts. Now, it's interesting to note that back in the 50s, lras was very much on the research line of creative processing, research line of creative processing. And creative processing is where you would have the PC mock up, create something in their mind, and it could be on any given subject or anything and then later on most of our listeners probably aren't aware of this LRH abandoned the concept of creative processing around about the time and, and he understood it, there was three stages creative processing, abandoning it, let's say four.
Speaker 1:And and then 64. The study tech came on the scene with clay demos and misunderstood words and uh, too steep of a gradient and then you got lack of mass. You give the person mass. If they're studying about tractors, give them a tractor to look at and have mass. Take them out to the farm and show them a tractor or a John Deere dealership or whatever. But the thing is with creative processing, why he abandoned it is because it created mental debris. It beefed up the reactive mind. It beefed up what we colloquially say the bank, and there were reasons for that that were not understood until he developed the OT levels.
Speaker 1:I can't get into that, but let's just say there's a side effect of creative processing with the composite case. So clay table processing and healing took over that by putting it into the physical universe so that there wasn't any mental debris. That was created was in fact the severe opposite, because you're getting an as-is-ness. So you could talk to somebody and say you know what's going on, what's going on with your business, how come you have all these things going on with your business and it's not working? And they describe it to you and then you ask them how do you do that? And they go what, what? Like already, you you've got your, you you've got your cleaning business and stuff, and and, uh, you, you, you hit a wall on how many clients you can have and and and what, what you can do and everything, and and you're stuck. Yep, okay, so, yep, put it in clay with the question how do you do that that it doesn't go any further than don't worry where it's at, I've got plans.
Speaker 3:I've got plans with my new clay table ability yeah, yeah, so it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's not a what, who or why question. It's not a listing question that bypasses charge, it's how. How do you do that, like we were just talking about how do, and it's this sounds like how. How do you be? Yep, does that make sense? How do you be? What is being this for already? What is being this for quentin? What is being this for jonathan? How do you be? And in so doing, everything that shouldn't be there will come off. Quentin was looking at doing instead of being. So, quentin, if you were to re-evaluate and priorly mock up what the clay demo was going to be in clay or the clay in this case, it's not healing, but it's clearing how, how would you now put?
Speaker 2:it in clay quentin oh, you want me to answer that now yeah, well, what did you come up with is the second I didn't think about it, I just. I just said oh, that was a doing right, so how would you get there? How would you? How do you do that? Let's see, how do I do being. Oh no, that's a how question. Oh yeah, that's right. How do?
Speaker 1:I do being. How do you do it?
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:That's funny because we're asking for a doingness in clay that represents a beingness.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of an irony, right, but it has. Yeah, I would say I do, being by creating a impression of myself. It would definitely be me, and then me would have to, or my face would represent a I'm giving it a significance. I would have to say just a calmness, serenity. There'll be a serenity, yeah, there'll be a serenity Through the clay?
Speaker 3:Yeah right, so you could create the facial expression on the clay to express what you're trying to convey, whether it's a smile, whether it's a frown, whether it's open eyes. You know what I mean. So you can actually create the image of that significance on the clay as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the clay mass would have a significance of serenity and the serenity that goes across it, and then I would probably have my eyes, oh okay. So what comes to mind now is almost like having my eyes closed, so that it wouldn't have to be necessarily looking at something or trying to figure something out. It would just be there and then the clay would have a slight grin, I don't know, a slight piece across the face. Now that we're talking about it, the first image that comes to mind is almost like a Buddha kind of image, like I was in Bangkok and went to the the sleeping buddha which is my favorite buddha, by the way, the sleeping buddha and I I felt that I felt this serenity of beingness while I was there, and I think that that's how I would depict it just laying there, just being okay, let's take it to stage two for both of you.
Speaker 1:if you were to do being as a Satan and we've got Satan, mind, body and you're both talking to me about how you would do being for you in clay on the first dynamic and we went from body to Satan, how would you put that in clay, since you are a thetan controlling a body? Pray, tell.
Speaker 2:Wait, okay, ask that question again, Ian. Okay.
Speaker 1:How would you represent you as a thetan minus the body as a clay representation? How would you put being as you being, a phaeton which has no matter, energy, space or time? You're trying to represent it in the clay using matter, energy, space or time. How would you do that? Already you said you already had an idea. Let's give quentin a moment to yeah, come up with something. Yep, what would it be? Artie, get it. That's a joke, that's a joke it, just would it would just be Get it.
Speaker 1:But you've got to put it in clay, so how would you go about doing that to show the beingness of you as a thetan in clay? Okay, so I do a figurine of a of a body to start with, and I pull that body yeah, but see, the thing is is it can't rep, you can't represent yourself as a body, a body, you have to represent yourself as a thetan in clay without using your body as the quote-unquote avatar, because you're trying to try it.
Speaker 2:It's, it's a, it's sort of like no, yeah I want you to put it in clay the body is just an avatar right, yeah, okay, and that's important for this podcast to get that across.
Speaker 3:All right, all right, then what I would do is I would have a whole heap of little balls, plasticine balls, and I'd call those particles, and then, on the outside of them, right, I'd call that thought. And then I'd have an arrow towards the body.
Speaker 1:I'd call that thought and then I'd have an arrow towards the body. And again, there's no wrong answer to this. I just think it's curious for the sake of the podcast. Do you see now, quentin?
Speaker 2:what would yours be? Now? It's interesting because I saw myself being a large composite of worlds and I guess the best thing I can describe in words would be like an atom, like a nucleus, with the central things kind of going around and those electrons and protons that's again how I'm describing it in words on this podcast. But those would represent my own postulates, my own ideas, my own opinions. You know that emanate and surround me to create my beingness or be my beingness. So it'll be me as the nucleus, so to speak, and my postulates and ideas that surround me and and express from me as my that's me being, I'm being, I'm actually doing being. So then I would label me as me, and then thoughts, opinions, ideas, postulates, what would you put in the clay?
Speaker 1:as me, what? What would that representation look like it?
Speaker 2:would be a if I, if I was using it would be like a bright, it would be like a golden. I won't say a star, but it would be a golden expression. It wouldn't be a round ball, it would be like a golden expression of spikes. It's hard to even say it, but like spikes, I see it in my head, uh-huh, but. But yeah, and it would be this golden asterisk I don't know what to call it. That's a asterisk of all these, you know, and and each one would be going to a different expression, a different idea, a different concept, a different, you know, and I'm being me, that's then doing, thinkingness and postulating and ideas and opinions and viewpoints, and so that would be me being all that.
Speaker 1:Now I'm sure all of our listeners work out. Thank you and thank you, ari, I'm sure to all of our listeners they've come up with some other thing that would represent beingness without associating it with their body. How do you present beingness as a thetan when you're putting it in clay? You're going to have a different answer by every person and what their viewpoint is as to what their associations with themselves are. And so, for the sake of this podcast, this is as far as we can take it, without actually doing a video and you guys making this in clay or and then putting it as a picture up or something like that. We're just doing this for the silo. I'll do that and I'll bring in comments. Yeah, and that would you know. That would, uh, get it. Get it out of your head, which is what you're trying to do, out of your universe, out of your mind's eye, out of your the analytical mind, which is you as a thetan.
Speaker 1:Per lrh in 1961, he says this that the analytical mind Phaeton we just didn't have a word for the or a or you as being a Phaeton. And there you have it in clay, and it's going to be different, because you're going to see how that person identifies themselves and clearing the concept of them being. And if you had them, do that now, like you, where you guys are at on the bridge and let's say you did it midway on on your journey up the bridge from wherever you started and you had a start change, stop three different clay demos of your understanding from now until the end of your, your bridge, um LRH's bridge, or if you continued on with the bridge beyond that's been created by Bill Robertson and all of that up to OT48 and all that stuff. Depending on if that's something you wanted to do or not, your viewpoint on being is going to change as your awareness increases.
Speaker 3:That's true.
Speaker 1:Your identification point on being is going to change as your awareness increases and right your identity, your identification. That's why we do personality tests after every major major grade chart. Action is so that we have a comparison of here this is where you were, this is where you are. This is where you were, this is where you are. So beingness is something that, as you go up the bridge and along, you're going to have a better understanding of it for yourself, so you can see the efficacy, the positive outcome that something like this could do, because you're going to be able to put it in clay and as is that. And then you're going to look at it.
Speaker 1:And if you kept it there on your phone or you printed it off and you had it on a piece of paper and you looked at it this is what I was, was thinking b was on august 24th 2025 and then you look at it six months or a year later, after you've made some significant bridge progress, you're going to go oh no, it's this, or you might go, it's the same. I mean, what's true for you is true for you either way. But that's the point is getting it out of your mind's eye and putting it in the physical universe and then you can see that you either understand it or you don't understand it, or you're being it or you're having it. Or you're having it or you're doing it, or what the problem is. You know how do you do that and then when you see how you do that, then you see how it is. You can do it differently is the point.
Speaker 2:Isn't that?
Speaker 1:interesting. And if you ask, ask other people, what is it you're having difficulty with? Okay, put it in clay. Okay, now what's the solution to that? They'll give you the solution and put it in clay and they're going to remember it and it's going to stick. Because they did, and when LRH was doing clay table excuse me doing creative processing and everything like that, we weren't getting the results that we wanted from it, because we were creating something other than what we had already created that creates mental mass. Get it right, it's not an as isness, it's an alt, it's an alter isness. Yeah, so you put it in clay, you get an as isness, because if you create a perfect duplicate over it, it vanishes.
Speaker 1:Now your viewpoint is different and it's physical universe auditing and I use this word in a different way than objectives in Scientology, because you have two types of things. You have objective and subjective. This is an objective process in the form of it's in the physical universe. A subjective process is when you're auditing somebody and you're auditing them on a subject, but you can put it in clay. So if they have a body problem, put it in clay. If they have a difficulty on a job or a post or a condition or anything, put it in clay.
Speaker 1:And if you can't put it in clay, you know there's something there. There's either a misunderstood word or you. You just don't have it yet. And when you do have it and you put it in clay, you're going to have very, very good indicators and you go yeah, that's perfect. Just just like these guys that did these, these marble figures in Italy, didn't have a picture, and what they had in their mind's eye was what they did, because if they made one mistake, they couldn't, they had to go back and start over and get another block of marble. Same thing, yes, which?
Speaker 3:is pretty amazing yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:So I was just.
Speaker 3:I was just going to throw one more thing in. I was just thinking as well, like for the remote viewers, like imagine introducing with your remote viewing sessions, like how different would it be then as well, and that'd be a cool experiment actually. Like throw a question out and they'd get you know 10, 15 people to do a clay representation of, of their, their perception of a location or a person or something, and say it in clay what, and put it in clay as opposed to drawings or squiggles or scribbles. Right, yeah, put it in a clay and see what happens right and, and here's, here's a, a bean burner.
Speaker 1:How would you represent the theta universe in clay?
Speaker 3:well, it's funny you ask that because I got thinking of the last podcast we did and I think it'd be easier to put um, uh, number seven in um than it would be to to do dynamic eight. I think it'd be easier to represent dynamic seven than it would dynamic eight, how do you represent infinity in clay?
Speaker 1:I mean you could use the infinity symbol, but that's significance. I mean you know I'm just taking it to the extreme, but that's putting too much significance in the clay and the label, well, this is okay, that's a symbol for that. And we did that podcast about conceptual understanding, and conceptual understanding doesn't involve words, it doesn't involve symbols, because words are made up of letters that are symbols that make a sound, so on and so forth. Try that one. And how do you represent the eight dynamic without too much significance in the clay? As is infinity, that's right.
Speaker 3:I've got it, I've got it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:It's going to be a blob of clay and then no shape, just a blob of clay, and the label is going to be it. I T.
Speaker 1:Quentin, how would you do it?
Speaker 2:Talk about the universe of the 8th dynamic. The 8th dynamic, the 8th dynamic, I would do Infinity. I would do If a person came up and walked up and saw this they never saw infinity before I would.
Speaker 1:It's a toughie.
Speaker 3:It is a toughie.
Speaker 2:How about this? How about y'all message me and I'll tell you in the message. If you listen to this podcast and you want to know how q would mock up infinity, how q would create god, I'll tell you the private message.
Speaker 1:Yeah so there you have it is is if you can put it in clay, you understand it. So that's the whole point of clay demos clay table clearing where you're clearing somebody up on a particular area, and all that stuff and clay table healing is where you're healing something that is persistent and if the person duplicates it well enough in the clay for them, then it as-is-es itself and handles it. We're not saying that you can and we're not not saying that. We're just saying that if you duplicate it well enough in clay, the outcome of that will be nothing short of a miracle. I totally agree.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I don't see it Like after doing so many clay demos and I don't see it like after doing so many clay demos. I actually don't see it as a skill. I'm actually calling it an ability like I've learned a new ability, not a skill like I've learned an ability that I can use in any area of my life yeah, I choose, and that's that's the thing. I'm really excited by that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, engineers, they say if you can't build the bridge in a small model, it won't work. That's right, because you can't put it out there. So it's the same concept, whether it's something you're doing in your life or it's something you're trying to represent as a concept or anything like that, or a body problem. If you can recreate it, then you have an as-is-ness, but you're also creating a persistence of the state itself and how it should be, and so that's the end. Result is is that you have a conceptual understanding of this and so a lack of persistence, unless you want to keep.
Speaker 1:keep it there on on purpose, and the thing you want to keep there is a happy, healthy body that functions properly right so interesting conversation and I'm sure we'll have some some that's pretty cool some feedback on this from people and everything with questions and and comments of how they've done things and what they can do and all that stuff. Feel free to put them in the comments on YouTube and that will you know. We can have a dialogue about it and everything, because you know it's a vast subject because anything can be done in clay. So for Quentin Arthur and myself, give it a try.
Speaker 1:Put it in clay, get on a course on the collegeofindependentscientologycom. If you don't know how to do it, we'll show you how to do it. We have a free basic study course and we have the student hack course. If you were to just put the logics from the data series in clay, from an example in your own life of how do you do that, I mean, the results would be astounding. And you can do this with any data, not just Scientology and Dianetics, independent Scientology and Dianetics even in the TDRs, clay demos should be introduced into HTR as well.
Speaker 3:I reckon for the PCs That'd be a good introduction. Oh sorry, that'd be a good addition to doing the TRs. What do you?
Speaker 1:mean.
Speaker 3:Like through the communication course. Yeah, so doing the first four TRs, I think it'd be great for the PC to demonstrate the TR first and then apply the TR.
Speaker 1:You mean the student doing the?
Speaker 2:TR.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you did on your course.
Speaker 3:Like I did. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that helps a lot because you know they get what they're supposed to do. You know that, they know that. You know how to do that and that's why it's on the course and it's talked about in the Mark Schreffler podcast, which I'll refer back to. That Mark did with us back in 2017 about working with LRH on the Pro TR's pilot of the course before it became a codified check sheet. He talks about how all of this stuff came about with clay table and everything and that check sheet. It's the same one that I did in 88. I think he was there in 81 or 82.
Speaker 1:And LRH was a genius with this stuff, because if you can't do it, you can't put it in clay, and that that comes down to anything being this, doing this, having this work, play all that stuff, body problems, you name it. If you can't put it in clay, then you don't understand it, and that's the whole point of this. So for um, we're getting close to an hour here. So for Quentin and Arthur and myself, uh, we've really had a lot of fun doing this podcast and again, I was a bit dubious on how far it was going to go, but we bounce things off of each other, and I'm sure we're bouncing things off of you, our listener, to make you think and postulate and perceive. And we'll see you in a couple of days for another podcast, namaste, and we love you. Bye-bye, peace, thank you, thank you, thanks for watching.