Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
Did you know Scientology the Subject and The Church of Scientology are two completely different things? Find out why and what the difference is and how it can help you. Topics range from Independent Scientology, solving life's problems, past lives, secret government, metaphysical, Para-Scientology, UFOS/UAPS, ghost hunting, spirituality, and a lot more! Come check us out!
Scientology Outside of the Church Podcast
SE11EP37 - Independent Scientology - Karma and Help
What if the kindest thing you can do is say no? We take a clear-eyed look at responsibility, reciprocity, and the invisible costs of taking on other people’s chaos—then map out how to help in ways that actually work. Starting with the age-old question “Am I my brother’s keeper?” we unpack a practical answer: yes, but only to the degree the person is willing, able, and aligned. From there, we dive into potential value, fair exchange, and why your time is the scarcest asset you own.
Our conversation moves through real stories: shutting down an AI study tool when it started enabling self-auditing, calling out out-tech that bypasses case and creates repair cycles, and the small boundary that changes everything—“Call me back when you fix it.” We connect these to core frameworks: assigning the correct condition instead of absorbing it, practicing an economy of effort, and expecting completed staff work so the “problem” arrives with a proposed solution. Along the way, we explore karma versus dharma and why your actions only make sense in light of your purpose. Help that advances your mission compounds; help that derails it drains.
Communication sits at the center. TR3 and TR4 make it possible to handle originations without losing the goal of the conversation. Com lag and reliability become practical indicators of who will follow through. We talk about choosing reliable sources, defending standards, and keeping your universe clean by doing business—emotionally and practically—only with people who demonstrate willingness and consistency. The takeaway is simple and strong: help those who help themselves, and you’ll have more to give, to more people, for longer.
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Hi, and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast brought to you by AOH-GP.org and the College of Independent Scientology.com. It's just College of IndependentScientology.com. I'm here with Arthur Midakis and Quentin Stroud. And Arthur has an idea for a podcast. We don't even know what the idea is. So, Arthur, over to you, and we'll see how this unfolds. Um, take it away, Arthur.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Well, I kind of actually got the idea from an Instagram I saw a little uh probably a week ago, and it kind of stuck in my mind. And because we've got so much going on around us in our personal lives, our everydays in the world, political views, some really strong impacts. And the question's really simple. How responsible are you for somebody else's karma? Now, when you say karma, if we don't okay, so karma, yeah, you might break it down. Yeah. So karma in the sense of like, okay, there's somebody in your circle that has an issue. How much are you going to make them a part of you? How much are you going to invest yourself in other people's problems? How much time do you invest in um political situations that may not affect you or concern you? Um, that kind of dynamics. So, how much of yourselves do we actually invest in other people where in the nicest possible way we probably shouldn't?
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Okay. Um, so the way I've the way I've had that. The way I've heard that asked before is am I my brother's keeper? Right? Am I my brother's keeper? Um, and that is um a question that has been asked since Cain and Abel in scripture. Like am I my brother's keeper? Um, and my answer to that personally is yes, I am. Um, I am my brother's keeper. To what extent do I extol, to what extent do I extol my my energy, my resources, my well-being, my my wherewithal, to what extent do I stole extol that is based on um what LRH calls is the uh potential of a uh valuable individual, pvi, pvi, potential of a valuable individual. And I ask the question, is this individual to what degree is this individual valuable to all the dynamics? And then I will give more energy over to that. So when I look at you, when I look at Jonathan, when I look at the people, uh independent Scientologists who are really making roads and making their way up the bridge and doing things they need to do, oh, I'm there for you, buddy. I'm there for you. Am I my brother's keeper? Yes, I am, because I see you as a valuable, potentially valuable individual and what you're what you're at least attempting to do. And that's how I determine how much energy I extol uh towards that individual.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's a good viewpoint, actually. That's a really good viewpoint. Yeah, because how often you well, and I think for me personally, whenever something strikes me like that, it it lets me know that I still have um confusion around it. You know what I mean? Because if I didn't have confusion around it, it wouldn't have stood out so strongly. Um whereas, you know, if if if I'd already made my mind up as you have, then yeah, it wouldn't have it wouldn't have stuck out to me as such. Um, and so that's a that's a fair thing to say, yeah. It's like a misunderstood word, you know. Like how often do you have like a misunderstood word that you're constantly using, and then the moment you understand it, you're like, uh, I don't need to use that anymore because it was incorrect the whole time.
SPEAKER_04:I'm saying, I'm sitting over here. You can't you guys can see me on the camera sitting right in my thumb going trying to keep my mouth. Go, go, go, go, go. What are you saying? Go. Well, I mean, um, you you you guys are, and and that's and I have to say this is this is something that many people have told me about our podcast, is that we are significantly different personalities, and and and when I say that, I mean our our viewpoints are significantly different based off of our realities, our uh awareness levels. Uh and if I were to go as far uh as as Quentin does, our astrological signs. I've had people say, We are you're definitely a Cancerian, you know. I could tell, you know, you got a little of a glimpse on that last podcast, and I really appreciate your honesty. You know, that that that kind of thing. And Quentin is like, bitch, there's the door.
SPEAKER_02:And let me and let me calculate the equivalency of of uh you know the potential of a valuable individual. Let me calculate that real quick before I help you.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right, right, right. And and and and that creates and and and as far as far as Arthur goes, Arthur is uh he has a complete he has a completely different viewpoint than Quentin or myself, but yet the three of us, uh we, you know, it's the the sum is greater than its parts type of a thing in in the podcast. Arthur's always posing, you know, well, did you think about this, or did you, you know, what about this? And you know, and I'm surprised when when Arthur says that, not in a negative way, I'm just surprised. Oh, I didn't think about that, you know, because I look at it from a tech viewpoint. Quentin looks at it from a multi-school viewpoint of all of the the the fields that he's been imbued himself in and all of that. So uh my viewpoint to to come full circle, my viewpoint is is is well, I've always been this way, but once I got trained as an auditor, and once I got knocked around in the field trying to find my way as an auditor in the field, and came to grips with the reality of well, let's just put it this way the independent field is a shit show. And looked at that and went, geez, I gotta do something about this. I need to build a better beast, and uh it's cost me relationships, it's cost me money, it's cost me um you know, well, you work all the time, and you and you're getting so much done. How do you have a life? I don't. This is my life, and that that my life is based upon somebody needs to put this stuff here, uh, you know, you know, whether it's it's it's paying for online services, host the host LRH's material, either in audio format or online course room with all the courses, and paying people to move a course room from one place to the other, and do all that data entry, and then you know, creating this new subscription platform with LRH books on tape, read by LRH and an AI voice, and creating a whole new sound, uh basically our own version of SoundCloud and uh group processing and all of this stuff. And Quentin is this way too, and and this and this is why I'm answering it this way is he's like, you know, yeah, that'd be great. So people could have access to this for eight dollars and eighty-eight cents a month. Who wouldn't do that? And it's not not to make money, but it's to put it out there. So if you know, for whatever reason, uh Quentin is very brass tax, and I'm you know, but but everybody everybody deserves to know what's going on and needs to be helped. My viewpoint is is that everybody should be helped. So my viewpoint is okay, that's good. I don't know if it's ref, like, re left, right, or up or down, but that's you know something needs to be done about it. And but LRH says you can about it.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. Go ahead, go ahead. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and to what degree, because like it takes an active reciprocity, uh, kind of like what you were saying earlier, Quentin, around um, you know, if you can see somebody putting the effort in, then yes, you'll you'll you'll definitely step in and and help them progress. Um and then similar to you, John, as well, like the same very similar to to your story in the sense where I've put myself out there so many times and it's actually bought bit me in the bum so many times. Um, it's actually worked against me rather than for me. But then as an individual, to some degree, it's actually worked for me more as well, because I learned a lot through those experiences as well.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Um we learned from our mistakes.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting question, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, what do what what do you do? And and and when and this can get off into multiple directions, you know, adopting firm policy that you're not taking advantage of. It used to be back in the day on Facebook, and and Quentin Quentin bears the brunt of this now, less so me, because he's our communication secretary and everything like that. But um, you know, you have people who just ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, and and you spend all this time with them, and and then you you start adding it up in your head, man. I've talked to this person a lot, they haven't done anything, they haven't bought any services or anything like that. And then then you start to get the picture, okay. Well, the rubber meets the road. Do you want to do a service? Do you do you want to change this instead of just asking me questions? Um yeah, you know, and and I'll I'll go as far as to say this on on record. We took we took our our fin AI off of our website in the college as of two days ago. You want to know why? You want to know why? There's two reasons.
SPEAKER_01:Why?
SPEAKER_04:Well, because um intercom, the company that that produces the platform that that that fin resides, decided to raise the rate of fin by 400% a month as a subscription. That's that's the first first reason. Second reason is is that people were misusing it. You want to know why?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm misusing it.
SPEAKER_04:Why? Well, because they what they were doing is they were going in and asking Finn for things that allowed them to, well, I'm just just gonna be blunt and say, allowed them to self-audit. And I looked at it over time and I oh no, yeah, and I thought, okay, with great power comes great responsibility. And this is completely in line with Arthur's topic. And I have to look at it.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting.
SPEAKER_04:I have to look at it from that viewpoint. So go ahead, and we'll we'll get into that later. Go ahead, Arthur.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's interesting. Um, yeah, I didn't realize that um people were doing that with um with Finn, because it's designed to be a study aid.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. It's not meant to be a a a way to replacement a replacement for the tack and to do it right. I I I can't allow that to happen. I can't allow it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's fair enough. I just totally fair enough.
SPEAKER_04:And and and you know, that gets into a whole other conversation, a whole other podcast, or something like that, is is if you have Harry Potter's magic wand, what would you do with it?
SPEAKER_00:Don't ask me that question. I cannot say, but I cannot say on the podcast, right?
SPEAKER_04:But but do you see how this dovetails it this dovetails right back into what you're saying and and and and karma and everything like that? And then and yeah, this is a great podcast idea because it it goes back to um how how responsible should you be for for your fellow man or your fellow being. And at at some point you have to say, okay, within the confines of this this particular thing, I'm I mean, you know, we have all of the the technical volumes and stuff like that out there, but we we we fall short of having quote unquote everything out there. We don't publish the OT levels or any the L's or anything like that, and we we have a lot of information that other people don't have. Uh and I have been derided severely by one individual for not putting that material out there that that he wanted, he's no longer with us.
SPEAKER_03:Um but um not putting out the uh uh the confidential material?
SPEAKER_04:The the L's, the L's rundown stuff, yeah. Oh, okay. So that's weird. That's that that's the the the extreme side of it is is I made an agreement with the person that I got got the materials from that I would not distribute them um because well what what's the what's the right thing to do, which is the crux of Arthur's podcast point, is what is the right thing to do. And LRH says there are two sides to responsibility, do something or do nothing at all. And that's that's the crux.
SPEAKER_00:So how do you discern between the two? That's the trick, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:So I um I I think it's kind of I think it's kind of um laid out for us in a in a in what I would say in a kind of simplistic way. Larry said a couple things that I can't find the reference, I was just looking it up, uh, but but I don't have Finn anymore. Um is my believing but LRA said uh we're here to help the I I'm remembering that LRA said we're here to help the able become more able, right? Right. We're here to help the able become more able. And while there are those that are put on planet earth to help the disabled, the downtrodden, the sick and the and the diseased, while there are those that are put on here to help them, we want to help them become more able to do what they're here to do. And when you talk about karma, uh um Artie, when you talk about karma, you have to also talk about Dharma, right? D-H-A-R-M-A. So karma is what you kind of you rank racking up that karmic or that you racking up that karmic or that spiritual bank account as relates to what you put in, you get back, we reap what you sow, what goes around, comes around. It said multiple different ways in multiple different cultures. Um that's karmic in consideration, but one's dharma is their universal purpose, it's their reason for being here, it's their what they agreed or what they decided as a being to show up for on this planet and uh in this in this dispensation, that's their dharma. Now, your karma is only relevant to your dharma. I want you to get this. I want you to understand. So if your karma is I'm here to be on airplanes because I want to, I want to get people flying across the globe, the Wright brothers, for example, if that's your if that's your dharma, that's your purpose, that's what you, that's your life's work, that's what you need to do. Jonathan's dharma is AOGP. That's a part of his dharma, helping, helping clear the planet, helping uh raise OTs and get people up the bridge and helping people get this awareness in. That's his dharma. Anything that supports his dharma, right? Anything that supports his dharma is a karmic plus. So I'm doing this podcast with Jonathan. You're doing this podcast with Jonathan. Am I my brother's keeper? Yes, I am, because my brother is on a road of his dharma, of doing this thing, supporting his uh working his universal purpose, doing what he feels he's here to do. He just said it. This is my life. This is my life's work. This is I I want to I want to continue to make independent Scientology available to mankind. And I want to support my brother's dharma, you see. And I make that, and I make that understanding, and I come to that um that self-determinism because I looked at his potential value. I looked at the value that this man is bringing to the world. I I go through my own ethics conditions and go through any doubts or any considerations or any uh uh unknowns, and I look at this stuff and I say, Who am I? Where am I? What am I? How am I gonna do this? Who am I gonna support? And I look at that and I say, This is somebody who is really in their dharma. Let me be a part of that, let me support that. And to that degree, he and we are better for it. Well, so I'm here to help the able become more able, right?
SPEAKER_00:And Jesus, Jesus said it quite quite simply as well, you know, he'll you know, God helps those who help themselves, so to speak. Oh sorry, yeah, not sorry, yeah. Um but you but it's such a true statement because yeah, because it's such a true statement, and so yeah, so I do apologize for my little um mistake there, but yeah, um and it's such a like that says it all, doesn't it? You know, God helps those who help themselves. Now, if we take on that stance as well, we should be helping those who help themselves.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and that's what uh that's what Allerates says says to do is that you know, a beast uh uh a being is is basically good and they will put in their own ethics. And that means if they're doing something wrong, they will pull in their own motivators to stop them from what it is that they're doing that they know that they shouldn't be doing, even if it is in the most oblique way. Um you know, all all engrams an engram has two sides, an overt and a motivator. This is what LRH says. So in that wise, you have to look at it and go, okay, well, that is you know, that it that is what and and Quentin, we can delve into this more if you want to, and Arthur as well, that is karma. The universe the universe doesn't do anything to you.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna let you do whatever you want, but you you you can do whatever you want.
SPEAKER_04:Literally, the only thing, the only person you have, and and and you know, if you don't agree with this and you want to say that the man in the sky with the beard sitting on a cloud is doing this, okay, that's fine. I respect that, and I respect your beliefs. Um, however, um, I know personally, and ethics is a personal thing, that uh that is not the case. Now, we may all be part of a uh a holodeck or a hologram and all that jazz, and that's called you know the physical universe, and we're of the theta universe, and we're sticking our Thetan finger into a body and using these minimalized perceptions uh that prevent us and our resistor to our own intentions, postulates, uh, creation of energy, so on and so forth. But the thing is, is is it all ends and begins with you. That's something that has to be taken into consideration with you know what what what do you do for your fellow man? So if you you look at it and you go, uh should I help this person? I mean, what do you what do you really know and how much can you ask? I think is something that that that should be approached if they're helping themselves. What is what is helping themselves? I'm I'm serious, I'm asking that question.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's somebody that okay, yeah. For me, I think it'd be as simple as somebody who invests in themselves um to move forward in their own direction, whatever direction that may be. And this is this is where it's where it gets tricky because if somebody chooses to go down what we perceive a rotten path, so to speak, they've chosen that. Um so who are we to discriminate what someone chooses their path to be? So maybe it becomes a an individual decision on who you choose to help, because some paths will be very uncomfortable and some paths will be more comfortable. Um so that's the karmic decision right there. How comfortable comfortable do you want to be? Um, and then and then we can fall into empathy for people as well, yeah. Um, where we could see somebody literally going down a bad path that we know is going to cause them harm. And so we go out of our way to try and protect them from their path. And I think that's more where my question is based on who do we actually help?
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, I I will say this that that LRH kind of gives us some ideas on that. I one of my favorite favorite books is Dianetics 55. And in there, LRH talks about pandeterminism, right? And I'm reading here um uh in the chapter um pandeterminism, he says we here we come immediately to what uh we mean by ability. It would be the ability to start, change, and stop things. If we if we have an ability to start, stop, and change things, we of course must be willing to start, stop, and change things. Those people who are unwilling, unwillingly behaving in some direction so as to start, stop, or change things are very sick people. They're unwillingly behaving, right? And in this category, this last category, we discover that the bulk of the human race at this writing. And so he talks about pandeterminism, and he says it, he says, um, self-determinism, a say man is in good measure self-determined. Pandeterminism would mean a willingness to start, change, and stop on any and all dynamics. That is its primary definition. A further definition, also a precision definition, is the willingness to start, change, and stop two or more forces, whether or not opposed. And this could be interpreted as two or more individuals, two or more groups, two or more planets, two or more life species, two or more universes, two or more spirits, whether or not opposed. This means that one would not necessarily fight, he would not necessarily choose sides. And this is a controversy. He goes and talks about the controversy of mankind. That when you're pandetermined, you don't really go in and judge, right? You actually are willing, based on the ability to be pan-deterministic, you're willing to start or start, start, stop, or change things, uh, two or more things at a time. And so right now, I got you, I got uh art, I got Jonathan, I got art, I got everybody listen to this podcast, I got clients that I work with across the globe, I got so many individuals, forces that I'm willing to start change and stop. And to that degree, you can see one's ability, right? You can see how one is how able one seems to be. How willing are you to start change and stop things? Most people, most people be like, oh, okay, I'm stuck. I can't get out of this situation. I don't know how I'm gonna pay my bills, I don't know how I'm gonna pay my rent. Uh uh. Messed up, messed up, messed up. Cry, cry, cry. Can't do nothing, can't move, can't think, can't breathe, can't. I just had somebody call me right before this podcast having a panic attack because their internet went out. Hello? The internet went out and they had a panic attack. I want you to hear me. So to that, and I literally said, call me back when you fix it. And I hung up the phone. I'm not, I'm not going through this with you. I'm not.
SPEAKER_00:You so you love it. That's something that's something I love about you. And I find it really hard to be that way. Hey. I find it super hard to be that way.
SPEAKER_03:You got time for it, y'all. I don't have time for it. Listen, call me back when you fix it. And then you can't. Okay, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:I've got a course idea for you, and it's gonna be called how to be a tough motherfucker.
SPEAKER_03:Like you're in the middle of a panic attack because your internet went out, and and and and and and so I said, Call me back when you fix it. He fixed it, called me back, and said, I don't like the way you did that. I I would have said it differently. And I said, you might have. He said, I would have said I would have said it differently. I said, and you might have, but guess what? You got it fixed without me having to be on the phone and walking you through every dot and every tittle. And I got time for that.
SPEAKER_00:You know what? That's a perfect example to my question as well, because you made them responsible for their karma. So you did not buy into their karma.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, your so to speak. Your crisis, your crisis does not constitute my emergency.
SPEAKER_04:Right. That's one of my cuisms. That's that that sign in the uh uh it was an auto repair shop in Missouri where they said, your your inability to to plan and foresee problems does not constitute an emergency on our part. Right. Exactly. I don't I can't. I just can't. Right. And and I'm gonna swing this back to the ethics conditions because what what is it? It's an emergency. It's an they're in emergency going, Quentin, Quentin, my internet's going out. I need you to help me with this. And you're like, uh you're you're saying, look, I'm a I'm assigning you, I'm assigning you this condition of emergency, and I have to assign you this condition of emergency and have you follow through with it in order to get out of emergency, and that way you are saying uh publicly to that person or that group or organization or whatever, that I I'm assigning you this condition, and therefore you do not take on the condition yourself. Think about that.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you what I just said, what I just said, you do not say it again, Jonathan. Say it slow this time.
SPEAKER_04:Perfect. Slowly. If uh LRH says if you fail to, and we've did a podcast on this, the condition you fail to assign. I'm gonna repeat it again, and this this goes out to the third and fourth dynamic, y'all. If you fail to assign a condition to a person or a group or a situation and you do nothing about it, you take on that condition yourself, period.
SPEAKER_00:And it is so the karma spreads.
SPEAKER_04:So the karma spreads, so to speak.
SPEAKER_03:Wait, wait, let me make sure I get it right. So if you fail to dis if you fail to assign, give it to me again.
SPEAKER_04:The condition you fail to assign is the condition you take on. So this person is going around like chicken little. Yeah. The internet is failing, the internet is failing, the internet is failing. What do I do? And you're like, oh my god, the internet is failing. What do we do? I have tailed. Here's what you need to do. And I'm like, hold on, I'm gonna tell this client I'm on with right now, I'm I'll call you back later. And then you get on with the person that's saying there's energy their internet is failing. And okay, let me let me down. Guess what? You just took on that.
SPEAKER_03:Now we're both in emergency.
SPEAKER_04:Now we're both in emergency.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, not me. And I wouldn't even do anything. I was just laying in the bed. I wasn't doing nothing. I could have took the call. I could have sent a call for the next hour. Not me.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And so to he's he said, he said, he said, what you do? I said, nothing. Oh my god, my internet's going out. I said, call me back when you fix it.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And then then then we get back to if you want to handle it appropriately, you tell the person, and I'm not telling you what to do or anything like that. This is more joking. You remember that thing I've mentioned to you about billable hours?
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_04:About what? Billable hours. Because when you when you pay an attorney, the minute you get on the phone with that attorney, he's writing down the phone with with this guy, and this is when I ended. Okay, and he sends sends that to his assistant that says, Okay, bill him for this 56 minutes. I sat there and talked to him about his internet being off.
SPEAKER_02:Internet. That's right.
SPEAKER_04:That's right. Because and and this this plays into what Arthur's talking about is how how much do you take of your attention units and apply it to somebody else? And I'm gonna be uh and Quentin's gonna fall out of his chair when I say this. When you when you're doing this sort of a thing, you have to look at, okay, I've got so many allotted minutes left in my lifetime, whatever that is, and all of this time and this education that I have on this and the solutions that I can provide, uh I get paid for that. That's that's and why do you get paid for that? Because if you're gonna invest your time with somebody and you're gonna help them do something, you have to look at it and go, okay, this is what I'm getting paid for. This aids my survival, my dynamics, and it aids their survival and their dynamics, and it's a return of investment. Okay, we're looking at this from a monetary standpoint because everybody does the same thing, right? Like, like you just said, I ain't got time for that. No, you don't, because you've got other people who have skin in the game, they have skin in the game, and that is when if you've got an attorney and you've given him uh what do they call it? When you you give them funds to to work for you, it's a retainer, a retainer retainer. That's what I was looking for. It's it's a retainer, okay. So you've got a retainer with this attorney, and the attorney says, I want you to know that I'm gonna bill you at$120 an hour, even if you're talking about the weather, his time is money. Now let's let's take the money out of it here, okay, for a minute. Okay, money is not the issue, but your time is the most valuable thing you have. Another person's time is the most valuable thing they have, and the two will either meet or they will not, and that goes back into if you and and I was just just talking about this this morning for the podcast to somebody else, is policy is only as good as you have agreement, and this goes back to the fin thing as well, as we mentioned earlier in the podcast. We put Finn out there, and the policy is it's here to help help students and answer questions for people who have fundamental basic questions on it, and and any question can be answered, but but for every answer that Finn gives, it's a dollar. Wow, yeah. I I actually had to butt in on conversations with people and say, look, every question you ask of Finn, and these were these were really, really deep technical questions and stuff, because I get notified when people ask questions and I see the questions on there, and and you know, the 10, 20, 30 questions with Finn on the on these things, and then it's and it's costing the org a dollar a piece. They give you an allotted number of questions, like 50 or something a month. Then this doesn't have anything to do with their 400 increase, it's that 400 increase plus over 50 questions, a dollar per question. Yeah, 400 400 and something, 450 dollars a month, 51 dollars a month, and after 50 questions, it's a dollar a question. And so if you have agreement in policy that things that that these things are for, when you could go on the college and you could use um pedal or uh the oracle, same thing, and you could go in there and you could do your research. At some point, you have to say, okay, what what's the greatest good for the greatest number here? Should I invest this money? Should I invest this time? Is it is my return of investment, so to speak, whether it's energy or or or or in the form of money or attention or all of those things, is this the most viable thing? Because nobody's coming to to pay this bill but but AOGP. And that's the same thing as to whether you want to, how much time do you want to invest in somebody? Are they in agreement with the policy? You know, we have these PCs that come up and go, you know, well, I self-audited on this, and I self-audited on that, and I did this, and I took the theta meter, and and I looked into this, and I looked into that, and all this stuff, and I'm sitting here writing this stuff down, going, okay, gotta fix this, gotta fix that, gotta fix this. And then you go, okay, so they're not on policy, yeah, with with what LRH says you should be doing, and I see this all the time, and uh I and I I I gotta give an example of this if you guys will entertain me on this. Uh, this happened the other day, and uh actually I have it on on Messenger and I sent it to you guys. And this has to do with if whether people are on policy, and should you should you help them or should you just walk away on something? And it had to do with uh I forget what his last name is, this guy that says he's LRH Reborn. And and I we my 2D at the time back in 2020, 2019, dubbed him LRH 2.0 and it stuck. And I posted on Facebook the other day because this is directly in line with what's what's my karma, and this was sent to uh Pat Krennick, my my former mentor. I'm gonna read this real quick if you guys don't mind, because it has everything to do with karma, and then we'll wrap this up. I said, Patricia, promoting a registered felon who is currently incarcerated as having tech that gives quote unquote wins and bypasses cases is wholly and completely irresponsible for someone of your training and capability. Uh you're an opinion leader in the field until this con artist persuaded you to believe his originations on the meter. You yourself should know from the class eight course, like LRH does, that the auditor doesn't know what the read on the meter is, it's just a read. Because this felon has a floating needle on being LRH of all people, doesn't mean he is actually that being. It doesn't mean he or you have license to make it okay to create new processes for people to do. It's wholly irresponsible for you to do that and out tech. Because when you do, and these people come to our org or someone else's with case troubles from running this drivel, want help, have to pay us to repair them, and feel horribly betrayed that they trusted you and this nut. Yes, everyone is responsible for their own case, and they can make their own decisions, providing they aren't given false and wholly inaccurate data on that real auditing technology is based on factual information, which is what he is purveying, and is his not and your credibility and reputation go down the drain with it by signing off on it. As far as we are, and I have to go to the next image, as far as we are concerned, as an organization, you have been sucked into an operation that is scuttling the field even more with this type of agreement and complicity. In so doing, you've fallen into a condition of enemy at best, looking at it from this side of the field. I'd be remiss not to quote unquote assign that condition as we have no interest in taking it on ourselves. Ethics is a personal thing, and there's no enforcement that can be done, nor do we want to enforce it. That's on you and especially Justin, LRH 2.0, to take a look at. Be it known that is our my viewpoint as AOGP. Take a look at that, and both of you should be honest with yourselves in so doing. We distance ourselves from you because of the four years because four years ago, and we'll continue to do so because of it. We're here for you and always will be. However, we are tired of cleaning up other organizations' messes when it comes to out tech and making it okay. This includes the corporate church of Scientology. It's not only out ethics, but suppressive to bypass cases without tech and be okay with it. You know better. So that's a situation that I assigned, so to speak, a condition and made it known to others that this was not okay. What others do with it, that's that's their prerogative or not. So I'm not going to be a part of that that sort of thing. So when somebody comes to you and says that they want help and yet all they take, take, take, take, take, take, take, take, take, and you spent 20 hours talking to them on Facebook Messenger, as Quentin does sometimes or more, and I used to do, or Arthur still, you have to say, okay, is this person willing to help themselves? And what's going on here?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And you know what I kind of like about Quentin's approach to that? He's already made up his mind. He's already saying, help yourself and then I'll help you straight off the bat. Whereas you just raising the question, um, you know, should I?
SPEAKER_04:Right. Well, I'm I'm I'm making it. Yeah, I'm trying to make it, you know, self-determined. Here's our viewpoint. Uh, if it's true for you, it's true for you. If it isn't true for you, it isn't true for you. And that's what that was what Quentin was saying is he was basically saying, talk to the hand, you go handle this, and and that's it. And he said it in one sentence. And then Quentin's Quentin's master, a master at that. But I mean, you you have to give some context and and what's going on and and what's been seen, of course, because you're you're dealing with your your karma, your future, your time, your money, your effort, your uh resources, more importantly than anything else, is you only have so many time so much hours available to you in the day, and you have a lot of things that you need to get done, both for your own production survival, and you can only put beans that get beans out. And in our case, we do these podcasts, and we're doing the same thing I just read to you. We're saying, here's this think with this data. If it's true for you, use it, if it isn't, don't listen to the podcast. And and so we're taking KRC for it, and we're saying, we want to help you with your karma, and and and just to mention, we can help you with your karma further, and we can deliver services to you. But the the most important point is is not I mean, we all have to survive and we have to pay the bills, yes. But the most important thing is is we're putting this out there. Aren't you interested? Aren't you it curious on the CDEI scale to do something about this and avail yourself of this technology and apply it to others and pay it forward? That's what this podcast is all about. Pay it forward.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and while we've been discussing this, so I'll just throw this in quickly, but while we've been discussing this, I've realized how much the tech actually applies to my question and how much the tech is actually based on the question. Yes, literally, because the tech will teach you that it it's it's there to open you up and put you on your path, not somebody else's, or get your path confused with somebody else's um path.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's it's right in front of you. The only the the only difference is Arthur and and this is is is is not a negative statement. Arthur knows what Arthur knows, Quentin knows what Quentin knows, Jonathan knows what Jonathan knows, LRH knows what LRH knows, and to some varying degree, all of us know where to find the tech or know somebody to ask to find the tech to go take it up with LRH. When somebody comes to me and says, well, blah blah blah blah blah. I don't like how you okay. Here's the reference. Take it up with LRH. Right.
SPEAKER_03:You go ahead and you you and call me back when you fix it.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. And that's and that's that's what you did. That's what that's what you did with the guy and the internet is you you said, nope, not not my condition, your condition. And it's your condition, and that's that's what you have to do, and that's the thing with with with a person's karma. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03:I I'll say this, and I did help because before I said that, I didn't give you the full story, but before I said that, because he said, Um, my internet's gonna and I don't know how to fix it, right? He said, and I don't know how to fix it. And I said, Google knows. I said, I said GPT knows.
SPEAKER_00:But if he's got no internet, heck could he access it?
SPEAKER_03:He had internet to call me. He had he had he had data to call me, so he got data to Google.
SPEAKER_04:Well, well, and in yeah, in America, here uh here in South Africa, you have to have call minutes and you have to have data minutes. And if you're not using your data to call on WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger or Skype or Telegram, well, okay, that that might be an issue. But but the thing is, is what you're saying is in the responsibility sense, to do something or do nothing.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Well, the other thing is is that the other thing is that when when when somebody comes to me, that this is just my viewpoint, many people can have a different viewpoint on this. But for me, when somebody comes to me for help, right, they're actually coming to me for help as opposed to me trying to, you know, volunteer or trying to do certain things like out, you know, along the fourth dynamic. If somebody's coming to me for help, I kind of position myself as a manager, right? I'm managing that that flow, managing those resources, start, change, stop, right? Ability. And so I immediately reference the credo of a good and skilled manager by LRH in the books, um, in the book of Assigned Intelligent New Science on Life. Uh, the credo of a good and skilled manager. And in here, one of these things he says is Um, number 10, he must constitute himself on the order of service to the group. So I have to constitute myself on the order of service to the group. So I constitute my I position myself to be of service to the group and the order of service to the group. Fair enough. Then number 11 says this he must permit himself to be served well as to his individual requirements. Isn't this good? He must permit himself to be served well as to his individual requirements, practicing an economy of his own efforts and enjoying certain comforts to the end of keeping high his rationale. So this is actually the creed of a good and skilled, a successful and skilled manager. So I have to practice, oh I'm sorry, permit myself to be served well. I think you talked about that earlier, Jonathan, when you talked about retainer and you know compensation and stuff like that. But it then it says practicing an economy of his own efforts. I don't have time for that.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And that that comes I don't have time for this. Yeah, it comes down to LRH's policy called completed staff work. And all he says to do here there is it's a form and it says situation data solution. As you're you are the executive, and a junior comes and says, uh, we have a fire, you know, uh there's there's there's something that needs to be put out, and maybe not not a real fire, and and I get that, you know. What what do you do? But we have this problem, okay. So what's the situation? Okay, that's brief. The data. Okay, what's the data behind it? What's the solution? This is my solution as your junior to handle the problem, and then the executive signs off on it, or he says, disapproved CSWP, complete staff work, please. Don't get don't don't give me the problem. Give me a solution to that problem because otherwise, and and when you're dealing with what's right and what's wrong, as far as you know, what what's the karma on helping somebody or what or or not helping somebody is you have to get information, and once you have that information, you can go, you know, I've always I've been I've been told uh I I take on cycles where angels fear to tread. I'm done with that. I'm done with that. I'm not gonna do it anymore. Because there's way more effort put into it that you you you you can't put your you you can't help those again. This comes back to that, you can't help those who help themselves because there wouldn't be this miasma of all of this confusion and problems and all of this stuff and insanity that you have to deal with. And yet, okay, do I really want to take that on? Is that pro-survival for me, or am I, you know, I'm trying to eat eat an elephant when all I need is a squirrel to survive? I I don't need all of that additional problem or that indigestion of dealing with somebody else's resultant karma that they created. I'm more than happy to help somebody, but only if they're willing to follow this particular line of policy andor tech. If you want to go in session and you want to fart around on the meter in between sessions, and I'm not saying that there's anybody that's doing this, they have in the past. You want to fart around on the meter, you want to talk to your ex-husband and have him reverse audit everything I took you in session for. Bye-bye. I'm not I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02:That's a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Right, that's a lot, yeah, a lot to take on because you can't get the water out of the boat because there's so much more water coming in, the boat won't float. And this is this is exactly the case where we're at, as far as you know, what what is true for you is true for you, what your karma is, is you can only help those who will help themselves. Otherwise, you are not assigning them a condition, you're taking it on, you're taking it on. Don't do it. That's terrible, don't do it, but you have to have the information. Now, the the only hole in that concept is if they don't tell you the truth.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, so so so yes, that that that could be that could be a thing, right? And all I'll say to that is I know my truth, right?
SPEAKER_04:You're known.
SPEAKER_03:And so so so so even in a lie, so let's let's say they're lying to me. Oh my gosh, I'm having a panic attack. Okay, what's going on? Um, yeah, um, I can't, I I can't, I just can't call anybody, I can't talk to anybody, I don't know what's going on. I can't reach out to anybody. I'm I'm just feeling, you know, and and so yes, I would try to respond to that person in the moment to get more information to figure out what's going on. But ultimately, this is the deal. When I look at myself as a skilled, successful and skilled manager, a good and skilled manager, I'm gonna move based on the best information possible. And I'm gonna make decisions based on the best information possible. And when I make when I get the information, I can make a better a better assessment. What do they say? You can't treat until you diagnose, right? You can't treat until you diagnose. And so I would like to diagnose this first. Talk to me about what's happening, what's going on. When I realize it's something that is below my pay grade, and I'm saying that tongue in cheek, I'm not saying literally have to pay me, but when I when I realize that's something that you can handle yourself if you felt so inclined to do so, then I would I would turn that over to you and I will give you back what you need. I'm I'm here to help. I am my brother's keeper, but to the degree I extow effort towards helping you is gonna be based on your potential value and how I see you showing up in the world. And so let's start there. How are you gonna show up with this? What is this for? What are you gonna be doing with this? What does this look like? And then I'll let you know whether I can help.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Start right. And then you have you know, part of that is the indicators. Do they show up on time? Do they answer, you know, text messages or emails? Is it is it three days, or is it three weeks, or is it three hours? Um, you know, these are these are all indicators, you know. No com means nothing good, LRH says, and that is so very, very true. Wow, yeah. No com means nothing good. Com lag is the index of indexes in dealing with people and their comma intertwined with yours, and that's why I try to answer every email that I get. And I have an Apple Watch, and I have an iPhone, and I have messaging on my computer on various com lines, and I try to respond from a speed of service viewpoint because calm lag is everything. Wow, hey, you I'm surprised you answered, you know, and they're expecting a day or two type of a thing. This is the world that we live in, and we improve through auditing and through training a person's calm lag and awareness level of the reality that they're in. And when we get people darkening our door, so to speak, and needing help, we have to look at those indicators of how they communicate, what they communicate about, what their situation is, and above all else, what our knowingness says about a situation with people, and that and I'm not trying to sound judgmental, but the thing is, is your karma is directly related to the spheres of influence that a person brings into them, uh intertwined with your own. Yes, the company you keep, the the cycles of action that you decide to take on, the information that you are exposed to, and this comes down to the data series. And I've said this before, and it has everything to do with everything that's going on in the world today. And I've said this in podcast after podcast after podcast. You have to have reliable sources, and you have to have a myriad number of sources. Scientology, independent Scientology, and Dianetics give you the tools to understand what a reliable source is, whether things are factual, how to think about logic. Take this information and have multiple sources and keep your own counsel, code of honor, code of a Scientologist, these types of things. Don't let anybody invalidate or evaluate for you. Know your tone scale and only do business, and I don't mean financially, either transactionally, emotionally, communicatively, actionably with those people that meet those requirements in order to keep your karma, your universe clean. This is by hard won experience from LRH. I didn't understand it so good, yeah for years, but it's factual, especially now, especially today. So this is what this is all about, and I'm glad Arthur brought this up as a podcast because it's important to understand that you can be pushed or you can hold your position. And LRH says the power the the definition of an OT is the ability to hold a position in space and also to get things done. But you can't get things done if you get distracted by people whose karma is on a completely different path in a sawtooth waveform as opposed to a sine wave, just to give you an idea. Triangles are curves. That's and that shows up on the meter, and FN is as a is a beautiful sine wave, and evil purpose is really sharp jagged, high amplitudinal triangles back and forth, switch and switch this direction, this valence, da da da da da da. So it all comes down to the company you keep, who do you choose to do business with emotionally or transactionally? That's your karma. And if you you you always go with your first knowingness is this this this person good? Is this something going on here? Let's pull the string, get more information, look at the chart of human ability, look at the tone scale, know your conditions, and know what condition to assign to something. That's what I have to say on it.
SPEAKER_00:And I love it. Interestingly, as a as a potential starting point for people listening to this, if they're um, and tell me if I'm wrong, guys, but um tr4 um through the comcourse, that would really apply to this. Um in a I mean, yes, the TR is designed for um auditing process, but in a real life situation, that would be a skill that would definitely keep you in alignment with your own path because it teaches you not to buy into these things um in such a way and stick to the program, so to speak, and in a personal situation, stick to your own program um while still being able to be still be able to acknowledge situations around you, but then also continue on your path. Um, considering everything is communication, like these these drills will definitely help you with that. And you can do that in the in the communication course. Yeah, it's it's just as a starting point.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a a beginner's course on communication. And I know everything we've talked about today through communication has to do with communication, is getting the the answer to your to your question in an auditing session is just as important to getting the answer to your question when you're having a conversation with somebody, being able to originate and say things that they can understand, being able to acknowledge things that other people understand, just getting the answer to your question and nothing else. TR3 and TR4 is handling all of the originations in the middle of it, and then still getting the person back on course of what the desired communication or communication cycle in the larger arc is. And if you can do that, go ahead, Arthur.
SPEAKER_00:Yep, and and even just recognizing the difference in originations as well, you know what's legitimate and what's not legitimate.
SPEAKER_04:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Which which going through that process is really tricky. Um and from my own personal experience, going through that, oh there were so many times I wanted to blow this course um out of frustration, but the more we practiced, um, it it really became really clear. I'm like, wow, like I've I've accepted so many non-originations without recognizing the difference. Right, you know, what's legitimate and what's not legitimate, right?
SPEAKER_04:And three hours later, shit, I can't get that time back. No, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:Or in some cases, it could be years for people, it could be months for people, depending on their situations. It could be a lifetime for some, right?
SPEAKER_04:Right, and you know, authenticity, and if the person where they're at on the tone scale, how do they handle communication? Look at the chart of human ability and go, okay, how did they handle this communication? What was their response? And go, oh, what's their viewpoint on children? What's their viewpoint on this? How do they handle that? And and then you go and then you home in on it and you go, Mmm, I didn't see that. But you have to have you have to know these tools, and it doesn't make you critical. There's a difference between critical thought and criticism, and in in in understanding that you have to look at okay, is this worth the beans that I'm putting in? Are because you know how many people don't. Don't take advice, they want to hear your advice, they want to be heard, they want to have a calm cycle because they want to outflow about their present time problems, their ARC breaks, their miswithles, or overs, their invals, their evals. They want they want to listen, but then when you give them the advice, they come back. A guy comes back a couple days later and says, My internet's out again. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And it and it doesn't and it doesn't stop and it doesn't change anything. Right. And it it is it's almost like what once you kind of get yourself on the hook of being their terminal or their source, you then become their source. And I think that I think that it's probably better to make to make them aware that they can find their own solutions and they can come up with their the solutions to their own problems, and that lets them become more empowered and takes you off the hook for being the solver, the solver in that situation. Now, don't get me wrong, you are being a solver by giving them the power to answer their own question and and find their own solutions. You are actually being a solver, but I'm not here to be your uh source in that sense, right?
SPEAKER_00:So you mean letting people respond? You mean letting people being responsible for their own karma?
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Well, um ultimately ultimately that's that's all you're doing is you know, in the in the big picture of things from my standpoint, okay. So you want to go up the bridge. All right. Um when do you want to start? And and Quentin, I'm not naming any names or anything like that. How many cycles have we been dealing with over the last oh nine months? When do you want to start? Yak. Multiple, multiple, multiple, yeah. But what about this? But what about that? What about the switch? Right. I mean, it literally feels like that, like they're coming from different directions. Two voice, you know, but the this and that, and then my cats, and the you know, and and I'm and I've seen them.
SPEAKER_03:Call me back when you fix it.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Right. Because I I got I got other people that need help that are willing to stay on this track and use this information and not do other practices and try and solve these problems and everything. Well, you know, I feel like I want to start. Okay, you want to start Saturday? Crickets. Yeah, that's unfortunate.
SPEAKER_00:It's the say word. It's the say word.
SPEAKER_04:Everybody's uh what's what's the say confront word, confront right, confront? It's a matter of confront, and you have to confront your karma mixed with their their karma and the paths that they're on, and and you've got a pure sine wave and they've got a sawtooth, and you put them together, and this you can do this on a synthesizer on your computer for free and download the software. You put those two together, you can get you get a completely different sound. You you take those two apart, you have two separate sounds. You're dealing in wavelengths in the physical universe. Well, you're you're dealing in wavelengths in the physical universe as a thing who creates energy. What kind of energy do you want? Pretty good cross. I I I really love this. So, in closing, um, I I hope this has gotten across and we've given enough uh parables and analogies and all of that stuff to what what what karma do you want to deal with, what's your karma and other people's karma and how they they intermix. Um and this turned out a lot better than than uh I could have ever hoped for. And um in closing, do you guys have anything you want to say?
SPEAKER_03:Help help help people who you know uh I'll I'll say it this way it was told to me by one of my spiritual teachers never help those who need it, only help those who deserve it. And I was told this back in God, probably 20 2005, 2006. Never help those who need it, only help those who deserve it. And what that means is that those who are going to be deserved means of of service, deserve means to be of service. So those who are going to take what you gave them and serve the greater whole. Take what you gave them and serve humanity, take what you gave them and and and serve all the more. So help those who deserve it and who is gonna take what you gave them and serve the uh the greater, and therefore you become more pandeterministic because you're working across the entire, across all the dynamics, uh, not just that one.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah, theta the solver, theta the problem. For sure. Arthur? Anything in closing?
SPEAKER_00:Um I'm just gonna stick with God helps those who help themselves, and I think use that as a as a guiding point to the decisions you make when it comes to um helping others as well. And in in the near future, look out for Quinton's new course, How to Be a Tough Motherfucker.
SPEAKER_03:Sign-ups coming up on November 1st.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, Lrh has a no drill, and that's that's you know, that's the Scientology ways how to say nope. Um you CSWP P complete staff work, please. And um, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I think I think that's the first time I've ever sworn on a podcast.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think it is too.
SPEAKER_00:Records are being broken everywhere.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So everybody, thanks for being here, and we hope you've uh been able to transpose this over to your own life and um have a better understanding of it from three completely different but uh in agreement viewpoints on independent Scientology and Dynetics and the application thereof. We'll see you for another podcast very likely tomorrow. Namaste, and we love you.
unknown:Bye. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02:Bye-bye.