#119 The Mother of All Sins?

Cooper & Cary have words about another deadly sin: pride. Along the way, they talk about how pride has embarrassed them personally, and Cooper explains his email habits and why he agreed to Cary's hare-brained plan to start a podcast together - to beat pride.

The word of the episode is "protean". That's "protean".

Watch a longer version of this on the C&C Channel on YouTube.

Episode 55 of C&C It's A Kind of Malick.

The Cooper & Cary Store is now open. Buy things you don't need to maintain a podcast you're not sure about. It's literally all win.

Transcript

[barry_cooper]: 0:00

Patrions, it

[james_cary]: 0:01

Helloll,

[barry_cooper]: 0:02

is I, and it is also he.

[james_cary]: 0:04

we should do. it is also me. We should do a clap for the audiophille as well, because the superior audio version really can't be surpassed.

[barry_cooper]: 0:13

Yeah, I think that's true.

[james_cary]: 0:13

If if I may say so,

[barry_cooper]: 0:15

All right.

[james_cary]: 0:16

we're a

[barry_cooper]: 0:16

Uh,

[james_cary]: 0:16

podcast and never forget it

[barry_cooper]: 0:18

that's right. we know'. going to lose touch with our roots

[james_cary]: 0:22

with our roots, our

[barry_cooper]: 0:22

Ag.

[james_cary]: 0:23

audio roots.

[barry_cooper]: 0:24

Yeah, all

[james_cary]: 0:25

We going to clap.

[barry_cooper]: 0:25

right, three, three, two, One.

[james_cary]: 0:30

It's like we're in the same room and soon we will be.

[barry_cooper]: 0:34

that's the dream. isn't it? Yes, when we will actually be in the same room And I haven't yet posted on Disiscord about this, but I might just let people know where we are on the Friday for a a window, just because anybody is nearby fancies grabbing a beverage or something. The Friday of that first week.

[james_cary]: 0:49

Are we talking in Lewis with the burning Crosses?

[barry_cooper]: 0:52

Yeah, exactly, and then we could all go and see the burning crosses. later. It's not as bad as it sounds. everyone. these are kind of fun burning crosses on They that bring the family burning crosses. It's all quite jolly.

[james_cary]: 1:04

Yeah, So in in the town of Lewis, Uh, in south of England, there is Guyfolk's night and we've done an episode on Guyfolk's night, haven't we? But we explain, uh, the the, the, uh, villulent anti catholicism of most of Uh Britain's recent history,

[barry_cooper]: 1:22

right.

[james_cary]: 1:23

and Um, So in sixteen o five, Guy fork tried to blow up Parliament. I mean there were others, and so every November the fifth people burn guys, which is like a basically a scarecrow, Um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:37

Hm. not guys, guys.

[james_cary]: 1:37

but they also burn effigies of the pope, Um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:41

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:41

and other hate figures in Lewis, near Eastbourne, where we are going to converge on the fifth of November. We. we. We fixed the date, didn't we? At the fifth November, and

[barry_cooper]: 1:50

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:51

then our mutual friend Glens Griivener, said, Hey guys, how do we feel about going to Lewis for the night?

[barry_cooper]: 1:58

it's a day after my fiftieth birth. They. so, What better way to celebrate than watching an effigy of the Pope being burned.

[james_cary]: 2:04

And I have just turned forty six,

[barry_cooper]: 2:07

That's good.

[james_cary]: 2:08

and we're both equally threatened by Nate Morgan Lock, who is way way way younger than both of us, But

[barry_cooper]: 2:13

He's like ten years younger than me. I think I keep forgetting that he's extremely young. He will be also there at the

[james_cary]: 2:15

we, we don't discuss him.

[barry_cooper]: 2:20

burning, so um, there's another incentive for you if you are if you're around. Um, so we're talking about pride. Thankfully, we've got that nobled, haven't we? James? ha, ha.

[james_cary]: 2:33

Eh, let's get. Let's get those out the way early.

[barry_cooper]: 2:35

let's get those out yet.

[james_cary]: 2:38

This is going to be of an old school episode because, in a way I feel like I've got a bit of a bag of thoughts in my head

[barry_cooper]: 2:45

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 2:45

that might be uh sprung from this, and that you've

[barry_cooper]: 2:48

hm,

[james_cary]: 2:49

obviously done proper preparation, as is your want.

[barry_cooper]: 2:51

Mm,

[james_cary]: 2:53

But I don't know. I think there are loads of las of facests to pride. Is this? is this the last of the deadly sins? Have we done all seven?

[barry_cooper]: 3:00

I've got a feeling we've We've missed one somewhere, but I can't think what it was. Did we do? We did sloth, did we?

[james_cary]: 3:07

I'm not sure we did. Actually,

[barry_cooper]: 3:08

I'm not sure if he did sloth or gluckney, but maybe we did,

[james_cary]: 3:12

we did gluttony.

[barry_cooper]: 3:12

But hey, answers on a postcard,

[james_cary]: 3:14

Maybe we didn't.

[barry_cooper]: 3:14

or in the discord. let us snow. Um, and we will attempt to uh, make sure that we cover all the deadly sins for you, So you don't have to,

[james_cary]: 3:23

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 3:23

Um

[james_cary]: 3:24

well, we're not doing a Doug Wilson herartology, Uh, going through all of.

[barry_cooper]: 3:27

am Mariology, That's the bit of that podcast that I don't. I find that a bit dry. I. I,

[james_cary]: 3:33

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 3:34

I admire the fact that he does it, but I, it's a funny thing. I think he's a much better writer than he is a a speaker. Is it just me

[james_cary]: 3:43

Yeah, I think that's probably right. So we are referring to Doug Wilson

[barry_cooper]: 3:47

who shall not be named? Yeah,

[james_cary]: 3:47

and his plotcast, Which, Um, so he iss always interesting. First first off on the podcast And then he does his New Testament survey of words for sin, and he has done over two hundred of them, or sort of sins, types of sin, and that kind of stuff, And it's a little bit of a quick. Let's just skip through this and get to the book review. So, um,

[barry_cooper]: 4:10

Yeah, yeah, but a Bu, brilliant writer. and um, yeah, continue to be.

[james_cary]: 4:14

I like his videos be cause he's right. He's reading out his blogs.

[barry_cooper]: 4:18

Yes, he's also done. Have you seen his ones about Abraham Piper, y Abraham

[james_cary]: 4:22

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 4:22

Piyper, son of John Piper, who is a a huge chick Tok star. I think he's got sort of a couple a million followers something like that. And so now Doug Wilson does these Youtube videos, basically responding reaction videos to Uh, Abraham's videos and they are. Yeah, they're They're interesting. they're They're pretty direct. It's a bit like watching a a sort of a cheetah taking down an antelope on the Sragety, isn't it? don't you think?

[james_cary]: 4:47

there's a weirdness to it, though,

[barry_cooper]: 4:49

Yeah?

[james_cary]: 4:49

in that he knows John Piper and John

[barry_cooper]: 4:53

right. yeah,

[james_cary]: 4:53

Piper must be, must be absolutely mortified at his son,

[barry_cooper]: 4:58

hm, Hm.

[james_cary]: 5:00

and so kind of taking down. This guy just feels a bit like you know. I mean, anything is going to accuse John Piper of and Doug Wilson as being friends, But

[barry_cooper]: 5:10

Well, they sort of are, though, aren't theycause He's invited he

[james_cary]: 5:12

kind of,

[barry_cooper]: 5:13

invited him for for conferences. he' spoken. He's also publicly rebuked him for his use of satire, so that again is an interesting wrinkle when you see

[james_cary]: 5:21

I think there is. I think there is a lot of mutual respect.

[barry_cooper]: 5:21

him go after Abraham. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 5:25

Um, rather, but I say, I don't think their friends, as to say, Piper extended a

[barry_cooper]: 5:30

well, nobody admits to being friends, right ti with Douglas Wilson, That you

[james_cary]: 5:30

fairly sturdy olive branch,

[barry_cooper]: 5:34

just don't do that, you know, and not if you want to keep your job. So we only do it. We only do it on here because you know nobody listens to us, so it's fine, but

[james_cary]: 5:44

reassuringly small audiences. Um. but more, what are they? What do they call it in the Spinal Tap

[barry_cooper]: 5:46

yes, that's right.

[james_cary]: 5:52

About smaller audiences, more specialized or something like that? Isn't it smaller?

[barry_cooper]: 5:58

I need

[james_cary]: 5:58

Um,

[barry_cooper]: 5:58

to watch that again. It's been long that ought. to be like a yearly watch for me, but

[james_cary]: 6:02

yeah, yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 6:03

I haven't seen it for like five six years.

[james_cary]: 6:04

it. G. It yields yields fresh fruit every time. Although the more you watch it, the more you realize the last twenty minutes aren't that good.

[barry_cooper]: 6:11

Really, That's interesting the last twenty minutes. Okay,

[james_cary]: 6:14

I think it loses its way after an hour. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 6:18

right,

[james_cary]: 6:19

when? when? when the reunion then happens, and stuff well at the bi, at the very

[barry_cooper]: 6:21

is that because they? they're trying to do plot, And so theyre having to

[james_cary]: 6:23

end where he says

[barry_cooper]: 6:25

forget the jokes a bit.

[james_cary]: 6:27

a bit. Yeah, and but the bit where he says, I envy us. I, you know he,

[barry_cooper]: 6:32

Yeah, yes,

[james_cary]: 6:35

Um, I get to do my uh, rock opera Jack the Ripper, uh, called Naughty Jack or something like that. Esus, all, see one. No, No, don't do that. Um, this is Spinal Tap, is one of the finest comedy films, and any one my age or similar who writes comedy professionally When you ask them what's your favorite movie? What's the funniest movie

[barry_cooper]: 7:00

H.

[james_cary]: 7:00

it's like? Apart from Spinal Tap, Obviously, while

[barry_cooper]: 7:04

right.

[james_cary]: 7:04

obviously, Um, And and then it's what your second choice be, Cause that's functionally your first

[barry_cooper]: 7:09

Yes,

[james_cary]: 7:09

choice. Because every one Jesus spled out,

[barry_cooper]: 7:12

do you know it's funny? I had a sort of Ajck, the rip of the musical feeling. Watching that Hill Song documentary. James

[james_cary]: 7:17

Oh,

[barry_cooper]: 7:18

sent me a link to which will put in the show notes. Probably, which is a storyvill, B, B C documentary about Hill Song And there's a bit in it where they're doing Jesus the Musical. I figure what is called Jesus the rock opera and it's like, Uh, they do a song about Mary Magdalena to the tune of the Macna, as every bit as bad as that sounds at.

[james_cary]: 7:45

the irony is, there were some people in that production though who is so genuinely cool. It

[barry_cooper]: 7:52

Yeah, they got away with it

[james_cary]: 7:52

wasn' an awful. But the moment he said, I'm going for this part in this rock opera about Jesus. I, I really cringe. I thought

[barry_cooper]: 8:00

horrible.

[james_cary]: 8:00

Hills Song are always achingly cool. but even they are going to struggle to make this cool. Surely,

[barry_cooper]: 8:07

I'm just not sure that they are a kingly Co. I think If you're going to be, you've got to

[james_cary]: 8:12

the slick.

[barry_cooper]: 8:12

really be on the slick. Certainly, um, but it's that thing of you. Knowd is or did that routine about fashion being a circle. It is like. Oh, it, getting cooler and cool and cool. cool. not cool anymore. You know. it's just like just getting on that sort of access. And

[james_cary]: 8:26

Yes, right, hello, yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 8:30

and they're doing. They've so heavily committed to Thenne, jeans and the wininkle picker shoes and the leather jackets and the asymmetrical haircuts that you've got to be so on it all the time, Because that that's on a knifedge, isn't it that sort of fashion? I don't think people really do that anymore. I mean a lot of the documentary was made like five years ago it than it shows. I think

[james_cary]: 8:53

yes, possibly, I mean, let we should just talk about that because I don't want to talk about it on the podcast for very long,

[barry_cooper]: 8:57

right,

[james_cary]: 8:57

but just in terms of, I watch that documentary, so it's ninety minutes. It's probably. I don't know if it's available in the U. S, um, on other things other than the I player. So it's It's on

[barry_cooper]: 9:08

if you've got a Vpn, you can watch it.

[james_cary]: 9:11

if you go a v, p. N, and pretend you're in the U. K,

[barry_cooper]: 9:13

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 9:14

and you pay your license fee.

[barry_cooper]: 9:15

Obviously, you've got to have a Licns for you. You've got to pay for a license

[james_cary]: 9:17

Yes, that's right. Yeah, Yes, that's right. Which Barry has done. Um, the

[barry_cooper]: 9:18

here as everyone. My dad, so is a household one When I was over there last time,

[james_cary]: 9:26

okay,

[barry_cooper]: 9:27

mean less

[james_cary]: 9:29

All right.

[barry_cooper]: 9:29

since Wend. Yeah, let, yeah,

[james_cary]: 9:31

Let's let's move on from that. And but the thing is, whenever the B B C, and admittedly this is an independent company making this program. But whenever the B b C cover Christianity of any sort,

[barry_cooper]: 9:41

H,

[james_cary]: 9:41

I'm already thinking they are not equipped to do this in anything like a fair or reasonable

[barry_cooper]: 9:46

right, right, yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 9:46

way. They made a documentary about Christians against poverty, where they basically showed brigrudgingly that they do a pretty good job of counselling people out of debt. But here's the guy who runs Christians against poverty. Here he is in a charismatic worship service. Look how christian he is. He's really Christian, isn't he? He's really really Christian. Christians. Gus poverty are really Christian. Do you really want them to help youcause? look at how christian they are. So it was a hatchet job. In terms of so, I, I thought it was a horrid piece of work. and although I think Cat want didn't didn't see it quite that way, they, they didn't feel they'd been done over. But I just thought, or I think you've been very subtly made to look foolish in front of the cool, the cool kids.

[barry_cooper]: 10:33

but that's the basic. A lot of the criticism implied and otherwise in that documentary On Hills Song was basically. Oh, look how Christian they are. I mean so much of it was. I mean, I'm not saying

[james_cary]: 10:45

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 10:45

there weren't serious things that were said. there were, but a lot of it was all a little bit creepy again. It was therison full of Mars Hill. Let's put a creepy sound beed underneath it. and all now suddenly a worship surface. or it looks like a it, because people

[james_cary]: 10:59

yeah, yeah.

[barry_cooper]: 11:00

got their arms in the air and looking.

[james_cary]: 11:02

Well, and that's why? And and I mentioned that Christians against poverty, Doc, just because I need A. Whenever the B B C then go we. We're doing an expose of Hills song. I have to go. Oh yes, but bear in mind how you'd feel about the B B C doing an exposate of Christians that you actually like and respect, So just stick that filter on when you watch the hills sog dog.

[barry_cooper]: 11:24

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 11:25

So, in some ways that Hills Song Dock didn't strike me as a hatchet job in,

[barry_cooper]: 11:29

it was an

[james_cary]: 11:30

but it equally

[barry_cooper]: 11:30

attempted one. In some ways, I think

[james_cary]: 11:32

it was. It was unflattering. Um, but also it fundamentally didn't surprise me. And I thought you know the allegations of Brian Houston's dad and all that kind of stuff. I thought they let them off pretty lightly. Actually, given what they should have said, and what who knew what when that felt like a bit of it felt like the documentary should have been kind of all about that,

[barry_cooper]: 11:56

right, and the car lent

[james_cary]: 11:57

but

[barry_cooper]: 11:57

stuff. They didn't dwell on either,

[james_cary]: 12:00

no,

[barry_cooper]: 12:01

which was surprising. Um,

[james_cary]: 12:03

but

[barry_cooper]: 12:04

and they.

[james_cary]: 12:04

maybe it hadn't fully blown itself out after they'd made it. But given that it was any put out relatively recently, Youd think they'd have

[barry_cooper]: 12:10

Oh, I think Yeah, I think it's been around a while. I. I'm surprised they didn't go go more into that. They seem to be more interested in. It's a money making operation, which is a fair point. I mean the sneakers preachers and sneakers intram account.

[james_cary]: 12:25

Yeah.

[barry_cooper]: 12:25

Is you point? well taken. I think

[james_cary]: 12:29

So anyway, when we

[barry_cooper]: 12:30

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 12:30

talk about, Uh, we might have got the hills on dock on the episode which we haven't started yet, but we should probably start it. shouldn't we burry?

[barry_cooper]: 12:36

shall we? I think it might be you to start this one.

[james_cary]: 12:38

Let's do this thing. Is it me to start

[barry_cooper]: 12:40

Should we do? we need to do another clap to help us, Marck. Should we do? we need to do another clap to help us, Marck. The actual,

[james_cary]: 12:45

nud? Ah, yeah, it won won't do any harm.

[barry_cooper]: 12:47

Yeah, three two one.

[james_cary]: 12:53

Here we go. welcome to Cooper and Carrie. Have words. I am the Carey. I am here in the U. K, and over there in Uh. Florida is a fellow Brit who is making his way in floridian life, married to an American, and that is why he resides in Florida. Barry Couper, Helled you, Barry.

[barry_cooper]: 13:14

Hello, James Sluvey, to see you. And what are we talking about on this particular episode?

[james_cary]: 13:20

We do not waggle on the tea as new listeners or viewers. If you're watching us on Youtube,

[barry_cooper]: 13:24

That's right

[james_cary]: 13:24

Uh will know, and we tend to talk about things from a a Christian reform point of view, Um, and hopefully the way that some people find engaging we are

[barry_cooper]: 13:35

from a safe distance of four thousand miles apart. That's the big thing that

[james_cary]: 13:35

talking. Y. Yes, said there, there can be no fyisttickuff. Not that there are any a huge

[barry_cooper]: 13:39

that we do

[james_cary]: 13:43

disagreement, although uh, we probably differ on a few things like baptism and bishops, Uh, and I say that I say that as a recently reelected member of the General

[barry_cooper]: 13:49

and Arrested Development.

[james_cary]: 13:54

synonde of the Church of England,

[barry_cooper]: 13:56

Congratulations to you. that's wonderful.

[james_cary]: 13:56

Uh, so high fiives all round we this week are talking about a deadly sin. We have covered other deadly sins in the previous previous episodes. If you go grubbing around on our website Coper Dot Com, and you can listen to that, you can get the last thirty episodes for free and then join us on Patrion, you can get cataloge access. We talking about pride. What is the deadly sin of pride? How would you define it though, As I was thinking about it the other day Ba, I was thinking Wow, this is such a big general sin and yet it's different from the others. How would

[barry_cooper]: 14:37

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 14:37

you define it

[barry_cooper]: 14:38

Augustine, famously dec. It is a bit good asne when use the adverb Famously, Because usually that's the precurs for somebodyly saying something that you go. Oh, I didn't know that anything. Was it famous? but yeah, I feel really stupid. anyway. let's just say that

[james_cary]: 14:49

And now I feel like an idiot.

[barry_cooper]: 14:52

Augustine said that a pride is

[james_cary]: 14:55

Famous Augustine said

[barry_cooper]: 14:55

the mother. The famous Augustine famously said that pride is famously the mother of all sins. That was his blind. The idea being that it sort of underlies everything else, and you could trace everything back to pride. Think there's something in that cause You know genes is three. Maybe we will get into a bid. lots of pridy stuff going in there. But what is pride? I mean. I. I' been interested to get your definition. it. I, as I thought about it, I, my wild stab at this'. what we do on this show, My wild stab at a definition on pride is that it

[james_cary]: 15:25

Well, while stabbing isn't one of the other deadly things, isn't it?

[barry_cooper]: 15:28

will that be. But Ki,

[james_cary]: 15:29

number eight

[barry_cooper]: 15:29

killing is wild Stabbing is something that you shouldn't do. That's all you can take that to the bank.

[james_cary]: 15:35

frowned upon.

[barry_cooper]: 15:36

Yeah, this doesn't constitute legaldvice, but it wouldn't hurt you to follow that advice. Any fa, I. I would say that it is that pride is any failure to recognize our complete and utter dependence on God. I think that's prize, and I realized that's quite a broad definition, but I think that's where it starts. I think it's we think that we're autonomous, self sustaining self made people. I think that's the essence of pride, and usually I, and just as say, if it wasn't already obvious, I think this is completely ubiquitous. I think everybody is basically proud. Um, but I think most people think well, sure, you know, I've been given certain things a birth. Uh, you know certain native gifts and so on. But then what I do with that? Well, the credit for that goes to mecause. I haveve taken those things and I've kind of run with them and I'm I'm doing that, But actually that's that's not true. I mean who enables you to not only have the gifts you have, but then have the energy and the motivation to use them. Where does that come from? We we know as believe is that you know God could in an instant take away our ability to breathe. So he, you know, he sustains everything, Uh, including what we laughingly call our own effort. Um, and it's funny, I did a. I did a sermon on Daniel for a little warbck on Neby Kza, And that's what really got me thinking about this. Because you think about it, you know we. We didn't choose what country we would be born into to whom we would be born. What century or decade we'd be born. In what D N A? We would have. what gender what ethnicity? So it's utterly comic to say, I'm a self made person. It's just a completely ludicrous claim to make, And yet it feels so true. I think instinctively to most of us. Um, uh, there was. Um. I was going through a an airport in Detroit a while back and there was a guy like a supers stacked bodyuilder kind of guy right in front of me And he was wearing this t shirt that said built not born, And apparently that's like a brand. So you know he's essentially saying right, You see these muscles. Yep, it's all me. This is all I've made this. Nobody else did it for me and you think? well, really, I mean, did for a start, Did you determine how tall you'd be? you, didn't he? didn't make yourself five foot seven, Did you? and side by James is usually the shorter guys. that of the body builder? Isn't it? as if making yourself wider is somehow going to make you look taller? But anyway, I digress. My point is it's a fundamental presupposition that we have about ourselves that we are self made people and we are wrong. And if we just accept that, we'd hope be a lot less proud, we're going to get to pall in first grin this later. But I think he that he realzed that you know, I worked harder than all of you. But it wasn't me that was doing its got grace in me. So I think that's my stabb, a very long, um brambly definition of pride, which is a failure to recognize our complete dependence on God for everything. I don't know. what. What do you think,

[james_cary]: 18:49

I think that's a pretty good opening, Sal. I, really. I. I'm not sure. I've got much to add. I think going back to Genesis, I think that's where Augustine is probably on to something. It does feel like this is the one sin that that rules them all, Isn't it? You

[barry_cooper]: 19:04

Yes,

[james_cary]: 19:04

could probably trace the other six deadly sins. Not that, Just to say, we've said, In other episodes, these are not Biblical categories. It's not in the Bible that there are seven type types of sin.

[barry_cooper]: 19:15

H,

[james_cary]: 19:16

The Bible has loads more. you

[barry_cooper]: 19:17

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 19:18

know. The The Bible really diagnoses sin in incredibly creative and detailed ways. and and also has lots of working illustrations, both imaginary and true,

[barry_cooper]: 19:28

Yes, yeah,

[james_cary]: 19:29

Uh, of all kinds of terrible things that we do to each other. Um. So yeah, but I think it is that fundamental lack of understanding about who you are and who God is,

[barry_cooper]: 19:42

H,

[james_cary]: 19:43

Um. And if the gospel can be summarized in three words, which you can't, but let's say that it can.

[barry_cooper]: 19:47

let's have a stabb at it.

[james_cary]: 19:49

Jesus is Lord, three words. That's the gospel.

[barry_cooper]: 19:53

Hm.

[james_cary]: 19:53

Um, and I always think I've recently started, think to myself. Now you know, if we could really bore the gospel down to one thing, I always think to myself. But why do you need to do that? We don't need.

[barry_cooper]: 20:03

spoken like a true conservative evangelical yet.

[james_cary]: 20:05

We don't know what it will. But though even jackals do it, too,

[barry_cooper]: 20:08

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[james_cary]: 20:09

but there, as I'd say, because what? Yeah, what the gospel's really about is

[barry_cooper]: 20:12

Yeah, the hard of it is. Yeah. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 20:12

it's like we're not. We're not required to say what the heart of it is because we've been given a really long book

[barry_cooper]: 20:20

that's right.

[james_cary]: 20:21

um with with confusing

[barry_cooper]: 20:22

Yeah. yeah.

[james_cary]: 20:23

stories and odd beginnings and endings and proverbs that say this is the case and another properb that says this is not the case.

[barry_cooper]: 20:31

yeah. yeah.

[james_cary]: 20:32

And do you go? And they're both right and you know in your heart they're both righting,

[barry_cooper]: 20:35

it's like the old joke about speed reading. I just don't Sp. read. I just finished War and Peace. It's about Russia. you know it's like.

[james_cary]: 20:43

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 20:44

No, it's a long book for a reason like you. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 20:46

Yeah, it's about a thousand pages long.

[barry_cooper]: 20:48

yeah,

[james_cary]: 20:48

Um. But if Jesus is Lord, so you know,

[barry_cooper]: 20:53

right

[james_cary]: 20:53

Unhelpful, a boy, distillation of gospel, then pride is basically saying Yeah, but I'm all kind of lord.

[barry_cooper]: 20:56

than we are. Yeah.

[james_cary]: 21:03

Um, or it's like Jesus isn't quite Lord, or Jesus is pleased to have me,

[barry_cooper]: 21:08

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 21:08

and so at the heart of of the rebellion of Adam and Eve is, I'd like it that. what? what they're doing if we go all James B Jordan on this, which

[barry_cooper]: 21:18

right.

[james_cary]: 21:18

I'm not sure. it's wise to go that Jordan this early, but let's try it.

[barry_cooper]: 21:22

yeah, Car's gone very

[james_cary]: 21:23

Um,

[barry_cooper]: 21:23

early in this episode. Okay, let's say he does.

[james_cary]: 21:26

he's um. he. he's a big thing. he. He talks a lot about how we are. um, uh, the the four Faces and youve got priests.

[barry_cooper]: 21:36

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 21:36

You've got a propher, kings, and you've got prophets. And what we keep doing is reaching for the next thing ahead of time. So we would have been allowed to eat from the knowledge of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Once we had learned obedience, But we didn't want to wait. So we, we reached for for for knowledge of good and evil, Um before head of t, but ahead of time, Um, and we, we justough to keep doing that. And you see how everyone's grasping for the for the next thing, And I think that comes from impatience. but that impatient comes from. I deserve to be on to the next phase. Uh, type, Um,

[barry_cooper]: 22:14

Yes, Yes,

[james_cary]: 22:14

I need to go through to next thing.

[barry_cooper]: 22:16

I think that's it.

[james_cary]: 22:16

I've got. I've got this sorted. you know,

[barry_cooper]: 22:20

Yeah, yeah, it's like as funny, isn't it? We tend to think of proud people as over achievers. you know that they. They take pride in all the things theyve achieved all the gifts they have, but I think underchievers are are just as vulnerable to pride because both types of proud person. The essence of it is what you're saying. I'm owed something, Um, respect or agreement or glory or success or approval or acceptance or whatever it is. So pride says I deserve what I have, but pride also says I deserve what I don't have. Um, so I think that's that there's something in that.

[james_cary]: 22:59

it's status, isn't it? it's it's it's. it's status, uh problems, is't it? it's

[barry_cooper]: 22:59

The other thing, Yeah,

[james_cary]: 23:05

self declaration. It's I mean, in a way, is this the besetting Scin of the twenty firstth century?

[barry_cooper]: 23:10

hm,

[james_cary]: 23:10

I? I saw a tweet the other day. In fact, it was yesterday I? I saw a tweet the other day. In fact, it was yesterday and it was I. I can't remember exactly what it was. but it was someone saying. Don't let anyone define who you are. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 23:23

yes, right,

[james_cary]: 23:24

which is like. Well, I mean that that that's pretty fundamental. isn't it is that we are image bear ass. We are, you know, I am, but also I am a dad. I'm a uh, a, a brother. I'm a son. uh, I'm a Christian. uh, I'm

[barry_cooper]: 23:41

Hm. I thought you were singing the first verse of staying alive there for a minute. good, but ki. yeah,

[james_cary]: 23:48

um. I. I'm also the egg man. I don't know if you knew that. Uh,

[barry_cooper]: 23:52

I'm the warest, so

[james_cary]: 23:53

that's that's where I was really. Yes, exactly.

[barry_cooper]: 23:54

yeah,

[james_cary]: 23:55

That's why I was really going with that. I mean, I've lost a lot of weight since then, but um,

[barry_cooper]: 23:58

so with a beard, though,

[james_cary]: 23:58

but the right. but yeah, it's your status is is given to you,

[barry_cooper]: 24:09

yeah,

[james_cary]: 24:09

and this idea that we can essentially define ourselves strikes me as ultate and this idea that we can essentially define ourselves strikes me as ultate fundamental self defining pride, doesn't it is? that is that pride? fundamental self defining pride, doesn't it is? that is that pride?

[barry_cooper]: 24:20

yes, I, I think you're right. I think it is, and also, I've never undersstood that the idea of defining yourself. you define you, which is very much a sort of a Disney thing as well, and I, I've always thought there's

[james_cary]: 24:36

Oh, and also bugs him alone. Obviously, I mean

[barry_cooper]: 24:39

I've not seen that

[james_cary]: 24:40

those kids. where are they now? Cause they could have been anything that they want it to be

[barry_cooper]: 24:43

right, right, I've is it. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 24:46

a good song. Actually, Isn' there. We could have been anything that we want it to be that

[barry_cooper]: 24:51

yeah, well, that's the problem you see is taking your life philosophy from. Uh. You know that film is that the one that? Um? what's the name? got a big break in when she was a child actor.

[james_cary]: 24:59

Jodye Foster. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 25:00

Jody Foster, That's it

[james_cary]: 25:02

yeah, yeah, yeah.

[barry_cooper]: 25:02

anyway. Side bar, Um, I, I've never understood it. you know. I'm just true to myself. Well, W, which self what

[james_cary]: 25:12

stop it.

[barry_cooper]: 25:12

you talk? What you? Yeah, stop

[james_cary]: 25:14

stopping. true to yourself. you're terrible.

[barry_cooper]: 25:15

that, first of all, first of, we'll stop that. Secondly, which self are we talking about? I mean, the self is prote, and that could be the word for the episode Protean. The is it? Are we talking about the self? The one before I've had coffee or after? I mean what or the one tomorrow yesterday. I, I don't know who I. I. I change when I'm with different people. I don't know if it's just just me, but I don't know what that means to be true to myself. Other than if someone says to me you, you just be true to yourself. That's like asking the dictionary to write itself or something. It just is it you need something outside yourself to to do that. One of the thing I wanted to talk about before we move on from sort definitions is, I think there's another way to think of pride, and this is maybe a bit count. intuitive, Is that pride is, I think, an overdeveloped consciousness of self. So if humility is self forgetfulness, which I think it is, and hopefully we willll get to that, then pride, I think is a sort of constant self remembrance or self consciousness, And there is there is a very famous and rather hackney definition of Um. pride, which probably speaks to this, but might maybe bears repeating. You know pride is what is it? Um. humility is not thinking less of myself. It's e. it's thinking of myself Less you know that thing. I think there is something in that. Uh, that pride is is just thinks about itself all the time to the extent that even people who say I hate myself. I hate myself. I hate myself. I hate myself. I want to say I know what you mean, but I don't really believe you because you're thinking about yourself so much. That's there's something it there is that's pride, isn't it? When that's happening? I know we don't usually think of that as pride, but I think there's something essentially prideful about that sort of self focused mindset

[james_cary]: 27:20

Well, it reminds me you were talking there of screw letters,

[barry_cooper]: 27:25

Yes,

[james_cary]: 27:26

where Leus, as usual nails it.

[barry_cooper]: 27:30

right,

[james_cary]: 27:31

So for those who are unaware of the screwt letters, they are by C. Lewis, and they are letters from a senior Devil to a junior devil, and the junior Devil is basically trying to get some Bos out to slip up and make mistakes and drift away from the faith. And this is lovely bit where the senior Devil advises the junior Devil by saying Your patient has become humble. Have you drawn his attention to that fact? All virtues are less formidable to to once the man is aware that he has them,

[barry_cooper]: 28:01

yes,

[james_cary]: 28:02

But this is especially true of humility. Catch him at the moment when he is really poor in spirit, and smuggle into his mind the gratifying reflection. by Jove. I'm being humble and almost immediately pride. pride at his own humility will appear if he awakes to the danger and tries to smother this new form of pride. Make him proud of his attempt, and so on through as many stages as you please. But don't try this too long for fear that you may awaken his sense of humor and proportion, in which case he will merely laugh at you and go to bed

[barry_cooper]: 28:33

Oh, that's good. It's very interesting

[james_cary]: 28:35

strong, isn't it?

[barry_cooper]: 28:35

that he lands with sense of humor as well, isn't it? that's an underrated weapon against the devil, Martin Luther really understood this? You know the idea of laughing at the devil. Um, anyway, that another side, Bob, but that is brilliant. Um, is's good, isn't he Clive? He's written a lot

[james_cary]: 28:51

Yeah?

[barry_cooper]: 28:51

of good things. Don't you think

[james_cary]: 28:53

Yes, that's right.

[barry_cooper]: 28:53

I think he's under? He's underrated, isnt they in reform circles? Sears, Les.

[james_cary]: 28:57

Well, in English circles, he certainly is. I don't think people realize is he. Is

[barry_cooper]: 29:01

No,

[james_cary]: 29:02

he the narner guy?

[barry_cooper]: 29:03

Yeah, exactly,

[james_cary]: 29:04

Y, yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 29:05

people are very snoopy about him, But again, it's because he's a Christian. I mean it really is just because he's a Christian because he's clearly a genius. Um, I was going to ask you, then James. let's get personal here. Let's land the plain at personal airport, right, which is just west of houndsl.

[james_cary]: 29:24

Mhm,

[barry_cooper]: 29:24

Um. How does pride manifest itself in you? I should say up front that

[james_cary]: 29:29

Whilst I'm waiting for my luggage, Is that right?

[barry_cooper]: 29:32

Well, that's a good one. I, I should say, though that, the weird thing about pride, maybe unlike other sins, is that it's really easy to see in other people, really hard to see in yourself. like when whene you have a Bible study and you're doing prayer requests at the end? Have you ever ever heard somebody say y, I'd really like prayer for my pride. I'm really proud you get. People would sooner admit to having a problem with pornography than they would

[james_cary]: 29:59

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 30:00

saying I'm really proud.

[james_cary]: 30:02

I'm considering an affair with the neighbor.

[barry_cooper]: 30:04

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 30:06

Um, then say, I think it may be. I don't know. It's just it feels like

[barry_cooper]: 30:11

Maybe you just don't spot it

[james_cary]: 30:11

it's only recently, actually that I've thought myself about praying to be more holy. I know that sounds crazy. but just thinking I am allowed to pray for godliness And it's

[barry_cooper]: 30:22

right.

[james_cary]: 30:22

not something. I'm praying for God's mission. I'm praying for individual people. I'm praying and pray for their godiness. Actually, I'm not praying for my own, but I have recently been trying to get into the habit of praying for my own

[barry_cooper]: 30:32

I've been praying for your godliness. All right, You'll find your caveat here.

[james_cary]: 30:33

actual godliness. Thank you

[barry_cooper]: 30:36

It's just an obvious thing to pray.

[james_cary]: 30:36

it it. I have to say, it's working a treat.

[barry_cooper]: 30:39

Yes, I could see.

[james_cary]: 30:40

I mean, I know you are praying about my humility, but those prayers have paid off. Um.

[barry_cooper]: 30:44

No. I'm delighted to see it. Glad I'm not wasting my time.

[james_cary]: 30:48

if we're talking about besetting sins, uh, from which we struggle.

[barry_cooper]: 30:51

Are you just distracting you, distracting people from the question of Okay.

[james_cary]: 30:53

No, I'm about to. I've look. you've landed the plane and

[barry_cooper]: 30:57

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 30:57

um, I'm I'm having a an existential crisis at the airport as as many do. Saly.

[barry_cooper]: 31:02

as you're waiting for you, you' waiting for your luggage to come round

[james_cary]: 31:05

Yes, the luggage is coming and it's some.

[barry_cooper]: 31:07

you, considering your life choices,

[james_cary]: 31:08

Um, I think my, I have a status problem whereby I like to elevate. I think it's part. See already. I'm trying to let myself off so I'm not going to do that.

[barry_cooper]: 31:21

right, Dont do that.

[james_cary]: 31:22

I'm always trying to make connections with people via other people, so that it's like, Oh, I kind of already know you 'cause we'd both know that person. or do you know this person of that

[barry_cooper]: 31:31

Got

[james_cary]: 31:32

person? So one of the ways I have, so I don't have. I'm not a perfectionist, I, I don't have pride in my work in in, in that sense, so I don't tend to be. I'm a gett done person rather than make it perfect person,

[barry_cooper]: 31:44

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 31:45

so I think that's where a lot of writers in particular might struggle, but for me it's more of a Am I seen to be successful? Um, and do I know the right people? Um, So for me I, I'm I might be in danger of being a Um. that hideous strength. I want to say, Mark Studck,

[barry_cooper]: 32:06

Hm,

[james_cary]: 32:06

Uh, who wants to be in the inner ring?

[barry_cooper]: 32:08

right,

[james_cary]: 32:09

Uh, So there's that always

[barry_cooper]: 32:11

The Am twenty five. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 32:11

always that temptation to be in the inner.

[barry_cooper]: 32:13

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 32:14

No, it's out circular.

[barry_cooper]: 32:16

have course. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 32:16

Um, Wow, we're discussing roads in England, Barry.

[barry_cooper]: 32:19

the finer points. Yeah, doesn't

[james_cary]: 32:21

We really should take this out of the audio version at least, even though it's frozen in time for ever on the video.

[barry_cooper]: 32:26

I'm afraid, so

[james_cary]: 32:26

Um,

[barry_cooper]: 32:27

doesn't get any more middle class than that. is it

[james_cary]: 32:29

If you'd like a more edited version of this conversation, if you're watching the video,

[barry_cooper]: 32:32

right?

[james_cary]: 32:32

then do get our podcast, Uh, which is slightly more tightly edited.

[barry_cooper]: 32:36

Yeah, on the other,

[james_cary]: 32:37

But yeah, I think that's where I, where I particularly am conscious of my pride, and

[barry_cooper]: 32:42

yes,

[james_cary]: 32:42

where I have to occasionally think I was about to nap. Drop a name there to establish a link with someone.

[barry_cooper]: 32:47

Hm,

[james_cary]: 32:48

I tend not to do it just just to show off, but I do tend to do it in a one on one situation. For some reason,

[barry_cooper]: 32:54

Hm.

[james_cary]: 32:54

Um,

[barry_cooper]: 32:56

Interesting.

[james_cary]: 32:57

how, how about you in in the looking Glass?

[barry_cooper]: 32:58

Well, that's all the time we've got for the episode. I, um. I, I, at times and I feel like I'm gang myself off the hook a bit without those two words, But anyway, at times I can be hyperaware of how I think others are perceiving me. So at times in conversation with people, I have trouble really listening well because so many C, p, U cycles are devoted to. Am I doing something weird with my mouth? Am I smiling enough? Does this person think I'm insightful? All of that? That's all

[james_cary]: 33:39

Oh, okay,

[barry_cooper]: 33:39

pride? Yeah, so that's all pride Definitely pride me. self consciousness is horrible. And then

[james_cary]: 33:41

yeah, that's prior. I' definitely pride. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 33:46

here's another really weird one. When I was thinking about this, I noticed when I was at Seminary of all places, Great, See that that uh investment of time and money paid off, and that I had a habit of spending far too long crafting email. This is where we get to the perfectionism thing, which, as you know, I'm much more prone to far too long crafting emails of all things, And then after I'd sent the emails, I'd go to my scent items folder and I'd read them again and I'd reread them and I think I thought it was James's Go look in his face like I'm trying not to freak out here, but I'm clearly having a conversation with a psychopath anyway. I, I think I thought it was simply taking pride in my.

[james_cary]: 34:30

reading S items. I think

[barry_cooper]: 34:31

It's weird, isn't it?

[james_cary]: 34:32

I, I was with you with rewriting, crafting, careful

[barry_cooper]: 34:35

Then I lost you.

[james_cary]: 34:35

emails going to send items is?

[barry_cooper]: 34:40

That's right.

[james_cary]: 34:41

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 34:42

It is really weird and I mean

[james_cary]: 34:44

to what end were you we reading?

[barry_cooper]: 34:45

well, that's the thing I don't. At the time I wasn't questioning it. All I knew was that I was getting a little Philip of pleasure in doing so and I don't know why, but as I think back on it, I think the reason I did it was because, Um again, it was the self consciousness thing. I've been spending far too much time reflecting on how impressed people might be with the way that I'd phrased things, or the precision with which I'd express myself or whatever it is, so I was just having a lovely sort of warm bath in my own

[james_cary]: 35:19

Wow,

[barry_cooper]: 35:20

articulacy. I, it is horrible. isn't it weird?

[james_cary]: 35:22

I, I never get that about anything that I've written, but I think this is a genuine problem for people who would like to write, and

[barry_cooper]: 35:29

Yeah?

[james_cary]: 35:30

uh, regular listeners will know that we do like to bend towards the arts and encourage the arts, especially for Christians in the

[barry_cooper]: 35:36

hm,

[james_cary]: 35:36

arts, because Um, there's a culture going on, and uh, we, we surrendered about two hundred years ago,

[barry_cooper]: 35:42

hm,

[james_cary]: 35:43

so we're quite keen to reignite that. Fight and win, but listening to listening to podcast about writing the other day was asking about. You know, I don't know how to write. I don't know what to and from From the way that email was from, you could tell that this person was a perfectionist

[barry_cooper]: 36:02

hm,

[james_cary]: 36:03

and this was stopping them from writing. And there's

[barry_cooper]: 36:06

yeah,

[james_cary]: 36:07

a point at which, but there are two possible things going on. One is that some people genuinely are perfectionist because they can't bear to let it go until it's

[barry_cooper]: 36:16

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 36:16

perfect. But then, but some for for some people the reason for that is it has. they can't let it go. It'll never be perfect. With this way no one will ever see it. so they're not going to look foolish.

[barry_cooper]: 36:26

yes, yes,

[james_cary]: 36:27

Whereas I think some people generaluly just have high standards and I think that's fine,

[barry_cooper]: 36:31

Mhm, Mhm,

[james_cary]: 36:31

but there's an element of. It's easy

[barry_cooper]: 36:33

Fair of feerfolia. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 36:34

for that to become pride. and yet it's okay to be proud of something.

[barry_cooper]: 36:38

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 36:38

You know that, and maybe we will get into if time permits responses.

[barry_cooper]: 36:42

I think also perfectionism can be laziness as well, because there is that thing. If you know that, Um, you know you you, it's just going to require too much work. And so what you do is you say. well, it's not ready yet, so you just keep endlessly sort of just piddling away with it, rather than actually really being committed to getting something finished. But then I think I think you're right. There is that thing of a once. It's out there. People can see what an idiot I am. There's no clawing it back, so there's that. Yeah, I think that is a thing.

[james_cary]: 37:10

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 37:11

I. I actually remember. It's funny. That's just come to my mind, as I say that that was sort of the thought process when you initially said Hey, Why didn't we do a podcast and my thought was for my nit. My first thought was everyone will immediately see what an idiot I am. and the second thought was

[james_cary]: 37:29

well, job du

[barry_cooper]: 37:30

yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 37:31

here here.

[barry_cooper]: 37:32

yeah, and then the second thought was, And that's exactly why I should do it, because I'm so tired of trying to be a perfectionist and get everything just right. Doing a a podcast with James Cary will just be a brilliant way of letting my standards slip. That's what I was. So that's what I thought.

[james_cary]: 37:55

Oh man, this is how British men talk to each other. It's just

[barry_cooper]: 37:58

Yeah, from four thousand

[james_cary]: 37:59

on air

[barry_cooper]: 38:00

away, Yeah,

[james_cary]: 38:01

on air flat out abuse. Um. but which is entirely justified, but you're right. I mean, I think there is and again within the Ro, within the world of podcasting you, you know, so let let us be honest if you go into podcasting foura

[barry_cooper]: 38:18

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 38:19

forums, Um, E. thirty five percent of all of it is Uh men talking about microphones,

[barry_cooper]: 38:25

Yes,

[james_cary]: 38:26

Uh, th. You just can't get away from that and so

[barry_cooper]: 38:28

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 38:28

this is just. it's not helpful. but an a.

[barry_cooper]: 38:30

you say that likeck. it's a bad thing. but yeah,

[james_cary]: 38:32

yeah. yeah. I would say fifteen percent of all podcast discussion. At least it was when I last looked a year or two ago, Was how long should a podcast be to which the answer is as long as you think it should be, as

[barry_cooper]: 38:44

right right, right, Mhm,

[james_cary]: 38:44

long as it is interesting. and then you have lots of broadcasters go. Oh, well, we just talk for an hour and a half and you know if the audience, uh, you know

[barry_cooper]: 38:54

Want to come along then? great?

[james_cary]: 38:55

and people seem, people seem to love it and they, you know, and and there are shows that I listen to that are really long and blah blahah. look at Joe Rogan. He's three hours long and all that kind of stuff to which then occasionally I used to offer advice, which was okay, but it would probably be better if it was shorter. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 39:14

yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 39:15

so it isrovable but th to those And but there are some people who just think I should script the whole thing. Um, and I can't imagine doing it all. I should talk and talk and then edit an hour down to twelve minutes, which is probably about an eight hours. Edit.

[barry_cooper]: 39:32

yes,

[james_cary]: 39:33

Uh to get something down that much.

[barry_cooper]: 39:34

absolutely

[james_cary]: 39:36

Um, so, but I mean, in a way W. It feels like we've drifted, but in another way it feels like these are practical examples of

[barry_cooper]: 39:44

yeah. yeah,

[james_cary]: 39:45

how pride perfectionism, Um, you know, sort of manifestence themselves,

[barry_cooper]: 39:49

no, this is very helpful. It' much lot cheaper than therapy. Let's face it now you.

[james_cary]: 39:52

especially in America.

[barry_cooper]: 39:54

Yeah, the other day it's I. I know you. You were reading Lukes, Seventeen, Were you and you had a particular

[james_cary]: 39:59

M.

[barry_cooper]: 40:00

issue Would want. we talk about that for a little bit.

[james_cary]: 40:02

Yes, let's talk about Luke seventeen, Um, in fact, Uh, if we, if we pull up, it was for a church at a house group Bible study

[barry_cooper]: 40:11

That's how it always starts

[james_cary]: 40:12

thing, and as you read it you think Wow, this. this kind of hurts. Ah, this doesn't seem right, and it seems like a real dent to any kind of human pride, and it comes from Jesus, But you do think Wow, does youus say stuff like this? It's Luke seventeen and I'll just read Uh three verses when he's talking to his disciples and he says. Suppose one of you has a servant ploughing or looking after the sheep, Will he say to the servant when he comes from the field? come along now and sit down to eat. Won't he rather say prepare my supper? Get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink, and after that you may eat and drink? Will he thanked the servant? Because he did what he was told to do? So you, also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say we are unworthy servants. We have only done our duty. At this he did. He did drop the mike and walk off.

[barry_cooper]: 41:13

be cause you're listening to that and you get. hang on. wait. wait. wait. I get it. Yeah, all the way through. I'm the. I'm the guy with the servant with you With you With what? Hang on. I'm the servant in this story. No,

[james_cary]: 41:26

Yup,

[barry_cooper]: 41:27

that's yeah. that's

[james_cary]: 41:28

but also you're thinking what's wrong with this master, and

[barry_cooper]: 41:32

yeah.

[james_cary]: 41:32

Jesus is going to subvert this at sound point, isn't he? Isn't he going to say the Master should sit with his servant

[barry_cooper]: 41:38

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 41:38

and they should break bread together. or this isn't this isn't going right?

[barry_cooper]: 41:41

they just chilla break open a bruisek and rarap for a little while. Like the good buddies they are. It' likeng on. Oh, that's the relationship. is it with Christ?

[james_cary]: 41:53

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 41:54

Oh, oh

[james_cary]: 41:56

Did does that jar with you?

[barry_cooper]: 41:59

yeah. yeah, we are to. Well, If you, if Jesus is saying to me as he is, I need to be my mindset needs to be. I'm an unworthy servant. Yeah, I don't think that a lot during any given day, do you? it's not really my mindset To be honest'. Amazing.

[james_cary]: 42:21

I mean, Yeah, it's just heart. And and it really bothered me about. What? what? Why do I have such a problem with this

[barry_cooper]: 42:26

yeah,

[james_cary]: 42:26

given that I'm kind of okay with divine status and I believe in all. I believe in Hash tag toads deprive, which again we will get to in in in a moment. And I think it's just the raw demonstration of order

[barry_cooper]: 42:43

hm,

[james_cary]: 42:44

in this sort of little microcosm. And and we see the disciples doing this as well, they're arguing over status quite a lot.

[barry_cooper]: 42:52

yeah,

[james_cary]: 42:53

And even, I mean the the weird ending of John's Gospel, where John and Peter are still bickering

[barry_cooper]: 43:00

yeah,

[james_cary]: 43:00

Um,

[barry_cooper]: 43:01

there's a bit in Mark,

[james_cary]: 43:02

and when

[barry_cooper]: 43:02

where where, where Jesus has just given them a lecture about you, want to be great. You've got to be least, and then immediately after. Uh, is it James and John and P. I forget exactly, but they. They're arguing about who iss going to be the greatest in the Kingdom straight after that little teaching point And then Jesus says to them, what are you? Uh? What are you talking about? Nothing.

[james_cary]: 43:24

mam

[barry_cooper]: 43:25

We're just wondering what we get out for lunch. Nothing, nothing to see here.

[james_cary]: 43:29

in heaven and who sits where?

[barry_cooper]: 43:31

Yeah, amazing,

[james_cary]: 43:32

Yeah, Yeah, No, it's It's amazing. so I just think it's the way it's demonstrated. And again, I suppose it goes back to the the Um order that is established in Genesis, where we have the where we have God who makes man, and from the man he makes women. And then he has put them in charge of the garden and the animals,

[barry_cooper]: 43:56

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 43:57

And so you get the subversion of the order, in which Um, a man uh, listens to his wife when it's a terrible idea, and he should have intervened, And the his wife has listened to an animal to a serpent. So the whole, the whole creation order has been flipped Um, pretty much on on day one, Um, and

[barry_cooper]: 44:21

So what you're

[james_cary]: 44:22

uh,

[barry_cooper]: 44:22

saying is knowing our place is really important and we've sort of forgotten.

[james_cary]: 44:28

I think so, 'cause I think we just want to flat now. Absolutely everything.

[barry_cooper]: 44:31

Yeah, egalitarianism is that again?

[james_cary]: 44:32

Because of, I think that's partly right, and it, it's its really struck me in the debates leading up to the general Syold and I, and I was happy to say in hustins and stuff that I'm a. I hold a complimentarian view, which is a very minority view with in the Church of England now which has women, uh, uh, vicars, and uh women bishops. And if you, you know, as I said in hustings, if you have women visitics, youre go have women Bship. That doesn't any sense at all

[barry_cooper]: 44:56

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 44:56

to have not what, one and not the other. Um, but uh, everyone. but the argument against that was normally well, look at this bishop or that bishop. She's really good.

[barry_cooper]: 45:09

I know.

[james_cary]: 45:10

Why are you saying that you know and this, this this lady was our Vicca, and she did the job really well. Are you saying that a woman can't do the job to which the answer is? Well, No, it's not about

[barry_cooper]: 45:22

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 45:22

it's it's not. it's not about the job, it's about the office. It's about the order, Um, and the only ex. the only example I could think of to push back against, and like we couldn't get into it, because there' you can't actually discuss anything in these in these forums. Um, And you know when? why why should you? They? just it's just a dis bas a dis. You're not going to change anybody's mind in hustings. You know that's that's fine. But it did strike me that one example we would be to say to someone. Why don't we just do church on Tuesdayscause? What? What's so special about Tuesday? We could, just we could have hymns. we could have preach on a Tuesday? Uh you to get the day off work. We could. A. There's nothing that happens in church on a Sunday that

[barry_cooper]: 46:01

get cheaper tacos, Yeah,

[james_cary]: 46:04

couldn't happen on a

[barry_cooper]: 46:05

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 46:05

Tuesday. Tuesdays are fine. Yeah, but the creation order is that we go to have church on our Sunday. It was a Saturday, was a sabbot that was moved to Sunday as a reurrection day. Oh, oh, so there is some order here.

[barry_cooper]: 46:19

right,

[james_cary]: 46:20

Okay, that's interesting. So it applies with days of the week, but it doesn't apply with with gender.

[barry_cooper]: 46:25

interesting.

[james_cary]: 46:27

Um. That would be the only E equivalent I could give. And therefore so therefore egalitarianism in that sense, is, is is a kick against the order. Now I know what we have, dear brothers and sisters, who who believe passionately in egalitarian uh, theology, and our evangelicals, And you know, Uh, this is not a. This is not a deal breaker necessarily, although I think it has some really serious theological consequences. Um, I mean, even language apart from English is gendered. Uh,

[barry_cooper]: 46:55

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 46:56

you know, from French nouns on mail of mascline or feminine, And so that kind of stuff. but um, but I think that's kind of why we. we want to flatten out absolutely everything and just say if you're a person, you can do anything and no one gets to say who who says what? And yet that's That's not a particularly helpful way of thinking. I didn't think that was a bit of a sideways rant which helpfully circled back to pride and status and order.

[barry_cooper]: 47:26

No. I think I think that is right is a fundamentally. It's a fundamental instinctive primeal kick against anybody who says. Now, actually, I am the boss of you. There's that bumper sticker that you see every so often is her favorite with Hell's angels, and obviously those other sort ofircles that moving now in Florida. you know better to rein and hell than to serve in Heaven. I think that' quite from Milson, isn' it Paradise Lost or something? I think Satan say that, So you know it's not that's not meant. When Milton wrote that he wasn't saying. Yeah, this is a good. This is a good life verse. He puts that

[james_cary]: 48:06

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 48:06

in the mouth of Satan. But people really believe that we would rather die and go to hell than than simply admit God is good, Doesn't seem like a big thing to say. God is God. The clues in the title, He's very much God. Are you Ok with that? No, I'm not Ok. with that. All right. Why? why is it so hard to admit God is's God, and I think the answer to that is if God is good, then I'm not. I mean, that's the bottom line, isn't it? If God is God, then there's nothing he can't ask of me. That's a. Really. That's an uncomfortable place to be. Um? We just, we just don't want to live a life like that, So yeah, it seems pretty fundamental to who we are. I thinkers, people.

[james_cary]: 48:52

so how do we get out of this? Um, Because there are there are alternatives to being proud

[barry_cooper]: 49:00

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 49:00

and proud. Hear know Stiff neck is another good one. Isn't there? people who won't bow their heads

[barry_cooper]: 49:07

right,

[james_cary]: 49:08

that you know the Israel are a stiff neck. People. I was reading

[barry_cooper]: 49:12

yes,

[james_cary]: 49:12

The Goldenf the other day with Fourteer Group, But how do we? How do we get out of this without falling off the horse, as we often se this podcast on the other side, Because it struck me that the opposite of pride and not in a good way is self loathing

[barry_cooper]: 49:30

Hmm,

[james_cary]: 49:32

and that that's not good, either, is it? And that is another problem that we have in our society. You are required to hate yourself,

[barry_cooper]: 49:40

is self loathing always bad? I mean, doesn't it? doesn't it depend on how we define self loathing and I guess how long we lived there?

[james_cary]: 49:52

Mhm.

[barry_cooper]: 49:52

Wouldn't you say? The reason I say that is because Wouldn't you say? The reason I say that is because Calvin? famously, John Calvin said that, Um, he said Du, and obviously I, It's not so famous that I can remember it. I'm going to read it. He says, we cannot really aspire toward God till we have begun to be displeased with ourselves. So there's a sense in which maybe loathing's too strong. A well. I don't know whether it is too strong a word, but there has to be a sense of. I've looked inside myself. It's really ugly in here. It's like Great Yarmouth. It's really unpleasant. Sorry if you're in

[james_cary]: 50:31

Wow,

[barry_cooper]: 50:32

Grarey, Yarmoth, Um, no,

[james_cary]: 50:34

six listeners have now just switched off.

[barry_cooper]: 50:34

I. ah, man, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean. I could have said anything.

[james_cary]: 50:38

You did mean it. That's the worst thing about it, Barry. Is he meant it.

[barry_cooper]: 50:41

I was there twenty five years ago. I had a bad time. It was probably just an off day. Um, we have to be displeased with ourselves, don't we? if we're going to reach out for God, I suppose the problem is if you camp there and all you ever do is you just look at your own loathsomeness rather than using the loathsomeness as as it were, a sort of a um, a launch pad from which to go. Oh, okay, I. I, how wonderful I have a a saviour who saves me from that, Um, and and delighting in that I. but I do think. yeah, maybe self loathing gets rather a bad rap. In that sense,

[james_cary]: 51:20

Okay? I, I

[barry_cooper]: 51:22

Minority report.

[james_cary]: 51:22

take the point and maybe it's I've not seen that

[barry_cooper]: 51:27

No, I just

[james_cary]: 51:27

the

[barry_cooper]: 51:28

mean in the sense of it is a minority view.

[james_cary]: 51:31

okay. I think you argue it convincingly, but I would still say that words and terms are probably helpful if they generally agreed upon.

[barry_cooper]: 51:39

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 51:40

I'd like to term early of self forgetfulness. I

[barry_cooper]: 51:43

Mm,

[james_cary]: 51:43

think that was helpful and I think we do believe as Calvinist in totalvy hashes deprive,

[barry_cooper]: 51:48

yeah,

[james_cary]: 51:50

but even that, I think

[barry_cooper]: 51:52

you can live there, can't you? you, could? it? Total depravity can be a thing where people get so sort of obsessed with it. And that's not really the point, Iss actually supposed to be a liberating realization

[james_cary]: 52:03

yeah, Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 52:04

about yourself, isn't it? rather than a. A damning one forever.

[james_cary]: 52:08

it can teach it, but also it can tee it over into. I'm so sinful. What's the point

[barry_cooper]: 52:13

Yesly,

[james_cary]: 52:13

and that can be a form of what might be called antiomianism, Uh,

[barry_cooper]: 52:18

that's a good idea,

[james_cary]: 52:18

which is essentially, you know, I'm goingnna continue to sin because God forgives me and that's what he does. and Um. there's no point which.

[barry_cooper]: 52:25

and I'm already. I'm already so dirty. I must as well keep rolling around in the mud some more. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 52:29

yeah, um, And so you know, that sort of describes one of my children Uh. in in wooded areas, It's just like Well, I'm dirty now, so let's let's ride this one all the way out. Um, but um, I just think there's the the self loathing I think implies a self destructiveness

[barry_cooper]: 52:55

yes,

[james_cary]: 52:56

and a lack of understanding of who you really are. so I think even more basic than our total depravity, and more fundamental is being image bearers of God and we are not animals. Um, we have you know we have been made in God's image, and therefore, uh, we don't want to despise that, and therefore anything that sort of places into. um, uh, yeah, just or the manipulation of someone so that they constantly feel guilty for something that actually they haven't done. So we get a lot of that with. you know, if you're a particular person of a particular race, then you are on the hook for the behavior of your great great great great grandfathers.

[barry_cooper]: 53:43

right. yes, creating self loathing

[james_cary]: 53:43

Um, and it's like, Well, there's no. There's no way out of that, is there? It's like you should be ashamed of yourself. I haven't done anything Well. we all know that you have done something. Yes, but I haven't. I

[barry_cooper]: 53:52

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 53:53

haven't done the thing that my great great great grandparents did. Um, and I can't be held accountable for that. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 54:00

Yes, so

[james_cary]: 54:00

so

[barry_cooper]: 54:00

there's no way of paying your way out of that. You're in the hole and that's it you. You're

[james_cary]: 54:04

yeah, yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 54:04

damned forever.

[james_cary]: 54:06

Which w. and in one sense we are, we have inherited the sin of Adams, So we are Dan forever.

[barry_cooper]: 54:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 54:11

And so I believe you know, so if we believe in original sin, and but thanks be to God through the grace of Christ, we, uh, we can be saved. Um that, but I, I think the reason that I'm just reluctant to go down the self loathing rof, as it feels like it's It's another disease. Uh,

[barry_cooper]: 54:28

yes.

[james_cary]: 54:29

like pride and it feels like a form. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 54:30

well, I think it is again. as I said earlier, I think it is a sort of pride, Actually, self clothing, because it's all

[james_cary]: 54:35

Mm,

[barry_cooper]: 54:36

about the sel. It's it's an inability to take your eyes away from yourself to forget yourself. I think it is pride. Actually,

[james_cary]: 54:43

yeah, so it's and it gives into despair

[barry_cooper]: 54:45

Yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 54:46

and all of those other things. And you know and I, there are. There are vaguely bearable passages in Pilgrim's Progress about some of these things. Um, where they are.

[barry_cooper]: 54:55

James, I was. I was going to ask you what is? Are there some other? some positive examples of humility And you

[james_cary]: 55:02

H.

[barry_cooper]: 55:02

can't say Jesus.

[james_cary]: 55:07

um.

[barry_cooper]: 55:08

It's tricky. isn't itcause? If we met someone who is truly humble, they wouldn't draw attention to themselves.

[james_cary]: 55:13

yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 55:13

So they' often quite hard to spot, I think, the the humble people, But maybe you have.

[james_cary]: 55:18

yeah, I don't know. I think an awful lot of pride goes on in the head and we don't see that.

[barry_cooper]: 55:23

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 55:24

So when somebody is proud, I mean an awful lot of sitcom characters you know have pride issues.

[barry_cooper]: 55:31

Yes, David Brent,

[james_cary]: 55:31

Um, From you know David Brent, Michael Scott,

[barry_cooper]: 55:34

yes, yes,

[james_cary]: 55:34

as as they call him in America,

[barry_cooper]: 55:36

Mhmm.

[james_cary]: 55:36

Um, And but it sort of fundamentally, there is a lack of self awareness in all sitcom characters, which is a form of pride. They just don't see it.

[barry_cooper]: 55:45

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 55:46

Uh, they don't see who they are. Um, but but yeah, I've not forgotten the question.

[barry_cooper]: 55:54

well, otherready, have you personally come across with? We're landing the plane again. a positive airport, which is just Sl.

[james_cary]: 56:01

Mm.

[barry_cooper]: 56:02

Have you met anybody?

[james_cary]: 56:03

no, Easter Houndslow is a. It's the other airport, isn't it?

[barry_cooper]: 56:05

Is I was thinking of Heathrow actually, but

[james_cary]: 56:08

Yeah, no, but I was thinking was so we. We were a He throw. Aren't we now going to Getwick?

[barry_cooper]: 56:12

fair enough. Let's go to Gawick, I don't mind go to Luton if you like or stand.

[james_cary]: 56:16

No, no, no, no, no, no,

[barry_cooper]: 56:16

But what I need to know from you James is, Have you met anybody in your everyday? your life in Yoval, or maybe somewhere else you've been. Perhaps a general syno. Maybe not. I don't know. Have you met someone where you thought this person really is humble? I could. I could really learn a few humbly things from this person?

[james_cary]: 56:38

yeah, I think I think lots, lots of the Christians that I know and I probably couldn't name names necessarily, but there are loads of people who I think really talented, Really smart. Really, could, Um, would would have great grounds to draw attention to their own virtues. Uh, and don't and don't do that. Um. So are you fishing for compliments, Barry? are you? I' you hoping that I'm going to say Well, there is one man with whom I do a podcast. Um, and he's called Dave Cohen, and the podcast is called Sitcom geeks,

[barry_cooper]: 57:09

I'm a little disappointed. It's taken you five minutes to reach that bit. but

[james_cary]: 57:09

Uh, which is my other podcast.

[barry_cooper]: 57:15

yeah, I.

[james_cary]: 57:16

I, I got there. In the end, the plane landed,

[barry_cooper]: 57:17

yeah, that's the main thing. thanks man. I really appreciate that.

[james_cary]: 57:19

but it is striking when you do meet people

[barry_cooper]: 57:21

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 57:21

who are especially older people, older saints. They really do show this because they got so much wisdom and experience and they could be. They could be very, very. told you. so.

[barry_cooper]: 57:31

yes,

[james_cary]: 57:32

um. in fact, there's an older brother at my uh church. Uh, who's you know? who Hass had a really significant ministry in In some aspects of you know, conservative evangelical worlds, stuff, uh, in the U. K and I really appreciate just having a little chat with him occasionally and he answers the questions that I ask him and he tends not to prompt questions because he knows that you know. it's just enough to answer my questions. He probably doesn't eat to, um, open extra line. ry,

[barry_cooper]: 58:01

so that's funny. You should mention the older people I was going to mention.

[james_cary]: 58:01

umm,

[barry_cooper]: 58:06

So when I was at Old Souls, I used to get a stuff lunch, and quite often John Stott would be there and he was one of the most unasuming people. I ever met, and, without doubt one of the most brilliant and I remember, once he came over, he sat down next to me while we were having lunch, and I thought to myself fantastic I get to pick his braids about how to write brilliant books and how to be a You know preach a brilliant sermon, And I was incredibly disappointed because all he wanted to do was talk about me that, Lo to me, How are you? What are you up to? I kept trying to change the subject to him and he just wouldn't have it. He haveit and I just think that that for me when I think of humility apart from Jesus, that's one of my things

[james_cary]: 58:53

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 58:54

Really was.

[james_cary]: 58:55

interesting. it's a good. That's a really good shout because I did speak to a friend of the show Mark Menll,

[barry_cooper]: 59:00

H.

[james_cary]: 59:01

Um, who uh, we talked to about leaving Facebook, and uh, a few other things more recently and I interviewed him at the K convention, po, uh, and at the unconventional, and sort of and he was. He's been doing a lot of work on the John Stop legacy and I did ask him. Is there a danger of sort of hero worshipping cause we we. We've seen where hero worship at lands, Um, you know, side notes, Uh Mars hill, uh ris, and fall off. See previouspisode, But actually he was really uh, robust in a good way and and generous, and just said, He was just so humble. He was just so uninterested in himself

[barry_cooper]: 59:44

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 59:46

And he made a lot of money through Um publishing books. and he didn't keep any of

[barry_cooper]: 59:51

yeah,

[james_cary]: 59:51

it. It all went to Lang Partnership, which is all about training Bible teachers in other countries. So you know he really was to live as Christ To die. is gain, Uh, right until the

[barry_cooper]: 1:00:02

he lived in a tiny tiny little room in central London,

[james_cary]: 1:00:04

very end. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:00:07

really unassuming. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:00:08

Yeah are and and then and then there are others who might do that as a way of saying. Look at how uninterested they are in their position. But you. could you get a whiff of the Martyr complex, a whiff of self dened.

[barry_cooper]: 1:00:20

right, it can definitely go that way.

[james_cary]: 1:00:23

Yeah, and that she That really struck me, Um, We, we chatted before that we came on. because believe it or not, Uh, viewers and listeners. Uh, if you join us on Patrion, you, you can get more of this and we were talking for a good, a good leth of time before we started recording Uh for this for this main podcast About that the Hill Song documentary, Uh, which is on the B B C I player, Uh, in the U, K, a documentary about Hills song And the thing I think that really struck me especially early on was Uh. Brian Houston, on stage, talking about how they're trying to raise up people who will be people of influence, And it was all about status, status, status status, and as the documentary unfolded and I don't think personally, the B b C are terribly reliable when it comes to reporting fairly on religion and religious causes, Um, it, but it did chime with my experience of the Hill Song

[barry_cooper]: 1:01:20

Yeah. yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:01:20

movement is that there was an awful lot of Emphtus, emphasis on the pastor on the pastor who was standing there charismatically in their skinny genes and their extremely expensive sneakers. Um. and it struck me that this felt like it was feeding pride and ego, And this is the. This is the anti John Stott. You know, you can

[barry_cooper]: 1:01:39

yes,

[james_cary]: 1:01:40

almost hear the poor guy turning in his grave as this broad as it documentary is being broadcast. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:01:46

yes, yes,

[james_cary]: 1:01:47

really worrying.

[barry_cooper]: 1:01:48

the C. The cry for influence You. You sent me a text that you know, said you should check out this documentary and just when that text arrived, I just finished watching Tering. S. A hidden life and it was the most extraordinary, Um relief. The striking relief between the two, Um, because there's Houston banging on about the importance of getting influence and of course it's gussied up as a spiritual thing. We get influence so that we can you know, bring more glory to God or whatever the rationale is. But then a hidden life is all about. I mean the main thesis of that film seems to be, Does it matter doing good things if they're completely invisible to the rest of the world? You know what's your motivation for doing so. Why should you? you know? The basic story is this that this a guy is called up to Austrian, Um, called up to the Nazis's army to go and fight for them. Refuses to do it. Course, inevitably gets arrested and you can probably work out where it goes from there. It's the most extraordinary brilliant film and it's been living with me now for the the last of whatever, thirty six hours. I keep going back to that thought of, because for a while I've been getting a bit frustrated with certain aspects of work and so un unthinking. I wonder if you know that I feel like more stuff should be coming out and I was worrying about how little was getting out there. And then I thought well, that's really. Even if you never do another thing and nobody ever hears of you, that is really completely irrelevant. It's not important. You can still be Um glorifying Christ. You can still be loving Christ. You can still be living a profoundly significant life, even if nobody knows who you are or anything

[james_cary]: 1:03:38

Hm, Hm.

[barry_cooper]: 1:03:38

you've done, And the wonder that the delicious irony of the film, of course, is that now millions of people do know exactly what this guy has done. But even if that hadn't happened and Terence Mallck hadn't made that film, what he did mattered hugely. Um. Christ sees it, So that was an Ama. Amazing signal. two things next to each other.

[james_cary]: 1:04:01

If you would like to know more about Terence Malick, Uh, we actually spoke to Uh, a Fellowquton Price on episode fifty, five, the episode entitled It' A kind of Maleck, which I think we were quite pleased with, And we talk about his movie, Uh, The Tree of Life a bit as well. And Um, there was another one. I think that we mentioned that he gives us his top five films, which, according to Blurb says he surprises us by not including any works by Chevy Chase, Uhs. that's that's where we are. so uh. anyway, that's uh. If you're in Patriony, can listen to that episode

[barry_cooper]: 1:04:35

Yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:04:36

and go back and get hold of that. Um.

[barry_cooper]: 1:04:38

can I just make of really trivial superficial comments? Why not? That's all I've been doing so far. Um, you know, the uh, there's this funny. This is a translation thing that does make me laugh. We do occasionally talk about things in the Bible that make us laugh. and um, not in a negative way, right, but in a positive way. Um. there's the whole thing about scoffers. Yeah, get James's book. Um, scoffers comes up quite a bit in scripture. the scoffers you know, and one of my favorite translations is. In the latter days scoffers will come scoffing. It's not the best

[james_cary]: 1:05:17

yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:05:18

translation and or the e. s we says. In the last days mockers shall come with mockery. Well, that's pretty much all they've grown. their locker, isn't it The mockers? I mean, they're the first people you call. Oh, does any

[james_cary]: 1:05:29

scoffers.

[barry_cooper]: 1:05:30

one know where I can get some mocking at short notice? Yeah, you should call the mockers, shouldn't you?

[james_cary]: 1:05:34

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:05:35

though I am now slightly concerned that I'm scoffing at the translation and thus becoming a scoffer. and the B was not very optimistic about that, but I just I to throw that in.

[james_cary]: 1:05:43

we pray for you.

[barry_cooper]: 1:05:44

I told you it was superficial.

[james_cary]: 1:05:46

Yeah, but we, we're glad you did. We' very glad it. So I think I mean the fact is if you pray the Lord's prayer every day

[barry_cooper]: 1:05:56

Hm.

[james_cary]: 1:05:56

that's going to help, isn't it in terms of solutions and reneies? Re, remedies, Um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:01

spiritual solutions. Yes, yes,

[james_cary]: 1:06:03

give us this, you know. give us this day our daily bread.

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:05

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:06:07

So with dependence on God, forgive us our sins, as we forgive those against us, Leaders, not thetentation. I mean, that's covering quite a lot, but we are beginning by remembering who God is

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:15

right,

[james_cary]: 1:06:16

our father In heaven. Hallowed be your name.

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:18

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:06:19

Your kingdom come. you will be done

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:22

Yes,

[james_cary]: 1:06:23

on earth, as is in heaven.

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:24

And and you're not getting any daily bread unless it comes from him and I

[james_cary]: 1:06:28

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:28

take it the daily bread is not just the literal mother's pride. It's everything, isn't it?

[james_cary]: 1:06:34

Mm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:34

Um, you know the breath that you draw, so I think that is got to be a key thing, like if we are trying to find an antidot of pride as the first step is surely realizing how dependent we are, and just enjoy that rather than resenting it or kicking against it like a wheat, like a weaned child, as it says, in some hundred thirty one, one of our

[james_cary]: 1:06:58

yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:06:58

patrons, Er, Josh, Josh sent that through to us, and I think that is an important place to go if we're talking about prize. And how to fight it

[james_cary]: 1:07:09

and not also just looking at Jesus as being God incarnt and humbling himself,

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:13

right

[james_cary]: 1:07:14

humbling herself to death, but death on a

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:15

Philippines,

[james_cary]: 1:07:16

cross. But for those in ministry in particular, managing churches and mega churches Now, have I have really big reservations about mega

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:23

right,

[james_cary]: 1:07:23

churchches, Um, not least because how big was Jesus' church? I mean, he was working with twelve.

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:31

Yp,

[james_cary]: 1:07:32

One of those didn't work out

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:33

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 1:07:35

and out of the twelve. It was really kind of three.

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:38

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:07:39

Um, So, and yet we're pretty convinced that we can probably manage three four five hundred, Um, in a church and plenty of churches a function at three four five hundred when we get to thousands and campases and that kind of stuff. And again,

[barry_cooper]: 1:07:52

I do really think with campases if Multi sight was a good idea, Either Jesus would have come at a time of video technology or youj mean he would have come

[james_cary]: 1:08:03

Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:03

now, or video technology would have been invented in first century Balestine. You would if Multi sight is a good idea, Because there you go. but Jesus doesn't get any better than just sort of beaming him everywhere, but no

[james_cary]: 1:08:15

but would they say Yeah, But youve had the five thousand. Clearly he speak to big crowds.

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:19

right.

[james_cary]: 1:08:20

Um, but yeah, where were those crowds? Um? when they said who should we release?

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:25

Mm,

[james_cary]: 1:08:25

Uh, on this day of of execution, Uh,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:29

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:08:30

though the murderer. oh, okay,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:32

are you sure bar baraabus?

[james_cary]: 1:08:32

uh, well, wasn't it wasn't expecting that. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:35

Yeah, Hm.

[james_cary]: 1:08:37

I literally don't care who we execute, but even I am surprised by your choice.

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:41

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:08:41

Uh, so let me just check that I've heard you correctly. Bits perrabus. You want Brabbus, baraabus, Okay,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:46

and actually it's nothing personal to baraabus. any, just any one other than Jesus, you know any murderer? you've got released then,

[james_cary]: 1:08:54

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:08:54

said Brillt. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:08:56

um, yeah, and I think on that odd note we should

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:00

you. really? we gonna? We're going to depart Pop personal airports. On that note, are we

[james_cary]: 1:09:06

we are, we're going

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:06

okay?

[james_cary]: 1:09:07

to take. We're going to take off again, Um, and circle endlessly for another fortnight until we join you again. Uh, with further thoughts,

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:14

right,

[james_cary]: 1:09:15

uh, from and and depatches,

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:17

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:09:17

Uh, I nearly said from the front lines of theology there, but I don't think anyone can accuse us of being at the front lines or even the middle lines of

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:23

the front lines of stupidity may be, but yeah, I'm not sure

[james_cary]: 1:09:24

they.

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:27

we are going to stick around on the line as it were after this ep episode for uh finishes, to do a little bit more. and and and address some things that our dear patrons have brought up as well. So again. If that's something that you fancy being a part of a take like the show notes. Uh, you can go to the website Coopering Carriry, or com, click on the A Patrion link, which is the bottom ride of the screen, and see all the wonderful things that you can be a part of An that you can have, Um, your

[james_cary]: 1:09:55

Hm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:09:56

very self, But I think that's it.

[james_cary]: 1:09:57

And it may be that you just yeah, and it that you just like the show. You don't want any extra content. You don't want to be part of a discord group

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:05

You may never want to see us ever again, but just want to support you.

[james_cary]: 1:10:05

and you just want to contribute. Yeah, and that's all completely fine. Yeah, and that that would be great, too. It does help us keep the lights on be cause we do. We do actually prepare for this sometimes and the the tack at the at the back end of it with the audio and the video and everything takes a bit of time

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:10:20

and money as well. say if you can chip in and if you can't do that either, then recommend it to a friend or an enemy. Uh to listen to.

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:28

Mm.

[james_cary]: 1:10:29

Uh, and just this is a hard one to share, isn't it? Hey? I listen to an episode on Pride. I really think you should listen

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:35

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:10:35

to it so we've probably not created the best episode to recommend. But listen to the last one about why build a cathedral, And we got some uh thoughts on that

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:45

yeah, Mhm.

[james_cary]: 1:10:45

with Uh, the with Doctor Steve Jeffrey,

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:48

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:10:49

So lot, lots of sure,

[barry_cooper]: 1:10:49

so get in touch with us if you will let us know what you think about all of this or leaveever. if you're watching on Youtube. leave us a comment By the wayise. you can get us old style, Ah, Cooper Carey at G Mail dot com Where on Twitter we' On Intgram, we are on Facebook. I believe as well, so we're only were drawwing the line at tik Top right now, because neither of us, sir, you know twelve your girls who want to be spied upon by China as so. Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:11:15

Yeah, or dances. Yeah,

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:17

yeah, or dances. So thanks for chewing in. Yeah, yeah, no, cherio,

[james_cary]: 1:11:19

not yet anyway. never say, never, Chs, them byebye.

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:27

right

[james_cary]: 1:11:27

Okay,

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:28

patrons, it's just you and I, you and us

[james_cary]: 1:11:31

just you and us, I mean we. We waggled a fair amount beforehand, didn't we? so? um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:35

we did. Although there was a couple of things that, though it might be so, Cory

[james_cary]: 1:11:38

please do.

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:38

Coy made a comment. he said, Can you speak to Pride versus proud? Are they the same thing? internally Pride in one's workmanship, Question Mark,

[james_cary]: 1:11:48

mhm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:11:49

and I think pulled. I. I sort of meant to get to this in the episode, but Paul the Apostlepole takes a sort of pride in the Corinthians of all people, and although the translations that say pride are probably unhelpful, the word is really boasting, he says, in Second Corinthian's, Great is my boasting on your behalf. And then in first

[james_cary]: 1:12:10

Mhm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:12:10

grintance, he says I, a fiirm brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus. So there is obvious, There is a sense in which poor takes pride in his workmanship, Those who responded to his ministry in Currentinth, But of course he knows full well that he only has this to boast in because of what, because of what God has done through him cause, he' already said that a few verses early in First Corinthians, is not, is not I, but the grace of God. This is with me, so I think that is a far cry, isn't it? From what we usually think of when we say Oh, I'm taking pride in in my workmanship Is fine. To take pride in your workmanship as long as you hold the your workmanship bit very lightly. I would say that makes sense,

[james_cary]: 1:12:55

yeah, yeah, I have. I have no. nothing to add. I think that's a very good way of putting it. Um, but I think

[barry_cooper]: 1:13:02

Josh yon.

[james_cary]: 1:13:04

just the last thing is we. we are, though often blind to the things that we've done were not very critical. I just literally, early this afternoon was recording podcast about sitcom writing and scripts,

[barry_cooper]: 1:13:15

H.

[james_cary]: 1:13:16

And you slave over a script and you sort of go there it is. it's done. It's done and the moment someone says um, yeah, so uh, it's great. first. sc. uh. There's a problem with this and this't work. It' quite confusing and I quite understand what's happening here. Who

[barry_cooper]: 1:13:32

it's not done here.

[james_cary]: 1:13:32

is that And suddenly it's but people don't like comments and there's um uh. in my first book No, in for by book called Writing that sitcom. I spend the first couple of chapters trying to talk you out of writing a

[barry_cooper]: 1:13:48

H.

[james_cary]: 1:13:49

sitcomcause. It's just too much pain and agony and I quote a um. An article, uh, by the guy who wrote the history of violence, and the article called Will not read your King script, And Um, he has friends say. Oh, could you read my script and then he reads it and then they say, And then then he gives some feedback and then Oh, he say, But you asked me to read it. So

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:15

hm, hm,

[james_cary]: 1:14:16

and then some a friend of theirs would just say Yeah, Apparently you are just really rude about about Stephanie

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:21

right,

[james_cary]: 1:14:21

script. and oh, she just wanted me to say that it was great.

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:25

Yeah, Well then,

[james_cary]: 1:14:26

It wasn't great. It was bad,

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:27

hm,

[james_cary]: 1:14:29

so it's a very catathtic um piece.

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:33

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:14:33

If you look up Josh Olsen, I will not read your script

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:37

that's good.

[james_cary]: 1:14:38

that will come up with in Village Voice I think, And he talks about spending hours writing and rewriting emails as to do the

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:45

Oh my word.

[james_cary]: 1:14:45

feedback and then discovering that he's been spent two hours and he just recently just done the first page.

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:51

yeah, Hemas, really

[james_cary]: 1:14:52

So

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:53

not the way to go with Uh, feedback onkripts. That's definitely

[james_cary]: 1:14:56

no,

[barry_cooper]: 1:14:57

true. and the other part of Corey's question, which we didn't get to, which I think is a really interesting one. How our culture views pride, so national pride, particularly l g b t, q pluspus plas pride identsity politics, So I, I think I just just on the l g b t plus plus plus thing. I think often that type of identity based pride, you know pride, Um, you know, pride rallies and pride marches and stuff. It seems to me like a massive over compensation. It feels like an over reaction to something else which I would pauseit, is a sense of shame, so I th. I think it's an attempt to obliterate shame and ignore shame and kind of overrite it and override it. It's It's an overcomensation for feeling feeling wrong. In some way. You know that idea. that if I keep telling myself long enough that I'm really proud of this, then maybe the sense of shame will go away, So I think that is what's weird about the culture right now is I don't think there is a posit. There's not. There's no such thing as good shame in the culture today. right all shame is bad

[james_cary]: 1:16:08

hm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:16:09

shame. it seems to me, but that's not true, is it? I mean, there is such a thing as good shame. There is a certain sort of shame that we feel when we do something bad where our body is telling us something, And it's like Okay, Don't do that. That was that'. That's a good good shit. Now there obviously is a bad sort of shame You

[james_cary]: 1:16:24

hm, mm, I mean, Th. another example of shame, which is a bit more well in,

[barry_cooper]: 1:16:28

think about be believe he had been abused and and feel a sense of shame about that which is obviously completely inappropriate. Wrong, a wrong sense of shame. That's not right. but I think there is a good a sense of which shame is a good thing as well than any. what to be listened to. It's not a bargains a feature.

[james_cary]: 1:16:49

sometimess, more personal, but less um, contentious. In some ways is fat shaming,

[barry_cooper]: 1:16:54

Yes,

[james_cary]: 1:16:56

Um, and so, in a way I, I'm I find it hard not to be judgmental. Um, partly because I lost a lot of weight, but also I become more and more convinced that we have a huge huge health crisis already here and coming, and getting worse and worse. I listen to a Podcaar series called A Thorough examination about two doctors are identical twins and one is full stone heavier than the other, Um. And they've done T v stret shows for the B C before because they're because as identical twins and medical doctors, Uh, they're both really

[barry_cooper]: 1:17:32

hm,

[james_cary]: 1:17:32

interesting. Um, and they you know, said that scientifically.

[barry_cooper]: 1:17:36

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:17:36

Um, but obviously I've got A. A. a good friend of mine. Um has huge weight problems because he hass toate steroids for health

[barry_cooper]: 1:17:45

hm,

[james_cary]: 1:17:45

and that just makes you huge, and there's literally nothing you can do about it, so I'm always so occasionally. My kids just sort of point to someone who's very big and I just say they might be on steroids like our

[barry_cooper]: 1:17:54

right,

[james_cary]: 1:17:54

friend and they'. oh yeah, of

[barry_cooper]: 1:17:55

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:17:56

course, but overall you just think we've got real problem here, and to say nothing, just feels irresponsible. Um, but you want to bring it up, but in a way that isn't fat shaming, but equally it's like there's a problem here. Uh, so I don't know. I mean, maybe I've already enraged listeners, but um, it's just

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:16

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:18:17

it's it's. It's really serious and so that's why I'm finding climate panic hard to get my head around. when people say about the existential crisis that we are facing. It's like we're already in a really really awful

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:32

right.

[james_cary]: 1:18:32

crisis.

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:33

Well

[james_cary]: 1:18:34

Um. of.

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:34

again, don't you think it is a massive operation and distraction? I think that's what climate changes at one level. I think there is such a obsession with it because it means we don't have to think about the stuff that's in our immediate

[james_cary]: 1:18:45

I think

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:46

families and in our media lives. And so

[james_cary]: 1:18:48

I, I think that's a powerful explanation. I'm not saying They're not worried about anything,

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:52

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:18:52

And so I'm

[barry_cooper]: 1:18:54

yes, not everything.

[james_cary]: 1:18:54

I'm I. I'm I'm pretty skeptical about lots of things. Um, and yeah, so I was. I have my doubts aboutkept. my. My skeepticism about climate change was based on Uh, the millions of years of global temperatures and the lack of correlation with C o. two.

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:10

Hm,

[james_cary]: 1:19:10

but I've since given up really believing in millions of years, so I don't have that scientific basis to

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:14

yes,

[james_cary]: 1:19:15

be. Uh. So anyway, it's it's it's It's all different now, but Um

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:19

um,

[james_cary]: 1:19:20

cans open worms everywhere. Let's move on

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:22

yeah, Josh says, Is pride a state of mind or something? You do. stroke, say, what about Sm. a hundred thirty one and fretting about giant global crises? I'm sure

[james_cary]: 1:19:36

there we go.

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:36

carryer. I'm sure Carey will appreciate other chance to talk about Mind your own business being the eleventh Commandment and I'd enjoy hearing him do. so. so yes is Is Is pride a state of mind or something? You do? stroke. Say? what about some

[james_cary]: 1:19:51

well, I think that

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:51

hundred thirty one of fretting about giant crises,

[james_cary]: 1:19:54

some hundred thirty one I will read in full. It's very short. My heart is not proud, Lord, my eyes are not haughty. I

[barry_cooper]: 1:19:57

Do it? the?

[james_cary]: 1:20:01

do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me, but I have calmed, and quieted myself. I am like a weaned child with its mother like a weaned child. I am content. Israel puts your hope in the Lord both now and for evermore done. Um, I was thinking how sort of piecing together a variety of things. I've really ended up looking at one Corinthians with my kids this morning, and how we're all part of the body and re electted to General Synod, and there are so many moving parts in the Church of England, Although many of the parts don't move at all, that's part of the problem. Um. it's really easy to say. Hey, every one my thing is should be your thing, Um, and I think that's kind of one of my big. Uh, it sounds like skeepticism. Um. but I don't mean it to be when someone says Uh, there is a huge crisis facing the nation and it is mental health and I've just said, Actually, I think it's physical health. I think the two are linked, but it's not for me to say. no. No, no, your thing isn't important. Mine is the main thing is. I, no know. that's really important too. And actually, I think we've been called to raise awareness about both, and it's not a zero somem game of attention, Although obviously often seems like that. Um. so it just feels like the. the problem is that people are finding creative ways of shouting loudest to raise attention for the thing that they're most passionate about, And the way to do that is to say this is the most serious problem facing our society. Um, and actually, Croon's disease sounds quite bad. Um, and lots of people manage it,

[barry_cooper]: 1:21:48

hey?

[james_cary]: 1:21:49

but I feel for the people who are trying to raise awareness about Crone's disease, because there are so many other people with more money who are raising awareness about their thing. But we do this with all kind of things where it's like. Oh, I'm really into this. You should be really into this. Well, No, but we're all part of one body and it's a bit like the culture war. We're all doing different things. Some of us are writing stories. Other people are disseminating them paying for them. Um, you know doing Bible teaching, raising an army, raising kids, all that kind of stuff. You need loads and loads of specialists all working together in the cause of one thing, And we can only do that and trust each other to follow their calling and to trust the God who is called them. to not then get cross with each othercause. They're not doing our thing.

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:40

yeah, right, right,

[james_cary]: 1:22:40

If that makes sense,

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:42

yeah. the yeah. you don't want lots. You don't want the feet sing to the hand. Could you be a bit more footycause? You law walking. you'll be walking well, picking things up not so

[james_cary]: 1:22:47

Hm,

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:52

good.

[james_cary]: 1:22:53

not so good.

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:53

Yeah. sorry. I.

[james_cary]: 1:22:56

so I think we've got that

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:56

yeah.

[james_cary]: 1:22:57

going on in society a lot.

[barry_cooper]: 1:22:58

Yeah, No, definitely is pridest state of mind or something. You do. stroke. say's both, isn't it? I mean, I would say

[james_cary]: 1:23:13

Proud people find it easier to succumb to the temptation of pride. Humble people often submit to the sin of pride, but less often because they are more humble.

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:23

h.

[james_cary]: 1:23:25

Um, but they might be gloluttons

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:28

yeah.

[james_cary]: 1:23:29

De. I mean

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:29

yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:23:30

um, and the humility may just be partly low self esteem. Uh, but wow, that's

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:38

Mhm.

[james_cary]: 1:23:39

probably another podcast. isn't it?

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:41

Yes, the ween child thing is a good image. I think to end on S Marin. Thirty one. Be good to be a wean child, wouldn't it? I'm not an expert on weaning, but it seems like that thing of dependency.

[james_cary]: 1:23:52

Well, you got two kids under five, so presumably you have you know some

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:56

I've seen examples of it. Yes, yes,

[james_cary]: 1:23:57

experience.

[barry_cooper]: 1:23:59

yes, um, great, James. Um, happy birthday for the other day, By the way, and Um

[james_cary]: 1:24:06

Thank you. Your birthday is to come, and there shall be much rejoicing.

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:10

and merrymentte will be made. That's right. I'm thanks for listening and sticking with us and patrons. Thank you for your very much appreciated. Uh support. as always. Ah

[james_cary]: 1:24:20

Some have joined us as well. Um,

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:23

shouldll. we

[james_cary]: 1:24:24

who who we got?

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:24

name names, not full

[james_cary]: 1:24:26

We could. We could name names,

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:26

names. obviously, but

[james_cary]: 1:24:28

Uh use using first names. Uh, I've got. uh. I've got Patrick and I've got Grace, who have probably not stuck to the very end of this. Uh, because I' just thinking. Wow, as this is this, it, Uh, but

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:44

right,

[james_cary]: 1:24:44

if you have made all the way to the end of this, Patrick and Grace, this is it. I'm so sorry.

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:52

yes,

[james_cary]: 1:24:53

Uh, there's also Cloy as well as joined

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:55

Mhm,

[james_cary]: 1:24:56

in, and Joanna and Blair,

[barry_cooper]: 1:24:57

Blair as well. I think yet.

[james_cary]: 1:24:59

y,

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:01

Yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:25:01

Um, and ahbrton, Uh was early this month, Um, and ahbrton, Uh was early this month, and a Jan as well. Uh, so it's just great.

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:10

it's lovely to have you. thanks for jumping on board.

[james_cary]: 1:25:13

Yeah, we should have thank it at the start. Really, when you might have actually been listening, But uh,

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:16

I know I know, but

[james_cary]: 1:25:17

well,

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:18

anyway, thanks for listing this far. Uh, we are couper and carry, have words for See you again

[james_cary]: 1:25:25

we have had many words.

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:26

who we have had many ways, and hopefully God willing, we will uh, speak again in a couple of weeks time,

[james_cary]: 1:25:32

If that all tarries and we discovered two weeks ago that he probably will.

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:39

and

[james_cary]: 1:25:40

Barry refuses to be drawn.

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:41

and also with you

[james_cary]: 1:25:42

Barry remains a millennial. That's all right. That's okay that we have other things to fall out

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:44

Stic. Yeah, yeah,

[james_cary]: 1:25:47

about

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:48

yeah, sure,

[james_cary]: 1:25:49

Cheery every one

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:49

Barbar

[james_cary]: 1:25:50

go bye.

[barry_cooper]: 1:25:54

are going to hit the stop.