Living Out Loud: Retirement Without Apology

The SeniorLivingGuide.com Podcast welcomes bestselling author and retirement happiness expert Tom Marks for an enlightening conversation about embracing individualism in retirement. Drawing on personal stories, thought-provoking quotes, and decades of professional experience, Tom Marks shares how retirees can shed societal expectations and rediscover their unique identities after a lifetime defined by career, family roles, and possessions.

Listeners will hear anecdotes ranging from Tom Marks's family history with Orville Redenbacher to playful discussions about fashion and music preferences, all underscored by a heartfelt message: retirement is a time to step to your own rhythm. Darleen Mahoney and Tom Marks delve into topics such as ageism, media stereotypes, the impact of social media, and the bittersweet realities of modern technology, including the rise of AI. Through relatable examples—including memories of a spirited grandmother and the joys of comfortable clothing—they remind seniors that it's never too late to live life unapologetically, pursue passions, and find genuine happiness.

Whether you're newly retired, contemplating future transitions, or simply seeking encouragement to remain true to yourself, this episode offers wisdom, humor, and actionable takeaways for living out loud.

SeniorLivingGuide.com Podcast sponsored by Best-selling Retirement Author,Tom Marks & TerraBella Senior Living

Links to connect with Tom Marks: Coming of Age in Retirement & The Peaceful Retiree

 The background music is written, performed and produced exclusively by purple-planet.com.
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SeniorLivingGuide.com Webinars and Podcast represents the opinions and expertise of our guests. The content here is for informational and educational purposes. It does not necessarily represent the views, recommendations, opinions or advice of Fairfax Publishing/SeniorLivingGuide.com or its employees

Transcript

Darleen Mahoney [00:00:02]:

And today we are joined by Tom Marks, who is the leading voice of retirement happiness and bestselling author of the number one book on retirement in America, the number one mental health book, the number one philosophical memoir, and the number one bestselling book on aging, Coming of Age in Retirement: An Advertising Executive's Story of Enlightenment and Revelation. Thank you for joining us today. I'm so excited to talk to you again.

Tom Marks [00:00:32]:

Well, I'm excited to see you, to be available to your listeners and viewers if we're going to be on video. And it's always a big and important part of my day when I can do not just a podcast, but your podcast, Arlene.

Darleen Mahoney [00:00:54]:

Oh, it's, you know, we love that you're on our podcast, and, um, we love the book and the information and all the inspiration that you share with seniors going into retirement and those that are in retirement that are still trying to figure it out.

Tom Marks [00:01:07]:

So yeah, welcome to the club.

Darleen Mahoney [00:01:09]:

I know, right, right. Well, I did want to ask you a question, and this is super off topic about what we're going to talk about today, but I heard a little rumor about, um, your family and a relationship to Orville Redenbacher. Can you tell us that? Because I just thought it was so fascinating.

Tom Marks [00:01:29]:

Yeah, so, um, I mean, I, I've written about this obviously, and I, I enjoy telling this story so much because, um, I, I was so close to my parents. They're both deceased, and And my father was a pretty, pretty famous advertising guy in the '60s, '70s. And he was in Chicago and he had left his agency, which was Foote, Cone Belding, which is this huge multibillion-dollar agency, and set up his own shop. But he specialized in the food and drug business. And Orville Redenbacher, who was a graduate, an ag graduate of Purdue University, lived in Valparaiso, Indiana, and he had a company called Red Bow Popping Corn where he had some seeds and he put them in a little plastic baggie and he sold them to taverns. So that they could have a better quality popcorn. And it went nowhere for about 10 years. And he got the name of my father, Melvin Marks. And my father drove down to Valparaiso, which is only a little over an hour from Chicago. And they sort of struck this deal. And my father came back a month or two later and said, look, I want you, I want to call this Orville Redenbacher's gourmet popping corn. I want to put it in a glass jar, which was unheard of. I mean, the shipping costs and the packaging costs, you know, and I want to triple the price of the leading brand, which was Jiffy Pop. I don't know if you're too young to remember that. No, we did Jiffy Pop. Yes, you are. Anyway, you shook that thing, you know, over the stove and then there was this thing, this foil bulbous thing that You know, people burned their hands on it. So anyway, so he came back and he said, oh, I'm going to get a sketch artist and we're going to draw you and put you on the label. And obviously the rest is history. And Orville Redenbacher ultimately sold that— I mean, in the '80s, I think, for $40 or $50 million to Hunt Wesson. So yeah, my dad was behind that.

Darleen Mahoney [00:04:03]:

I love that. That's such a great story.

Tom Marks [00:04:05]:

It is a great story until my father, you know, told me years later, I never knew the punchline, which was he was stiffed. Oh. I know. So he only got, well, he got 3/4 of his fee.

Darleen Mahoney [00:04:24]:

That's what reminds me of the story on McDonald's. I don't know if you ever watched that documentary, but Um, that's kind of what happened to the founders, the original OG McDonald's.

Tom Marks [00:04:35]:

Yeah, that's right.

Darleen Mahoney [00:04:36]:

So yeah, always good to have a good lawyer. Well, I know that, um, you and I have talked a little bit about, um, individualism and being an individual person as you retire, because we have so many roles as we're, you know, you're a child, you become a teenager, you become— you're a dependent, you become a parent, you become a mother, and you have to really play into a lot of those roles. But you and I were just chatting a little bit about once you go into retirement, you don't have to like stick with all the expectations and all the roles that you've been really kind of doing your whole life.

Tom Marks [00:05:21]:

Right. So, you know, we are defined Throughout our entire lives, whether we want to be or not, or whether we know it or not. We're defined as infants and adolescents by our parents. We're defined by our possessions and our careers and our profession and our education. And there's no way out of it. But when you're retired, you're not as defined. You're not defined by your profession. It's gone. You're not defined by the accumulation of all this stuff, you know, that's either in the garage or in the attic. And, you know, and we're not trying necessarily as hard to keep up with the Joneses, or we shouldn't. And it's the one time in our lives when we retire that we should be as individualistic as we possibly can, where we do the things we want to do when we want to do them. For whatever reason we want to or wherever we want to, because we shouldn't, again, be defined by any guardrails or any societal or cultural beliefs. We need to do whatever we want to do. And in fact, I want to read you only because I probably would have to paraphrase it and screw it up. But there's this wonderful quote by Henry David Thoreau. And when I first saw it, I thought of you. And I think there's a little bit of you, Darlene, in this quote. There's certainly a lot of me in this. And Thoreau said, let me just see if I can find this. But Thoreau said, he said, I can't find it. He said, "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away it is." Isn't that wonderful?

Darleen Mahoney [00:07:36]:

Yeah, it really is. I mean, I just love the symbolism. Yeah, I mean, in the way he describes it.

Tom Marks [00:07:44]:

Right. It's our time. I mean, we shouldn't be categorized or put into any of these demographic groupings. And, you know, one of the things we were talking about, since we're both from the ad profession, I mean, you're still in it. I'm not. But ad agencies, which was my, you know, my business have stereotyped us and grouped us together. And there's this cohort of seniors that demographically is defined as people who are 55 plus. So 55 to 95, that's a 40-year, 40-year swing. I mean, I'm not doing in my 70s what I did when I was in my 50s. And I sure wish I'd be able to do in my 90s what I'm doing now, but I doubt it. So we've been grouped together, we've been stereotyped. And in my book, I wrote, you know, incessantly, because I needed to really prove it, how advertisers and ad agencies stereotype us with, you know, being sad and lonely with brown spots and wrinkles and gray hair and And that's not the case. And but it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I just think it's our time. It's time we do whatever we want and dress the way we want. I mean, look at my— look at these crazy pants I'm wearing. I mean, you know, I mean, we— that's— oh my goodness. I know. These are from that Wild store in Nashville where all the musicians go. Imogene and Willie, I think it's called. I can't remember. But I mean, who says we can't do this stuff? I mean, we can do whatever we want to do. So there, I said it and I ranted.

Darleen Mahoney [00:09:45]:

You know what? You're 100% right. I do think that, you know, we have an expectation of older people as grandma, grandpa, right? They're older, they're older people. They, you know, all the different things. And clearly some of these folks are They are grandma and grandpas, but that doesn't mean that they have to have that part where they're, they're frail or they're dependent or whatever the case may be. You know, one thing about my grandmother is my grandmother lived to be in her late 90s, and that woman did not stop. She was impressive. She wore me out, and it was because she was living her life, and honestly, she lived it the the way she wanted to, because I can tell you, she was crazy, but crazy in the best of ways. But she really did live and do and say exactly what was on her mind. And I know some people find that, you know, a little bit much. But I do think that it was just such an inspiration to me to see her live her life that way, that that's my intention as well.

Tom Marks [00:10:54]:

That I can see that. I can see you're going to be that way if you aren't already.

Darleen Mahoney [00:11:01]:

I definitely am on the inside. But life, definitely, you know, in my current state, as far as, you know, working full time and all the things that still go along with not being retired, you do have limitations on some of those things as far as, you know, your expression and that, you know, what you can wear. I will tell you, the crazy thing is you sharing your pants.

Tom Marks [00:11:27]:

Well, yeah, I mean, it's got to be a first on your podcast.

Darleen Mahoney [00:11:30]:

I 100%, I absolutely have gotten to the place where I'm going to dress the way I want to dress. And I'm, I'm, I've gotten to where if it's just not cotton, I don't want to wear it. If it's not comfortable. Now, I still think I look cute because I'm a girl. I mean, I have those goals. But at the end of the day, if it's not comfortable, I don't want to buy it. I don't care what brand it is. I don't care who else is wearing it. I don't care if it's in fashion. I'm just, you know, I have a goal to just be comfortable no matter what I'm doing or where I'm going.

Tom Marks [00:12:04]:

Yeah, I think that I'm going to toss in a little social media into our conversation because, I mean, we know that social media has done as much to pull us together as it has to break us apart. And a lot of social media, particularly Facebook, which does skew— I mean, my kids wouldn't, you know, they don't even know what Facebook is. Nope. I mean, it's all, you know, TikTok and Instagram and whatever. But there's so much stuff on Facebook about how we're supposed to be. And, you know, all this one-upmanship. I went, you know, here and I got these photos. And I think that's actually been a little detrimental to our individualism because, you know, we're grouped together with however many people are on Facebook that are 55+, millions, tens of millions. And those are just outside influences that don't help us be individuals. And I'm not talking about individualism as being independent. That's something else, particularly in retirement, where, you know, sometimes you lose your independence to be, you know, healthy and mobile and stuff like that. I'm talking about being an individual and speaking up for ourselves. And as we've discussed, Seniors in the United States own 70% of everything.

Darleen Mahoney [00:13:48]:

Everything.

Tom Marks [00:13:50]:

Mind-boggling. It's unbelievable. And I mean, so we own 70% of the hoodies that, you know, our grandchildren are wearing. I mean, of the cars we bought our children when, you know, they were 17 or 18. I mean, we own 70% of everything and over 50% of the disposable income in the United States is controlled by seniors. We're the ones supporting movie theaters and retailers and bowling alleys and curling clubs now that we're in the Olympics. But people forget that. And I think we don't know that. So it's our time. You know, I told you that I'm working on an article for you that I've been working on forever called Retirement Is Hot Right Now, Don't Get Left in the Cold. I will finish it, I promise. But retirement is cool now. I mean, I've got, you know, I think we might have talked about this, but, you know, my children say that their friends wish their dad was as cool as me. And, you know, I just say, oh boy, then they might not— they must not be really cool at all. You know, because I'm not. But I mean, that's flattering. Yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:15:19]:

You know, 100%.

Tom Marks [00:15:22]:

100%. So, but, you know, when I go to the gym and, you know, everybody's half my age or less. You know, they're talking about, oh, you know, it's only Wednesday. Or, you know, I tell them, look, I don't even know what day it is. And the only way I do is because I, if it's Friday or Saturday, I have to make a dinner reservation. You know, that's the only way I know what day it is. And they're like, oh, I'm so jealous. And it's like, yeah, well, don't forget, I also worked for 48 years. Yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:15:58]:

You were on the hamster wheel like we've talked about.

Tom Marks [00:16:01]:

I was on the hamster wheel. And, uh, But I got off. Yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:16:06]:

Yeah. You got off the hamster wheel and you're a much happier person for it.

Tom Marks [00:16:10]:

Yeah. So I know I probably, we probably talked about this on the last podcast or for anybody that's read my book, I was, I was as a business owner and, you know, an owner of this global communications company. I had no life. I mean, I had all these employees and the employees had families and sometimes those families had families and I felt I was on the hook. I mean, I was supporting these people and I know there are employers that might not feel that way, but I did. And I just, I really had no other life except my business life. And, you know, this gets back to the whole expression that I think I created, but I'm not sure. You know, who are we when we are no longer who we were? And I was nobody. I mean, it didn't matter if I was, you know, directing national TV commercials. Hell, people wouldn't even, you know, remember those commercials anymore. You know, they just joke and say, oh, it was probably in black and white. Or something like that.

Darleen Mahoney [00:17:24]:

Well, some of them, I think, are very nostalgic to some of us that are in the older generation, not the newbies. But some of those are just nostalgic. And we always— I think we think back and we think it was a much simpler time. And some of those commercials were just feel-good.

Tom Marks [00:17:43]:

Yeah, well, they weren't created by AI. They were created by hard work.

Darleen Mahoney [00:17:48]:

And yeah, and using your noodle, I think that, you know, the critical thinking is—

Tom Marks [00:17:54]:

Yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:17:54]:

Yeah. That's a different subject, Tom.

Tom Marks [00:17:56]:

Well, I could go into— well, I am going to go into my AI rant because I think there are— it's bittersweet for me because I do believe that technology can change the world. I really do. I think, you know, medically, pharmaceutically, I mean, science, I mean, it can. But when I give a speech and people always ask me about AI, I can't get out of it. But, you know, I tell them that the one thing that bothers me right now, and I think it'll change, is ask your AI bot, you know, whoever you use, what it's like to lose a child. And then ask it, how does it feel Dancing your first slow dance to the Beatles' Hey Jude, and then ask what it was like to meet the love of your life the first time and your heartbeat, because AI doesn't have a heartbeat yet, right? And it can't answer those three questions. So I get all these emails from people, oh, I really— I asked what it's like to leave lose a child, and it came up with, you know, this just general, oh, it's the saddest day, you know, you'll never forget it. But it's got nothing to do with how we feel. So I, as a writer, you know, I don't use AI, but I see so many wonderful possibilities. But it's not, it doesn't have a heartbeat yet. So there's my AI rant.

Darleen Mahoney [00:19:38]:

No, I 100% agree with you. And it is scary that there are people that are lonely in the world that are utilizing AI as companions.

Tom Marks [00:19:50]:

So, well, this is why I like talking to you so much, because, you know, we can say, let's just talk about this. Yeah. And that goes out the window at about 8 seconds. So I enjoy being able to talk about whatever you want to talk about.

Darleen Mahoney [00:20:11]:

Yeah, no, I, I like the fact that we can talk about that too. And I know that AI is not something we were going to talk about, but that's something that's, you know, for our older generation, for our seniors, and it's— it can be a little bit scary. And then trying to really understand how it works, I think it's something that people are still doing those Google searches, which I think that I love the old school Google because I've been doing it for so long. But when Google first came out and all the things online, it was kind of scary. So we're going back into another age of kind of scary technology-wise.

Tom Marks [00:20:52]:

Yeah. So I do think— I mean, I can make our AI, our quick AI conversation relevant. And say that that does take away some of our individualism. I mean, because what AI is doing is it's scraping the web and, you know, it's collecting all this stuff and putting it into a bite-sized digestible piece of information for us. But it's not us. It's not me. And what is me is not you. And what's you is not your neighbor. So there is that sort of dilemma that we face that as great as AI is, it does affect our individualism.

Darleen Mahoney [00:21:38]:

100%. 100%. Even rewriting emails or putting in notes or asking for different things as far as, you know, making your calendar or things like that. Sometimes I think that it gets— there's no personal touch, there's no heartbeat to it.

Tom Marks [00:21:55]:

Right. So that's the writer in me saying, you know, we got to be careful because we don't want to be reading the same thing over and over again that's, you know, been scraped by the web. But I don't use AI to write. So not even an email.

Darleen Mahoney [00:22:14]:

And I don't lip sync in the car. I'm just kidding. I sing as loud as I can and as obnoxiously as I can, as long as there's no one else in the car.

Tom Marks [00:22:24]:

If you had only one group, band, that you could listen to for the rest of your life, what musical group would that be?

Darleen Mahoney [00:22:39]:

To be banned?

Tom Marks [00:22:40]:

No, what band? What music? Oh, what band? Yeah, if you could only listen to one. I mean, like, who's your favorite favorite?

Darleen Mahoney [00:22:49]:

That is like an impossible question.

Tom Marks [00:22:51]:

That's like the people that ask me, if you could only eat one food or one ethnic food for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:01]:

Yeah, I couldn't answer that one either because, you know, variety is the spice of life. So I think that—

Tom Marks [00:23:07]:

So if you're going to sing in the car, who do you want to sing to?

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:17]:

Hmm. I'm thinking, I don't even know if I want to say this out loud, but I love a good Pink jam.

Tom Marks [00:23:23]:

Well, Pink can sing.

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:24]:

She can sing and she is women empowerment all day long.

Tom Marks [00:23:28]:

Oh, 100%. I mean, Pink, Adele.

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:33]:

I mean, she's got a great voice.

Tom Marks [00:23:36]:

Yes. I mean, and Gaga. I mean, those are 3 voices from heaven. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:47]:

I've gotten to where I'm listening to a lot more Adele these days. She's just—

Tom Marks [00:23:52]:

her voice is incredible. It's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing.

Darleen Mahoney [00:23:56]:

Oh my gracious. So one of the things when we're talking about— I know we were on the topic of individualism. Do you think that, you know, kind of how I described my grandmother as far as someone that just did what she wanted to do, said what she wanted to say. Do you think that that's something that, like, society as a whole pushes back against, or do you think it's something that's more accepted as you get older? And that's an expectation kind of from society, I guess, is what I'm getting at.

Tom Marks [00:24:29]:

I think society pushes back on individualism in ageism.

Darleen Mahoney [00:24:36]:

Oh, for sure, on ageism.

Tom Marks [00:24:38]:

Yes. And so I think there's so many examples of that. I mean, you could see an 80-year-old on a Harley or, you know, some guy trying to be a younger guy. And I mean, I get all that. I mean, that's not me. And I don't know that that's individualism, but that's their way of expressing it. So I do think there is pushback on people who are older, who dress the way they want to dress, say the things they want to do, do the things they want to do. But in the end, that might be jealousy.

Darleen Mahoney [00:25:20]:

Well, my thought is, who cares?

Tom Marks [00:25:23]:

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:25:24]:

And I mean, I mean, I think that I'm glad that people are doing that. And I just hope that they they can have that who cares, and they don't let societal norms or what younger people try to impose on them alter their desires to be individualistic. Because life is very short. I know the term YOLO, you know, you only live once, um, is true. It's 100% true. And I think as you get older, your opportunities, you know, based on your health and Sometimes economic restrictions, if you're, you know, you didn't, you know, have a large 401(k) and you're more on the Social Security side, or you're, you know, those different, or you're dependent on your family, it limits your ability to do some of the things that you wanna do, but that doesn't change you as an individual on your own expectations, your own heart, your own joy, the way you wanna kind of live out loud.

Tom Marks [00:26:23]:

That's right. Because, you know, we are at this— not you, but I'm talking about we when I shouldn't be talking about we when I'm talking about individualism. But we should be able to do whatever we want to do without any pushback. That's not going to be possible because there are always going to be people that trip us up. But now is our time to do that stuff. And I was talking to this guy who was thinking, I got to do this now because I'm not going to be able to do it in 5 years. Or, you know, if I don't, you know, do this today, what will tomorrow bring? And I think, you know, that's sort of defeatist. I mean, What— sure, I want to do all these things while I can still do them. But there are things like your grandmother was doing well into her 90s that weren't, you know, based on necessarily climbing Mount Everest and stuff like that.

Darleen Mahoney [00:27:38]:

No, no, no, no. Honestly, it was just living her life and leaving her house when she wanted to leave it, go visit who she wanted to go visit. If she wanted to do a little travel, she would. She would, she traveled, but she wasn't a huge traveler. She totally enjoyed it, but the things that were important to her, her church family, very important to her. But she was a little sassafras. I mean, she could, she would, things pop out of her mouth with no apologies. And she was never horrible or rude, I'm not implying that, but she really just was very herself.

Tom Marks [00:28:11]:

Yeah, and we shouldn't have to apologize for anything that we want to do. I mean, we've probably apologized our entire lives, whether we knew it or not, or, you know, we're fearful of pissing someone off, or, you know, we walk on eggshells way too many times. I know I did. Yeah. Particularly in our, you know, when you have clients. I mean, what can you do? But we now, now more than ever, people who are, you know, in their mid-60s and older need to, without fear of retribution or what people think, do whatever they want. So, you know, that's my thing right now, in addition to all my other stuff. But that's really what I'm writing about and talking about, that it's our time, you And we need to make the most of it because, you know, life is an endless odyssey.

Darleen Mahoney [00:29:15]:

Exactly.

Tom Marks [00:29:16]:

Exactly.

Darleen Mahoney [00:29:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is such a great conversation.

Tom Marks [00:29:21]:

Well, we're just, you know, conversing.

Darleen Mahoney [00:29:24]:

I know. I know. And I really want to empower our listeners to be individualistic, to live their life out loud, to be non-apologetic for the choices that they make. So I think this was a good conversation, and I'm hoping that our listeners can kind of take a little bit of that and find empowerment in it.

Tom Marks [00:29:45]:

Yeah, that would be great because, you know, anything that you, Darlene, put out there is going to have an impact on people. You're an influencer. And my days of being an influencer are probably over, but—

Darleen Mahoney [00:30:06]:

I would not say that.

Tom Marks [00:30:07]:

I said it. But, you know, the fact of the matter is we really should do what we want to do. And it's— we should be able to do that throughout our lives, but we're not. But now we really are. And I hope your listeners understand and take, take this initiative to heart. And, you know, who cares? Just do whatever you want to do. We've earned it.

Darleen Mahoney [00:30:41]:

I like it. I like it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love— this has been so much fun. I wanted to tell our listeners that if you want to learn more about Tom. He does have his book that is now available. It's available on Amazon. The link is also going to be in the link to the description of the podcast, so you'll be able to click on it and find it there. And Tom is also our podcast sponsor, so, um, I do want to encourage everyone to kind of take a look at his book, um, and get some additional encouragement from that after this podcast. And he's coming out with a new book. What's the title of your new book?

Tom Marks [00:31:19]:

I have 2 books coming out. I can't believe this. I mean, it's— I'm literally working 30 hours a week. Wow. But I have a book, a similar book to Coming of Age in Retirement. It's actually been commissioned by the credit union industry, of which it's a big— there are 148 million members of credit unions in the United States. So I'm writing this book for them, which talks about there's more to retirement than financial planning, which is what any financial institution would sort of want you to do. And that's the right thing to do. But there's more to a happy retirement than just the money. So I'm writing that book and I hope that comes out in the summer. I don't know. I haven't done anything in the last 2 days, so I've fallen behind my 4,500 words a week that I owe my publisher.

Darleen Mahoney [00:32:23]:

Oh my goodness.

Tom Marks [00:32:24]:

Yeah. So I think I'll be working this weekend. And then I have a second book, as you know, and maybe if it's not a problem, if it is, it's not a big deal. I'm the editor-in-chief of this online retirement collective called The Peaceful Retiree. And there are about 24 authors that contribute to it. And we're coming out with an anthology of about 150 of their articles.

Darleen Mahoney [00:32:53]:

Oh, I love it.

Tom Marks [00:32:55]:

And I'm hoping— I think all the articles are due by the end of May. So maybe in September, this book will be out. And, uh, so, you know, then what? Right.

Darleen Mahoney [00:33:11]:

And we have included thepeacefulretiree.com as a link on the podcast, which you can, you can definitely check that out and get inspiration from others than just Tom. So yeah, yeah, that's a great opportunity. Yeah, great opportunity. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, and you will be on another podcast here soon. Soon, I'm sure, and we'll be talking about something completely different. Um, but until then, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please find us anywhere you enjoy podcasts, such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, GoodPods, all kinds of different places.

Tom Marks [00:33:48]:

Thanks.