The Legal Power Behind Safe & Proper Repair- w/ Sean Preston

**🎙️ Podcast Show Notes

If you think legal protection is just something “big shops” worry about, this episode may completely change your perspective. In this powerful conversation, Rick sits down with attorney Sean Preston from Cover All Law to break down one of the biggest blind spots in the collision industry: operating without a real legal strategy. Most shop owners focus on tools, tech, and cycle time, but Sean explains why the real risk often starts with paperwork, documentation, and getting paid correctly.

Together, Rick and Sean unpack the everyday pressure shops face between OEM repair procedures, DRP expectations, and insurer pushback—and why “safe and proper repair” isn’t just good business… it’s legal protection. They dive into the costly mistakes many shops make by staying reactive instead of proactive, and how strong intake procedures, clean documentation, and state-specific customer agreements can dramatically reduce liability.

The conversation also tackles cash flow and short-pay battles head-on with Sean’s “super bill” strategy, helping shops understand how to protect payment while still supporting customers through reimbursement. From Forever Forms to SOPs and stakeholder communication, this episode delivers practical, real-world advice every collision shop owner and leader can use immediately.

If you want more control, fewer surprises, and better protection for your business, your team, and your customers—this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

4 Key Takeaways:

• Protecting your shop legally starts before repairs begin—with the right paperwork and intake process.
• OEM procedures and proper documentation are your strongest defense against liability and short-pays.
• Insurers are bill payers—not repair decision makers. Your shop must own the repair process.
• Customer-pay and “super bill” strategies can improve cash flow and reduce payment stress when used correctly.

Guest Link: Sean Preston – COVERALL LAW

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-preston-ab81697a/

Email: spreston@coveralllaw.com

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Transcript

Cold Open On Getting Paid

Rick 0:00

I want to switch gears just a little bit. I I know there's a second piece to what you're doing that really I think is on the tip of everybody's tongue for collision owners. You know, there's been a lot of battles on getting paid correctly, okay? Or building the customer direct and waiting for them to get reimbursed. And there's been a lot of, I think, unnecessarily chewing of the nails and like, should I even try that? I don't want to piss off all my customers. I don't want to drive them down the street. But this is there's a big part to what you do with getting paid correctly. So you want to dive into that?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

So we can definitely talk about that and what a you know what a super bill is, the concept of a super bill, 100%. You know, one of the things to just to re-emphasize is it will never be our job to tell somebody how to run their business. So we work with the shops to develop how they want to get paid. And the first place we always stop is customer pace.

Rick 1:01

Welcome

Welcome And Why Legal Protection

Rick 1:02

to the Mind Rank Podcast with your host, Rick Deliver, where minor adjustments produce major improvements in mindset, personal growth, and success. This is the place to be every Monday, where we make small improvements and take positive actions in our business and personal lives that will make a major impact in our success, next level growth, and quality of life. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to the MindRedge Podcast. I'm your host, Rick Delore. Thanks so much for stopping in. If you're a returning listener and haven't done so already, please take a minute and click the follow or subscribe button and then rate and review the show. When you rate and review the show, the algorithms for Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, and all the other platforms will see that it's valuable and show it to more people that have never seen it before, and hopefully it can help them too. I would really, really, really appreciate your help sharing this word with your friends and family as well. And if you're a brand new listener, welcome. I hope you find something of value here that helps you in your personal or professional life as well. Please make sure to click the subscribe or follow button so you never miss another episode. If you've been listening to the show for a while, or been on the receiving end of my daily quote of the day emails, or maybe just catch my posts on Facebook or LinkedIn, you know I'm all about the quotes, right? If you'd like to start receiving my quote of the day emails, there's a link in the show notes to sign up. It's free and you can unsubscribe at any time. Joining us on the Mind Wrench podcast this week is someone that doesn't actually have any real superpowers and doesn't wear a cape like Superman or Batman. But to the hard working collision shop owners his company has helped so far, Sean Preston is indeed a superhero in his own right. In my forty five plus years in this industry, I have never seen anyone from the legal side of this trade kick down the door and start helping shop owners where they really need it most. Sean Preston, founder of Cover All Law, has been working hard to educate and work with Autobody Associations and shop owners with an intense passion to be part of the solution, to help keep them out of the darkest corners the repairers may see, and proactively prepare them in case they someday end up there. So, without any further delay, let's get to that interview. So uh let's welcome Sean Preston. I've covered a lot of the Shaw. Welcome, Sean. Appreciate you, Rick. Thank you. Just a quick little background, uh a couple points on Sean I thought was important was you know, he was trained by uh special forces when he was young. He's prosecuted white-collar crime, he's worked with family law, he's been all around the the um different avenues of law, and he's now the founder. Uh just two years ago, he founded Cover All Law specifically to help the collision industry, which is just fantastic. So thanks for for all you do for us right now, Sean. Appreciate it. I know you're just just getting going, but you've already done a lot of good. You've opened up a lot of eyes, and I know everybody wants to talk to you these days, right? There's a lot of work to be done. Yeah, I mean, and it's been going on for decades. So, you know, we got a boogie. And that's that's the funny thing, too. So I I wanted to share a just uh a thought I had as I was preparing for this. I've been in this industry uh a long time, right? And we focused like the last I don't know, last two decades, we focused a ton on protection, right, for our employees, for our workers, for for ourselves in the shop. You know, we we we focus on PPE and we focus on things like safety glasses and gloves and paint suits and fresh air respirators and those kinds of things. And lately, last couple of years, we've all we've also been um really working on uh educating ourselves and preparing to be safe uh with EV repairs, right? So electrical hazard safety, those kinds of things. We've done a pretty good job with uh being proactive with protection for ourselves and our employees on the shop floor when we're fixing cars, right? But what about proactive protection when it comes to our business, our livelihoods? So far, not so much, right? Collision repairs have really never given much thought to legal issues in our industries uh until that $42 million verdict for the John Eagle case in 2017, when it really became a stark reality that what we do to cars uh has some serious repercussions if they're not done right. Uh the collision industry, in my opinion, has historically been reactive uh when it comes to disputes, whether it's with a customer or a carrier, uh court actions, lawsuits, all that stuff. We are definitely on our heels trying to defend most times. Without the full documentation, we probably should have. And we're never in a leverage position with carriers, right? So intro, Sean, like a superhero flying in to save the day. Sean has brought to the industry uh some much needed help. So, Sean, could you just uh just give us a you know 50,000 foot uh background on how you ended up in collision?

SPEAKER_02 6:04

So um

Sean’s Road Into Collision Law

SPEAKER_02 6:05

you know my background's corporate law. I just always loved you know business. And um I grew up in a family that serves you know small business owners. So like a lot of um a lot of the folks we work with that you know grew up seven years old cleaning the shop floor, yeah. I had the same except it was an accounting office, uh, you know, running the uh running the vacuum, cleaning the floor in an accounting office. And it was every day after school when I was 13, um, there serving small business owners. So after the army, it was um pretty natural school and stuff to go right back to this. And in law school, it was pretty clear that those kind of classes uh made a lot of sense for me. So it's top in my class um in a number of classes that um just made sense for business. So, you know, we we see it in other areas, this concept called the revolving door, right? I I think we've noticed over the past at least 20 years that um that some of these, you know, departments of insurance in each state are are um, you know, less and less helpful to the to the consumers. It gets it can be really frustrating. And we say, my gosh, let's look at you know where these people uh used to work. Oh my gosh, they used to work in the insurance industry and they're gonna go back to the insurance industry after that's called the revolving door. I did the same thing. So I went to Delaware and said, all right, you know, let me be an assistant attorney general and prosecute white-collar crime. And that's when it was 2012, I um I told one of my mentors at DuPont, I said, we've got to find a way to take these best business practices and make them available to the small and medium-sized businesses that I grew up serving. So when the pandemic hit, and um we were living abroad as an international corporate attorney, came back to my hometown and um, you know, spent a year at a small little firm, you know, there and um and we grew our family and you know, relocated from Washington State to Massachusetts. I hit a deer. I hit a deer on the drive over. The first small business I met when I got to Massachusetts was a shop. They're an association member. And uh it didn't take long before my buddies at the shop were telling me some issues they were having.

Rick 8:18

Shocking, wasn't it, when you started hearing what the insurance company does to them and how they get treated. And it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head about being reactive, right? And so that's what uh it didn't take long to notice that every shop was being reactive. So it's oh darn, I got sued. Oh man, I just got this certified letter, or oh heck, I haven't got paid my whole invoice. And reactive in the legal sense is expensive, right? It's expensive in time and it is money. And my buddies got sued. There was no phone call, no demand letter, just oh, by the way, you've been served uh with this lawsuit. I looked at it and um I read it and I just said, like, this is bizarre because of my background in in working in big companies, global 500 companies. I looked at it and I said, no company would sue for this. Like I'd never seen, I didn't have any um history of working with insurers. And this is, you know, maybe four years ago now, four or five. I like um probably four, yeah. And I was like, this is this makes no sense. And so I dug into it for him, helped um make it go away. Now you talk about protecting yourself. Unfortunately, like we we couldn't, it wasn't worth fighting. Right. It was, you know, it was suing somebody over five grand. No company would do that. Uh so we, you know, we settled it for pennies on the dollar. But what I noticed is how hard that first year it was to serve collision shop owners.

Rick 9:44

We had to come up with a new solution. Right. You know, to your point, um, you know, nobody's gonna bother with $5,000 from the collision shop side, right? Most owners, you know, they do what they can for decades, they've done what they can just to get the car done, get it out the door, they'll take a little less pay, they'll do a few things for free. That's just been normal business, which is not normal business, but in this industry, it has been normal business for decades. So um, you know, you said you've worked for large international big companies and stuff. They know their laws, they know how to get paid, they know what they're responsible for and what they don't uh and what they're not. And this collision industry is definitely a different animal. So we really need someone with your perspective here, kind of enlightening some of these people that hey, those you know, the John Eagle case, that wasn't a fluke. Okay, that's just I'm surprised it took that long for that something like that to happen. So going forward, I really feel that you know, um shops should be educating themselves and protecting themselves. Um, like I said, you know, you can protect your employees from getting hurt, but what about you? If you're not protected, your employees aren't gonna matter because you won't have a business anymore if the if the suit is big enough, right? So um you know, I I saw you and and Sean, just so the audience knows, uh I met Sean probably I think last fall in uh Tennessee at an association meeting. And he was on a panel with Mike Anderson Mike Anderson and Dave Lew, and it was great. And after I was listening to some of the things he said, I'm asked, I gotta talk to this guy. He's he'd make a great guest on the podcast, and I think you know this this industry needs to hear from him. So uh a little slow to get this done, but I know you've talked with a lot of people and you're you're making a difference out there. And I saw you out at ASP in Illinois uh earlier this year, you talked about the three daily mistakes that shops make. Because is that something you can kind of touch on and give us an idea? I I think most of the shops don't know what they don't know, right? So kind of lead us down that path with what those three daily mistakes are. If you're running a collision shop, whether second generation, third generation, or original owner, grinding every day, putting out fires, chasing KPIs, working in rather than on the business, and wondering why progress still feels slower than it should, let's take a little pause right here. As a longtime industry supplier, performance coach, and host of this podcast, I've worked inside this industry for over four decades, and I've learned a few things the hard way. Tools and tactics absolutely matter, but mindset drives everything. How you think shapes how you lead, how you hire, how you grow, and how you show up when things get messy. That's where one-on-one coaching makes a difference. You get focused conversations, real accountability, and guidance tailored to you and your shop are not generic cookie-cutter advice. The collision repair business has changed dramatically in the last few years. Our technology, the tools, the equipment, need to repair today's new vehicles, customer expectations that vary by generation, OEM certifications and repair procedures, eight-as calibrations, electric vehicles, and the ever-growing national technician shortage, it's a lot, isn't it? It can be absolutely overwhelming and very challenging in where to focus first, right? If only I had someone who could help me find clarity in all the chaos. If only there was someone that could help guide me through the changes I need to make so I could create a successful business, increase my net revenue. If only I had a coach that could help me without getting in my way, or trying to run my business for me, or costing me a fortune. This is where I can help. The goal is simple. Help you make consistent improvements, build sustainable culture, gain better profitability, and shave years off the learning curve. If you're open to adjusting how you think and how you lead, book a free 15-minute discovery call with me right now. No sales pitch, no blue sky promises, just an honest conversation to see if it's a fit. You have absolutely nothing to lose but everything to gain. Secure a spot now.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

That was

Three Daily Mistakes Shops Make

SPEAKER_02 13:51

um that was a really cool undertaking for me and my team. So it was about a year ago at the Northeast show. I was watching a panel, and there was a couple things that the folks said on the panel that just blew my mind. I was like, these guys don't know what they don't know. Um, so I just really couldn't believe the things that they were saying. Um, and how like just I don't know if naive's the right word, or yeah, you know, just like this, just um, but a lack of of uh perspective on the legal issues that that they were facing in so many areas that these shops have, right? Because we had our you know, flagship program, the forever forms, is where we start. We own those terms and conditions, but there's so much more that needs to be done. And so, gosh, I wish I had I I wish I had the slides um just to show you right now, because we went through like hundreds of problems. And with those hundreds of problems, that that we would like here's the solutions, and then we would look at problems for each one of those. Well, what's what's the team at the shop going to say? Why do they think this won't work? What all needs to be done? And we came up with I think it was somewhere around, I want to say, uh, 40 to 50 areas that you needed to fix. And so this is a future solution for us, right? So we've got our, you know, the flagship program, the forever forms. Then we're gonna make an announcement this year at SEMA for our next solution. And then ultimately would be this one. And we called it the freedom formula. If you did all of these things in these three areas, that would um that would solve everything. And so, you know, the three areas were the ultimate legal high ground, and then it was stakeholder management. So the ultimate legal high ground is not just owning the terms and conditions, owning your pricing, right? How you set up your organization, your employee documents so that your people just they got to do the right things for the right reasons. The stakeholder management, that's where we want the insurers, we want every team member at the shop and your customers, they need to all be singing the same tune of a safe and proper repair. And then the third one is um is about cash, collecting cash. And it's about cash flow. And you need to have a um an SOP for how you guys are gonna collect it. You need to know how you're tracking it. And so it's if I solved all those areas, um, we could really, you know, make the shop, I guess, impenetrable. But when I want to highlight for the shops what they've been missing, it's those three daily mistakes. And you're not protected, you're not getting paid, and you're not empowered to do the repair the right way. So that's been our big goal, is that you know, basically, how do I solve everything? Right.

Rick 16:44

Yeah, in three easy steps, right? It's not gonna be three easy steps. But but those, and I would agree in my time in this industry, I've seen um you know, shades of all three of those things on a daily basis. Um,

SOPs And Owning The Repair

Rick 16:58

so let's let's go to um let's go to process. Okay, so um, you know, proactive protection, doing OEM repairs uh have a certain process, right? And if you're on a DRP contract, which a lot of shops still are, um they may spell out a different process, right? And then regular repairs that are DRP that you know you're your your your friends down the street or some family members or people that you know in other businesses bring in their vehicle to get repaired. Um is there is there a way to cover all these with a what you'd call safe and proper repair for these scenarios? Because I think process is probably our biggest enemy, and I know there's been a lot of focus on that right now. A lot of people, a lot of uh, a lot of associations, they have you know panel discussions about process. For the average Joe body shop that goes, Hey, I really need to protect myself. What should I do first? Does that seem like a good first step is figuring out what your what your process should look like? And is there a way to shape that or form that or make something that's a standard in your shop to at least address all three of those scenarios? OEM, GRP, and regular walk-in cash customers or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it starts with um with an SOP, right? It starts with your team and how do they in process, I mean, right, right, from beginning to end, how do they take care of that job? And right at that beginning, you gotta own the terms and conditions, right? So what's happened for decades is um, you know, insurers can cost shift, right? They can say, hey, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna pay you to, you know, I can't pay you to replace the um, you know, that quarter panel, but I throw a couple more hours on the hood. Dude, they can do whatever, they can do whatever they want, right? Oh yeah. Yeah, they're billpayers. So they can do that. The shop cannot do that. Yeah, the shop should never adjust their sheets to match the insurers, right? They shouldn't be um, you know, their final invoice has to be 100% accurate for what they did. And so that's how we've kind of gotten by. So then the real question becomes how do we make it to where we make it crystal clear that the shop is the authority, the shop is the one who says how this gets done, right? The shop's the doctor, right? The John Eagle case pointed that out. Yeah. It kind of gets lost to the shop. Yeah, doesn't it? Because people don't like conflict, because people are, you know, like, but there's not a single way to do it. That's one of the big things for cover all law is we say it'll never be our job to tell you how to run your business. And even in my past life, that was never my job to tell the CEO of Rolls-Royce how to run that business, right? My job was the, you know, his office next to mine, him barking down my neck saying, do this, that, the, you know. And my job is how? How can we make that happen? And too many, you know, there's only a dozen attorneys that have really been, you know, serving this industry. And what I've heard him say is, you know, you can't do that. Oh, that won't work, or you can't do this. I'm like, no, you really have to change your perspective if you're gonna be a corporate lawyer and say, how do we make that happen?

Rick 20:02

I would agree. So um, with that, um, and it's it's I'm shocked. I didn't know there was a dozen lawyers in this industry that serve this industry. I I know of one. I thought there's just one.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

So oh, I meant over the last you know 30 years, right? Right. Okay. Um well, there's my predecessor in mass, you know, Connecticut's got a guy. What's happened historically, and it's kind of funny. So I thought about this when you brought up John Eagle, too, is you've got these personal injury lawyers. And so historically, PI lawyers have said, boy, I wonder if I can get clients hanging out with these body shops. And so you've had, you know, like a dozen that have um tried it. And I think what they find out eventually is that you're not gonna get good PI cases from a body shop. The PI case you want, where somebody lost an arm or something, that that vehicle is not seeing a body shop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a different customer. They're going somewhere else. And then the only reason I think that John Eagle took so long is probably, I would say, due to some laziness on the part of PI lawyers, right? So the shops see what I think they might call laziness in lawyers not wanting to learn the property damage side, looking at a claim for a shop and saying, you know what, this isn't worth pursuing, not helping the customers because like, dude, yeah, you got short paid $1200. Nobody, you know, no lawyer's gonna take that case.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

But the those PI lawyers that want, dude, I want to write demand letters. I got a process here, and then you just I just collect, you know, I collect medical bills and then I send a demand letter and I beat up the insurer, and that's how I get paid. I don't know that until the John Eagle case, I don't know that they took the time to say, oh my gosh, I wonder if that vehicle was ever repaired. I wonder if I can get at the insurance policy covering the shop and the shop's liability. You know, it was there under their nose the whole time. Just didn't look. It just didn't look amazing. Most of them, most of them still. Looking except Tracy, right?

Rick 22:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I met him and listened to his presentation as well. Uh-huh. Um, so with with this, this kind of led you down the path of creating this what we call forever form, right? So,

Forever Forms And Compliance Basics

Rick 22:13

can you explain a little bit what this forever form is and what it does? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

So, um, I mean, a lot of people don't know this, but cover all law was officially started a little over three years ago. So I um hopped in with another firm that fought insurance companies, mostly towing, and did towing stuff nationwide. And towing made sense, right? There's an $80,000, you know, tractor trailer rollover. You're gonna hire a lawyer to chase $80,000. But again, you get a $1,200 short pay, a $2,000 short pay. Like it does not make a sense, you know, it doesn't it doesn't make sense, right? Right for grabbing a lawyer for that. So um started cover all eyes that boy, we've got to figure something out. Don't know how it's gonna be. Then getting involved with the association was step one. And um, and the forever forms ended up being the tool we needed in order to take that step. So every dollar coming through a shop represents unlimited liability. And I, in my background, had built you know, customer agreements for um a couple of companies big on contracts, number one in my class. And contracts are really kind of one of my big specialties. From there, I said since every dollar coming through the shop represents that unlimited liability, we have a right and I would say a responsibility to own the terms and conditions of every dollar. So the forever forms combine three things. That's how we own those terms and conditions. It's that Fortune 500 level development, number one. Uh, number two, they are being tested right now every day at 70 locations. And then number three is that they're updated for life. That's why they're the forever forms. So we were in court two days last week on the forever forms and um got to watch how the court looked at them, what they thought of them, how they sliced and diced them. And then from there, we get to update them um to the benefit of everyone that's on the program and anyone that comes on the program in the future. Those are the things that cover all that's our responsibility. Our job, we want to focus on, you know, we want the shops to focus on what they do so we can focus on what they don't.

Rick 24:19

Right. So you're actually actually getting live feedback on those now in court cases. Uh yeah, yeah. Okay. And and you see that working in the shops' behalf, right? 100%. Yes. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. So what what does a what does a forever forum include?

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Um so I it wasn't, it wasn't just me, um, because I was so new to the industry. I knew a lot of the best practices. There were a lot of things that I'd picked up over years working in um, you know, in in corporate law. But it was a group of seven attorneys, myself included, familiar with you know, the industry, put all of our work product together. Our wish list after seven months of putting that together was um over 40 pages. Now, yeah, right. We we don't expect, you know, it was just like everything you need, nothing you don't. This is yep, this is everything we'd have. I'm like, cool. I don't think we're gonna be asking our customers to sign a 40-page document. They're gonna feel like they're taking out a second mortgage on their house, you know. So um I did the final drafting of it. I drafted it down to three pages, everything you need, nothing you don't. These are state specific. So we started in Massachusetts, where I was uh where I live now, where my wife is from and where we're raising our kids. And so it's three pages, everything you need, nothing you don't, actually, nine forms in one. And since everybody in the shops who'd come to me was just, they were, they didn't, they were dead in the water every time they came to me because this is a highly regulated industry. Oh, yeah. When you are not compliant with every single thing that you're supposed to be doing, you're dead in the water. That's a consumer protection act violation. You know, our answer, my old firm to collision shops was the same every single time. It was pull out your checkbook. We got to make this go away. You know, so from that, um, we said, look, I want you compliant in one signature. I remember my old firm in a court case trying to go, you was compliant, and it took 13 different exhibits. Here's a picture of the wall, here's a piece of the file, here's all these different things to say why my folks don't have what's called unclean hands, right? That you know, you shouldn't even be here in court because you didn't do something right. I said, nope, I can do that in one exhibit. And, you know, knock on wood, since we released the forever forms uh a little over two years ago, maybe almost two and a half years ago, coming up on um, since then, compliance has not been challenged a single time where there is a forever form. You can see right there everything you're supposed to do, state by state. Yeah. I mean, it and now, so to grow the mission, we've actually just opened up our 11th state. So those drafts just went out. Yeah. And um at any given time, we have up to five people for coverall law working compliance. So it's something that we take very seriously. It's where you start, right? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, right? So we got to make sure that we are protected, number one, right? Then it's empowered, then it's paid, right? Just making sure step by step, pants first, then shoes. All right. Right.

Rick 27:26

So how how are you choosing which states you work on next? Do you have a you have a map on that, or is it just where the need uh seems more urgent, that's where you're gonna go?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

So for the initial forever forms, you know, we took on all that investment. And so it was a little bit tough. It's about a year and a half ago where we saw, oh man, there's really a demand for this. And I say, here's what we're doing in Massachusetts, here's how it's working. And people are like, yes, that is what we need in other states. We didn't know how to do it. Um at first, we kind of toyed around with, all right, I need like 10 shops like gathered up in order for it to really be worthwhile for the investment. And I said, you know, we didn't do that in Massachusetts. We kind of took a step out there. So in any state where somebody signs up and says, hey, raise their hand and um and they make you know their investment, we match it and that becomes the next state. So we're not, you know, requiring someone to get it together. We know that these shops have serious needs and they got serious needs right now.

Rick 28:26

Yeah, every state does. Every state does.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

So it's just gonna be it's so and it's so interesting to see. I was just talking with somebody last night at dinner about this, about how each state has different little issues. Like these have developed state by state in a really fascinating way. Yeah.

Rick 28:44

Isn't it crazy to think a standard type of business like repairing an automobile has so much um variety in how it gets done, how it gets looked at, how it gets regulated, what the issues. It's just you know, I don't think you see that with you know a bank or a a manufacturer. I mean, they're all fairly consistently, you know, regulated and run. But man, this is just it's a unique bees nest, I think. So um, but I love this forever form idea. And I'd at some point I'd um I want to see what one looks like just so I can get it in my head. Oh, definitely, you know what that looks like. But uh that's awesome that you're doing that. So shifting gears just a little bit. So the forever form, that's a great way to protect you. And that's something done what at intake. So that that's your intake form if you're a shop owner manager. That's the only thing that you're gonna present to a customer before uh they're gonna hand you the keys to their to their vehicle, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

It's three pages, everything you need, nothing you don't. Um, one of those pages, typically the third, is the only one that goes to the insurance company. Okay. But um, but it covers a ton of stuff. So there's a really there's a pretty sophisticated shop owner out in California. California is the second state that we did.

SPEAKER_04 30:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

So Massachusetts has their own specific issues. It's uh, you know, and their issues is is labor rate is the big one.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

And then lucky a lot, so I know. Right? Yeah. Um, so we actually have the our labor rate case on the forever forms is set for trial uh later this summer. And and so it benefits it benefits every member, right? Where we just say, according to these terms and conditions, the rate's the rate, you know, let's stop playing these games. And that's the that is where we really start having fun is being able to pick the case that we want to take. You know, we get to do this now on our terms now. And it's just that's that's the whole point is you got to flip the game. But California, uh highly regulated state, the BAR, and um, so we took that on. Me and um, and it was two other folks, um, did California for cover all law. And it took about five, five and a half months to um put that together. The shop owner had been through two or three other law firms to develop forms in the past. And I set aside two hours for us to sit down and read, and we got them down to three pages as well, right? Three pages, um, but you know, it took some creativity there because it's actually two different documents because they want to do a teardown or inspection agreement in addition to the authorization, but we still got it to three pages.

Rick 31:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

I set aside two hours to read those three pages, but Rick, there is so much meat in there, and there's like each clause is really designed to cover two or three different things. We spent four and a half hours only reading three pages. All right. And there's a lot of this is not tiny little print. This is not what I mean, it's a these are easy on the eyes. I was three hours in, and I asked him, I said, Hey, I just want to take the temperature of the room, man. What do you think here? Right? Because we've been working on these things for months. And he said, he said, you're covering things that I've never considered. Like, he's just like, I'm blown away. And I was like, Oh, I was like, Can I quote you on that? So I was like, I wrote it down like because that is our job. That's our job. I think our team's up to maybe six people now. We're about to post for another uh attorney. Um, but you know, like I said, there's only been a handful of attorneys, you know, mostly guys, one or two uh ladies who have tried to serve this industry. Um I really it's important that we change the game. It's important that cover all law continues to invest in itself and continues to grow the mission. Um, you know, that's that's how we're doing it.

Rick 32:35

Absolutely. And and I John, I can I can't tell you enough how important that is to this industry to have somebody like you in cover all law spending the time focusing and actually having a plan of growth as you go to better serve the industry. That's it's really it's it's unprecedented so far. So I I I love I love what you're doing.

Super Bills And Customer Pay Strategy

Rick 32:59

I want to switch gears just a little bit. I I know there's uh um a second piece to what you're doing that really I think is on the tip of everybody's tongue uh for collision owners. Um, you know, there's been a lot of battles on getting paid correctly, okay, or building the customer direct and or you know, and waiting for them to get reimbursed. And there's been a lot of I think unnecessarily chewing of the nails and like should I even try that? I don't want to piss off all my customers, I don't want to drive them down the street. But this is there's a big part to what you do with um getting paid correctly. So you want to dive into that, maybe explain that absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a good point. Um, so we can definitely talk about that and what a you know what a super bill is, the concept of a super bill, 100%. You know, one of the things to just to re-emphasize is it will it will never be our job to tell somebody how to run their business. So we work with the shops to develop how they want to get paid. And the first place we always stop is customer pays. Okay. Now we all agree that the customer should not be out any more than their deductible if applicable, right? Yeah, right. And that's and that's their expectation. That's our understanding as well. Yeah. But the um, you know, but what the shop can do is say, hey, you know, the insurer's taking um a little longer than usual. I know you want your car back, right? Uh, if you want to pay that difference, we'll we'll do anything we can to help you make sure that you get reimbursed. Because the, you know, the reality is the shop must be paid. Hard stop. Right. The customer must be reimbursed, right? If they're going by insurance. And so those are two different things, right? You're in business to make money, you need to get paid. Right? The customers file, it's their claim. That's not yours unless we do some other magic there. Um, but it's their claim and they got to get reimbursed. So when you send somebody a super bill, that is a concept in insurance that is used in other areas of insurance, right? Okay. Automotive repair, property damage. Um, there's small dollar kind of property damage, and automotive repair has just kind of been beaten like the redheaded stepchild for decades.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Really?

SPEAKER_02 35:21

And um, and absolutely. Um, it's a profit center, you know, for insurers. And um, and even the folks at the insurance company, like they're indoctrinated into it as well. They don't realize that what they're doing is against the law. That's why we have to go to court and we have to say, sorry, this is against the law. But the first step when it comes to getting paid, have the customer pay you. All right. And then you give them three things. Okay. The first is a paid in full invoice. All right. So now they're showing the insurer, hey, I paid more than my deductible. You need to fully adjust this claim. That means you need to address this. The second thing is all the stuff that was done on the car. Here's the latest research, right? And those are the OE procedures, right? This is the latest research that says this is why all those things were done, right? If I didn't have that loss event, if I didn't have that claim, if I didn't have to go to that shop, none of that stuff would have had to happen. But I did it and I paid for it, right? You paid some, I paid the rest. The third thing is evidence. Evidence that each one of those things was needed, and evidence that each one of those things was done, right? So those are the before and after photos. Those that's the documentation. Oh, yeah, we are an eye death fender. Here's what it, you know, here's what that looks like. Here's why we had to do it. Sorry, that wasn't repairable, right? Because the OE says that when the paint breaks, yeah, you know, that that at that point, you are not filling it with mud and you know, and telling it to have a good life.

Rick 36:45

You know, like that's not gonna be it. So that actually circles back to the SOPs when we talked about process, right? So if you're gonna use a super bill, you better be documenting and doing all things correctly, right? Yeah. So okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

No, absolutely. And then you're also your SOP is your employee handbook. You know, there's some really good um folks out there that will come into your shop and help you with a handbook, right? And maybe someday, um, I don't know if we'd ever do that, you know, like you know, future as we continue to grow, or if that's something that we'd outsource because there are capable folks out there doing it. Um, but you basically, in the best way possible, you want to tie your employees' hands, help them out, right? So that just like an insurance adjuster will come in and say, dude, can't pay for that, man. My boss will not let me. Yeah, you your folks need to say, like, dude, I can't do an unsafe repair. Like, I literally am not allowed, right? Like, boy, if only I could put them in a death trap, you know, I'd love to, but you know, I just can't.

Rick 37:46

I hear you. Yeah, right. Sorry to disappoint. No, I I love I love the concept of that super bill, and I think that's something the industry's needed for a long time. I mean, I've seen invoices where it's you know, it's got a couple things on there, it doesn't really explain what got paid for. Then I've seen ones that are very detailed, and there shouldn't be that gap. It should be this is the only way you can invoice a customer. You know, it's just like you get anything else done professionally, usually you get a detailed invoice, right? Um, I don't know why for for whatever reasons we haven't done that, but uh it'll just drive the importance for shops to really start you know thinking about doing that. So I was gonna ask you too.

Options Playbook And What’s Next

Rick 38:26

Um, we talked about having a playbook uh a while back. We were talking about something. You said, you know, something that's really important is that shops should have a playbook. And what did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Well, I mean, a playbook can apply to any number of areas of the business. The the first one that we work on when it comes to getting paid is something that I borrow from my time in the army, which is pace, primary, alternate, contingency, and emergency, right? Okay, and so I the best thing that I can give to shops is options, right? As a business owner, you never want to feel like you're painted in the corner. Like that's what sucks.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

And I never, it's never my job to tell someone how to run their business. I want to give them options, and that's what that's the biggest thing that they need. Awesome. Love that.

Rick 39:12

With what you're doing and the difference that it's making and and what you're seeing, how badly this industry really needs a legal look at their business. Why do you think no other lawyers have ever looked at the collision industry just because they feel it was a uh it's a dirty, dirty industry, and there's no money to make there, and these shop owners will never do what we want them to do.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Or do you any concept or idea why you're really the first one in to do what so the traditional law firm, yeah, the traditional law firm model does not work for this industry. And so I don't think that um attorneys think it's a dirty industry. There are a couple that um feel that you know the industry is of ill repute. That's one one of the things that's important to emphasize, you know, for cover all law is one, you know, the requirements for anybody working with coverall law for, you know, because we only serve shops, we don't do anything else, but you've got to match our values. Quality, number one, integrity, number two, and mission number three. And so you have like we've we've removed um a shop from the Forever Forums before for playing games. They weren't, yeah, they weren't committing fraud, but they were flirting with it. And um, and I said, here's your money. I I said, I'm sorry, you're not a good fit at this time, you know, because we don't have to play. I tell my other attorney friends, I say, dudes, I've got the easiest job in the world because my clients are just right. But the traditional law firm model, to answer your question, they cannot make money uh in the traditional law firm model. So we had to have a hybrid. Now, this is something that uh was I was inspired with in Europe. So I, you know, things are done differently in Europe. They've got this is a highly regulated industry, the practice of law. We are the most highly self-regulated industry in the world, at least so I was told in law school. Um, but other professionals, they regulate themselves as well, you know. So, like um, for you know, doctors, the same kind of thing, you know, take away somebody's license for doing the wrong thing. Dentists is the same thing, right? But um, but with that, I've been working already for years. Before I hit that deer, I'd already been working for years on breaking the traditional law firm model. So that's what cover all law is designed to do. So anyone that is working with cover all law, they don't get there's no surprise bills, there's no billable hours for calling and talking to us. You know, we have a very different, um, different model. And so I think the real key to figuring out how to serve this industry was to be creative enough to figure out how can I keep the lights on and make sure that my kids don't starve uh with me serving this industry. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick 41:59

I haven't seen a picture of your kids. I mean, are they thin?

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Right. No, I mean they're like we're talking like East African thin. Like it's bad. It's real bad. Um, you know, the duck eats fine though. Yeah.

Rick 42:10

That's that's that's good. I I'm glad I'm glad it's working out. Um so as we uh I gotta wrap this up pretty soon here. So uh as we pare this thing down, um, what would be your if I had to say, you know, let's give me three of your top takeaways um that a customer should should go back to a shop with after listening to this and and uh really focus on uh the most important things he should focus on right now.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah, I I would say, you know, to any shop, I don't want you to be the cheapest, I want you to be the best, right? So not all shops are created equal. I think finding a shop that is willing to invest in itself is going to be an indicator that's a good shop. And any business that invests in itself needs to get a return on that investment, right? So that's the way business works. You get an ROI. So those are the things that I look at. And then just absolute clarity with the insurance process and a willingness to ask why or why not? Oh, we don't pay for that. Why? Right, oh, just because other shops don't charge that. Why? You know, the five whys get down and deep into this. Yeah, yeah, because I mean, to be honest, I'm just not satisfied. That doesn't make sense to me. Why? You know, and then and you know, and I love you know, a shop that is willing to educate you. You know, I recommend shops. I mean, throw a phone on a selfie stick so you can be in the frame, walk around the car, explain to your customers what a one time use part is, yeah, and then have the insurer try and explain why they think they should use it two times. Right. You know, like it's kind of the name, but that's a one use part. You're trying to asshor me 80 cents? What's happening?

unknown 43:55

Yeah.

Rick 43:56

I've seen a couple of our industry friends doing that too, which is awesome. So So I think a lot more of them need to, but yeah, that's the ball is rolling slowly, but the ball is rolling.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

So I love that. That's part of stakeholder management, right? That's stakeholder management. It's getting everybody on the same page. Yeah. Right. And in any conversation, in any debate, the first person that can frame what it is we're talking about has already won.

Rick 44:21

Yeah. You know, and the ultimately the uh the end user, the consumer wins when they do that. So because they're usually the one that, you know, yeah, a shop may have lost uh a couple thousand dollars on a repair, and you know, a technician didn't make enough money, you know, what he should have made for what he did. But in the end, when the job's not done correctly, when it's not paid for correctly, um, the end user really suffers. He got a less than correct repair. Uh, he's got some maybe some used parts and where he should have had OEM parts or you know, after aftermarket parts or whatever. So ultimately, I know the insurance doesn't really care about the consumer, they just like their uh their um you know yearly online. Yeah, they want their yearly investments from every consumer, but they don't really care about them. And uh unfortunately, it can sometimes uh make the shop look like the bandit when they really aren't. So two more questions. And this one I ask every once in a while to someone I'm interviewing is what's your greatest lesson you've ever learned?

SPEAKER_02 45:21

That's a good one. The greatest lesson I've always learned. Um action, you know, just that you know, it's the two most important things, right? Attitude and effort, but man, does effort just beat anything else? Being willing to come back, you know, being willing to just get smacked down and say, that sucked. Let's do it again, you know. You know, and man, yeah. I mean, it's it I'll tell you, it's not fun beating your head against the wall. But when I started covering all law, remember I said I didn't know how we were going to win, but I had an idea that if we did this and only this, we had to win eventually. I cannot lose if I do not quit. And so just keep going. When I go to court, what I'm saying to the to the judges is I say, Judge, if we're wrong, then can you tell me why my client shouldn't be in business? Right? Because that's where that goes. We don't need to do things, you know, operating at a loss, like that's silly. I've seen shops that from month to month they don't know if they're gonna turn a profit. That's insane. I know, right?

Rick 46:31

It's no way to have a business. That's not really a business. That's that's that's tyranny.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

When you have such such thin margins that a single mistake on a job means that job's operating at a loss, something is wrong. Yeah.

Rick 46:42

Agreed. Agreed. No, that's that's excellent. And thanks for sharing that, John. I appreciate that. Um, so what's before I let you go, what's what's next for cover all law? What's what's in the uh future plans for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 46:55

So we are gonna be at SEMA this year. So we've got um two things at SEMA. One is we're going to do a presentation on the three daily mistakes, right? And it really expands out there. It'll be me and Tim Roenick. And um, we're going to talk about those three daily mistakes and really dig into the details of them, certain issues that actually cross the line of several of or of more than one of those areas. And then um, you're not gonna want to miss the Ideas Collide Summit at CEMA. Uh I loved it, I loved it last year, and we've been invited there too. Um, so we'll have an announcement there as well with our next solution. And I have an accounting and finance background in addition to corporate law. So um, so we've got our next big solution, and it has to do with your numbers. Awesome.

Rick 47:46

Yeah, awesome. I can't wait to see that. I will be at CEMA uh supporting Garmat as usual. Uh, and I'll see if I can, I'd love to be able to break away uh for the Ideas Collide. I missed it last year, and I know some really good stuff happens at Ideas Collide. So I'm looking forward to that. Um, so I want to thank you, Sean, for your time uh and and all that you've shared with us today. It's it's fantastic. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate what you do for this industry. Uh, and just keep doing what you're doing, brother. Keep helping. Uh, you're making a massive impact. That and I think that's that's why we're all here is to make make a positive impact wherever we can. Um, and I want to say thank you to listeners uh for joining us today. Um, hopefully you get something out of this that you can take back to your shop and really think about and uh start start implementing some change within your own organization organization. I'll leave contact information for Sean and for Cover All Law so you can reach out, connect with him if you got questions. Uh he's an easy guy to get a hold of when he's not busy uh you know with his cape and his mask, being a superhero and flying around town. Um feel free to reach out and uh and uh pick his brain. And uh if you can uh get him to you know invest in in your state, um that's right, he goes where the the demand is. So uh hopefully some of my Michigan friends will will get the ball rolling here so we can get him in our state too. So I think he could help a lot. Absolutely. Yeah. But thank you so much, Sean. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you, Rick. Appreciate you. All right. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Sean Preston. And I really hope you found some value here. And maybe it sparked some ideas about changes you can make and how your shop operates and gets paid for what you actually do. Feel free to reach out to Sean and Coverall Law for more information. I'll leave his contact information in the show notes. If Sean is speaking anywhere near you at a conference or association meeting, be sure to check him out. Well, that's all I had for you today. Thanks again for tuning in. I really appreciate your support and hope you have a great week. I can always be reached at www.ricksilover.com, where you can find all my social media links, podcast episodes, blog posts, and much more.