Inspired Soles
Inspired Soles is a podcast that fuels your passion for running and helps you achieve peak performance with every stride. Host Carolyn Coffin talks with industry experts, coaches, Olympians and everyday runners to educate and inspire you to take your running to the next level.
Inspired Soles
171. Dr. Duane Scotti | Return to Running Safely After Time Off
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Dr. Duane Scotti is a Connecticut-based running physical therapist, run coach, host of the Healthy Runner podcast, and founder of Spark Healthy Runner. He has become a kindred podcast spirit of ours and with this episode has the honor of becoming the first guest we’ve had on the show 3 times! A leader in the rehab and running community for 20+ years, Duane is constantly learning, growing and sharing not only his professional knowledge but his personal experiences with the athletes that he coaches and the listeners of the Healthy Runner Podcast.
Keeping with what now seems to be tradition, we invited Duane back (to our show) to kick off the new year talking about his Return to Running Blueprint. Are you a runner who has struggled with lack of clarity and focus when returning to running after injury? Have you been away from running due to illness or life events and are looking to return in a healthy sustainable way? Did you know there’s actually a research-based, proven formula to success?
In this episode we cover:
- What is a Return to Run program?
- Who is it for?
- How do you know when you’re ready to return to running?
- How do you know when you’re ready to progress to the next phase?
- How do you remain patient through the process?
We start the episode discussing Duane’s recent huge marathon PR and what he did to achieve that, and close the episode discussing his personal running goals for 2024.
Sponsor: GoodPhyte
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- Website: https://goodphyte.com/
- Instagram: @jointhegoodphyte
- Our previous episodes with GoodPhyte Founder, Amy Golumbia
Connect with Duane:
- IG: @sparkhealthyrunner
- Website: Sparkhealthyrunner.com
- Healthy Runner Podcast
- Healthy Runner Facebook Group
- SPARK Your Training YouTube Channel
Resources we discussed in this episode:
- Return to Run Blueprint: learn.sparkhealthyrunner.com/returntorun
- Other SPARK Healthy Runner resources
- Ep 113 with Duane: It's All About That Base (Training)
- Ep 66 with Duane: SPARK Your Training with Prehab
- Carolyn's Goal Setting episode on the Healthy Runner Podcast
Connect with Carolyn & Kim:
- Email us with guest ideas: inspiredsolescast@gmail.com
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This episode is brought to you by Good Fight. We had the pleasure of hosting founder Amy Columbia, not once, but twice to talk about this amazing product, an enzyme that all of us need more of. Phytase is known to substantially increase absorption of micronutrients, protein, and amino acids. This superpowered digestive enzyme unlocks micronutrients in your food, helping you absorb more so you feel better, sleep better, and perform better. I can personally say that since taking good fight, I have noticed less swelling, better recovery, and much better digestion. And who doesn't want that? So if you want to start feeling good from the inside out, check out our show notes for links and use the code JOINTHEGOODFIT 10 for 10% off all your orders.
SPEAKER_00Anywhere you look in the literature, seven to nine out of every 10 runners at some point is going to get injured. And one of the most common reasons, honestly, runners do have a high reoccurrence rate of injuries is they fail to return to running appropriately.
SPEAKER_02That was Dr. Dwayne Scotty, and this is episode 171 of the Inspired Souls Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Hi, I'm Carolyn, and I'm a roadrunner. And I'm Kim and I'm a trail runner. Welcome to our podcast, where we bring the communities of trail and road running together and explore the parallels between running and life.
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SPEAKER_01Dwayne Scotty is a Connecticut-based running physical therapist, run coach, host of the Healthy Runner Podcast, and founder of Spark Healthy Running. He has become a kindred podcast spirit of ours, and with this episode has the honor of becoming the first guest we've had on the show three times. A leader in the Rehab and Running community for 20 plus years, Dwayne is constantly learning, growing, and sharing not only his professional knowledge, but his personal experiences with the athletes that he coaches and the listeners of the Healthy Running Podcast. Keeping with what now seems to be tradition, we invited Dwayne back to our show to kick off the new year talking about his return to running blueprint. Are you a runner who has struggled with lack of clarity and focus when returning to running after injury? Have you been away from running due to illness or life events that are looking to return in a healthy, sustainable way? Did you know there's actually a research-based proven formula to success? In this episode, we cover what is a return to run program. Who is it for? How do you know when you're ready to start returning to running? How do you know when you're ready to progress to the next phase? And how on earth do you remain patient through the process? We started the episode discussing Dwayne's recent huge marathon PR and what he did to achieve that. And we close the episode discussing his personal running goals for 2023. As we move into the new year, we hope this chat empowers and energizes those who may be feeling discouraged about their ability to return to running. So here we go. Let's talk to Dwayne.
SPEAKER_02Dwayne, it's so nice to see you again for our annual chat. And I wanted to uh start by congratulating you on being our very first three peat. We have never had anybody on the podcast three times until today. So welcome back. What have you been up to since we chatted around this time last year?
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's a great intro. And I feel like super honored right now, honestly, to be on the show again. And thanks for inviting me back on. Yeah, what I've been up to uh recently. Well, from a running journey standpoint, um, I probably I would imagine talked about this last year. We actually talked about, I remember, base training and really doubling down on like strength training in the winter. And I did what we had talked about and really build that strong foundation uh of strength, running mileage. And I did train for another marathon. It was my third marathon in the fall and kind of had a breakthrough race, which was nice. Um, so that was nice to be able to see things kind of come together as I'm still a little novice in my marathon journey, if you will. So that was uh that was nice to see that all come together um race day. And it I've just been enjoying, honestly, the the journey of marathon training after being an adult onset runner and running for 12 years now. Um, you know, fairly new to the marathon training. I did my first six years ago, really didn't train correctly though. Uh so two years ago, um, that one I went through like uh a full marathon training cycle, did everything right. Um, race day didn't have the greatest race day. I think we had talked about that last year at this time. So it was nice to be able to see things kind of come together.
SPEAKER_02Um, you're being very modest. So let me just toot your own one since you're not gonna do it. Um, yes, it was a breakthrough race. You had a 23-minute PR in that race in the Cape Cod Marathon in October, and you ran a 340. That's amazing. Tell us since you mentioned, and yes, that was our last one on base training. So, what specifically did you do differently to break through in such a major way? What was it about that base training? Because you know that an October PR begins like the October or November or December prior, right? So, what did you do in your base training leading up to the Cape Cod Marathon to break through?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. Um, in terms of base training, it really was lifting the heaviest that I've lifted since college days, really, um, in terms of really doing like a full three to four months of heavier lifting in the gym, less reps, compound movements, doing deadlifts that I thought I could never do because I would always get back pain. Um, so really kind of doubling down on that. And the year prior, I started adding some of that, but it was really getting the movement patterns down and you know, gradually building up the resistance. And last year I was able to pack on a little bit more weight and you know, lift heavier and increase my like weekly um running mileage and volume. Those were kind of two things during base training and even you know, adding in some threshold tempo paced runs during base training, which I had never done before. It was typically you know just easy runs during that time. So I guess it was a little bit more structured and quote unquote serious about base training. Whereas I think in a lot of runners, um, I I feel like approach the offseason as kind of like willy-nilly. Um you go more in feel, emotion, and you might not exactly have like the best structured plan. And I think we had pretty much talked about that um last year in terms of like what you do during bass training. But I I did feel like everything we had talked about in that episode, I did put into action. And then I actually did after I was done with my base training phase, I shared on my uh podcast kind of what I did. And um it was more of a reflective, and I wish I did it before, which would have been nice, but we have that on your show. So uh folks can go and listen to that episode. But really to kind of answer your question fully, because I don't think it was only that that really got me the breakthrough this year versus the previous year, I really respected and doubled down on kind of in our running journey, I think of like six buckets and you know, six steps to growing as a runner in the mindset bucket as far as really embracing relaxation strategies and trying to stay calm for harder training runs and then also race day, right? So, what was gonna put me in a calm state so I can go out and perform as my training suggested I should perform. And then the other uh thing was recovery strategies in terms of sleep, fuel hydration, like after all those hard, long runs with pace work in it, you know, hard speed work, especially with you know, work-life balance, all that all those things. I really prioritized the recovery, which I definitely have not done in the past. And I think that made a big difference in terms of like staying completely healthy the whole training cycle and really heading into the race, like feeling good about where the training was.
SPEAKER_01I love how you really emphasize the mindset and recovery as part of your key features to success. You know, I just heard a quote and it really resonated with me. I think I put it on my Insta feed a while ago. Instead of working hard enough that you feel you deserve a rest, rest enough so that you can do your most meaningful work.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's great. Right? I love that.
SPEAKER_01And it's like, you know, rather than beating yourself into the ground, oh, so now I can stop. Well, have a good night's sleep so that you can wake up proactively ready to do the work. Um, and I think that's that's a key key thing. Right.
SPEAKER_02And you know, it what's really jumping out at me, Dwayne, like with the answer to that question, is that you listed things. Let me let me um reflect them back to you. All right. You listed strength training, you listed recovery, you listed nutrition and mindset. None of those things are running. Like you did say that you ran more and and you respected your base training and everything, but for the most part, these were the quote little things that we tend to pay lip service to that make a huge difference if you really make them the main character, right? Like obviously, running you're good at making running the main character, but there's all of these supporting roles that if you're hitting a plateau or you just don't perform on race day the way that it might indicate, then it's really worthwhile to look into some of these other things. Um, you know, would would you like a 23-minute PR? You who's listening, look into some of these things because they do work.
SPEAKER_00Right, absolutely. And I think that is a common misconception, right? In the running community, and we focus on the running. And as I mentioned, like the year prior, I felt like the training, the running was there. Yes, made little tweaks in terms of like training and running that I was actually doing, but you're right. It's like, as I say, it's like one step literally out of the six to being like successful on race day. So really doubling down on some of those other strategies for your listeners, I think will be key in sometimes unlocking, right? Especially, obviously, you know, we're all big on the strength training aspect. And like that, I think in of itself, there are so many runners who are not doing that consistently, even if they just added that in, you know, that's gonna help keep them healthy, feeling good, feeling fresh, not feeling like their legs are heavy for certain paced workouts. And um, it's just amazing, like when someone actually does dedicated strength for runners and how much better they feel.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So it's great to catch up on what happened last year, but you recently dropped um something that we all want to talk about on this episode as we lead into the next year and the next phase of everyone's running journey. So you recently developed a return to running blueprint, which I'm looking at right now. And is it ever not only a very attractive eye-catching document, but chock full of awesome information and tips for runners who are trying to return to running post injury? So we actually happen to have one of those runners on the podcast today as well. So we're gonna hear a little bit of personal stories, I'm sure. Um, but why don't you start with just telling us why? Like, why did you feel the need to create this amazing resource for runners?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this has been something that I've been kind of implementing with my, you know, one-on-one clients for years now. And I really felt compelled to share this with the world and not just like keep it as my secrets that I utilize, you know, with my clients, because as you know, we know, like anywhere you look in the literature, seven to nine out of every ten runners at some point is going to get injured. And one of the most common reasons, honestly, runners do have a high reoccurrence rate of injuries is they fail to return to running appropriately. They either take too much time off, which often is very common, especially in the medical world, if um the practitioner is not very familiar working with runners. Um it's shut it down for four to six weeks, six to eight weeks, three months, go get rehab, go get treatment, and then go back to run and you're discharged, and then it's like, oh yeah, go back to running. You're good now. Your injury's over, and you go back to running. So I've seen it.
SPEAKER_01And my plant had me at 20 miles, so I'm just gonna pick ride up at 20 miles.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I feel like either you take too much time off, or you're running too fast, or you're doing like random runs based on how you feel. And there are like some simple strategies that you can structure this out in a progressive fashion to really allow the body to get back into and tolerating the demands of running again without feeling injury, injured, basically. And what I found is honestly a gap out there from my research when I was always looking up like return to run programs. And I just felt like you know, a lot of um medical practitioners usually have too conservative of a plan where they start with like walk-run intervals of like five minutes of walking, and then you do like one minute run. And then they don't include the principles of you know, varying the amount of running each day or the total volume of running, so the amount of miles. And the other thing I I've seen is most run coaches um have a plan that's either doesn't utilize walk-run strategy at all, or they keep the walking intervals in like way too long. And I've seen some plans where it goes to like eight or ten minutes of running followed by like a minute of walking. And I'm like, well, if you can run eight, ten minutes essentially without many symptoms or you know, limited symptoms, like you don't need to walk at that point. So I feel like the body doesn't really require those, you know, walking intervals in my clinical and coaching experience as a running physical therapist and coach. So I really wanted to kind of combine like run coaching training principles of like periodization, recovery, and structuring like a run plan where there is one long run a week and shorter runs throughout, as well as respecting like tissue healing principles from kind of my knowledge as you know, treating thousands of uh runners over the course of my 21-year career now with these kind of you know common tendinopathies and um you know, IT band syndrome, planar fasciitis, proximal hamstring tendinopathy, right? Like a lot of those common injuries that runners uh suffer from. So I really wanted to kind of put this out there, share it, because honestly, like I wish I actually had something like this when I was a clinic-based physical therapist in the beginning of my career, and I saw a lot of runners who I would tell them, yeah, try running for a minute and do it five times, and we'll walk in between. If you don't have pain, do the same thing the next day. And if it still feels good, do the same thing the next day. I would give out kind of these random kind of numbers, and so I wish I had something that was like a little bit more structured, progressive in nature.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So the the tagline of the blueprint is how to return to running after injury without setbacks. And we're speaking to this, like coming back after an injury, but I can really envision a lot of different uses for this. Like you said, the person who's taken an extended amount of time off, not just because of injury, but because of anything, right? I can think of it as the postpartum person coming back after having a baby. Like, who is this for? Because I almost see it as like even more broad than just injury. So two-part question: who is it for? And is there anyone it's not for? Are there any contraindications?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely uh great point. Yeah, definitely after giving birth, postpartum would definitely benefit from this kind of gradual, progressive getting back into the demands of running, you know, definitely obviously following an injury. And I will add in there, you know, folks who are currently battling symptoms, pain, injury, like most, you know, a lot of the clients I at least work with on a one-on-one basis don't have access to, let's say, running specific physical therapist in their local area, and we wind up working together virtually. So all of those conditions that are currently injured, I take them through this while we are actually getting better. So that's there is no time period where they're not running, right? We're starting somewhere in this framework as they're actually, you know, quote unquote rehabbing their injury and getting better from their injury. Um, but after surgery, you know, definitely after any, you know, those that are getting like meniscal surgeries, hip arthroscopies, um, you had a labral tear, you know, if you've been cleared and you are a patient who has had a total hip and your surgeon says that yes, you can run with your total hip and it's completely safe. You know, there's a lot of better materials out there, different approaches. You know, there are surgeons that allow their patients to run. Um, I've taken many of them through this kind of protocol. And then really anyone who's just taken, you know, a time period off, right? Life stressors, things change, jobs, right? Families, um, you know, people take off for a month or two, then this would be a good thing to get you back into running without those setbacks, right? So you don't wind up having an injury or you know, suffering from pain. Or someone who's just like, hey, you know, uh, maybe I want to dip my toe in this running thing. I have some friends that they all look like, you know, they're pretty happy out there running. And, you know, like let's be honest, right? Like runners, like we're we have the best moods, right? We're like happy people in general.
SPEAKER_02Uh shiny, happy people.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, maybe they want to, yeah, be a beginner runner and you know, start out. And this is one way to just progressively be able to do that. Um, or you know, we see a lot of like daily walkers, and it's like you've been walking for exercise, and you know, you like moving your body and you want to take it to the next level. This is another group um of individuals that you know might dip their toe in into running.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm thinking too, like you mentioned people have been away from running for a while, the post-COVID thing, right? Like people who are off, um, maybe they were performing at quite a high level and they're not injured, but all of a sudden they just haven't been running for a significant um reason. So, yeah, a lot of different people that could benefit.
SPEAKER_02I always think of just because we're here in Winnipeg and it's so cold and our winters are so long, that like normally I meet people that like our last kind of local race of the year is like mid-October. And then our next one really isn't until like May. And so I meet a lot of people that contact me like for the May race, and they haven't done anything. They contact me maybe like March, and they haven't done anything since October. And I would treat that person like this, you know, like as if they're a brand new runner practically, or you know, at least take them through some of the the steps of this program with with the run walking and such. So right.
SPEAKER_00Essentially, it almost like builds upon what we talked about last year with base training. This would be like the step below of someone who has been away for a while, and now we have to develop some type of foundation and base level of training and allow your body to adapt to the demands of running. So then you can actually get into a 5K, 10k, half marathon kind of training specific cycle.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. Say somebody's been injured and they decide to return to running and they don't do this nicely laid out logical program. Um, what what are the risks of getting it wrong besides, I mean, the obvious of feeling pain again? Like what could happen if a person doesn't follow a productive return to run program?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're gonna continue to feel pain, usually if it is from an injury, let's say, and then you're gonna take two to three days off of running to calm it down, and then you're gonna try again uh just to become frustrated that you can't run anymore. You're gonna think like your body is not meant for running. You're gonna feel like you're an quote unquote injury prone runner. Um, you're gonna become frustrated for like, okay, let me take another month off and like pray for the best that the next time you try to run. It's gonna be gone. And you're just gonna like guess, right? Uh on what you're doing for running and doing random distances and different speeds each day. And you know, the thing I hear a lot, which I just you know like pains me to hear this always, is like you think you're just getting too old for running, right? And you know, we're we're all middle-aged here, right? Uh and you know, if you're in your 40s, 50s, 60s, like you are not too old for running. Um, that is a myth. Um, there's just maybe we're not taking the proper steps and approaches to allowing your body to adapt to those demands of runner.
SPEAKER_01Right. So, in addition to exacerbating the injury that you currently have, you can get psychological effects of depression, frustration, quit it altogether. Um, heaven forbid a runner completely give up on running. What if a person just ran too much through it? I mean, I I I've seen runners cause themselves secondary injuries because they're limping or their gait has changed, or you know, they end up with three more problems than the original first one. And I'm you want to make any comments on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I kind of think of it as like three different phases. And if someone is feeling good, let's say like week one, and you know, within um the download that your listeners can get, I have it literally structured out, like in phase one, like exactly what to do week by week. But in week one, you might be like, Oh, that was pretty easy. I feel great. And then you're like, oh, I could just jump to week six, why not? Um, you know, you can definitely like have pain um or compensate, like you mentioned, Kim, and develop a strain somewhere else, or feeling like, oh, my hamstring feels tight. And you are, you know, utilizing other muscles that aren't ready for the demands because you've really just you know ramped up too quick. And we just call that like training errors, essentially. And that is literally like the number one reason that runners get injured. It's not that running is bad for the body. Running does not cause planner fasci. Running does not cause iliotibial band syndrome, runners does not cause runners' knee, even though it's called runner's knee. It doesn't cause telphoral pain syndrome, right? It was literally training errors that you did running because you did too much too soon that the body wasn't ready for or you weren't strengthening the right muscles to prevent that from happening. So those are the things that uh can creep up, definitely.
SPEAKER_02And that's what I really love about this because I think that like we know runners, right? Like they're like us, like they're a little bit type A and they like to follow a plan. And so I love this because it's a plan and you can see how it's laid out that it's like, oh, I'm actually running longer and walking less, and the the time or the mileage goes up, and oh, by week six, I'm gonna be doing this or whatever. So there it satisfies that part of our brain that just loves to feel like we're getting somewhere, you know? Where if left to your own devices, like you were saying, oh, day one of my run walk went well, one minute on, one minute off. I'm just gonna jump to like 10 minutes and 20 minutes because like it's fine, it doesn't hurt, you know. So I think left to our own devices, we're at quite a bit of risk of the too much too soon phenomenon that you described. But I think this might be a really nice time to talk about the the different aspects of of the plan.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, two two quick things, honestly, that um I would love to mention. First off, Kim, I don't know if you're feeling judged right now, but I'm kind of feeling judged. I feel like Carolyn was just projecting herself. She's obviously not talking about our personalities. Not at all.
SPEAKER_02I apologize for my total projection.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I'm sure everyone like nodded their heads as they were listening to you. They're like, yes, that's totally me. Um yeah, we can all relate to that.
SPEAKER_01They looked at their, you know, spouse or running partner beside them and that's you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but before we get into the different phases, I think Kim brought up a great point before that I do want to emphasize, just because there are reasons to not do this return to run that we're going to be talking about. And I just want to highlight those that if you do have a fracture, if you have a current bone stress injury, so a stress reaction or a stress fracture, if you have nerve pain, if you have acute inflammation and severe pain, so if we're using like scale from zero to 10, you know, if your pain is a seven, eight, nine, like this is not for you. So I do want to kind of make that clear. And for those you mentioned postpartum, um, I mentioned surgery before. If you're recovering from a bone stress injury or a major injury, right? Like you were unfortunately had a you know a bad fall and you had multi-trauma, like you had a major injury, like you need medical clearance to start any of this. And even postpartum, like I always recommend medical clearance before you're you know allowed to return to run. So I definitely want to make sure everyone's clear on that aspect. And if you know you are injured and you think it is something and you haven't gotten it checked out, and it could potentially be a bone stress injury or a fracture, um, we just want to make sure that those have been ruled out. But all of the common run-related injuries that uh I mostly mentioned before, a couple ones I didn't highlight, maybe that I'll mention is Achilles tendonopathy or Achilles pain, and then posterior tibial tendon pain are other uh common ones that I see a lot in runners, they will all respond to this method of kind of returning to run in this structured fashion.
SPEAKER_01So here's a question, Duane, before we dive into the three kind of um phases of your program. Say you are one of those people that has been told by your medical practitioner just to take three to six months off without much follow-up. And you're not lucky enough to have a running physio that understands the nuances of the stress training curves and all that stuff, right? Um, what are some maybe self-assessment questions that a runner could ask themselves if they're a little more isolated, don't have a good medical community of support to decide, okay, like this was a major injury, but now it's time for me to get back.
SPEAKER_00It's a big question. That is actually I would go by um, you know, definitely pain monitoring model, um, and we can talk about what that is, but also you know, seeing how your body has responded to either, you know, walking, you definitely have to have the like the right mindset that um you are ready to actually return to run. And your focus is that right now, and it's not to get faster, it's not to run longer, um, it's to, you know, progressively like return to run um in a structured way. But I would use like the pain monitoring model and meaning, you know, scale from zero to 10. I've adapted the pain monitoring model that is in the literature for like Achilles tendinopathy within the research, and people have you know extrapolated that to other injuries. Um, my kind of spark pain monitoring model, um, using that numerical pain rating scale is really anywhere, um, so just using like colors are easy, right? Like let's go red first, like red light, stop, do not proceed, right? You're not gonna actually do this return to run that we're talking about, where you're in this high risk zone of anywhere from you know a five to a 10 on that pain scale, then you're in the high risk zone. So if you know you you don't have medical clearance, let's say, or you've been told to, you know, shut it down for three months and your pain levels are high, then I would recommend perhaps trying to get another opinion um and another assessment. And then, you know, we have the yellow zone, which is really the acceptable zone. And a lot of folks do usually fall in this zone initially, um, is anywhere from a you know a three to a four in that that pain rating scale where they're feeling like like that's the worst pain imaginable that they've had in the last week or two. So it's relatively stable, essentially, like their pain and their injury. And that is the acceptable zone. And then the safe zone, and this is where, you know, we do have some clients that and some runners that are like, all right, I have I have some pain. And then you ask them, well, you know, how much pain would you say? Well, it's like a one or a two, but I'm just, you know, I I want to play it safe. I want it to fully heal before I do anything. And unfortunately, all of these really common running-related injuries we just mentioned, they actually get better and respond to stress and um putting some stress on the tissues with our specific loading exercises that we would prescribe, but then also the running. And it's not a matter of waiting till you're totally pain-free, a zero out of 10. Like when I first graduated PT school, that's what I told my patients, that's what I learned in school. You know, it was kind of make sure everything's pain-free before you progress to the next level. And I did notice, clinically speaking, uh, outcomes weren't the greatest, and you had a lot of reoccurrences of injuries and injuries that kept coming back in that kind of injury cycle that a lot of runners kind of talk about, right? It keeps coming back because they didn't progress to that next level. And then C, does the pain stay kind of at this, you know, one or two or three level, and they're doing more and they're running more, and now they're getting stronger and they're doing different exercises. And then we notice over the course of weeks and sometimes for some of these chronic, like proximal hamstring, upper hamstring tendinopathy, we see a lot of times, people are usually struggling with this for six, eight, twelve months, two years, three years. I've seen um clients having this pain. Um, so it does take time for them to actually get out. And even you mentioned Mary earlier, she shared that on the Healthy Runner podcast, um, her story of um getting out of that um pain cycle with hamstring pain. And she talked about, and she's a physician herself, and she talked about at that like 12-week mark, she wasn't totally pain-free. And she was even a little like questioning like, hmm, is this gonna really work? Am I gonna be able to like run, you know, my very first half marathon at that time? We were working together, and then sure enough, like by the 16-week mark, she was pain-free. And you know, it does take some time. Um, so hopefully that answered your question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it absolutely did. Thank you. I'm asking the questions I would have if I was a runner wondering if it was time.
SPEAKER_03So all right.
SPEAKER_02So, should we dive into this return to run blueprint? We've got restore, rebuild, and retrain. So uh, why don't we start with restore? So, what goes on in the and the restore phase, which you have here as four to six weeks?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this is the first phase of getting back into running, and you're just like restoring your body. Really, the goal is to allow the body to adapt to the demands of running again, where you're adding some stress but recovering. And this is where we are utilizing structured walk-run intervals that are varied each day of the week and progressive each week of the month. Meaning we're actually each week we advance. Let's say if we start with one minute of running, right? The next week we're gonna progress to two minutes of running and then three minutes of running. Um, but you are varying the duration of your run, each of those runs throughout the week. So we're always maintaining a quote unquote long run. It might not feel like a long run to most of you runners out there, but it is the longest run of your week. So technically it is a long run.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes, and and I think this one, speaking from experience, because I am in the restore phase currently after my injury, um, because it's been like eight weeks since I've run, and really more like 10 because I barely ran for the two weeks before my marathon. It is so hard to just run for one minute and then have to walk and then run and walk. And you you I think just it's harder psychologically than anything else. Like, is this even gonna like it's so far away? Like, how did I just how was I just in like marathon shape, like ready to run 42.2 kilometers and now I'm running for one minute and walking for one minute. So, do you have any tips sort of on the just getting somebody? Uh this is not me. I am on board with the the why and everything, but like right, do you ever do people ever resist this one? Like, really? Is this all I get to do? You know? Because I think week one is so you always start with a 10-minute walk and finish with a 10-minute walk. So the the meat of the very first day is six times one minute run, one minute walk. So it's a total of six minutes of running within a 32-minute bout of mostly walking. Um, do you get ever get anyone that's like, really? Six minutes? I think I can do more than that.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes, but honestly, you know, we would have already had the conversation that usually this person has been struggling um running through an injury for more than a month at minimum. So this this phase and like this first phase that we're talking, like restore phase, really does only apply to, you know, that person that has been off of running for, you know, four weeks at that point. And it does depend upon running fitness as well. So like use yourself as an example. And depending upon how you were feeling for these runs, like if we went through a couple of these runs and you were literally like no pain whatsoever, then we're gonna be able to progress you because you have years of experience running and you have a running fitness that's been built up. And as long as you're doing the exercises uh that you should be doing, then you'd be able to progress a little bit um quicker through this. But, you know, most of the clients that really all the clients essentially that I I work with, they've had pain for over a month, over two months. They've been, you know, dealing with this pain for so long now. They are actually just really happy to actually run with either less pain or no pain at all, and just to actually get back into running. So we kind of focus on that and you know, focusing on the winds. Um, definitely being able to get outside is is ideal, right? So someone who hasn't been out there in nature and they just miss those mental clearing miles, like they don't care if it's only six minutes of running, but they're outside for 32 minutes, right? They're able to like clear their head 32 minutes. That's better than zero minutes, or it's better than trying to run at their faster pace when they were trying to do like six miles at a clip, you know, each time they went outside and they felt like a failure. And they just felt like, hey, my body's not meant for running, right? All those things we talked about before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. No, it's um with the the biggest challenge that I'm having with this is I don't know how to dress. So I went out for one of these and I'm like dressed as if because I'm like, well, I'm not really running very much, so I should dress as if I'm just going for a walk. But then you do warm up a little bit, so then I'm like boiling and wanting to take off layers, but I didn't really have layers on, I just had this giant like perka on, and I'm like, whoa, I'm too hot. But um, sorry, back to the real topic at hand here. Um do you ever see people wanting to do the one minute like way too fast, like sprint the minute because it's only six minutes. So like I may as well like really make these minutes count.
SPEAKER_01Definitely get a mile in in that six minutes. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And a full mile. Um, that is like I just want to be clear that or or clarify with you that that's not the intent of this, right? This is just still your easy paced running, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yes. And that is a education point that I'll usually pick up on um looking at their training logs and I use like final surge and online training platforms. So I could see their paces, I could see their cadence, I could see those variables, and I will usually ask people like, so is you know, a nine-minute pace or an eight minute really your easy pace?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And they're like, Well, yeah, it felt kind of easy, but I'm like, but wait, wait, wait, wait, is that usually your it's going to feel easy because yes, you're only doing it for a minute. Um but yes, you definitely want to go at your easy effort um pace because again, the faster we go, the more demands on the muscles, the tissues. So we the whole goal of this, remember, is to get back into consistent running. And each week we're gonna be running more, walking less to where, you know, really the earliest that someone would really go through kind of this phase one could be three to four weeks, or it might take like six weeks for someone to kind of go through where they're full-blown running again.
SPEAKER_01Right. Okay. So phase one is fairly straightforward. It's pretty black and white, laid out in detail what you do each day for four to six weeks. As a person moves into phase two, I can see in your plan it's a little more nuanced, um, really related to overall how long a runner has been off running uh to begin with. So talk to us about what happens when it's time to consider moving into phase two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is like what I like to call the rebuild phase. We're just like allowing the body to get stronger for the demands of running and essentially kind of going to the principles of like base training that we talked about last year for runners who haven't been away from running, um, is to really develop right that easy running miles under their legs and gradually increase the mileage. And if, you know, I mentioned before, if someone had an injury that they, you know, were a little worried about, their knees started hurting and then or their shins started hurting, and they were like, oh, let me take a week off of running and let me get back into it. Like that person does not need to go through phase one. They can start right here at phase two. And looking at, you know, getting into like the same number of running days in that instance. If you missed one week of running, you can return to the same number of running days per week, maybe 80% of the volume the first week. So for example, if we're using numbers here, if you were like a 20 mile per week runner, um, you guys are gonna have to do like conversion for case. Yes. There we go. All right, if you were a 30k-ish runner, um, then you would start with 16 miles uh per week, uh, going from like that 20 mile per week, that first week back. So you're not going to, and this is to Kim's point before, you're not going to exactly where you left off. So we're just gonna like bring it down one little notch, test the waters, see how the body responds to that, and then you'll be able to kind of go back up. And if you were not running for two to four weeks, this is like a minor setback in the grand scheme of things in terms of like training-wise, you know, you didn't lose a whole lot of running fitness per se. And this is where I would, you know, start phase two. I'd take someone through phase one, and usually if it was only a two, four-week, they would have gone through phase one fairly quickly at either a three or four week mark. And now they're in phase two, and now that you know, 20 mile per week runner who took, let's say, a month off, um, their first two weeks back in phase two would be at a 50% reduction. So they would start with like 10 miles, and this is full-blown running. Now we've taken the walk structured walk intervals out. So now we start at like 10 miles per week for two weeks. So we test those waters, and then they would go up to 15 miles per week and then get back to that 20 miles per week in one month's time. So essentially, if you've been away from running for two to four weeks, almost a month, you're gonna start in that phase one, try some walk-run intervals, gradually progressed, and then you go to phase two, and then we're starting basically at like a 50% reduction of volume before you were away from running.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha. So, in that example, then like the the 20-mile person who's gonna come back at 50%, so they're gonna do 10 miles all week, uh, but you're keeping the same number of days, so they would run two miles at once and then call it a day.
SPEAKER_00So if they were running five days a week, I'm assuming, uh, using math there. Uh math is not the strong suit. That's why my wife's the accounting. Um yes. So it is a little nuanced, as Kim mentioned there. Sometimes I would start someone with four days of running, honestly. So I would keep the frequency down um at that point and just spread out, you know, those miles accordingly. Don't make me do math on the spot.
SPEAKER_02Two and a half miles per time.
SPEAKER_00I I most likely would uh vary those miles too. So I am a big fan of right having the longer run, like we mentioned. So they would most likely in that example probably do honestly that picture that we kind of painted, most likely they would tolerate a five-mile long run. And they would probably have, if we were doing four runs that week, they'd probably have two, three milers and then a five-miler, right? So there was like that dichotomy and difference of like their long run, and then they had a shorter run. And because that shorter run, that two-miler, I would probably link that with strength for the for the day. So that would be the rationale there. And then I guess do you want to talk about really probably the most common scenario that I feel like a lot of runners are in this boat where they're missing a month or two, right? Like you just mentioned, like it's been eight weeks for you. Like that's probably the more common scenario. And this is where in phase two, it's gonna be a little bit more conservative, where we're we're starting that first week back at like 25% volume for the first third of their kind of phase two portion, and then they go to 50% volume, the second third, and then 75% volume the last third. So let's just say we had a you know a frequent marathoner who was doing 40 miles per week normally. They're used to that, they've been doing that a couple years, they take three months off, right? Because they had a stress fracture, unfortunately. So now really they go through phase one, making sure they don't have any symptoms, no bone, you know, symptoms going on. And then they start this first month back of phase two. They're really gonna start at 10 miles per week, which again, like for that runner, right? Like, yeah, I'm sure you're somewhere in this picture, Carolyn. Yeah, probably volume is a little higher, but um, 10 miles, they're like, oh, that's nothing. Like, really? Like, I could do that.
SPEAKER_02Um that's why I say it's as hard psychologically, because it's not that hard physically, right? It's it's almost like, what's the point? Like to get all dressed up and go and do this. It's but I'm not saying that that's how I'm approaching it. I'm just saying I I could see somebody that might feel that way. Like I'm gonna get all bundled up and go outside in the freezing cold to barely even run.
SPEAKER_01And and well, let's talk about that though. Like, why not just do one 10 miler in the week for your 10 miles? Why divide it over three or four? Um, let's talk a bit about, you know, most running injuries are connective tissue injuries, they're not cardiovascular injuries. We're not, it's not about fitness so much here. It's about the connective tissue and the tendons. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, Dwayne, but let's talk about like, you know, why do we want to dose multiple times throughout the week versus just once?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, great, uh, great point there, Kim. It's let's take a tibial stress fracture or a foot stress fracture. You were in a boot, maybe you were non-weight bearing for literally four to six weeks. Like there is no stress to that connective tissue, to your Achilles tendon, to your planar fascia, to your you know, posterior tip tendon, your peronial tendon, right? Like all those tissues that are stressed with running. And when we run too much, do too much too soon, those training errors we mentioned before, those tissues will get angry at us. They're gonna be like, too much load, whoa, like we've, you know, the balance is off here. So you have to remember if you've spent that many weeks, those tissues haven't been stressed, but then also muscles start to atrophy away. And we start to see, you know, disuse atrophy and muscle activation patterns that aren't firing on all cylinders as they should be. So as you're working with rehab on getting those muscles firing again, strengthening those muscles, we have to allow those connective tissues that you just mentioned to adapt to the demands of running and load and stress. And running is, you know, there is stress with running, right? Like I think most of the research is like three to six times body weight. Kim would probably know this better, uh, better than me. Um, so there's a you know, amount of load, there's ground reaction forces that come up from the ground that go up into our tissues, into our bones. So we have to like build that back in a progressive fashion. Um, and just to kind of go um to Carolyn's original point there is mindset. And that's why like we talked about mindset like marathon training earlier in my personal journey, but this mindset of return to run, and I kind of said it really quickly earlier, but it's so important, Carolyn, because you bring up a good point that if someone isn't ready and they don't have the mindset, and their mindset is like, oh, I've been cleared to run, I'm gonna go back to running, then it is going to be a failure. Like they are going to wind up pulling something else, having new pain, getting a setback, right? Like you have to think of this part of your running journey training cycle and dedicating. So taking this instance where someone is out for two months that they have not been running, like they need to think about literally three to four months of I'm dedicating to returning to running. Yeah, no expectations, no pace expectations, no race, definitely no races in that training block. And this is your season. This is your return to run season. And when we complete that, we get that checkbox. We we complete that healthy, feeling stronger, probably if you're doing all the exercise you should be doing, feeling stronger than before your injury. And now you're ready to actually start training again as a runner.
SPEAKER_02And I think earlier on you were talking about a gap. You noticed this gap. Why did you create this blueprint? Oh, because I saw this big gap in like I'm in rehab for an injury to like, okay, bye, you're cleared, and like let people off on their own. There's a gap. Um, I really think what you just said there. So for people who are in the boat of injury or haven't run for a while and they're gonna use your return to run plan, like rewind and go listen to what you said. Because I really think if it can be as clearly communicated as you just said from your coach, from your therapist, from your sports medicine doctor, whoever you're seeing, to respect this time, really lay it out. It's gonna be a four-month journey, but I promise you you'll reach a higher peak if you respect this this time right now. I really think that would get most runners to have buy-in. You know, I don't want to project, but uh but yeah, I think that most reasonable people will understand that and then they can get on board and then they can get excited about the run walks and and have that shift in mindset that's that might be necessary. But I think sometimes the gap is a lack of communication of of how important this step is. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01When I used to, I'm not practicing now, but when I used to treat runners all day, every day too, I found, and I don't know if this this is your experience, Duane, but say we had a 30-minute session together, I would probably spend three or four minutes going over the run program and the exercises and 25 minutes talking about the mindset. I'm like, this is not training, you can't think of it that way. Your body deserves this time, right? Like, like Carolyn. And just all of that buy-in stuff was so important. If you skip that, you've just wasted the perfect spreadsheet you just beta gave to that client.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So let's say somebody is they're on board, they're following along. How do they know that they're on the right track? How would they know? Like, I mean, we know when we're on the wrong track. There's pain. Oh shoot, like I've just had a setback, but how do they know they're on the right track? They can keep ticking along versus like, oh, I need to modify because things are going backwards.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I think pain is one variable that you can track. And for those that know they're on the right track, like they're not getting that familiar pain that they were having. Um, it's not creeping higher than a four. And for most of those injuries, like we we talked about that the pain, you know, after you complete a run is allowed to actually reach a four. Yeah. Right? Like that's safe. You're still okay. Um, but we want to make sure that like the next morning after the run, it doesn't exceed a four, right? That would be like, oh, you're not on like that was a little too much stress. So we need to modify um at this point, and you're not able to like progress to the next step or the next, you know, uh plan for the following week. But really, as long as you're in that green, you know, green again is safe if you're in that zone. And the yellow is the acceptable zone. I only expect someone to be in that yellow zone, you know, really that first four-week time period. And if they're doing the proper exercises for that specific tissue, that specific injury, and they are following the uh progressive plan that we talked about, um, they will usually be into that safe zone, you know, within two to six weeks. Obviously, there's some variability there. Um but yeah, those are that that's really what you're gonna see. And you're gonna see that your legs are starting to feel not as heavy anymore. And you know, you're actually feeling like a runner again a little bit. Um, you know, you're gonna feel like, all right, I'm getting I'm getting back in this. And usually most people are just really grateful that like, hey, they're like running with either not as much pain or they're actually running without pain for like the first time in you know, months, if not years. Um, just and it it it seems so like simple, and I hate to make it that simple, but uh there are so many runners I see with these injuries that get injections. Like I just met someone yesterday, three different cortisone injections. They had PRP, they had like every orthotic gadget device possible, right? Um, to try to get rid of their pain. And really all they needed was like the proper exercise for that tissue to load it and the proper amount of running. Um it's it seems so clear because I've seen the results of what this can be. So like I feel like almost, you know, from like an injury prevention standpoint of recurring injuries, if every single rehab professional, every single medical doctor, sports medictor like was a coach and could prescribe like a coaching plan, or they could literally just take the one we're talking about, right? And be able to give it to their clients and their patients, um, that would be like super helpful. Or if every single runner who's been discharged from their medical practitioner saying, like, oh yeah, go back to running, if every single runner like adopted this approach, um, then we would see so much uh of this like reoccurring injury cycle.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's professional suicide, though. You wouldn't have any clients left if you if all the uh doctors and PTs prescribe the proper programs.
SPEAKER_00That's okay, right? That's well, that's where my mindset's different from like the sick care model versus like I'd rather empower people to be able to like hit PRs, you know, run their first marathon, um, and be able to do those things pain-free than you know keep treating the same entry over and over again. That's where I got frustrated early in my career.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I'm with you, Dwayne. I'm just being a bit facetious.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I hear you.
SPEAKER_01I always used to say, my job is to work myself out of a job. That's what I was just about to say. That's what you're gonna say too.
SPEAKER_02But the reality is that human nature will keep you in business forever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's when I tell my clients, you could just pay for my kids' college education. Yeah. Thanks. Well too funny. Okay, so Dwayne, let's just before we we move, you know, into summarizing all this, we kind of skipped over what there is a phase three in this program. So somebody's, you know, completed the, you know, um, they're now back up to running their previous volume of running per week. Um, is that it? They're good to go, or is there are there a few more things a runner could do to really make themselves more resilient uh to prevent further injury?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this is what I like to call the retrain phase. So where really our goal is to improve running form and become more efficient as a runner. And really, what is this is adding in specific shorter bouts of faster running. And, you know, this usually starts out with if folks are familiar with strides and you know, doing short intervals. Um, and you know, we're not talking interval pace or even 5K pace. Um, so you're not going out there really, really fast if they are following this return to run, but even going out there at like marathon pace for a short interval or half marathon pace, and you're testing the waters and you're doing this in a progressive fashion, you're doing it in a consistent fashion. So maybe that might look like one time a week for the first two weeks. And if I was working with someone like Carolyn who is an experienced right marathoner, then that might go up to two times a week where we had strides and then we test the waters with a little longer duration. Um, but it is really working on now opening up the running form, getting you more efficient, getting that leg turnover, and really testing the tissues with some faster running.
SPEAKER_02Exciting stuff. True training. That's the fun stuff, right?
SPEAKER_00Everyone loves that that part. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you start to feel like yourself again. So this whole thing. So phase one was you said four to six weeks, and then phase two, four to eight weeks, depending on the person and the situation. And then phase three, same thing, four to eight weeks. So this whole thing could be anywhere from 12 to 20 weeks, like it could be anywhere from like three to five months. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Correct. Yes. And yeah, that is the sweet spot. And I would say, you know, the majority of like the time period that I work with individuals who are kind of going through these injuries is 16 weeks. And pretty much, you know, if they're getting the one-on-one guidance, like everyone essentially by the 12-week mark or 16-week mark is totally good. But if you are kind of out on your own doing this program, it might be 20 weeks, or if it is just a really it's been a chronic injury for a really long time, um, it may be 20 weeks. So yeah, it it's think of it as a training cycle, right? So three to four tops, five months of you getting back into running. That is your goal here. And if you're thinking about a half marathon, a marathon, an ultra, um, like that's not the goal now. That's not the focus. We want to do this so you can do that in the next season.
SPEAKER_02Patience is a virtue.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, you talk about this this phase, this return phase being anywhere from 12 to 20 weeks. But you recently had a runner on your podcast, a physio who treats runners, maybe I should say, physical therapist who treats runners, and it was the episode on ACLs, Kat Campbell, I think.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And she really emphasized something I believe in, which is the timelines are nowhere nearly as important as the criterion-based progressions, right? Just because that four-week mark is passed doesn't mean you're automatically move on to the next phase. You need to make sure you're meeting those, you know, um, the pain levels and that you're not um the latency doesn't get worse and worse and worse day after day. All of those criterion-based measures are are super important. I'm seeing you nod. So it sounds like you're agreeing with what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So really looking at those, you know, how how does the body, how does the quote unquote injury respond during the run, after the run? And I'm particularly interested in like two hours after the run. Did they have any pain? Um, what was their pain levels? Um, and seeing, you know, if they reported a four out of ten pain toward the end of their run, then I want to know how does the pain behave two hours later? How does the pain behave the next morning when they wake up? Right? Like, did it respond? Did it go back to kind of baseline? And as long as they're meeting like those, you know, levels. And, you know, Kat in that episode was talking about like returning to run after like an ACL surgery and you know, making sure there's no swelling in the knee, making sure that you're running running, you're walking first with a normalized gate pattern, as opposed to, you know, get rid of crutches at four weeks because it says four weeks. Like if you're not walking without a normalized gate pattern, you're not getting rid of the crutches. If you're not able to run without an antalgic pattern or like, you know, normal running pattern, you're not starting to run.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. Thanks. Yeah. So just basically there, that there's a reason there's a range to these timelines. It's not definitive. Just because Sunday passed doesn't mean you're moving on. Runners really need to like pay attention to what their body's telling them. And I would assume check in with their PT as well along the way to get some objective feedback on whether it's time to progress as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Yeah. So just kind of putting a bow on this return to run, like 12 to 20 weeks, like average, you say with your people for 16 weeks. So it's a training cycle. And I think again, back to some of more of the psychological ways of coping with this is that like I'll just use myself as an example. So my injury came in October, and very shortly after, I got accepted into the Chicago Marathon for next October. So I'm really looking at this like that's my next race. Like I have grieved the fact that I will not be doing indoor track this winter, and I probably won't be racing hard for myself come spring either. Like this return to run that I'm doing is in service of an eventual goal that's almost a year away. I think maybe like I don't know if this is even your area of expertise or a fair question to ask, but it kind of is a bit of a grieving process, don't you think? Like, I'm not gonna race for a year.
SPEAKER_00It is, but I honestly commend you because you you've already like put your mind right, and that's like the first part that we talked about mindset and setting appropriate goals and realistic goals. And I think that's great that you can think about okay, what is your goal race? And um, you did a whole episode on the Healthy Order podcast, if folks want to uh tune into that, um, about setting goals and realistic goals and A goal, B goal, C goal. Um so you are the expert in setting goals, and I just love how you've already kind of framed your mind toward that. But it is a little bit of a grieving process, especially if you've been away from running for as long as you have. Um, but it's realistic too, right? So if you're forced to like, could you like, yeah, definitely indoor track, I would say definitely not in parts.
SPEAKER_02My coach is like, no. Like, is that a serious question? I'm like, I know, but it's it's more of a FOMO thing. Like my my husband and I were gonna go to the Canadian National Indoor Championships in Montreal in February, and like this was all planned before my injury, and I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna go and I'm gonna cheer him on from the sidelines. And it's like, and then you get people that are like, oh, well, you could probably just do a 1500, like just a 1500, as if like a race that short isn't so intense and like probably the worst thing I could ever do for this injury. So it's like that, and then you know, spring goals are not gonna be for me. If anything, I might pace some some people in a race, which I would get a lot of enjoyment out of. So again, it's going back to looking at it with a longer timeline, maybe your goals than you're used to, and and and setting appropriate short-term goals that don't resemble what you would have normally done. It's a grieving process. That's it.
SPEAKER_00Honestly, absolutely is what I just said is it sounds like, and you're already starting to do this, but if um you were my client that I was advising is embrace right the situation and not look at it that you're not participating, but maybe embrace this role of being a supportive spouse to your husband, or embrace this role of you actually going to the championships without having the stress or anxiety of like how you're gonna perform. And maybe you can take it in that you wouldn't be able to take it in. Maybe you can network more with other runners. Maybe you could do some episodes while you're there, right? Like, think about like other things that you can do to still get out the experience. You're gonna have a great experience, it would just be in a different way than you would have if you were running. And then I Love that you brought up pacing, right? And that's a great way for you to feel good, be able to get back to the running community and feel like, hey, you had purpose, right? Like you were able to do this race and it brought you purpose in life. And it wasn't just about your specific personal like running goals. And it sounds like you're already starting to do that.
SPEAKER_02I definitely am starting. And it's kind of exciting. Like I think it is exciting, especially when you reflected it back to me. I'm like, dang, that sounds like a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01Well, somebody who's paced a hell of a lot in the last 18 months because of a few injuries. I can tell you that, yeah, it's it you see things from a different um in a different timeline from a different viewpoint. I mean, it's still a grieving process. You still have FOMO when you're out there, but I just try to keep saying it doesn't last forever, right? You will get back.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Eye on the prize.
SPEAKER_00It's you will Chicago 2024. I'm I'm grieving that I didn't get into Chicago and I can't run it with you.
SPEAKER_02It's kind of a little bit of a segue because my next question was bringing it back to you. And do you have any personal professional running goals for 2024? And I'm so sorry to hear that you didn't get into Chicago. I was pumped about our live show.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know. We're gonna have to hold off on that live show.
SPEAKER_02Or you could come and embrace a different role as cheerleader.
SPEAKER_00I I booked it in advance, being like, okay, maybe this will be like good karma. Yeah. If I already have a hotel room and I won't have to fight like all the other people who found out they were in and trying to book hotel rooms. Um, but yeah, apparently it was the uh largest ever, you know, amount of people that did try to get in. I think it was like 120,000 people uh tried to get in, and they're gonna it's gonna be the biggest field ever of 50,000 for the actual race. So it'll be the largest Chicago.
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. Oh, that's a lot. Heard world records get set on that course.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, it's getting pretty popular. You know, when people break records, I guess everyone wants to run that course.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so I we won't be seeing you there, but um, anything else that is getting you excited for 2024?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm just looking to continue the marathon journey. Um, I will be actually running in um probably at the uh time that this airs, I will be down in Disney doing a fun uh dopey challenge. Uh so I'm doing the Disney kind of uh challenge with my family and running like the 5K with all four of us. And my younger daughter doesn't run at all, so she's already you know stressing about whether she's gonna be able to run three miles and walk, run three miles, and then I'm running the 10K with my older daughter, who does enjoy running, and then I'm gonna run the half with my wife, and then I'm gonna run the marathon. Um, but you know, just go out for a good time, have some fun. I kind of uh really recovered well from the October marathon and did a really conservative kind of back into running and then felt you know really good. And the last you know, month has been some harder training and doing some back-to-back uh long runs for the first time ever in my life. So I'm sure uh Kim is very familiar with that uh with all of her work. So that's been a challenge, and I've been embracing that challenge of just doing back-to-back double-digit long runs. And you know, I just want to go down there, have some fun, not looking to you know, race race um each of the races, but just to be able to do 48.6 miles in four days um will be fun and to do it in Disney. So that's kind of the the immediate uh goal. And then I'm gonna actually double down on a little bit of something I haven't done in a long time is you know, really race a 5K in the spring. So I'm looking forward to doing like a six to eight week like 5K specific training block, which I've never really done specifically. I've always raced 5Ks during half marathon training essentially. Um, so I'm I'm excited for that kind of new different challenge, and then really segue that into marathon training in the summer for a fall uh marathon.
SPEAKER_02All right. And you don't know which be a busy season. Yeah, yeah. You don't know which one that is yet.
SPEAKER_00You haven't signed the dotted line on anything. I said I was gonna do last year, probably on your show, uh wine glass.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Yep. Awesome. That's a good one.
SPEAKER_00Continue the journey.
SPEAKER_01Yep. All right. Well, um, as we've shared already on this episode and in the past episodes as well, you are a wealth of information. You're a resource, um, your website's a resource, your company provides lots of guidance for runners. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about Spark Healthy Running and uh the blueprint and all of that, where would you direct them to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can get like all of our free resources, definitely. Like the blueprint, I'm sure we'll kind of share the specific link in the notes. But um if you go to learn.sparkhealtyrunner.com, that will have all of our free resources. That's kind of like our resource page. Um, but the main website is sparkhealthyrunner.com, um, which can kind of get to uh those resources as well. But if you just go to the learn.sparkhealtyrunner um.com, that will get you all of our educational resources, get you the return to run blueprint, all structured out for you. And yeah, I love feedback. So um, you know, anyone who goes through this, reach out, like connect with me. Instagram um is probably the best way to send me a DM at Spark Healtyrunner.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we'll make sure to put all of those links in the show notes. But Dwayne, it's always a pleasure catching up with you. Thank you so much for um coming back on for the third time. And uh oh, my husband's very, very bummed that he wasn't our first three Pete, but he said if anyone is gonna be the first three-peat, he's very glad that it's you. So um, yeah, thank you so much for sharing your your wisdom and your expertise with us. We love learning from you. And um, I guess we'll see you back here this time next year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's an annual event. I look forward to it each and every year.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, thank you. Thanks, Dwayne.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02We hope you enjoyed this episode and wanted to provide a little update. Since recording this episode, Duane completed the Dopey Challenge at Disney World, which consists of a 5K on Thursday, a 10K on Friday, a half marathon on Saturday, and a marathon on Sunday. That's 48.6 miles in the span of about 72 hours. Not only did Dwayne run all those miles, he negative split the marathon in 344.30 and came within four minutes of his PR. How about that for some Disney magic? Way to go, Duane, and congratulations.