Anxiety-Proof Her Interview with Dr. Danielle Jenkins, PsyD

Dr. Danielle Jenkins, PsyD is a psychologist in Washington State, serving the South Puget Sound and beyond. In her work with individuals and families, Dr. Jenkins employs interpersonal and cognitive-behavioral counseling techniques. She particularly enjoys helping those who struggle with infertility, perinatal anxiety and depression, bipolar disorder, parenting stress, perinatal/infant grief and loss, and specific issues related to maternal mental health. Danielle hosts the MamaThriveVillage blog and podcast at MamaThriveVillage.com. Check it out for tips and tricks to help on your parenting journey.

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Transcript

00:03

Welcome to the anxiety-proof her Podcast, where amazing women come for education, inspiration, and hope around healing from anxiety. Each month, you're going to hear from other women who took control of their mental health by using outside-the-box holistic strategies to cope with their anxiety and ultimately thrive. You will also learn from experts in the health and wellness industry, about the tools they use every day to help their patients reclaim their well-being. We hope this information allows you to see that there are many different paths to healing. I'm your host, Jennifer Brunswick. And I'm a licensed clinical social worker and anxiety treatment professional. I help women and teen girls who struggle with anxiety, self-doubt, and perfectionism to tap into their innate resilience, get to the root of their fears, and implement custom healing strategies so that they can experience peace of mind, more self-confidence, and be liberated from the suffering that living with anxiety causes. I have lived with anxiety my whole life, and know how hard it can be. I also know that there is hope. And it's 100% treatable with the right information and support. Thank you so much for showing up for yourself and taking the first step to reclaiming your well-being and resilience.

01:34

So welcome to the anxiety prove her podcast. As always, we start by centering so that you can get exactly what you need during this time. So take a moment, put both feet on the floor. And just bring your attention to the area of your heart center. Begin to breathe a little slower, a little deeper imagining as though the breath is coming in and out from your heart or chest area. If it feels comfortable, you might want to try breathing just a little bit slower, or taking in a little bit longer exhale, or inhale and letting the exhale go a little bit longer. And then just take a moment to remember the last time that you felt at peace. Maybe it was this morning, maybe it's a more distant memory. But allow that memory to guide you into feeling that same piece at this moment. And I just want to invite you to anchor in that feeling for while you're listening to this episode as well as the rest of your day so that you're taking in that sense of peace and come back to it. Any time you get stressed or triggered or someone bugs you just know that you can come back into peace. So today I'm so excited to have my friend Dr. Danielle Jenkins on the podcast. She is a psychologist in society and lives in Washington State. In her work with individuals and families, Dr. Jenkins employs interpersonal and cognitive-behavioral counseling techniques and she really enjoys helping those who struggle with infertility, perinatal anxiety and depression bipolar parenting stress, perinatal and infant grief, and loss as well as specific issues related to maternal mental health. She hosts the mama thrive village blog and podcast at mama thrive village calm, where you can visit for tips and tricks to help you along your parenting journey. So welcome to the podcast. And yeah,

04:16

thank you. I'm so thrilled to be here.

04:18

I'm really excited about this conversation because it's not something I've talked about in a while. And if you don't know me, well, you probably don't know that I suffered from postpartum anxiety and depression really strongly after my third child. And it was freaking hard. And the craziest thing was that they almost didn't realize how bad I was struggling until I started to feel a little bit better.

04:53

And common

04:54

is that's so interesting? Yeah, so it was like I knew I was having a hard time like I do my work. wasn't happy, and I was, you know, rageful a lot of the time. And, you know, had that, you know, a racing heart issue. But it wasn't until I was like a week like I got a good night's sleep. Holy crap, they felt horrible. And so I'm so happy that you're here because I want to hear from your perspective, what is What are you looking at when we're looking at perinatal? postpartum anxiety? What does that look like, and I'm sure it looks different for many people. So you know, feel free to explore the various, you know, symptoms that people might be seeing,

05:42

well, I think you hit you hit on something really important. And that is it looks different for everybody. We're really just starting to put together the list. Because for a long time, everything just came under this, this idea of postpartum depression, right? If it was in the postpartum time, it was postpartum depression, check it off, send them home, good luck, get some more sleep, stop breastfeeding, if it's causing you problems, get a babysitter done. And that or put them on some meds and then we're done. And, and that's just really not enough. There's such a variety of diagnoses, there's so there's postpartum anxiety that looks like you know, any other kind of anxiety, but with postpartum onset, or a postpartum exacerbation, so maybe somebody who had anxiety before, but now it's made worse by sleep deprivation, hormones, identity shifts. And all that happens in postpartum time. And currently made worse by a pandemic. And so, it can be things like worry, excessive worry, racing heart, like you said, feelings of doom, inability to sleep. And then it can there also be these components of obsessive and compulsive pieces. And so those can be part of postpartum anxiety. But they can also be there can also be postpartum OCD, which is really common. So I mean, I'm not the diagnosis isn't common, but it is common to have it start in either pregnancy or postpartum, which is something a lot of people don't realize is that you can have never had OCD. But have it come up during the perinatal time, interest in a pet because OCD has a strong link with strep and staph, which get stirred up in the perinatal timeframe.

08:15

So delivery

08:17

is that it can be because of different antibiotics that we are exposed to or not exposed to. They're still figuring that piece out. But there's definitely and depending on what type of medicine you go with, like allopathic medicine is very much like, you know, oh, it's it's their very discrete things, whereas naturopathic or functional medicine really sees the connection between strep and staph and the OCB type presentations. So a lot of it is related to is considered to be related to strep and staph in your gut. And so in many, I mean, we have those things in our gut. But if it's if there's an overgrowth of that, right, um, it certainly you're going to see a worsening of that. Now about 95% of new moms do experience what we consider scary thoughts, which can even be those like intrusive thoughts of dropping the baby or things like that. And that doesn't mean that 95% of those new parents have OCD. It's when those thoughts get to be excessive or you can't calm them down or you can't think of other things that that's, that's problematic or powerful,

09:50

right? So is there a specific time frame that you're looking at when diagnosing because I remember having this thought when I have First of like, what if I drop her down the stairs? Like that was like a constant one. And thankfully, I'd heard about scary thoughts, because I think otherwise I would have been scared of my thoughts and waiting, you know, more anxiety. It's like, Oh my god,

10:16

like, why am I thinking this about my newborn? Well, in in the postpartum time, and really any time, any time that that the worry or low mood or scary thoughts lasts for longer than two weeks, or are causing an impairment in functioning. That's when we want to get help, or we're seeing it as problematic. So like, if those if the thought of dropping the baby down the stairs is making it so that you won't leave the house, or you're only staying in one room, like you're realizing like you'd never leave the living room, or you're not taking a shower, or, like you're not doing normative behaviors, you're not taking the baby to the doctor, you're not going for walks you're not doing the things that you really should be doing it I love the word should but like that you would normally be doing

11:22

Yeah, desire. Why doing? Yeah, exactly.

11:26

That, that then it is problematic or pathological. And so pretty, you know, most parents have some of those scary thoughts. It's when it's, if it's keeping you awake at night, if you're not sleeping, when the baby's sleeping, because you're having so many of those scary thoughts or, you know, negative thoughts. That's when we know that maybe you need a little extra support.

12:01

Yeah.

12:04

So I just bring dads in for a second, do you think that dads have the similar level of increase in anxiety during this time? Or what would you say that like you see most likely happening with the men?

12:23

So some do. Um, so we know that we've mostly studied postpartum depression in men, more so than anxiety, but I do see anxiety. And particularly, we've mostly only studied heterosexual couples, which is so so please understand that it's mostly because we've only studied sure that so that's why I'm speaking about like the male, female dyad. But the we've studied mostly postpartum depression and dads. And so if their partner is depressed or anxious, they might also be. And certainly they could be depressed or anxious without their partner being that way, but it's less common. So So we've certainly noticed that there has been a dramatic increase. I've seen lots of different numbers, but I've seen 15%, I've seen 43% increase in particularly anxiety in new moms. And we're certainly seeing an increase in that and dads as well. And I would say everybody's getting less help. Not just because there's so much, there's so many more cases, right. And also, I think, I don't know, if therapy's less available, or if it's just there's so much more demand. But also, if you think about it, I was just talking with a friend about this, who was saying, I know, I know, I need to get I need to get a therapist. And I was like, No, and she was like, I've reached out, I reached out, but there's nobody available. I was like, she said that she's reached out to a couple of people. And they've said, you know, maybe in May, you know, and Sue and Eunice and she's been reaching out for like a year. And, um, and she said, You know, they're just not even seeing anybody right now. And I was like, Well, yeah, they're probably providing childcare or homeschooling or, you know, something for their kids. And so, they may just not even be they may not even be seeing class. No,

14:46

yeah, that was true for me over you know, when we all shut down for you know, a minute but then of course, like, you know, my practice then got you know, massively busy because I did you I start doing all telehealth, which I hope is that something that's obviously happening in Washington where people are,

15:10

oh, yeah, this friend was in Georgia. But um, so I think there's less telehealth going on there. Every everybody I know is doing at least mostly telehealth in Washington. Okay, because school, a lot of schools are still remote. Some have gone back here. But they're still like, it's more hybrid here. But yeah, we're, I'm fully telehealth still, and I probably will remain so at least for a while, if not indefinitely. I'm not sure. But yeah, I would it's nice for parents because they then don't even have to arrange for you know, transportation and childcare and all of that. That used to be barriers. It's a lot easier for my population and Miller, so

16:01

yeah.

16:03

Yeah, it's nice. Or or, you know, if they're, if they're both working from home, then they switch off for an hour rather than a two hour commute commitment. So yeah, it's nice.

16:16

Yeah, I almost can't believe that. Like, we did that before, like to go to therapy with kids. Like, it was like a full on commitment. Oh, yeah. 90 minutes of your time, two hours, like you said, and so I really appreciate now that, you know, they can it's an hour, they get what they need, they can get back to their kids. It's not, you know, they don't have to commute somewhere on Friday evening. I think, you know, that is an upside, but I do hear people saying like, Well, are you going to see people in person? Again,

16:54

that's like,

16:57

my claim telehealth, I think that because it was like, in some ways, it was like a little spa treatment for them. You know, like, it was, like, this is something I'm doing for myself. And it was maybe the only thing they did in the week, you know, or they went and they like, they got a babysitter for their kids. or someone you know, someone was taking care of their kids, or if they had a baby, they often brought the baby because babies coming. But um, you know, they would get themselves a coffee, they would take their time, they would, you know, like it was something they did for themselves, kind of like when we go get a haircut or a massage like that. You just like really like dig into it. Yeah, that's what they would do with therapy. And so I can see that moms really missed that. And so I often encouraged my moms to do that and say, like, you know, we'll go Go get yourself a coffee, or make yourself a treat, or something before and go for a drive and like, Let's meet her, you know, let's meet that way, you know, find a place or even like, drive to your business or your place of business, if you own a business and like, Can I tell the Wi Fi there? You know,

18:11

I love that I like that

18:12

or sit in the driveway. If that's a possibility, I have a ton of clients who meet with me, in their car in their garage, where they're connected to the Wi Fi. They're in their own little therapy pod. They've got their like, tricked out coffee. You know, they they brought a blanket in from the living room. Oh,

18:35

I love that you should totally do like a download of like how to make the most of your telehealth appointment?

18:42

Well, I should I should do like a video or podcast episode on that because, yeah, I have. I've sent out many, many email to my clients to say, let's just do a reminder of, like, let's make the most of these pandemic telehealth visits because, right, you know, like, I think it does, it does happen where we get lazy about it, right? where, you know, our part where we allow our partners to, like, let the kids walk in and out and, you know, like, or we are like, you know, making a sandwich.

19:20

Like right or

19:22

you know, those kinds of things which I am I'm adamant about you can't be driving. You can't be like doing something that's unsafe. And, and I will talk to people if they're doing things like laundry or cleaning or things like that, because occasionally there will be things like if someone's super activated, it helps to have something to do Sure. Okay, if it's more like I'm not really like taking less serious to talk about like, would you be doing this in my office because Right. And then,

20:02

yeah, like, would you be able to sit and be present for this normally, and it's it just feels like it's sort of like I'm multitasking, I get laundry and therapy at the same time. Which I get

20:14

right. I'm a big fan of multitask. I love listening to a podcast, I love listening book I love, you know, doing the dishes and the other thing and the tour, but therapy isn't really a time to do that.

20:28

Yeah. And then you just you miss out on I think some of those takeaways too. Yeah. So I want to come back to just to, like, really get clear around, okay, someone is struggling, they have anxiety, it's been going on for a couple of weeks. And also, or they're just really struggling, like, you know, not sleeping, you know, having a lot of, you know, are there any other things that are like, Okay, this is what I can handle at home versus what I need to go and find a therapist for, you know, or some sort of support system.

21:11

Yeah.

21:12

So,

21:13

I would say

21:14

if it's worry that like, they can corral themselves, so like, if it's worry, and they like, Can rein it in, or they're like, Oh, I'm going to take my comms magnesium drink. And like, I can turn it around, or, I can take an Epsom salt bath and get back on track. Or I can do some deep breathing or a tapping exercise, and get back on track, or I can call a friend, I can talk to my partner, something like that, and I'm back on track, then, then they don't need to see a professional, right, if going for a walk. If taking a shower, you know, those kinds of things, the simple things that we know how to do makes you feel better, gets you back on track, then you don't really need professional help. If it's an every once in a while kind of thing.

22:19

Then,

22:22

and we all have anxious days, that's that's part of life, especially part of life right now. I think everybody is more anxious. I think that if you aren't more anxious, I'm a little worried about you. Because, you know, it's a pandemic, right, we're getting constant messages of scarcity and, you know, worry and strife, and, you know, things are not right, so we're all going to be more anxious. But if doing more self care, doing those simple fixes, doesn't make you feel better. If you find yourself being rageful in your anxiety, if you find yourself being in panic, more than you know, once one time, you know, or more than I would say once a week in panic if you find yourself forgetting things or losing time, if you find yourself having such intrusive thoughts, such intrusive scary thoughts. If you find yourself being unable to sleep, or you know, in a in an excessive amount. And those those little fixes aren't working. That would be a time to get professional help. And I would say it's a little tricky to find a therapist right now, like I said, and so get on get on some waitlist if there are some or talk to your primary care provider or your ob gyn, your midwife whoever helped you with your baby and and see if they can support you while you're waiting. You know, talk to multiple go to multiple places to try to find support. They're also online mom support group. There's there's also perinatal support International. And they they have started in different states are having online therapists as well. So those are some places that I send people. You know, there's people like me who have perinatal training. So

25:14

yeah, I highly recommend that. Yeah, finding someone that understands this postpartum time because I've heard not such great stories of therapists that just didn't understand the different the changes the different diagnoses that you would possibly have during the postpartum period and gave some pretty terrible advice to new moms. So this certainly psi, as a great list of clinicians that have either done, you know, their training or a similar training,

25:48

it's true. And I would say, if you feel like your longtime therapist is no longer cutting, it's okay. That's what I hear this a lot or and I get a lot of referrals from people and I, I always hate to like throw other providers under the bus. Like that's not my goal like it. But the reality is, this is a specialty, and it's a fairly new specialty. When I started out, there really wasn't anybody doing what I do. Now there are there, there's actually a certificate, the pmh certificate that perinatal mental health. And, but I have heard so many, like you, you know, have, I've heard so many stories of people who have started with a provider, or they've seen somebody for one time, and then they have a baby, and it's no longer working, or they they're like, Oh, this advice is not working for me anymore. And it's often a wrong diagnosis. And, and in fairness to those providers, we don't get any training on this in our education. You have to seek it out after

26:59

totally. And it's a lot of times, in my experience, I shifted into the perinatal world, which I'm not really saying at this moment in time, after my own experience, was prone to depression. So I think many of the clinicians also have it's one of those, you know, specialties where a lot of the women have been through their own infertility loss, postpartum depression and have that lens as well, which I just feel like, you know, gives you a more empathetic provider, as you know, see that

27:33

person?

27:36

It's true, I came at it in a different way. But I think what what you're saying is the is the most common, I came at it because I was a postpartum doula, before I became a psychologist, and so

27:52

so I already knew about it. And so I was, throughout my training was bringing it up in courses and saying, why aren't we talking about this? Why aren't we I mean, this is a big part of human sexuality. This is a big part of feminist psychology. This is a big part of human development. This is a big part of even educational psychology, we have all of these kids with all of these developmental issues, and we need to talk about where they came from. Yeah, and what happened to their bonding and, um, why are we not addressing these issues? Such fashion, I think, I think I was I was the I was the squeaky wheel, and probably annoying to many of my professors. But, um, you know, I was like, this is a huge blind spot in our curriculum.

28:46

Yeah. Yeah. So, and we've talked about some things that aren't necessarily great. And that, you know, it's, it's hard to find a therapist. But I always love to leave people with a message of hope in my podcast. So I would love to hear from your perspective, how can a new mom estimate anxiety? Just access that hope? Right?

29:16

Yeah, well, there is a lot of hope. So there's a lot of there's a lot happening in the world right now toward helping new moms. In particular with anxiety. I think more women are talking about this. More women are acknowledging that parenting is not easy, that it doesn't really look like a Pinterest page or you know, a sunny advertisement that it's a lot Messier. And while it it brings great joy it is also you know, rife with anxiety and stress. I mean, that it's that it's both and that, and people are being more honest about that, which I think is helpful. Because then you're not alone. I think that there's a lot more tools out

30:13

there.

30:16

I think that there's a lot of simple things that people can do to feel better, even if it's just a walk, or taking magnesium or asking someone to help them so they can get a nap, or a bath. Or go to therapy for an hour. Or you know, those types of things.

30:48

I love that. There's always like, one more thing you could try. Yeah, there's always you know, something else if it's not working, like don't quit looking. You know, I think that's a message I'm hearing from you. So thank you, Danielle, please tell everyone how, again to find your work because they could also listen to your podcast, which I'm sure you know, has lots of resources and tools that they can try.

31:20

Yeah, so my website would that has the resources and the podcast and the blog is mama thrive village calm. And the podcast is also called mama thrive village. So it's mama thrive village podcast. And it's wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find it. And there's lots of episodes about just a mom stuff, including things like mothering yourself and managing, you know, just different, like tricks for supporting your marriage, things like that. And most recently, we did a little bonus episode with people's answers to the question that I ask pretty much everyone who comes on which is what is your parenting superpower? Which was a really fun one. It's a compilation of everyone's answer. So that was a fun one. And and then, for people in Washington who would like to see me or my colleagues for perinatal issues. My website is Danielle Jenkins, sidey calm and on there also, we have a health coach who can see people all over the world. And she helps people with anxiety. And so that's an extra special support. And so she can really help people with a couple of sessions to just help with that gut issue if they do have a gut issue that's contributing to something like those scary thoughts. And so that's a resource that we have available. And you can follow me on Facebook and Instagram, also. My my thrive village or even Danielle Jenkins site. Nice. Awesome,

33:16

thank you. Thank you for all your amazing work in the world and for sharing your time and wisdom. With us today. I really appreciate you.

33:26

Thank you. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yes, Bye, everyone.

33:30

Have a great day. Thank you so much for taking the time to invest in your well being. I hope you learned at least one new idea or technique that you might want to implement into your own life. Remember, you're not alone, there is hope and with the right information and support you can thrive. If you're dealing with panic or looking for step by step process that will allow you to break free from this crippling fear state. I want to invite you to check out my panic attack Survival Guide, you can grab your free copy at www dot Jennifer bronsnick.com Thanks for listening