Dr. Cohen is a clinical psychologist. She is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership Afterglow: The Light at the Other Side of Divorce. Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the Center for CBT in NYC. Dr. Cohen’s online course teaches women how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce no matter how difficult the process has been. Dr. Cohen received her Ph.D. in clinical psychology from Boston University. She was the recipient of the prestigious American Psychological Foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects of 9/11. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall Show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women’s Health, Huff Post, Thrive Global, Daily Beast, and Good Housekeeping.
Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her “Divorce Course” column. Dr. Cohen hosts the Divorce Doctor podcast where she interviews people about their divorce experiences. Dr. Cohen’s book based on her Afterglow program entitled, Light at The Other Side of Divorce: Discovering the New You will be published in April 2021.
Learn more and follow at
drelizabethcohen.com
IG @thedivorcedoctor
FB The Divorce Doctor
Thank you so much for tuning in!
If you are looking for solutions that will allow you to break free from negative thought patterns, worrying, and the uncomfortable symptoms that are caused by anxiety check out Jennifer's website at www.jenniferbronsnick.com or join the Anxiety-Proof Her Facebook Community HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/anxietyproofher
Dr. Cohen is a clinical psychologist. She is the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership Afterglow: The Light at the Other Side of Divorce. Dr. Cohen is the CEO of the Center for CBT in NYC. Dr. Cohen’s online course teaches women how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce no matter how difficult the process has been. Dr. Cohen received her Ph.D. in clinical psychology from Boston University. She was the recipient of the prestigious American Psychological Foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects of 9/11. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall Show, the Wall Street Journal, NBC News, Women’s Health, Huff Post, Thrive Global, Daily Beast, and Good Housekeeping.
Dr. Cohen is a weekly contributor to Psychology Today with her “Divorce Course” column. Dr. Cohen hosts the Divorce Doctor podcast where she interviews people about their divorce experiences. Dr. Cohen’s book based on her Afterglow program entitled, Light at The Other Side of Divorce: Discovering the New You will be published in April 2021.
Learn more and follow at
drelizabethcohen.com
IG @thedivorcedoctor
FB The Divorce Doctor
Thank you so much for tuning in!
If you are looking for solutions that will allow you to break free from negative thought patterns, worrying, and the uncomfortable symptoms that are caused by anxiety check out Jennifer's website at www.jenniferbronsnick.com or join the Anxiety-Proof Her Facebook Community HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/anxietyproofher
00:03
Welcome to the anxiety proof her Podcast, where amazing women come for education, inspiration and hope around healing from anxiety. Each month, you're going to hear from other women who took control of their mental health by using outside the box holistic strategies to cope with their anxiety and to ultimately thrive. You will also learn from experts in the health and wellness industry, about the tools they use every day to help their patients reclaim their well being. We hope this information allows you to see that there are many different paths to healing. I'm your host, Jennifer Bronsnick, and I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and anxiety treatment professional. I help women and teen girls who struggle with anxiety, self doubt, and perfectionism to tap into their innate resilience, get to the root of their fears, and implement custom healing strategies so that they can experience peace of mind, more self confidence and be liberated from the suffering that living with anxiety causes. I have lived with anxiety my whole life, and know how hard it can be. I also know that there is hope, and it's 100% treatable with the right information and support. Thank you so much for showing up for yourself and taking the first step to reclaiming your wellbeing and resilience.
01:34
Welcome to the anxiety proofer cast. As always, we start by centering ourselves so that we are able to receive exactly what we need during this time. So whether the content of this episode is something that you are thinking about or considering. Just take a moment just to ask, you know, what do I need, what do I need right now. And maybe the wisdom will come through either my guest or from myself. So just take a moment just to breathe, breathing into your heart center, allowing that space to open even more. So coming into this time with an open heart with an open mind and an intention of allowing. And if at any time during this episode, you notice tension, stress, anxiety coming in. Just remember to come right back into your heart center and to drop into that space of coolness and that the trust and trusting of yourself that you are fully supported during this time. Oh, so today I am so excited to have my friend my confidant and Polly pet Dr. Elizabeth Cohen joining us on the podcast today. She's a clinical psychologist, the CEO and founder of the online divorce course and membership afterglow, the light side of the light at the other side of divorce. Dr. Cohen is a CEO of the Center for CBT and NYC. She teaches online courses to women on how to heal, grow and thrive after divorce no matter how difficult it's been. She has a PhD in clinical psychology from Boston University. And she was awarded the prestigious American Psychological foundation foundation Research Award for her research on the emotional effects after 911. She has been featured on the Tamron Hall show the Wall Street Journal NBC News, women's health have post thrive go global pretty much everywhere. You can find her she's on psychology today. And I'm so excited for her because she has a book coming out at the end of this month, which you should definitely go and buy, which is based off her program the light at the other side of divorce discovering the new you and you can learn more about all of this at Dr. Elizabeth Cohen calm which I'll repeat at the end of this episode. Thank you Thank you for being here and for all of your genius that you're bringing to the world.
04:53
I'm so happy to be here. Thank
04:54
you so much for having me. Yes. So
04:57
I wanted to get started because Cuz I always am curious. What did you pick divorce as what you want to heal in the world? Hmm? Well,
05:14
in when I was in grad school we talked about researches me search,
05:19
the very often right or drawn to
05:26
work that is
05:28
in sync with where we are and who we are and how we've healed or what we need to heal. And
05:36
I created this work and this program and the book. Because when I was going through my divorce 11 years ago, I opened the laptop, typed in divorce recovery program and couldn't find anything. Now, 11 years, 11 years ago, there was nothing. And I didn't realize until recently, but that by seeing nothing there.
05:59
I thought, there Batman, I
06:02
wasn't going to heal, like I
06:04
basically that was sending me the message, stop looking because this is terrible, and you're suck. And I never wanted anyone to have to go through that again. So I was privileged with my education to be able to piece it together very, very slowly and heal myself. But from from moments of being like on my hands and knees in the fetal position, just
06:26
desperately, desperately sad,
06:29
to the abundant, loving full life that I have now
06:35
has been the most amazing journey. And I wanted to help people see that you can have this be an opportunity or a journey to know yourself better or a journey to thrive. And we still have such a stigma against divorce, oh, I really wanted to shake that up and let people know that you can heal, and you can thrive and you can have it better than you ever imagined.
07:02
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing that that is still true. And yet so many marriages end in divorce. So you'd think
07:12
that there would be you know, so much more
07:15
out there since Isn't it like 50% versus even more?
07:21
Yeah, it's like 60% for a second, and like 78 per third. So there are a lot of people who are divorced and the fact that we still look at it as such an anomaly. I think it's because of how we just glorify marriage in general or being in relationship with anyone that that is the sign of success. And so, because when a relationship ends, we see that, you know, as the end of a marriage that was supposed to stay forever, it's a failure. In my book, I talk about really, using some cognitive tools to shift how you think about divorce that, you know, imagine thinking about it as my relationship came to its perfect conclusion. Right, my partner, and I got everything we could from this partnership, and we're ready to release it.
08:14
Just how you think about it will really shift how you step into that next stage.
08:21
Yeah, I mean, I just felt that in my body just like a relaxing versus if even just hear it. My parents are divorced. You know, so like, I think there is that like, interaction around it? Yes. An emotional with it. But just hearing you say that, I think it like it just relaxes you. Like it puts your body more in that state of ease. Yeah. And so from that place, like, you know, imagine that like, doors are opening? Yes, I'm thinking,
08:54
exactly. And if anyone who's gone through divorce, or had parents who went through a divorce, you know that it is incredibly trying, I mean, there's a lot of logistics that you have to figure out. And we know that the frontal cortex is the part of our brain that we use for problem solving for delegating for rat being having rational thought. And the more that our emotional part of our brain, our amygdala is flooded with cortisol, the less likely they are to talk. So when you do these cognitive strategies of,
09:25
okay, like my divorce
09:28
is an is a moment where I'm pausing from something that isn't working for me, but did what it needed to do, then you're calming your nervous system, so you can really access
09:40
the part of your brain that you need for meeting with a lawyer for meeting with a financial planner for decorating a new house like that's what I want people to do is really think about healing and turning inward and taking care of your nervous system. So that all the challenges of the divorce you can handle better and when more ease.
10:01
Yeah. So let's say that someone is considering divorce, you know, or they've started the process. I imagine that there are many, many fears, thoughts, anxieties, worries that come up. Can you speak to some of like, the most common ones that you see in your clients? And also, I'll ask it again, if we get sidetracked is, how do you work with that?
10:31
Yeah. What will you do with that? So for sure, one of the biggest ones is, am I going to screw up my kids?
10:39
Right. So the fear that getting divorce is going to ruin their children, that they're going to have mental health issues, that they're going to feel uncomfortable that they're going to do poor, more important school.
10:52
And here's a few things that I say.
10:54
One is research shows that kids living with two parents who are disconnected or arguing, who are passive aggressive, which I consider still aggressive, is way more detrimental to their mental health, than if the two parents split.
11:14
Wow, okay. Children do not
11:18
have the capacity to understand the complexity of a relationship, they can't understand the nuance. So what they do, and you probably teach this, too, is that they look to what's happening and try to understand how they can control it in the sense of what are they doing wrong. So if there's tension, if even though you know, it has nothing to do with your child, they're going to feel that way. And that's going to make them feel very insecure. That's why the data shows that. So the first thing I just share the data.
11:51
The second thing that I
11:53
give this example all the time, because a lot of times I hear, you know, I'm gonna wait till my kids go to college, and then we'll split right? You hear that? And I often you'd say, Okay, I want you to imagine that you have a daughter, and she comes to you, she's in 10th grade, she comes to you, and she says, I just got assigned a new chemistry partner. And, you know, they're, they're fine. They do well in chemistry, but
12:17
I don't know, I don't have that much fun with them.
12:19
And they're kind of boring. And I think they really listened to me that well, but all my friends have partners and relationships. So I'm going to date this person until I go to college. And then I'm sure when I go to college, I'll meet someone really cool. What would you say to your daughter? Right? Would
12:32
you be like, that? Sounds like a great plan. C No, no, no,
12:35
girl, you
12:36
could do so much better, whatever. Right? Right. And so why, you know, one, why wouldn't you give yourself that same advice. And two, if you stay, that's what you're teaching your kids that's sticking it out. That staying in something uncomfortable, is how relationships go. So do you really want to be modeling that? So when people say like, you know, divorce doesn't screw up the kids, I want people to look at the data and then also more nuanced piece. So I really help I actually have a new course that's free course that's on my website called how not to screw up your kids, three secrets from a psychologist where I talk about, you know, really, some of the top things to do to really shore up your kids when they're going through a divorce, so that they can thrive. Because it it doesn't have to be nothing is one way, if you put in the time, I'm sure your listeners are listening to your podcast, they do this, if you put in the time to help your kids through it. And follow some of the tools and tips that I give. It doesn't have to be painful for them.
13:45
Yeah. So what's coming up for me is that you know what, I hear it a lot, you know, in my life and with my clients is one partner would be willing to do that to do the work to put it in. And then another partner is maybe not as emotionally mature, as you know the other one and I'm not sure having labeled gender any of that on there. So you know, what is you know, what comes up for that cuz it's sort of like, you know, thinking, Well, you know, if one parent is that mostly true one, what like what happens when that they're at the other person's house?
14:27
And they're out there?
14:28
Totally. Well, that's one of the hardest things of CO parenting brings people to their knees which is that really and truly the other person's house is none of your business like it's really isn't like, you can only control yourself. You can only control what happens in your home I can promise you from my own experience, even if you think you're sending like the slickest most non obvious text, asking what time did you put the kids to bed they know
14:56
and anyone who's
14:57
ever been told what to do knows what happened. You just put your, you know, dig your heels in harder for anyone who has children, right. So like, your ex is just gonna get more intense on the fact that like, No, they are putting the kids to bed at the right time like it, it just does not work like it. And it is really hard. That's what my program, my book tries to help you with those emotions, like how to manage the fact that it's really hard and frustrating. And I think it's really important to know that so many people underestimate the power of fair parenting. You know, again, research shows kids need one
15:33
emotional grown up
15:35
who can be present in their life, they
15:37
have more than one fantastic. There are people who grew up who don't have parents who do this. So it's a teacher, right? I mean, it doesn't have to be a parent, even, they need someone who sees you who validates you, who helps you understand that what you're experiencing is real. And so if they had that with one parent, they're going to go to that other parents house and be like, this isn't cool. Like a client of mines daughter said, like, I don't like this when we're at daddy's like, I have to put myself to sleep. I don't like that. I'd like when you put me to sleep, right? So she knows that that's problematic. Even if the dead never puts her to sleep, that girl is walking around with the knowledge.
16:17
There's nothing wrong with her for wanting something. And that's so important for for moving forward and development.
16:26
Yeah, no, that's, I think, really powerful to think of, like just that one person. And, you know, I was thinking, well, we can always bring in other people too, you know, we're having a hard time and I'm just thinking of like someone going through divorce, like, how incredibly stressful that is. Yeah, that you know, maybe at the time, neither parent really has capacity in the moment. And so just the idea of like, we can bring in other, you know, support people. Yeah, that time.
16:56
Yeah, I have a whole chapter in the book about about friends and foes like who to bring in I mean, I, it took a village, I had friends who, you know, I would just call and say, I can't do this, because I might have a situation I kicked my ex husband out. So I was single parenting for two years. And so my kids were two and six months old. So I would call and just say, Come get them. And they would just come show up.
17:18
There were other people who I
17:20
couldn't do that, because they weren't, didn't have the same emotional
17:23
capacity.
17:25
So I knew to go to them. Like if I wanted to go out for a girls night. And so the chapter is really about, like how to be very discerning about who can give you what, yeah, but I think a huge part that people struggle with and for after divorce is asking for what they need, because probably in the relationship as it ended, that was muted a bit. And so learning how to say I need some help. I can't do this myself. And that could be to friends. That could be to teachers, you know, that could be most schools have guidance counselor's. You know, really saying like, this is happening in our family and our family needs a lot of support.
18:05
So let's go back to the fears.
18:07
We talked a little bit about the kid one is about the kids.
18:10
Yeah, yeah,
18:11
I that I assume that was gonna be that. Yeah,
18:14
I get a really, that's a really big one. Another one is, I'll never be able to find love again, like that something that I'll never, you know, I've kind of failed at love. And I mean, I'm a testament to that this that is deeply not true. But if you are willing, so I tell the story also in the book that I was sitting at the playground with some parents, and they asked me Oh, you know, the kids dad, we don't see him that much. What's the story, and I started regaling them with some stories that are very colorful and very intense. And they were getting really emotional and validating my experience and, and I left the playground. And after having felt kind of
18:57
good about
18:58
like their understanding me, I started walking away from the playground and every step I took, I felt worse and worse and worse. And I thought, you know what, I wasn't just telling a neutral story. That was me in that story. Like, that was my experience. And I, I just had this more thought, am I going to spend the rest of my life telling
19:20
stories about him?
19:22
Or am I going to figure out, how did I get here in a very, like, non judgmental, compassionate, loving way? Like, how did I find myself here? And that was really a moment of shifting where I stopped taking his inventory. I stopped focusing on him even talking about him to others, and really tried to understand what are my patterns? What, what have I been attracted to before? What was this unconsciously pulling me and that's how I was able to do the work to finally be in a relationship with someone totally different. And I always say this and a colleague of mine said the same experience. I don't think I would have been emotionally attracted to my amazing husband that I'm married to now, if I hadn't done that work.
20:08
So can you talk a little bit more about what that work?
20:12
Yeah, sure. So in the book, I had created a, something called the relationship pattern excavator, where you really
20:20
gently and lovingly, look at some of the behaviors that you engage in, in relationships. So everything from you know, how
20:30
quickly did we start dating?
20:32
How quickly?
20:33
Did we become intimate?
20:36
How quickly do I end relationships? Do I prolong them kind of just like really going through lots of different aspects to understand what your patterns are? And then we go into,
20:49
Hmm,
20:50
what might that pattern be similar to? Is there something that maybe you went through in your past that looks familiar? And we kind of can start piecing out? What is it that's been drawing you to the people you've been drawn to? And if some of that's good, great, are there any behaviors you want to try differently? So it's really a behavioral expert
21:13
practice.
21:16
Because for example, if you're someone who dates jumps into dating pretty fast, like then maybe what you want to try do a little experiment, see what it's like to wait two more days before you text or go on another date. And just notice how it feels. So it's really, I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist. So it's a very kind of behavioral exposure approach to understanding your patterns.
21:41
So part of that is getting uncomfortable on purpose. Because I'd imagine if you've had a pattern that's most likely been unconscious, because it you know, in my own life, and in my research as well. My research Yeah, exactly. Or it's, it's sometimes those things that feel exciting and thrilling. Yes, are actually not things that are going to be long term Good for you. Oh,
22:12
my God. So well said, I mean, I,
22:14
I remember, I
22:15
had a colleague, I'll never forget this. and I were talking about this, that we had to tell our clients, which they hated that the guy or the woman that you're usually like, super attracted to, like, try maybe not going out with that person and the person who makes you a little uncomfortable. give them another try and see what that feels like and see what's making you uncomfortable. Another pattern is like, not going out with people who seem too nice. Okay, which I've seen a lot. And that's like, that makes me uncomfortable. Okay, so can you step into that, and just examine really non judgmentally what it feels like to be with someone who you would term quote, unquote,
22:56
too nice.
22:57
Yeah.
22:58
I mean, it's tricky with me with the nice thing because sometimes, like I go with, like, niceness, versus like true kindness, you know, where Sam's like, you know, kind can be honest, we're nine times is like,
23:19
a good point. I
23:19
mean, the number one quality I realized that I didn't know I needed is humility.
23:25
Hmm. Okay. And, and that was something that I only realized, by really looking at the past and patterns of people I had been with in my life and what they were lacking in some ways, and humility was a big one. And I didn't even in my situation, because I'm heterosexual. As for men, I didn't know for me that men could be humble. And so I needed to do a lot of exposure even to different types of men, and really been honed in on that. So I have clients who know, they kind of think about what's the number one thing for me to renew is humility for another client of mine. It's consistency,
24:02
right? Like, what
24:02
is the thing that you didn't have that you want to see if you can actually be comfortable with because a lot of times people get out of marriage and think,
24:09
Oh, my God, I never want to be in that kind of situation. But they find themselves again, in the same one. I really want to have people practice trying it a little differently.
24:18
Yeah. Okay. So that fear was never finding someone else. But what you're saying is that by doing the work by noticing your patterns by getting a little uncomfortable, that that is 100% possible. And that's been your experience that now you're remarried craft and enjoying marriage better than the first time around.
24:43
Beyond I mean, I mean, loving it every second even the hard parts. Yeah,
24:49
yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Okay, so let's do one more fear that you see.
24:57
Yeah. So the fear that I send out Fear, I would say is this idea of like, Who the hell am I?
25:03
So after my,
25:04
you know, I've been trying to kind of make this marriage work, whether you were the one who chose the divorce or not, and been a parent for all these years, and now suddenly I have this, let's say, I have a weekend when I'm by myself, What do I even like? What do I want without another person there to tell me or to play off of? A friend of mine says, like, you know, with a real the real list, please stand up like Who is that? Right? Like, who am I any more and so a huge part of the healing and the recovery of a divorce is figuring out what do you like? I have a chapter in my book called Living life by design, not by default, where I talk about really looking again behaviourally at each hour of the day, and what would you do in an ideal day? What do you really want? Do you want to, you know, lights and candles and take a bath? Or do you want to go to an intense workout
25:59
class?
26:00
Do you want to paint your walls purple? Or do you want to have them
26:04
white?
26:04
Like, let's
26:06
experiment with what you actually want? Because I think that's why a lot of people hold back from getting divorced. They don't know what they'll do with themselves. But the truth is, you're basically reconnecting to a part of you, that's always been there, and is your most precious, amazing part. It's your spirit. And so if we can, if I can help you identify with that connect to that, then you're going to start knowing exactly what you want.
26:38
So
26:41
I think there's so many different fears we could cover, but I want to just go back to that person who might be thinking, like, okay, maybe this marriage isn't everything that I desire, or, you know, or I've been told that, like, I'm not, you know, what my partner desires anymore? Right? So were like, what's the first thing that you do? Where do you like, is it? Is there a mental mindset that you need to start practicing? Or is it more logistical, like outward actions that have to start happening? Oh, no, definitely
27:21
internal. Okay, definitely. I start with the internal. I mean, so this if someone is, is one feeling like things aren't going well, in the marriage, I'm not sure if I can stay, I would say, I want us I would want to help that person really start turning up the volume on connecting to their needs, and their wants, and hearing what their inner voice is saying to them. I have people ask me all the time, should I stay? Or should I go? One thing, it's really important that there's, it's not just Should I stay? Or should I go? It's, I'm going, I'm staying or I'm not sure. Those are all different states. So the not being sure is an actual state to be in. And that's an okay beautiful space to be. So don't, you know, kill yourself because you're not in
28:11
staying or leaving? Yeah,
28:12
it takes time. On my podcast, I talk with so many women who've gone through divorce, and it takes them a long time to decide. It's not overnight. And what I would recommend is just really starting to tune in, whether it's through journaling, whether it's through meditation, whether it's through working with a therapist, or coach, to what you're feeling, and what you're noticing, without judgment. And without reacting. You don't have to, you know, thoughts or not actions, you can have a thought and a feeling and just notice it.
28:43
And eventually, the more you listen,
28:46
the more you'll hear.
28:48
And you'll know what to do next. So the answer is really to start listening and tuning in more to yourself.
28:56
So in that moment, where you said to your husband, okay, it's time that you know, it was time.
29:03
Well, my circumstance, my ex husband suffered from alcohol addiction, and I tried everything I could to help get him sober. And interestingly, for me, I mean, I'm sure my friends would have had many other times before I was ready, which is important to know, like, no one's ready until they're ready. Like my friends were probably ready a year earlier. The moment that I interestingly, that I realized was when I realized that his dysfunctional behavior had nothing to do with me, and everyone listening my thing. Of course, it didn't like he's drinking, and it's and he's an alcoholic, and he suffers from a disease. It didn't have anything to do with you. But I kept telling myself if I just did this, or if I just tried this, then maybe he would stop. And there was this very drastic moment where I realized that I had nothing to do with it anymore. I never did. And I was able to say this is his thing, and I have to step away from it. So it was a moment of real kind of reclaiming myself and my dignity and and not taking responsibility anymore for him.
30:08
Yeah. And of power and bravery. All the feelings, all the things. So for someone listening, whether they're contemplating, or in the middle of a divorce, or class or divorce, is there a final message of hope or anything that you feel like they need to hear?
30:34
Yes. So I call the people who have gone through my program and have gotten my book and I've gone through divorce, superheroes. going through a divorce is heroic. What you have to manage between co parenting and the legal aspect and the financial aspect is, it's, it's heroic, and you are so brave. For stepping into it, whether you've asked for the divorce or you've accepted the divorce, you are doing something
31:04
so heroic, because you're saying what's if something isn't working for me, I'm going to accept it. Either. I'm going to ask for the divorce or I'm going to accept the divorce when another person wants it. So most people are too afraid to do that. To say something isn't working for me. But you are so brave, that you allow it.
31:24
So that's what I want to say to people who are going through divorce, see yourself as so brave. Beautiful, I love that.
31:32
So where I know I said it earlier, but where should people follow you? Social What's your favorite site? Where can they get the book?
31:42
Yeah.
31:43
So you can get the book light at the other side of divorce, discovering the new you at Amazon, and I'm on Instagram at the divorce doctors, the divorce doctor, and my website is Dr. Elizabeth Cohen calm that's b r Elizabeth Cohen calm. And they're there. I have so many resources there. I have guides I have, how to help you get through your divorce. I have as I mentioned this masterclass on how to not screw up your kids going through divorce. So check it out. There's
32:11
a lot there.
32:13
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience, your professional experience, and I know that anyone listening is going to feel more empowered after this conversation. So thank you.
32:28
Thank you for having me. It's been really wonderful.
32:33
Thank you so much for taking the time to invest in your well being. I hope you learned at least one new idea or technique that you might want to implement into your own life. Remember, you're not alone, there is hope and with the right information and support you can thrive. If you're dealing with panic are looking for a step by step process that will allow you to break free from this crippling fear state. I want to invite you to check out my panic attack Survival Guide, you can grab your free copy at www dot Jennifer bronsnick.com Thanks for listening