Jen Rozenbaum is a portrait photographer, author, breast cancer survivor, hostess of the Shamelessly Feminine® podcast, and the founder of the Reconstruction™ movement. Through her work, she is helping women celebrate their unique femininity and helping breast cancer patients and survivors put their lives back together after cancer.
Learn more and connect with Jen at https://jenrozenbaum.com/
Thank you so much for tuning in!
If you are looking for solutions that will allow you to break free from negative thought patterns, worrying, and the uncomfortable symptoms that are caused by anxiety check out Jennifer's website at www.jenniferbronsnick.com or join the Anxiety-Proof Her Facebook Community HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/anxietyproofher
Jen Rozenbaum is a portrait photographer, author, breast cancer survivor, hostess of the Shamelessly Feminine® podcast, and the founder of the Reconstruction™ movement. Through her work, she is helping women celebrate their unique femininity and helping breast cancer patients and survivors put their lives back together after cancer.
Learn more and connect with Jen at https://jenrozenbaum.com/
Thank you so much for tuning in!
If you are looking for solutions that will allow you to break free from negative thought patterns, worrying, and the uncomfortable symptoms that are caused by anxiety check out Jennifer's website at www.jenniferbronsnick.com or join the Anxiety-Proof Her Facebook Community HERE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/anxietyproofher
00:03
Welcome to the anxiety proof her Podcast, where amazing women come for education, inspiration and hope around healing from anxiety. Each month, you're going to hear from other women who took control of their mental health by using outside the box holistic strategies to cope with their anxiety and to ultimately thrive. You will also learn from experts in the health and wellness industry, about the tools they use every day to help their patients reclaim their well being. We hope this information allows you to see that there are many different paths to healing. I'm your host, Jennifer Bronsnick. And I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and anxiety treatment professional. I help women and teen girls who struggle with anxiety, self doubt, and perfectionism to tap into their innate resilience, get to the root of their fears, and implement custom healing strategies so that they can experience peace of mind, more self confidence and be liberated from the suffering that living with anxiety causes. I have lived with anxiety my whole life, and know how hard it can be. I also know that there is hope. And it's 100% treatable with the right information and support. Thank you so much for showing up for yourself and taking the first step to reclaiming your well being and resilience. Welcome to the anxiety prep guide cast as always, we start becoming center coming home and our bodies. So just take a moment. And notice if there's any part of you that is calling for attention right now. That could be your heart or your mind, or some part of your body. That's just saying, notice me a little bit. So just take a moment to bring your full attention to that area, that part of your body. That imagine that as you breathe in, you're breathing and healing your breathing and peace to that space. And as you're exhaling, you're sending out those feelings of peace and healing to others, maybe someone in your home or someone in your community and just continuing to breathe. And then setting the intention that during this podcast that anytime your mind wanders, you get distracted, just come right back into that space that's calling for a little bit of extra love today because I think we all need to send ourselves a little bit of extra love every day.
02:59
So today on
03:01
the podcast, I'm super excited to have Jen Rosenbaum. I've been watching her fangirling her for a while now after my friend will like introduce me to her work. She's a portrait photographer and author of breast cancer survivor hostess of the shamelessly feminine podcast and founder of the reconstruction movement. Through her work, she is helping women to celebrate their unique femininity, and helping breast cancer patients and survivors to put their lives together, back together after cancer. So welcome. Thanks for being here.
03:42
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. I'm so lovely. How you first the podcast is so nice. Oh good. I'm
03:48
glad you like it. Yeah,
03:50
I think it's just as
03:50
much for me for you know, as it is for everyone listening because you're just coming into any conversation from a heart-centered space, you know, it changes the dynamic of it.
04:06
And when you said ask your body what it needs right now, or ask your heart what it needs right now. It's amazing because I think, I don't know your listeners, obviously. But I think I'm assuming that probably they're mostly women. And we're so good at asking everybody else what they need. Right. And that's a good asking ourselves. Yeah.
04:27
So this is a podcast about anxiety. So I would love to hear just a brief you know, arc of your experience with fear in your life and what you found to be that you know, the maybe that like one thing that you could say, Wow, like that was really transformational for me in my in my journey.
04:53
You know, I have a whole chapter about it in my book about cancer because you think you know, fear and Until you're diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, and then you're like, oh, all the other things I ever felt in my life were just practicing this, you know, this is the real deal. I think that the biggest takeaway I have about dealing with fear is being very real with myself and asking my brain, are you telling me the truth right now. And, you know, this is something I've even used in me, my daughter suffers from anxiety, this is something that I will use with her often I will say, you know, is your mind telling you the truth? Or is it lying to you right now? And sometimes I find that it's very black and white, where I, you know, for example, you know, obviously, cancer is definitely something to be afraid of, for sure. Right. And so that is the truth. I shouldn't be afraid of that. But at the moment, is it going to kill me? Is it you know what I'm saying? So like, no, right now, it's not the truth. So I need to like shelve, that anxiety, and shelve that fear so that I can handle getting rid of cancer or battling cancer or whatever it might be. So I think just really checking in and thinking, I often think, my body for the anxiety, I'll say, thank you for protecting me. Thank you for warning me. I don't need you right now. You know,
06:11
come back later.
06:14
Come back later. Because sometimes it's, it's the truth, and it's nagging at you. And it's your intuition, and you need to listen, and other times, it's just coming from your mind. You know, when it comes from your heart, it comes from your mind, I think it's two different things. And the mind is often very tricky, and it lies to you pretty often. Oh,
06:33
yeah, definitely. I think I love that idea of that dialogue, where it's like, you're talking to it, it's like, okay, is this something right now? And I love that you really bring it to the present moment? Is there something I need to do? Or is this because anxiety? You know, if you've listened to the podcast, we talked about a lot of anxiety, and it wants certainty and comfort? Yeah. And if that's, you know, and that's really what it is. So it's like, is this thing is this fear? You know, because I'm striving for control for certainty,
07:06
or comfort, right?
07:09
So, the other reason I really wanted to have you on is because I, I watched you on social, and you were so brave and vulnerable, and you put yourself out there in such a way that I think inspires other people to, you know, maybe not be as brave, but maybe a little bit more brave. So is the process that you just mentioned, the process that you go through before, you know, sharing of yourself and being vulnerable? Or would you say like that you're just more of an extroverted person? Or is there like some talk in the background that you still have to work with?
07:52
Well, thank you very much for saying that. I'm assuming you mean, I do put pictures out of my chest, I have had a double mastectomy and reconstruction. And I put many photos out about that, and showing that and it is very vulnerable. And it is very scary. And there's often times that I'll post a picture and then put my phone down for hours, because I'm like, I don't even want to see what anybody has to say about it, you know, I but the thing that that keeps me going and keeps me doing it and pushes me is the fact that I get messages every single day from people. I just got one today, right before I came on with you actually, which I'll I'll give you really quick. She just basically said, I've been following your YouTube and I started following me on Instagram, you've helped me so much to my breast cancer journey. I have reconstruction coming up in a few weeks. Thank you for your transparency and vulnerability. And that and that's a really general message. I often get messages from people that say I don't I didn't know how to handle this, or I didn't know how to do that, or I wasn't educated about this. And you helped me, you know, recently I had an infection and one of my breasts after surgery, and a woman wrote to me and said, I just had an infection and I wouldn't have known if it wasn't for you. So things like that. Or you know, I found a lump and I had a mammogram and turns out I was diagnosed it's only because I follow you on on Instagram, things like that, when you have purpose is so much bigger than the fear and the anxiety. And I just say to myself, you know, what, if I don't show up, then what happens? Hmm. Wow.
09:21
That's a really powerful question. I love that. I'm definitely writing that one. Yeah, down. Yeah. So,
09:29
you know, you
09:29
talked about, you know, having a purpose. And it sounds like your photography, at least at one point in your life that that was this calling that you? Can you talk a little bit about how you knew that was a purpose? Because I think you know, and what you're saying is that having the purpose really helps when you're in fear that when you can hold on to like, what's my value, what's my vision? Where am I going with this? that you're able to put sounds like it's a tolerate the discomfort a little bit more because there's something bigger that you're striving for. But I often hear, especially for women, it's like, I forgot my pride. Where would I even find like is having a store? Right? The grocery aisle somewhere? So what was the clue? You know, how did you get to like, you know, speaking specifically more about your photography? That like, first time?
10:33
Yeah. So, back in 2008, I was trying to have another baby, I had a daughter and I was trying to have another baby and I went through a lot of complications, miscarriages, ectopic pregnancy, surgeries, botched D and C's. I mean, you name it, it was like a process, you know. And it was during that time that I discovered photography, and I and I picked up a camera and taught myself had to take pictures as a distraction, because I just felt very much in the thick of the depression, anxiety, fear, you know, am I ever gonna have another baby and if I can't protect babies in my own body, then were you know, and feeling really down about my femininity? Am I even or a woman If I can't have a baby, I mean, you know, it's like these things that we tell ourselves and these, these, you know, reels that we play in our mind over and over and over again. So I picked up a camera as a distraction, I just decided I wanted to break the cycle. I didn't want to think about it anymore. And I'm going to teach myself photography. And that's what I'm here to do. And shortly after I started learning photography, a friend of mine asked me to help her with a boudoir shoot that she was doing. And I just don't know how to explain it. When I was there that day, I fell in love. And it was like every cell in my body was alive, I felt joy. And I came home and I said I want to be a boudoir photographer when I grew up, like that's what I want to do. And there was no stopping me. So 48 hours later, I had a business up like I changed my bedroom into a studio, I made my basement into an office. And it sounds crazy. But it's like if I knew what it entailed, I probably wouldn't have done it. But you just sometimes have to take the leap and go, you know what, I don't know what I don't know, what do I have to lose, I'm going to take the leap, but I'm going to go for it. And you know, this was back in the day before even social media existed. So to even get people in the door was a whole other ballgame back then. But it worked. And the reason why it worked was and what I can understand now as far as you know, because I have hindsight. The reason why it worked for me was because I was desperately looking for connection with other women that were open and authentic and honest and create a space where we can communicate about things. So when I started talking about my fertility issues, a lot of women would come to me and say, Me too, me too. Me too. And I was like, what's how you're like one of my best friends? How do I know that? You know, because we're taught to hush hush, we're taught not to talk about it, not to connect about it. So what's weird is that I think that the universe really brought me photography to prepare me for the rest of my life. Because, you know, once I had a baby, and I was learning about getting my body back, and then I was learning about turning 40. And then learning about breast cancer and going through menopause and things like that I it's given me the gift of connecting with other women that are also going through this that sometimes don't have an outlet to talk about it. And that is my purpose here. I mean, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I had to have a conversation with myself to say, this isn't happening to you, this is happening for you. What can you make out of this because it can't possibly just be disease, right? When I lost the babies, back in 2008 2009, it couldn't possibly just be about that there had to be something bigger in it for me. So it's interesting how photography has has really connected me with women in that way and has shown me the resiliency and the and the beauty and the empowerment and the strength of women. And they reflected back to me too. So there are times where especially now I'll be photographing a breast cancer patient, or survivor, and I'm like, Oh my god, she's amazing. Like, I wish I had that kind of strength and resiliency. And my makeup artist will say to me, what do you what do you mean? Like, I look at you like that, like, oh, okay, so I realized, you know, we don't always see ourselves that way. So the connected energy between me and my clients, helps us both elevate who we are.
14:14
I love that. That's such a beautiful thing. visual of that, like, the spiral of like, it's, you know, even so, as a therapist, you know, my clients feel need to, you know, it isn't just this like, I'm, you know, I'm on this side, you know, either the therapist or the photographer. It's no, this is like a dance like we're in this life journey together. And I love that you bring that up, because so often, I think we we separate ourselves from especially people that were maybe hiring for something. Yeah, I love that you talk about
14:51
that. I like to call myself a photogra therapist, even though I'm not a licensed therapist, it's because what I do has a therapeutic aspect to it for sure. So I'm not A photographer by the standard sense of the word like, Yes, I take pictures. And yes, I teach other photographers how to do what I do. And yes, I use lighting and lenses and cameras and all the things. But my goal is not the image. My goal is the experience. And then the image is the souvenir. So obviously, I want to take good pictures, and I do take great pictures, but I want women to be able to look at the pictures and have a drum up an emotion. And so that's really what I'm trying to do. And you know, your original question was really, how did I know that it was my calling? Or I was connected to it? You know, I think that this is probably a struggle for people that have anxiety because it should scare you. And you know, it should light you up. And it should, you should feel joy, but you should also feel feel great fear of like, what if this doesn't work? What if it? You know, that's how you know you have something there? Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't have these emotions.
15:52
Yeah, it reminds me of that, like any set it I think a little bit that like falling in love feeling 100% you know, where you are, like scared to death. Like your heart is racing. Like you're writing the bathroom every 10 minutes, and yet you're like, Okay, can I have more of this?
16:07
Yeah. 100% I mean, look, I am going through a divorce right now. So, I mean, you want to talk about anxiety? Let's, I mean, hello. Yeah, I think I think in some ways, it's even worse than cancer. It's been. It's been a really crazy journey. And I worry, like, could I ever trust somebody again? Could I ever fall in love again? Could Am I lovable? Am I am I gonna be alone forever? Am I there's all of these things that go through your mind, you know, and this is a perfect example of being able to just say to yourself, it's okay, right? Now you have to surrender to this, it's okay, you were in a bad place, it's not going to last forever. You know, there's a lot of learning that's going to happen with these feelings. And that's, you know, my whole life has prepared me for this, going through infertility, going through cancer, raising children running a business, there's so much to be scared of, and to worry about, but sometimes you just have to surrender to what you don't know. And say, Okay, I'm willing to learn. And, you know, I always say that I'm very lucky that I have my scars, because all I need to do is look down and know that I can do hard things. So in my moments of like, real, like, I'm really stuck in it. I just say, Well, look at this, you know, look, I can do hard things. I've done harder things in this, I got this, you know, and so I think just remind yourself of the accomplishments that you have done in life to help through that.
17:27
Yeah, and just having that consistent mindset of knowing that you're gonna forget, and you're gonna get in those like dark places. And it's like, who know who am I? You know, there. I'm reading this book right now. I'll put in the show notes that it's all about, like being really just fearless in a way. But it's the the first part of it is knowing who you are, you know, knowing who you come from, and really tapping in every day to that inner strength. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about so someone comes into your studio, you know, they're about to, you know, put on some sexy lingerie? Is there a process that you walk them through? Or is there like something in the environment that you use in order to get
18:29
so sorry, that's okay.
18:31
We have dogs
18:31
on this podcast,
18:34
probably the mailman. It's so cliche he like hates the format. It's so funny.
18:38
The man or the woman has to constantly come up. Okay, so back to your studio or care. We're nervous, what?
18:51
What's happening? What are you doing to shift that fear, nervous energy? Nothing.
18:57
And I'll tell you why. I shouldn't say nothing. But let me just say this, the experience with me I think, really starts with my social media, because I'm so open and I'm so vulnerable and authentic. in that realm. People feel like they already know me. So I'm building trust. That's, that's the most important thing. I'm building trust. I'm showing you look, I've done it too. I'm in front of the camera, I'm talking about my life, I'm open. With you're going to come in, it's not gonna be secret, you're gonna know who I am. And people do they come to me and they say, I feel like I know you and how's your daughter? And How's this? You know, and I'm like, how do you know all this stuff? I forget, sometimes I put it out there. But I think building trust is the number one thing. The second thing is I tell them, if you're nervous, I'm happy that you're nervous, because that means you're stepping outside your comfort zone. And that's where growth happens in life. And that's and it means something to you if somebody came in and was just like, yeah, whatever, I'll take off my clothes. And, you know, it doesn't mean no change is gonna happen. I'm not saying that's bad. Some people are just very comfortable with their bodies and they come in and they want beautiful pictures and that's Fine, but the clients that I want to work with should be nervous. I want them to come in feeling a little bit vulnerable. And I don't offer any alcohol or any distractions because my feeling is I compare it to skydiving, right? If you want to go skydiving, why do you want to go skydiving? It's not because you want to jump out of a plane. Nobody wants to jump out of a plane. It's because you want the experience of like, Can I jump out of a plane? Can I be brave enough to go up in this plane with a parachute jump out. And then if I am, I will have this amazing experience. And then I will feel accomplished. And next time I go to do something hard. I can say I went skydiving, this isn't so hard. You know, it's the same exact thing. You wouldn't get drunk before you go skydiving to numb yourself you wouldn't pop a Xanax to numb yourself before you go skydiving, the whole point of the skydiving is to feel the nerves and to overcome them. Good wire is exactly the same. If you're feeling those nerves, it's okay. You're not going to feel them the entire session, I am going to make you feel comfortable, you are going to get used to it. You're it's like when I feel like when you pull a parachute you have that moment of peace where you're like, Oh my God, look how beautiful this is. I never would have had this if I if I wasn't brave enough to jump out of the plane. Right? By the way, I will never go skydiving, I just want to say so I'm not advocating for it. I'm just saying I fought way too hard to save my life to jump out of an airplane. But do you understand the comparison, it's really not that good. And we have a lot of moments in our lives where we have this skydiving moment, you know where it's like, I mean, I had it when I filed for divorce. This was a moment. I don't want to do this. This isn't what I wanted for my life. This isn't my goal. This is it. But I know it's the right thing to do. And at some point, I will pull the parachute. And I will look and I will say wow, you know what, what I did was brave and really hard. But it's created this this peaceful moment for me. And so that just keeps happening again. And again. And goodwater is the same way. You know, if you can look at it, like I need to get through the initial nerves, and the shock and the you know, whatever it might be, you're gonna grow from it, you're gonna change from it. And that's the whole point of it.
22:05
Yeah.
22:05
Do you have any just thinking of that thinking of the women that are coming into your studio? They're going through the skydiving experience with photography? Do they walk away? Like, do you see them coming in one way and leaving another way? Do you see them showing up differently in their lives after this experience? on like, therapy, almost, you know, this, like instant therapy? Yeah.
22:37
100% if they're open to it, it will absolutely 100% happen. And you know, some women say in their head, they can't get out of their head and they go oh, that wasn't the experience I wanted. And I'm like, Well, you didn't you didn't release yourself to it. You didn't surrender to it. You know, at most of the women, I want to say like 99.9% of women leave and go Well, that wasn't anywhere near as scary as I imagined it was going to be. And that's another life lesson there. Right? Like, we always imagine the worst, but it's never really like that. As far as do women change their lives after Yes, I've had a lot of women come back to me and say, Oh, you know, I lost 20 pounds. Now, you know, not because I saw myself and I didn't like myself. But I saw myself and I realized I was worthy of that. Or I broke up with my boyfriend or if I applied for new job or I'm moving to another city or there was one woman I remember she came in with the wrong size bra. And this is one thing ladies go get yourself measured because trust me, you're wearing the wrong size bra. And she was wearing like a 32 a and I was like what is that? She's like, Oh, I have all this fat. And I'm like, sweetie, that's not bad. That's your boob. It's just hanging out the side because your bra isn't big enough. So this her whole life. She's going around thinking she's fat, right? And I was like, no, it's boom. So she comes back for her viewing session A few weeks later, she looks amazing. I was like, well
23:50
look at you.
23:51
I mean, you know, head held high. And she said, Jen, I went and I got measured after I saw you and I was wearing a 32 a and it turns out I'm a 3060. And she's like my whole it changed the way I look. It changed the way I feel about myself. I am not I realize I'm not fat. I just have you know, breasts. And you completely changed my life. So much so that she wanted to learn how to be a boudoir photographer. She came to one of my classes because she was like, You changed my life so much that I want to do this for other women. So you know, and it's not just about the size of your body. It's just about again, knowing that you can do something hard or remembering who you are, like coming back especially like women who have had babies, and then they come in and they're like, Oh wait, I still got it in here somewhere and they're allowing themselves to be who they really are because we tend to fall into this like wife, Mom, sister, daughter, friend, you know, life where we forget who we are and that it's okay for us to feel sexy. It's okay for us to let loose and do something kind of wild and you know and own that so there's a lot that can happen but but client it's not for me to decide. It's up for clients to decide what they want to do, how they want to surrender to it and what they want out of the experience. I just, I just provide the space. You know, they, they're the ones that have to be right. Well, there's Yes, there's there is guidance. Um, but I think that if I can provide a space where they can just be shamelessly themselves, and this is why you're shamelessly feminine all the time, if they can just be shamelessly feminine, who they are, how they want to show up as a woman, there's not a lot of spaces in this world that we can do that. And that, by the way, you mentioned laundry, that could mean t shirt and combat boots that can be I don't care what they wear, you know, I say good wires, who you are, to show up as you are, who you are, and we will make magic.
25:45
So
25:46
let's say someone's listening, and they are thinking, Okay, I want to do this, what are what are people going to think? What is, you know, is my husband or my boyfriend? Like? Are they gonna support me? Like, how would you tell people to start this, this journey? Or this even this conversation? If there's any part of you, if you're listening that like, ooh, I want that experience? Then how do you take those first steps? How do you know cuz I'm not I know, you're in New York, right? So you know, if you're in another, you know, city state, and you're looking for someone because I want, you know, everyone that wants to do it to have the experience that you're talking about? And I'd imagine not every photographer, you know, can offer that. Yeah. So how, what would you say? What's your advice to them?
26:33
I'd say get on a plane and come see me. I'm only half kidding. But it is it is COVID. But I do photograph people from all over the all over the place. So I am open to that. But and people can always reach out to me if they live in a different state, and I can help them find somebody or if I know somebody, I'll refer them. But I think an important thing to know is this is not just like a Google situation. I mean, you can Google or you can go on Instagram and look for somebody whose style you like. But you also want to understand what their mission is, you know, some boudoir photographers are very sex foward. Some are, you know more about couples, some are very women empowerment summer into, you know, kinky stuff. So it's, so everybody's got a little bit of a different mission. So I would find somebody that matches up with your mission, whatever it is, there's not a right or wrong. It's just how do you want to be perceived? How do you want to show up? So just to find somebody that matches your mission and what you're looking for? I will say this, this is gonna sound like a very judgmental comment. But I think it's a little important to get it out there. In my experience, what I have seen is, first of all, I want to work with clients that want to do this for themselves. Do they give it as gifts to their husbands? Or boyfriends or girlfriends? Yes, sometimes. But the the real reason that they show up has to be that they want it for themselves. I will tell you that 100% of the time when somebody says oh, I would do it, but my husband won't let me it's a sign of a bigger issue in a relationship. And I know that sounds judgmental, and maybe it is, but I'm going to put it out there. Because typically what will happen is a relationship will break up, the woman will then come to me and say, you know, I look back at that. And I realized it was a sign of control or it was a sign of insecurity or whatever it might be. So I like to sort of put a little asterisk there that if somebody is in a situation where a husband's like no, because look, this can be completely private, okay, I don't share the photos. Unless somebody signs a model release, I don't ask my clients to sign a model release, they can have these photos and it can be completely private, never seen by anybody else. You know, it's, it's what people do is really up to them, okay? There's no reason to put it out there if they don't want to put it out there. And if somebody anybody in your life has a problem and says you you shouldn't do that, because I'm not comfortable with it. For me, that's like a kind of a sign of some it could be anybody. It could be your mother. It could be your sister, it could be your boyfriend. I don't care who it is. Question that. That's all I'm saying. Question that?
28:58
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it sounds to me, it sounds like truth. So yeah, just say that, that, uh, yeah, you know, maybe that's a good sign. Like, if you're listening, like just go say you're gonna do it and then write what people's reactions Right, exactly. Reading tools tool that we have created a year ago, right. So if someone's listening, they're women. They're struggling with anxiety based on your personal experience your experience in your work? Do you have a message of hope or just something that you want them to know? Yeah,
29:35
I want I think I really want people to know and this is what I try to tell my daughter a lot when she suffers that anxiety can be your friend. You just have to reel it in. You have to know how to use it. And when it means something and you know, make friends with it. Like I said, I think sometimes they'll say thank you. I so appreciate you're protecting me. I don't need it right now. I don't need it right now. It's all good. And you know, the brain is a muscle just Like everything else, the more that you work at it, the more that you train it, the more communication you have with it, the better you'll be.
30:09
The Thank you Please can you share where people can find you? website? Instagram?
30:15
Yeah, so the best place to find me on the web is Jen Rosenbaum calm. My last name is spelled z to so everybody knows. And Instagram I am Jen
30:24
Rosenbaum. Awesome. And that will be in the show notes as well. But I was like to ask in an interview because sometimes people don't go to the show. So thank you. Thank you so much for your time and your stories. I really, really appreciate you and I can't wait to continue following you and seeing all of your brave and adventures.
30:44
Thank you so much for having me.
30:48
Thank you so much for taking the time to invest in your well being. I hope you learned at least one new idea or technique that you might want to implement into your own life. Remember, you're not alone, there is hope and with the right information and support you can thrive. If you're dealing with panic, or looking for a step by step process that will allow you to break free from this crippling fear state. I want to invite you to check out my panic attack Survival Guide, you can grab your free copy at www dot Jennifer bronsnick.com Thanks for listening