Soren Schwab (CLT):

Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT. And today we are joined by Reverend Robert Ingram and Dr. Steven J. Nichols. Bob Ingram is the program advisor for the Reformed Classical Education minor at Reformation Bible College. He is the retired headmaster of the Geneva School in Orlando, Florida, and an honorably retired teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America. He also serves as a founding board member and chairman of the Society for Classical Learning, and was Senior Vice President of Ligonier Ministries from 1986 to 1995. Reverend Ingram is a graduate of the College of Worcester in Ohio, and has two master's degrees from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and one master's degree from Geneva College in Christian Higher Education Leadership. Dr. Steve Nichols is the President of Reformation Bible College, Chief Academic Officer for Ligonier Ministries, and a Ligonier Ministry Teaching Fellow. Dr. Nichols has master's degrees in theology and philosophy, and he received his PhD from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. He is the author of several books, including volumes in the guided tour series on Jonathan Edwards and Martin Luther. He is author of A Time for Confidence and RC Sproul, A Life, and also the host of the podcast, Five Minute in Church History and Open Book. Gentlemen, I'm so delighted to have you. Thanks for joining today.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Thanks for having us. Our pleasure. Thanks.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

I am so thrilled I'm here with two legends and I just learned Bob that this is your first ever podcast recording. And so I feel truly honored to have you on as your very first.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Well, thank you. I trust it goes well. It'll

Soren Schwab (CLT):

I-

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

be it'll be the first of many. I have no doubt.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Right, after that, people are just gonna line up to get you on the podcast. Well, Bob, let's start with you. We always start the Anchored Podcast talking about our guests, our guests own educational journey. And you have been involved in the Classical Christian Education Movement for a few decades now, if I may say so. In fact, you helped found one of the oldest and most prestigious classical Christian schools in the country, the Geneva School. Talk to us a little bit about kind of the early days of the movement, how you got involved in classical education.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Sure. Well, at the time I was working at Ligonier Ministries and we were asking the question, how do people best learn? And we wanted to grow the teaching prospects of Ligonier. There was no doubt that R.C. was a phenomenal teacher, but Ligonier, because of its distance education, didn't have as direct a feedback with the people that we were encountering. People were listening on the radio, they were watching videos, they were listening to audio tapes, they were reading table talk and books. And so we began to ask the question, how are people learning? Is this really an educational institution to the extent that we thought it was? Well, at the same time, Doug Wilson had just released his book on classical education. And so a number of us were reading that. We thought maybe there would be some insight in that book as to how people learn. And so it was a live question at Ligonier, and a few of us who were working on this project needed more time with RC, and it was Memorial Day weekend coming up in 1993. And I said, Doc, how about if we just grill some hamburgers and meat? And we'll just talk about it because we never seem to find time in the office. So we did that. And as the evening wore on, we talked a lot about Ligonier, but, uh, RC began to expound more and more on Christian classical education and his experience when he was in Europe doing his doctoral work. And so he was very hardly in favor of us looking more into that. And he was also aware of Doug's recently published book. Well, by 10 o'clock that evening, the conversation had morphed from, how could this benefit Ligonier to, you know what, folks, we should just start a school that is a Christian classical school. And by 10 o'clock that evening, being good Presbyterians, we prayed about it and felt the confirmation of God leading us to do it. We named ourselves the board. There were four couples that night, RC and Vesta, my wife and I, and two others. And we said, okay, tomorrow morning, we go to work on this and we open the Geneva School, named in honor of Calvin, of course. We'll open the school Labor Day just about 90 days later. Now, I would never counsel anyone to do that again. I mean, it was preposterous. purportedly we were people of wisdom, you know. People trusted us in theology and in education, but it was clearly not the wisest idea. But God honored it. And so 90 days later we opened K through sixth grade with 34 students. This past week, we celebrated our 30th anniversary over Memorial Day. And next year there will be about 730 students at Geneva. And Lord has just blessed us with a magnificent 45 acre campus, entirely new facilities, multiple, multiple buildings, an athletic complex, and I had the privilege of being chairman of the board for basically the first 10 years, and then headmaster for the next 17, and I retired three years ago. But I'm back on the board now, so I'm able to still be involved.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Yeah, and I had the chance to visit it a couple of times now and it is, you're absolutely right. It is a truly special place and we'll talk a little bit later on about some of the trends that you have seen over your time in Classical Christian Ed. But Steve, let's get to you and we don't have time to talk about your entire educational career, but we've had some college presidents on Anchor, probably six or seven. And I think the one thing that they all had in common was that neither of them planned to become a college president

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Thank

Soren Schwab (CLT):

ever.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

you.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

And it just so happened. Was that something that you worked towards or is there a similar pattern here, how you became president of Reformation Bible College?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Yeah, I would definitely be a member of that club. You know, I was a church historian and I loved the classroom and I loved what I was doing. I was writing, I was speaking, and I really enjoyed my students. I was at a college that was sort of broadly evangelical and they didn't have a whole lot of church history in their background, wasn't necessarily in their blood. And I loved the challenge of introducing students to church history. opening their eyes to the horizons and the vistas. I was perfectly content to do that for the rest of my life. I thought I was just gonna retire there. But I got to know Ligonier and heard about the college from the day it opened. And as I got to know some of the Ligonier leadership and the opportunity was presenting itself to come here, I just thought this is wet cement to be able to be a part of this. And... just loved the vision for it. And I mean, I looked at it and I thought this is the college I would have wanted to go to. If I can be a part of this even in some small way, you know, let's roll up our sleeves and let's get at it. And then on top of that, you know, turned out to have the opportunity to be with Dr. Sproul and what were the twilight years of his life. And that was just, you know, something I'll forever be grateful for. But No, I would have loved to stay on the faculty side of the hallway and not the administration side, the dark side of the academic institution. But you know, God has plans for us.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Do you still get to teach a class at least?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

That's the one thing I really miss. I wish I could teach more, teach one class a semester and I love it. I just love being in the classroom and I love college students.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit more about Reformation Bible College, maybe for our listeners who are not too familiar with the college. When was it founded and what are some of its distinctives?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Yeah, we were founded in 2011 and we were founded by, as Bob's talking about, the founder, one of the key founders and folks involved in Geneva School was R.C. and he of course founded Ligonier back in 1971. And at the time Ligonier was a place, it was the Ligonier Valley Study Center right outside of Pittsburgh. Bob would take a vanload of carloads of high school kids. College. College from Pittsburgh. 45 minutes or so out to the hour and a half, out to the Ligadir Valley. And you can tell we scripted this story.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Right, right? Perfect.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

But you had to go there. And it was life on life learning. It was a place of discipleship. And then as Bob's talking about in the 80s and 90s, it grew into this really international ministry. But R.C. recognized that value of life on life discipleship and. Really, it was an extension of what happened with Geneva. So carrying that classical model into college, and it was same thing, it was 2009, Calvin's big anniversary, 500th year, he's in Geneva. He said, or he would say, I don't even have to close my eyes. I can see the academy, the old academy of Geneva that Calvin founded. And so, you know, Luther was a college professor. Calvin founded a college. He saw the reformers as involved in theological undergraduate higher education. So he came back and tasked the staff, not quite in 90 days, maybe 100 days, to start a college, and so Reformation Bible College. We have a core of the curriculum that's Bible and theology, so we're a Bible college, but we have this vein. of the great works. So eight semesters of great works. And then we do philosophy, we do Latin, we do ancient history, Greco-Roman history. It's a classic. It's a true liberal arts humanities, classical education alongside Bible and theology. And we're here in central Florida. That's Reformation Bible.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Wow, wonderful, wonderful. Well, Bob, going back to you, from your perspective, I mean, you mentioned kind of the early days of the movement and Doug Wilson and R.C. Sproul and to where it is now, I think the Association for Classical Christian Schools now has over 500 members, What are some of the changes you have seen the last decade or so that you think have allowed this classical renewal movement to thrive so much? And maybe if you can add on to that too, what do you think are some of the challenges in scaling the movement moving forward?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Sure, that's a great question. I think there might even be upwards of about 700 Christian classical schools across the country. Those are the latest numbers from Eric Cook, who is the executive director of the Society for Classical Learning, which is the other umbrella group to the ACCS of the entire movement. And so in the last 30 years, it basically handful to 700. And obviously then that creates this vacuum of leadership. How do you lead 700 schools? And we know how difficult it is to begin any institution, whether it's a small private business or a school or a church, it takes leadership. And I'm fond of saying the answer is leadership. Now, what's your question? And that's apparently very true across the country in all realms, but it has been in the whole movement. So the changes that we've seen are that people have been absolutely clamoring for a different educational experience for their children. And that has been a growing phenomenon over the last 20 or 30 years with the rise of homeschools. proliferation of other private Christian schools and other educational alternatives, the public school system has proven not to be trustworthy to parents. And so as they look for other alternatives, Christian classical education has captured their imagination. And many of our schools are small, many of them are only 10 years old or younger, but they are growing and they're beginning to thrive. And as you said at the outset, more and more are coming online every year. I'm working with three schools right now that will open in August. And there's others that plan for the year after that I'm aware of. And I certainly only know tip of the iceberg. So what has happened is people have seen the outcomes be so categorically different for their children who have been involved in Christian classical schools. It's not just that they might score better on a test or something like that. They think differently. There are different educational goals in mind. We want the transcendent to be in the classroom as part of our thinking. We want to be people who are meaning makers. Life is losing meaning for so many people and we want their education to have a tell us to it. We want them to know the end for which they were created. We want them to know the meaning and significance of their life. We want them to be, we want their moral imagination stimulated so that they can better understand the days in which they live, how one ought to live in light of the difference between the way life seems to be for most and how as a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, we ought to live our lives. And so there are so many aspects just to the pedagogy alone that allows children to think differently, not just think more or think a little bit more deeply, but differently, categorically differently. And we need people who can think. outside the boxes that have been containing us for far too long. And I think Christian classical education does that. One testimony to it is, as you are aware, the phenomenal arise of charter classical schools. In their attempt to mimic the outcomes, they have Athens, so to speak, but not Jerusalem. but they are producing exceptional thinkers and scholars as well. And so if imitation is the greatest form of flattery, we're beginning to see that other institutional endeavors are taking what they can from the Christian classical world and appropriating it for their particular purpose or style. And so even in... major newspapers, articles are now beginning to appear more regularly about the effect of Christian classical education across the country. And so that's happening because parents know a change has to come about. The most pressing need is for leadership. And so what we're trying to do at Society for Classical Learning is train up as many leaders as quickly as we can. Because We want to catch this wave and we want to be on the forefront of it. And so all of us involved across the whole movement understand that, uh, the, the need is for God to raise up leaders. Um, and, and so that that's the biggest issue. The biggest issue is not so much money or financing or people who would like to send their children to our schools. But can we find the leadership to take these nascent schools that would love to start and grow and provide sufficient leadership to get them through that first five-year crisis of, you know, it's an existential crisis for at least five years. And so that's one of the key things that we're working on. But we're seeing very good results.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Well, and thank you for sharing that, Bob. That was beautifully put and certainly mirrors some of the things that we're seeing at CLT. And I can say even though the test is not the ultimate goal, they also test pretty darn well on the CLT, those students, because

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Thank

Soren Schwab (CLT):

they're

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

you.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

so well formed. Let me pick your brain a little bit because I think... There doesn't seem to be a problem as if, let me put it this way, the problem is not necessarily that we don't have enough kids in Christian schools. I mean, the problem is that too many of them go to the Florida States and the Pittsburgh's in this world, right? And not enough

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

continue from K-12 into Christian higher ed, which I know at CLT, we are really passionate about at least sharing with these students that... There are these wonderful programs that they can go to. And then oftentimes what happens, of course, Bob, is they come back. They want to continue that beautiful education, they come back. So Steve, on your end, the classical renewal movement is still fairly young. It's pretty bottom heavy. So the large numbers have not fully graduated yet. But have you seen something? I mean, you've been at Reformation Bible College since 2013?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

2014,

Soren Schwab (CLT):

2014.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Have you seen have you seen trends there? I mean, is it is it easier for you to recruit from some of these classical schools than it is maybe from other schools?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

So we started, we were 25 students when we opened our doors, we're headcount just over 200, and our desire actually is to stay small. We've intentionally built a small campus because we want a small faculty. So we're just about at our maximum. But yeah, I mean, to give you an example of this, in 2018, 2019, our incoming class was 38 degree seeking students. 2020 it was 78 incoming degree seeking students. So in the last two or three years we've seen a significant uptick in enrollment. And I think it's because exactly what you're talking about, I mean, there's American higher education is a dumpster fire and you just, we're not going to appeal to everybody. But there are some who just say, you know, and I was thinking about what you were talking about. There's there's the critical thinking skills There's the soft skills of just relational skills That I think comes through the classical school movement But the Athens in Jerusalem piece, there's also the moral Context and I mean we are just in a moment where we are presented with morally vacuous people in a theoretically morally vacuous context. And we know that's not true. This is not a morally vacuous world. I was just reading, you know, my proverb of the day in chapter six, somewhere it says in proverb six, can a man take fire into his bosom and not be burned? And our culture says, sure. Like you can play with fire all day long and we'll watch you do it and be entertained. But this is not a morally vacuous culture, which is to say theology, when we're talking about morality. And I think that has an appeal. And especially Christian colleges that take their Christian commitments and convictions seriously, this is a moment where they are emerging as a true alternative. And yes, we care about getting a job and launching and paying bills and being a good steward of resources. So we don't want to just say this is an education for education sake. We want this to prepare you to get a job. But there is also that idea of formation that doesn't stop at K to 12. And, you know, in fact, you know, this research, it's between five and nine, five and seven and eight in college. are most formed. And so a lot of our Christian kids are handed over to places that are just not good for their thinking skills, relational skills, moral formation, and theological formation.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

I think you're hitting on some good points. Times have changed too and I'm not old, I think, but even from when I went to college, and sometimes I talk to parents or even school leaders and I share with them some of the concerns of investing so much in K-12 and then sending them on to Caesar and being surprised when they come back as Romans in those formative years. These students are just these students are different that go through some of these Christian colleges. And it's interesting because I like you mentioned Steve, right? The purpose of Reformation Bible College is not... instilling, I don't know, 21st century skills or making them highly employable. And, but in a way, because you're not focusing on that, you're focusing on their formation. You those students end up being employable

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Yes. Yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

and more employable and they're better employees. And it's an interesting paradox, right?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Right. I agree. I think it's those soft skills and who knows where all this AI is going to go, but I think we're going to need more critical thinking folks in that world because those sort of mid-level, you know, they're talking about what the assembly line did to blue collar, AI is going to do to white collar, and it's going to wipe out entire mid-levels of jobs, of, you know, key punchers, but to have critical thinkers. and to have people who are relational and even leadership skills, as Bob was talking about. Those are going to be skills that set someone apart in a marketplace. Or another thing, if I could just add it, one of the initiatives that I'm also on right now is what I'm calling the Resilient Faith Initiative. It correspond to my personal initials. That's how I remember it. But several years ago, and you maybe saw this, Barna released a book on faith for exiles, and the results of the Barna study over a number of years has revealed that there is single-digit faithfulness of students once they're in their 20s and 30s, and that this precipitous drop in faithfulness, being a is becoming increasingly critical. John Stone Street refers to it frequently on his podcast. And so my last couple of years at Geneva, I was after our faculty and staff trying to cultivate, in a strenuous way, resilient faith. Because these students, in fact, are going off to the universities and good universities. prestigious ones, where there's maybe more woke faculty than at some smaller, more conservative colleges. And that's one of my chief concerns right now, is that students are not exercising their faith once they hit college, and that the numbers plummet. And what we need is resilient faith initiative. is providing that for its students. And there is a toughness, so to speak, of mind. And there's a magnanimity of soul, but there is a toughness of mind and vigor of spirit here that is going to prove to overcome that preponderance of people walking away from their faith. And so we need many, many more institutions like this that are committed to a resilient faith in this critical time period of a student's life.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Wonderful. Well, I'm excited to talk about this exciting new program at RBC. And a lot of our listeners are in school leadership and they feel that leadership void, that teacher void. And so you are starting a minor in Reformed Classical Education. What prompted the addition? I think we touched on a few of the reasons already. What prompted the addition of this minor and what are some of the program's key features? And either of you can speak to that.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

I was just waiting for Bob to retire from Geneva so we could hire him. So we have a classical curriculum. Oh, absolutely. Bob's looking at this curriculum, it's great works, it's Latin, it's ancient history, Greco-Roman history, two history philosophies, apologetics, let alone systematics and biblical studies. And then we have electives and we just did this as a test balloon, introduction to classical education. Right. And we ran it within like 40 minutes of being opened. It was closed because we wanted a small group for Bob. And I mean, it just, it really took off. So we knew we were onto something here. So now we've cobbled together the curriculum and you're working on internships and practicums, but really just having Bob was a godsend because of his expertise and experience at Geneva and also being so involved. in SLC with just knowing headmasters in schools across the country. So from our perspective, the key, the secret sauce was Bob Ingram. But I'll let him share his perspective. Well, yes, those are kind of remarks and I appreciate them. But what has to be said before that is the quality of RBC students. What Steve didn't tell you was. When we talked about my teaching this class, I said, you know, I really prefer to do it as an intensive, like over five or six days consecutively, because I'm kind of living in two realms right now, South Carolina and Orlando back and forth. And I said, would you be open to doing an intensive? And Steve and others said, sure, we can do that. And then they said, well, how many students would it take for you to teach? And I said, well, one would be awkward, you know, but if only two show up, I would teach that. And then they said, well, here's the real problem. The only week that we can give you is spring break. And these may be really sweet, delightful Christian students, but they're still college students. And we're still 30 minutes away from the Atlantic Ocean, the beach, for a spring break. And I thought, well, let's just see, you know, who shows up. 17 signed up within 40 minutes. We had a phenomenal experience in that first week. And I was dumbstruck. at the thinking and particularly the writing ability of the students here. There were so many papers that were turned in and they had three long, you know, 10 to 12 page papers to write for me in a two month period of time. But there were so many papers that were so good, I asked for the digital document of them so that I could use them in my consulting around the country. some of them were so good that I threatened to take their name off and put my name on the paper because I would have been glad to have had my name on it. But you have a moral context. Yes. So you didn't do that. So anyhow, that's a kudos to the type of student that is now here. And that has happened several more times. This past spring we did the same thing. Seventeen more signed up for course, I'll be teaching two courses, an intro and then a more advanced. Both of them will be over a fall break or a spring break. And the students literally would not leave at the end of the day. Some days we were still here at 630 in the evening. And then what's designed with that is an internship where students will have the opportunity to mentor under a faculty. a member at the Geneva School just 25 minutes down the road. And so they'll have not only a curriculum that is as Christian and classical as any curriculum that's being offered in the United States. They will have the consistently Protestant and Reformed atmosphere of the Reformation Bible College to help bolster and mature their faith. They'll have a minor in Christian Classical Education and an internship, so that by the time they graduate, they will have four of the most needful things that a headmaster is looking for when hiring a new young teacher. And some of these folks have now already graduated, and they will begin teaching this fall. And we're delighted at the prospect. And I can't wait for as many more as Steve and the college can point in this direction.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

And I assume given the quality of those students combined with the demand of teachers, I assume they have pretty much at this point a 100% job placement guarantee. That's not all right.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

I think we can pretty much guarantee that, yes. Yeah, I mean, that's what we want to do. We want to help them launch. And this just seemed like we can do this. And also, as you're talking about, do you need leadership? All these schools need teachers too. And the interesting thing is very few of the teachers are at colleges that are classical. So they have to sort of almost unlearn their educational experience as a college student or graduate student. to teach in a classical school. So we're very grateful that Bob's here. And just, yeah, we too are just, can't wait to see what God does through our students and the lives that are impacted through this.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

That's a really good point. I wonder if that has changed to the last 10, 20 years where now as someone who used to hire teachers, I mean, if you have a teaching certificate from a major R1 university, it's more of a liability to me as a classical school administrator to hire these than from a Hillsdale or Grove City or a Reformation Bible college. Because we know they have the right kind of formation to come to our school and not undermine our principles and our vision.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Wait. Ahem.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

So, and I guess the piece that I think, and maybe you can speak a little bit more to that, the practical, because we've probably all seen students that gone through their four years and they thought they wanna be teachers and then you hire them because they talk, a great talk about wanting to be teachers and then they come and they realize after a few weeks, this is not for me. And so do they get mentorship? Do they also get opportunities to teach while in the program.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Yes, they'll have not only opportunities to teach, but also learn how to grade papers and discern how you assess the work of a student. They will be involved in faculty meetings. They'll be involved in professional development days. They will sit in debriefing opportunities with faculty members after they teach. a small variety of teachers with various strengths or skills in different areas. And so they'll have a very considerable, wide-ranging opportunity to experience the full panoply of what it might be to be a teacher. I expect that they will also sit in on perhaps parent-teacher conferences to learn how you speak to mom and dad and what needs, you know, to take place in that dynamic. So as much as is possible, the hope is that they will see how the sausage is being made, and see, you know, cover the waterfront of experiences so that before they graduate, they will have the opportunity to think, and maybe rethink if necessary. But hopefully, think and feel God's delight and confirmation that this is his calling for them.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Fantastic. Sounds amazing. Steve, if someone is listening and wants to learn more, either about the program or about Reformation Bible College, what's the best way to get in touch and learn more?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

So I apologize for this very lengthy website address. Ready?

Soren Schwab (CLT):

We'll put them in the show notes so they can copy and paste them.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Reformationbiblecollege.org. So it's a test of your spelling and typing skills. Reformationbiblecollege.org is great. Also, we love to talk to people. So if we want to call our admissions team, it is 888 RBC. 1517. Of course, yes.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Wow

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

That number was not randomly chosen. It was sovereignly, yes, so of course, Reformation year. So yeah, 888 RBC 1517 or reformationbiblecollege.org. Everything's on the website, information of the minors on the website. And then for people just broadly interested Ligonier was mentioned a lot. If you're not familiar with Ligonier, or Ligonier as the French might say. It's

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Very good.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Ligonier.org if you're interested in Ligonier.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Perfect. Wonderful. Well, I think Steve, we can agree Bob did all right on his first podcast.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

He did. I was just like, wow,

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Yeah.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

he's a

Soren Schwab (CLT):

You'll

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

pro.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

invite him back. Well, we have one more question. We got to keep it brief, which I know was great.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Okay.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Two great thinkers like yourselves, that's going to be hard. And it's the toughest question, because we always end the Anchored Podcast by talking about books or texts. And so for each of you, what has been one book or one text that has been most influential in your life. Who wants to start?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Well, I'll start off. The text that is most influential was the very first book that I read at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary under Dr. John Gerstner, and it was, excuse me, Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will. And it was a small class of probably 10 or 12 students, and those who knew Dr. Gerstner probably the finest. dialectical teacher, Socratic style teaching ever. And for three hours at a time, we had to rehearse every jot and tittle of Jonathan Edwards' massive philosophical work, The Freedom of the Will. It was a tough, tough class, but everything that I experienced in there from the learning, but also the style of education, and the work of God's Spirit in my life was a confirmation of the truths contained in that book, which obviously were all derivative from Scripture. And so that rather cemented, you know, my young views and understandings of theological perspective, you know, on life.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

Steve, what about you?

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

So I had to take a deep breath when he said Jonathan Edwards, because I immediately went to an Edwards book. But you said, Freedom of the Will. I'm going to go History of Work of Redemption. And I mean, for me, that book gave me the gift of the covenant as a way to understand the Bible and as a way to understand history and as a way to understand macro history, micro history. sermons. It's a book of sermons published posthumously, but I'm going to go with Edward's history of work and redemption.

Soren Schwab (CLT):

No, that's great. I don't think we've had either of those as recommendations. So two new ones. We get a lot of Lewis and Plato. So this was the first. Very exciting. Again, we're here with Reverend Bob Ingram and Dr. Stephen J. Nichols from Reformation Bible College. Check out their website at ReformationBibleCollege.org. minor in Reformed Classical Education. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on today.

Dr. Stephen Nichols and Rev. Robert Ingram:

Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks.