Cultivating Discipleship in the Classroom | Andrew Smalley

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Andrew Smalley, head of Veritas Classical School in St. Augustine, FL and board member of the advisory council for the Institute for Classical Education at Flagler College. They explore the power of making discipleship the primary goal of Christian education and the deep impact that it leaves on students. They discuss Veritas Classical School and the process of building up a school that aims to finish the trivium. 

Transcript

Soren Schwab - CLT (00:00.76)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we're joined by Andrew Smalley. Dr. Smalley joined the Veritas Classical School in St. Augustine with an extensive background in K-12 Classical Christian Education. In addition to direct classroom work, Andrew has 15 years of administrative experience, including serving as Dean of Students at a school in Pennsylvania and Director of Fine Arts in Texas.

He is originally from England and completed his postgraduate certificate in education at Birmingham City University and his master's of arts degree at Villanova. He completed his doctorate in educational leadership, having also completed his educational specialist degree in the same discipline. Andrew is passionate about leadership development for students, faculty and administration in the Christian school environment and is a national speaker in this area. In recent years, he has been invited to speak at

the national conferences for the ACCS, CESA, and SCL, as well as the deeper learning conference. He has served on the advisory council for the Institute of Classical Education at Flagler College. And he is also a board member of CLT's very own academic advisor board. And we're so delighted to have him. Andrew and his wife, Robin, have been married since 2002 and have three children who attend Veritas.

Not so little known fact, if you know Andrew, he's also an avid runner, a competitive triathlete and actually didn't know that an avid sailor in his spare time. So we can't wait to have you in Annapolis here in a few weeks. Andrew, welcome.

Andrew (01:37.757)
Good to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Soren Schwab - CLT (01:40.034)
Yeah, it's always good to talk to a fellow European. And I'm sure we're you know, we're not gonna talk too much about Leicester. They had their time a few years ago and have been forgotten. I'm kidding. Partially true. No lies detected. But we always start the Angered podcast by talking about our guests' own educational background. And really interested, Andrew, to hear kind of about your...

Andrew (01:43.236)
Thank

Andrew (01:51.443)
Partially true, yes, partially true.

Soren Schwab - CLT (02:04.76)
K12 experience probably wasn't called the K12 experience, but tell us a little bit about your education.

Andrew (02:07.985)
Right? was not. Yeah. So, really grew up in central England. was the third child had two older sisters, which is an important part of my educational journey. Cause they were superstar academics, you know, just straight A's and then comes through this, you know, the boy at the end of the end of the road who,

was not a straight A student by any stretch of the imagination. And so I would say my educational experience was kind of tainted a little bit by that. was at 16 having finished my GCSE exams, which is very much a formula to get this exam done and study for it and then move on.

And I was the happiest child to leave school at 16. And so that became obviously a big part of my story, as you just heard. I did some more education. The Lord, you know, pulled me back in. And I think even today, you know, I'm driving to school and, you know, God's just smiling at me going, look, Andrew, you're still at school. You wanted to go so badly and yet there you are. You're still going to school and you're a little bit older now. So.

Soren Schwab - CLT (03:13.688)
Yeah, just a tad.

Soren Schwab - CLT (03:28.77)
He has a sense of humor.

Andrew (03:31.187)
I see it as God's sense of humor that really kind of kept pulling me back in. And I think some of that was just maturity of, you know, understanding. And certainly the gospel being true in my life made me a little bit more curious and wanting to think deeper on many things. So, yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (03:51.65)
Did you, were you raised in a Christian home in England? Okay.

Andrew (03:54.833)
Yes, yes I was. would say, know, Christianity in the UK and maybe, you know, stereotypically across Europe is a lot less evangelical, I would say. And so it was much more of a church experience of just tradition. That's what we do on a Sunday. We go and we, you know, then get back to the rest of our lives and really.

I didn't see the gospel really being played out in the lives of really the people around me in the way that I've seen it in more recent years.

Soren Schwab - CLT (04:33.312)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that seems to, you I grew up as Protestant in Germany and it's definitely much more high church. mean, the churches are empty, but much more high church in Oregon and all that. And so I remember the first time going to a church in America, an evangelical church and seeing a drummer behind a plexiglass. And that was quite a formative moment for me. Like, whoa, that is different. Very much so, very much so.

Andrew (04:58.225)
Yeah, that's a, that's a different experience right there. Yeah, absolutely.

Soren Schwab - CLT (05:04.556)
So talk to us, you go to Birmingham City University, was that kind of your...

Andrew (05:11.591)
Yeah, so I mean, just to kind of finish out that section in terms of my education. I went and I was, I did really a vocational course really between 16 and 18 within performing arts, because I was doing a lot of that and just saw that as the fun avenue to just kind of keep going with a little study. And really it was after that where I first came to the States and this was, this is where

my sister's part of this plays in, because they had traveled around Europe at the age of 18, finishing kind of the high school road. And I said, well, I'm just going to do something bigger and better. I'm just going to one up them and go to America. So I worked at a summer camp in the Poconos. And at that time, really thousands of miles from home was really my realization that I didn't want to run my own life. didn't really desire.

to pretend that I had it all together, because I didn't. And that was a fairly radical shift and realization that I really needed to commit to following Jesus and knew that in that situation, as I had 10 eight-year-old campers coming from inner city Philadelphia, a place that I couldn't even imagine, I'm coming from a small village in England that

I could only be helpful for them if I truly was looking at it through the lens of Christianity and the gospel. so my life was pretty radically changed, transformed in that timeframe. so, you know, the camp became a very special place for me. And I ended up kind of coming back for a few summers as I realized, you know, as I got into college and I was every, every spring I'd be like, okay, what am going to do this summer? And I was like,

the best ministry opportunity I possibly have is going back to that camp. And so I would come back again. So part of my reason to even be in the States comes from that. And really the story goes that it was really, came to work full time, 50 % for the girl and 50 % for the Christian education. So I had met my now wife,

Soren Schwab - CLT (07:09.165)
Yeah.

Andrew (07:34.035)
And we dated across the ocean for two years, which I do not recommend for anybody, even in a world of technology now. But we finally found ourselves on the same soil in Philadelphia and ended up working at her alma mater in Philadelphia. And was just so happy to get to Christian education is what I would say.

Soren Schwab - CLT (07:42.638)
Hmm.

Soren Schwab - CLT (07:58.938)
Thank you.

Andrew (08:00.337)
I think it's still really a little known fact. You know, you're be looking at old works and go, all these people are from, you know, the UK, but really there is no Christian education to speak of at that K-12 level. There's little small pockets of it. And I even today get an opportunity to try and encourage some of that even classical education that's trying to bubble up, which I'm super excited about, but really

Soren Schwab - CLT (08:14.991)
Mm-mm.

Soren Schwab - CLT (08:25.891)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (08:29.043)
at that time, was really nothing. I just wanted and really just my, my, my heart's desire was to be able to be myself in front of my students. And I felt without basically sharing, you know, this is who I am. And this is why I am the way that I am. Without being able to do that. And I had a very great mentor at the university in Birmingham.

Soren Schwab - CLT (08:40.175)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (08:56.221)
who basically said, you just do the best you can in public education. And I walked out of that meeting and just said, I really, I believe that answer, but I want something better for myself professionally and personally. And so Christian education was exactly what I had desired and what I was able to do as a young teacher.

Soren Schwab - CLT (09:19.137)
Wow. so what was kind of that journey into, I'm assuming first the classroom before you kind of went into administration?

Andrew (09:26.244)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I was teaching some theater, was teaching some Bible, I was teaching some English, which I thought was kind of fun as I arrived from England, but quickly realized that the things that I said that came across as odd were just distracting. And so I immediately was changing some of my vocabulary to help the students stay focused.

Soren Schwab - CLT (09:39.695)
I'm saying

Soren Schwab - CLT (09:53.39)
Yeah. Just start calling it soccer instead of football. that,

Andrew (09:58.279)
Things like that, exactly, exactly. Those kinds of things. I was, you know, but I really, one of the things that really pushed me into school leadership was specifically within theater, I was running productions. And so I was running a staff, right? As a 23 year old, I was running a staff that was also, you know, and then putting all these kids into roles and putting them on stage and really.

Soren Schwab - CLT (10:16.227)
Hmm.

Andrew (10:26.355)
some point in this journey, I really walked into the head of school at the time and just said, I see, you know, athletics is really doing well at our school, but I really see that fine arts is really doing really well. And I said, I really feel like there needs to be some sense of, you know, a director figure for all these teachers. That's not just in production season, but it runs a full year. And the head of school at the time,

much to my amazement, like, yep, sounds great. And so I worked myself, at that point I was Dean of Students, but I worked myself out of that job in that meeting. And suddenly I was directing a full arts department, really 612, but essentially K-12. And so that was a definite transition point for me.

Soren Schwab - CLT (11:17.807)
Wow, and kind of a slow stepping stone more into administration. You were at that point in Christian education. When did you first hear about whether it's kind of Christian liberal arts education or maybe even the term classical Christian education?

Andrew (11:26.417)
Yes.

Andrew (11:35.537)
Yeah. Yeah. So this came just a couple of years later as I'm realizing I'm, I'm, I'm feeling a shift that I needed to be, you know, kind of working towards something a little bit, with, with a greater management, I guess is what I would say. So I was really kind of just aware that, that I felt like I wasn't being challenged in the role. And I really felt like I wanted even a bigger kind of staff that I could lead.

And so it literally was a Google search for Christian finance directors that was really meant to help build my own job description, not meant to find a new job. But in my Google search, up pops a school in Austin. And really at that point, I'm learning about classical education, Christian obviously, but classical education and

just became, it was kind of a, I just was looking at my job description, I'm looking at the other job description and I'm starting to go, no, this is what I want. And my wife, Robin, basically said, when I read the job description, it literally had your name written all over it. Even though she was born and raised in Philadelphia, we had no intention of leaving. had, our kids were actually third generation in that Christian school and just felt like that's where we were gonna be.

God had other plans because we visited the school. Both of us just very quickly enamored with the product of a classical Christian education. That was what was really very apparent in just a three-day interview process that when we were speaking to the ninth through 12th grade students, we knew and it wasn't a rose-tinted classes because we had just come from a school, right? It was

Soren Schwab - CLT (13:01.753)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (13:29.605)
Okay, these students are just communicating on a different level. So it really was a, have to come and figure out how this product is produced.

Soren Schwab - CLT (13:31.439)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab - CLT (13:42.545)
And I think we can share what school it was. It was Regents School of Austin, which of course was at that point already a fairly established classical Christian school and large too. mean, think it's still the largest. So it's not like it was, well, they can do this because they have like 50 students or something. I mean, it's a pretty sizable school.

Andrew (13:48.433)
Yep, yep, yep.

Andrew (13:55.153)
Very established, yeah. Yep. Yep.

Andrew (14:04.935)
Right. No, it was, yeah. It was, yeah. So I was coming in and I was managing rather than kind of working with four or five teachers. I was really managing essentially with all of the part-time people, nearly 30 staff. So it was just a very different feel. And really I was watching and learning how is this classical education producing the quality of student that's going out into the world? That's what really

Both my wife and I realized that's what that timeframe was needed for. And, and we did, we just watched and learned a whole lot.

Soren Schwab - CLT (14:45.552)
I'm and we have a mutual friend and now colleague of mine, Dr. Tim Weins, who I think was during the time you were in Philadelphia, was he the headmaster while you were there? think the world of Tim. mean, he is such a great leader and he's kind of been in the larger Christian non-classical schools. But as he would say, he's a liberal arts guy, right?

Andrew (14:57.051)
Yep. Yep. Yes.

Andrew (15:11.25)
Yes.

Soren Schwab - CLT (15:11.6)
And so I'm curious to pick your brain because you've kind of been in kind of the larger Christian schools, non-classical, large Christian school, classical. Now you lead your own classical Christian that's growing, it's growing significantly. We'll talk about that, but it's on the smaller side. I'm kind of curious, what did you take away from your time at kind of the larger Christian schools and maybe some of the similarities that you see? Because I think sometimes we talk about, we're class Christian schools, we're different, we're doing X, and Z.

But there's so many similarities too, especially if you contrast it with what the public schools are doing. What are some of those similarities that you were seeing that impacted you?

Andrew (15:48.709)
Yeah, mean, just I mean, to use a word that maybe is overused, you I mean, discipleship is happening, right? Like, mean, at any Christian school, you want to believe that discipleship is a primary goal, right? That these kids, you know, it's not it can be tough to disciple on a Wednesday night and a Sunday morning, right? But to disciple when you're seeing these kids five days a week, beginning of the day, end of the day.

you are getting an opportunity to do deep discipleship on a second grade level, a 10th grade level, wherever they are. So yes, I have many friends that work in Christian schools and my wife is a product of Christian education and I have so much good to say because of that. Right? There's certain things that she'll say something to me. I'm like, yep.

guess you would know that, you know, and I don't like I don't have that background. And I will share that even with students like guys, I did not have this privileged position to sit under mental leaders in classrooms every day who just love and care for me, whether I got a D or an A or whether I, you know, said something I shouldn't say or said something super encouraging that, you know, changed the direction of the class. So, you know, even

Soren Schwab - CLT (16:45.434)
Yeah.

Andrew (17:11.979)
Just that sense of leadership, consistent leaders in these schools is so important, right? From the top, but also down. you have some people who just give 40 years of classroom, you know, to an eighth grade class, like they've been teaching. You just kind of go, the depth of impact is so, so deep. You know, you see those graduates coming back, walking into the school, I'm looking for so-and-so, and you're like,

Yes, of course you are, right? Everybody comes looking for them. So I have so, just to know the impact that Christian education has had on my family and know that within Christian environment, we're obviously calling students, and this again is an overused word in my mind, but we're calling them to excellence, right? So we're not just saying, okay, that's good enough, great, just hand it in. We should in any type of Christian education be saying,

Soren Schwab - CLT (17:43.012)
Yeah.

Andrew (18:11.267)
I sorry, and I think you could do better work. I'm his this is I'm giving this back to you, because I would like you to do it over. And that you would learn. Yeah, they're absolutely right. Like I you know, and so it's unto the Lord, right? That everything that we're doing, building that muscle within them to say, I need to give my best work every time, you know, even if I don't want to do it, right? And giving the brain building that

I mean, really building the muscle of being a resilient person through hardship is something that we don't necessarily even in Christian school want to talk about. All our teachers are great and they're wonderful. No, sometimes that teacher's personality does not mesh with your child's personality. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to say, oh, let's rescue my child out of that class and have them transfer to another class? No, actually, you're going to...

Soren Schwab - CLT (18:45.412)
Uh-huh.

Soren Schwab - CLT (18:50.768)
Yeah.

Andrew (19:05.519)
sit with that and you're going to try and work through that for the sake of your child because we all know sometimes down the road they get a boss they don't like and are you quitting the job or probably staying in it right so building that resiliency to the challenges of life is is so important that we're preparing them for a life of service to to to mankind

Soren Schwab - CLT (19:16.005)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (19:29.265)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's beautifully said. I think, you know, as as an employer as well, you know, getting to work with some students that have received this kind of education, it is so blatantly obvious that that and and for lack of a better term, usually say they're just different. They're different, you know. And I think the the one thing that is such an undervalued trait in

whether it's a student or later on employee is that curiosity. They just, want to know, they seek truth, right? It's been instilled in them. They want to know, and they're just not content with, I don't And that's just something that is really hard to try. Hey, be more curious. From one day to the other, that's something over years, right? That there is truth out there, that it's knowable, that we should seek it and pursue it. But that's exactly what Christian schools do.

Andrew (20:01.745)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (20:09.522)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (20:15.239)
Right. Right.

Andrew (20:25.671)
Right. And I think I became enamored with the final project and the recognition that we're building all the way up to the senior thesis within classical Christian education and the incredible burden, but yet something that a student knows, I have to go there. I'm going to get to the senior thesis, so I've got to be ready. And then to watch these students do something so hard.

Soren Schwab - CLT (20:35.568)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (20:54.387)
right? Something that is just gut wrenching, that is a long year long project. Not many students have to do anything that's more than a week long, right? In the majority of schools. So a year long project and then to watch them with poise deliver a senior thesis. And then, you know, as the applause kind of rises, just to watch almost their shoulders go down and the pride of I just did something really hard and I am so thankful that I got to do it.

Soren Schwab - CLT (21:02.865)
Right.

Andrew (21:23.663)
Right. And, you know, it just feels like it really accelerates them into the workplace that they can say, look, I don't necessarily know about something that you're asking me to do, but I can figure it out. I've done a hard thing. I can do another hard thing.

Soren Schwab - CLT (21:39.654)
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, and obviously you are you are an athlete, as I read in the the bi. We we rationally read we know like we know and we can kind of think about that feeling after finishing. Well, I can't a triathlon. I did a half marathon the other week. That was it was a good feeling afterwards. Right. But still that daily that that that the grind right doing that, even though we know right, like you said, that muscle.

It's hard. takes so much discipline and so much encouragement. But for these students to do it and then to look back, the kind of satisfaction that they have, it's a beautiful thing. But it's hard. It is really, really, really hard.

Andrew (22:23.121)
We're guiding. mean, if you've got the right people in place, then you're guiding them through that, those hard moments. And again, they've just done something that it is such a mountain top experience for these students that quite literally one of my favorite stories from my school is past year was when we pulled our salutatorian and valedictorian and said, okay,

Soren Schwab - CLT (22:39.995)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew (22:51.539)
you're salutatorian, you're valedictorian. And then we said, one other thing, like, we need you to speak at graduation. And it was just comical because they're like, Oh, I, oh, we know how to do that. Like, we just did a senior thesis, like, oh, we know that you did a senior thesis. Like, we've, we've walked that road with you. And the fact that they just were like, well, what do you want? What do want us to talk about?

Soren Schwab - CLT (23:01.371)
Ha ha ha.

Soren Schwab - CLT (23:09.189)
Yeah.

R-

Andrew (23:19.987)
That's great. It's easy, right? Was just absolutely like mind blowing because I've seen this student the year before and just said, hey, I'm going to need you to do this. I think they would have crumbled and said, I'm going to need a lot of information. I'm not going to maybe do that. So it does create these moments. And I think in our own lives, we can see that sometimes, maybe all the time when we're pushed to do something that's kind of beyond what we think is possible.

Obviously, number one, gives us an opportunity to actually, obviously lean on the Lord and say, okay, I can't do this in my own strength, which is very, very important that we need to give them those opportunities. But secondly, it's really just, it's giving them a sense of pride of accomplishment that they can take on something that in the future that is hard, whether that's a.

Soren Schwab - CLT (23:57.105)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (24:16.975)
university education or even, you know, parenthood, right? Or whatever it is that's coming down the road for that particular student, they have been given a level of confidence by doing something that feels beyond what they can do themselves.

Soren Schwab - CLT (24:36.626)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I've had the privilege of visiting your school in beautiful St. Augustine. We live in Annapolis. I mean, there are a lot of similarities. They're both cult. I mean, they're both historical and a lot of people refer to them as charming. And I've tried to come up with a better word, but I think it actually it's the nail in the head. is a beautiful place. Andrew, tell us a little bit about your school when you joined it.

Andrew (24:55.143)
That's a good word. Yeah. Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (25:03.59)
You're in Florida, we hear a lot about the growth of classical education in Florida. I think Verita is a perfect example of that.

Andrew (25:11.899)
Yeah, so I came to be head of school here in 2021, a school at that time of 121 students. So really a startup school. think it's right for me to recognize, even though my children may not hear this, it was going from a very large classical school to a startup. But God had called me very definitively to be a head of school.

Oddly enough, we just mentioned CESA earlier in this call regarding large schools and I have a lot of respect for the organization CESA. It was actually at a CESA conference that God called me to be a head of school and I was just 14 months into my time in Austin. And so again, I really sat and learned and listened and just watched and waited. And I'd say patiently waited, which sounds, you know, I'm not.

being facetious when I say that I really wasn't ready to take on the headship. I was like, Lord, if you want me to do this, I will do it. But I don't feel compelled to just go find the job until you really show it to me. And so this particular job popped up and my wife says, well, it sounds like we're going to Florida. said, well, what do you mean? She's like, well, we have to go to Florida and figure out if this is what the Lord is calling us to next. I was like, okay, I'll

I'm game for that. So we came and we learned and we watched. And specifically where this particular school is, and I guess this may be a word to somebody who's listening, but I really felt this board had really formed to finish the trivia, right? So the Grammologic rhetoric, they had formed to say, want to see our children complete a three-part thing.

not do two parts and then go somewhere else. And I said, okay, that's really interesting because I went to Austin to learn how that third part really came about. And I said, I think I can come and help. And so really we were moving on that school year that I came in 2021, there just, there was one ninth grader. So it's coming just again, comparisons, like 340.

Andrew (27:36.997)
rhetoric students in one school to one, or at that time, by the time I got there, four students in our rhetoric school. And really what we've been doing over the last five years is really helping get students to the goal of graduation and then out into the world. And so right now Veritas has four alumni.

That'll be seven alumni by May of 2026. And then that following year we'll have a class of 12 and then followed that by 17. So we have by the grace of God been able to build our rhetoric program. And it's something that I've got to talk on and I hope to do it more in terms of how to do that. I mean, there's obviously barriers, there's challenges to build a small school. You've got to find some families who say,

We're in it, whatever happens. Andrew, we're just staying. Like we're not going anywhere. It doesn't matter if the, you know, the local high school has a championship volleyball team and you know, my kid maybe, you know, does get to play or doesn't get to play. That doesn't matter. I'm just, I'm in this to stay. And so we had some of those families as, as you can tell, we have four graduates. And so we're just continuing to.

build a school that finishes the Trivium, which I am just so, I just feel like it's so important that we get our kids to a graduation. From a maturity standpoint, I think is probably the biggest thing.

Soren Schwab - CLT (29:08.242)
I think so. having, you know, visited thriving and a lot of them small classical Christian high schools, it's just beautiful to see. And there's so much formation still happening, right? If you pull them after eighth grade, like, I think they're mature enough to, you know, go to the local and some of them probably are right. But it's like we talked about earlier with the senior thesis and the portrait of a graduate. It's beautiful to see it completed. I I, people are leaning.

leaning on you to guide them. I think, you know, just listening to SEL and at ACCS and now Turing Point Education, just the number of schools they want to start the next few years. And all of them will be K4, K6, K8 with the intent to then add on in high school. Talk about hard things to do, right? And hard things to build and to have a model for that. And you so masterfully doing that at Veritas.

Andrew (29:58.802)
Easy.

Soren Schwab - CLT (30:04.435)
One thing I want to pick your brain on a little bit too, and I've had the privilege to visit probably the most beautiful college I've ever seen in my life. There are some competing ones. I graduated from Hillsdale, absolutely beautiful campus. The surroundings of Hillsdale, it's central Michigan. But Flagler College in St. Augustine, and really grateful for that partnership that we at CLT have with Flagler. And you mentioned Dr. Brad Rowe earlier.

Andrew (30:22.215)
Go.

Soren Schwab - CLT (30:34.131)
Just really embracing classical education and you've been part of it since the beginning. It's a new institute for classical education. Talk to us a little bit about what Flackler has been doing and kind of your role at the college.

Andrew (30:53.051)
Yeah. So I mean, like in really any small town in America right now, you're probably going to find some iteration of classical education somewhere might be in a basement. but it's, it's happening, right? So the higher education world is responding as it really should, right? It has to respond because the need for classical teachers.

Soren Schwab - CLT (31:03.731)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (31:20.659)
far outweighs who we have, right? So the response has been, I think, on many levels, really great. Flagler responded as well, right, in 2023 with a grant they were able to basically formulate the Institute for Classical Education. And really, predominantly at this point in time, Sauron, this is really for teacher education. So...

Soren Schwab - CLT (31:48.051)
Rhythm.

Andrew (31:49.059)
It's really every month, really a speaker and oftentimes a nationally known speaker is coming into St. Augustine and is doing a three, four hour workshop with teachers who are, you know, local enough to be able to get to it. And so I think it's been a really positive thing for the college. I think it's been a really positive thing for even teachers from my school to be able to go and experience and

We're excited to see kind of where it can go. I think there are more things in the pipeline from a Flagler board perspective to say, okay, could we do more undergraduate level education that could match the Institute and find a pipeline for classical education for essentially Florida right now. But they...

There are many who would love to see like a Flagler be the Hillsdale to the South or something like that, where basically there is the ability and need for education of classical teachers. I mean, that's a, it's a constant conversation that I have with heads of school, with higher education, just how can we really provide a pipeline for these schools? If there's going to be as many as are predicted, it's going to be a huge need. So.

Soren Schwab - CLT (32:47.613)
Yeah. Right.

Soren Schwab - CLT (33:07.347)
Right.

Soren Schwab - CLT (33:13.243)
Yeah, totally. You're absolutely right. you know, I get to talk to some heads here and there. And, know, where do we from where do we recruit teachers? And, you know, yeah, we have the the UDs and the Grove cities and Hillsdale's, but the numbers just don't meet the demand. Right. And so inevitably, you'll have to hire some folks that did not go through these colleges and and to be able to send them to to trainings and to kind of immerse them in the tradition is really, valuable. And

Andrew (33:28.189)
Correct.

Soren Schwab - CLT (33:42.322)
I think you mentioned the meeting the demand. mean, it's beautiful testimony where the movement has been where it is now, right? That there are now these institutions. Andrew and I were going to an event at the Hamilton Center at University of Florida in November, right? Another department, institute, school now of I think it's civics and classical education, right? Investing in and meeting the demand of classical education.

Yeah, I'm grateful that you're you're part of Flagler our friend Rob Jackson is is part of the Institute as well and And I think it's it's yeah to ask a national speaker especially between the months of maybe November and March to come down to st. Augustine is is a it's a little bit It's a little bit easier than other places

Andrew (34:29.267)
It can be tough. mean, Sauron, you didn't hear enough that probably I'm like, is this Sauron's second home? yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (34:36.167)
I'm trying, trust me, I'm working on it with Paula. Even if it's just 51 % of the year, that would be great. Maryland is a wonderful state and has wonderful taxes. That's all I'm gonna say about that. So it would be nice to be in Florida more often. I'm certainly grateful for all the love that CLT has been getting in Florida.

Andrew (34:44.21)
Okay.

Andrew (34:56.615)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab - CLT (35:05.02)
and from you, Andrew. We do have one more question, my absolute favorite one and one that sometimes our guests dread because there's no cheating. It has to be one, Andrew. What's what's one book or one text that you can point to that has had the greatest impact on your life and why?

Andrew (35:13.841)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (35:23.163)
Right, obviously, other than the Word of God, which is sharper than the two-edged sword, right? just, that is a lifeline for me. I have to say, and I have to think about this, because oftentimes we have a favorite book right now. I really have to go back to some writing that has really caused me to see beauty and has caused me to...

Soren Schwab - CLT (35:41.64)
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew (35:52.413)
just pause and really have to think and work through something has to be the works of Shakespeare. Just, I feel like it has had a, even just watching the, knowing that a small child can sit and watch a Shakespeare play spoken, right, and can understand it, which, know, when you're trying to,

work a ninth grader through, you know, Romeo and Juliet, let's say, you know, it takes some time. They've got to get into that language, but just to see the beauty of verse and prose in there, I have to say that is something that was of a huge impact on my life to recognize when you do the work, you can really see the beauty and kind of build that deep understanding and just a huge appreciation obviously for.

you know, it wasn't just it was written down, but it was written for the stage. and maybe you don't maybe people know this, but there are literally no stage directions in Shakespeare, right? It's actually written into the text, so to speak, right? Which again, just pure brilliance and just just something that, you know, we should aspire to to be able to write something like that. That's not people are not writing like that now. So so

Soren Schwab - CLT (37:14.43)
Did you have a favorite, as a director, right, to put on?

Andrew (37:19.537)
That is so odd. I mean, Much Ado About Nothing is definitely a favorite. mean, there's some, obviously there's some thematic things that kind of roll back and forth within Shakespeare. But yeah, probably I would say Much Ado About Nothing.

Soren Schwab - CLT (37:21.214)
That's even a harder question.

Soren Schwab - CLT (37:42.58)
Well, Andrew, this has been absolutely delightful. Again, we're here with Dr. Andrew Smalley, headmaster of Veritas Classical School in beautiful St. Augustine, Florida, and also a board member of CLT's academic board. Really grateful for all you've done. I can't wait to see you in a few weeks here in Annapolis. Keep up the good work and say hi to your lovely wife, Robin, and God bless you, my friend.

Andrew (38:07.821)
Yeah, thanks so much, Sauron. Appreciate it. It's been fun. Take care.