The Merits of a Deviceless School | John DeJak

On this episode of Anchored, Jeremy is joined by John DeJak, Director of Education for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. John talks about working alongside Dale Ahlquist during the founding of the first Chesterton Academy, as well as his transition to Saint Agnes, where he worked in collaboration with Michael Adkins. Together, John and Jeremy explore what Catholic schools can learn from their Protestant classical counterparts. They also discuss the hopeful future of Catholic education and the merits of a deviceless school.

Transcript

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Folks, welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. We are here in Annapolis, Maryland with John Dejac, who is essentially, it's a big title John, but the Director of Education for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which is amazing. John formerly served in the U.S. military.

Folks, welcome back to the Anchor Podcast. We are here in Annapolis, Maryland with John Dejac, who is essentially, it's a big title John, but the Director of Education for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which is amazing. John formerly served in the U.S. military.

before becoming the founding head of two Catholic schools in Minneapolis, Chesterton Academy. We've crossed paths a lot. You were also the head of school at Chelsea Academy, over at St. Agnes in Minneapolis. You've done a lot in your career, John. It's an honor to have you with us today. Thanks very much for having me, Jeremy. A great pleasure. I noticed how you said I was in the military. I am in Annapolis, but I served in the Army, that was very diplomatic of you.

before becoming the founding head of two Catholic schools in Minneapolis, Chesterton Academy. We've crossed paths a lot. You were also the head of school at Chelsea Academy, over at St. Agnes in Minneapolis. You've done a lot in your career, John. It's an honor to have you with us today. Thanks very much for having me, Jeremy. A great pleasure. I noticed how you said I was in the military. I am in Annapolis, but I served in the Army, that was very diplomatic of you.

Thanks for being out here. had an amazing lunch today just talking about the future of education, the future of Catholic education in the country. Take us back though. You grew up K through 12 in Catholic schools. What were those like? Did you like schools? Did it seem like it fostered you in your faith or had the opposite impact at the time? That's a great question. Yeah, and the product of Catholic education, K through law school actually. I should say one through law school because they didn't have a kindergarten at the time. So one through law school.

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Thanks for being out here. had an amazing lunch today just talking about the future of education, the future of Catholic education in the country. Take us back though. You grew up K through 12 in Catholic schools. What were those like? Did you like schools? Did it seem like it fostered you in your faith or had the opposite impact at the time? That's a great question. Yeah, and the product of Catholic education, K through law school, actually. Or actually, I should say one through law school because they didn't have a kindergarten at the time. So one through law school.

was very fundamental and important part of my formation and upbringing. Went to the parish school very happily. Our parish was very solid, liturgically, smells and bells, if you want to say that. That was the atmosphere that we grew up in. This is Cleveland, is that This Cleveland, Ohio, Cross School in Euclid. And what happened was, I think we all kind of...

was very fundamental and important part of my formation and upbringing. Went to the parish school very happily. Our parish was very solid, liturgically, smells and bells, if you wanna say that. That was the atmosphere that we grew up in. This is Cleveland, is that right? in Cleveland, Ohio, Holy Cross School in Euclid. And what happened was, I think we all kind of...

understood the rhythm of the year both liturgically as well as academically and was marked and punctuated by those liturgical times. I think the pastor did a nice job in terms of celebrating the parishes feast day. We always got ice cream on the feast of the exaltation of holy cross and so shouldn't we be getting ice cream around now? know that was you know that at that time of year all the holy days we had off and that just just marked these things as altar boys.

understood the rhythm of the year, both liturgically as well as academically, and was marked and punctuated by those liturgical times. I think the pastor did a nice job in terms of celebrating the Parish's feast day. We always got ice cream on the feast of the exaltation of the Holy Cross. so shouldn't we be getting ice cream around now? You know, that was, know, that at that time of year, all the Holy days we had off. And that just, that just marked these things as altar boys.

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We left school to serve funeral masses So all of this sort of thing went toward the whole Catholic school experience as a Common thing for many generations now in retrospect if I had to judge Could the Catholic could the schooling part have been a little bit more robust probably? Probably if I you know again hindsight you must have done well went on to law school and a great undergraduate program I studied Latin. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah as one of two people in the world who?

We left school to serve funeral masses So all of this sort of thing went toward the whole Catholic school experience

Common thing for many generations now in retrospect if I had to judge Could the Catholic could the schooling part have been a little bit more robust probably probably if I you know again hindsight You must have done well went on to law school and a great undergraduate program. I said in Latin Yeah, I did I did yeah as one of two people in the world who? But that too was the product of Catholic education because as we serve in mass you see this Panis vitae under the old high altar

But that too was the product of Catholic education because as we serve in mass you see this Panis Vitae under the old high altar. What is that? Strange and mysterious language. This is still the era of Indiana Jones, right? So you're discovering something ancient. There's a mystery there, an excitement, that carried through in high school and that's what brought me into classics.

and mysterious language. This is still the era of...

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Indiana Jones, right? So you're discovering something ancient. There's a mystery there and excitement and that that carried through in high school and that's what brought me into the classics Okay, and then did you know you were gonna go military all through high school? How did that happen? Yeah, no, I I think I kept the haircut but but yeah, I Always had great respect for the military both the grant grandpa's were in World War two and my uncle's in Vietnam But no 9-eleven was the flashpoint for that

Okay, and then did you know you were gonna go military all through high school? How did that happen? Yeah, no, I I think I kept a haircut, but but yeah, I always had great respect for the military both the grant grandpa's were in World War two and my uncle's in Vietnam But no 9-eleven was the flashpoint for that Wow, I was in law school at the time

I was in law school at the time.

first semester of law school when that happened and yeah, made me, much to my wife's chagrin, made me angry. Wow, so you were already, you were married in law school? Yeah, I was a later, yeah, a later soldier at age 29, you know, so yeah. Okay, well thank you for your service. No, thank you, yeah. That's fantastic. So then from the military to being the founding head, we love Chester, we love Chesterton Academy at CLT, dear friends, I think there's like 80 of them now there.

semester of law school when that happened and yeah, made me, much to my wife's chagrin, made me Wow, so you were already, you were married in law school? Yeah, I was a later soldier at age 29, you know, so yeah. Okay, well thank you for your service. No, thank you. That's fantastic. So then from the military to being the founding head, we love Chester, we love Chesterton Academy at CLT, dear friends, I think there's like 80 of them now there,

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They're starting more Emily Dorodson, Dale Alquise, I these are some of the best folks I think in this movement. I didn't know this until today though, you were the first founding head of the very first Chesterton Academy. Yes, yes.

They're starting more Emily Dorodson, Dale Alquist, I mean these are some of the best folks I think in this movement. I didn't know this until today though, you were the first founding head of the very first Chester to the Yes, yes.

Yeah, wow. We look back at those days and I was 31 and stupid and they were stupid for having me. no, we managed to get it done. And it was really those are foundational years. And as I told you at lunch, find me some students, find me some teachers. That was the charge. Yeah. And we managed to get 10 kids. We had this great curriculum, which Dale and some of his other colleagues had put together prior to our.

Yeah, wow. Look back at those days and I was 31 and stupid and they were stupid for having me. no, we managed to get it done and it was really, those are foundational years. And as I told you at lunch, find me some students, find me some teachers. That was the charge. And we managed to get 10 kids. We had this great curriculum, which Dale and some of his other colleagues had put together prior to our.

prior to my coming on board, it was something I was very comfortable with, being with the classics. I had some of legal know-how in terms of just some of the structural needs of the school as a nonprofit. And yeah, we hit the ground running. And those crazy kids were all very different. But by the end of that year, they gelled together, they spoke intelligently about things, had an appreciation of the...

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prior to my coming on board, it was something I was very comfortable with, being with the classics. I had some of legal know-how in terms of just some of the structural needs of the school as a nonprofit. And yeah, we hit the ground running. And those crazy kids were all very different. But by the end of that year, they gelled together, they spoke intelligently about things, they had an appreciation of the...

greatness of our tradition and they truly

greatness of our tradition and they truly

We're starting to cultivate the intellectual life, which was a victory right there, right? so, yeah. Love that. And we'll put in the show notes the link to the podcast we did with Dale Alquiz. But when Dale tells the story about the first chest, and this is in, is it Adina? Adina, yeah. Adina, Minnesota. was technically in St. Louis Park, but yeah, they're all around the same area, but yeah, go ahead. Yeah. There was never, it wasn't an idea to have 80. It wasn't an idea to have two. Right. He was thinking about

We're starting to cultivate the intellectual life, which was a victory right there, right? so, yeah. Love that. And we'll put in the show notes the link to the podcast we did with Dale Alquiz. But when Dale tells the story about the first Chester, and this is in, is it Adina? Adina, yeah. Adina, Minnesota. was technically in St. Louis Park, but yeah, they're all around the same area, but yeah. Yeah. There was never, it wasn't an idea to have 80. It wasn't an idea to have two. Right. He was thinking about

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creating a Catholic school for his own children. And then other people saw what you were doing. Did you get a sense in those first couple years of this could catch on? mean, how did that happen? No, that's fascinating. There was definitely an excitement and a newness to this. even to the point where people from other dioceses and other states were coming and contemplating moving to send their kids to this school.

creating a Catholic school for his own children. And then other people saw what you were doing. Did you get a sense in those first couple years of this could catch on? mean, how did that happen? No, that's fascinating. There was definitely an excitement and a newness to this. even to the point where people from other dioceses and other states were coming and contemplating moving to send their kids to this school.

And I was kind of the, I think I was kind of the wet blanket, have to say. I said, wait a second, let us prove ourselves first. And I think that's where Dale is speaking to, right? Like, hey, let's just get this school off the ground.

And I was kind of the, I think I was kind of the wet blanket, have to say. I said, wait a second, let us prove ourselves first. And I think that's where Dale is speaking to, right? Like, hey, let's just get this school off the ground. But there is definitely from the beginning this new.

But there is definitely from the beginning this new attraction to the coherence of the curriculum. I think the absolute enthusiasm of the people is kind of really coming together as a community of friends to try to put this together. I think that was just palpable and inherently attractive. And it was shortly thereafter, I think, that they started to, maybe we can share our curriculum, what we do with others.

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Attraction to the coherence of the curriculum that I think the the absolute enthusiasm of the people is kind of really coming together as a community to Friends to try to put this together and and I think that was just it was just palpable and it just inherently attractive Yeah And it was shortly thereafter. I think that they starts maybe we can you know share our curriculum what we do with others and I think that may have been the Genesis for them. Yeah, but

may have been the Genesis for the hell yeah but but during my time there the first number of years it was let's get the school off the ground but but the attraction was certainly there. you go you're from founding the first Chesterton over to St. Agnes right a school that had been around for a very long time is that right? I love kind of that but going from a school that was not a parish model school right to one that was very much a part of this school what kind of sparked that transition and

But during my time there the first number of years, it was let's get the school off the ground. But the attraction was certainly there. you go go from founding the first Chesterton over to St. Agnes, right? A school that had been around for a very long time. Is that right? Yeah, I love kind of that. But going from a school that was not a parish model school, right to one that was very much a part of this school. What kind of sparked that transition and tell us about your time working with I think one of the

tell us about your time working with I think one of the best men in this movement Michael Atkins. I agree. Michael Atkins. One of the most thoughtful folks I think and what is going on there at St. Agnes is such a light I think to the rest of Catholic education world. And in my position now too I always recommend

in this movement, Michael Adkins. I agree. We love Michael Adkins. One of the most thoughtful folks, I think, in what is going on there at St. Agnes. It's such a light, I think, to the rest of the Catholic education. And in my position now, too, I always recommend...

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St. Agnes or St. Jerome's as kind of the two beacons of how a diocesan school can revitalize but also recover what they were intended to do when they were founded. yeah, my time at St. Agnes as in the administration was fantastic. It was at the time where the school was making the turn toward a kind of liberal arts education.

St. Agnes or St. Jerome's as kind of the two beacons of how a diocesan school can revitalize but also recover what they were intended to do when they were founded. yeah, my time at St. Agnes as in the administration was fantastic. That was at the time where the school was making the turn toward a kind of liberal arts education.

from being kind of a vanilla diocesan school, liturgically fantastic, but really had kind of, and I don't want to get in trouble with people, predecessors there, but I think kind of a default position of a public school with a crucifix on the wall. Theology was always solid. Religion was always solid. Liturgy was always solid.

from being kind of a vanilla diocesan school, again, liturgically fantastic, but really had kind of, and I don't want to get in trouble with people, predecessors there, but I think kind of a default position of a public school with a crucifix on the Theology was always solid. Religion was always solid. Liturgy was always solid.

but the rest of the curriculum just didn't have that coherence. So Mike was brought on to make that happen. I was then brought on a year or two later to assist in that regard. then meanwhile other administrators brought some more order to the galaxy in terms of, okay, this is how the school ought to run.

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but the rest of the curriculum just didn't have that coherence. So Mike was brought on to make that happen. I was then brought on a year or two later to assist in that regard. then meanwhile other administrators brought some more order to the galaxy in terms of, okay, this is how the school ought to run.

So a moment ago you referred to liberal arts education at St. Agnes. There's this fun loaded question in the Catholic education world of the use of the word classical. I feel like Chesterton does use the word classical. I think they do. But other folks don't. Other people say we never show. It's fine, but maybe not the best. say we got to definitely use this. Some of these new Catholic schools, wanted to say Benedict's classical in think Connecticut, amazing school, but they've got classical

So a moment ago you referred to liberal arts education at St. Agnes. There's this fun loaded question in the Catholic education world of the use of the word classical. I feel like Chesterton does use the word classical. Is that fair? they do. But other folks don't. Other people say we never show. It's fine, but maybe not the best. Others say we got to definitely use this. Some of these new Catholic schools, wanted to say Benedict's classical in think Connecticut, amazing school. But they've got classical.

kind of built into the name, when you have so many stakeholders as the Director of Education for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, how do you encourage folks to think about this term and where it's helpful and maybe where it's not helpful? That's a great question.

kind of built into the name. When you have so many stakeholders as the Director of Education for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, how do you encourage folks to think about this term and where it's helpful and maybe where it's not helpful? That's a great question. You get as many academics in the room, you'll have three academics in the room, you'll have 52 answers to this question. But I think honestly, this is an education born of

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I, you you get as many academics in the room, you'll have, you know, three academics in the room, you'll have 52 answers, right, to this question. But I think, honestly, this is an education born of the heart of the church. And so we say classical as a shorthand, and I think that's perfectly fine, because it takes the best of what human reason has produced and...

heart of the church. And so we say classical as a shorthand and I think that's perfectly fine because it takes the best

of what human reason has produced and welds it together with faith. It's what Thomas Aquinas did with the Aristotelian tradition and Revelation, right? Faith and reason are the two wings upon which the human soul flies to God, as John Paul said in his famous encyclical. And so I think that's the key to understanding all of this is that we're talking about faith and reason. We're also talking about a tradition, however.

Welds it together with faith. So what is what thomas equinas did with the aristotelian tradition and revelation right faith and reason are the two wings upon which the human soul flies to god as john paul said in his famous encyclical And so I think that's the key to understanding all of this is that we're talking about Faith and reason we're also talking about a tradition. However, so c.s. Lewis once Talked about coming to a conversation

CS Lewis once talked about coming to a conversation, joining a conversation at 11 o'clock.

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you know, joining a conversation at 11 o'clock when it started at seven, right? So what are you missing? And so I think that's a key to understanding what authentic Catholic education is, is bringing kids into that conversation. And so we can't just start at a moment in time, and that which is expedient now, but we have to actually bring them into what has been thought and taught throughout the centuries of the Christian.

when it started at seven, right? So what are you missing? And so I think that's a key to understanding what authentic Catholic education is, is bringing kids into that conversation. And so we can't just start at a moment in time and that which is expedient now, but we have to actually bring them into what has been thought and taught throughout the centuries of the Christian.

the Christian revelation and the time since Christ. And when I mentioned earlier about a vanilla Catholic school, I speak not any sort of disparagement toward teachers or individuals who working hard at those places, but rather the lack of bringing that conversation to bear, the lack of immersing the kids in that 2,000 year tradition and rather thinking of it pragmatically.

the Christian revelation and the time since Christ. And when I mentioned earlier about a vanilla Catholic school, I speak not any sort of disparagement toward teachers or individuals who are working hard at those places, but rather the lack of bringing that conversation to bear, the lack of immersing the kids in that 2,000 year tradition and rather thinking of it pragmatically.

Love that. So probably half of our listeners, John, are not Catholic, Protestant brothers here. so I think it's some of the flagship classical Christian non-Catholic schools in the country, schools like Regents in Austin.

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Love that. So probably half of our listeners, John, are not Catholic, Protestant brothers here. so I think it's some of the flagship classical Christian non-Catholic schools in the country.

Schools like Regents in Austin, Veritas in Richmond. My daughters at JMU in Harrisonburg, Virginia, they've got a great classical school. They're a Redeemer classical. And all of these schools are attracting Catholic students. And I've heard Keith Nix, we always talk about Keith Nix on the Inkard podcast, but he likes to joke, but he's not totally joking, that he says he beats a lot of the Catholic schools on Catholic identity as not a Catholic school. And I'll say, look, we read the Fathers, you don't, we're doing Latin.

you know, Veritas in Richmond. My daughters at JMU in Harrisonburg, Virginia, they've got a great classical school there, Redeemer Classical. And all of these schools are attracting Catholic students. And I've heard Keith Nix, we always talk about Keith Nix on the Anchored Podcast, but he likes to joke, but he's not totally joking, that he says he beats a lot of the Catholic schools on Catholic identity as not a Catholic school. And I'll say, look, we read the Fathers, you don't, we're doing Latin, you're not. And truly, some

you're not. And truly some of the most faithful Catholic families are sending their kids to Veritas rather than the Catholic school. Well what can we learn, what can Catholic educators learn from our Protestant brothers that are in this kind of explosive classical Christian space? Yeah, that's a great question.

of the most faithful Catholic families are sending their kids to Veritas rather than the Catholic school. Well, what can we learn? can...

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Catholic educators learn from our Protestant brothers that are in this kind of explosive classical Christian space? Yeah, that's a great question. There's a joke we had in Michigan as well. The best Catholic college in the University of Michigan is Hillsdale. Please don't get me in trouble with the bishops for saying that. Anyway, no, think it's, oftentimes we kind of get fat and happy, right? We have this great gift of the faith and we have this great gift of the truth.

There's a joke we had in Michigan as well, the best Catholic college in University of Michigan is Hillsdale. Please don't get me in trouble with the bishops for saying that. Anyway, think it's, oftentimes we kind of get fat and happy, right? We have this great gift of the faith and we have this great gift of the truth.

In the sacraments in this life in Christ that we take for granted. It's like a guy who lives in Rome He's a native Roman this whole life, you know, probably walks past the Coliseum 800 times a day Whereas you and I would come and be amazed. Yeah, this is the cradle of civilization I think that's that's part of it. I think that's some of it here is what our ancestors have really just

in the sacraments in this life in Christ that we take for granted. It's like a guy who lives in Rome. He's a native Roman his whole life, you know, probably walks past the Coliseum 800 times a day. I think of whereas you and I would come and be amazed. Yeah, this is the cradle of civilization. I think that's that's part of it. I think that's some of it. Here is what our ancestors have really just.

bequeathed us and We kind of kept it on the shelf and we take it out every now and again But here are separated brothers in the Protestant churches say whoa wait a second. This is this is a treasure It should be utilized and I think we need to like take a do a little bit of a

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bequeathed us and We kind of kept it on the shelf and we take it out every now and again But here are separated brothers in the Protestant churches say whoa wait a second. This is this is a treasure It should be utilized and I think we need to like take a route

do a little bit of a examination of conscience. What are we not providing our own kids or our posterity or what have you and I maybe been deprived of? let's rediscover that, recover that and bring that to a new generation. think that's what we have much to learn from not just Protestants but converts in general. They usually discover something that cradle Catholics might be sleepy about. That was my experience, for sure.

Examination of conscience. are we not? Providing our own kids or our posterity or what have you and I maybe been deprived of sure And and let's let's read let's let's rediscover that recover that and bring that to a new generation I think that's I think that's what we have much to learn from not just process but converts in general They usually discover something that cradle Catholics might be sleepy about that was my experience, know for sure we can we can talk about that

We can talk about that at another time for sure. But I think that the story of Catholic education in America in some ways, for me discovering it has been a sad story in the sense of 1965, half of all Catholic children are in Catholic schools.

at another time for sure. But you know I think that the story of Catholic education in America in some ways, know for me discovering it has been a sad story in the sense of you know 1965.

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half of all Catholic children are in Catholic schools. And today it's maybe 8%. But that drop, also you see it mirrored in people going to, families going to church together on Sunday. But nobody's more dialed into this than you are. Are you hopeful, have we turned a corner? Are you hopeful about the future of Catholic education in the country?

And today it's maybe 8 % right but that drop also you see it mirrored and people going to families going to church together, you know on Sunday But you know, nobody's more dialed into this than you are Are you hopeful have we turned a corner? Are you hopeful about the future of Catholic education in the country?

Very much so. think that right now you have a group of bishops who are currently in their C's, in their dioceses, who recognize, wow, the positions of Catholic education are so key and the persons we put in those positions are so key. We need to provide for their formation. We have to make sure that they're properly formed and the right people to communicate the gospel because this is a chance

Very much so. think that right now you have a group of bishops who are currently in their C's, in their dioceses, who recognize, wow, the positions of Catholic education are so key and the persons we put in those positions are so key. We need to provide for their formation. We have to make sure that they're properly formed and the right people to communicate the gospel because this is a chance

for formation and education that is unlike any other. You have these kids in, they probably are in their Catholic school longer than they're with their parents often enough. And this is a tremendous opportunity that shouldn't be squandered. And I think the bishops we have right now, especially in the Committee on Catholic Education, which I serve, and staff, are very keen on that formational aspect of both administrator, teacher, as well as the kids. And so I think in years past, we may have been, like I said, fat in half.

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for formation and education that is unlike any other. You have these kids in, they probably are in their Catholic school longer than they're with their parents often enough. And this is a tremendous opportunity that shouldn't be squandered. And I think the bishops we have right now, especially in the Committee on Catholic Education, which I serve, and staff, are very keen on that formational aspect of both administrator, teacher, as well as the kids. And so I think in years past, we may have been, like I said, fat in half.

kind of just let you know kind of gone with the flow. Now because of the because of the frankly the recognitions and for the last number of decades of the crisis of catechesis but also the crazy world in which we live.

kind of just let you know kind of gone gone with the flow now because of the because of the Frankly the recognitions and for the last number of decades of the crisis of catechesis, but also the crazy world in which we live

where we need reason just as much as faith to be able to see through the morass and see through the darkness and see through various competing interests. I think more than ever, Catholic education is essential and I think they see that. So that's where I'm very hopeful. And folks like yourself, other leaders in the movement of Catholic education and Christian education just to recover this great tradition that we've had that's just been waiting for us, but we've somehow just gotten lazy about it, I think.

where we need reason just as much as faith to be able to see through the morass and see through the darkness and see through various competing interests. I think more than ever, Catholic education is essential and I think they see that. So that's where I'm very hopeful. folks like yourself, other leaders in the movement of Catholic education and Christian education just to recover this great tradition that we've had that's just been waiting for us, but we've somehow just gotten lazy about it, I think.

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Mark was who I assume is a mutual friend. I consider Laura kind of the mother of Catholic homeschooling and kind of the modern age. Laura was on the podcast just a few months ago. She's been on the CLT board since almost the very beginning. Her late husband Mark was one of the founders of her Thomas Aquinas College. This revival in Catholic homeschooling, Colby, Seton, Mother of Divine Grace, somebody doing it independently and we're seeing on the test side.

Mark West who I assume is a mutual friend, I consider Laura kind of the mother of Catholic homeschooling in kind of the modern age. So Laura was on the podcast just a few months ago. She's been on the CLT board since almost the very beginning. Her late husband Mark was one of the founders over at Thomas Aquinas College. This revival in Catholic homeschooling, Colby, Seton, Mother of Divine Grace, somebody doing it independently and we're seeing on the test side.

These students are very well formed academically. What has that been like from the bishops perspective as there's been this kind of organic movement also on the Catholic home schooling side? That's a really good question. I think you would get different opinions from different bishops and their experiences. I do think there'd be a general observation however, and again I'm not speaking for them but it's my observation of the whole.

These students are very well formed academically. What has that been like from the bishops perspective as there's been this kind of organic movement also on the Catholic Home Schooling side? That's a really good question. I think you would get different opinions from different bishops and their experiences. I do think there'd be a general observation however, and again I'm not speaking for them, but it's my observation of the whole.

That really is kind of a taking on of what the second Vatican Council said in its decree on the laity. are, are the first and primary teachers. how we choose to educate our kids is up to us. That's our God given right. We don't need a priest to tell us that necessarily. We do have the obligation however to form them in the faith, to form them.

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that really is kind of a taking on of what the Second Vatican Council said in its decree on the laity. are, parents are the first and primary teachers. how we choose to educate our kids is up to us. That's our God given right. We don't need a priest to tell us that, necessarily. We do have the obligation however to form them in the faith, to form them.

according to the dictates of the Catholic Church. But I think the way in which we do that, the circumstances in which we find ourselves, admit of great variety. And so this homeschooling movement, which has ballooned over

according to the dictates of the Catholic Church. But I think the way in which we do that, the circumstances in which we find ourselves, admit of great variety. And so this homeschooling movement, which has ballooned over the years.

and it is tremendously successful. You've seen it with CLT. And even in the vocations, as I understand it. absolutely, absolutely. And so I think bishops would, and I certainly, would see that as just a living out of the vocation of the lay state, right? This is the vocation of the laity to do this.

and it is tremendously successful. You've seen it with the CLT. And even in the vocations, as I understand it. absolutely, absolutely. And so I think bishops would, and I certainly, would see that as just a living out of the vocation of the lay state, right? This is the vocation of the laity to do this.

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And I think, but again, remember that schools were founded, Catholic schools were founded initially by the bishops to aid parents in this whole process, right? Not everyone can homeschool. Not everyone was able to do that. So schools were always created to help the youth of Catholic parents. And so if it works for you to homeschool, great. If it doesn't, the church needs to provide something for that family. that. Let's talk a bit about AI.

And I think, again, remember that schools were founded, the Catholic schools were founded initially by the bishops to aid parents in this whole process, right? Not everyone can homeschool. Not everyone was able to do that. So schools were always created to help the youth of Catholic parents. And so if it works for you to homeschool, great. If it doesn't, the church needs to provide something for that family. that. Let's talk a bit about AI.

that Pope Leo took on the name Pope Leo and that's of course a reference to Pope Leo the 13th who was who was the Pope during the Industrial Revolution and a lot of changes to the future of work at that time and we're going through that right now and it presents massive challenges for schools.

that Pope Leo took on the name Pope Leo and that's of course a reference to Pope Leo the 13th who was who was the Pope during the Industrial Revolution and a lot of changes to the future of work at that time and we're going through that right now and it presents massive challenges for schools.

And in some ways, I'm hopeful that maybe AI can actually kind of force education back to first principles. So there could be some really exciting things about this, but how are you navigating this? I know a lot of schools, the way they've done things forever, they can't do them anymore. Just within a year. No, it's amazing.

CLT Exam (19:10.386)
And in some ways, I'm hopeful that maybe AI can actually kind of force education back to first principles. So there could be some really exciting things about this, but how are you navigating this? I know a lot of schools, the way they've done things forever, they can't do them anymore. Just within a year. No, it's amazing.

especially when AI comes on the scene and you have software to detect, hey, this kid probably, AI probably wrote this, right? But that software is out of date now. It's too good for the software to detect. But no, that's an excellent question. think Popplio is certainly ahead of his time, or is ahead of the curve in articulating that as one of his very first pronouncements.

especially when AI comes on the scene and you have software to detect, hey, this kid probably, AI probably wrote this, right? But that software is out of date now. It's too good for the software to detect. But no, that's an excellent question. think Popplio is certainly ahead of his time, or is ahead of the curve in articulating that as one of his very first pronouncements.

With regard to education, I think you're right. I think it does force us to go back and to discuss first principles and what is education for and also cultivation of virtue. It's so easy to put a prompt in.

With regard to education, I think you're right. I think it does force us to go back and to discuss first principles and what is education for and also cultivation of virtue. It's so easy to put a prompt in.

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to some AI bot or whatever they're called and have something spit out, which is actually probably pretty decent, depending on the problem to whatever else. But is that honest? Is that teaching our kids self-control? Are we teaching them how to work and teaching them how to really toil in order to develop their intellect and to be free persons? And I think AI presents a very big challenge to the freedom that God intended for all of us. Not to mention just honesty

to some AI bot or whatever they're called and have something spit out, which is actually probably pretty decent, depending on the problem to whatever else. But is that honest? Is that teaching our kids self-control? Are we teaching them how to work and teaching them how to really toil in order to develop their intellect and to be free persons? And I think AI presents a very big challenge to the freedom that God intended for all of us. Not to mention just honesty

and study and what have you. the work require, anything that's worth doing requires work, right? And so we're depriving our students by kind of an uncritical look at AI. We're depriving them of their ability to truly form themselves and for us to help form them intellectually.

study and what have you. the work require, anything that's worth doing requires work, right? And so we're depriving our students by kind of an uncritical look at AI. We're depriving them of their ability to truly form themselves and for us to help form them intellectually.

That's current issue that we're facing and the bishops are facing as a committee on Catholic education There's there's great promise in many things. So But there's also tremendous danger As a former teacher and administrator, I see the danger side probably more because you see the abuse but

CLT Exam (21:04.558)
That's current issue that we're facing and the bishops are facing as a committee on Catholic education There's there's great promise in many things. So But there's also tremendous danger As a former teacher and administrator, I see the danger side probably more because you see the abuse but

at this point this is just a very live issue and so many unknowns that we can't really pronounce outright condemnation versus uncritical phrase. I was really shocked. was given a talk to a room full of university professors two weeks ago at Providence College and I asked us for show of hands who's regularly using chat GPT.

at this point this is just a very live issue and so many unknowns that we can't really pronounce outright condemnation versus an uncritical phrase. I was really shocked. was given a talk to a room full of university professors two weeks ago at Providence College and I asked for a show of hands who's regularly using chat GPT.

Maybe I think one hand went up, probably 75, 80 people there. But I think in a lot of other sectors, almost every single hand goes up. And most people I know that are running companies, they use it all the time, every day. And so I'm wondering when these two things are going to really kind of come together. One thing I think is helpful, again, as a way, if we're talking about education, Catholic education as a formation of youth,

Maybe I think one hand went up, probably 75, 80 people there. But I think in a lot of other sectors, almost every single hand goes up. And most people I know that are running companies, they use it all the time, every day. And so I'm wondering when these two things are gonna really kinda come together. One thing I think is helpful, again, as a way, if we're talking about education, Catholic education as a formation of youth,

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What do you do with your kids? You do deprive them, you know? It's okay, you know? Eat your beans before you have the dessert, right? Sorry, we're gonna deprive you of dessert until and unless you eat your beans or whatever.

what do do with your kids? You do deprive them, you know? It's okay, Eat your beans before you have the dessert, right? Sorry, we're gonna deprive you of dessert until and unless you eat your beans or whatever. I think there should be real consideration given to...

I think there should be real consideration given to the deviceless souls. Amen, amen. Happily, most recently at Chelsea Academy, had that and it was a game changer in terms of relationships, in terms of friendships. So when you got to Chelsea in 2010, was there a policy or did you put one in place?

the device-less schools. Amen, amen. Happily, most recently at Chelsea Academy, had that, and it was a game changer in terms of relationships, in terms of friendships. And it's not... So when you got to Chelsea in 2010, was there a policy or did you put one in place?

because it can be hard to pull the, once it's, it can be hard to undo. Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right. I think happily Chelsea was founded with that already Okay, wow, okay. But other schools I've been at, Ann Arbor in particular, Cat's already out of the bag. So how do you reel that back in?

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because it can be hard to pull the, once it's, it can be hard to undo. Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right. I think happily Chelsea was founded with that already Okay, wow, okay. But other schools I've been at, Ann Arbor in particular, Cat's already out of the bag. So how do you reel that back in?

Again, shorthand answer was bell to bell. I don't want to see it. Recently there's a piece I saw of a headmaster who said if we see your young man's phone, we will destroy it. And I think it's great. But I think it's a distraction. It's a tool that you don't give a young person a tool that he doesn't know how to wield. And so I heard the analogy before.

Again, quick shorthand answer was bell to bell. don't want to see it. Recently, there is a piece I saw of a headmaster who said, if we see your young man's phone, we will destroy it. And I think it's great. But I think it's a distraction. It's a tool that you don't give a young person a tool that he doesn't know how to wield. And so I heard the analogy before.

you don't give a chainsaw to a five year old. Right? Yeah. And this is in effect, a chainsaw. Totally. And so, and we're not teaching them basic skills of independence and that which ultimately will go toward their freedom. Yeah. And, and I think it's, I think serious consideration should be made to eliminate the tech in the schools before that very recently convinced that the main requirement is that every young person must read and digest the Lord of the Rings before they get an I thought it was great. Cause you got

you don't give a chainsaw to a five year old, right? And this is in effect, a chainsaw. And so, and we're not teaching them basic skills of independence, which ultimately will go toward their freedom. And I think serious consideration should be made to eliminate the tech in the schools before that very reason. I'm increasingly convinced that the main requirement is that every young person must read and digest the Lord of the Rings before they get an I thought.

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You've got the ring in your pocket and it will consume you unless you're ready to fight it consuming you. Yeah, 100%. There was a piece written by a neurosurgeon at the University of Michigan. I can't think of his name, forgive me, but it was around 2010 or so. early on in the iPhone, or actually it might have ended a little earlier, maybe 2008, early on in the iPhone phenomenon.

You've got the ring in your pocket and it will consume you unless you're ready to fight it consuming you. Yeah, 100%. There was a piece written by a neurosurgeon at the University of Michigan. I can't think of his name, forgive me, but it was around 2010 or so. early on in the iPhone, or actually it might have ended a little earlier, maybe 2008, early on in the iPhone phenomenon, right? Okay.

And he talks about the scrolling and how he is a fully formed adult who has his degrees and he's been teaching at the university, how he cannot sit for two hours straight and do sustained reading. He's skimming, he's fidgeting, he's looking at his phone to who emailed me, all that sort of thing. And this is a guy who's already had the...

And he talks about the scrolling and how...

he is a fully formed adult who has his degrees and he's been teaching at the university how he cannot sit for two hours straight and do sustained reading. He's skimming, he's fidgeting, he's looking at his phone to who emailed me, all that sort of thing. And this is a guy who's already had the habits of mind, had the habit of the self-control. And so if that can happen to a fully tenured professor at the University of Michigan, what do you think is gonna happen to a 15-year-old?

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of mind. I had the habit, the self-control. And so if that can happen to a fully tenured professor at the University of Michigan...

What do think is gonna happen to a 15 year old? and so and so all the more we in and the fact that the tech Gurus never gave their kid the device they go to all the unplugged exactly exactly is that's that should be evidence right there So so yeah, I'm a big fan and I think again to understand God man in the universe and to really under understand things in reality

So all the more, and the fact that the tech gurus never gave their kid the device. They go to all the unplugged Exactly, exactly. That should be evidence right there. So yeah, I'm a big fan. And I think, again, to understand God, man, and the universe, and to really understand things in reality.

need to unplug because it's a pixelated unreality is what it is. That's a very powerful way to put it. John, we always end the Anchor podcast talking about books. What is a book that has been most formative for you? Maybe a book that you come back to time and time again. Wow. Wow. How much time do you have I suppose?

need to unplug because it's a pixelated unreality is what it is. That's a very powerful way to put it. John, we always end the Anchor podcast talking about books. What is a book that has been most formative for you? Maybe a book that you come back to time and time again. Wow. Wow. How much time do you have, I suppose?

CLT Exam (26:00.11)
Recently, I think I've come back time and time again to this is probably Brideshead Revisited by Evelyn Waugh. Just the pros alone. Yes. 100%. I love Evelyn Waugh generally. He's a kind of a curmudgeon, which I'm a bit of a curmudgeon sometimes. My wife will tell you all the time. no, I think in the modern world in particular, when there is this hopelessness,

Recently, I think I've come back time and time again to this is probably bride said revisited by Evelyn Waugh Just the pros alone. Yes 100 % I love Evelyn Waugh generally. He's a kind of a curmudgeon, which I My wife will tell you all the time, but but no I think the in the modern world in particular When there is this hopelessness? God's always there at the twitch on the thread and so that is something to reinforce

God's always there at the twitch on the thread. And so that is something to reinforce to not only our young people, but us as adults too, that there's nothing so awful or circumstance so dire that we can't be brought back. So you may have kind of just answered this, but I've had some friends read it who are not Catholic, and you hear Baron and others say this is the greatest Catholic apologetic fiction work of the 20th century. I had other non-Catholic friends read it and say, actually, it didn't really draw me to the Catholic Church.

to not only our young people but us as adults too, that there's nothing so awful or circumstance so dire that we can't be brought back.

So you may have kind of just answered this, I've had some friends read it who are not Catholic, and you hear Baron and others say this is the greatest Catholic apologetic fiction work of the 20th century. I've had other non-Catholic friends read it and say, actually, didn't really draw me to the Catholic Church. How do you respond to that? Yeah, really, that's a good question, too. I'll share a little anecdote the first time. It took me a long time to read it, because every time I started, I'm like, this is damn so proper. don't want read it.

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respond to that? Yeah really that's a good question too. I'll share a little anecdote the first time. It took me a long time to read it because every time I started I'm like, this is damn so proper. But I think looking into, I think two things, looking at persons, places, and things in one's life and when they are there and

I think looking into, I think, two things. Looking at persons, places, and things in one's life and when they are there.

when they are going to reappear again, there is a reason that this guy came to this house and met this family at this time. And it wasn't apparent to him right away. It was later on and just this exposure to this family and their faith and he didn't understand it. He was attracted by beauty. He was attracted by these various things, but it played a part. Those are seminal moments in his life that played a part later on that allowed him at the very end to make a tremendous sacrifice that he otherwise wouldn't have made.

when they are going to reappear again, there is a reason that this guy came to this house and met this family at this time. And it wasn't apparent to him right away. It was later on and just this exposure to this family and their faith. And he didn't understand it. He was attracted by beauty. He was attracted by these various things. But it played a part. Those are seminal moments in his life that played a part later on that allowed him at the very end to make a tremendous sacrifice that he otherwise wouldn't have made.

embrace the truth. the family is not, you would think a great work, they're not a family overflowing with joy and health and flirty, like they're disaster. total disaster. They're a mess. yeah. Gives hope for the rest of us. Yeah. No, I think it's just, I think it's in, in, wah, in one way.

CLT Exam (27:49.494)
embrace the truth. the family is not, you would think a great work, they're not a family overflowing with joy and health and flirty like, they're disaster. Yeah, total disaster. They're a mess. yeah. Gives hope for the rest of us. No, I think it's just, I think it's in, in, wah, in one way.

I think captured real life. There's a grittiness to life. And God works through the grittiness and the hurt and the sorrow and the divorces and the addictions and whatever else. Those are means by which he can call us back. So they're not to be avoided. Usually those disasters happen because of a misuse of our will.

I think captured real life, there's a grittiness to life. And God works through the grittiness and the hurt and the sorrow and the divorces and the addictions and whatever else. Those are means by which he can call us back. So they're not to be.

there to be avoided when you can't, know, but that usually those disasters happen because of a misuse of our will because of some sort of a straying from.

because of some sort of a straying from...

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what is intended for us, right? And so it's usually our fault. But even with that, he's still gonna call you back, and he still can call you back. Beautiful. It's a great note to end on. Again, we're here with John Dejac, who is the Director of Education for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. John, thanks for the work you're doing over at USCCB. Thanks for coming out to Annapolis today and being on the podcast. Great. Grateful, Jeremy. Thank you so much. Thank you.

what is intended for us, right? And so it's usually our fault. But even with that, he's still gonna call you back and he still can call you back. Beautiful. It's a great note to end on. Again, we're here with John Dejac, who is the Director of Education for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. John, thanks for the work you're doing over at USCCB. Thanks for coming out to Annapolis today and being on the podcast. Great. Grateful, Jeremy. Thank you so much. Thank you.