Film and Family
We're a married couple of filmmakers, supporting our family of seven through doing work we love, together. It's been a long and difficult journey, and we still have a lot to learn, but for us, it's well-worth the effort.
We developed this podcast and the Feature Filmmaker Academy for anyone who wants a career making feature films, especially those balancing that pursuit with the responsibility of parenthood and providing for a family.
Tune in as we study success patterns of industry professionals, interview other feature filmmakers, share takeaways from our favorite film courses or books, and give behind-the-scenes breakdowns and insights on films you love.
Film and Family
Ep. 104 - Hitting a Home Run on a Micro Budget Film with Lee Cipolla and Katherine Borda
What happens when a decades-long dream project suddenly gains unstoppable momentum? For married filmmakers Lee and Katherine, their baseball-themed feature "Rally Caps" represents both the unpredictable magic and sobering business realities of modern independent filmmaking.
After 15 years of development, what began as a passion project during the pandemic transformed when former MLB player Curtis Pride joined with his children as cast members, Major League Baseball provided support, and stars Judd Hirsch and Amy Smart signed on. As Katherine reveals, "The universe was our executive producer" – whenever the production seemed doomed, last-minute miracles kept it alive.
The duo generously shares hard-earned wisdom that could save fellow filmmakers thousands of dollars and countless headaches. Katherine's marketing background proves crucial, emphasizing that marketing considerations should influence creative decisions from day one. "Put some kind of marketing budget in there," she urges, highlighting the importance of professional photo shoots, behind-the-scenes documentation, and strategic product placement. Their partnership with Phonak, a hearing aid company, exemplifies how sponsorships can organically enhance storytelling while providing crucial financing.
Perhaps their most valuable insight challenges the romantic notion of filmmaking as primarily creative work. "99% of making a film is business and logistics," Lee explains, detailing their harrowing experience navigating SAG requirements that nearly derailed production. They emphasize starting SAG paperwork 6-8 weeks before production and setting aside significant funds for bonds.
For directors seeking representation, Lee offers balanced perspective on working with managers: "It's a partnership... their job is not to go out and get stuff for you." Instead, his manager provides script feedback, creative dialogue, and occasional meeting opportunities – a realistic relationship that contrasts with unrealistic expectations many filmmakers hold.
Whether you're starting your first film or scaling up your productions, this conversation illuminates the path forward in an industry where traditional routes to success have disappeared. Check out "Rally Caps" on Peacock to see the fruits of their labor, and visit http://www.crystalrockentertainment.com to connect with these generous filmmakers who truly understand what it takes to bring an independent vision to life.
awesome, hey. Well, welcome lee and katherine to the film and family podcast. We're so happy to have you thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you yeah, so um, lee and katherine are, um, a married filmmaking duo, which sounds obnoxiously cheesy when I say it like that, but no shame, because that's what we are. And you guys are in Colorado and they just released a film that we became aware of because it was showing at the same festival as us, called Rally Caps, and there's just so much to dive into about Rally Caps. But this is not your first feature film. From what I've sleuthed online of you guys, this is like your fourth, fifth.
Speaker 2:So it's my fourth film directing and it's our second or third film as a directing producing couple Correct, kathy.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think it's the third. Yeah, it's hard to keep count, but yes, indeed.
Speaker 3:So it sounds like, catherine, you're the one who got kind of pulled into this. Is that right?
Speaker 4:Yes, a little bit, a little bit. Yes, the first time he talked to me about the project he had another book that he wanted to um to adapt. But I have a marketing background and when he brought me that first book, I'm like I don't know how to market this. I mean, I know you love it. Uh, he was holding like exciting about it and I'm like I don't know how to market this, so I would recommend not to waste time on adapting a book that book. So I would recommend not to waste time on adapting a book that book. Then he got this book and then I said, before I read the book, pitch it to me, give me an elevator pitch. And he did. And actually I said I know how to market this and definitely. Then he started writing it and I got involved once production started and and I saw some difficulties in production that he was facing because he was director, writer, producer. So he's like, no, I think that you need help. So that's how.
Speaker 3:I got involved, okay, so was it a book first or was it just he wrote the screenplay? It was a book first yeah. I didn't realize that it's a book yeah, it's a book, it's, it's.
Speaker 4:It's a little different, I think, and leak, you can talk about the adaptation of the book. Um, it's a little different, but um, go ahead yeah, it's based on a book by uh.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's a daughter father, uh combination writing team, steven cutler and jody mich Cutler, and they wrote the book based on their. It's an amalgamation of their own experiences. So there's a lot of true stories Jodi's story, stephen's story, essentially, and then Jodi's son who wears a cochlear implant. Lucas's character is based on her son, and so they amalgamated the the storylines into a book that was released, I believe, in 2008.
Speaker 2:So it's been out for a bit and Stephen reached out to me back when it was released, because it was after my first couple of films had come out through Lionsgate and he found me online. He sent me a bunch of memorabilia and he'd already made shirts for the movie and he was really excited and I thought at that time I mean, I definitely always wanted to make a baseball movie. I love the Sandlot, field of Dreams, all of those iconic films, america's Pastime Slice of know. Americana always wanted to sort of live in that space and work in that space, and this was an opportunity to do that. But it's also making a baseball movie with kids. Is is pretty expensive for a independent micro budget feature and that's really the the projects that I was working on at the time and so, you know, 10, 15 years past, I had pitched the project to Disney. When I worked there, they actually they liked it. So they said and but it was just, it's just hard to make those types of movies, that those really are budgeted at 15, 20, 25 million dollars and, uh, it's, it's just hard to to market and profit them in this, you know, in this new landscape of distribution, and so I tried to to pitch the idea, uh, with disney and several other you know platforms, but we just weren't getting anywhere.
Speaker 2:And then, during the time of the pandemic, steven reached out again. Um, I call I always call it the quarterly report with him because he would check in every few months. Uh, he was very, very dedicated and it was a big dream of his and it, you know, beginning of 2020, we everything shut down. You guys know it, all the projects that I was developing with my manager, um, just just everything shut down. So it was an opportunity for me to work on something that I wanted to do, and that's when I I just thought I was going to adapt the screenplay and then the screenplay would just sort of sit in a drawer, so to speak, the digital, digital drawer of my or digital folder of my laptop, yeah, and. But it was finally a project where I could, you know, just have some fun and and and work on a Sandlot-type kids' baseball movie and see where it goes from there.
Speaker 2:And, long story short, it started to pick up some traction after the first couple of drafts. People liked it. My manager said it was one of the best things he's seen from me. This was all surprising. And then, little by little, we gained traction. We were going to just make it as a very small micro budget project and then we got investors and resources. Curtis pride came on who's in the movie, his kids are in the movie playing lucas and nikki those are his children and he got major league baseball, uh, involved. And suddenly just the, the, you know the the status raised. That really raised the bar. And then we got additional investors. And then then here we are.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I really like this idea of like the project kind of carrying itself away, almost like because that was our last film, I feel like our first film, we really felt like a little more like we were digging in the dirt with our fingernails.
Speaker 4:You know.
Speaker 1:And then the second one. It was like we had like two kind of developing at the same time One just kind of dropped dead, and then the other one just kind of opened up and it just and it just wouldn't stop.
Speaker 1:It just, and it hasn't stopped, it just keeps going without us and we're like, oh, this is nice of you to bring us along, you know, but it doesn't really feel like this force of will, and so that's kind of what you're saying. You're like, oh wow, the script was received well, and then people are coming on board and it's at least and it doesn't feel like that every day, I'm sure but like, but there's to feel that wind in the sails sometimes.
Speaker 2:So well articulated and me and Kathy are both or Kathy and I are both spiritual people and we do believe in the laws of the universe, and especially as it pertains to this industry. It feels like you can be working on something and dedicate all your time to it and feel like this is the project that's going to pick up and go, and it doesn't happen. And so often, as filmmakers, we're spending so much of our time and resources to get something off the ground and it can be years and years and you know, it's sort of a house of cards and it just like, I feel, like other businesses. You can work on something and it's more cards and it just like I feel like other businesses. You, you, you can work on something and it's more tangible, and it might not succeed, but you, you have something to show for it.
Speaker 2:But you can develop a project in this industry for years and just nothing like, just it just dissipates, and so that's years of your life, um, and then something like you know, rally caps, which is ironic to say because you know it was 15 years in the. Something like you know rally caps, which is ironic to say because you know it was 15 years in the making, you know, especially with the writers when they reached out to me. But honestly, when it came together, it came together very fast and it was the pretty much the last project that I thought was it that was going to happen to, especially during the pandemic when everyone was making films about two people in a cabin, like that's what you were supposed to do giant camp.
Speaker 2:It's full of like a covid central, like it's like yes you know, 16 kids, their parents, a camp, like it's the last, like kind of the last thing to do is a micro budget film at that point, and of course that's the one that happens. But, um, to your point, yeah, you, just you have to, you know, ride the river downstream sometimes and when it's meant to be, it's meant to be and we, we fully believe in that, especially because of all of the checkpoints along the way, and I'm not sure if we have the time to get into all of it, but it just really really crazy. Things had to happen, small miracles, maybe even big miracles. You know, kathy, that we that happened to keep this project going because there was many points along the line that it was about to shut down. And it just something at the last minute, bottom of the ninth, as we joke like something would happen and it would stay alive.
Speaker 4:And so I always say to him I was like we have the executive producer, was the universe, that's it. I mean, there was always something that when he was ready to like, ok, this is it, something happened. Ok, we keep moving, but it was like that at the end Something happened and he's like, okay, we keep moving, but it was like that at the end, like I feel that this last six months of the movie I was already trusting the universe so much that it's like you know what Everything is going to work out. I don't know how, but it will, because it was so many things that happened through the movie that it's like, okay, I'm going to trust this, I'm going to do my job, and that's as much as I can control. Once you leave, let go.
Speaker 3:The control, I think, is when things start going to happen, yeah, yeah, I think you have to kind of let go of the result, and just that's how it's been for us too, where we just have to have lots of irons in the fire and we don't really know what's going to happen when, um, the thing we're developing next is one we wrote seven or eight years ago, and it it's just like maybe now is the time you know, and you never really know until it's it starts to come together and it's weird that it just it will stall as long as it needs to, and then all of a sudden, you're like I need, I need I need something right now.
Speaker 1:And then something breaks and it's always, like you guys said, one of our nights. I so relate to that. I really appreciate that perspective. It makes me feel less crazy.
Speaker 3:So can we rewind a little? I just want to because you have a history of doing this for a while kind of take us back to the beginning of your career. You said you worked at Disney, but now you're doing independent film. How did you get into this? Is this what you guys are doing, full time to support your family? What did that look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in a nutshell, like I think it was David Mammoth who said that every time he approaches a screenplay it's a completely different process, despite him being a master at it at this point, right Considered a master at it at this point, right Considered a master. And so it's so hard to, I guess, combine the entire experience because, as you guys know, every time you make a movie it's a different process. But I think what really got me into it was just the power of the medium. The first time that I was able to make a short film in high school and it was just my buddies and a couple of classmates and, like the teacher shut off the room, we showed it in class and people were touched by it, you know, and laughed and you know and all that.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's a really powerful medium to get messages out, and I think that also there's, of course, the allure and as a younger filmmaker, like you know, you love the awards and the red carpet and everything and that's exciting too, right, toets? And all that kind of stuff doesn't hold a torch to the power of being able to contribute to society with things that can really touch people and move people and move audiences, and so that's why I know that I stuck with it and all that other stuff is. Can I curse? Is that okay? It's just PC.
Speaker 3:We won't stop it or edit it, it's okay.
Speaker 2:I'll clean it up for you guys, but it's BS.
Speaker 3:If people have their kids around, I guess yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'll just say it's BS. All of this other. You know you should feel proud of your work and you should feel proud of awards and all of that stuff. But if you go into it like a self-fulfilling prophecy or you know a rites of passage for yourself, I just don't think you're going to get to the place you want to be At least that's been the journey for me is the power to get people to watch something and learn something about themselves or connect something about it, because it, you know it does have the power to save lives, and so that's what drives me I, I really appreciate that perspective because, um, you know, we're on movie number two.
Speaker 1:Movie number one didn't didn't do a ton of awards, in terms of that, you know, but it was really exciting to watch it with people. It was nerve-wracking too. But movie number two it was like just this blessing of like working super hard on it and there was, like you know, saturday morning it showed and then Saturday night it won a lot of awards. It did pretty well with you guys as well. You guys did really well at Ziff. But, yeah, like the awards are strange and conflicting and you have these things that happen in your head where you're like, well, these are just like that person's opinion versus that person's opinion and it's weird what it does to you actually and then like, but sitting in that room, like experiencing a story that you've really put together, like to your point, with that audience I remember Steven Spielberg talking about recreating that and the fable men's, like his early experiences, like showing short films in high school, basically, and how he's hooked on that feeling, that feeling of showing it to an audience and feeling this feeling of like I can, I can like create this, this massive collective experience of like fear or laughter or tears or whatever, or inspiration and like it's, like that's, that's, I'm not sure what it is that makes that so amazing.
Speaker 1:But we've often said that a film is a medium of best suited for connection, not conversion. Like I really I don't know, I just I resonate a lot with that perspective. So I appreciate that. How do you feel like your early films and early career really prepared the way for this film? Because you were saying that the book, the author, he like, reached out to you so he was familiar with your work and and that's kind of what we're all about is trying to get people like some momentum, like get that first film made so you can create momentum enough to have a career. But most people just sit around, they don't make anything.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think a lot of people feel like maybe their first film they try to make too big of a leap. You know, it's like we've got to make a million dollar film, we've got to have name talent, we've got to do all these things, and so we really try to encourage our audience to start small. You know, and typically what we teach is sort of getting financing in whatever way you can keep your day job, like doing this, on the side until you can build it up Logistically. Was that kind of how your first film looked, you know, or was it independent from the very beginning for you?
Speaker 2:no-transcript. They naturally started small, and why we're I feel like we're such a good uh, um, a collaboration of minds is that we're both creative, um and but Kathy's very organized with um, you know, being able to lead one side of the production and I can lead the other side. So it was always helpful in the micro budget space to have a partner who could, you know, understand how the logistics of it and I can go be a little bit more creative. So naturally, we did start from very small projects and I think that is naturally good advice for filmmakers that are starting. But I also would just say that it really depends on the situation.
Speaker 2:Right, there's people who get their starts with selling a great script. They might have some fantasy huge idea that they can. It's free to write a script. Right, it's not free in terms of time and effort and sweat and blood and sweat and tears, but it's free. You don't have to invest your own money into it. So if you write a really great script and go that way, that's your path and you can get it made.
Speaker 2:But if you're looking to really get something off the ground, if you don't have that big idea, if you don't have that big script that's selling and you're trying to make it on your own. Yes, small and concentrated, but I would just also really push the idea that what inspires you needs to be personal and so whatever that takes right. So just going out and saying I'm going to make a film for I don't know $5,000 because I can, you know, great, have at it. But I think, circling back to our earlier point, where, if it's really coming from within and you have something to say, whatever it takes to make that the right way, that's what you got to go for. And if it happens to be a small budget, great.
Speaker 4:But um, I would like to add something to go for me uh, from a producer's perspective because, uh, for example, my background I started this career as a line producer. I started like, from coordinating to all the way to line producer to UPM and one of the things is that when we moved to LA, I ended up in marketing. For some reason, life took me to marketing and I started working in big studios in marketing, in creative marketing, in marketing, in creative marketing. And when I started learning about marketing, I said anybody should study marketing if you want to be a producer. I totally agree, and I think Riley Capps is a very good example.
Speaker 4:You can market a movie with heart. If you really feel that the movie has a heart, that is a passion of yours and all that stuff perfect. But at the same time let's be realistic it's a business. If you want to stay in this business, you have to sell the movie. You have to know your audience, you have to know where the market. The cool thing that is happening right now is that there's so many genres and so many like you know that you can concentrate on many things, that there's so many genres and so many like you know that, uh, you can concentrate on many things and there's always going to be a a an audience for your movie, but uh, but one of the biggest things that I always say to people is, like, before you really go to the next project, really think about marketing. Think about who is my audience, who I can sell.
Speaker 4:Honestly, if there's big actors or not, that's not the thing. Once you know that there's an audience out there, okay, start managing the story based on the audience that you know and then just put your heart in it. But don't disregard that aspect of marketing. But don't disregard that aspect of marketing. And I think that's why it's like every project that we have done. From the beginning I've been always picky with Lee of like, how can I market this? Who would watch this? Because just making movies for yourself or your family, if you want to stay in this business, that would be hard right. So that aspect I would encourage every producer to learn about marketing. And it's not even about distribution, it's more about marketing how can you make your movie and put it out there? That is with a great story, of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. We're in the thick of that I think that's something we've been learning is like distributors, for the most part, are going to put your movie places, but they're not going to get people in the theater seats or to go watch it on the platform. So marketing has to be done somewhere, whether you're working with a team or doing it yourself, like we do on indie projects a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes, such a great point. And distribution. I think a lot of new filmmakers come into it with the idea that a distributor picks up their film and that's it. They're going to take it, they're going to put it out in, you know, in the trades, everywhere they're going to. You know, put out this amazing trailer and they're going to work 24 seven to just like promote your film.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, unless you're Marvel, like a Marvel movie, that sort of effort's not going to happen. It's impossible for them. They don't have the bandwidth. In fact it's pretty much and I hate and I don't want to reduce it to this. But specifically on our level of film, which you know, I'm talking about independent films made for under 5 million, let's just put it in that category. Made for under $5 million, let's just put it in that category.
Speaker 2:You're really going to get a distributor that has a Rolodex, an index of a bunch of movies that they're taking out to all the film markets and they've got to come with volume and they're not going to prioritize your film. Even if your film is the biggest one with stars in it, it's not going to get that sort of attention. And even if you are prioritized, it's still not going to be the attention that you know you want. So to Kathy's point and your point, anna, like it's so important that come in with you, know, with your own strategy, with your own sense of marketing. Know with your own strategy, with your own sense of marketing.
Speaker 2:And yes, we we rally caps had the advantage of kathy being in the marketing world, having worked for the studios and everything, um, but coming in with those pieces in place and a game plan to bring to the distributor and really be extremely active, not dominating and not having delusional expectations, but coming to them with ideas like so we brought, you know, we brought resources to them when we, uh, when we got our distribution deal, we came with ideas, um, and we weren't relying on them to to hit a grand slam or pull miracles out of their pants, like that's really the mindset you should.
Speaker 2:It's you make the film and you finish it, don't just hand it off to the distributor. Distribution is probably where you should put most of your resources and energy on this level and I know that's crazy to say, because everyone you know who makes a film on this level feels like they've sacrificed their entire life and their, their, their, their wellbeing to get it made. But really, distribution is so important, especially now, because it's a game about getting attention. It's not anyone in the world can click one of our films and watch it in a matter of seconds, like it's accessible to everyone on Earth in a matter of seconds. It's about attention, and so that's the big game. That's the name of the game now.
Speaker 4:And I will recommend to any budget like, even if you have a thousand dollars budget, just put a hundred bucks or any kind of budget into marketing. That has to be in your budget and be smart about it on how to, how to do it. And there's a lot of cheap resources nowadays that you can literally put ads out there in Google ads and social media. Create the land, the landing pages and all that stuff to like really really promote your movie. You know, highly recommend everybody to have behind the scenes. Behind the scenes is going to be your major, major thing in marketing because he's like you're going to have what is happening, documenting the behind the scenes. Uh, amazing pictures when you are doing your movie. Uh, have a photo shoot like believe it or not. It's like sometimes people believe don't think about those things. Oh, I'm gonna take it from the movie.
Speaker 4:No, no, no just one sheet anything to help you market the movie um at the end. So just just think about that that's a.
Speaker 2:One of the big tips we learned on this one was you know, a lot of people don't take stills on set of their actors and they, when they get to distribution, they don't have a really refined looking poster because they don't have really good images of their actors. So they have to, you know, create one from scratch or they have to do a reshoot and the actors are all older. So, yeah, when you're on set, take your actors off to the side and get stills for for marketing, and and think about your one sheet, because that's what you're, and and think about your one sheet, because that's what you're. That's the first thing a lot of these distributors are seeing. Is that poster before your trailer, before anything else?
Speaker 2:So you've got to think about all these things and you know not to feel like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, because earlier I was giving you know the advice to make a film from your heart, and you should. But once you got that story in place, to Kathy's point, you've got to start knocking down the strategy of marketing and where it's going to find its audience. And you know, if you have a Christmas movie, then you know what the audience is and you know who you can approach and you know who you can approach and you can. You know how you can tweak the script to sort of fit certain platforms that put out Christmas movies. Because you want to put out, you might want to make the next, the newest, freshest Christmas movie idea that hasn't been done before and it's going to be the citizen Kane of Christmas movies.
Speaker 4:That's all great, but you should have at least an idea on a high platform that you're going to approach and and again, yeah, if, for example, in this movie, lee wrote the movie and when he gave it to me, I gave him not a creative, I gave him marketing notes. I said you would market it would be marketing if you can just tweak this. And he was little tweaks, he. I'm not one of the things, I'm not sacrificing his story, I just know that if you put some elements, hey, I know this. The other thing is that people don't realize is product placement is like okay, well, if you make this and make this tweak, like okay, well, if you make this and make this tweak, I can go and ask somebody to sponsor it, our movie, and voila, you get money or you get some kind of free stuff. So those kind of thinking. So you can write your movie and the movie that you want to make, but then go and talk to somebody that has a marketing experience, say, hey, how can we tweak and make this more markable?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, look, yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, I've been talking a lot, so you, you go for it fine.
Speaker 1:No, I love what you guys are both saying. The bts marketing in the production budget and the stills on set, um are all things that I've recently heard from distributors about, so I will just add my testimony to what you guys are saying and so that it's something people ask about and it is, it's valuable. And then the other thing you were saying was about sponsorship. I do want to ask about that because as you evolve, you know, from asking your uncle for $10,000 to make your first, you know out of pocket movie to having larger budgets, something we've started to learn is you have to piecemeal those budgets to reduce the equity finance portion of that budget as much as possible, because equity is the most expensive money you can get. And so you're mentioning things like product placement or even just sponsorship.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the mlb earlier. This seems like a good segue for me to just ask what did that look like on this film? How do you pursue those relationships? Because I've recently read an article from a guy who works on the brand side of like funding creative projects and he was very like this is how I would approach a brand, but don't do it because it's rude and like basically give up now.
Speaker 3:Like he give up now, like he was very pessimistic in his article, even though it was had valuable information. His his perspective was the brand approaches the filmmaker, not the other way around. We actually have been trying to figure out how to do sponsorship and product placement relationships unsuccessfully, so I'd love to learn how did that evolve for you guys?
Speaker 2:on this one, so the, so sorry. I the the brand approaches the film and not the other way around. Well, if that was, if that's the case, then we would have never gotten any sponsors for our movie. Uh, no, don't believe in that. I don't think you do either. Uh, yes, you definitely, especially because the movie can't be made without the sponsorship. You know that's part of the budget, so like you're coming to them to come on board.
Speaker 2:Um, I have a lot to say in this space. Kathy Knott knows a lot more about this, so I'm going to pass this off to her in a second. I'll just say for filmmakers, I think a lot of times they can be a little precious and with their story and they're like, well, it's a distraction. It's like you know a character is talking and also they drink a Coca-Cola and my argument. And you go and watch Netflix movies right now. You see it there. They're all over in your face. But you know what. You forget about it in a couple of seconds. But you know not in terms of like the sponsor. They get there, you know like their audience might go grab a Coke and that's what they want and that's all they need. But in terms of your story, people are not going to think about the Coca-Cola within your story after a couple seconds, let them be annoyed.
Speaker 2:You move on and you get your film made and, but you know, find a way to get it into your story, your script, without it compromising, but approaching sponsors and all of that stuff. That's definitely got to be done. Really, at the script stage you start having those conversations. It's really great. In our case, one of our biggest sponsors was Phonak. They're a hearing aid company. Obviously, one of our characters has a cochlear implant, recent surgery, and so it was a really good fit because it fit with the integrity of the story and that character is a very strong character and so you want to look for a really good combination and not as much random stuff.
Speaker 1:But let me just ask was that product placement, the shot right before the swim test when he puts it, that's that product placement, the shot right before the?
Speaker 4:swim test.
Speaker 1:There you go. That's the product placement, zero distraction. I just thought it was really interesting because I thought that's a nice detail that we see the kid take it out and put it. It just felt like the world building of one kid's got anxiety. This other kid's dealing with this part of his life where he he has to put these things in and out, and it helps, I think children watching a movie kind of that adds to the value of the film, in my opinion, because it helps these children realize like this kid can't swim with these in. There are people like this in the world. So when you meet one it's like, oh yeah, I kind of know about that and it's not this weird, like I'm going to treat him weirdly. You know, I don't know, for me it was nice, so I never for once was like, oh, what the like?
Speaker 2:you know hey buy this thing you know well that's a perfect example of and thank you for noticing that. I think it you, you can weave it into your store if you work with the brand and they, if you're, on, aligned with the integrity of what the story is, then you can, you can weave it seamlessly in. Um, it's not gonna always be the case, but in that case of you know, in in our situation, it was a perfect fit and, um, it could, you could serve each other. But it also is about working with the brand and being open-minded, right, right, like. So.
Speaker 2:That scene was not necessarily written with an emphasis on seeing what he was wearing, but we did want the audience to know that he needed a different device and a protection for the hearing aid to swim, and that is important to his character building. Uh, and so we worked with the brand to figure out a way that works for both sides. Um, but yeah, kathy, I don't know if you uh had anything to add in terms of the business side of it, but yeah, this is this is a very extensive uh topic actually mean we can do just one podcast about marketing and sponsors.
Speaker 4:But I feel that this is the way to make independent filmmaking. But it's how you approach the brands. Like, there's two different paths. One yes, you have to have connections. You have to have people that are sellers. There's agencies there out there that specialize in product placement. Basically, they are the ones that work with brands. They're agencies by themselves. They work with brands and basically the brand sometimes says, hey, you know what I need? I don't know, I need a movie where I can put my Toyota in there, and then the agencies start looking for those kinds of projects. So, having those connections in the agencies, with the agencies, it would be. It's amazing With sales people. Sales people are the ones that are always looking for projects or something that will help you to like hey, let me take this project and put it and take it to a brand.
Speaker 4:There's many different things of why they want to sponsor your movie. Number one we had Amy Smart and Judd Hurch, so that helped because they give the okay, this is legit, they have a budget. Also, it depends on the sponsorship. It's like okay, are you selling this per line. Like, how many lines do you have? Do you create packages of selling packages, like one package is like if your product will be on here, it would be this much If you have lines plus product, is this much? So you start creating marketing packages, basically sponsorship packages. The biggest sponsor we had was Fonec, but we had other sponsors where we're like just adding to a film, like, for example, it's like Hot Dog Stand, it's like, okay, we had this big brand. They knew that the movie was legit because we had two big actors, so they won the product there. But they didn't give us any kind of money. They were just product placement there. But doesn't matter, because that give that raises the product, um, the project, a little bit more than just having a hot uh, yeah, a hot, uh, hot dog stand. A simple hot dog stand, yeah, then a really good brand, exactly. So that that makes a big difference.
Speaker 4:What I would say for just starting projects do the simple things in your budget. You're going to have catering. You're going to have expenses in food. You're going to have expenses in makeup. You're going to have expenses, all that. You can approach people that literally for restaurants. You can approach restaurants for them to sponsor your food every single day and all they want probably would be just a shot of the outside of the restaurant or just simple a credit, or just when the poster is out there to put a sponsor by and they have look for makeup people that wants to like I don't know salons that wants to promote themselves. It's free marketing for them and you can actually like literally have a big audience. So when you approach these kind of things, you can start lowering your budget a lot.
Speaker 4:That's a great point you don't have to just think about getting money back, like, oh, I'm going to sell this package, I'm going to get money so I can do this. No, no, no, what in your budget? You can start reducing the budget and approach those people that is like, oh, you know what? They probably I don't know whoever makes cupcakes can. Actually, I have cupcakes in my film, you know, it's like that person would love it and a shot of the cupcakes and the picture of their brand, that's it what they want. So be creative in that aspect. But I feel that this is the best way to do it for independent filmmaking, because we don't have to return the money to do it for independent filmmaking, because we don't have to return the money.
Speaker 1:You guys didn't use a local salon to do the uh, the broken nose makeup because that was really good. Actually I was. It was almost too good. I was like, ah, this is like graphic, man, this kid's nose situation actually we hired somebody from vegas oh that was, but that one actually was a connection. So they did a good job yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially, yeah, like she came in and literally just did that for one day, but yeah, it was obviously worth the resources to like pull off, like how realistic it is. But going back a second. So this is a conversation Kathy and I have had for our next film, no-transcript. But the money that you don't have to make back is is is really helpful, it, it um certainly helps going to into into distribution if you're only now only looking to get singles and doubles out of it and not trying to get a grand slam because you think you have to make all this money back um. So I I think what I'm trying to say is that, like this could be, we're looking at it as that's the future of micro budget filmmaking is trying to get it fully sponsored. The riches are in the niches. Try to, even if a brand it like funds your entire movie and let's say, like you know, I don't know it's a construction company, you can make your entire movie around that construction company. The main character has that. You know, like their job is, you know they're a construction worker, an architect or something like that, and the brand finances the whole movie. Right, if you're making a really small, you know, that's what we would try to propose and not raise private equity, which we did both of. We've had private equity and sponsorship big chunks, but it still is going to be a mountain to climb and we have stars and all of these things that we did right.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying our movie is perfect by any means. It is what it is. It's got flaws. But the actual making of it we feel like we checked a lot of boxes. There was a ton of set, sweat equity, the movie production value most people believe is maybe two, three times the amount that we actually spent. But that was on the backs of so much effort put on by main people that took back end. So we did all the things right and we're still looking at a really big uphill battle just to make our money back. So that's just the reality of it. So yeah, it's not just about consolidizing the budget, it's about if you can get sponsorship and not have to make the money back, that's great. If you can get sponsorship and not have to make the money back, that's great.
Speaker 2:And one last real quick point is I think even if you're making a movie for $1,000 or $5,000, I think a lot of people go into it and they're just like. They just start and they just start putting money into it and they figure it out and at the end of the day, they spent they think they spent more than they wanted to, or they didn't spend money in the right areas and they run out of money. Do a budget. Do you know consult with a line producer, who who is, or if you have experience with budgets? It's such an important thing Like get a program you can get free trials. Important thing Like get a program you can get free trials.
Speaker 2:Look at the line items and look at the reality of it. Like if you have all of your friends working for you and all the actors are putting it on the back end and they're not, that's all great, you're saving money, but you want to feed your crew and cast right. Like you know finding a way to get decent food, whether by sponsorship or whatever. Like you know other other equipment, do you really need certain things or can you shoot it a different way where you don't need that? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Like that Fisher dolly that's just going to be sitting there after the one you know five minutes that you used for that one shot and then it's sitting there, like that's happened to me, like my DP wanted a Fisher dolly for this great dolly shot, and if that shot looks great it does, it's a great piece of equipment. But then it sat there for the rest of the day because we had to make our day. We didn't have time to to to, you know, develop shot design for these, you know. You know develop shot design for these, you know, for the Fisher Dolly, and so, yeah, it's those kinds of things like really budgeted out, and so you can see it from a bird's eye view where you're going to spend your money. Because even at a low level, I see people wasting so much money on nonsense and none of it goes on screen.
Speaker 4:One thing that I wanted to add. There is the contingency. No, nobody. What is contingency? Contingency is the money that you just save in case of something happens, and people never think about this and then at the end, and then you do all your budget and all that stuff and then you're like, oh, I run out of money, like no, no, no.
Speaker 4:One of the things I'm going to tell you is that put some kind of money out there. And my second advice please, please, please, try to find a lawyer. Don't try to do a contract with AI. It's insane what happens your best friend like is like from my whole career, that is what. I'm already an expert reading contracts because I had to learn so much of like, um, just an advice, or even just see a sponsor of a lawyer. They can't do that. You know like, hey, can you look at this, can you sponsor my movie and can you help me? And the contracts are feeling independent. Independence is not that big, but I will always advise contingency on a budget, marketing budget, and then something that is legal aspects, because when you go into distribution, you're going to have a lot of legal aspects and there's things that you were not counting on and that you need somebody outside of you to see if this is convenient for you or not.
Speaker 1:That's really great advice. We actually are, um have yet to release an already recorded podcast episode with Peter Salsich, who's a entertainment lawyer, who who goes into working that into your budget, kind of stuff. So check that episode out, if, if that's of interest, which it should be, to Catherine's point. So I appreciate you mentioning some of those things that are. We all know people look over them, because at least Anne and I have done that looking over Guilty.
Speaker 1:You guys. This is so awesome. I have a couple other things before we wrap up. I wanted to ask. You mentioned at the beginning about having a manager, so talk to me about um. Managers aren't agents necessarily, but do you have an agent? Do you have a manager?
Speaker 3:Is this for writing or directing?
Speaker 1:Writing, directing, and has that been valuable for you in your career? Or do you feel like, I don't know, like for someone just starting, versus someone kind of in it a little bit?
Speaker 3:At what point do you need a manager? Do you need a manager? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So I have a manager for writing and directing really all things, but those are the two positions that he's focused on hustling to get work for me. His name's James Smith from Aaron Kogan management, and I will start with saying that again. It's another situation where I think people get into and they're like, oh, I have a manager, he's going to go get me on an episode of, I don't know, stranger Things or something like that, right, I don't know why that's the next thing.
Speaker 2:I'm just trying to think of the biggest thing in Hollywood, right Like that's where people's minds are at Like oh, I can direct an episode of that because, you know, I don't know, I love the Goonies, so I can do that.
Speaker 1:That's the perfect fit. Yeah, Right.
Speaker 2:So I'm entitled to that. No, no, no, no and so, but just the idea that, like they're going to run around and hustle and they and and they do, but the reality of trying to get you on a project or get you work, um, it's the same thing like with a distributor, it's it's a partnership at the beginning. Now, once you, you hit it big, it's a different story. Right then you're kind of like fielding. You might be fielding offers at that point, but we're talking that's like less than one percent of what people are dealing with. Like you're going to be more in that middle range where you have some stuff to show, but you're working with them to try to find some sort of branding for yourself.
Speaker 2:If you will, my right at this point, my biggest relationship with him is us just dissecting scripts, reading scripts, you know, starting a dialogue on ideas, and it's a support system too. Like you know, it's I. I find the script that I like, that someone else wrote, or I have an idea, I can bounce it off of him. He's very personable that way and that's that's where the value is, is having another partner that's helping you, but you got to help him to help you, so or help her to help you, and so that's you know. Go into it with the right mindset that you're building something together and then it's going to take off. When it takes off, but they're not. Their job is not to go out and get stuff for you, because it's just not realistic. The best they can do is probably get you some meetings and but you got to build your own career and they're there to assist you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think that, as we've been going down this road, that's something I've been feeling which is just this like sometimes I get this alone feeling, even though we do this together, even for two people. Film is a big machine. It's big, and sometimes you just need to bring partners on board, and sometimes we're. It's a balance between being um, independent and thrifty and wise, but then, on the flip side, being um, between being independent and thrifty and wise but then on the flip side, being sort of abundantly minded and collaborative and trusting, bringing people into that circle, because when you find the right people, they can add so much value.
Speaker 1:So I love that you're saying like look, this is just someone, so that you're not doing this alone all the time, like you have someone to talk to about scripts or you might have someone to help you manage meetings. That alone is what that would be very valuable. So I can, I can see that value. I appreciate that perspective.
Speaker 3:Financially, is it like a, like an agent, where they take a percentage, or is it something that you pay him to help you? A?
Speaker 2:certain amount. Yeah, depends on whatever situation that you work out with your uh, you know, with your rep, but, like with us, it's, it is a percentage, but it's essentially if he lands a project, yeah, or you know, but it's, it's, it's up for debate because he helped out with getting us resources for rally caps and so it's sort of this unofficial hey, if we do well with rally caps, we'll take care of you, that kind of thing. But for the most part he's contracted to get percentages of work that he finds for me. But it's loose, you know, it's, it's it, it.
Speaker 2:It really depends on the situation and there's a matter of trust between us that, um, you know that, that, that we know that doesn't have to be like written in the law, um, but but yeah, man, film is the probably the most, probably the most collaborative art form, right, like events, that those kind of things, like it takes a village, and so if you, you have to really bring in people into the fold, that you trust. I know we're also running out of time too and I was hoping that we touch on a little bit on, um, uh, great questions, by the way. But yeah, kathy, and I definitely would love to talk to them about SAG, if, if, there's time if there's time after your question.
Speaker 2:that's a big one. I'm just thinking about like the biggest pitfall that we ran into with this project. Um, uh, and I don't I don't know if we want to jump into it now or so I know that maybe a lot of your audience is doing micro project, micro, micro budget projects, but attaching a star or attaching a star name, even for these small projects, now you might get, uh, you know, a famous person to read your script and be in it and that's tremendous. And that's basically what happened to us. Like I had a producer friend, she, that I brought the script to and she had for the mom and pop roles. She was like, oh, I know these people, I'm going to bring it to them, mom and pop roles. She was like, oh, I know these people, I'm going to bring it to them. It didn't ultimately work out, but she came back to me and she said make a wish list. I went to IMDB. The top of the list was Judd Hirsch and Amy Smart. This was also I know that we're not getting A-lister, a-lister, a-lister, but this was the top of my priority list based on the resources that I think we could get um, and also great fit for the roles and luckily we got the script to their manager, made the offer and they both accepted. And so we're talking about judd hirsch, who's an academy award nominee um, he was working on the spielberg film a week after rally caps. Amy smart is a legend in her own right and that's all great.
Speaker 2:And I think that people think, oh, you make the offer, the agent takes it to them. And this is after we raised the money already. So we had them. You have to have the money in place to actually offer them. Like, if you just come, if you're just trying to like get someone attached, without money, it's not going to happen unless that actor is like your best friend and and then they'll attach themselves and allow you to use their name to raise money. But you can't do that age. Yeah, you're going to run into a wall if you're just trying to uh, cold email the agent. They're just going to ask you how much you're offering and what are the dates, and then you have to put that money in escrow and prove that you have it.
Speaker 2:So we did have that money and we did offer it to them and we thought we were golden or like okay, we got, we got these actors and and essentially that was true.
Speaker 2:But the biggest pitfall that we ran into was not registering the movie with screen actors guild and they will have the power to stop your film. Yeah, don't have your you know what together. And at that point Kathy was not on the project, that she was not planning to produce this, but she had to come on board at that point and thank God and we also had we got a line producer that they knew what they were doing and they pulled it all together. But we we had basically made the offer with the budget and all the our entire budget went to them and we didn't think about registering this, the movie, with Screen Actors Guild. And we came within like a week of of shooting the movie and they were like this is not going to be a go project and what that means is like all that money you put into escrow for the actors, like that's going to go to them and they can take that money if they want, whether you get your project or not.
Speaker 4:So you have to be depending on the contract. But yes, yeah, so is it like a?
Speaker 1:was it like a pay or play deal, kind of thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're only going to get pretty much player pay.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, that's one, that's pretty much one of the challenges that you're going to face with talent. That, unfortunately, is business for them. It's not like oh, I love your project.
Speaker 2:For their representatives.
Speaker 4:For the representative, because the actors are completely different. No, no no, they're yeah, but yes, I mean and and one thing that I want to emphasize a lot when you deal with SAG, it's so much paperwork Like it's insane paperwork that literally I mean they've asked months in advance to start doing the paperwork.
Speaker 2:Six to eight weeks is when you should start the paperwork for SAG. Wow, we started us, we, and we got lucky. So I don't want to put this out there. Like you know, you can come in the 11th hour and it'll happen Like, don't live on that because you'll lose everything. But we started like two weeks ahead and we we lucked out. But we also did have our paperwork and for the most part, together too. We got people to sign contracts and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But yes, six to eight weeks out is when you should start registering with Screen Actors Guild and also be prepared to pay what they call a bond, which don't quote me on this, because this is not exactly how it works. You'd have to talk to a SAG affiliate, but it's. It's essentially works like a deposit, where they take a portion of your budget to make sure that their actors don't get screwed over, cause you could, like promise the world to their actors, and this is what happened in the past and why there's guilds in the first place. You know filmmakers and producers will promise something to the actor and they never get paid. So that that bond, that deposit, is a big chunk of your budget and you have to pay that.
Speaker 3:you have to put it into escrow right away and that's on top of what you've already put in the escrow for the actor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so in our case, right? So I don't want to give you the exact numbers that we gave, but I'm just going to give an arbitrary number just for the sake of this conversation, all right. So let's say you, your budget is one hundred thousand dollars, yeah, and you've got a major star, that's like I want to be in it. I, I'm not going to do it for less than 75 000. I just can't. My agents won't let me do it, right, so that 75 000 goes into escrow, right, and that is gone, and so, like this is sort of what we were dealing with. We're like, oh, we got the money to pay them, we're good. But once that money went and like we have 25 000 left over and sag is like looking at our budget and they're like, okay, well, our bond is 50 000 for for this movie. Right again, these are not numbers that would actually work out the way.
Speaker 4:Again, I'm just giving you like a simplified yeah yeah, yeah, but just remember that as soon as, as soon as you have sag actors, everybody else becomes sag even if they're not in your past what if it's a right?
Speaker 1:to work state does that make a difference?
Speaker 3:because then technically you can work on a sag production. If you're non-union, does that mean you still?
Speaker 4:yes, you can, but you have a limited amount of people that you can bring to a project.
Speaker 2:But a lot of our kids were not SAG and they have to pay them SAG minimum and that's everyone who has a speaking line, even if it's like someone in the crowd that's like, yeah, go, team right, or hey, good job, or like just hey, right, if they're speaking something, they are automatically sag, automatically sag, um, so yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, going back to what I was saying, like you know, we, you know 25 000 left in the budget and sag asked you know, for this you have to put that in escrow, you have to to start raising money, and that's what happened with us. We were like, oh, my goodness, but it was much more than that, and so we were in this hole where we had to, like, raise the money just to get it shot and we shot out our stars in a couple of days and then we had to raise money to make the rest of the film. So everything you see with judd and amy, we shot in like a three-day span. Um, we consolidated to just the house scenes, but it still is 27 pages of script in three days, which is a lot yeah, that blows my flipping mind.
Speaker 1:You guys got 27, 27 pages of script in three days.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we were not. We were not like a running gunning type where it's just, like you know, we're running around outside with just one camera and we can just use natural lighting. It was all indoors. You're dealing with two stars that would and let me just make it clear, they're phenomenal Both Amy and Judd and their attitudes were great um, literally never really an issue at all. They were. They knew the kind of project we were making and they were just there to compliment, so we got extremely lucky.
Speaker 2:That being said, you can't just, like you know, throw juddd Hirsch on set and start rolling, and it's not like he's not your brother or your uncle who agreed to be in the film. You can kind of like, use them as a pawn piece and no actor, even if they are your uncle and brother. You should not treat them like a pawn piece. But there's not. You know they need to have, like their honey you know what we call honey wagons, which are just their trailers and all of that stuff. Like, they need, you know, they need time, they need to work with them, they need to get into their roles and so, yeah, it was crazy, very crazy, but the reason we're talking about it now is to help people be prepared.
Speaker 2:Um, if you are prepared and there's a lot of like, especially with directors, that they show up on set and they're super nervous and they're like you know, there's, uh, a lot of anxiety and that's going to happen anyway. But if you come prepared, there's really nothing to worry about. You should be able to go out there and play in your sandbox, watch everything. But you've got to do the work beforehand to set the stage, um, because if not, you're putting your, you're throwing yourself out through the wolves and that is where I feel that bring, building a team is so important.
Speaker 4:Like everybody wants to be the director, the producer, the writer, the blah, blah, like you know what. Uh, I came on board because I saw that I wanted lee to be the creative. I didn't want him to deal with paperwork, I didn't want him to be just he, although he's a producer in the film, I didn't want him to be a producer hat like no, I mean, bring people that you trust, that like literally delegate. The learning how to delegate is important, but at the same time, I know it's kind of scary because you need to build a team that you trust and that is the biggest challenge in this industry Building a team that you can literally say I trust you.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of open communication, there's no egos and unfortunately we're in a field, in an industry, where egos are everywhere and dealing with personalities. Learning how to deal with personalities as a producer, that is your job. You need to. Sometimes you're going to be a therapist, sometimes you're going to be a mom, sometimes you're going to be the I don't know makeup person. Like you know, it's like you will have to be there for people that sometimes you're like I was not expecting to be that. But as a producer, unfortunately, we need to learn how to deal with personalities and when.
Speaker 4:Sometimes you have the opportunity to build your team which is good for film independent, but when we started doing these kind of projects, sometimes you bring people on board that you were not meant to to bring, and there's personalities that you need to learn how to deal with and sometimes it's not your best friend and you're not going to be happy about it, and sometimes you're going to be a bad cop because you have to say no to everything and they're going to yell at you.
Speaker 4:So it's learning as a producer, building that skill of communication with different kinds of personalities, and also learning that it's not your fault, learning that this is business, not taking it so personal like building a thick skin. Basically and I always recommend open communication Try to be as honest and say, hey, can we talk about this? And if there's a lot of roughness, just like, cool down and just come back when you guys can. But that is the biggest thing that I would recommend everybody Just make sure that if you have a small team, build something you love, speak with people, that that empowers you not to put you down and if you can't build a team, and it's just that it happened learn how to, to learn with um, deal with personalities yeah, yeah, I will say too as a on the creative end.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think the the optics of this business is and I will call it a business because it is a freaking business show business Business is two more syllables or another syllable than show, so it's more business than it is showtime. The optics are people look at, you know, filmmakers as artists, right, that they're just like having fun, they're on set and, like you know, wearing some hippie gown and just being creative. Well, look, let me tell you this like and you guys know it's like there is creativity. A lot of that is involved, but the stream of consciousness should be for your writing. A lot of that is involved, but the stream of consciousness should be for your writing.
Speaker 2:But 99% of making a film is business and logistics. Even when you're doing something that's entirely small, because you're figuring out what the location is, you're figuring out what time the actors have to come. So to Kathy's point definitely build a team that focuses on this and understand that this is. You know, I don't care what your judgmental uncle or aunt are saying about your career. You are doing as much business in this art form than they're doing in their business, probably more right, because you are organizing a collective and you have to be prepared and you have to have a team and you have to have people that are on top of their stuff. And, yes, the creative is an aspect of it and that's what you're going to see on screen, but to get that stuff on screen is, it's mostly business. So start learning that aspect as soon as you can.
Speaker 3:We're essentially serial entrepreneurs because you're starting, with each movie, a new business from the ground up you know.
Speaker 1:So it's just non-stop all product and brand and sales and distribution.
Speaker 3:It's so much mention managing the ones you already started are everything one startup company after an x right?
Speaker 2:yeah, it is yeah yeah it's wild.
Speaker 1:Well, you guys, this has, like I got kind of quiet there because I just felt like I was learning so much.
Speaker 1:You guys have a great depth of knowledge and experience and, honestly, I'm just super grateful for your transparency and getting into some of the nitty gritty.
Speaker 1:This it's like a nitty gritty that people don't want to get into for some reason or another, but especially as independent artists don't want to get into for some reason or another, but especially as independent artists, being that transparent with each other I think is going to help us to survive in what is becoming the new movie industry, which is this intense democratization which I feel like is going to lead to the downfall of the way things people are used to doing things.
Speaker 1:It really is the downfall of the way things people are used to doing things. It really is the downfall of what people expect. We hear old timers telling us you know, just do X, y and Z, and then people give you a check and then you make this movie and then it goes out and then this is the person who takes it away for you and it's like well, actually, because we have the luxury of needing very few people's permission to make movies. Now it comes with this massive responsibility of having to do all the jobs that you guys went into detail on in this episode, and so getting into the gritty details of how to do those jobs is essential, so I really am just grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you so much. You've been so generous with your time and your knowledge and I just want to finish by asking where can we send people to see your work and what's next on the horizon?
Speaker 2:the rally caps is on peacock, so just go there and if you don't have, if you, obviously, if you have peacock, you can watch it for free. Uh, if you don't, you can still watch it for free. Get a free trial and watch on that. We're really, we're direct everybody and for some reason you can't. It is on Apple TV and Amazon and for rent. But I would guess, go to Peacock, go to Peacock yeah, but for to contact us it's crystalrockentertainmentcom.
Speaker 4:okay.
Speaker 3:so crystalrockentertainmentcom okay we'll put that in the show notes and get the spelling for you, peacock and Crystal Rock Entertainment dot com. Go check out Rally Caps.
Speaker 1:Check out Rally Caps. Some great performances. I wish we could go more into detail and to cast honestly than we did, but I will just say that not just your two names, Judd and Amy, which were great, the whole cast. I was really impressed by the work that had to have gone in to cast that many people and that many children. So just a lot to be proud of you guys. So thanks so much for being on the show and thanks for making Rally Camps.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you for your time and yes, and if you have any questions, we're here for you guys. I mean, the idea is to help the community somehow somewhere too late, you know, um, and it's vice versa we learn from you guys, you learn from us. It's not just that because we made it uh, we made more movies than you guys. You guys have also your knowledge that probably sometimes we can't like talk about it and say like, oh, I learned from that, you know, so she's learning from each other.
Speaker 2:It's a community and, uh, we thank you guys, uh, for your contribution, for getting this knowledge out there. Um, because it's super important, because there's a really weird dichotomy going on with filmmakers right now, where it's like I feel like what you just said a second ago, ken, about how accessible and, you know, not easy it is to make, but it's available everything that we need to make a film. But it's never been harder, right, like than 10, 15 years ago when you really needed to, even 20 years ago, like more. So you needed a lot of resources to get a movie made, you had to shoot on film or whatever it was. It's accessible, but I still think filmmakers come with the mentality of like the 1995 Sundance Film Festival method, where you're going to make your big film, it's going to get picked up by some huge company, you're going to get a three picture deal, and it's so weird because that, like that, is gone.
Speaker 2:Like I don't even know. I guess Sundance still has some big payouts. But that's what everyone's filmmaker dream is Like. They go to film school and I don't know what they're teaching there, but like, but it's. It's very strange, but it's a completely new world. And you know, kathy and I are, you know we usually watch the Academy Awards. We actually didn't watch them this year. Like I haven't watched any of the big films, and that's not to say that like that's not still big and epic. It's just how we're consuming. Content is completely different. Movies are different than they were 15 years ago. And so, yeah, get with the program. Right, there's a lot more opportunities.
Speaker 2:It's just a lot different than it was. So you got to get over this idea of being like the next Tarantino and stuff, because Tarantino did it in a different era. So, no, thank you, you guys, and I also congratulate you guys on your success at science. It was so nice to to connect and hey, like kathy said, anytime we're here for you guys would love to do it again.