{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":1.29,"endTime":3.54,"body":"Welcome to the Bryden Wood Podcast."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":4.23,"endTime":8.01,"body":"Bryden Wood is a global"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":4.23,"endTime":8.01,"body":"strategy and design consultancy."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":8.58,"endTime":15.06,"body":"We are inventive thinkers, designers,"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":8.58,"endTime":15.06,"body":"engineers, and technical experts."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":15.87,"endTime":20.37,"body":"We integrate creativity and deep"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":15.87,"endTime":20.37,"body":"experience to resolve complex"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":20.37,"endTime":23.82,"body":"challenges and realize a better world."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":24.39,"endTime":26.7,"body":"Find us at brydenwood.com"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":27.945,"endTime":31.965,"body":"okay, so we're, we're going"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":27.945,"endTime":31.965,"body":"to kick off by talking about the, uh,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":32.714,"endTime":40.545,"body":"very recent power outages in, uh, Spain"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":32.714,"endTime":40.545,"body":"and, uh, and Portugal, and what that"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":40.545,"endTime":46.035,"body":"tells us about the, the grid, uh, and"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":40.545,"endTime":46.035,"body":"the reliability of energy supplies"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":46.065,"endTime":51.015,"body":"and, uh, and the implications to the"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":46.065,"endTime":51.015,"body":"energy market, developing energy market."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":51.105,"endTime":56.325,"body":"So, what, Martin, what are your, uh,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":51.105,"endTime":56.325,"body":"what are your thoughts about that?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":57.0,"endTime":58.89,"body":"Well, of course"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":57.0,"endTime":58.89,"body":"we dunno that much yet."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":58.98,"endTime":62.37,"body":"So there's any, some stripping"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":58.98,"endTime":62.37,"body":"through of some of the reasons for it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":62.52,"endTime":67.11,"body":"Uh, but uh, what it does highlight is how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":62.52,"endTime":67.11,"body":"little we know and, and the big concern"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":67.11,"endTime":68.58,"body":"is how much does anybody else know?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":68.58,"endTime":73.26,"body":"So is there any great, um, mastermind"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":68.58,"endTime":73.26,"body":"behind the global grid systems"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":73.26,"endTime":76.83,"body":"or is in fact the grid system"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":73.26,"endTime":76.83,"body":"become quite so chaotic system?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":76.83,"endTime":78.75,"body":"Or is it in fact a well understood system?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":78.75,"endTime":79.38,"body":"We don't know that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":79.38,"endTime":84.48,"body":"And some of that's kind of coming through"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":79.38,"endTime":84.48,"body":"now because we're learning that what we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":84.48,"endTime":86.01,"body":"all thought was probably a cyber attack."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":86.895,"endTime":89.685,"body":"Um, that was kind of my initial thought."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":89.865,"endTime":91.815,"body":"I guess it must've been many"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":89.865,"endTime":91.815,"body":"people's initial thought."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":91.815,"endTime":91.905,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":92.145,"endTime":96.585,"body":"Actively seems to be, if we believe"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":92.145,"endTime":96.585,"body":"what we hear again, but it's something"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":96.585,"endTime":99.164,"body":"to do with the lack of inertia in the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":96.585,"endTime":99.164,"body":"system, which is coming from the fact"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":99.164,"endTime":102.435,"body":"that we've got so many more renewables"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":99.164,"endTime":102.435,"body":"in the grid, and particularly in Spain,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":102.435,"endTime":104.235,"body":"obviously, which is heavily solar."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":105.134,"endTime":111.255,"body":"Uh, and that's that lack of inertia, which"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":105.134,"endTime":111.255,"body":"kind of really means spinning things."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":111.854,"endTime":113.865,"body":"It really is like inertia like"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":111.854,"endTime":113.865,"body":"that because it's kind of like"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":113.865,"endTime":118.785,"body":"the turbines that's spinning gas"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":113.865,"endTime":118.785,"body":"turbine or steam turbine, and they"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":118.785,"endTime":120.824,"body":"actually create that kind of inertia."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":120.824,"endTime":122.985,"body":"Uh, in other words, the stored"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":120.824,"endTime":122.985,"body":"energy that, that allow people to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":122.985,"endTime":124.485,"body":"get through these kind of incidents."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":124.545,"endTime":126.854,"body":"Um, one thing I thought was"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":124.545,"endTime":126.854,"body":"actually quite impressive is how."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":127.425,"endTime":128.535,"body":"The grid came back on."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":129.465,"endTime":132.735,"body":"Mm. So let's, so therefore that does give"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":129.465,"endTime":132.735,"body":"you some confidence in the underlying"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":132.735,"endTime":136.965,"body":"knowledge of the, uh, the speed and pace,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":132.735,"endTime":136.965,"body":"which, which was, was put back in place."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":136.965,"endTime":139.485,"body":"But obviously it's super fundamental"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":136.965,"endTime":139.485,"body":"as to why it went down in the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":139.485,"endTime":140.715,"body":"first place and what it tells us,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":142.095,"endTime":145.035,"body":"I guess, I guess grids"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":142.095,"endTime":145.035,"body":"were started off being quite simple"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":146.025,"endTime":148.125,"body":"things when they were first created."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":149.34,"endTime":153.42,"body":"I think the, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":149.34,"endTime":153.42,"body":"the first thing is that it just shows"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":153.45,"endTime":159.815,"body":"how reliant we are now on electricity in"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":153.45,"endTime":159.815,"body":"a way that we weren't 20, 30 years ago."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":159.815,"endTime":160.175,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":160.635,"endTime":160.855,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":161.115,"endTime":166.575,"body":"For transport, you know, communications,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":161.115,"endTime":166.575,"body":"hospitals, you know, electricity is so"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":166.935,"endTime":173.745,"body":"vital to life now in our society, and as"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":166.935,"endTime":173.745,"body":"electrification continues, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":173.745,"endTime":176.325,"body":"going to, uh, that's gonna intensify."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":176.325,"endTime":178.34,"body":"So it's a bit of a wake"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":176.325,"endTime":178.34,"body":"up call as, yeah, I guess"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":178.34,"endTime":178.46,"body":"so."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":178.46,"endTime":179.34,"body":"But then absolutely."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":179.34,"endTime":182.865,"body":"But that's, that's, uh, one of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":179.34,"endTime":182.865,"body":"the things that, uh, that sort of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":182.865,"endTime":184.485,"body":"brings to light is like, how much."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":184.86,"endTime":186.93,"body":"Do we actually rely"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":184.86,"endTime":186.93,"body":"completely on the grid?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":187.59,"endTime":191.04,"body":"Do we have a hundred percent reliance"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":187.59,"endTime":191.04,"body":"on the grid or, well, we, we don't,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":191.04,"endTime":193.65,"body":"obviously at the moment, because we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":191.04,"endTime":193.65,"body":"have other systems and other power"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":193.65,"endTime":196.86,"body":"systems are outside the grid, but the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":193.65,"endTime":196.86,"body":"question is, what is the proportionality"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":196.86,"endTime":200.55,"body":"of on grid and off grid, and how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":196.86,"endTime":200.55,"body":"diversified should that be and how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":200.55,"endTime":201.75,"body":"centralized that should that be?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":201.75,"endTime":205.185,"body":"That's a sort of debate and,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":201.75,"endTime":205.185,"body":"uh, whilst is not totally in."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":205.62,"endTime":207.15,"body":"No one's totally in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":205.62,"endTime":207.15,"body":"control of that debate."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":207.72,"endTime":211.89,"body":"You certainly should, uh, try"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":207.72,"endTime":211.89,"body":"to lead the, the debate on that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":211.89,"endTime":216.15,"body":"So how many of the big energy sources"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":211.89,"endTime":216.15,"body":"that are growing with some of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":216.15,"endTime":221.28,"body":"new technologies, for example, ai, AI"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":216.15,"endTime":221.28,"body":"data centers, you've got great demand."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":221.28,"endTime":223.95,"body":"Some of these AI data centers"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":221.28,"endTime":223.95,"body":"are looking to absorb, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":224.64,"endTime":227.34,"body":"uh, gigawatt power, um, which is"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":227.49,"endTime":228.24,"body":"a large town,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":228.24,"endTime":228.87,"body":"which is Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":229.23,"endTime":230.01,"body":"It's, it's crazy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":230.01,"endTime":233.49,"body":"And, and, and we're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":230.01,"endTime":233.49,"body":"involved in, in, in, uh."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":234.48,"endTime":238.26,"body":"This deployment and technology, and that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":234.48,"endTime":238.26,"body":"kind of one of the reasons that we're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":238.26,"endTime":242.94,"body":"so fascinated by, um, the power sources,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":238.26,"endTime":242.94,"body":"is that actually a lot of the industries"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":242.94,"endTime":247.32,"body":"that we're working in are, are, are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":242.94,"endTime":247.32,"body":"actually increasing the demand for power,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":247.32,"endTime":249.0,"body":"increasing the demand for reliable power."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":249.48,"endTime":253.98,"body":"And, uh, they're doing it, they're doing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":249.48,"endTime":253.98,"body":"so for generally speaking good reasons."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":254.43,"endTime":257.31,"body":"But the question is, what effect"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":254.43,"endTime":257.31,"body":"are they gonna have on the, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":257.31,"endTime":259.2,"body":"existing, uh, infrastructure?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":259.74,"endTime":264.75,"body":"And also, you know, the problem"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":259.74,"endTime":264.75,"body":"generally speaking is that the, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":264.75,"endTime":269.61,"body":"way that we've allowed things to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":264.75,"endTime":269.61,"body":"evolve historically is by the market,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":269.7,"endTime":274.23,"body":"the demand of the marketplace, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":269.7,"endTime":274.23,"body":"by some forms of, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":274.23,"endTime":277.35,"body":"mixture of market and central planning"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":274.23,"endTime":277.35,"body":"when it comes to power distribution."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":277.35,"endTime":277.86,"body":"But that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":278.12,"endTime":281.659,"body":"The speed of pace of change and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":278.12,"endTime":281.659,"body":"the speed of, um, increased, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":281.69,"endTime":285.17,"body":"demand for energy is just sort of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":281.69,"endTime":285.17,"body":"you know that word unprecedented?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":285.195,"endTime":285.615,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":285.695,"endTime":291.02,"body":"And it is unprecedented and it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":285.695,"endTime":291.02,"body":"happening in so many multiple"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":291.02,"endTime":292.31,"body":"industries where the demand mean."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":292.31,"endTime":296.9,"body":"Just look at the electrification of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":292.31,"endTime":296.9,"body":"of cars and electrification of cars."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":296.9,"endTime":299.06,"body":"Suddenly massive extra"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":296.9,"endTime":299.06,"body":"demand of power, one"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":299.06,"endTime":300.469,"body":"in five in the world."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":300.469,"endTime":302.9,"body":"Now apparently electric, which is."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":303.03,"endTime":303.21,"body":"And this,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":304.349,"endTime":306.809,"body":"this opens up,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":304.349,"endTime":306.809,"body":"you know, opportunities as, as,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":306.809,"endTime":308.159,"body":"as well as threats of course."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":308.159,"endTime":312.78,"body":"And the, the, um, you know, every"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":308.159,"endTime":312.78,"body":"car is a potential energy storage"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":312.78,"endTime":316.44,"body":"system and there's been a lot"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":312.78,"endTime":316.44,"body":"of talk about utilizing that."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":316.5,"endTime":320.729,"body":"I think there are some schemes, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":316.5,"endTime":320.729,"body":"available now, uh, where you can"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":320.729,"endTime":326.07,"body":"plug a car into the grid and that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":320.729,"endTime":326.07,"body":"that storage can be used, but the as"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":326.13,"endTime":330.84,"body":"demand, uh, demand is added to the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":326.13,"endTime":330.84,"body":"grid and supply is added to the grid."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":331.289,"endTime":332.07,"body":"The, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":332.715,"endTime":336.435,"body":"Um, you know, how is that process managed?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":336.495,"endTime":340.065,"body":"If even if that's even the right"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":336.495,"endTime":340.065,"body":"word, you know, who, who understands"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":340.065,"endTime":342.015,"body":"how the system is changing."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":342.465,"endTime":346.215,"body":"Um, it, it's, um, it's a"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":342.465,"endTime":346.215,"body":"huge challenge, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":346.275,"endTime":346.515,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":346.935,"endTime":349.575,"body":"I, um, I guess one of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":346.935,"endTime":349.575,"body":"the things we all want to know as the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":349.575,"endTime":354.765,"body":"general public is, is, is this system"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":349.575,"endTime":354.765,"body":"reaching point of chaos effectively,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":354.765,"endTime":358.545,"body":"or is it in fact a, a managed,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":354.765,"endTime":358.545,"body":"understood, and carefully modeled system?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":358.905,"endTime":359.175,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":359.5,"endTime":361.18,"body":"I think neither of those are true."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":361.24,"endTime":363.22,"body":"It's somewhere in between,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":361.24,"endTime":363.22,"body":"but somewhere in between."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":363.22,"endTime":365.92,"body":"Understanding that somewhere in between"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":363.22,"endTime":365.92,"body":"is pretty, pretty, pretty important."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":366.31,"endTime":369.55,"body":"One of the main reasons for me is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":366.31,"endTime":369.55,"body":"it's so important apart from keeping"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":369.55,"endTime":370.93,"body":"the lights on, which is clear."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":371.56,"endTime":372.04,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":372.45,"endTime":376.2,"body":"Is that, uh, if you're ever gonna"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":372.45,"endTime":376.2,"body":"invest in and, and, and you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":376.2,"endTime":379.619,"body":"decarbonize the grid in the right manner"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":376.2,"endTime":379.619,"body":"and at the quickest possible pace."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":380.19,"endTime":383.25,"body":"And the pace, by the way, is something"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":380.19,"endTime":383.25,"body":"we just can't leave to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":383.25,"endTime":384.63,"body":"market forces in a typical way."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":384.63,"endTime":385.469,"body":"We just can't do that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":385.469,"endTime":386.94,"body":"It's never gonna be quick enough."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":387.125,"endTime":387.924,"body":"Absolutely never gonna be good enough."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":388.61,"endTime":394.28,"body":"If we are going to do that, then we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":388.61,"endTime":394.28,"body":"need to get, um, some better sense of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":394.28,"endTime":398.06,"body":"how to understand and model the grid"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":394.28,"endTime":398.06,"body":"and better sense of how much power"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":398.06,"endTime":399.32,"body":"we want to actually put on the grid."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":399.32,"endTime":400.31,"body":"And we wanna leave locally."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":400.31,"endTime":403.88,"body":"So do we service these high demands"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":400.31,"endTime":403.88,"body":"without, without using the grid?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":404.15,"endTime":405.98,"body":"We've gotta understand the grid profiling."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":405.98,"endTime":408.89,"body":"We've gotta understand how much we can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":405.98,"endTime":408.89,"body":"actually flatten profiling outta the grid."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":409.13,"endTime":410.63,"body":"And then we've gotta really"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":409.13,"endTime":410.63,"body":"understand the different."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":411.049,"endTime":413.479,"body":"Energy sources and their"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":411.049,"endTime":413.479,"body":"different characteristics as"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":413.479,"endTime":415.039,"body":"what we call network value."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":415.039,"endTime":418.489,"body":"So it's absolutely no point"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":415.039,"endTime":418.489,"body":"understanding the strike rate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":418.489,"endTime":419.929,"body":"of a particular energy source."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":419.929,"endTime":425.87,"body":"So for example, famously, uh, um,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":419.929,"endTime":425.87,"body":"wind power effectively dropped"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":426.08,"endTime":429.95,"body":"particularly offshore, dropped in cost"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":426.08,"endTime":429.95,"body":"enormously, I think Australia, 57."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":430.01,"endTime":435.469,"body":"Um, and that was that, that really spurred"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":430.01,"endTime":435.469,"body":"that industry on and we see the massive"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":435.469,"endTime":438.26,"body":"advance of that and see, yeah, fantastic."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":438.26,"endTime":440.479,"body":"But of course we all know"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":438.26,"endTime":440.479,"body":"it's got a one of the worst."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":440.789,"endTime":443.695,"body":"Profiles when it comes to the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":440.789,"endTime":443.695,"body":"generation of power because when, when"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":443.7,"endTime":447.33,"body":"the wind blows, so you've got this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":443.7,"endTime":447.33,"body":"cheap energy and then it suddenly,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":447.359,"endTime":451.289,"body":"suddenly that's becoming kind of like"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":447.359,"endTime":451.289,"body":"the, what the market's expecting."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":451.469,"endTime":454.859,"body":"And you go, yes, I know, but, but what"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":451.469,"endTime":454.859,"body":"value is something that can turn off and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":454.859,"endTime":458.31,"body":"ramp up and ramp down, such as combined"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":454.859,"endTime":458.31,"body":"cycle gas, turbine plum, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":458.37,"endTime":462.09,"body":"that you see got the most flexible at"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":458.37,"endTime":462.09,"body":"the moment as far as I understand it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":462.094,"endTime":462.135,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":462.215,"endTime":464.49,"body":"It's pretty well, the most"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":462.215,"endTime":464.49,"body":"flexible pass also, therefore,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":464.49,"endTime":466.605,"body":"it has a. Significantly higher."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":466.605,"endTime":469.365,"body":"But the problem is it's not decarbonized"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":466.605,"endTime":469.365,"body":"than actually carbon capture."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":469.365,"endTime":473.235,"body":"And that's very difficult because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":469.365,"endTime":473.235,"body":"flue gas is a very dilu CO2,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":473.475,"endTime":473.805,"body":"so,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":473.805,"endTime":473.985,"body":"you know."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":473.985,"endTime":474.195,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":474.49,"endTime":476.235,"body":"I mean, it is an established technology."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":476.715,"endTime":478.305,"body":"It just happens to be expensive."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":478.305,"endTime":482.235,"body":"So it brings back to that, that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":478.305,"endTime":482.235,"body":"question, what, what does expensive mean?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":482.415,"endTime":483.555,"body":"Well, it expensive."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":483.645,"endTime":483.735,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":483.735,"endTime":484.155,"body":"Expensive"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":484.155,"endTime":484.485,"body":"network value."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":484.995,"endTime":485.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":485.205,"endTime":489.225,"body":"So, and if we don't get network value,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":485.205,"endTime":489.225,"body":"sorry, rant on this one, but if we don't"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":489.225,"endTime":491.505,"body":"get network value sorted as an understood."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":491.77,"endTime":497.08,"body":"At least as a nation, although this is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":491.77,"endTime":497.08,"body":"actually of course, doesn't actually find"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":497.08,"endTime":500.38,"body":"itself to national boundaries because of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":497.08,"endTime":500.38,"body":"all the interconnects there are between"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":500.38,"endTime":502.659,"body":"different, uh, countries and states."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":502.659,"endTime":505.299,"body":"And there should be of course,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":502.659,"endTime":505.299,"body":"because of load balancing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":505.299,"endTime":511.15,"body":"But we've got to get the investment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":505.299,"endTime":511.15,"body":"in different technologies correctly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":511.15,"endTime":513.97,"body":"We've got to understand where"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":511.15,"endTime":513.97,"body":"to invest and how to invest"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":513.97,"endTime":515.225,"body":"and to what degree to invest."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":515.225,"endTime":518.89,"body":"And we do that by getting a better"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":515.225,"endTime":518.89,"body":"understanding of network value,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":518.919,"endTime":520.449,"body":"not absolute cost of energy."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":520.75,"endTime":524.085,"body":"What, what are the,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":520.75,"endTime":524.085,"body":"what are the key measures of"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":524.085,"endTime":526.995,"body":"network value, do we think?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":528.345,"endTime":529.905,"body":"I mean, there's clearly price points."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":530.055,"endTime":531.195,"body":"One that's always talked about"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":531.225,"endTime":532.965,"body":"what, what"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":531.225,"endTime":532.965,"body":"do we mean by network value?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":532.965,"endTime":534.105,"body":"Can we define it better?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":534.525,"endTime":534.675,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":534.675,"endTime":535.785,"body":"Well, uh."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":536.28,"endTime":536.85,"body":"We can have a go."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":538.98,"endTime":539.64,"body":"It's tricky."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":539.73,"endTime":539.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":540.0,"endTime":541.35,"body":"It is a, it's easy to say."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":541.56,"endTime":543.33,"body":"Well then easy to say,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":541.56,"endTime":543.33,"body":"to define if you think"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":543.33,"endTime":547.41,"body":"about it, actually more,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":543.33,"endTime":547.41,"body":"more factors come into play, but, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":548.01,"endTime":548.79,"body":"well, yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":548.85,"endTime":551.79,"body":"Because you start, I mean, you can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":548.85,"endTime":551.79,"body":"start with some simple things like can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":551.79,"endTime":553.98,"body":"it ramp up and can it ramp to demand?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":553.98,"endTime":556.05,"body":"So that can it, can it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":553.98,"endTime":556.05,"body":"follow demand profile?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":556.05,"endTime":557.365,"body":"It's gotta be one absolute."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":557.834,"endTime":561.015,"body":"The huge one, uh, in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":557.834,"endTime":561.015,"body":"terms of network value."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":561.435,"endTime":563.535,"body":"The other things is, you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":561.435,"endTime":563.535,"body":"know, what's, its, what's its"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":563.594,"endTime":565.275,"body":"reliability to balance against."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":565.275,"endTime":567.615,"body":"So, so, you know, I'll use some examples."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":567.885,"endTime":572.625,"body":"Nuclear gives you a very good, consistent,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":567.885,"endTime":572.625,"body":"but it's, but it's overly consistent."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":572.714,"endTime":572.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":572.805,"endTime":573.735,"body":"It's totally flat."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":573.824,"endTime":576.135,"body":"It doesn't, it gives you power,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":573.824,"endTime":576.135,"body":"wind, it doesn't go down."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":576.165,"endTime":576.435,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":576.555,"endTime":577.905,"body":"But of course"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":576.555,"endTime":577.905,"body":"it's fantastic at filling the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":577.905,"endTime":579.375,"body":"gaps in when you've got Peaky."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":579.765,"endTime":582.225,"body":"And we do get, unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":579.765,"endTime":582.225,"body":"particularly in the uk."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":583.125,"endTime":585.855,"body":"I dunno how much we should"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":583.125,"endTime":585.855,"body":"talk specifically about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":585.855,"endTime":586.785,"body":"the UK in this actually."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":586.785,"endTime":589.02,"body":"'cause of course it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":586.785,"endTime":589.02,"body":"this, I guess every, every,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":589.065,"endTime":589.245,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":589.245,"endTime":593.685,"body":"Just by every country will have peak,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":589.245,"endTime":593.685,"body":"very peaky demands because of usually"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":593.685,"endTime":596.355,"body":"the day has a, has a flow to it and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":596.475,"endTime":596.535,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":596.535,"endTime":599.535,"body":"But I suppose at least in areas"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":596.535,"endTime":599.535,"body":"where, for example, there's a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":599.535,"endTime":602.755,"body":"great deal of solar availability,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":599.535,"endTime":602.755,"body":"like Arab regions or, or well,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":603.46,"endTime":604.935,"body":"I guess, uh,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":603.46,"endTime":604.935,"body":"yeah, inconsistent weather."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":605.295,"endTime":607.425,"body":"Patterns, whereas we have"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":605.295,"endTime":607.425,"body":"inconsistent, we, we do."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":607.485,"endTime":608.954,"body":"And we get those sort of the calming"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":608.954,"endTime":612.104,"body":"periods where we need to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":608.954,"endTime":612.104,"body":"get wind or we get sun for, I think"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":612.104,"endTime":614.775,"body":"there was a, there was a, uh, last year"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":612.104,"endTime":614.775,"body":"or the year before, I can't remember."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":614.775,"endTime":617.594,"body":"There was a specific, specific"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":614.775,"endTime":617.594,"body":"period when we had about two"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":617.625,"endTime":619.635,"body":"or three months of very low."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":620.025,"endTime":623.145,"body":"Um, so setting all energy"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":620.025,"endTime":623.145,"body":"generation because the wind was low."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":623.175,"endTime":623.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":623.449,"endTime":624.584,"body":"And we had low solar."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":624.795,"endTime":628.844,"body":"So I think November sort of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":624.795,"endTime":628.844,"body":"period, October, November period."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":629.474,"endTime":629.954,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":630.69,"endTime":632.13,"body":"You know, how do we overcome those?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":632.34,"endTime":636.3,"body":"There's a, so that brings us onto"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":632.34,"endTime":636.3,"body":"the, the, the, there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":636.3,"endTime":637.65,"body":"a little bit of competition."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":637.65,"endTime":640.86,"body":"Perhaps there should be, there's this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":637.65,"endTime":640.86,"body":"competition between storage and the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":640.86,"endTime":645.39,"body":"concept that storage and, and that's,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":640.86,"endTime":645.39,"body":"that's derives quite a lot from the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":645.63,"endTime":648.575,"body":"nuclear debate because people who"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":645.63,"endTime":648.575,"body":"don't particularly want to see the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":649.53,"endTime":653.28,"body":"mass introduction, or sorry, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":649.53,"endTime":653.28,"body":"significantly increased introduction"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":653.28,"endTime":655.68,"body":"of nuclear, uh, of new nuclear power."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":655.71,"endTime":655.89,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":656.94,"endTime":657.87,"body":"They call it new nuclear."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":657.87,"endTime":661.74,"body":"We can get onto that in a minute, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":657.87,"endTime":661.74,"body":"the new nuclear power are looking to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":661.74,"endTime":665.97,"body":"say, well, actually just a sustainable"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":661.74,"endTime":665.97,"body":"sources, and then just store."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":665.995,"endTime":666.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":666.3,"endTime":666.39,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":666.57,"endTime":667.44,"body":"Energy storage."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":668.22,"endTime":671.73,"body":"I'm a bit of an energy storage"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":668.22,"endTime":671.73,"body":"skeptic, but I perhaps don't have."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":671.76,"endTime":671.88,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":672.824,"endTime":676.935,"body":"Enough knowledge to be that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":672.824,"endTime":676.935,"body":"skeptical, but the, generally"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":676.935,"endTime":680.444,"body":"speaking, the efficiencies of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":676.935,"endTime":680.444,"body":"reclaim of that power are quite low."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":681.045,"endTime":683.835,"body":"And the scale of it's just,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":681.045,"endTime":683.835,"body":"just, it's just incredible."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":683.985,"endTime":684.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":684.135,"endTime":688.215,"body":"You, you've gotta wonder whether the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":684.135,"endTime":688.215,"body":"scale and effort that goes into building"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":688.215,"endTime":692.055,"body":"those and, and, and the, and the time"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":688.215,"endTime":692.055,"body":"it takes to build those storage systems."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":693.015,"endTime":694.125,"body":"Unless it's battery."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":694.125,"endTime":695.835,"body":"And of course then you've got"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":694.125,"endTime":695.835,"body":"all this sort of rare earth and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":695.835,"endTime":700.605,"body":"all this kind of other problem of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":695.835,"endTime":700.605,"body":"the, the, the, the, the rare earth"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":700.605,"endTime":701.895,"body":"metals you need in them and so on."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":701.895,"endTime":702.615,"body":"Lithium, whatever."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":702.915,"endTime":706.845,"body":"Um, is that you, the time spent"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":702.915,"endTime":706.845,"body":"on that, would it be better spent"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":706.845,"endTime":709.665,"body":"on actually putting into just some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":706.845,"endTime":709.665,"body":"fundamental energy producing systems"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":709.665,"endTime":713.13,"body":"in the first place, be they sustainable"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":709.665,"endTime":713.13,"body":"or be they nuclear or whatever else?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":713.32,"endTime":716.175,"body":"Well, that does take"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":713.32,"endTime":716.175,"body":"us onto the question of distributed"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":716.175,"endTime":721.185,"body":"versus, uh, centralized, uh, power, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":716.175,"endTime":721.185,"body":"generation and storage 'cause storage."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":722.22,"endTime":726.03,"body":"It just might look more appealing if"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":722.22,"endTime":726.03,"body":"it's, if it's much more distributed."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":726.54,"endTime":728.91,"body":"Uh, and, um,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":729.15,"endTime":732.57,"body":"which comes back to your"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":729.15,"endTime":732.57,"body":"point about car batteries, because that,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":732.63,"endTime":736.68,"body":"I mean, car batteries, you could argue"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":732.63,"endTime":736.68,"body":"is a hugely distributed storage system."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":737.49,"endTime":737.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":737.88,"endTime":741.45,"body":"And I, it raises a question of, you know."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":742.17,"endTime":747.9,"body":"Who owns or, um, and I, I don't mean"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":742.17,"endTime":747.9,"body":"that in a sort of broad sense, you know,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":747.9,"endTime":753.15,"body":"the, um, energy system, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":747.9,"endTime":753.15,"body":"particular subset of the energy grid."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":753.36,"endTime":754.89,"body":"So we talk, we keep"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":753.36,"endTime":754.89,"body":"talking about the grid."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":755.25,"endTime":756.0,"body":"What is the grid?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":756.0,"endTime":759.75,"body":"You know, we are connected to the,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":756.0,"endTime":759.75,"body":"uh, in the uk we're connected to the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":759.75,"endTime":763.35,"body":"European grid, connected to Spain."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":763.35,"endTime":766.35,"body":"So, um, uh, the."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":767.235,"endTime":771.165,"body":"US grid is quite different in its"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":767.235,"endTime":771.165,"body":"characteristics I understand to the,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":771.165,"endTime":773.865,"body":"to the UK grid not as integrated."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":774.344,"endTime":781.005,"body":"So, um, I guess we have to think about"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":774.344,"endTime":781.005,"body":"what we mean when we talk about grid."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":781.005,"endTime":782.865,"body":"Where, where do we draw our boundaries?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":782.89,"endTime":785.447,"body":"Although there, there and,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":782.89,"endTime":785.447,"body":"and how do you I sorry."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":785.452,"endTime":790.515,"body":"I suppose it is because where you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":785.452,"endTime":790.515,"body":"draw the boundary very much drives"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":790.515,"endTime":793.574,"body":"the way you analyze and then come"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":790.515,"endTime":793.574,"body":"up with solutions within, within."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":793.589,"endTime":793.849,"body":"It does,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":795.405,"endTime":795.555,"body":"it does."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":795.78,"endTime":797.939,"body":"Bring in some political"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":795.78,"endTime":797.939,"body":"preferences, quite frankly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":797.939,"endTime":798.39,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":798.51,"endTime":801.93,"body":"Um, the political preferences, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":798.51,"endTime":801.93,"body":"one of the things is there's a sort"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":801.93,"endTime":805.68,"body":"of interesting question between"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":801.93,"endTime":805.68,"body":"political preferences and resilience."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":805.68,"endTime":810.03,"body":"So does distributed, does,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":805.68,"endTime":810.03,"body":"does off grid distributed."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":810.885,"endTime":814.785,"body":"Energy generation of storage give you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":810.885,"endTime":814.785,"body":"more resilience or less resilience?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":814.965,"endTime":819.91,"body":"It's an interesting question now"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":814.965,"endTime":819.91,"body":"because it it, it and back to also"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":824.54,"endTime":824.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":824.93,"endTime":826.51,"body":"And you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":824.93,"endTime":826.51,"body":"other things left, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":826.65,"endTime":829.725,"body":"So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":826.65,"endTime":829.725,"body":"I'm on the Strom grid, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":829.725,"endTime":831.345,"body":"sending my electricity at Per Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":831.345,"endTime":831.555,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":832.185,"endTime":833.925,"body":"I mean, but it,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":832.185,"endTime":833.925,"body":"but, but on the other hand, you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":833.925,"endTime":835.005,"body":"know, there's, there's a lot of."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":835.375,"endTime":838.915,"body":"Uh, there's a huge common sense,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":835.375,"endTime":838.915,"body":"for example, in interconnecting"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":838.915,"endTime":841.165,"body":"different nation states with energy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":841.165,"endTime":844.525,"body":"So that's politically, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":841.165,"endTime":844.525,"body":"problematic in some instances."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":844.795,"endTime":846.895,"body":"But I mean, it's fantastic"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":844.795,"endTime":846.895,"body":"for reducing demand."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":846.895,"endTime":850.944,"body":"I mean, for example, it's pretty"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":846.895,"endTime":850.944,"body":"obvious, but if you, the more east"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":850.944,"endTime":854.694,"body":"west, um, interconnection you make,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":850.944,"endTime":854.694,"body":"the more you can overcome day night."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":855.38,"endTime":856.79,"body":"The obvious day night power problem."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":856.79,"endTime":858.65,"body":"I mean, in the US that actually happens."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":858.65,"endTime":863.21,"body":"So there is actually, there is actually"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":858.65,"endTime":863.21,"body":"a distribution system, backbone system"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":863.21,"endTime":866.9,"body":"to some degree that has an east West"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":863.21,"endTime":866.9,"body":"influence in terms of load spreading."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":867.44,"endTime":870.86,"body":"But because the US is obviously"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":867.44,"endTime":870.86,"body":"quite federal, state driven."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":871.455,"endTime":873.255,"body":"That's not how the network zones done."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":873.255,"endTime":875.745,"body":"Quite a done, but there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":873.255,"endTime":875.745,"body":"quite a divided network."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":875.805,"endTime":879.255,"body":"Maybe it's not as strong as it needs"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":875.805,"endTime":879.255,"body":"to be, perhaps, but you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":879.255,"endTime":882.165,"body":"an obvious way of distributing loads."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":882.765,"endTime":884.745,"body":"Um, that's a fantastic thing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":884.745,"endTime":886.365,"body":"But then that's a central system."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":886.875,"endTime":889.245,"body":"So are you sort of pro the central system?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":889.245,"endTime":892.24,"body":"So certain things politically"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":889.245,"endTime":892.24,"body":"say, well, I feel, I feel that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":892.32,"endTime":896.415,"body":"I feel that's a fantastic European,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":892.32,"endTime":896.415,"body":"for example, pan-European."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":897.125,"endTime":898.295,"body":"Um, initiative."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":898.3,"endTime":898.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":898.54,"endTime":898.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":898.72,"endTime":901.7,"body":"You know, on one hand, on"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":898.72,"endTime":901.7,"body":"another hand, I'm going, Hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":902.255,"endTime":904.235,"body":"Well that's, that's hitting away power."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":904.235,"endTime":907.565,"body":"Well, of course that's a"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":904.235,"endTime":907.565,"body":"lot has been driven by, uh, you know,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":907.565,"endTime":911.405,"body":"individual country power security"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":907.565,"endTime":911.405,"body":"as it started to drive people the"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":911.405,"endTime":915.425,"body":"other way and looking very insular"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":911.405,"endTime":915.425,"body":"about controlling their own power."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":915.455,"endTime":915.815,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":915.815,"endTime":919.355,"body":"Well, on that insular thing, I mean, I,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":915.815,"endTime":919.355,"body":"I think there's, there is a political"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":919.415,"endTime":923.975,"body":"one, political imperative I think is, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":919.415,"endTime":923.975,"body":"the sort of, uh, relationship between."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":924.645,"endTime":928.605,"body":"Big commerce and state in the sense"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":924.645,"endTime":928.605,"body":"that I think it's fair enough to say"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":928.605,"endTime":932.355,"body":"that some of these big, uh, commercial"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":928.605,"endTime":932.355,"body":"entities that are now looking to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":932.355,"endTime":934.785,"body":"consume vast amounts of power, why"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":932.355,"endTime":934.785,"body":"are they looking to consume power?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":934.785,"endTime":938.805,"body":"Well, it's, it's, in some re"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":934.785,"endTime":938.805,"body":"regards, it's an essential service."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":938.895,"endTime":940.425,"body":"So, you know, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":941.095,"endTime":945.175,"body":"But uh, uh, in terms of, say, for"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":941.095,"endTime":945.175,"body":"example, the provision of data centers,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":946.285,"endTime":950.095,"body":"but in another way it's just making"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":946.285,"endTime":950.095,"body":"commercialism to, to, to to attract"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":950.095,"endTime":951.115,"body":"as much of the market as possible."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":951.115,"endTime":954.355,"body":"So they have a responsibility"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":951.115,"endTime":954.355,"body":"not to skew the grid."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":954.355,"endTime":955.465,"body":"They may be able to afford."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":955.465,"endTime":958.855,"body":"I mean, one of the things we see there"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":955.465,"endTime":958.855,"body":"is them buying green energy packages that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":958.855,"endTime":962.125,"body":"are so large that it starves everyone else"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":958.855,"endTime":962.125,"body":"with the availability of the green energy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":962.125,"endTime":965.065,"body":"So you go, well, that's, that, that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":962.125,"endTime":965.065,"body":"isn't a way to decarbonize and just,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":965.065,"endTime":968.275,"body":"and then, then they, then they will"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":965.065,"endTime":968.275,"body":"put out vast amounts of advertising"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":968.275,"endTime":969.475,"body":"saying that they're the greenest."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":969.51,"endTime":972.03,"body":"Provider of this particular thing,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":969.51,"endTime":972.03,"body":"but only because they're the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":972.6,"endTime":976.74,"body":"biggest financial, uh, uh, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":972.6,"endTime":976.74,"body":"uh, buyer in this marketplace, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":976.74,"endTime":977.819,"body":"therefore they can skew the market."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":977.819,"endTime":978.03,"body":"Have we seen"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":978.51,"endTime":979.92,"body":"that in Ireland?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":979.92,"endTime":983.13,"body":"I think there's, there's been, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":979.92,"endTime":983.13,"body":"you know, central government pushback"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":983.13,"endTime":987.0,"body":"against the development of data"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":983.13,"endTime":987.0,"body":"centers, but precise in that reason."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":987.0,"endTime":990.39,"body":"Well, yes, and, and of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":987.0,"endTime":990.39,"body":"course one of the things is that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":990.625,"endTime":994.555,"body":"You know, it's, it's, I mean, one thing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":990.625,"endTime":994.555,"body":"about that, since we know a chunk of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":994.555,"endTime":998.005,"body":"energy is lost in the cooling, and of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":994.555,"endTime":998.005,"body":"course there's been an attempt to turn"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":998.005,"endTime":1000.74,"body":"them into district heating schemes and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":998.005,"endTime":1000.74,"body":"these kind of things, but these, these"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1000.795,"endTime":1005.625,"body":"kind of, this kind of integration, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1000.795,"endTime":1005.625,"body":"don't, one of the things, and it goes"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1005.625,"endTime":1010.454,"body":"for all of this power integration,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1005.625,"endTime":1010.454,"body":"is that it's just incredibly slow."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1010.814,"endTime":1010.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1011.055,"endTime":1014.474,"body":"So there's going to be,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1011.055,"endTime":1014.474,"body":"have to be quite a lot of effort putting,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1014.474,"endTime":1017.805,"body":"I mean, sort of distributed systems."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1018.44,"endTime":1020.42,"body":"Have to exist because of speed."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1020.78,"endTime":1020.9,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1021.14,"endTime":1024.23,"body":"Because centralized systems, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1021.14,"endTime":1024.23,"body":"mean, another classic case, again,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1024.44,"endTime":1028.339,"body":"no expert, but we know that most"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1024.44,"endTime":1028.339,"body":"of the wind energy production for."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1028.714,"endTime":1032.704,"body":"Germany's in the north and most of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1028.714,"endTime":1032.704,"body":"the commerce and industries in the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1032.704,"endTime":1036.905,"body":"south and their grid system isn't"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1032.704,"endTime":1036.905,"body":"currently efficiently transferring"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1036.905,"endTime":1037.865,"body":"from the north to the south."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1037.865,"endTime":1040.805,"body":"Now, do we expect that grid"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1037.865,"endTime":1040.805,"body":"system to change rapidly?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1040.805,"endTime":1041.435,"body":"No, we don't."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1041.585,"endTime":1046.234,"body":"So is the answer therefore to get more"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1041.585,"endTime":1046.234,"body":"sustainable energy productions courses?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1046.504,"endTime":1050.225,"body":"I don't wanna speak for Germany here,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1046.504,"endTime":1050.225,"body":"but you know, but is it to get more"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1050.225,"endTime":1054.725,"body":"sustainable, um, point of view sources"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1050.225,"endTime":1054.725,"body":"down in the, uh, south of Germany"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1054.725,"endTime":1056.705,"body":"and you've got to think that form."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1057.245,"endTime":1061.265,"body":"Distributed energy production"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1057.245,"endTime":1061.265,"body":"has to, to, has to be here."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1061.265,"endTime":1066.125,"body":"And I, I guess that's one of the reasons"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1061.265,"endTime":1066.125,"body":"why people have got quite excited about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1066.635,"endTime":1070.05,"body":"small modular reactor sm so-called SMRs."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1071.06,"endTime":1075.89,"body":"Um, because they suddenly think, hang on"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1071.06,"endTime":1075.89,"body":"a minute, it's decarbonized, it's small."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1075.98,"endTime":1077.69,"body":"Apparently we're gonna be able"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1075.98,"endTime":1077.69,"body":"to build them really quickly,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1077.69,"endTime":1079.49,"body":"which we maybe get onto to later."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1080.03,"endTime":1084.05,"body":"And, uh, we can take out these point"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1080.03,"endTime":1084.05,"body":"source loads and we can basically"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1084.05,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"make these, uh, particularly these"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1084.05,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"big commercial entities, cl you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1087.05,"endTime":1088.61,"body":"clean up their own act effectively."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1088.76,"endTime":1089.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1089.06,"endTime":1089.81,"body":"They don't, you know,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1089.93,"endTime":1092.78,"body":"well, uh, uh, there"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1089.93,"endTime":1092.78,"body":"is, it's another dimension, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1092.78,"endTime":1097.94,"body":"Is the, the hard to decarbonize"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1092.78,"endTime":1097.94,"body":"sectors, uh, tend to be very high."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1098.66,"endTime":1103.79,"body":"Users and things which are quite difficult"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1098.66,"endTime":1103.79,"body":"to move, you know, like steelworks."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1103.82,"endTime":1110.36,"body":"So you know, to think that they're going"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1103.82,"endTime":1110.36,"body":"to decarbonize by taking grid power,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1110.72,"endTime":1113.93,"body":"you know, in light of the compensation"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1110.72,"endTime":1113.93,"body":"we're having, seems quite unlikely."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1114.89,"endTime":1118.73,"body":"The grid would won't"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1114.89,"endTime":1118.73,"body":"adapt quickly enough to distribute"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1118.73,"endTime":1122.78,"body":"green power from where it's"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1118.73,"endTime":1122.78,"body":"generated to, to where it's demanded."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1122.84,"endTime":1126.56,"body":"And I think the, the way"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1122.84,"endTime":1126.56,"body":"when, when there's, um, supply pressure"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1126.56,"endTime":1131.36,"body":"on the grid at the moment, then domestic"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1126.56,"endTime":1131.36,"body":"users get priority in the UK at least."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1132.05,"endTime":1133.79,"body":"So, uh, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1132.05,"endTime":1133.79,"body":"don't wanna be switching."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1133.79,"endTime":1134.785,"body":"Not sure that's global"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1134.965,"endTime":1135.305,"body":"the case."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1135.985,"endTime":1136.265,"body":"Probably not."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1137.905,"endTime":1138.025,"body":"I."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1143.525,"endTime":1146.231,"body":"So a lot of those hard to decarbonize"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1143.525,"endTime":1146.231,"body":"areas are either gonna, are either going"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1146.231,"endTime":1149.225,"body":"to get, derive their fuels from bio."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1149.945,"endTime":1154.595,"body":"Sources in the first place, gasification"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1149.945,"endTime":1154.595,"body":"or whatever, or there, or other forms."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1154.625,"endTime":1154.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1155.255,"endTime":1159.905,"body":"Familiar with, um, or they're going"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1155.255,"endTime":1159.905,"body":"to use hydrolysis, which is gonna"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1159.905,"endTime":1162.575,"body":"use a huge amount of power and then,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1159.905,"endTime":1162.575,"body":"and that, but then, then that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1162.575,"endTime":1163.685,"body":"obviously gotta be green energy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1163.685,"endTime":1166.505,"body":"So I, I think somebody,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1163.685,"endTime":1166.505,"body":"some people thought for."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1166.899,"endTime":1170.05,"body":"Period, that there was a bit of a silver"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1166.899,"endTime":1170.05,"body":"bullet in the idea of using sustainable"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1170.379,"endTime":1174.669,"body":"when it wasn't, when it was peaking in its"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1170.379,"endTime":1174.669,"body":"production and must've been used and then"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1174.669,"endTime":1176.35,"body":"turning into hydrogen through hydrolysis."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1176.35,"endTime":1178.75,"body":"But the problem with that is the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1176.35,"endTime":1178.75,"body":"hydrolysis equipment's incredibly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1178.75,"endTime":1182.98,"body":"expensive and you, you are amortizing the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1178.75,"endTime":1182.98,"body":"cost of the, uh, of the, uh, the equipment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1182.98,"endTime":1184.629,"body":"against the period that it's used."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1184.929,"endTime":1185.98,"body":"Yeah, it was only used in."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1186.74,"endTime":1191.78,"body":"Points of, it's fantastic because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1186.74,"endTime":1191.78,"body":"you get the energy used and you store"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1191.78,"endTime":1194.389,"body":"it effectively in the hydrogen, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1191.78,"endTime":1194.389,"body":"it's only happening from hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1194.389,"endTime":1197.81,"body":"sort of who, who's gonna invest in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1194.389,"endTime":1197.81,"body":"that kind of equipment that's only"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1197.81,"endTime":1199.46,"body":"gonna get a sort of 15, 20% usage."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1199.58,"endTime":1203.855,"body":"Well, unless you set a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1199.58,"endTime":1203.855,"body":"different For different e."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1204.139,"endTime":1205.49,"body":"E, exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1205.97,"endTime":1206.855,"body":"Which is,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1205.97,"endTime":1206.855,"body":"which goes back to that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1206.855,"endTime":1207.014,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1207.034,"endTime":1207.254,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1207.495,"endTime":1209.975,"body":"represent the network"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1207.495,"endTime":1209.975,"body":"value for the, the power source."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1210.274,"endTime":1213.8,"body":"I'm, I'm bound to say that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1210.274,"endTime":1213.8,"body":"another place where, actually, another"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1213.8,"endTime":1215.84,"body":"way, instead of thinking of small modular."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1222.53,"body":"Uh, or thinking of new nuclear"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1222.53,"body":"more particularly as being needed"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1222.53,"endTime":1223.76,"body":"to be distributed in points."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1223.76,"endTime":1227.09,"body":"Actually doing things like, for"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1223.76,"endTime":1227.09,"body":"example, hydrogen production, for"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1227.09,"endTime":1228.65,"body":"some of them harder to decarbonize."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1228.65,"endTime":1232.97,"body":"'cause I think, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1228.65,"endTime":1232.97,"body":"where I think we all agree that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1233.48,"endTime":1235.34,"body":"That's where that's gonna be needed."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1235.43,"endTime":1235.58,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1235.61,"endTime":1238.64,"body":"It's not gonna be,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1235.61,"endTime":1238.64,"body":"I, I think the, the old concept,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1238.73,"endTime":1242.27,"body":"one of the concepts of the, of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1238.73,"endTime":1242.27,"body":"hydrogen economy where everything"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1242.27,"endTime":1243.74,"body":"was, everything was wrong on hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1243.74,"endTime":1248.27,"body":"The classic being everyone's home,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1243.74,"endTime":1248.27,"body":"just having a a, a domestic boilers."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1248.27,"endTime":1250.07,"body":"Domestic boilers running on hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1250.07,"endTime":1251.96,"body":"I think that's pretty well disappearing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1251.96,"endTime":1252.65,"body":"I certainly hope so."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1253.365,"endTime":1257.085,"body":"Because everyone realized, I think the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1253.365,"endTime":1257.085,"body":"the head of octopus energy, I think it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1257.085,"endTime":1260.355,"body":"was said, you know, it's, it's, it's akin"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1257.085,"endTime":1260.355,"body":"to flushing the toilet with champagne."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1260.41,"endTime":1261.045,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1261.045,"endTime":1263.895,"body":"Which I thought was, you know, obviously"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1261.045,"endTime":1263.895,"body":"he was biased when he's the first place."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1263.895,"endTime":1266.1,"body":"But yeah, it was a nice, it"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1266.1,"endTime":1268.065,"body":"was a good one"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1266.1,"endTime":1268.065,"body":"of those good statements."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1268.065,"endTime":1270.015,"body":"It was, which gets every"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1268.065,"endTime":1270.015,"body":"thinking in the, it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1270.1,"endTime":1270.18,"body":"does."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1271.365,"endTime":1274.245,"body":"I think that's just sort of gone"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1271.365,"endTime":1274.245,"body":"and, um, it wasn't that long ago."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1274.245,"endTime":1276.135,"body":"I think it'll be mooted"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1274.245,"endTime":1276.135,"body":"two or three or four"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1276.135,"endTime":1276.315,"body":"years ago."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1276.315,"endTime":1279.915,"body":"Oh, the, the debate continues"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1276.315,"endTime":1279.915,"body":"to rage and I think, I think the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1279.915,"endTime":1281.535,"body":"hydrogen debate is quite a good."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1282.34,"endTime":1290.86,"body":"Example of how different technologies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1282.34,"endTime":1290.86,"body":"are, um, tute I suppose might be a word or"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1290.86,"endTime":1298.54,"body":"promoted by, you know, specific commercial"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1290.86,"endTime":1298.54,"body":"interests and, you know, is this really"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1298.54,"endTime":1300.399,"body":"the best way of trying to work out?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1300.905,"endTime":1304.385,"body":"How we should arrange"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1300.905,"endTime":1304.385,"body":"this very complex system."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1304.385,"endTime":1309.995,"body":"I'm not sure what the alternatives"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1304.385,"endTime":1309.995,"body":"are, but it seems to me that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1310.475,"endTime":1315.065,"body":"do I, you know, create hydrogen using"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1310.475,"endTime":1315.065,"body":"electrolysis and then feed that into a."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1315.84,"endTime":1321.87,"body":"Into my plant or do I use methane and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1315.84,"endTime":1321.87,"body":"capture the, the CO2 to, to, to use the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1321.87,"endTime":1326.61,"body":"medium of, I've got a great technology,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1321.87,"endTime":1326.61,"body":"you know, invest in, this seems quite an"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1326.61,"endTime":1328.439,"body":"indirect way of addressing the product,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1328.5,"endTime":1330.655,"body":"but it comes back"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1328.5,"endTime":1330.655,"body":"to that if we, if we had a, a."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1331.58,"endTime":1335.06,"body":"An agreed view of what network value was."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1335.12,"endTime":1335.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1335.479,"endTime":1335.719,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1335.719,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"And you would go, how"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1335.719,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"does this technology fit?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1339.62,"body":"How does it fit into the system?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1339.679,"endTime":1340.159,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1340.185,"endTime":1341.989,"body":"I, I think what's its price point?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1342.86,"endTime":1343.25,"body":"How sustainable,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1343.25,"endTime":1343.399,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1343.399,"endTime":1343.729,"body":"exactly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1343.729,"endTime":1344.584,"body":"the problem you've got."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1344.584,"endTime":1347.419,"body":"You've got to have, there has to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1344.584,"endTime":1347.419,"body":"be this, in this kind of emerging"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1347.419,"endTime":1350.75,"body":"new technologies, there has to be"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1347.419,"endTime":1350.75,"body":"a kind of startup mentality where"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1350.78,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"you, you are producing a new."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1352.915,"endTime":1355.165,"body":"Technology or you are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1352.915,"endTime":1355.165,"body":"falling that in each other."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1355.314,"endTime":1357.955,"body":"You gotta tell everyone it's the best"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1355.314,"endTime":1357.955,"body":"thing ever because that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1357.955,"endTime":1359.064,"body":"what, that's, that's what you gotta do."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1359.364,"endTime":1359.665,"body":"Therefore,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1359.665,"endTime":1361.554,"body":"you, the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1359.665,"endTime":1361.554,"body":"danger is you might succeed"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1361.764,"endTime":1364.915,"body":"well, you might succeed"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1361.764,"endTime":1364.915,"body":"in that, and, and, and therefore"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1364.915,"endTime":1368.304,"body":"there needs to be some method"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1364.915,"endTime":1368.304,"body":"of contextualizing those claims."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1368.574,"endTime":1370.495,"body":"That's the point is there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1368.574,"endTime":1370.495,"body":"nothing wrong with a claim."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1370.705,"endTime":1370.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1370.824,"endTime":1374.725,"body":"That I can do this thing and I can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1370.824,"endTime":1374.725,"body":"produce a, a, a biofuel or whatever, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1374.725,"endTime":1376.044,"body":"I can do it lower rate than anyone else."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1377.075,"endTime":1379.504,"body":"But the point is the claim has"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1377.075,"endTime":1379.504,"body":"to be contextualized somehow."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1379.595,"endTime":1382.925,"body":"So there needs to be something, and this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1379.595,"endTime":1382.925,"body":"is where we come to this sort of like"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1382.925,"endTime":1386.254,"body":"business of how much is this done at"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1382.925,"endTime":1386.254,"body":"a sort of nation state level, and how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1386.254,"endTime":1391.235,"body":"much is this done at a, at a market,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1386.254,"endTime":1391.235,"body":"uh, investment level is someone has"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1391.235,"endTime":1395.465,"body":"to be orchestrating somehow or there"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1391.235,"endTime":1395.465,"body":"has to be some level of orchestration."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1395.465,"endTime":1399.004,"body":"This is one of my, one of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1395.465,"endTime":1399.004,"body":"real worries is, is this is very."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1399.8,"endTime":1400.52,"body":"Complicated."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1400.52,"endTime":1404.629,"body":"There's many people who could, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1400.52,"endTime":1404.629,"body":"contribute to this conversation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1404.72,"endTime":1408.44,"body":"One of the reasons we are doing this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1404.72,"endTime":1408.44,"body":"podcast, because people should feel free."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1408.59,"endTime":1408.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1408.889,"endTime":1411.95,"body":"But, but it, it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1408.889,"endTime":1411.95,"body":"should be, uh, there's many"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1411.95,"endTime":1414.44,"body":"people that could be contributing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1411.95,"endTime":1414.44,"body":"hugely to this kind of debate."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1414.86,"endTime":1418.58,"body":"The question is, where is that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1414.86,"endTime":1418.58,"body":"knowledge being collected and, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1418.58,"endTime":1421.25,"body":"and where is it being, um, channeled?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1421.429,"endTime":1421.52,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1421.76,"endTime":1427.16,"body":"So, I mean, I sat in a. Uh, in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1421.76,"endTime":1427.16,"body":"a chamber in the House of Lords."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1427.16,"endTime":1429.02,"body":"Not the main one, but some side room."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1429.02,"endTime":1432.649,"body":"Some were having a ba debate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1429.02,"endTime":1432.649,"body":"about, um, uh, small modular"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1432.649,"endTime":1434.27,"body":"reactor introductions into the uk."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1434.27,"endTime":1439.16,"body":"And uh, there was a group of, uh, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1434.27,"endTime":1439.16,"body":"Lords in the room, uh, who just kept"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1439.16,"endTime":1440.21,"body":"saying, how much is it gonna cost?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1440.21,"endTime":1441.08,"body":"What's the strike rate?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1441.17,"endTime":1441.98,"body":"Thomas, the strike rate."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1441.98,"endTime":1444.47,"body":"'cause we are gonna go into the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1441.98,"endTime":1444.47,"body":"chamber and we like to, we like."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1444.71,"endTime":1446.27,"body":"We like the idea of the technology."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1446.27,"endTime":1447.53,"body":"We think we're advocates of it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1447.98,"endTime":1450.65,"body":"Uh, we just like to see how, how,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1447.98,"endTime":1450.65,"body":"how it is and how it, and, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1450.656,"endTime":1454.34,"body":"therefore basically claim that it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1450.656,"endTime":1454.34,"body":"low cost or is the fundamental and."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1455.21,"endTime":1458.15,"body":"Everyone who else was in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1455.21,"endTime":1458.15,"body":"the room kept saying, Hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1458.18,"endTime":1460.28,"body":"But it depends on how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1458.18,"endTime":1460.28,"body":"you view the cost of it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1460.28,"endTime":1460.94,"body":"What's the network?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1460.94,"endTime":1464.24,"body":"And um, unfortunately that was an"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1460.94,"endTime":1464.24,"body":"illustration that this debate, which is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1464.24,"endTime":1466.7,"body":"being, you know, in, in our own parliament"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1467.12,"endTime":1467.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1467.39,"endTime":1470.45,"body":"Is not being had at anything"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1467.39,"endTime":1470.45,"body":"like a sophisticated enough level."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1470.9,"endTime":1472.875,"body":"Now I'm not saying that was, that was a."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1473.485,"endTime":1476.274,"body":"I dunno, 18 months ago, so"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1473.485,"endTime":1476.274,"body":"it wasn't a lifetime ago."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1476.274,"endTime":1480.205,"body":"I doubt the debate has advanced"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1476.274,"endTime":1480.205,"body":"massively and it needs to advance"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1480.205,"endTime":1481.375,"body":"massive advance massively."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1481.405,"endTime":1484.764,"body":"There's no point pretending something"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1481.405,"endTime":1484.764,"body":"as complex as this is simple."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1485.125,"endTime":1485.304,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1485.304,"endTime":1485.935,"body":"And reducing it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1485.935,"endTime":1487.855,"body":"'cause it won't get you any further."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1487.855,"endTime":1488.3,"body":"It won't get much."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1488.32,"endTime":1489.084,"body":"It never is, is"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1489.084,"endTime":1489.264,"body":"it?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1489.264,"endTime":1493.375,"body":"If you pretend that something's easy"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1489.264,"endTime":1493.375,"body":"when it's not, then you just start"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1493.375,"endTime":1494.995,"body":"making the wrong decisions very quickly."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1494.995,"endTime":1495.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1496.16,"endTime":1498.86,"body":"So that, that, if"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1496.16,"endTime":1498.86,"body":"you like, framing of the marketplace"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1498.86,"endTime":1500.84,"body":"is, is, is insufficient at the moment."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1501.08,"endTime":1501.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1501.71,"endTime":1504.53,"body":"And, and it's very difficult"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1501.71,"endTime":1504.53,"body":"for investors, you know, let's"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1504.53,"endTime":1506.27,"body":"say, you know, in data centers."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1506.72,"endTime":1511.1,"body":"'cause you, you can look at your"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1506.72,"endTime":1511.1,"body":"problem in, in the context of the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1511.1,"endTime":1513.44,"body":"power for that, for that data center."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1514.1,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"But when you look at it globally,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1514.1,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"that's, that's not necessarily the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1518.3,"endTime":1522.65,"body":"best investment of, um, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1518.3,"endTime":1522.65,"body":"best investment in energy production."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1523.13,"endTime":1524.54,"body":"When you look at a broader."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1525.05,"endTime":1526.13,"body":"Societal need, you know?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1526.61,"endTime":1530.78,"body":"No, and I, I mean, and even"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1526.61,"endTime":1530.78,"body":"worse for, for, for potential, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1530.78,"endTime":1532.34,"body":"technologies in actual power production."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1532.34,"endTime":1534.375,"body":"I mean, how do, how does"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1532.34,"endTime":1534.375,"body":"anybody know what, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1534.38,"endTime":1535.25,"body":"how do they know they fit in?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1535.25,"endTime":1540.95,"body":"What did they expect to see as"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1535.25,"endTime":1540.95,"body":"a, um, how on earth do they gauge"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1540.95,"endTime":1544.25,"body":"what their, the value of their"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1540.95,"endTime":1544.25,"body":"product is at this point in time?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1544.25,"endTime":1544.73,"body":"Yeah, because"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1544.73,"endTime":1546.095,"body":"there's no"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1544.73,"endTime":1546.095,"body":"guidance really, is there?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1546.315,"endTime":1546.535,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1546.54,"endTime":1549.68,"body":"So there isn't no, well,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1546.54,"endTime":1549.68,"body":"there's no shared, shared view."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1549.86,"endTime":1550.16,"body":"I mean that,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1550.415,"endTime":1554.0,"body":"I mean, that's the, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1550.415,"endTime":1554.0,"body":"I think that's one of the keenest areas."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1554.51,"endTime":1555.5,"body":"That's felt."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1555.5,"endTime":1560.06,"body":"Is that, um, uh, the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1555.5,"endTime":1560.06,"body":"the white, well, it depends."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1560.06,"endTime":1561.05,"body":"It's an interesting one, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1561.05,"endTime":1565.55,"body":"The, the new nuclear debate is a big one,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1561.05,"endTime":1565.55,"body":"and it's a kind of, it's hard to avoid."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1565.895,"endTime":1570.185,"body":"It's hard to avoid this, this, this, this,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1565.895,"endTime":1570.185,"body":"this point, because we kind of understand"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1570.455,"endTime":1574.955,"body":"wind production, we understand that it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1570.455,"endTime":1574.955,"body":"getting a bit harder as it, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1574.955,"endTime":1578.015,"body":"some of the group, the best possible"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1574.955,"endTime":1578.015,"body":"sites, easiest possible sites have been"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1578.015,"endTime":1579.995,"body":"taken and they get a bit more difficult."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1579.995,"endTime":1581.495,"body":"But we sort of can get"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1579.995,"endTime":1581.495,"body":"our heads around that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1581.795,"endTime":1585.035,"body":"We can sort of get our heads, heads"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1581.795,"endTime":1585.035,"body":"around solar, although I find some of the."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1585.47,"endTime":1591.2,"body":"The, the solar locations in the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1585.47,"endTime":1591.2,"body":"uk and the, um, the, uh, ability"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1591.2,"endTime":1594.62,"body":"for them to be blocked by local,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1591.2,"endTime":1594.62,"body":"uh, politics is quite interesting."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1595.19,"endTime":1600.29,"body":"Um, you can argue it's, you know, the UK"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1595.19,"endTime":1600.29,"body":"struggles with that or benefits from that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1600.29,"endTime":1601.16,"body":"Depends how you look at it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1601.28,"endTime":1601.55,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1601.58,"endTime":1603.35,"body":"Local power in that sense."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1603.74,"endTime":1608.81,"body":"But, um, the, uh, one of the things"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1603.74,"endTime":1608.81,"body":"I think it's quite clear, and it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1608.81,"endTime":1611.21,"body":"interesting, obviously Tony Blair"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1608.81,"endTime":1611.21,"body":"came out and said it the other"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1611.21,"endTime":1613.22,"body":"day, and you can see that, uh, uh."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1613.655,"endTime":1617.375,"body":"It's seen as a criticism of current"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1613.655,"endTime":1617.375,"body":"government policy and you find it star"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1617.375,"endTime":1620.375,"body":"are trying to, uh, suggest that they're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1617.375,"endTime":1620.375,"body":"in fact exactly on the same page."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1620.855,"endTime":1624.845,"body":"But really all it is, is what a previous"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1620.855,"endTime":1624.845,"body":"prime minister can say compared to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1624.845,"endTime":1626.795,"body":"what a current minister can say."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1626.795,"endTime":1627.395,"body":"An actual fact."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1627.395,"endTime":1629.555,"body":"There is a pretty unification"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1627.395,"endTime":1629.555,"body":"of understanding and that's just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1629.555,"endTime":1632.405,"body":"one can say at a one can't, which"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1629.555,"endTime":1632.405,"body":"is Blair's completely Right."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1632.405,"endTime":1634.445,"body":"Got no chance at the moment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1632.405,"endTime":1634.445,"body":"on current trajectory."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1634.445,"endTime":1639.125,"body":"Is any of the ambitious targets made"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1634.445,"endTime":1639.125,"body":"for, um, restriction of increase"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1639.125,"endTime":1642.785,"body":"of warm with the globe, but just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1639.125,"endTime":1642.785,"body":"completely and phasing out fossil fuel?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1642.785,"endTime":1642.875,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1643.685,"endTime":1645.965,"body":"Absolutely nowhere here at the moment."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1645.965,"endTime":1650.195,"body":"I mean, I just, I think until you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1645.965,"endTime":1650.195,"body":"sort of accept that and stop kidding"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1650.195,"endTime":1654.635,"body":"yourself, um, then you won't, um,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1650.195,"endTime":1654.635,"body":"you won't take this, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1654.635,"endTime":1657.845,"body":"debate won't, won't go forward at the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1654.635,"endTime":1657.845,"body":"speed it needs to go forward because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1657.845,"endTime":1658.985,"body":"it really does need to go speed."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1659.555,"endTime":1660.785,"body":"The silver bullets."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1660.785,"endTime":1661.715,"body":"Some people see."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1662.12,"endTime":1665.27,"body":"It's very controversial because some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1662.12,"endTime":1665.27,"body":"people see the proliferation as nuclear"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1665.27,"endTime":1667.58,"body":"power as being a, a, a terrible thing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1668.42,"endTime":1672.26,"body":"Some people seeing it as being an"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1668.42,"endTime":1672.26,"body":"essential thing and something that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1672.26,"endTime":1675.32,"body":"should be welcomed, and that's a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1672.26,"endTime":1675.32,"body":"that's a debate that's gonna carry on."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1675.32,"endTime":1678.02,"body":"But, but the, but the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1675.32,"endTime":1678.02,"body":"essential thing is that the."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1678.29,"endTime":1681.83,"body":"Behind every new technology,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1678.29,"endTime":1681.83,"body":"there is a set of value drivers"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1681.83,"endTime":1686.21,"body":"that, in this case are set at"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1681.83,"endTime":1686.21,"body":"a, yeah, set at a society level."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1686.21,"endTime":1688.61,"body":"I mean, normally you, they'll"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1686.21,"endTime":1688.61,"body":"be set at a sort of commercial"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1688.61,"endTime":1689.629,"body":"level or a company level."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1689.629,"endTime":1690.71,"body":"These are set at a society level."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1690.74,"endTime":1694.46,"body":"So one of these questions I could say is,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1690.74,"endTime":1694.46,"body":"how safe do you want nuclear power to be?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1694.46,"endTime":1695.51,"body":"Well, I mean, what a question."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1695.69,"endTime":1699.29,"body":"Because everyone's gonna go"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1695.69,"endTime":1699.29,"body":"totally safe or so totally safe."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1699.29,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"For example, has driven the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1699.29,"endTime":1703.43,"body":"some of the new nuclear providers to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1703.43,"endTime":1705.47,"body":"head for reactors that quite frankly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1706.685,"endTime":1707.795,"body":"Just decay, heat."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1707.855,"endTime":1713.105,"body":"The way they cool down in the event of a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1707.855,"endTime":1713.105,"body":"uh, in the event of a a, a, a a serious"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1713.105,"endTime":1716.555,"body":"problem is they're just passively cool."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1716.795,"endTime":1720.695,"body":"Which, and it's a lovely concept,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1716.795,"endTime":1720.695,"body":"but, but of course it's very limiting"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1720.695,"endTime":1724.055,"body":"in terms of their, they, they become"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1720.695,"endTime":1724.055,"body":"less economical to build, less"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1724.115,"endTime":1726.575,"body":"economical to run in certain instances."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1726.635,"endTime":1728.585,"body":"Gotta be careful here 'cause"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1726.635,"endTime":1728.585,"body":"there's all sorts of different."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1729.12,"endTime":1731.28,"body":"Providers will claim all sorts"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1729.12,"endTime":1731.28,"body":"of different things about their"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1731.28,"endTime":1734.639,"body":"new technology, but fundamentally"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1731.28,"endTime":1734.639,"body":"it's not going to produce the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1734.639,"endTime":1736.139,"body":"most economical nuclear power."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1736.5,"endTime":1736.649,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1736.709,"endTime":1739.59,"body":"Um, so then that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1736.709,"endTime":1739.59,"body":"means you've gotta rely on systems."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1739.59,"endTime":1743.01,"body":"And then people say, well, it's, as soon"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1739.59,"endTime":1743.01,"body":"as they rely on systems, well then failure"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1743.01,"endTime":1744.899,"body":"is go is is has got a chance of occurring."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1744.929,"endTime":1745.889,"body":"I think it doesn't"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1745.889,"endTime":1748.83,"body":"rely on, in the"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1745.889,"endTime":1748.83,"body":"airline industry, they they do."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1749.04,"endTime":1749.729,"body":"They have set."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1749.93,"endTime":1751.97,"body":"I mean, they haven't set zero Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1751.97,"endTime":1752.36,"body":"Limits."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1752.36,"endTime":1756.05,"body":"Well, they set themselves well,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1752.36,"endTime":1756.05,"body":"very low limits of death and injury."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1756.8,"endTime":1758.0,"body":"Accept, but they still have,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1758.33,"endTime":1760.73,"body":"but they still have to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1758.33,"endTime":1760.73,"body":"accept a plane will fall outta the sky."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1760.76,"endTime":1760.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1761.33,"endTime":1762.11,"body":"Now and again, yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1762.295,"endTime":1766.1,"body":"I mean I, I've, I've"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1762.295,"endTime":1766.1,"body":"in, in, in my exposure to the work"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1766.1,"endTime":1771.68,"body":"we've done on, uh, new nuclear, if"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1766.1,"endTime":1771.68,"body":"that's the, the terminology is, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1772.31,"endTime":1776.57,"body":"And people tend to focus on the,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1772.31,"endTime":1776.57,"body":"the reactor technology and not"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1776.57,"endTime":1778.7,"body":"the, um, the full fuel cycle."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1778.7,"endTime":1783.92,"body":"And yeah, and really the, the bits that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1778.7,"endTime":1783.92,"body":"are, you know, more worrying and the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1783.92,"endTime":1788.21,"body":"bits that are not at the power generation"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1783.92,"endTime":1788.21,"body":"point in the storage and production,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1788.24,"endTime":1790.88,"body":"production and dispose of the fuel."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1791.33,"endTime":1791.9,"body":"So I think."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1792.48,"endTime":1794.94,"body":"When, when you, again, you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1792.48,"endTime":1794.94,"body":"look at technology selection,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1794.94,"endTime":1796.139,"body":"you've gotta look at all that"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1796.35,"endTime":1796.65,"body":"and that."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1796.65,"endTime":1798.21,"body":"That's another net worth value, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1798.27,"endTime":1801.06,"body":"Well, it's all just about"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1798.27,"endTime":1801.06,"body":"the value in the moment."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1801.06,"endTime":1803.34,"body":"It's about how do you create that?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1803.34,"endTime":1804.51,"body":"What does it leave behind?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1804.51,"endTime":1805.895,"body":"The legacy and all those sorts of things."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1806.014,"endTime":1806.215,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1806.91,"endTime":1809.73,"body":"that's one of the things, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1806.91,"endTime":1809.73,"body":"mean, first thing is to say, actually we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1809.73,"endTime":1811.32,"body":"talk about SMR Small Modular reactors."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1811.62,"endTime":1812.31,"body":"The first thing is it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1812.565,"endTime":1816.765,"body":"People don't think generally understand"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1812.565,"endTime":1816.765,"body":"is really what that should refer to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1816.765,"endTime":1820.155,"body":"is the size of the reactor itself and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1816.765,"endTime":1820.155,"body":"the whole concept that you should be"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1820.155,"endTime":1824.115,"body":"able to produce the reactor offsite in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1820.155,"endTime":1824.115,"body":"a factory and then bring the reactor"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1824.115,"endTime":1827.115,"body":"to the site, thus saving huge amount"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1824.115,"endTime":1827.115,"body":"of the work and effort and increasing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1827.115,"endTime":1828.555,"body":"the quality and so on of the reactor."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1828.975,"endTime":1831.675,"body":"That's a good aspiration, but that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1828.975,"endTime":1831.675,"body":"doesn't mean that you have to have"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1831.675,"endTime":1833.385,"body":"lots of small nuclear power stations."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1833.595,"endTime":1834.795,"body":"That just means the reactors small."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1835.199,"endTime":1838.709,"body":"So one of the big questions here, is it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1835.199,"endTime":1838.709,"body":"a good idea to actually say, suddenly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1838.709,"endTime":1841.23,"body":"going right back to the beginning"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1838.709,"endTime":1841.23,"body":"of our conversations in some way?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1841.47,"endTime":1844.47,"body":"I'll tell you what, we'll distribute"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1841.47,"endTime":1844.47,"body":"power from a green source by having"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1844.47,"endTime":1845.399,"body":"all these small budget reactors."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1845.399,"endTime":1847.83,"body":"And I think this was generally the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1845.399,"endTime":1847.83,"body":"concept people had in their head."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1847.83,"endTime":1847.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1848.1,"endTime":1849.54,"body":"Is they'll be scattered around the place."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1849.54,"endTime":1853.139,"body":"But my real question"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1849.54,"endTime":1853.139,"body":"with that is yes, okay."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1853.439,"endTime":1857.1,"body":"But fundamentally, you know, that's not"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1853.439,"endTime":1857.1,"body":"gonna be as economical per kilowatt hour"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1857.1,"endTime":1859.379,"body":"when it comes down to it because you're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1857.1,"endTime":1859.379,"body":"gonna be building loads of different"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1859.379,"endTime":1860.82,"body":"power stations as opposed to a single one."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1861.149,"endTime":1862.379,"body":"So that's a problem is in."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1862.94,"endTime":1869.21,"body":"First case and second about that is, you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1862.94,"endTime":1869.21,"body":"know, think about just the regulation and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1869.21,"endTime":1873.8,"body":"the planning and the approvals and the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1869.21,"endTime":1873.8,"body":"environmental and the, the neighboring"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1873.8,"endTime":1875.18,"body":"issues and all the thing in the planning."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1875.18,"endTime":1876.02,"body":"It well"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":1876.02,"endTime":1877.31,"body":"be 90% of the cost."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1878.09,"endTime":1878.45,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1878.575,"endTime":1880.61,"body":"With, with the many distributed places."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1881.03,"endTime":1884.75,"body":"In fact, you, what you should think of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1881.03,"endTime":1884.75,"body":"is, again, go back to the, go back to what"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1884.75,"endTime":1886.73,"body":"it says, which is the small modular act."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1886.73,"endTime":1890.36,"body":"It's only the reactor you're referring to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1886.73,"endTime":1890.36,"body":"in that, and therefore you could group."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1890.615,"endTime":1891.455,"body":"30 reactors."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1891.455,"endTime":1895.145,"body":"Most of the, the ones that are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1891.455,"endTime":1895.145,"body":"going forward now in the US are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1895.235,"endTime":1899.645,"body":"using multiple reactors on a single"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1895.235,"endTime":1899.645,"body":"site, but tendencies, 2, 3, 4, 5."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1900.455,"endTime":1901.715,"body":"Actually, they're not"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1900.455,"endTime":1901.715,"body":"odd numbers, but anyway."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1901.715,"endTime":1902.524,"body":"Twos from fours."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1902.915,"endTime":1903.095,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1903.125,"endTime":1903.545,"body":"Sixes."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1904.235,"endTime":1905.915,"body":"Um, in a site."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1906.125,"endTime":1908.915,"body":"Uh, but I mean, there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1906.125,"endTime":1908.915,"body":"no real limit to that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1908.975,"endTime":1914.615,"body":"So you can make up your traditional, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1908.975,"endTime":1914.615,"body":"say traditional scale, uh, power station"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1914.615,"endTime":1919.325,"body":"of, um, three gigawatts, or I mean"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1914.615,"endTime":1919.325,"body":"hinckley's three and a half, I think it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1919.325,"endTime":1923.375,"body":"is gigawatts, um, with uh, with small"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1919.325,"endTime":1923.375,"body":"ones, your access if you wanted to."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1923.375,"endTime":1927.095,"body":"So there's a different way of looking"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1923.375,"endTime":1927.095,"body":"at it and consolidating them, but using"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1927.095,"endTime":1928.175,"body":"them as small scale for the building."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1928.175,"endTime":1931.025,"body":"So we don't know what the exact"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1928.175,"endTime":1931.025,"body":"balancing factor, but firstly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1931.025,"endTime":1932.195,"body":"it's a bit of a misnomer."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1932.195,"endTime":1933.095,"body":"Small mod act, not."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1933.095,"endTime":1935.58,"body":"For the reactor, but for the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1933.095,"endTime":1935.58,"body":"power station size of it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1936.12,"endTime":1939.929,"body":"And secondly, the, the question is,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1936.12,"endTime":1939.929,"body":"well, which ones of the technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1939.929,"endTime":1941.129,"body":"are gonna be acceptable going forward?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1941.129,"endTime":1946.32,"body":"And, um, from a, a safety"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1941.129,"endTime":1946.32,"body":"versus cost of, of energy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1946.699,"endTime":1947.27,"body":"Point of view."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1947.57,"endTime":1949.729,"body":"Because the trouble is if you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1947.57,"endTime":1949.729,"body":"offer a nuclear, people say, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1949.729,"endTime":1950.719,"body":"just want a hundred percent safety."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1950.719,"endTime":1952.76,"body":"And you go, well, that has a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1950.719,"endTime":1952.76,"body":"certain cost associated with it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1953.389,"endTime":1955.31,"body":"99.9999% safety."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1955.31,"endTime":1955.399,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1956.179,"endTime":1960.709,"body":"And the other thing is, as you rightly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1956.179,"endTime":1960.709,"body":"pointed out earlier, traditionally"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1961.34,"endTime":1962.719,"body":"there's a traditional fuel."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1963.02,"endTime":1967.16,"body":"Uh, provision, uh, in Richmond uranium"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1963.02,"endTime":1967.16,"body":"and so on and type of production of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1967.16,"endTime":1970.94,"body":"fuel rods and the way that they are,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1967.16,"endTime":1970.94,"body":"uh, appro, reprocessed and stored."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1971.33,"endTime":1974.78,"body":"Do we fit into that industry or do we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1971.33,"endTime":1974.78,"body":"create a whole new industry where actually"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1974.78,"endTime":1977.42,"body":"a lot more of the work that's done in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1974.78,"endTime":1977.42,"body":"the nuclear power station currently is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1977.42,"endTime":1981.875,"body":"actually done offsite and super sector"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1977.42,"endTime":1981.875,"body":"sort places elsewhere, and not in the, in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1981.879,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"the central thing, but this, this, this is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1981.879,"endTime":1987.47,"body":"what, you know, those kind of questions,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1987.62,"endTime":1989.899,"body":"again, many more people could contribute."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1990.665,"endTime":1995.315,"body":"Uh, to that debate, but that's a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1990.665,"endTime":1995.315,"body":"debate that needs to be understood."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1995.315,"endTime":1997.925,"body":"And we've got to stop having"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1995.315,"endTime":1997.925,"body":"people saying, it's okay."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1997.925,"endTime":1999.035,"body":"We'll put an SMR there."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1999.035,"endTime":2001.645,"body":"It's just not, that is just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1999.035,"endTime":2001.645,"body":"not the sophistication."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2001.645,"endTime":2004.405,"body":"Debate isn't high enough"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2001.645,"endTime":2004.405,"body":"for, so I think, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2004.405,"endTime":2005.515,"body":"that's a"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2004.405,"endTime":2005.515,"body":"general point, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2005.52,"endTime":2011.515,"body":"Is it we need a much more sophisticated,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2005.52,"endTime":2011.515,"body":"uh, layered debate about this and not, not"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2011.515,"endTime":2016.645,"body":"very simple, small nuclear's gonna do it,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2011.515,"endTime":2016.645,"body":"or hydrogen's good or hydrogen's bad, or."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2017.745,"endTime":2018.675,"body":"Yeah, no, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2018.735,"endTime":2019.875,"body":"Um, um, no."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2019.965,"endTime":2023.264,"body":"So I suppose the question is how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2019.965,"endTime":2023.264,"body":"does, how does, how does, how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2023.264,"endTime":2024.885,"body":"does that debate get stimulated?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2025.125,"endTime":2025.334,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2025.395,"endTime":2026.685,"body":"Where does it get stimulated?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2027.195,"endTime":2032.205,"body":"Um, where does it get, um, where"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2027.195,"endTime":2032.205,"body":"does it get, uh, effectively, um,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2032.625,"endTime":2035.385,"body":"um, contained well in what political."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2036.04,"endTime":2040.51,"body":"In what political, uh, uh, construct"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2036.04,"endTime":2040.51,"body":"is it, is that debate to be had?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2040.72,"endTime":2043.84,"body":"Mm. Because the, the problem is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2040.72,"endTime":2043.84,"body":"you could see it as being this has"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2043.84,"endTime":2045.34,"body":"being such an important subject."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2045.52,"endTime":2049.42,"body":"You could see it as being, uh, quite"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2045.52,"endTime":2049.42,"body":"politically, uh, you know, influential."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2049.51,"endTime":2051.34,"body":"Well, it is politically charged."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2051.37,"endTime":2051.52,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2051.67,"endTime":2053.2,"body":"So, but is it done highly centrally?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2053.62,"endTime":2056.409,"body":"Is it done at a, is it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2053.62,"endTime":2056.409,"body":"done at an advisory level?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2056.77,"endTime":2062.65,"body":"You know, what, what level of, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2056.77,"endTime":2062.65,"body":"what level of, um, uh, what purpose"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2062.74,"endTime":2064.51,"body":"does the debate serve ultimately?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2065.245,"endTime":2069.324,"body":"And I guess, I guess the"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2065.245,"endTime":2069.324,"body":"question as well is there's questions"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2069.324,"endTime":2074.964,"body":"for businesses and who are producers and"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2069.324,"endTime":2074.964,"body":"there's questions for government and um,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2075.58,"endTime":2076.919,"body":"and they might be different questions"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2077.034,"endTime":2079.239,"body":"and questions for"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2077.034,"endTime":2079.239,"body":"businesses as consumers as well."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2079.239,"endTime":2079.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2079.899,"endTime":2080.719,"body":"And s for the consumers."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2080.935,"endTime":2081.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2081.145,"endTime":2085.554,"body":"Uh, looking at the decarbonization of"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2081.145,"endTime":2085.554,"body":"pharmaceutical industry, for instance, is"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2085.554,"endTime":2088.0,"body":"that, uh, that's a good example where, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2089.185,"endTime":2091.825,"body":"A lot of companies are doing a great"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2089.185,"endTime":2091.825,"body":"job in decarbonizing, but they're doing"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2091.825,"endTime":2096.625,"body":"it by buying green electricity off the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2091.825,"endTime":2096.625,"body":"grid, which, which is in short supply."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2096.685,"endTime":2101.365,"body":"So if you take it, if you take it from"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2096.685,"endTime":2101.365,"body":"there for pharmaceuticals, because you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2101.365,"endTime":2105.205,"body":"know they've got the sort of margins on"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2101.365,"endTime":2105.205,"body":"their products and, uh, that are sort of"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2105.205,"endTime":2110.61,"body":"supply chain configuration that allows"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2105.205,"endTime":2110.61,"body":"them to do that, um, then that, that, um,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2110.76,"endTime":2113.155,"body":"instead of perhaps reducing their demand."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2113.59,"endTime":2117.73,"body":"Uh, uh, you've, you've lost the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2113.59,"endTime":2117.73,"body":"opportunity to use that green"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2117.73,"endTime":2119.08,"body":"power, uh, somewhere else."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2119.11,"endTime":2120.73,"body":"Well, I think one of the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2119.11,"endTime":2120.73,"body":"one of the, one of the first problems with"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2120.73,"endTime":2123.55,"body":"that whole pharmaceutical basis, I just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2120.73,"endTime":2123.55,"body":"don't think the general public realize"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2123.55,"endTime":2126.91,"body":"quite what a impact pharmaceuticals"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2123.55,"endTime":2126.91,"body":"have from a color perspective."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2127.21,"endTime":2129.31,"body":"Intensity of pharmaceuticals is sky high."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2129.4,"endTime":2130.03,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2130.03,"endTime":2131.05,"body":"High and um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2132.0,"endTime":2132.39,"body":"It's high."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2132.395,"endTime":2132.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2132.66,"endTime":2132.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2132.9,"endTime":2136.98,"body":"And, um, and uh, they don't, and people"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2132.9,"endTime":2136.98,"body":"just don't necessarily appreciate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2136.98,"endTime":2138.06,"body":"that it's not an obedient thing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2138.06,"endTime":2141.27,"body":"They associated with the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2138.06,"endTime":2141.27,"body":"uh, pack of the tablets."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2141.27,"endTime":2141.87,"body":"They're Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2141.9,"endTime":2142.35,"body":"Consuming."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2142.41,"endTime":2143.73,"body":"It's, it's, got it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2143.73,"endTime":2149.46,"body":"So understanding the context of all,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2143.73,"endTime":2149.46,"body":"um, of the carbon, you know, the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2149.52,"endTime":2154.355,"body":"the hard to get decarbonize areas"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2149.52,"endTime":2154.355,"body":"along with the whole debate of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2154.495,"endTime":2158.64,"body":"of, of distributed or centralized"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2154.495,"endTime":2158.64,"body":"power systems and grids, you know."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2158.995,"endTime":2164.305,"body":"This, this, we somehow, we have to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2158.995,"endTime":2164.305,"body":"get this, uh, level of debate more"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2164.305,"endTime":2168.987,"body":"sophisticated, and, and we have to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2164.305,"endTime":2168.987,"body":"find a, we have to find a, uh, a, a a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2169.405,"endTime":2175.375,"body":"a center or a, um, some sort of fulcrum"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2169.405,"endTime":2175.375,"body":"for this, this, this conversation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2175.825,"endTime":2180.055,"body":"Um, and I'm not, I'm seeing a huge"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2175.825,"endTime":2180.055,"body":"amount of information, but I'm not"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2180.055,"endTime":2182.815,"body":"seeing a huge amount of, um, uh."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2183.52,"endTime":2185.35,"body":"Not interaction and debate."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2186.22,"endTime":2189.279,"body":"With, with, with communicating,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2186.22,"endTime":2189.279,"body":"communicating, understanding."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2189.279,"endTime":2189.339,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2189.339,"endTime":2189.37,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2189.37,"endTime":2190.299,"body":"mean, it's just not there."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2190.299,"endTime":2190.509,"body":"Is it?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2190.93,"endTime":2191.62,"body":"So, yeah."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2191.62,"endTime":2195.399,"body":"To bring this to a close, I mean,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2191.62,"endTime":2195.399,"body":"what I, I'm left what's on in my head."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2195.399,"endTime":2200.29,"body":"I'm left with, with trying to get some"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2195.399,"endTime":2200.29,"body":"shape and understanding of how you work"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2200.29,"endTime":2205.299,"body":"out, what, how you distribute power,"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2200.29,"endTime":2205.299,"body":"what's locally sourced and what's"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2205.299,"endTime":2208.81,"body":"shared and, and, and, and at what level"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2205.299,"endTime":2208.81,"body":"do you share that between countries"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2208.81,"endTime":2211.39,"body":"or localities and that we need some."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2211.99,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"Some rationality about, about"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2211.99,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"that model, that evolving model."},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2216.4,"endTime":2217.18,"body":"What, what are yours?"},{"speaker":"John Dyson","startTime":2217.51,"endTime":2217.99,"body":"Uh, Adrian,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2218.62,"endTime":2221.83,"body":"I, I think the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2218.62,"endTime":2221.83,"body":"debate needs to move away from being"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2221.83,"endTime":2224.02,"body":"a competition between technology."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2224.02,"endTime":2227.29,"body":"So it doesn't make any sense to me"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2224.02,"endTime":2227.29,"body":"that I'm, you know, some people, a pro"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2227.29,"endTime":2230.05,"body":"wind, some people are pronuclear, but."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2230.529,"endTime":2234.46,"body":"If you look at the systems are"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2230.529,"endTime":2234.46,"body":"complex, as we said, and you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2234.46,"endTime":2238.42,"body":"have to be able to pick the right"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2234.46,"endTime":2238.42,"body":"combination for the right situation."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2238.45,"endTime":2242.38,"body":"So it's more about having that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2238.45,"endTime":2242.38,"body":"framework for, for making those"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2242.38,"endTime":2246.13,"body":"decisions rather than arguing"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":2242.38,"endTime":2246.13,"body":"one technology versus another."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2247.509,"endTime":2251.14,"body":"Well, from my perspective,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2247.509,"endTime":2251.14,"body":"just from a, from a personal"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2251.14,"endTime":2252.884,"body":"perspective, we are involved in."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2254.095,"endTime":2259.165,"body":"Uh, designing and developing, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2254.095,"endTime":2259.165,"body":"technologies that are all massively power"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2259.165,"endTime":2261.475,"body":"hungry, and it's a bit like needing to."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2262.075,"endTime":2264.174,"body":"To do something about clean"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2262.075,"endTime":2264.174,"body":"up your own mess, really?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2264.174,"endTime":2264.325,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2264.475,"endTime":2268.134,"body":"It's, it's one thing to produce a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2264.475,"endTime":2268.134,"body":"a demand and that demands for all"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2268.134,"endTime":2273.025,"body":"sorts of great reasons in terms of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2268.134,"endTime":2273.025,"body":"you say pharmaceuticals or, uh, hard"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2273.025,"endTime":2275.875,"body":"to de carbonate, make sure we can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2273.025,"endTime":2275.875,"body":"keep flying effectively and so on."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2275.904,"endTime":2278.665,"body":"All these things are, are, are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2275.904,"endTime":2278.665,"body":"great thing to contribute to, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2278.665,"endTime":2283.075,"body":"at the same time, it's uh, mass"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2278.665,"endTime":2283.075,"body":"creating an enormous energy demand."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2283.585,"endTime":2286.735,"body":"What feels compelled to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2283.585,"endTime":2286.735,"body":"do something about that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2286.735,"endTime":2292.315,"body":"And, uh, I guess, uh, one of the questions"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2286.735,"endTime":2292.315,"body":"is what is the forum for the debate to,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2292.495,"endTime":2293.965,"body":"that links all these things together?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2294.685,"endTime":2297.025,"body":"Because at the moment it feels"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2294.685,"endTime":2297.025,"body":"like there's a lot of lobbies."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2297.655,"endTime":2297.895,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2297.895,"endTime":2302.545,"body":"A lot of lobbying and, and, and they're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2297.895,"endTime":2302.545,"body":"lobbying to, in certain instances, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2302.545,"endTime":2305.905,"body":"I don't mean to be disparaging about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2302.545,"endTime":2305.905,"body":"it, but to the ill-informed, so there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2305.905,"endTime":2309.655,"body":"a, there's a lack of information held"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2305.905,"endTime":2309.655,"body":"centrally or knowledge held centrally."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2310.015,"endTime":2312.745,"body":"And there's a lot of, uh, lobby"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2310.015,"endTime":2312.745,"body":"groups that have been distorted"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2312.745,"endTime":2313.855,"body":"by commercial interests."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2313.855,"endTime":2317.845,"body":"And somehow we need to diminish the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2313.855,"endTime":2317.845,"body":"power of the commercial interest lobby."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2318.345,"endTime":2323.925,"body":"Um, and we need to increase the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2318.345,"endTime":2323.925,"body":"the understanding centrally held so"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2323.925,"endTime":2329.445,"body":"that this, there can be a, a forum"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2323.925,"endTime":2329.445,"body":"that allows exactly what Adrian said"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2329.445,"endTime":2333.705,"body":"for the competition between these"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2329.445,"endTime":2333.705,"body":"parties to reduce so that we can make"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2333.705,"endTime":2337.71,"body":"a more, I won't say orderly transition"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2333.705,"endTime":2337.71,"body":"towards a decarbonized vision."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2337.91,"endTime":2341.475,"body":"'cause it is not less"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2337.91,"endTime":2341.475,"body":"disorderly, less disorderly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2341.705,"endTime":2347.134,"body":"Advance towards, uh, decarbonized world"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":2341.705,"endTime":2347.134,"body":"and the elimination of fossil fuels."}]}