{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":1.29,"endTime":3.54,"body":"Welcome to the Bryden Wood Podcast."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":4.23,"endTime":8.01,"body":"Bryden Wood is a global"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":4.23,"endTime":8.01,"body":"strategy and design consultancy."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":8.58,"endTime":15.06,"body":"We are inventive thinkers, designers,"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":8.58,"endTime":15.06,"body":"engineers, and technical experts."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":15.87,"endTime":20.37,"body":"We integrate creativity and deep"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":15.87,"endTime":20.37,"body":"experience to resolve complex"},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":20.37,"endTime":23.82,"body":"challenges and realize a better world."},{"speaker":"Intro","startTime":24.39,"endTime":26.641,"body":"Find us at Bryden Wood dot com."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":27.615,"endTime":29.265,"body":"Welcome"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":27.615,"endTime":29.265,"body":"to Bryden Wood Podcast."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":29.265,"endTime":34.574,"body":"Uh, I'm Martin Wood and I'm joined"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":29.265,"endTime":34.574,"body":"by Adrian La Porta Uh, we're here"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":34.574,"endTime":40.605,"body":"to discuss, uh, the hard yards"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":34.574,"endTime":40.605,"body":"decarbonization, as we call it, uh, in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":40.605,"endTime":42.855,"body":"light of the Climate Change Committee's."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":42.915,"endTime":46.455,"body":"Um, report to the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":42.915,"endTime":46.455,"body":"government parliament today."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":47.144,"endTime":51.945,"body":"Um, we are highlighting the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":47.144,"endTime":51.945,"body":"fact that whilst the report, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":51.974,"endTime":53.265,"body":"contains a lot of really valuable."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":54.045,"endTime":59.265,"body":"Um, uh, ideas, information, and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":54.045,"endTime":59.265,"body":"demonstrates the progress since the 1990s"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":59.265,"endTime":62.025,"body":"in decarbonization generally of the uk."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":62.745,"endTime":67.875,"body":"Um, the challenge now really for net"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":62.745,"endTime":67.875,"body":"zero is to address, um, some of the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":67.905,"endTime":72.795,"body":"much more difficult to reach areas of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":67.905,"endTime":72.795,"body":"decarbonization, where electrification,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":72.795,"endTime":78.045,"body":"for example, is not the obvious solution"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":72.795,"endTime":78.045,"body":"and, uh, other solutions are required."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":78.195,"endTime":83.925,"body":"So, um, on that point, really, I."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":78.195,"endTime":83.925,"body":"Firstly, we should outline what we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":83.925,"endTime":86.685,"body":"mean by the hard to decarbonization."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":87.015,"endTime":90.165,"body":"Um, Adrian, can you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":87.015,"endTime":90.165,"body":"gimme some thoughts on,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":90.165,"endTime":95.805,"body":"um, so, uh, uh, I guess"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":90.165,"endTime":95.805,"body":"the, the sectors, what we normally mean"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":95.835,"endTime":102.555,"body":"by hard to decarbonize would include iron,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":95.835,"endTime":102.555,"body":"steel, cement, concrete, uh, chemicals,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":102.735,"endTime":105.675,"body":"uh, and heavy transport, uh, aviation."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":106.335,"endTime":107.025,"body":"Uh, so quite"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":107.025,"endTime":107.235,"body":"a lot"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":107.235,"endTime":107.655,"body":"to go at."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":108.045,"endTime":111.615,"body":"The reason I guess we are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":108.045,"endTime":111.615,"body":"here today talking about, it's because we,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":112.515,"endTime":117.675,"body":"Bryden Wood, were involved in significant"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":112.515,"endTime":117.675,"body":"number of new technologies and investments"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":117.675,"endTime":120.555,"body":"in the sector of, uh, decarbonization."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":120.645,"endTime":126.765,"body":"And the only issue, uh, is whilst that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":120.645,"endTime":126.765,"body":"obviously tremendous to stimulate the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":127.515,"endTime":130.935,"body":"uh, development of these new technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":127.515,"endTime":130.935,"body":"and the scaling of these new technologies,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":131.025,"endTime":136.245,"body":"um, investment in these technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":131.025,"endTime":136.245,"body":"are very individually motivated effort."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":136.605,"endTime":137.025,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":137.595,"endTime":142.485,"body":"Obviously, obviously for commercially"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":137.595,"endTime":142.485,"body":"gain of the investors naturally."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":142.485,"endTime":147.885,"body":"But, um, the question really is,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":142.485,"endTime":147.885,"body":"this is obviously a, a group effort."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":147.885,"endTime":151.875,"body":"It's a team effort and it requires,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":147.885,"endTime":151.875,"body":"um, the right technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":151.875,"endTime":153.075,"body":"to develop at the right rate."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":153.075,"endTime":153.945,"body":"Some of them will."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":155.025,"endTime":159.465,"body":"Through and become, uh, mainstays of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":155.025,"endTime":159.465,"body":"decarbonization, although all sort"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":159.465,"endTime":161.025,"body":"of wither on the vine as they go."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":161.115,"endTime":165.525,"body":"And, um, one of the questions is really to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":161.115,"endTime":165.525,"body":"try and contextualize these different new"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":165.525,"endTime":170.505,"body":"technologies so that we get some sense of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":165.525,"endTime":170.505,"body":"um, their overall value in the network of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":170.505,"endTime":175.575,"body":"decarbonization rather than just in and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":170.505,"endTime":175.575,"body":"of themselves, something that concerns"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":175.575,"endTime":180.585,"body":"us because, um, it's, it's one thing to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":175.575,"endTime":180.585,"body":"work on individual technologies, but it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":180.585,"endTime":181.845,"body":"another thing to understand what they're."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":183.075,"endTime":186.615,"body":"Contribution is to the overall,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":183.075,"endTime":186.615,"body":"um, decarbonization effort."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":187.305,"endTime":187.725,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":187.725,"endTime":192.285,"body":"And, um, there's a, there's a perhaps"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":187.725,"endTime":192.285,"body":"a point that comes before that, which"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":192.285,"endTime":197.475,"body":"is we are looking at technologies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":192.285,"endTime":197.475,"body":"at different stages of development,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":197.625,"endTime":200.595,"body":"sort of mid TRL level typically."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":201.105,"endTime":203.145,"body":"Um, and, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":204.0,"endTime":207.06,"body":"We have to look at the timescales"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":204.0,"endTime":207.06,"body":"in which we need to achieve these"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":207.09,"endTime":208.859,"body":"productions in decarbonization."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":209.34,"endTime":210.96,"body":"Um, 2050."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":210.96,"endTime":217.68,"body":"2030 Often used as, uh, as benchmarks"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":210.96,"endTime":217.68,"body":"for different, uh, technologies, but,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":217.77,"endTime":219.69,"body":"um, we kinda need to get on with it."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":219.9,"endTime":224.25,"body":"So, so, uh, uh, there is, um, a."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":226.41,"endTime":231.09,"body":"Requirement, a pressure on us to, to use"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":226.41,"endTime":231.09,"body":"the technologies that we have and get"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":231.09,"endTime":233.49,"body":"things into operation and working now."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":234.36,"endTime":240.09,"body":"Um, but coming back to your point,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":234.36,"endTime":240.09,"body":"uh, we do, um, look at individual"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":240.27,"endTime":244.44,"body":"companies technologies, and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":240.27,"endTime":244.44,"body":"that's, uh, often through the,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":244.89,"endTime":247.11,"body":"the lens of a capital investment."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":247.83,"endTime":251.64,"body":"Um, but a lot of these, um,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":247.83,"endTime":251.64,"body":"technologies, when we're looking"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":251.64,"endTime":253.59,"body":"at basic chemicals or fuels."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":254.115,"endTime":258.975,"body":"They don't sit very well"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":254.115,"endTime":258.975,"body":"as standalone investments."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":259.515,"endTime":265.995,"body":"So, uh, if we look at the current,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":259.515,"endTime":265.995,"body":"um, environment for fuels and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":265.995,"endTime":270.885,"body":"chemicals, they come from highly"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":265.995,"endTime":270.885,"body":"integrated refineries, for instance."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":270.975,"endTime":276.375,"body":"Uh, and that those highly integrated"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":270.975,"endTime":276.375,"body":"systems have been built up and perfected"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":276.375,"endTime":280.365,"body":"over decades, uh, over a century, I guess."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":280.515,"endTime":282.075,"body":"And, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":283.485,"endTime":288.555,"body":"When we look at, for instance, aviation"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":283.485,"endTime":288.555,"body":"fuel coming from a new technology, does"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":288.555,"endTime":293.085,"body":"it really make sense to look at that as"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":288.555,"endTime":293.085,"body":"a standalone single product facility, or"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":293.085,"endTime":300.225,"body":"does it have to be part of an integrated"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":293.085,"endTime":300.225,"body":"system to be more economically viable?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":300.885,"endTime":304.125,"body":"Yeah, I mean, so one"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":300.885,"endTime":304.125,"body":"of the things that we're often"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":304.155,"endTime":307.755,"body":"needed to be achieved in the hard to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":304.155,"endTime":307.755,"body":"decarbonization sectors is, is areas"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":307.755,"endTime":309.405,"body":"where electrification simply isn't gonna."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":309.645,"endTime":310.635,"body":"It isn't gonna work."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":310.635,"endTime":316.034,"body":"So for example, uh, transportation, those"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":310.635,"endTime":316.034,"body":"sectors, as we said are aviation where"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":316.034,"endTime":321.585,"body":"we know that, um, batteries, uh, are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":316.034,"endTime":321.585,"body":"in no reasonable timescale are going to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":321.585,"endTime":327.435,"body":"be able to be, uh, high enough density"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":321.585,"endTime":327.435,"body":"energy sources for, um, for aviation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":327.435,"endTime":331.875,"body":"Therefore, we're looking for alternatives,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":327.435,"endTime":331.875,"body":"which is, uh, sustainable aviation fuel"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":331.875,"endTime":334.965,"body":"as a term of the moment, which we can"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":331.875,"endTime":334.965,"body":"be burnt in relatively conventional"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":335.865,"endTime":337.275,"body":"unmodified engines and mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":337.515,"endTime":337.995,"body":"Aviation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":337.995,"endTime":338.775,"body":"So effectively, uh."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":339.585,"endTime":343.094,"body":"Replacement for, for, for"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":339.585,"endTime":343.094,"body":"hydrocarbon kerosenes."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":343.965,"endTime":349.455,"body":"Um, and there's a number of pathways to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":343.965,"endTime":349.455,"body":"achieving, um, sustainable aviation fuel."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":349.905,"endTime":354.284,"body":"I know, Adrian, do you want to talk about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":349.905,"endTime":354.284,"body":"some of those obvious pathways to, to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":354.315,"endTime":356.895,"body":"saf and you know, how they, how we might."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":357.45,"endTime":359.64,"body":"They might be balanced with"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":357.45,"endTime":359.64,"body":"each other to create the best"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":359.76,"endTime":361.83,"body":"and most economic route to saf."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":361.89,"endTime":364.5,"body":"And that's a, it's a, a very"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":361.89,"endTime":364.5,"body":"broad question, but, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":364.559,"endTime":367.38,"body":"well, as, as you, as"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":364.559,"endTime":367.38,"body":"you know, we've been working on a number"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":367.38,"endTime":373.619,"body":"of, uh, uh, biogenic, uh, routes to"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":367.38,"endTime":373.619,"body":"aviation, sustainable aviation fuel."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":374.25,"endTime":379.349,"body":"Um, and, um, it, it seems likely that, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":379.919,"endTime":384.104,"body":"Uh, biogenic, um, sustainable"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":379.919,"endTime":384.104,"body":"aviation fuel is, is gonna be a,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":384.51,"endTime":389.25,"body":"a big part of what we, we use in"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":384.51,"endTime":389.25,"body":"the early stages of, uh, of saf."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":389.429,"endTime":393.239,"body":"Um, and then there's an another"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":389.429,"endTime":393.239,"body":"classification, which I think"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":393.239,"endTime":394.919,"body":"some people refer to as E fuels."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":395.34,"endTime":398.25,"body":"Um, the, uh, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":399.63,"endTime":407.429,"body":"Almost, uh, magical process of turning"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":399.63,"endTime":407.429,"body":"CO2 back into useful fuel through the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":407.909,"endTime":410.19,"body":"use of fairly liberal amounts of energy."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":410.369,"endTime":413.7,"body":"Uh, which, uh, I think the way I've"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":410.369,"endTime":413.7,"body":"described that, uh, suggests I might be"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":413.7,"endTime":416.13,"body":"somewhat skeptical about that, that arena."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":416.76,"endTime":421.95,"body":"Um, so, um, to answer your question,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":416.76,"endTime":421.95,"body":"yeah, we, we are looking at different, uh."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":422.295,"endTime":424.545,"body":"Biogenic roots primarily at the moment."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":425.235,"endTime":430.095,"body":"Um, and the interesting, and an"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":425.235,"endTime":430.095,"body":"interesting factor about all of"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":430.095,"endTime":435.495,"body":"these biogenic, uh, roots is that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":430.095,"endTime":435.495,"body":"it's a fundamentally different,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":435.795,"endTime":438.225,"body":"uh, way of looking at feedstocks."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":438.675,"endTime":441.075,"body":"So for, for all of these, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":441.42,"endTime":445.14,"body":"Uh, sources of carbon, the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":441.42,"endTime":445.14,"body":"feedstocks are very widely"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":445.17,"endTime":450.33,"body":"distributed, so we, um, compared"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":445.17,"endTime":450.33,"body":"to, um, an oil field, for instance."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":450.66,"endTime":453.66,"body":"So we have a, a new paradigm of."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":454.2,"endTime":458.099,"body":"Technology deployment or plant deployment"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":454.2,"endTime":458.099,"body":"that we have to, to understand."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":458.19,"endTime":463.469,"body":"So because we have to collect all this"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":458.19,"endTime":463.469,"body":"material together, um, to, uh, to process"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":463.469,"endTime":468.45,"body":"it and, and turn it into fuel, and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":463.469,"endTime":468.45,"body":"that's, uh, an economic, um, dimension"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":468.45,"endTime":471.87,"body":"that we haven't had to, to think about,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":468.45,"endTime":471.87,"body":"I think with, uh, conventional fuels."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":472.229,"endTime":472.59,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":473.28,"endTime":477.09,"body":"yeah, it's, it's quite"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":473.28,"endTime":477.09,"body":"interesting you mentioned the, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":478.469,"endTime":482.849,"body":"The e fuel argument because a lot"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":478.469,"endTime":482.849,"body":"of these, uh, pathways, uh, to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":482.849,"endTime":486.63,"body":"decarbonization just require a vast"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":482.849,"endTime":486.63,"body":"amount of energy to be poured into"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":486.63,"endTime":487.77,"body":"the process in the first place."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":487.77,"endTime":490.32,"body":"And the assumption is that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":487.77,"endTime":490.32,"body":"energy is all green energy."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":490.32,"endTime":494.07,"body":"It's been obtained from"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":490.32,"endTime":494.07,"body":"sustainable because it's been"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":494.07,"endTime":495.539,"body":"obtained from renewables."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":495.69,"endTime":495.93,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":496.77,"endTime":500.7,"body":"Or a nuclear plant or some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":496.77,"endTime":500.7,"body":"decarbonized, uh, energy source."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":500.7,"endTime":503.58,"body":"And um, and that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":500.7,"endTime":503.58,"body":"things that is not necessarily."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":504.795,"endTime":507.135,"body":"Being contextualized"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":504.795,"endTime":507.135,"body":"that well is, yeah, okay."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":507.135,"endTime":510.795,"body":"It's fine to decarbonize, but actually"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":507.135,"endTime":510.795,"body":"where, where are those power sources come"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":510.974,"endTime":514.664,"body":"coming from, and would they actually just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":510.974,"endTime":514.664,"body":"remove those power sources from where"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":514.664,"endTime":520.275,"body":"they should be being used to in a more"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":514.664,"endTime":520.275,"body":"conventional and typical way to, for"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":520.275,"endTime":522.255,"body":"example, light and heat people's homes."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":522.824,"endTime":526.395,"body":"Or for transportation, car"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":522.824,"endTime":526.395,"body":"charging, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":526.395,"endTime":530.775,"body":"So it's coming from somewhere and,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":526.395,"endTime":530.775,"body":"and unless, unless there becomes a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":530.775,"endTime":536.025,"body":"a huge surface of renewable energy,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":530.775,"endTime":536.025,"body":"huge surface of renewable energy, then"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":536.324,"endTime":540.824,"body":"um, it's gonna be quite difficult to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":536.324,"endTime":540.824,"body":"justify the use of that energy for the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":540.824,"endTime":543.795,"body":"production of say, an e fuel for aviation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":543.795,"endTime":545.055,"body":"It seems to us at the moment."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":545.055,"endTime":547.245,"body":"And that's partly where some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":545.055,"endTime":547.245,"body":"of our sinism comes from."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":547.694,"endTime":552.495,"body":"Um, it's interesting the aviation Phil,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":547.694,"endTime":552.495,"body":"because it's being mandated at least."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":552.525,"endTime":554.055,"body":"At least by the eu."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":554.355,"endTime":554.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":554.865,"endTime":560.295,"body":"Um, of the percentage use of of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":554.865,"endTime":560.295,"body":"carbon, uh, neutral fuels within"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":560.295,"endTime":561.765,"body":"a sustainable aviation fuel."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":562.485,"endTime":565.814,"body":"Um, and therefore that's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":562.485,"endTime":565.814,"body":"stimulated by that, which is a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":565.995,"endTime":567.584,"body":"collective governmental action."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":568.125,"endTime":571.755,"body":"Uh, perhaps there are other areas"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":568.125,"endTime":571.755,"body":"where that isn't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":571.755,"endTime":572.475,"body":"the case at the moment."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":572.475,"endTime":575.595,"body":"There needs to be more thought on how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":572.475,"endTime":575.595,"body":"that's gonna be stimulated in the first"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":575.595,"endTime":577.785,"body":"place, because most of these technologies."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":578.865,"endTime":581.775,"body":"Are hard to justify from an"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":578.865,"endTime":581.775,"body":"investment point of view unless"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":581.775,"endTime":583.349,"body":"they're stimulated, uh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":583.849,"endTime":586.844,"body":"Uh, by some mandating process."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":586.935,"endTime":587.115,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":587.115,"endTime":589.275,"body":"It's economically on their own."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":589.425,"endTime":590.084,"body":"It's unlikely."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":590.084,"endTime":594.495,"body":"So standard by aviation fuel perhaps is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":590.084,"endTime":594.495,"body":"a good example because perhaps that's,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":595.005,"endTime":596.535,"body":"uh, an example of doing the right thing."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":596.925,"endTime":597.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":597.194,"endTime":600.405,"body":"But I think there are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":597.194,"endTime":600.405,"body":"other areas where, uh, quite significant"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":600.405,"endTime":605.415,"body":"perhaps people don't realize that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":600.405,"endTime":605.415,"body":"the carbon impact of those, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":606.54,"endTime":610.89,"body":"Those particular sectors, and yet they're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":606.54,"endTime":610.89,"body":"not getting the mandating in the same"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":610.89,"endTime":612.719,"body":"as the same sustainable aviation field."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":612.99,"endTime":614.579,"body":"Yeah, it's"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":612.99,"endTime":614.579,"body":"a, it's an interesting point."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":614.579,"endTime":619.35,"body":"And we, you know, to shift the focus,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":614.579,"endTime":619.35,"body":"we might, uh, consider, uh, cement and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":619.35,"endTime":624.03,"body":"concrete, for instance, uh, uh, two,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":619.35,"endTime":624.03,"body":"two materials close to your heart."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":624.03,"endTime":624.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":624.089,"endTime":624.39,"body":"Close by heart."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":625.53,"endTime":631.439,"body":"Um, but, um, before you respond, I"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":625.53,"endTime":631.439,"body":"think the, the aviation field discussion"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":631.439,"endTime":634.5,"body":"shows how important, uh, government."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":635.13,"endTime":639.089,"body":"Interventionists that, as you say, the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":635.13,"endTime":639.089,"body":"markets as they are currently framed"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":639.089,"endTime":643.439,"body":"are not going to push the progress that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":639.089,"endTime":643.439,"body":"we need fast enough, in my opinion."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":643.92,"endTime":649.35,"body":"So, um, these are big problems"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":643.92,"endTime":649.35,"body":"and complex, uh, societal,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":649.41,"endTime":651.27,"body":"um, and economic problems."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":651.27,"endTime":656.31,"body":"So therefore it does require public"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":651.27,"endTime":656.31,"body":"sector, um, action as well as to"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":656.31,"endTime":659.49,"body":"to frame those markets and, and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":656.31,"endTime":659.49,"body":"push them in the right direction."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":659.694,"endTime":663.385,"body":"So if we take cement and concrete"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":659.694,"endTime":663.385,"body":"for brands for, for, for instance,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":663.475,"endTime":664.855,"body":"what intervention might be needed?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":664.944,"endTime":665.425,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":665.755,"endTime":667.585,"body":"I mean that, that,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":665.755,"endTime":667.585,"body":"that's really this, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":667.585,"endTime":672.925,"body":"almost like how you design mandates"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":667.585,"endTime":672.925,"body":"to, to, to have the best effect."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":673.045,"endTime":673.345,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":673.465,"endTime":678.655,"body":"Um, the, the one, the, this first does"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":673.465,"endTime":678.655,"body":"frustrate me that the cement one, because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":678.655,"endTime":683.215,"body":"I look at, for example, the value of,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":678.655,"endTime":683.215,"body":"um, finished concrete structures of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":683.215,"endTime":687.475,"body":"which we all know how important they are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":683.215,"endTime":687.475,"body":"to us for infrastructure and buildings."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":687.564,"endTime":687.775,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":688.465,"endTime":689.005,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":689.385,"endTime":691.709,"body":"And I think, I think it's actually"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":689.385,"endTime":691.709,"body":"broadly understood by people that,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":691.715,"endTime":695.115,"body":"that, that there's, there's an"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":691.715,"endTime":695.115,"body":"issue, uh, with the carbon content"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":695.115,"endTime":696.915,"body":"of, um, of these structures."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":697.155,"endTime":700.185,"body":"Uh, I think that's, that's be"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":697.155,"endTime":700.185,"body":"become common knowledge now."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":700.454,"endTime":700.574,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":700.995,"endTime":705.495,"body":"Um, but it, it comes from all across"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":700.995,"endTime":705.495,"body":"the, the area of the structure."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":705.495,"endTime":707.595,"body":"But the, but, but at the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":705.495,"endTime":707.595,"body":"heart of it is the cement that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":707.595,"endTime":708.915,"body":"there's the biggest culprit."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":709.095,"endTime":709.185,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":709.485,"endTime":713.355,"body":"And that's because the cement goes to,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":709.485,"endTime":713.355,"body":"you know, cow signing process and it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":714.405,"endTime":716.715,"body":"Reduces carbon dioxide as part of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":714.405,"endTime":716.715,"body":"the reaction in the first place."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":716.715,"endTime":719.085,"body":"And it also uses vast"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":716.715,"endTime":719.085,"body":"amount of energies to do it."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":719.745,"endTime":719.835,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":719.835,"endTime":724.095,"body":"Um, now both of these can be"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":719.835,"endTime":724.095,"body":"cleaned up, uh, to an extent,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":724.155,"endTime":725.63,"body":"not entirely, but to mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":725.635,"endTime":729.945,"body":"To, to within cement production, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":725.635,"endTime":729.945,"body":"it just takes very large investment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":729.945,"endTime":733.83,"body":"and people go, well, it, it, it would"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":729.945,"endTime":733.83,"body":"seem, it seems like massive investment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":734.13,"endTime":738.435,"body":"for the cement manufacturer, and it"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":734.13,"endTime":738.435,"body":"would likely cause the cement to be."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":739.2,"endTime":740.61,"body":"Significantly more expensive."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":741.0,"endTime":744.06,"body":"Having said that, if you think about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":741.0,"endTime":744.06,"body":"the cement as a component of the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":744.06,"endTime":747.75,"body":"overall cost of a structure or of a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":744.06,"endTime":747.75,"body":"of a, of a building structure or of a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":747.87,"endTime":753.84,"body":"road structure or a railway, whatever"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":747.87,"endTime":753.84,"body":"structure, the, um, cost of a cement,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":753.84,"endTime":759.39,"body":"if it was quadrupled, would be quite"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":753.84,"endTime":759.39,"body":"negligible compared to the absolute"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":759.39,"endTime":761.13,"body":"overall outturn cost of that structure."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":761.13,"endTime":765.63,"body":"So therefore, you could effectively"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":761.13,"endTime":765.63,"body":"mandate the, um, reduction"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":765.63,"endTime":766.77,"body":"in the carbon of cements."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":767.714,"endTime":772.035,"body":"And you could, um, have quite a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":767.714,"endTime":772.035,"body":"profound effect and actually not as big"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":772.035,"endTime":775.125,"body":"effect financially as, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":772.035,"endTime":775.125,"body":"overall outcome as people may think."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":775.574,"endTime":777.435,"body":"So it, it, there's a question."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":777.435,"endTime":781.395,"body":"There is, but how do you get, how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":777.435,"endTime":781.395,"body":"does, how, how can that be constructed?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":781.785,"endTime":782.354,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":782.474,"endTime":784.905,"body":"That, that either"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":782.474,"endTime":784.905,"body":"incentivization or mandating."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":784.905,"endTime":785.984,"body":"So of course there's two things there."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":785.984,"endTime":789.555,"body":"We, we, that's an important point"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":785.984,"endTime":789.555,"body":"in itself, you know, is this a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":789.854,"endTime":791.16,"body":"carrot or stick approach, you know?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":791.16,"endTime":791.439,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":791.745,"endTime":794.415,"body":"Can you, can you put in places"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":791.745,"endTime":794.415,"body":"which encourage people to do"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":794.415,"endTime":796.275,"body":"it, like carbon sequestration?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":796.964,"endTime":800.324,"body":"Where you get paid for, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":796.964,"endTime":800.324,"body":"amount of carbon you sequestered, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":800.385,"endTime":805.064,"body":"most, uh, significant economies have now"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":800.385,"endTime":805.064,"body":"put those in place in some way or other."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":805.069,"endTime":805.15,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":805.604,"endTime":810.255,"body":"And that's an incentivization thing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":805.604,"endTime":810.255,"body":"And other things, areas where they're"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":810.255,"endTime":814.035,"body":"just going to mandate, for example,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":810.255,"endTime":814.035,"body":"sustainability, aviation, fuel safety."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":814.035,"endTime":814.185,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":814.334,"endTime":817.515,"body":"How do we use this current stick"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":814.334,"endTime":817.515,"body":"approach across all different"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":817.515,"endTime":819.495,"body":"industries to reach the."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":820.125,"endTime":825.435,"body":"Uh, hard to decarbonize areas and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":820.125,"endTime":825.435,"body":"make people want to invest in those"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":825.435,"endTime":829.335,"body":"technologies, uh, leading technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":825.435,"endTime":829.335,"body":"to make that happen more quickly, because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":829.335,"endTime":837.405,"body":"otherwise they won't keep pace with the,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":829.335,"endTime":837.405,"body":"i I hate to say simpler challenge of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":838.515,"endTime":841.575,"body":"vast electrification of transportation."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":841.575,"endTime":845.145,"body":"That's a big enough, big enough, but,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":841.575,"endTime":845.145,"body":"but, but they'll get left behind."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":845.235,"endTime":845.415,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":845.475,"endTime":846.555,"body":"And we'll effectively."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":846.9,"endTime":848.37,"body":"Fail to meet the net zero targets."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":848.46,"endTime":850.11,"body":"Yeah, I mean, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":850.785,"endTime":855.465,"body":"Again, my personal opinion is, is that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":850.785,"endTime":855.465,"body":"with the speed that we need to move,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":855.465,"endTime":859.485,"body":"then there'll have to be quite a lot of"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":855.465,"endTime":859.485,"body":"stick, um, along with the carrot and,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":859.485,"endTime":863.865,"body":"and probably in the UK there's a sort"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":859.485,"endTime":863.865,"body":"of institutional preference for carrots."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":864.045,"endTime":864.735,"body":"It's not very"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":864.735,"endTime":865.635,"body":"popular at the moment."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":865.695,"endTime":868.035,"body":"Stick's not very"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":865.695,"endTime":868.035,"body":"popular, but, uh, I also think"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":868.035,"endTime":870.645,"body":"of the, um, the plastic bag ban."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":870.9,"endTime":876.24,"body":"And, uh, I think in Ireland they brought"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":870.9,"endTime":876.24,"body":"the plastic bag ban in just as a mandate."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":876.3,"endTime":881.01,"body":"And the UK for many years had had a,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":876.3,"endTime":881.01,"body":"you know, an encouragement and some, a"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":881.31,"endTime":885.33,"body":"quite a lot of carrot and, uh, in the"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":881.31,"endTime":885.33,"body":"end they just had to bring in the stick."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":885.39,"endTime":888.84,"body":"I know it's a long way from"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":885.39,"endTime":888.84,"body":"concrete, but um, at more of a"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":888.84,"endTime":890.61,"body":"political, uh, philosophy point."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":890.61,"endTime":890.88,"body":"Now,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":891.36,"endTime":892.77,"body":"you know, one"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":891.36,"endTime":892.77,"body":"of those things is, you know."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":893.16,"endTime":895.02,"body":"Law, unintended consequences."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":895.02,"endTime":895.86,"body":"So you've just have"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":895.86,"endTime":899.16,"body":"to make sure that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":895.86,"endTime":899.16,"body":"these things are well targeted."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":899.19,"endTime":899.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":899.31,"endTime":902.76,"body":"Almost impossible to avoid"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":899.31,"endTime":902.76,"body":"some unintended consequences."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":903.36,"endTime":903.42,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":903.42,"endTime":907.32,"body":"And, and I, I think that's, I think that,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":903.42,"endTime":907.32,"body":"but the idea that the market will, will"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":907.41,"endTime":909.24,"body":"fix this entirely is cl clearly Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":909.3,"endTime":910.02,"body":"Fairly absurd."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":910.225,"endTime":915.99,"body":"So, um, it's going to need a lot"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":910.225,"endTime":915.99,"body":"more, um, uh, scrutiny each and that,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":915.99,"endTime":922.02,"body":"and that's one of the concerns, I"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":915.99,"endTime":922.02,"body":"guess, is that, how can I, I dunno."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":922.56,"endTime":925.26,"body":"How many, the exact numbers of them are."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":925.26,"endTime":928.59,"body":"But there, there's, there's so many"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":925.26,"endTime":928.59,"body":"different new technologies, um,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":928.8,"endTime":930.3,"body":"competing in space at the moment."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":930.99,"endTime":933.3,"body":"Um, that it's understandably difficult."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":933.54,"endTime":935.04,"body":"I mean, we work in the sector."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":935.1,"endTime":935.34,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":935.67,"endTime":936.925,"body":"But it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":935.67,"endTime":936.925,"body":"difficult for us to get our."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":937.56,"endTime":940.44,"body":"Heads around all the different"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":937.56,"endTime":940.44,"body":"opportunities and options that are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":940.44,"endTime":941.73,"body":"in play at any one point in time."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":941.73,"endTime":942.99,"body":"Because you're not working on all of 'em."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":942.99,"endTime":944.34,"body":"I mean, you're working"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":942.99,"endTime":944.34,"body":"on some of some of them."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":944.34,"endTime":946.74,"body":"So you have to sympathize"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":944.34,"endTime":946.74,"body":"with policy makers."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":946.74,"endTime":947.61,"body":"Oh yes, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":947.61,"endTime":951.75,"body":"And say, well, how on earth is all that"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":947.61,"endTime":951.75,"body":"knowledge gonna reach them without, um,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":951.81,"endTime":956.43,"body":"some sort of debate and some sort of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":951.81,"endTime":956.43,"body":"focus that this is, becomes a common"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":956.43,"endTime":962.88,"body":"theme of our podcast is how to create"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":956.43,"endTime":962.88,"body":"a, um, common source of truth, you know?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":963.45,"endTime":964.89,"body":"Single point of truth really."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":965.07,"endTime":965.46,"body":"I understand."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":965.67,"endTime":968.01,"body":"So that, so that policy makers and"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":965.67,"endTime":968.01,"body":"so can actually draw upon that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":968.01,"endTime":968.07,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":968.07,"endTime":971.67,"body":"And say, well actually these are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":968.07,"endTime":971.67,"body":"the kind of, the, the policies,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":971.67,"endTime":974.37,"body":"these stick policies that we need"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":971.67,"endTime":974.37,"body":"and these are the kind of carrot"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":974.46,"endTime":975.93,"body":"incentivization policies we need."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":975.93,"endTime":979.86,"body":"And these will have the least unintended"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":975.93,"endTime":979.86,"body":"consequences that will go most directly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":979.86,"endTime":981.63,"body":"to the, to the heart of the problem."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":982.62,"endTime":986.85,"body":"I think we see, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":982.62,"endTime":986.85,"body":"we see lots of individual companies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":986.88,"endTime":993.15,"body":"full of very talented people, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":986.88,"endTime":993.15,"body":"passionate about their technology, um,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":993.36,"endTime":998.04,"body":"with great support, but they are still"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":993.36,"endTime":998.04,"body":"single, single technology companies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":998.04,"endTime":1001.43,"body":"as a, as a, um, in our experience."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1001.459,"endTime":1010.52,"body":"And there seems to be a lack of"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1001.459,"endTime":1010.52,"body":"some kind of, um, integrator."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1011.225,"endTime":1012.845,"body":"Type organization."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1012.845,"endTime":1017.435,"body":"I dunno whether that would be a public"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1012.845,"endTime":1017.435,"body":"sector, private sector, or something that"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1017.435,"endTime":1022.745,"body":"needs to be formed from a combination"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1017.435,"endTime":1022.745,"body":"of both that allows you to bring these"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1022.75,"endTime":1029.555,"body":"technologies, technologies together, um,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1022.75,"endTime":1029.555,"body":"to assess them against each other in a."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1030.409,"endTime":1033.829,"body":"Slightly less, uh, commercial"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1030.409,"endTime":1033.829,"body":"pitch way, you know?"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1033.919,"endTime":1038.06,"body":"'cause if you are, if you are, if you're"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1033.919,"endTime":1038.06,"body":"a single technology company, you're"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1038.06,"endTime":1040.909,"body":"gonna pitch that as, as hard as you can."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1040.909,"endTime":1041.45,"body":"That's your job."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1041.51,"endTime":1041.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1041.665,"endTime":1042.484,"body":"But, um."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1043.16,"endTime":1049.01,"body":"If we were back in the 1950s in"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1043.16,"endTime":1049.01,"body":"ICI, would we be, have a more"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1049.01,"endTime":1052.97,"body":"systemic approach of looking at a"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1049.01,"endTime":1052.97,"body":"basket of different technologies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1052.97,"endTime":1054.98,"body":"and how they work with each other."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1055.31,"endTime":1059.0,"body":"Um, 'cause we don't have those kind"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1055.31,"endTime":1059.0,"body":"of chemical companies in the uk."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1059.0,"endTime":1059.09,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1059.48,"endTime":1061.1,"body":"it's interesting what"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1059.48,"endTime":1061.1,"body":"you're, what you're sort of referring"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1061.1,"endTime":1064.58,"body":"to is that is the gap that I think"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1061.1,"endTime":1064.58,"body":"that is, uh, that is concerning us,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1064.58,"endTime":1065.99,"body":"which is that it's one thing to have."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1066.295,"endTime":1068.395,"body":"Um, the Climate Change Committee Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1068.395,"endTime":1070.48,"body":"Change committee, for example,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1068.395,"endTime":1070.48,"body":"which it's kind of up here,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1070.54,"endTime":1071.845,"body":"up here, which is fantastic."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1071.845,"endTime":1075.775,"body":"Making, making all the right"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1071.845,"endTime":1075.775,"body":"kind of statements of intent."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1075.985,"endTime":1076.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1076.225,"endTime":1081.4,"body":"And based on needs and so, and, but, but"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1076.225,"endTime":1081.4,"body":"then there's a bunch of people investing."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1082.129,"endTime":1086.96,"body":"Um, in sometimes something of a spread"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1082.129,"endTime":1086.96,"body":"betting kind of a way in new technologies."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1087.56,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"Um, and then there's a sort of gap in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1087.56,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"between where, where, where the, some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1092.3,"endTime":1096.77,"body":"of the high minded principles and some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1092.3,"endTime":1096.77,"body":"of the actual work on the ground mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1097.01,"endTime":1100.159,"body":"There isn't quite the connection between"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1097.01,"endTime":1100.159,"body":"the two without connecting the two."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1100.58,"endTime":1104.87,"body":"They, um, you know, being out"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1100.58,"endTime":1104.87,"body":"evaluations very difficult to evaluate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1104.87,"endTime":1106.34,"body":"without actually being involved."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1107.19,"endTime":1108.51,"body":"At, uh, at that level."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1108.54,"endTime":1109.02,"body":"So, yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1109.5,"endTime":1113.88,"body":"So I think that's, that's what concerns"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1109.5,"endTime":1113.88,"body":"us really, is the, the gap between"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1113.88,"endTime":1116.49,"body":"the strategy and the execution."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1116.7,"endTime":1117.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1117.09,"endTime":1120.18,"body":"Um, what's happening in the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1117.09,"endTime":1120.18,"body":"middle, that that's where we"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1120.27,"endTime":1121.8,"body":"need to bring that understanding."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1122.37,"endTime":1125.91,"body":"Um, I saying to, and, and that needs"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1122.37,"endTime":1125.91,"body":"to be brought to policy makers."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1125.91,"endTime":1127.71,"body":"That's not, I mean, that's not just us."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1127.71,"endTime":1129.66,"body":"We're just one of the people"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1127.71,"endTime":1129.66,"body":"involved in this area."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1129.66,"endTime":1131.34,"body":"But, but, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1131.675,"endTime":1137.195,"body":"There's a quite, uh, uh, a group of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1131.675,"endTime":1137.195,"body":"people who, um, are posting about"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1137.195,"endTime":1140.735,"body":"these subjects, um, frequently Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1140.735,"endTime":1142.325,"body":"On platforms."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1142.955,"endTime":1146.945,"body":"Um, and, you know, there's some, there's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1142.955,"endTime":1146.945,"body":"some good debates going on there."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1146.945,"endTime":1150.335,"body":"But again, what is the, how,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1146.945,"endTime":1150.335,"body":"how do we collect this thing?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1150.365,"endTime":1150.545,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1150.545,"endTime":1154.235,"body":"Together to, to create the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1150.545,"endTime":1154.235,"body":"fastest progress towards action"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1154.235,"endTime":1157.175,"body":"and the fastest progress towards,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1154.235,"endTime":1157.175,"body":"um, to, towards decarbonization."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1158.24,"endTime":1160.67,"body":"You know, a lot"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1158.24,"endTime":1160.67,"body":"of these sectors as well are not"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1160.67,"endTime":1165.74,"body":"sectors that are well suited to, to"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1160.67,"endTime":1165.74,"body":"small and medium sized enterprises."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1166.04,"endTime":1170.21,"body":"So if you are making fertilizer, for"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1166.04,"endTime":1170.21,"body":"instance, or, or steel, these are,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1170.54,"endTime":1175.67,"body":"these are, uh, not, not businesses you"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1170.54,"endTime":1175.67,"body":"enter with a small amount of capital."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1175.85,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"So they're, they're big concerns"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1175.85,"endTime":1180.26,"body":"that require heavy investment in many"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1180.26,"endTime":1182.57,"body":"years of, of sort of institutional."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1183.08,"endTime":1186.83,"body":"Growth for you in those industries"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1183.08,"endTime":1186.83,"body":"as well, so that that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1186.83,"endTime":1187.945,"body":"a barrier as well, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1187.975,"endTime":1190.61,"body":"Well, and they also"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1187.975,"endTime":1190.61,"body":"have, unfortunately, especially in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1190.61,"endTime":1195.919,"body":"a, in, in a, in, in a current world"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1190.61,"endTime":1195.919,"body":"situation where people are becoming, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1196.294,"endTime":1200.195,"body":"Are slightly concerned about the level"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1196.294,"endTime":1200.195,"body":"of deep globalization that's occurred."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1200.284,"endTime":1200.465,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1200.855,"endTime":1204.125,"body":"They're looking for, for example,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1200.855,"endTime":1204.125,"body":"steel production closer to home."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1204.395,"endTime":1204.635,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1204.875,"endTime":1206.585,"body":"Energy"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1204.875,"endTime":1206.585,"body":"production closer to home."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1207.274,"endTime":1210.965,"body":"And that puts a whole other SLT onto"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1207.274,"endTime":1210.965,"body":"things as well, because, um, uh, you"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1210.965,"endTime":1215.615,"body":"know, perhaps, perhaps the, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1210.965,"endTime":1215.615,"body":"as an opportunity in that, because"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1215.615,"endTime":1218.105,"body":"as, as, uh, facilities are brought."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1218.365,"endTime":1222.445,"body":"Onshore as people call it, for,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1218.365,"endTime":1222.445,"body":"uh, those nations, then obviously"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1222.445,"endTime":1225.415,"body":"they need to be put in place"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1222.445,"endTime":1225.415,"body":"with using newer technologies."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1225.415,"endTime":1227.395,"body":"And those newer technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1225.415,"endTime":1227.395,"body":"should be decarbonizing their"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1227.395,"endTime":1229.165,"body":"own rate, their own right."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1229.165,"endTime":1238.045,"body":"So maybe there's something in the, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1229.165,"endTime":1238.045,"body":"concept of not exporting your, uh, your"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1238.045,"endTime":1240.925,"body":"dirty industries to other countries,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1238.045,"endTime":1240.925,"body":"which has happened in the past."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1240.985,"endTime":1244.405,"body":"So, for example, the reduction"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1240.985,"endTime":1244.405,"body":"in, um, reduction in."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1245.57,"endTime":1251.12,"body":"Uh, the missions of the UK since"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1245.57,"endTime":1251.12,"body":"the 1990s, which the, the Climate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1251.21,"endTime":1255.26,"body":"Change Committee, uh, referred to in"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1251.21,"endTime":1255.26,"body":"their reports today, um, is great."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1255.35,"endTime":1258.8,"body":"But part of that's been, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1255.35,"endTime":1258.8,"body":"achieved by just basically"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1258.8,"endTime":1261.65,"body":"exporting some of your manufacturing"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1258.8,"endTime":1261.65,"body":"industries to other countries."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1261.74,"endTime":1261.92,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1261.92,"endTime":1264.98,"body":"And where the emissions actually"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1261.92,"endTime":1264.98,"body":"may be more extreme than they were,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1264.995,"endTime":1266.72,"body":"they were originally in the, the uk."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1266.84,"endTime":1266.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1266.96,"endTime":1269.57,"body":"It's not accusation just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1266.96,"endTime":1269.57,"body":"a, just probably a fact."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1270.2,"endTime":1272.3,"body":"Um, that's not really a way"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1270.2,"endTime":1272.3,"body":"of addressing the problem."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1272.719,"endTime":1273.83,"body":"Um, properly."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1274.07,"endTime":1280.31,"body":"So, uh, I think in, in, if, if a certain"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1274.07,"endTime":1280.31,"body":"amount of security related onshoring is"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1280.31,"endTime":1284.81,"body":"gonna occur, then at least it should occur"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1280.31,"endTime":1284.81,"body":"in a way which is, um, uh, which has a"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1284.87,"endTime":1286.639,"body":"better carbon profile this time around."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1287.27,"endTime":1290.719,"body":"I mean, that, that,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1287.27,"endTime":1290.719,"body":"uh, opens up a, uh, an interesting"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1290.78,"endTime":1296.0,"body":"technical topic about, uh, scale and, and"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1290.78,"endTime":1296.0,"body":"multiplication, which is, uh, something"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1296.0,"endTime":1302.149,"body":"we, we talk about a lot here and, uh,"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1296.0,"endTime":1302.149,"body":"finding the right scale and ways to, uh."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1302.54,"endTime":1309.665,"body":"Systemize or modularize, uh, technologies"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1302.54,"endTime":1309.665,"body":"is a, is an interesting, um, dimension"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1309.725,"endTime":1313.865,"body":"to this problem, uh, particularly"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1309.725,"endTime":1313.865,"body":"given the feed stop distribution issue"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1313.865,"endTime":1316.054,"body":"that, that, uh, I raised earlier."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1316.235,"endTime":1317.945,"body":"Well, there's a,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1316.235,"endTime":1317.945,"body":"there's an interesting point."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1318.125,"endTime":1322.534,"body":"It's about means very, this is a almost"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1318.125,"endTime":1322.534,"body":"a, uh, too broad a topic, but Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1322.534,"endTime":1322.745,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1322.774,"endTime":1326.195,"body":"There's a topic of, there's a whole"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1322.774,"endTime":1326.195,"body":"topic of the, the, the carbon,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1326.915,"endTime":1328.655,"body":"uh, the transportation carbon."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1329.135,"endTime":1335.945,"body":"Impact of having, uh, super globalized"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1329.135,"endTime":1335.945,"body":"industries where, you know, it, it's"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1335.945,"endTime":1339.995,"body":"been largely done in one or two or"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1335.945,"endTime":1339.995,"body":"three locations around the globe,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1339.995,"endTime":1343.265,"body":"and then it's been distributed from"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1339.995,"endTime":1343.265,"body":"that, that, that particular location."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1343.265,"endTime":1344.375,"body":"I mean, still's a good example."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1344.375,"endTime":1347.285,"body":"It's not, it's not like it's a, not"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1344.375,"endTime":1347.285,"body":"like it's a light material, easy"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1347.285,"endTime":1348.665,"body":"material, particularly to transport."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1348.67,"endTime":1348.79,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1349.33,"endTime":1353.285,"body":"Um, it's just that the investment"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1349.33,"endTime":1353.285,"body":"in the, in the, in the last furnace"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1353.285,"endTime":1354.455,"body":"in the first place is so high."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1355.175,"endTime":1355.715,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1356.284,"endTime":1362.044,"body":"So whether, whether there is going to"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1356.284,"endTime":1362.044,"body":"be, generally speaking a, uh, greater,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1362.344,"endTime":1366.695,"body":"uh, drive towards distribution of, of, of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1362.344,"endTime":1366.695,"body":"energy and production that therefore sort"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1366.695,"endTime":1368.705,"body":"of implies a scaling outta technologies."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1368.794,"endTime":1369.094,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1369.185,"endTime":1373.625,"body":"Rather than scaling up of technologies"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1369.185,"endTime":1373.625,"body":"or whether there's going to be just"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1373.625,"endTime":1377.764,"body":"on the basis of a, because normally"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1373.625,"endTime":1377.764,"body":"the technology, economically, some"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1377.764,"endTime":1383.135,"body":"of these technologies economically,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1377.764,"endTime":1383.135,"body":"most of them react ably to scaling up."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1383.3,"endTime":1383.58,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1384.035,"endTime":1386.765,"body":"So you just go for bigger and bigger"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1384.035,"endTime":1386.765,"body":"and bigger plants effectively."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1386.855,"endTime":1389.165,"body":"It's kind of like the refinery"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1386.855,"endTime":1389.165,"body":"model you mentioned earlier."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1389.165,"endTime":1389.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1390.275,"endTime":1394.715,"body":"Um, that needs to be slightly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1390.275,"endTime":1394.715,"body":"called into question by, uh, both"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1394.805,"endTime":1398.615,"body":"the carbon required transportation,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1394.805,"endTime":1398.615,"body":"transportation bigger to get more"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1398.615,"endTime":1401.555,"body":"difficult, um, and low carbon way."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1402.245,"endTime":1407.465,"body":"And it's also called into question"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1402.245,"endTime":1407.465,"body":"by perhaps being honest about how"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1407.465,"endTime":1409.745,"body":"the sort of tectonic plates have, um."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1410.179,"endTime":1411.59,"body":"Global politics are"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1410.179,"endTime":1411.59,"body":"gonna work in the future."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1411.62,"endTime":1411.709,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1412.49,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"And, uh, security of some of"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1412.49,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"these, um, critical energy"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1416.27,"endTime":1417.53,"body":"and material infrastructures."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1417.83,"endTime":1418.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1418.639,"endTime":1423.08,"body":"Uh, and I think, uh, John Dyson's"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1418.639,"endTime":1423.08,"body":"preparing a, a blog at the moment on"},{"speaker":"Adrian La Porta","startTime":1423.08,"endTime":1425.209,"body":"the subject of scale and, and economics."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1426.169,"endTime":1429.32,"body":"So this is, today"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1426.169,"endTime":1429.32,"body":"was, uh, really a scene setting,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1429.53,"endTime":1435.11,"body":"um, uh, conversation about trying"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1429.53,"endTime":1435.11,"body":"to contextualize the, the, the"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1435.199,"endTime":1437.149,"body":"hard to decarbonize areas that."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1437.524,"endTime":1441.514,"body":"Maybe outside the immediate"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1437.524,"endTime":1441.514,"body":"public perception of, for example,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1441.514,"endTime":1443.764,"body":"electrification of heating"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1441.514,"endTime":1443.764,"body":"or transportation and so on."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1444.514,"endTime":1449.794,"body":"Um, and what we will be doing in further"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1444.514,"endTime":1449.794,"body":"podcasts is to take a bit more slightly"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1449.794,"endTime":1452.375,"body":"deeper dive into things like cement."},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1453.02,"endTime":1458.9,"body":"Agrichemicals, uh, sustainable aviation"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1453.02,"endTime":1458.9,"body":"fuels, um, and we'll introduce, uh,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1458.96,"endTime":1462.38,"body":"guests, um, with more knowledge on"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1458.96,"endTime":1462.38,"body":"the subject than us in many instances,"},{"speaker":"Martin Wood","startTime":1462.83,"endTime":1464.135,"body":"um, to discuss those with us."}]}