271: Heavy Small Talk

In this deeply personal solo episode, Nole explores the complex social dilemma that arises from a simple, ubiquitous question: "Do you have kids?" Drawing inspiration from the book Hope is the First Dose by Dr. W. Lee Warren, Nole discusses the internal tug-of-war between social convenience and honoring the memory of his two sons, Asher and Paxton. He breaks down how he navigates these conversations in different circles, from the firehouse to new friendships, and offers a practical "Tactical Pause" framework for listeners on both sides of a heavy conversation.

Key Discussion Points

• The Three-Question Trap: How standard small talk (How long on the job? Where have you worked? Are you married?) often leads to a "conversational grenade" when the topic of children arises for a grieving parent.
• The Honesty Dilemma: The struggle between giving the "easy" answer (focusing only on living children) and the "honest" answer, which carries the weight of loss but honors the family’s full story.
• The Three Tiers of Connection:
  1. The Acquaintance/Stranger: Navigating interactions with people you may never see again.
  2. The Growing Friendship: Why it’s important to "stop the flow" and share the hard parts of your story early with those who will be in your life.
  3. The Professional Crew: The necessity of situational awareness and vulnerability within a high-stakes team like a fire engine company.
• Authenticity over Comfort: Nole reflects on a recent conviction to be more authentic in his beliefs and history, even if it creates a "tactical pause" or social awkwardness.

The "Tactical Pause" Framework

Nole provides advice for when you inadvertently ask a question that yields a heavy, unexpected response:

1. Take a Tactical Pause: Stop for a few beats. Recognize the weight of the information given.
2. Avoid Clichés: Phrases like "everything happens for a reason" or "they’re in a better place" are often unhelpful in the moment of disclosure.
3. Ask for Permission: Instead of asking "What happened?" directly, try: "I'm so sorry, I didn't know. Would it be alright if I asked more about that, or are you okay talking about it?"
4. Be Brave Enough to Stay: Entering the "muddy waters" of someone’s grief can be a profound act of love and validation.

Big thank you to My Epic and Facedown Records for the use of their song "Hail" in our podcast!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2RZThURTU&ab_channel=FacedownRecords

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Transcript

Nole (00:24.794)
Welcome back to the Fire You Carry podcast. This is Noel. I'm doing a little bit of a solo episode today, so you just get me. I apologize for that. This, I think, will be a shorter episode. I am going to talk about something that's pretty deeply personal to me, and it revolves around the death of Heather and I's two sons, Asher and Paxton. I'm not going to go into detail about those losses. I've done that in other podcasts.

But we are going to talk about a question that often comes up regarding that and the dilemma that it puts me in. And I promise, I know most of you listening to this have not lost children, but I promise if you stick with me, I will make this applicable to you. I do have a lesson here, something that I've had to learn through this that I know will be helpful to you regardless of your personal situation. And I'll make it all make sense.

and it's not going to take me very long, but we're going to dig into this. I started reading a book that was given to me by my wife. Book is called Hope is the First Dose. The guy's last name who wrote it is Warren. I don't have it here with me, so I don't have his full name, but he's another one of these self-brain surgeon, neurosurgeon types. And he's talking about dealing with trauma and how to heal from that without SSRIs or...

psychedelics, know, whatever else you might use to try to treat essentially PTSD or just trauma in the brain brought on by life. But his story right off the bat is that he lost a son. He had a son that passed away. And I'm not going to go into detail about that aspect of it because it's, while it's a very difficult chapter to read, it's very compelling and I think you should read it. So I'm not going to give any of that away. But

He began after that chapter to talk about a dilemma that he has when people are getting to know him and doing the ubiquitous small talk that we all do. And I immediately identified very strongly with what he was saying. It was like listening to him or reading him describe his experience with this was like reading my own thoughts just written down by somebody else. And so it

Nole (02:50.251)
This is something that I've actually had on my list to talk about on the podcast for quite a while and I just haven't done it. And I just figured, you know what, this is current in my brain and connects to a couple of other things that have happened recently just in life. And so I thought, well, we need an episode this week. So I'm going to talk about it. When you meet someone, there's usually some level of small talk that happens. And so for me, this most commonly happens in the firehouse when I'm working with a guy.

who I haven't worked with before. And it usually goes something like this. How long have you been on the job? What stations have you worked at? And are you married? Followed closely by, you have kids? All of those previous questions, the first three questions are whatever, they're no big deal. Normal small talk, easy to answer. You know, I've been on this long. I've worked at these places. Yes, I'm married. And then we get to the kid question.

Nole (03:53.038)
It's a completely innocuous, harmless question and it's a very normal question to ask. We've all done it, I think. I do it. But when you've lost kids, that question takes on a strange weight. And so when I get asked that question, my brain goes through a process and it has to happen rapidly because I don't want to be that weirdo where someone asks you,

Do you have kids? And I just...

Nole (04:28.334)
stare at them blinking for a little bit. That's awkward, right? If you're on YouTube, you just experienced that. It's weird. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be weird. So I need an answer right now. The most common thing that I will do in these scenarios is I will say, we have three kids.

Which is true. We have three kids living at home with us now. We have Indy who's 10, Avery who's 21, and North who's 19. Yes, I just gave those in a weird out of order, but sometimes it happens that way.

That's true. And now we can move on. I can flip it on them. I can ask them the same question. We can talk about something else. Crisis averted. I don't have to talk about the fact that I have two sons that are dead.

problem with that is that I feel like I'm not telling the truth. I feel like I'm dishonoring my son's memory, Paxton and Asher, who are my kids. They are Heather and I's kids. They're our boys.

We've had five kids.

Nole (05:35.916)
but now I'm only talking about three of them. I don't want to do that. I want to recognize that I have five. But if I do that, now I have taken this conversation that is lighthearted, just...

Small talk with this person that I don't really know. And now I've just dropped a grenade right in the middle of that conversation. Here's this heavy thing that you didn't think you were going to be talking about right now.

I don't necessarily want to do that. And I'll talk about some different scenarios and how I have adjusted over time my answer based on the scenario that I'm in. it also means that then I'm going to go down that road a little bit potentially, right? Because most likely the person asking you the question, there's a good chance that they're going to ask you what happened. So then you have to tell a little bit of the story.

and you're putting that burden on this person, which is not something that I usually want to do. I don't run around feeling like I want to tell people about this, although there are contexts where I do feel like I need to, which I'll get into. So when I say three, I feel like I'm being dishonest. I feel like I'm ignoring Asher and Paxton or pretending they don't exist so that I can have an easy answer.

I don't want the easy way out. want to be honest, which means then I have to say the hard thing, which means I put this burden on this other person. So you see the dilemma.

Nole (07:11.64)
That's the dilemma.

Nole (07:15.64)
Previously, I've kind of handled it this way. the way that I've handled it is, if it's an acquaintance, if it's somebody I'm just meeting, so say it's a guy at work, I'm meeting him for the first time, he works in another battalion, we're not friends outside of work, we're just gonna work for this one shift, I'm probably never gonna see this dude again, because we have a giant department.

Or if it's someone else, a stranger out on the street that you know you're never going to encounter again, but for some reason you're talking and you're having this little interaction. Traditionally in the past, I have just said, I've got three kids and I talk about those three and get some information out of them. And then we go along our merry way, right? That kind of works for the social aspect of the question, but it still leaves me feeling like...

I let down.

or somehow betrayed Asher and Paxton, my other two boys who are no longer with us. But that's how I've traditionally handled kind of the acquaintance, I'm not really ever going to see you again, questioner. I don't give them that burden and I don't go any further than that.

The second category of people would be the acquaintance, the people you're getting to know or person, but you know they're going to be a part of your life moving forward. So this for me would be the example would be we recently within the last year or so had a family over who was joining the mountain fives and drums, which were a part of their kids are now going to be a part of it. They're coming over. We're becoming friends. have a lot in common. We're, sitting around the fireplace in front of our house. We're this great conversation. And there's literally a moment where we're talking about something.

Nole (08:55.93)
And there's a little bit of a, not a direct like question, cause they know how many kids we have, cause we've hung out together. So they haven't asked us that question, but there's a moment where I take it upon myself to literally stop the flow of the conversation. go, Hey, I need you guys to know something about our family. And I'm telling you, I'm going to tell you this because I know that we're going to be friends and we're going to be around each other. And this is going to come up in the future.

And I don't want that to be the first time that you hear about it, whether that's a month from now or a year from now when it has to come up for whatever reason, because that's just the way life is, right? This kind of thing comes up. And so then I explained it to them. I told them a brief version of the story. I talked about it and then we talked about it. They asked some questions and then we moved on. It was good. And those folks are still our friends to this day. They know that we don't need to talk about it all the time, but if there's an anniversary,

And they are there to be a part of Avery's birthday where we also remember Asher on that day. It's not weird and I don't have to explain it in that moment because they know. So that would be a context where I'm going to tell you because I think it's important for you to know. It's heavy and

Even in its heaviness, I recognize that as new friends and in a growing relationship, like that's actually something that you want to know because you need to know it about us because it's so foundational to who we are and our life experience. And then kind of the third tier, which is unique to maybe it's unique. I don't know, but it's unique to me. I feel like as a fireman, because I work on a team, I have a crew, a shift. So there have been multiple times in my career where I come onto a new shift. So right now the station that I'm at.

I came here, I met all the guys in the station for the first time. didn't know any of them. I ended up on a shift and at some point there was a conversation being had and they were talking about a tough call where there had been a child who had been in full arrest and the child had passed. And so they were talking about this and talking about how tough it was. I just, in that moment, take that opportunity to go, Hey, I need you guys to know that this is part of my story. This is what happened. And

Nole (11:17.368)
I just need you guys to know that to be situational aware in case we run into that together as a crew so that you know where I'm coming from. Because I might handle the aftermath of that differently than you guys do based on my personal experience. that makes sense for obvious reasons, right? Because we're a firehouse and we're a crew, I am friends with these men. But also from a professional standpoint, like they need to know. If we go on an infant drowning and I have to do CPR on that baby, it's going to affect me. That's going to affect anyone.

I don't care who you are, but it's going to affect me differently, most likely, than it would affect most. And my captain needs to know that. The guys that I work with need to know this. So those are kind of the three scenarios.

Nole (12:00.842)
Last thing before I get into some application. I've felt convicted lately, and I've talked about it a little bit here, but I felt convicted lately about being more open and more honest.

and just more authentic than I traditionally am. I find myself often not speaking into situations because I don't want the conflict or I don't want it to be awkward or I don't want to make it awkward for the other person, whatever. And I sort of put the first answer, the three kids in that same camp, because most of the time, if not all the time, when I make that decision, I'm not making that decision because I don't...

want to talk about it because it's going to make me sad. That's not really the way that it works.

Nole (12:48.15)
It's really more that I don't want to put that burden on the other person to have to figure out how they're going to respond, what they're going to do. And so I just avoid it. But that's really, begin, I've just been feeling a lot lately that that's dis, it's dishonest. It's not the true story of my life. It, it isn't something that needs to be hidden. It is a deep part of who I am and who Heather and I are as a couple and our family is. And it's not.

It's not unimportant. And so I do feel like as I've been thinking through this and processing through this, that I really want to more often default to the honest answer and just let the chips fall where they may. Because there is a reality about tragedy and grief and loss that people won't often bring it up because they don't want to make you sad if you're not thinking about it. But the reality is that it's always in the background. And I've never found myself upset because someone asked me a question about

something terrible that had happened in my life because I was, dude, I wasn't thinking about that. And now you've made me think about it. Now I'm upset at you. That's not really a thing. So then to bring it to the other person and essentially throw the ball in their court, I don't really feel like there's anything wrong with that. Now, do you need to do that with the Starbucks employee who's super talkative and is like, you look at your kids, how many kids do you like? No, you don't. It's probably fine just to

keep it simple. But so many other scenarios I think would fall into the category of just like just be honest, just be just be authentic. And some of the things because I've really been thinking about this not in the context of this but in the context of my personal beliefs, my morality, my political views, my thoughts on whatever. And I just stay quiet. And I feel like I need to do less of that. I feel like it's important that as a man I do

I do less of that.

Nole (14:51.458)
The lesson here is really just to be aware and to know that sometimes you're going to ask a question inadvertently that has a difficult answer to it for the other person. And to be prepared in that moment to deal with it in an appropriate way, in a respectful way.

And because these things take us by surprise, and I'm going to give some other examples that you might come across or that might happen to you, right, where you're to have to come up with an answer and figure out how you're going to answer it. You may already be thinking of one right now because it happens to you. But my advice to you, if you're in this scenario and you ask a question and the answer that comes back is difficult and unexpected, like how many kids do you have? Well, we have five, but two have passed away.

My advice to you is to take a tactical pause.

Nole (15:53.664)
And to know that there's nothing that you can say in that moment that is the quote unquote right thing to say. There are things in life, there are experiences in life where there isn't a verbal set of words that you can string together that is the perfect thing to say. When there has been a horrible loss or a tragedy, there are just not words. Now you can say things like, I'm so sorry, that's appropriate. You can say things like,

I didn't know that's so terrible. Like there are things that you can say, but those aren't the perfect things, right? That doesn't.

Nole (16:30.752)
I'm just going to say it. I'm talking about this. When you say to me, I'm so sorry after I've told you that I've lost two kids. I already know that you're a human being. You're not a crazy person. You might even want to be my friend. I know that you're sorry and I appreciate that I do, but it doesn't really do anything for me. It doesn't make me feel better in the moment, which is what you would want. Right? When you're talking to somebody and their mom just died, you want to make them feel better. The reality is you can't.

do that with your words.

Nole (17:05.056)
If you are a believer and you say, it's all for the best. They're with the Lord now. Those things are true, but they're not helpful. They don't help the other person. The other person doesn't want to hear that right now. So it's better to, in my opinion, to be silent. can say, I'm sorry. Don't tell them that everything happens for a reason. Don't tell them that they're in a better place. They know that stuff and it isn't helpful. I think a good strategy is to take a tactical pause.

wait a couple beats because you just got a heavy piece of information, something that you are recognizing is heavy for the other person. And then if you want to know more, if you want to continue that part of the conversation, which is totally fine and appropriate. Like for me, I know that when I tell people that we've lost two sons, there's an immediate.

Visceral reaction that happens and part of that reaction is curiosity because that's not a super common thing It's not completely rare, but it's also not super common And so people want to know what happened That's totally normal and fine and it doesn't offend me that you want to know what happened I would want to know what happened in fact when I run into people who I found out have lost kids I really do want to know what happened because We're just human beings. We we want to know what's your what's your story? What's behind that?

But don't just immediately launch in with what happened. Take a tactical pause, maybe say, I'm so sorry, I didn't know. And then instead of saying what happened, maybe phrase it like.

Are you okay with talking about it? Would it be all right if I asked what happened? Something along those lines. Ask for permission. Because that gives the guy, or the gal, I guess, the opportunity, if they're not in a space where they either have the time or the desire or even the ability to talk about it, it gives them an easier out than if you were to just directly answer the question. You're giving them permission to say, now don't really want to talk about it right now, maybe some other time.

Nole (19:06.264)
Whereas if you directly ask the question, what happened? The response is almost going to come out if they don't want to talk about it. I'm not going to tell you. And most people will then tell you even if they didn't want to because they don't want to be put in that awkward situation where they're just saying, I'm not going to answer that question. Most people are not bold enough in moments like that to answer that way. So give them an out. Give them a permission structure. And most people will open up and they'll talk about it.

Nole (19:38.252)
because it's part of our story.

generally we don't mind talking about it because it's not like we're just being reminded of it and we're having to drag it back through it. It lives right here. It's always there. while it is a big deal to talk about it, it's also not a big deal to talk about it, as strange as that sounds.

Some of the other ways that this could come up if, and I've had this one, you ask someone, oh, well, what do you do for a living? And the guy's unemployed. He's recently lost his job. That can be really hard. And it puts you in a moment of, oh, shoot, you know, I just brought something up that's now difficult to talk about. We were just trying to do small talk and get to know each other, but the same thing applies. Oh man, I'm sorry. I didn't know.

Is it okay if I ask what you did before? That type of thing can work with that. Are you close with your family? Really, which can obviously be difficult, right? If someone is estranged from their family, that might bring up a whole different type of conversation. A similar one would be, you married? Right? For a lot of people who are divorced, that is the question. Before they even get to the kid question, they get the, you married question? And then now they have to figure out how to answer it, which I've been in that role.

or on the other side of that a lot of times, because that's one of the common things you ask when you're working with guys in a firehouse is once you get past the work stuff, are you married? Well, I'm divorced. I will always respond with the same thing. I'm sorry. And then a lot of times you get guys that are like, whatever that broad was terrible. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. Or it goes another direction, but that's another time when you might have to take a tactical pause and think, okay,

Nole (21:24.834)
How much farther do I want to push this? What's the context of who I'm talking to? Is it important to find out what happened or how they're doing with that type of thing? Another potential one you might run into is you run into somebody you haven't seen for a while that's a friend. They've lost a ton of weight. They're looking good, you know, because they used to be fat. And you ask them, man, you've lost a ton of weight. What are you doing? And they've got cancer. Right. Things like that happen.

And it's okay, right? It's not, I really don't want this to come across as me saying, if you've ever asked me how many kids I have, you're doing the wrong thing because now you've made me go into this dilemma and try to figure out how to answer this. And you've brought up these things that that's not what I'm saying at all. These things are normal and they're okay questions to ask. But I do think it's important for us to always remember that the people that we're talking to, they

they have a different story and there are parts of that story that might be difficult for them that we're unaware of or that maybe even wouldn't be difficult for us. And you'll know immediately because their body language will change, their tone of voice will change. Like you've been in this scenario, you can picture it, you know it. You might even be thinking about a moment right now that was awkward because you asked a question that spurred a difficult response and you didn't know what to do with it. And that's my encouragement to you because some of these are pretty innocuous, right? Maybe not innocuous. That's probably not the right word.

Cause if you're a man and you've lost your job, that doesn't feel innocuous. But I would confidently say that that's less of a big deal than losing a child. But the reality is that in that moment, that's the heavy thing that that person is carrying. And now you've just brought it up. So that's what I would encourage you to do. Take a tactical pause, ask permission to talk about it.

And I would even actually encourage you if the scenario is appropriate and it's not the barista at Starbucks, but it's somebody who you may interact with again or who genuinely you can tell cares somebody who just ran into a church or whatever. I would actually encourage you to go down that road to be brave enough to ask the follow up questions. And if they don't want to answer them, that's fine. Give them grace. Talk about something else, withdraw from the conversation, whatever, but they are going to talk about it.

Nole (23:34.034)
And the fact that you care enough to go into the muddy waters of that difficulty in their life actually probably is going to speak love and caring to them in a way that is impactful and meaningful because so often with a hand grenade of information like two of my sons have died.

That's the end of the conversation. And that's okay too. I get it. You don't know what to say. You don't want to deal with it. It's too much. I understand. I'm not offended if you don't dig, but I'm also not offended when you do. And I'm, I'm actually.

I'm actually in a way a little bit happy when you do because it takes my dilemma at the beginning of the conversation where it's, know, do I remember and honor my sons or do I pretend like they're not here for the ease of the conversation? I've already started down that road and you're giving me an opportunity to honor them and their memories by telling you a little bit of their short story. And that does mean something to me. If you've met me and you didn't do that, I'm not calling you out.

I don't remember you. Well, I remember you because we're probably friends, but I don't remember that moment in the conversation and think, well, he didn't ask me what happened. No, it doesn't work like that. But I'm just saying I'm giving you permission. I'm giving you permission to ask the follow up question because it's not a bad thing to talk about it. These are things that have happened. And they're a part of the story of whoever you're talking to, or if you're sharing the story, they're a part of your story. And it's not only okay to talk about them, but it's actually really good and really healing.

So that's my advice to you. You asked that question that was no big deal, small talk, innocuous, and it suddenly becomes heavy. Take a tactical pause. Look at the person. Read the room.

Nole (25:33.452)
and then politely ask the follow up question. That's so heavy. Would you mind if I asked what happened?

See where the conversation goes, you might end up becoming best friends.

Nole (25:51.5)
This has been the Fire You Carry Podcast.

Nole (26:03.794)
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