14. Maria Meally - Imposter Syndrome

‘Is this a feeling or is this a fact? ’Maria Meally, Founder and CEO at Theory Y Search in New York City, USA.  a great chat with Recruiter, Maria Meally! Maria shares insights into the world of headhunting and her personalized approach to bringing candidates and businesses together to the benefit of both. Jann and Maria talk about imposter syndrome and practical things we can do to overcome feelings of inadequacy. They discuss that terrible roommate, i.e. the voice inside our head that tells us that maybe we aren’t good enough. As Maria says: “Let’s not get in our own way, let’s be the winner in our own lives.”     

More on Theory Y Search can be found:  https://www.theoryysearch.com/ 

More on Ford Keast can be foundhere: https://www.fordkeast.com/services/human-resource-consulting/

& for all the podcast information visit our website: https://www.career-resilience.com/

Thank you for listening 

Transcript

00:06 | Hello and welcome to our series Career Resilience, where we talk with people about their career path and their career journey, and maybe we can all learn from each other. My name is Jan like and I'm a human resources professional in London, Ontario, Canada. I work with Ford LLP and I work with my clients to help them with the H.R. side of their business.

00:29 | We hope that you will enjoy these discussions with real people about real challenges and real working life situations. Welcome. My guest today is Maria Meely, welcome, Maria. Hi, John. How are you doing ? I'm so glad to see you. Yes. And here we have a bunch of stuff to talk about today. And I've got my questions all listed out because I'm really interested in what you do for a living and some of the changes that you've made in your life.

01:03 | So we're going to talk about Korea. We're going to talk a bit about immigration and where you've ended up here. And also, of course, we're going to talk about what we always talk about on this podcast, video series about career resilience and your thoughts around that. So so can we start out, Maria, with what you do ? Yes, absolutely. So I am essentially a headhunter, a recruiter, and I focus only within a very specialized area of public accounting, which is media firms.

01:37 | So I recruit people in taxation and audit for mid-sized accounting firms within Ontario, as well as New York City, most recently. OK, so I think what I'd like to do is backtrack because I definitely can hear an accent. So I don't think you're in New York City right now, right ? I am correct. I am in New York City at the moment. And that's where you're settling ? Yes.

02:05 | OK, so can we go back to how you got to work city ? Absolutely. And I'm sorry if my emails are coming in. I do apologize. You can probably hear some sounds, but I started off my career in Toronto and I was there for about six years. My husband, now husband and I moved to Toronto from Ireland in twenty thirteen and I always wanted to get into recruitment.

02:31 | I had previously completed a master's in Human Resources and Industrial Relations back in Ireland and I decided I wanted to move into that space permanently after my education in Toronto. So I had started my career working in our office of Mount Sinai Hospital. Then I moved into agency recruitment, which is like the large agencies, like the big agencies you would have heard of. And and I was there for several years.

03:00 | And throughout the time that I spend within agency recruitment, I built up great relationships within the candidate's base, within clients. And I felt like I wanted to push that further. I wanted to drill down into the candidate and find relationships. I felt that there was a lot of feedback coming to me from clients and candidates about how the recruitment experience could be a lot more personal, less transactional, a lot more consultative.

03:29 | The time that I had given a lot of clients and candidates in the past was something that they felt was really desperately missing from recruitment in Ontario. So I then felt it was time for me to perhaps make a move and go out on my own. OK, so let's stop there. I want to backtrack to the fact that you're living in New York City. What is it like to live in New York ? Because you've lived in a few places now. What's New York City like ?

03:58 | Because I know if you make it there, you can make it anywhere. If this is true is absolutely true, because my husband and I decided to move to New York for so many reasons. One is that it has an energy and it has a huge amount of opportunity. We had some family here, but the city itself is, I would say, pre covid. I'll give you an insight into what it was like because it's very different now. So pre covid, it was it is just such a massive network.

04:27 | You have to go out network, you have to go to events, you have to speak with people. You have to get your name out there and you really have to put in the time talking with people, sending messages, sending emails to try and meet for coffee. And that is really how you build up a network. And for me, starting a business in Toronto, it was it was it was difficult. But I had a foundation of people I knew. So coming to a new city, starting from scratch, particularly in New York, which is overwhelming, it can be daunting for some people.

04:58 | I felt it to be tough, but exciting. And it's that kind of energy that I feed off of. So post covid or like in the middle of Corbould. Now, New York is very different because the majority of people have left to go back to their family homes. The city is very quiet. But what I love about living in New York is that it is it's such a melting pot. It's incredibly diverse. There's a huge history here. And I think if you have the attitude, positive attitude that Americans really seem to gravitate towards, you can do anything.

05:30 | It's really a mindset that you have to have. And I felt that was something I liked being around. Is it busier than Toronto ? I would say so, yeah. I would say so, definitely. In a different way, John, I would say Toronto felt very homely to me, you know, I had built motiveless my husband and I had built a very happy life there, very comfortable. But I think, you know, we were at a stage where we wanted to push ourselves out of our comfort zone. New York, it's almost to the point of you have to always be going.

05:59 | It's like a shark. If you don't keep moving, you die. And that is really the analogy that I take with me when when we came to this city is that you have to continually work. But I suppose the energy that you get from doing that, that I really love. OK, so we have positioned you as a sole proprietor of a recruitment firm, and the name of your firm is theory. Why search and why did you name it theory ? Why search theory Y comes from an H or management theory.

06:29 | There's theory X and there's theory Y. And I stumbled upon this during my master's studies. So Theory X is when a manager treats their staff as being disposable and not being inherently motivated to do a good job having to be micromanaged. And in theory, Y sees a manager treats their staff as something that is much more holistic, that they, you know, take enjoyment out of doing a great job for their clients, wanting to be part of a team, wanting to give more back and not feeling like you have to micromanage your staff, whereas you hire a great person and you let them do their job.

07:04 | And so that's really where I felt, you know, the theory y could be applied to recruitment, where as you employ someone like myself to find you great people or you find a person through me that is just a solid, stellar person to have on your team and you can just let them do their job. Now, you said yourself that you're a headhunter. What do you think are some of the misconceptions that people have about that word and that role ?

07:38 | Well, for many years that I've been working recruitment, a lot of people are still unsure about what my role is. I think a lot of people are candidates particularly can be confused. Do they pay a fee to the recruiter for finding them a job ? And I would say no, never. Another misconception is that, you know, for me that I just post jobs online and wait for lots of applications to come in for positions that I'm working on. That's also not the case for me.

08:05 | A lot of my work is referral based, so candidates who I work with are referred to me through word of mouth. And a lot of my work is relationship building and basically acting as a counsellor both at the time for candidates figuring out what makes sense for them strategically in their career, what would make sense for them going forward, and also being a partner, an adviser to firms that I work with on the client side.

08:29 | So misconceptions really is that a recruiter is a transactional middleman, basically just taking a CV and trying to put in a square peg in a round hole. Whereas for me, I really look at the bigger picture. I look at a person's personality, their culture fit and where they could be of best benefits long term. Do you reach into organizations ? And do I reach. Do you reach into organizations and pluck people out ?

08:59 | Oh, well, when I think about any candidates I work with, like now and in the past, a lot of those people I have met probably within, you know, networking events or Canadian Tax Foundation events, generally, I don't tell anybody. I don't go to organizations and pull them out of firms. A lot of the time people I've met with have said to me, look, Maria, I'm looking for a position that will give me X, Y, Z. I want to get here in my career.

09:28 | And then really I just speak with them and say, this is what I'm working on. How do you feel about it ? What do you think you'll be able to gain out of this position and go from there ? It's never an aggressive poaching process, ever. Have you ever been in a situation where a little bit more aggressive poaching would be expected ? And yes, I would say with really tough to fill roles, some firms will come to me and say, look, we have a need for a unicorn, somebody who has this level of experience, these type of clients.

10:00 | And at that point, I would have to ramp up my search, you know, have different different types of ways of accessing candidates at that point. Yes. But I don't think it really is poaching. I would see it as, you know, approaching a candidate with an opportunity that might give them, you know, exactly what they're looking for. Jen, that makes sense. How do you deal with rejection ? I mean, you're such this nice person. And I would just feel terrible rejecting you about anything, Maria, but you must in your business get rejection.

10:32 | So how do you do ? I am a well, a thick skin. When I started off working in recruitment, it was so daunting and scary getting on the phone, talking to people because you would get a lot of rude people on the phone, you would get a lot of hang ups, you would get a lot of expletives. And I think you just have to not take it personally, never take anything of business personally. It's always a business transaction. When you're talking with a client, if they are having a bad day, don't assume that it's your fault.

11:05 | I have just built up a thick skin over the years. And I think if you if you approach people with positivity and you have a genuine conversation with people and you try and prod people to see what makes them tick or any of the time, you know, somebody who you get on the phone and be it a partner or your director or office manager, they will reciprocate. And that's truly where I find I can differentiate myself because a lot of other agencies out there, they have many people on the phones consistently calling up with the same script, trying to get in touch with somebody.

11:36 | And I think a lot of people are put off by that approach. For me, I like to just converse and try and connect. Know what have you found have been the big challenges about being the being every position in your firm because you are it, right ? Yes. Yeah. And I think the main challenge is never really having downtime. I don't really get a chance to have a vacation. You know, I can get away.

12:05 | Obviously, I can spend time with my family, but I'm always on the phone. You know, there's an example where my husband and I went to the Rocky Mountains. We went to Jasper to see the glacier, and I was on a payphone at the glacier speaking with a client and trying to confirm a start date with the candidate. So there's always there's always an expectation that I'll be on that I'll be accessible and I have to be because I don't have anyone to delegate to.

12:33 | So I think that would be the main challenge, having not having any boundary between personal and professional. The time that I spend and work is pretty consistent all the time. Yeah, I had a great interview with Terry Zavitz, which I hope that you will give a listen to if you haven't already. And one of the things that we talk about in that episode is a bunch of her suggestions for entrepreneurs. And one of her comments is, and there is no such thing as a 40 hour work week when you're an entrepreneur.

13:05 | No, you have to accept that work life balance is not going to be the same for you as it might be for somebody within an organization. Absolutely. And I sometimes say to to my friends and families that I went from a nine to five to a twenty four seven through my own choice, through choice. I wanted to do this. So, Maria, how do you stay energetic ? How are you able to cope with that kind of schedule ?

13:35 | I would say, you know, with anything, I think having people strong, supportive people around you is so huge. It's very important to surround yourself with the right types of support network. So my husband is excellent. I do called him my director of strategy operations because I. And bounce off of him, anything that I need, you know, discussing or needing to brainstorm through. So having somebody you can bounce off of and talk to about your concerns or how tired you are or even just asking someone, can you make me a cup of coffee ?

14:06 | So that would be number one. Number two is I have to schedule everything, John, so I have to in the morning time, you know, figure out, OK, I'll do my work hours from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. I will start my business development from this hour. I'll take my lunch break here. So a tight schedule really helps for me. And then I would say, Shuting trying to shut yourself off and partition your life from, say, 7:00 p.m. onwards. I try and say to my husband, look, I'm going to take some time off.

14:37 | We'll have our dinner, I'll put my phone away, shut down the laptop, at least try attempt to have a boundary. I know it's so difficult with covid where everything is blurred at the moment. Yes. At least attempting in in having these boundaries does help. And I've taken up knitting. So that's also quite relaxing. Admitting a pandemic when what time of day are you doing knitting ? I would say maybe a nine to nine.

15:08 | Thirty nine to ninety nine. Ninety nine thirty before bedtime. As you can tell, there's a schedule for that as well as scheduling in your hobby. But that's really interesting, though, when you look at your career, what you've built, what's the thing as you look back and have never brought yourself to to being a business owner ? What's the thing you're the most proud of about, you know ?

15:35 | I would say taking a leap from being an employee to being my own boss, to being self-employed, I'm extremely proud of of making that. Taking the first step, making that leap and then continuing that journey for the last three years, they've just entered my third financial year being self-employed, running my own business. So I'm extremely proud of taking a very scary step in my life and leaving everything I knew behind and then making a move into into being self-employed, into entrepreneurship.

16:11 | And during that period of time, you said you're on your third year. How long before business sort of started to build for you ? I would say. Immediately, really, I would I would say that a lot of the relationships I had built up in Ontario stood to me. A lot of people remembered the time and the effort and the care that I put into working relationships, professional relationships, past success that I had really stuck to me.

16:42 | So anybody who I reached out to, I had a lot of goodwill. A lot of people were very eager and happy to continue to work with me. So there was never a lull. Know, I gave myself some time from leaving my full time job to getting things sorted for me and starting my business. But it was never a period of time, thankfully, and I feel extremely grateful for this, that I had to try and build things back up again. I really felt that it kind of took off from the get go.

17:09 | And I will put that down to just consistency over five years before moving out on my own, just really building up those relationships, following up with people, keeping in contact, sending a message to somebody on their birthday, sending a message to somebody on their work anniversary, sending out Christmas cards, gift cards during the holidays. All of those things are really remembered. Yes. Yeah. Good for you. I think that's an incredibly brave move.

17:36 | And so the question I wanted to ask you, though, is about stress and how you react to stress. You seem like such a calm person. I would think. I think with stress you have to I think you have to talk about it. You have to find your person that you can feel completely honest with. You have to allow yourself to feel the stress just as well, you know, rather than saying, no, I'm OK, let's keep trucking on.

18:03 | I think allow yourself the time to feel your emotions and and kind of ask yourself, where is this coming from ? You know, kind of step into it and allow it to kind of wash over you, make steps in your head to to alleviate any stressful symptoms you may have and have outlets have have the outlets that make you feel outside of work that may bring you joy, essentially. So I have I try to incorporate that as much as possible.

18:31 | When I started the business, I did find it very difficult going from an office environment where you are surrounded by people all the time, that you have friends and you have distractions. So on one hand, I found it quite lonely going from an office to working on my own completely on my own. But after a time that stress of the loneliness kind of dissipated and I realized that I could actually get into a space of more focus. And I felt a lot more deeply connected to the work I was doing.

18:59 | Rather than being distracted or going over to the kitchen and making a cup of coffee and chatting with people for forty five minutes, I felt like I was absolutely more in my zone. So in terms of stress, I felt that, you know, you talk about it, you feel it, and then you try and incorporate things into your life that alleviate it, you know. But you also strike me as the kind of person who airs on the positive side.

19:28 | Truly, yes. I try to be my Irish upbringing. I think a lot of Irish people are just you know, their attitude is really it could be worse if could work. So I think I really resonates with me where we have that that type of mindset where, you know, a lot of people have have a lot more hardship. And I just kind of keep on moving. Oh, yeah. Well, I have to say that I'm one of those people that followed you into this business that you're in.

20:01 | And what I appreciate about working with you, Maria, is just you're just such a human. And and I guess that's what you're saying about you know, it's about people, not about transactions. And, you know, you and I have had some great conversations and some great discussions and so some interesting things about candidates and know what we've settled candidates together that I just love to watch them grow and develop.

20:30 | And and, you know, you must feel, as I certainly do is when I do my recruiting. And so I'm very proud of your people. Absolutely. It's so rewarding. And I think one of the reasons why I love what I do, because recruitment has a very high burnout rate. You see a lot of people get into it and leave after a year or two. What I love about this job is that it's so rewarding. You meet people at the start of their career, you work with them, you present them with a great opportunity. The firm is happy, they're happy.

20:59 | And then five, six years later, their tax partner or their senior manager. And they've just gone above and beyond your expectations. And when you present somebody with a job that can truly change their life, that's the rewarding part for me. I find it to be the best job in the world. If you are suited to it and you don't mind working a lot and you don't mind working all the time, then you know you it is the. Satisfying, rewarding job, because you are tangibly changing somebody's circumstances to your point about calling your business theory, why I really love that.

21:33 | Then let's transition into career resilience. And when do you feel you've had to be the most resilient in your career ? I would say when things go wrong, when you know a candidate you think is perfect for a job doesn't take the job or the job disappears or the client has the change of mind or just things don't work out, things just kind of disintegrate.

21:59 | It's very demoralizing sometimes because you can put up in a massive amount of work, a massive amount of man hours into trying to match everything correctly because it is like matchmaking. And so when things don't go right and you have to start from scratch and that can be quite tough and that can be quite trying. And especially when you are employed by yourself, you do not get paid if you do not work. So for me, when things don't go right, it is really the difference between a pay like getting paid for that month and not getting paid.

22:33 | So that can add to your stress. So that type of resilience, I feel, is something that I've had to work on. Also starting the starting a business when I've had no background in business or being ever being an entrepreneur. Nobody in my family really is that resilience is really something I have to work on. Oh yeah. Now you specifically wanted to talk about imposter syndrome, so I think that that's very interesting.

23:03 | Can you start with a definition, your definition of imposter syndrome, and give me some some of your thoughts on why you chose that as as a career resilience topic ? Yeah, so I, I found an even within myself and with candidates that I speak with as well on a daily basis, a lot of people feel that they are not worthy of success or they feel like they're not capable of making massive moves in their career or anything that they have come across that is positive or successful in their journey is through.

23:36 | Look for that. They're a fraud. And that is something I kind of had to battle when I started my business, not the fact that I was fraudulent in any sense, but just the fact that I was coming from an employee for so many years and I had never worked for myself. It was such a big move to go out on my own. There were these voices that you sometimes have in your head where it's, you know, who do you think you are or do you really think you're capable of making such a big move on your own ?

24:05 | Why would you do this when you don't have many more years of experience ? Don't you have to have a, you know, a bigger brand behind you, all of these things that you kind of come across ? And I feel that in the first few months of starting the business, those were the feelings I was battling. Whoa. Oh, that would be difficult. And so how did you battle your way through them ?

24:30 | So there was a few things I felt helped, and one was that I wrote everything down, so I went through notebooks of just internal monologue that I had with myself and then I distinguished. Is this a feeling or is it fact ? And and honestly, there was columns that I had where I was writing down feelings, and then I, I was trying to pass them into the fact column and they weren't passing. You know, there was nothing that I could say that I was feeling that was actually true.

24:59 | So that was the first step where I was writing everything down, making sure I was recording what was going on in my head. Because if you don't get it out of your brain and onto paper, you will stress yourself out, you will talk yourself out of everything, and you will go round and round in your head for months and not make any decision. So I decided I wanted to write everything down and I separated it from fact and fiction.

25:21 | And another thing I felt worked was looking at past successes, looking at feedback from candidates or clients that I had over the past few years, keeping a feedback journal or a folder of everybody's positive thing. Everybody's positive comments or any feedback that I had from people. That was really great. I kept that hand any recommendations that I had. And also I felt that you can really start like breaking down negative, negative emotions about yourself, trying to almost do Ventry on why you feeling this way ?

25:58 | Where is this coming from ? Is this something that is based on, you know, your own perception of yourself ? Has someone ever said this to you and why do you believe it to be true. So that was the kind of system that I worked through. Yeah. On a very practical level. I was also just looking at, you know, how can I shift my my work, my the processes of me working into into something where I could have a very sesh and accountable deliverable, something I wanted to start during the week at the start of the week.

26:32 | And then at the end of the week I said, OK, let's look at a retrospective of all the work that I've done and the successes that I've had during the week. So I broke things down into manageable chunks. And rather than getting overwhelmed and like talking myself out of things or feeling that something was too massive to deal with, I broke it down into weekly segments. And then I looked at the things that I have achieved over the week and then I went from there. So tackling small problems, breaking everything down, writing everything down, and then just working through through the feelings from there.

27:06 | I really like the idea that you did that columns. Where is this ? Is this a feeling or is or is this a fact ? I think that's really quite amazing. You know, I do believe we're here. We all go through this. And I remember years ago when I was going through a particularly difficult time at work. And so it was it was really difficult to the point that I thought, I'm not sure I can continue working.

27:34 | And and then I thought, what do people see when they look at me ? So this is sort of the direction I went. What do they see ? And what they probably saw was someone who was calm. Yeah. Professional, dressed for the job. Yes. Things. And I thought, well, that's what they see. Why don't I just start seeing that to that ?

28:02 | And and that sort of helped me sort of adapt to that imposter syndrome that you're talking about, become the person you want. Like my husband said to me, you know, and allow yourself to be the winner in your own life, become the person that others see you to be, believe that you actually clicked in my head. And I was like, yes, like as you said, John, you know, people see me to be a certain way.

28:30 | You've mentioned already on this on this meeting, you seem very calm and you're super positive. But, you know, it comes from years of having to work through the negative side that's kind of taking you out of things and just and just muting that voice. Yeah. And that voice is willing to be so loud. Yes. And it's a very aggressive roommate. And really, it's not the roommate you want. No.

28:57 | And that roommate is sometimes, you know, especially I find if I'm going to sleep at night, the roommate will come in and say, you know what, I you should really start worrying about whatever. It doesn't pick a topic. Can you imagine if that was a real person job ? You would know where to go. You'd be like, get out of here. Can you imagine if that was a real human person going down ? You know, I think you should start really worrying about A, B and C. I know. I don't want to hear it. I know.

29:24 | And that's that's my whole point to of being your own best friend, if you possibly can, but. I just I think that is such great advice and really helpful, Maria, for you to come out and to sort of talk about that, because lots of times we don't want people to know that this is how we're feeling. And it's nice to share those feelings because all of us have have the same path to be on.

29:50 | If you were talking to a candidate and you were giving that candidate a couple of pieces of advice because they were switching careers or whatever, what would those pieces of advice be to a candidate ? The first thing I always say to people is when I when I have a person who's going for interview and I'm preparing them and coaching them, I always ask them, you know, try and connect with the person you're meeting on a human level. See if you can connect with this person. You can see yourself working with this person for many years to come.

30:20 | Do you have that that type of energy between you ? Do you feel like you can have a conversation ? So one of the first things I say to a person is approach this as a conversation, somebody you're meeting in your community so that you can learn a great deal from. They can learn a great deal from you, that you're just meeting as two professionals, having a conversation about what you do. And I think that immediately takes this kind of personal ask, transactional feeling away from interviews.

30:48 | Somebody then can go in and feel comfortable saying, I am coming from this level of experience. I'm meeting somebody who has a great deal to teach me. I can hopefully teach them something about my journey and those things. Saying that to a person really just lifts the stress off of interviewing because it can be a really pressurized environment. So I also want to make somebody feel very comfortable and tell them, you know, go into this approach it in a completely different way. I don't think any recruiter that I've ever known in this space has has approached interviews the same at the same kind of holistic approach.

31:22 | And that's really what I like to do. The second thing would be, you know, to to really know what you're looking for. And have you thought about where you want to be in your career in the next 10 years ? Do you know what type of goals you want to reach for yourself professionally in the next five years ? And that's one of the things I have. You know, I go over when I have my first conversations with candidates is let's talk about who you are and where you want to go. Does this make sense for this firm ? Does this opportunity serve you ?

31:53 | Does it give you the type of experience you're looking for ? So I would always say to a candidate, know exactly who you are and what you're looking for. And let's talk about that. And once you actually talk about that with the candidate before an interview setting, it kind of crystallizes things in their mind. You know, they have a clearer sense of what they're looking for rather than just kind of floating into an interview, not really being prepared, not really being sure about what they want. An interviewer can pick up on that down. I'm sure you have, you know, in the past.

32:21 | Oh, I like that idea of facilitating that thought process with with the candidate, because I think it is always difficult, very difficult to be the person who's looking for a job or seeking to make a change because it's a vulnerable place to be. And I think it's one of the toughest things in life, actually, is switching jobs, considering a job, all those things, because you're putting yourself on the line.

32:48 | So having someone like you to chat it over with, it's really nice to have that conversation. And it's totally different from a conversation that you would have with your spouse or your best friend who would say, you know what, just go in there and just show them what you can do. That's that's what we always hear. Whereas if you really think about it, it's so much more than that. And I think that's what you facilitate with with candidates.

33:18 | Is there anything else that you want to share from your journey with us ? I would say, you know, if you're ever in the in the space in your life where you're thinking, should I make a big move, should I change jobs ? Should I start a business ? Should I, you know, move country, whatever it may be, I would say, you know, take the leap and say you can do is figure out how to afterwards.

33:44 | It's a Richard Branson quote where he said, you know, if anyone gives you an opportunity, say yes and learn how to do it after the fact. Just say yes and take that jump and make that leap. Because if you procrastinate and you give yourself a year and you say, I will do it when I have a certain amount of money in the bank or I'll do it when I have more years of experience, you know, it'll never get done. And we've seen from covid and what's happened with Korona in the last year or John, is that know life has other plans. You can't really wait around for these things.

34:15 | I think you should just, you know, make your make your move and, you know, give it the best you can and don't get in your own way. That's something I have been proselytizing to every single person that I come across. Women in particular, you know, I'm part of this group, Washio, and that was started in Toronto by Vicky Saunders, and it's about giving back and investing into female adventures. And I went to a great meeting in twenty eighteen before I started my business. And it was all of these women who had these great business ideas.

34:46 | And they were they were meeting at Toronto City Hall to talk about the future of female businesses. And I just thought it was so inspiring. And so I had that feeling and that kind of fire lit within me. And so I want to share that with everybody where if you feel like you are ready and you want to work for yourself and you think you can do things better, that will be a key thing. If you can offer something that is better, that is what is on the market at the moment, you know. Yeah, well, that's great.

35:16 | Thank you for chatting with me today, Maria. Such a pleasure. Always a pleasure to chat with you. To our viewers and listeners, thank you very much for joining Maria and me today. Really appreciate it. You can find us on the Web. You get your podcast and we're also on YouTube. So I hope you will look us up and please subscribe. And until we meet again, thank you very much.