Deacons: How They Serve and Strengthen the Church - The Dad Show Bible Study

In this Bible Study episode of The Dad Show, the group discusses Deacons: How They Serve and Strengthen the Churchby Matt Smethurst.

Together, we examine the biblical role of deacons, their origin in Acts 6, their relationship to elders, and why servant leadership is essential to a healthy church.

The conversation includes practical examples of ministry, personal experiences serving others, and a challenge for every believer to pursue Christ-like service.

Key Scripture:
• Acts 6:1–7
• Mark 10:45
• 1 Timothy 3

Whether you currently serve in church leadership or simply want to better understand God's design for the local church, this episode offers practical encouragement and biblical insight.

The Dad Show exists to help men grow in faith, leadership, family, and purpose through honest conversations centered on God's Word.

Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:00

All right. Super stoked about this morning. Um so it's a really, really good book. I think the Yeah, we'll get get get into it. Um would you pray for us?

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Take just a moment and if there's anything you're dealing with or anyone that's on your heart to say a prayer for them. Say a prayer for that situation. If there's any sin that you need to confess before the Lord, just do it now. Heavenly Father, we just want to uh come before your throne this morning as forgiven men through the cross. We just ask that as we discuss what it means to be a servant, discuss what it means to benefit the church, discuss what it means to advance the kingdom, that you direct this conversation. We want to lift up each and every one of these men to you. We pray for those who are struggling, those who are dealing with issues with their families, with their own personal issues, those dealing with struggles of jobs, struggles in family, struggles in uh health.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Dear Lord, we just pray that uh your way and your will be done in each one of those situations. Give us your grace afresh and anew this morning. We love you and praise you. For it's in Christ's name. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:37

Amen.

SPEAKER_08 1:40

All right. Um, it's such a uh such a good book for me. Um I love the you you know you really be here's what I love. I love more than anything to see the people in the church built up, shepherded, discipled, cared for. And I think that is something we should equally all share and and have a passion for. Um I really think that God is looking for men who care more, like David, who care more about the sheep than they do about the parade that's happening on the side. And I this book and the next book determines the strength of the local church. Um I've had the privilege of being in 30 years, six different churches, four on staff full-time. Um, and I can tell you that the these two books will frame the maturity and uh strength of the church. Uh so as I was going through this, so been through this book three times. Uh I loved it that much. Um I was talking with a local pastor about this book, and he's he's from Tennessee. Um probably more up like in the mountain type, you know, um churches, grown up all his life, um, done the denominational kind of thing, and talking with him, and he goes, Man, I gotta tell you a story. He's like, This, what you're talking about, is so uh dear to me. He said, I was I was at and part of a church where the pastor said, Can I have all the deacons come forward, please? And oh, okay, wow, this is gonna be a good Sunday. Have all the deacons come forward. He sat them all down in front of the congregation and he said, Now, he started with this one, there was like seven or eight of them. He started with this one. He goes, Can you tell the congregation, please? How many people you visited, cared for, called, delivered groceries to, or prayed for this week? And he's like, Can nobody this week? No, no, I haven't. Could you tell the congregation how many people you're one of the deacons that you have cared for, brought groceries to, prayed for, contacted, discipled, visited. We've got so many sick in the church, so many hurting, so many things that are going on. In the last month, could you let them know? Haven't done that. How about in the last six months? So on and so forth. He went down the row, and the last guy was like, Well, I visited five this week, I've called, I've done this, and he goes, Ladies and gentlemen, we have a deacon here in the church. All that to say is sometimes, you know, we we have to guard ourselves from traditionalism at times and and getting caught up into holding positions where maybe really we either maybe need to let go of the baton and move and let somebody else take it, or we actually do what the calling requires us to do. And I loved this the some of these quotes in here and some of the you know the history of these of the deacons, uh, where it came from in Act Six, so good. And I would ask anybody that's maybe even listening to this later, in your church, if you evaluate, and I'm not speaking of any church right now, I'm just saying, if you evaluate your church, do you have deacons that are predominantly old grumpy guys that walk by you in the hallway and don't say anything? Or when you look at your local church, do you see the people that hold positions of deacons as the gold standard of deacon service? And that's really where we want to go is like, hey, deacons are the gold standards of servants in the church. I love that because that just that propels me. Whether you hold a position of deacon or not, all of us in some form are servants in the church. But holding a title in an office is something else. So in a local church, the deacons that are there should be the gold standards of service. Amen? Everybody agree with that? Okay, so some of those, you know, those things that wasn't uh in Acts 6, and kind of just to set the framework for this, you you see the idea of deacons being born out of Acts chapter six. This is where it comes from. But you also got to, and as we get into this discussion a little bit wider and deeper, is that you look throughout scripture, you know, you have elders that are mentioned 172 times. You have deacons that are mentioned three times. So this kind of tells you that there are A, two different offices with two different functions. B, one has a I don't want to say a weightier, but a more predominant position in the leadership. Um, and those offices together create a strength in the church that will help disciple every soul in there if it's if it's done right. And that's where my passion is. Um, and I and I'm sure that's where your passion is too. I want to see people cared for. I want to see them shepherded, I want to see them visited. And I'm super thankful that we in our local church, we do have uh this this guy right here is a true model of a deacon that can be the gold standard service. So for anyone that's listening or any church that you're at, uh, or maybe you have a passion and a desire and a calling to become a deacon, let's remember that's the gold standard of service as the shock absorbers, which we talked about. Now I'm gonna let you freelance on that a little bit as a senior pastor. Yeah. So I want you to um I want you to emphasize that a little bit. But um let's just jump into it. Um, who's got chapter one?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Well, before we begin, okay. So one of the things because this role is important and everyone should uh strive to serve the church, we have an example in Mark chapter 10. Jesus himself uh says, you know, I didn't come down to be served, but to serve. The word there is actually deacon. Yep. So say I didn't come down to be deaconed, I came down to deacon. And so we see the model that Christ holds up even in his life. In in Mark chapter uh 10, verse 45 is that verse reference, if you want to look it up, but he he came down not to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many. And so, you know, the ultimate model of a deacon is actually Christ himself. Of he stepped out of his throne room into our mess to show us how to do this and and to be our example. So as we're striving to uh solidify and make our churches healthier, you know, he's always the one that we look to. Not that we could ever reach his level of perfection, right? But he's the model that if if you want to know what you should do in any situation, look to Christ.

SPEAKER_08 9:41

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

And and so even in the context of serving, look to Christ.

SPEAKER_08 9:46

Yeah. So that's a great framework to start with, is that generally we're all the optimists, we're all in the the arcano service, right? We're all servants. Uh, on the other sense, there's a particular office in the church that is held that is called deacon, which comes from the word serve or wait tables, which is born out of Acts chapter six. Hopefully everybody's read that understands what happened there. And we're going to get more into the details of the beauty of these shock absorbers in the church and how they handled conflict and kept um peace between the congregation and the elders so that the elders could focus on their job and the deacons would be able to mitigate some of the problems that were happening before taking it and escalating it to the higher levels. So um, chapter one. Chapter one. Go ahead, you and Frank, brother.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Well, we scored the good chapter. Uh we got the backstory. Um, backstory in blunders, how Deep's Deacons functioned. Um I think it's interesting that you know they go through history, which for me that is the foundation. I love that. I love the where did it start, where'd it come from? And you've already mentioned at Acts 6, so I was gonna bring that up as well. Um, kind of where where it's mentioned. Um and uh I also wondered, I guess this is more of a question, but is why deacons are not mentioned so much in the Bible? Because you just mentioned that already, and that was that was actually my question. Um, because it does point out in this, you know, and he kind of makes a joke, like probably inspires you to read some more.

SPEAKER_08 11:39

Yeah. And you know, on that, um uh a church is impoverished without deacons, right? Yeah, and and that's a point that he makes in in chapter one, and with them they're incalculably rich with deacons. Um so yes, uh Acts chapter six is where they're born out of, and really it was the physical need. So we can kind of set the premise there of deacons have a particular role. And and I want to later, you know, there are some hard questions in here that we may all have to reflect on as far as um the governing role of deacons. Where does that stop start? Where does it get blurred? Um where are they um helpers for the elders, and how does it look if these two are functioning together in a local church? Um but yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Could I take a shot at answering that question? Go ahead. So this is my thoughts. The reason deacon, the office of deacon, isn't mentioned as much is because if the church is actually functioning properly and everyone is following Christ, what should they be doing? Serving. Serving, yeah. And so deacons feel a need when Christians aren't doing their job. Yeah. Right. And so, and and even with that said, there should be the striving, the admiration to go even further and to become a deacon in in the office if the Lord so chooses. But if the church is actually being the church, then everyone is doing this.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah. But I was gonna bring out the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

He points that out a little bit. All the qualifications actually for a deacon are given in other places for Christians in general.

SPEAKER_08 13:30

Yeah, and so that's exactly what I was gonna say to hold an office is a little bit different and fulfilled.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Correct. And so if you have a church full of people who have this mindset, then the office, while still needed, as maybe uh uh setting apart or or organizing or what have you wouldn't be as visible because everyone is doing it, right? So if a church member has a need, they know, oh, I can call my deacon, as the example that you gave uh poorly of only one deacon in that whole row of seven. But if the mindset of the church member is, oh, I see a need, let me take care of it, then they're fulfilling the role of servant without being in the office.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Yeah, 100%. And that that's why, I mean, I I brought that up because I disagreed with it. I maybe the word isn't in there as much, or it's not talking about structure of church. Well, the church come after Jesus, right? So the Bible is the life of Jesus, right? So it's not going to mention it that much, but he portrayed that. He he all over scripture is how to be a Christian, right? And that basically is speaking, right? Just like you're saying. Um, so I I disagreed with it. It may not be mentioned, but if you look through the stories, it's all there. It's it's right there. I mean, you you look at um when they're coming to the Last Supper, and there's a squabble with the disciples, and and he's washing feet, and who's better to serve or to be served, right? Who's who's the master of the table? Um, I mean, those examples are all over the Bible. So I kind of disagreed with it a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_08 15:22

Yeah, I just thought that was And I think the distinction is when when the actual body of Christ was born in the church, is post-resurrection for the most part, right? Yeah. The incorporation of Gentiles and Jews into this new thing called the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

But yes, good point. Um I I also like the some of the history stuff. I remember reading one of a guy who brought the treasures of the church. Glad you mentioned Valerian. Yeah. Yeah. Or actually Lawrence from Lawrence. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 15:50

And I thought that was an awesome story. So so let's just that was one that actually caught my heart too. Is yeah, so under they wanted a, you know, Valerian wanted to, the Emperor in Rome wanted to execute all of the clergy. Right. And he said, Bring me all the goods in the treasury. So a real deacon, right? Being a real deacon, he wanted to get the poor, the widowed, the you know, the maimed, the hand. And he said, Here's the treasury of the church. Yeah. Right. And he he meant the money, obviously. Yep. But but what a deacon's heart that is, is to see the people, not the position, but the people as the treasury of the church. Right? If you walk and so if deacons walk past people in the church and never get to know them, never talk to them, are they how are they getting to know the needs of the people? If there's not a Yeah, you may not, you know, jive with certain people, but deacons have a call to get to know the person, get to know the needs, get to know the requests that they have so you can do fulfill the office, right? If you're not doing that for some reason, then maybe A, maybe I pass the baton on and get out of the way for somebody who him who can do it, or reset your heart to serve in this capacity, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Yeah. And I think it's interesting that he knew he was going to be put to death for this. Yeah. And he did it anyway. And I think that was awesome. And then it talks about how he was put to death and that he was kind of comical during it. When they they put him to the to the stake, and he says, flip me over, I'm done on this side. I thought that was good. Man, he he went, he got to it. That's that's good. Yeah. Keep going. Um hit it. This is your chapter. Well, a couple, I mean, just some things that uh this chapter should be pretty short with us, but uh uh the witness is plain. A congregation without biblically functioning deacons is impoverished, but a congregation with them is uncalculably rich. That was a good um good point in there. And then uh we talked about Acts chapter 6, 1 through 7. Generally seem to establish or at least preview the office. Deacons in the early church were tasked with supporting the work of pastors by caring for the outward or physical concerns of church life. Um, and it you know, it goes through history um a little bit in this, and and a couple of uh examples on how to look for a deacon, I guess. You know, like what was it, toolbox terrence or two hox period or something like that, and so forth, you know. But ultimately, to sum it all up, is where are they at in their Christian life? And the very end. Doesn't matter your portfolio or if you can if you have tools or you can run a spreadsheet, where are you at in your walk? How does your family look? What is the outcome of your children, your wife? How do they present themselves? They're a mirror of you. Um I think that was uh a good point to start off with in the first chapter. Kind of here's what you're really looking for. Um yeah. Frank, what you got?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Um my mindset and it goes out, it's not in this book, but it's in a very important scripture, is Colossians 3 23. All that we do, we do is for the Lord, not for man. And I think if we have that mindset and whether you're officially titled as a deacon or not, I know when my pastor approached me about becoming a deacon, my mindset was I feel like I'm doing a deacon's role, but I don't need the title. I was not after a title. But after I was ordained and started carrying out those duties, I just seemed like God just led me to step it up and step it up and step it. I just got even more involved. And I can give you a good example yesterday. Um, got a dear family that's in the uh the fem oh, the mom is in the hospital. So um I was at Sam's yesterday. I took snacks and hand sanitizer to the waiting room just for the family. Yeah. That's I just went to visit the family and check on them. And they insisted that I go back, so I got to go back. And the husband was back there. And I was so glad that they made me go back there because we spent 30 minutes of him pouring his heart out to me, talking about his conviction. And it's just God led me there, and it was for a reason. And you got to follow your heart and do what do what God wants you.

SPEAKER_08 20:43

Extremely blessed by that insight into just serving and loving people, right? Because that is truly the role. And and I think offices, we don't want to negate the office either. Offices are very important for the church. Uh obviously, like you said, serving in the capacity that we're all deacons, extremely important. Uh, but holding an office and recognizing that too is a God-given thing that we should definitely exalt and honor. And I think I want you to, I know you got more, I want you to, you know, comment on more too. Being in a role of a deacon, um, please feel free to it's it's been so rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

It can be taxing at time, but it's been very rewarding. Um getting people to reach out to you as a deacon is tough. Um, you hear about someone being in the surgery on Facebook or something, and that's sad because you know, I'm your deacon, give me a call. I'm gonna request prayer, we're gonna make sure you get a meal. We're gonna do our best to to fulfill the duties of a deacon, but we gotta know what's going on. Yeah. Uh we love doing the the meals, uh, praying for people and pray praying for family and friends, and it's It's a joy to start.

SPEAKER_08 22:01

Yeah, and I do want to get more into kind of working out the shock absorber mentality of the roles of deacon and to buffer, you know, between the leadership of the church so the leaders can focus on, which why when I refer to the leaders, I mean either you the board of elders and the deacons and the congregation, right? The buffer in between. You know, obviously he mentions in here, which something is extremely important, is that the there was a move away from the model of deacons and elders in the church. Now there's been a uh a resurgence to restore what is biblical, right? I think um he mentions that, and he also mentions the moving away from the executive board mentality, the Moses model, which didn't doesn't work. Um everybody suffers with that Moses model, one person making the decisions for everything. Well the solo pastor and deacon model, moving away from that to a more historic vision, which the elders are the spiritual oversight of the church, and the deacons are the practical service and supporting of the elders' vision. Those are two huge distinctions that I think um need to be honored and merged together.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I can't remember if it's in in this book or somewhere else that I've read, but deacons lead through serving while elders serve through leaving.

SPEAKER_08 23:29

That's right. And so what a great compatibility. Um Frank, what Eric, what else you got from that chapter?

SPEAKER_03 23:38

I had a question. I don't know if it was in this chapter. But uh so I might be shifting gears on you here, but um it mentions there was a man that had a divorce. Yeah. And then I have that. The church did not want chapter five. That's chapter five? Yeah. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_08 23:57

Maybe I shouldn't shift gears. Those are great questions because what disqualifies a person or what could disqualify them for um from serving in an elder or a deacon capacity because the qualifications are the same, but the roles and functions are different.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

So I know that there's you know kind of biblical divorce, and then I mean that's basically it. There is no other way to divorce, but either way, is this the church not forgive the guy if he wants to step into that role? I mean, I I find it interesting because of my past, right? So not that I have a divorce, but you and I have been in places where we've we've done some bad things, and are we not forgiven for that? Does that disqualify me now from ever being a deacon? And I'm not asking for it. That's by all means I'm not. But but what I'm saying is why would divorce be a specific thing pointed out that you know I I've been a felon and done sins, undescribable sins, and does that s does that disqualify me as well? The same do I not follow the same bucket as a divorced manager?

SPEAKER_08 25:10

Well, I think here's the deal. If a man cannot, if a man has proven not to run his household in faithfulness, he should have no business running anything in the church. That's the that's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

I th I think the genesis for your question is actually a failure of the church right now. Absolutely, because they pick and choose. The sins we want to because oh, divorce is easy. There's a piece of paper there that says you're divorced versus us getting to know a person and saying, Oh, he's a compulsive liar. Right. He's greedy, he's greedy, right? So it's it's a fault of the church as a whole that we don't do our homework. Right. And and so the divorce one is again easier to to land on just because oh, we're not gonna pick this person because they're divorced, versus Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 26:15

So I think it's up and that's a good question. Uh I want to hit it for a second, and because there's some of us in this room that are divorced, I'm divorced. Um, like our particular denomination, SBA, right? They do not hold a position on um whether a person could serve as a pastor, elder, deacon if they're divorced. They leave it to the local church for the very reason A, it's vague in scripture. B, what happened? You first you can't just say, well, somebody's divorced. Well, does God really hold that person responsible if you are, let's say, predominantly without sin in a marriage? One spouse goes sideways, has an affair, leaves the family. Is that person really unable to serve anymore? To me, that's silliness, yeah, right? I think it's unbiblical. So those things have to be evaluated with wisdom by the elders of the church in a case-by-case scenario. What about a single guy? Is he disqualified because he's not married? Because the qualifications are for somebody who's married. I do not think so, right? Are you faithful in the capacity of your sphere of influence with family, without family, right? So that has to, that has to be evaluated. What about if a person has looked at porn before? Is he disqualified? Some people look at that as adultery, you know, like where does it end? And I think those things have to be measured with great wisdom and spiritual care by the elders of the church to determine is this person, and here's the thing, faithful at this time in their life, no matter what's happened before, we don't know what's going to happen in the future, but right now, can we deem this person faithful in the capacity of his sphere of influence? Right? And that and that's really what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

So um To me, it goes back to the whole basis and basics of the whole deal. You ask for forgiveness, God's forgot those sins. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 28:05

You know, and you change. And listen, if I would be the first to say, if if if I was a person who, let's say, while I was pastoring, I pastored full-time for 15 years at different churches, if I was a person who it was my error, my fault, I committed adultery, I messed up, and I had that on my record, I would by all means say, you know what, I'm I'm disqualified from that, or, and a lot of people differ on this. Church, I've seen men restored and back in position over a period of time, right? That's if a person is completely in error, has repented and come back. But all those are very uh you know dicey things to move through with care and love, because people can go off the rails and be restored. I'm 100 percent behind that. John Piper would say peep men can be restored back to ministry. John MacArthur would say they cannot, depending on what happens, right? Like you're you're in a uh we see this all the time, right? You're in a youth pastor position, you've had sexual immorality with youth kids. I would say you're definitely disqualified from serving for a long time, if forever, right? Again. Those all have to be weighed, the magnitude of the sin, what happened, and all the you know, all that stuff. But where's your heart? Yeah. Where's your proven faithfulness and track record? Can men see it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

And that that's the other, again, issue that I think the church as a whole has is we also get in the mentality that, oh, I've got this title, I'm gonna have this forever.

SPEAKER_08 29:40

And and that was something that, and I don't mean to there's just so much in here that is on my heart. There we have to, and this is the this is the point in Act 6. We have to love, and when I say we, let's pretend I was a deacon or somebody, we have to love the sheep more than we do the position of ministry. Because if we look at the church predominantly, and let's just say, I'm gonna use an extreme um example, let's just say all the deacons are old and they need more assistance than they can actually give to people. They're the ones that actually need the assistance and they're holding positions of leadership in the deacon role. If we love the church and love the people, let go of this is the whole idea about discipleship. We are always holding the baton loosely so that we can bring up the next group of men. We should have a strong mix of young men who are qualified and older men so that we're always having a generation of solid deacons in the church and elders in the church that we're raising up and shepherding. That's where the church's strength is going to be found. And and I know you want to say something. Um, he says in here on page 36 when deacons start to function either as leading shepherds or as a board of directors, the biblical description for deacons becomes blurred. I could not agree with that more. That is such a profound statement. Um Deacons are not the church's spiritual council of directors, nor the executive board to him, the CEO, pastor, and who he answers. They are the Calvary of Servants, deputized to execute the elder's vision by coordinating various ministries. Deacons are like a congregation special ops force carrying out unseen assignments with fortitude and joy. Oh man, that is some good stuff right there. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 31:47

If I may, I had a a question right there. Um for for our church that most of us go to specifically, the ministry we have ministries at the church, the children's ministry, men's ministry, everything like that. What are the ministries that our church is supporting outside of the church? And it might be that I just don't have access to know that, but I'm I'm curious what those are, or are we doing those? Is there places in the community that we're helping, or like what what other ministries are we supporting financially or praying for or anything like that? Well, we do house-to-house groups.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

I mean, that's one. And those groups um step out and do other things as well. Okay. Whether you know we just did a move, um, some of the gentlemen here. Okay. And uh that was through house-to-house, through those groups.

SPEAKER_07 32:43

I hope that question didn't come off as like me trying to call out the church. It was just from my answering it right.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

I don't know, I don't know exactly what you mean. I mean, is it financially from the church? No. Okay. The church doesn't finance it, it promotes it. Okay. And I don't want the church to finance it. We should be able to finance that ourselves. Okay. You know, I is what I think. Um if I if I'm answering the question right, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 33:06

I guess my question is uh, you know, is there a place that needs help that you know, do we need people to to go to these ministries? Do we need the deacons in our church to grab volunteers like what y'all did with that move to say, hey, somebody needs help in this area, let's pull some people together.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

So I don't go to your church, but I can tell you the answer to that is yes.

SPEAKER_09 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:28

Yeah. And I guess that would I'm just trying to figure out what are the specific places that need that.

SPEAKER_08 33:34

I would oh so let me let me go a little bit different direction on that. He's right, yes. And I think that's more of a diaconos across the board. Right. Like all of us servants finding out how we can support local ministries and stuff. The church can provide a role in that, like, hey, we're going to uh help the Ladd Foundation. Praise God, right? That the church is is uh committed to those particular ministries outside of the local church. On the other side of that, I would say you begin to do that when you can look at your church and say, we are shepherding well, the marriages are getting counseling, the we have local uh young leaders that are being built up, we have um, you know, programs, or I hate call them programs, but we have discipleship within the church. Like we are functioning on all cylinders as best as we can. Now let's look outside of that, because what often happens is we look outside too much, and the house of God itself in the local church is not raising up the next generation or is not discipling their people or caring for them as we should. Okay. So my my view on that would be let's take care of the local body so well that we can say, well, this is functioning. We have the the leadership in place uh to shepherd our own people. Everybody's being shepherded very well. And now let's look outside of that. I think that's the spiritual obligation that the local leaders have to the local church first. Okay. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, then the uttermost parts, right? Okay. And so I think there's a format in that.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Well, our last worship night, we did that as well. Well, because that uh ministry by the lake, miracle like Miracle Lake. Um, and and the church stepped up and what would we give them? Three grand. Three grand. Three thousand dollars just in passing the hat, I mean, wow for that ministry.

SPEAKER_07 35:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Um and it was it was actually really cool. It was very unexpected for me. I didn't expect to see 40 men stand up on at our stage. Um, that had been through it. I mean, you can see it in their face, and then they've turned to God, and then they're up there singing their heart out, man. It was it was an awesome thing to see. And for our church to step up and say, yes, let's do this. Bring it. Amen. You know. And I so I think that's definitely something outside. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 35:56

Yeah, and I think that's more about, you know, a one-off thing that they've we're talking about. I thought you were referencing more of a committed, you know, uh local ministry that we're supporting outside the church. But one those those things are those things are amazing, right? We want to support those things as much as we can. Um What do you got first?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Uh Hands of Mercy. There's there's a good example. Um and to take what he brought up a little bit farther, and as a deacon, when God leads me to do something, I act on it. That's not what I'm gonna argue about. Um two or three years ago, I found out about Hands of Mercy. Um, got contacts and everything, and about three weeks ago, before they came to our church, I woke up one day and God was saying, Okay, you're going to hand to uh Miracle Lake. I took off down there not knowing where I was going, what I was doing, or anything, and I called them, and of course I was welcomed with open hearts. I want to be more involved. I want to be the go-to person at our home church. If your cousin has a need, has addiction, and needs a place like this. So I went down there, I spent the day, I met all of the counselors, I met half of the guys that are in the program. Um, they I toured the facility. I'm getting very involved right now. I've got about a half a truckload of things that I'm accumulating myself that they need. They need clothes. They have a trailer of mercy. Uh talked to the guy the other day, they brought in five inmates straight from the, I think from Polk County jail. And these guys come in there with the clothes on their back while I'm getting socks and underwear and things like that. It's it's what we can do, not just as a deacon, but just to serve Argentina, just to serve. Yeah. Amen. Yeah, no. I I was gonna send you guys a text out that I'm promoting this. If you you know, if you're at Walmart and don't mind, pick up an extra pair of socks or some t-shirts or something, and let's let's help equip these guys. It was that was such a blessing. Yeah, it was love to see more of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

You're the second guy who's told me I don't have a very good poker face. Because you said, I know you want to say something.

SPEAKER_08 38:11

But I think we track together in these things.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Yeah, so the special ops uh comment that he makes in here, and and Smethurst is excellent at illustrations. If you've never heard him preach, I I actually recommend you look up River City Baptist Church and get a couple of sermons in. But uh the special ops um example that he uses, and then what you said is very important because in in the special forces, what happens to the older special forces guys? They go back and they become trainers of the next generation and pour in that's part of their service, right? So uh as if you're f in the office of deacon or elder, understand you're not there forever. Like as a pastor, I'm a pastor of a church, but I'm the interim pastor of that church, even though I'm called to be at that church, because that church is not mine, that's Christ's, and so part of the job, and I think um Robbie Galladay, a pastor in in Nashville is where I heard this quote from. I don't know whether you got it from him, you know, if he came up with it or not, but the gospel came to us because it's going to someone else. And so uh, you know, in the role of serving, whether deacon or elder, you gotta understand your interim anyway. So don't have an ego, yeah, right? Let that go. Serve, lead, do what you need to do, be the special forces, uh, and then pass that on to someone else, because um there's no example in scripture other than Christ where they have a continuing ministry.

SPEAKER_08 39:57

Yeah. And I think that's a great, you know, that's what I was trying to get to in the opening story was that in this particular example of my friend told me is you have guys that have held on to a position for so long just because more of it's maybe a cultural thing or a positional thing, and you don't want to let it go, but you're not really serving in that particular ministry. So you have to do something about that. And that's more of what you said, Walton. That's kind of the church's fault. Somewhere down the line, we have to evaluate why that's happened. Right. Um, let's get into the blueprint. If nobody has anything on chapter one anymore, we should probably move on to a lot more of this book. Yeah. Chapter two, let's look at the blueprint. Obviously, as you look at chapters two through four in Acts, hey, things are so weak, right? Things are things are golden. I mean, there's harmony, one mind, breaking bread, and all of a sudden there's some trouble brewing, right? All of a sudden. And this is where the deacons are born out of is that obviously the conflict was brewing. The Greek Jews felt that their widows were being neglected, right? So you had the Hebrew Jews, the Greek Jews, and you had this schism that is getting ready to take place. Uh, obviously, it was a big deal because they were felt that they were being neglected in the daily distribution. And the elders said, It's not right, or the apostle said at this point, it's not right that we should give up preaching the word and praying, holding the doctrine, discipling people, uh, so to wait on tables. That's where we get the word and the theme of the office of deacon. And so, hey, what's what do they do? Um, they have the congregation. This is so, this is so wise. And again, you can see culturally where churches have shifted and gone off. Uh, if we really love God's word, let's try to get back to it as best as we can in our decision-making process in the local body. And that is, they went to the body and they said, Hey, who do you see as actually doing the work and serving the people of this church? Forget the people that are in office for a minute, right? Or let's look and and have you pick the people you already see because now you're invested when you say that in that because you're saying I'd validate this person or this person. And I think the wisdom here is so amazing because they thought it was unconsciousable, unconsciousable, right? Unconsciousable to leave the preaching of the word and the prayer, that particular ministry of the apostles and elders, right? To go do these other things. To leave somebody neglected in the church meant that there was a void. And I kind of want to just let that hang for a minute. We can be so, and this is a good thing that you mentioned, so ministry driven. Ministry this, ministry that, we've got to go do this, we've got to do that. Stop. If we evaluate our local church, I'm not saying particular ours, I'm just saying in general, and there are people that are left neglected, that need care, they need extreme discipleship, they need marriage counseling, they need help, practical helps in their home, whatever it is, I should stop and I should make sure that the local body first, nobody is left neglected. Because if we have an office, let's say, and this is where the challenge is if you have an office of deacons and you have a bunch of people that are neglected, what what has happened? We have to evaluate that. This is where the elders come in. What's happened? We neither either need to reset and take care of the people and and maybe multiply more. Of the deacons that are qualified to take care of the people, or find out why that's not working as it should. They said there's no way that we could leave tables to serve, leave the ministry of the word to serve, and there's no way that we could leave these people unattended and neglected. So there was a dilemma that was created, right? And this is where it's deacons are born out of. Um, it would leave the church without defense against false doctrine, true preaching, prayer, and shepherding the flock, raising up leaders, which was the apostle's role. Man, that is gold right there. So there is a situation where pick men that can handle this. Not the guy that's just good at Home Depot, right? Not the guy that's got tools in his shed. He has to have the tools of biblical skill in his heart. He has to know the word some level. He has to be growing, he has to be wise. Not that he's gonna be the sole counselor, but he could be the shock absorber to say, hey, at the intermediate level, I'm gonna step in to see if I can handle this. I'm not even gonna bother them with it so they can stay on focus, you know, in the prayer on the word, discipleship, raising up leaders, and we're gonna handle this at the level. If we need to escalate it like anything else, we will do that. But that's where the shock absorbers for the church come in in this role. Um so that's kind of where it's born out of. What you got on there, Justin? You want to comment at all?

SPEAKER_07 45:34

This is Oh, I mean, you're doing great. Well, I know you know me. I'll just keep going. Um, I love it. Um, I like that you started off with everything was great, right? Acts two through four, everything is good. Just saying a few things on there about how everything was great. Those verse, some verses in chapter two and four say the church devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship to the breaking of bread and prayers. Um the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to them was his own, but the but that they had everything in common. There was not a needy person among them. Like you said, harmony, life is good, church is thriving, and then enters conflict. And um I love that that this book kind of sprinkles in a little bit of the elder too. Oh, yeah. So you kind of see prepping for the next book. Yeah, you have to be prepping for the next book. And and really being able to see how, you know, just as uh you know, someone that's part of the congregation, how those different roles, you know, are really important. And this really, you know, lines it out very well. If you don't care, I'm gonna read uh Acts 6, 1 through 7, because we keep saying Acts 6, Acts 6, and I think it's good to get this, and and I'm not gonna get the names of these uh these guys right, so bear with me there. But it says, Now in these days, when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists rose against the Hebrews, because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, It is not right that we should give up preaching the word to Sertavus. Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word. And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip and Prochorus, and Ecannor, and Timon, and Parmenus, and Nicholas, proselyte of Antioch. These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid hands on them. And the word and this is what I love, and this is the reason I wanted to read this was conflict entered, they pulled everybody together, the elders knew, you know, exactly, you know, what to do, and the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith. So super important how they handled the conflict. I mean, it could have went, could have gone south, right? Could have absolutely destroyed you know what they were trying to build. But they recognized what was going on, and they they reacted, and and a great many of the priests became obedient to faith. So when conflict uh uh arises, I love that there is that you're talking about the buffer and the uh the shock absorber and and not putting everything on the elders or the pastor. But then being able to have other people on there to help uh is so important for the health of the church.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Well, I think it's interesting to point out who's gonna say that they appointed Greek names. They're all Greek names. So these are the ones, these are the leaders, they're leading their own people, so to speak. They're they're gonna solve the problems um a little more fair. And who better to put somebody in there? Um, I know we just brought up Miracle Lake, but you look at their leader, that guy that spoke, he's been there. Who better to do it than the guy that's been through it?

SPEAKER_08 49:39

Amen. And you know, I picked up on everything both of you are saying, also, and I love this from a shepherd's standpoint more than anything. The model that is left right here is so powerful. We loved the we loved the multiplication of the saints and the preaching of the word so much that we're gonna entrust our people, the Hebrew speaking Jews, right? Our people into outsiders' hands, pretty much. So we don't care about it being us, we care about them and and the and the preaching of the word and the and the uh care for the souls more than we do about anything else, and the word magnified, right? I love that because we, you know, I obviously reflect on there's been a lot of changes locally here in where we are in East Tennessee. You have outsiders, a lot of them that have moved in here, right? Um, that come from different cultures. If we hold the mentality of you're not one of us, or you're not part of the good old boys club, that we're, you know, you're you're not you're not part of that clique, we are going to do a disservice to the church and the flourishing of the saints, which which you guys mentioned, is we have to love unity more than we do the ministry itself. And that that is one thing that was in there that was just like, oh my gosh, that is the heart of these guys was like, I I want to see unity in the church, I want to see discipleship, I want to see people grow and cared for more than I do. And that's what you brought up earlier. It's not about position. You guys find the the deacons, leave it to the body, who do you see serving already? Who do you see caring for the people's needs? And here's a question to put out there for anybody, you know, maybe listening or or thinking about it wherever you're at. If a church, if if the body of believers at a local church was to pick the deacons for their church, would they be the men that are there already? It's a good question to ask. Or would they see something else? And that is where you know how how you govern your church comes into play is uh if you let the congregation pick or give names of suggestions, or it's just a particular group of people that pick for that. So that was some good insight in there, um, Justin. I love that three principles. What was it? There was a conflict.

SPEAKER_07 52:33

Yes. Yeah, everything was going good. There was a conflict. Um the the the elders rose to the occasion, and uh and and getting the congregation involved, I think, was is was really great. Like you said, being able to have a stake in the game, you know. And and here, and there's the action right there, and they'll pick out from among you seven men. Yeah. And I I kept reading act six over and over during this this study. Every day I was just picking up, let's just read Acts six and just let it soak in. Because what I what I kept getting challenged with was if I was there in this time and acts and the act when Acts six was was being written, would I have been one of the seven? Would I be a man of good repute, full of the spirit and wisdom that the others would have looked to me, you know, yes, we want Justin to be one of those seven because of these reasons, because he is a man of good repute, full of the spirit and wisdom. And uh I think more than ever, I know this is a little bit outside of the book, but more than ever before in my walk with Christ, this book challenged me to be praying for wisdom. Yeah. Amen to that, eaker. Yeah. So there is a plan, there is a structure. And uh I think if, like you said, that the church kind of veer from that structure for years and you kind of see some coming up coming back. If we can we can live out that structure, it's already proven. Let's just do what's already been proven. Amen. Um I I really like it. Uh I do think that the very next page is you know, many of our ministry days, however, are occupied by a complaint rose and we get stuck in that.

SPEAKER_08 54:26

I want to comment on that. Go ahead. Uh I think the apostles at this point recognized that the tyranny of the urgent, if they are chained to the ongoing needs of the body that are constant, they are committing a slow suicide for the church. And this is where we talked about in the beginning that Ralton mentioned also the difference in offices, is that there we have to have a group of qualified men to handle the practical needs of the church, or else you're going to commit a suicide, a slow suicide, which the people who need care are not going to get it because you've created a revolving door of urgency for the people that are in office. It should be prayer, preaching of the word, making disciples, guarding the doctrine, which is the job of the elders slash pastors. And so I think this is so good because we see that there are needs everywhere. Like we're constantly in need, and that's a good thing, right? It it helps, it helps form and raise up men uh who can serve in this area. Um, you know, deaconesses are something that are later mentioned in there, um, which is maybe a good topic for another discussion or later discussion. Um, can women serve in that deaconess role? Really taken from Romans 16 for Phoebe. But uh I like that. It's a slow suicide for the church. Um if if you just maintain a need of the urgent all the time.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Yeah, I had a pastor friend one time tell a story. He was about to get up and preach. He was worshiping, had his arms outstretched in worship, singing a song, and he felt this smack on his back. And the guy, a guy came up to him right in the middle of the song and says, Pastor, the toilet's clogged in the men's bathroom. And he's like, Here I am singing praises to the Lord, about to get up and preach, and this guy for some reasons decides to, you know, smack him on the back and say that the toilet in the men's bathrooms clogged up. Right. The the tyranny of the urgent is is uh uh something that again needs to be addressed, yes, but it needs to be done in wisdom, right? Because truthfully, if if there was a better structure in that church at that time, he would have gone to a deacon or he would have grabbed a plunder, right? Right, right. And so um those things off the pastor's focus on what exactly his role is. Yeah, let him focus on proclaiming the word because trust me, from experience, there's a lot more on his mind than he needs to deal with, you know, the bathroom stuff.

SPEAKER_08 57:25

So um I want you to comment on um your I know that you are um raising up some deacons right now and putting them into an office. I want you to comment that in a minute. Is do you have anything else on chapter two that you wanted to bring up? You're kidding, right?

SPEAKER_07 57:40

Chapter two is definitely go about definitely amazing. So again, uh what I what I liked in here is it says that the devil's next attack was the cleverest of the three. Having failed to overcome the church by either uh persecution or corruption, he now tried distraction. If he could preoccupy the apostles with social administration, which through uh which though essential was not their calling, they would neglect their God-given responsibilities to pray and preach and so leave the church without any defense against false doctrine. Um he's still doing that same same thing today, right? But if we if we had that structure in line uh to guard against those attacks, we will be better off. It was so good.

SPEAKER_08 58:42

So are you looking for it? I'll comment on this. The best deacons are men who have uh conflict radar, right? He mentioned that. I was like, that's that's really good. It's the first stage of let's get this thing dealt with and put out before it turns into division or separates the church. And if you've been around for a number of years and you've maybe had the opportunity to serve in multiple churches or been in multiple churches, you know how division can tear apart a church in a heartbeat. And spiritually wise men handling things in truth, in boldness, in courage, and with gentleness and wisdom at the same time can diffuse some of these situations very quickly and keep unity and keep the church um flourishing, right? And so conflict radar is very much important for a um a deacon, right? And so uh elders also have to have that. You have all sorts of things, which Justin mentioned, that are at the door of the church right now in our generation. You have all sorts of things that maybe people don't see that are at the door as far as influences, false doctrines that we have to guard against, um, just weird thinking, all sorts of stuff, uh worldliness, new age movement. We have all sorts of these things pressing against the church and always have, right? And that's where these two roles come together to guard against uh the truth, and the church would be the buttress of truth and hold that mantle of truth, right? Without letting people become you know sidelined or perverted with something that shouldn't be that is anti-biblical, whatever it may be. Um so they need to be full of wisdom, fine-tuned, and radar conflict, and good candidates, which you mentioned. How what's a good candidate for a deacon? A sees a problem, B wants to safeguard unity, C thinks creatively to solve the problem. I mean that's really practical and good, because that's that's what it was, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:01

So oh, so the final thoughts on chapter two from me, uh the things that stood out where elders need deacons to serve practically and deacons need elders to lead spiritually. So it's how those two go hand in hand. There is an inseparable link between the labor of a deacon and the flourishing of the word. Public ministry is impossible without private service. Had the seven not freed the apostles to focus on teaching and prayer, the gospel would not would not have spread. So that's that's the ultimate goal. But whatever we have to do to protect that and that and the model has been given to us, so follow the model. Follow the model. I love it. Chapter two was great.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:45

Yeah, thanks for all your insight in that. Chapter three.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:52

That would be me. Uh, we've got what Deacons Must Be. Um, I I really love this chapter a lot.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:02

Um, what I did for me is I kind of disassociated this chapter with this book and kind of used it as a litmus test for how I should be leading my life in a way. Amen. Um there the big call out for me here was talking about how uh a deacon must lead his household. And I went through everything and I I just I got to thinking, you know, like just kind of self-reflection there. Like, am I leading my household as as godly and correctly as I I can? And there was a lot of things that in that self-reflection that I seen that I could be doing better as a man. Um But as you you go through how many of them are there? Three negative, three positive. Yeah, six, six in total. Um I think those are great things to look at and see if you're doing those in your life. And it also mentioned he puts in uh the back of the book that appendix to the questionnaire that his church gives profoundly wise to do that. Yes, absolutely. But uh, but again, that's if if you didn't go and and read that, I'd I'd encourage you to just take your pen and go back there and answer those questions because it does it makes you think. And I I think what a lot of people aren't necessarily good at, and it it's it's such a good virtue to have. If you can take a look at your life as good as you can from an outside perspective to see the way that you're acting, how other people perceive that, so that way you can try and and build off of that. I think that's a a good mindset to have whenever you go answer those questions. Um because it it does, if you if you can do that, you know, that's and have some humility there, be able to to try and be better, because you know nobody's perfect. And that's I think we can we can all try to strive to be better there. Um I know the the big one with me is you know the the three negatives. Um I I am the world's worst at at number one of not being double-tongued. That's uh I'd be the barbershop's favorite person. I really would. And uh that as I read it, it it clicked with me that you know that is definitely not something that a a good person in that deacon role has. And uh it it was definitely a call-out for me. So yep.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:44

Um gossip, slander, or flattery, or saying one thing to one group and another to another group, which he does uh talk about in there, and this is this is something that is uh very important, is uh if you're in these positions, you cannot have a fear of man. And it doesn't mean you want to be a bull in a china shop either, but you cannot have a fear of man. What you wouldn't say to one person in front of his face, you you don't say behind that person's back then. It reveals that you have a fear of man, you're placating, you're trying to bring uh a deceptive means to peace. And that's not the way to do it. I have been in multiple situations where these where there was extremely hard conversations from a leadership standpoint that needed to be had. And I'm telling you, it is the best in love, in wisdom, to just speak straightforward and not have to placate to wondering if, well, if we do this, you know, this person may, you know, then then their their parents go to the church too. Then we're gonna have this upset group of people. Man, you cannot placate to people like that in the church. When people see strength. And straight talk and love, holding people to account or whatever the situation is biblically, that brings a uh not only a healthy fear for the whole body, but a but it raises the level of righteousness also in how we're modeling uh being accountable to the word of God in our leadership, right? Those are hard things that need to be done. So we can't have the fear of man as leaders. I can't be too worried about what people think about me. You won't last long in anything in life anyway, but I mean, especially in the church, because there's critics all the time. And if we try to navigate spiritually that way, we're going to be defeated right off the get-go. And then the long term is really bad in that. That is a great point, though, um, in those three negatives. Uh, the double tongue, that's slander. And I but this really caught me also was I need, you know, there's been times in my life, and I think just recently in the last year, I have to change the narrative of how I think. Yeah, absolutely. I have to be far more um looking at things from a different lens and so that my heart does not grow discontent or bitter. Because I find myself, I have found myself uh with slander. And it may not be a huge slander, but it it can be slander. And if the Holy Spirit's convicting you of it's slander, then it's slander.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

Well, and this the the double-tongue one is probably, again, my opinion, maybe incorrect, but probably the easiest one to fail at being the shock absorber for the church. You you got a a group of using the widows as an example, you got a group of widows that come to you and you're you're the deacon, and they're saying, you know, this needs to happen, this needs to happen, and the the the preacher's not doing it, so forth and so on, and you're you're trying to placate them. You know, oh yeah, you know, uh Rawden's not, you know, yeah. And then then you turn around and say to the to the pastor, hey, this group group of widows are you know, they they've got an issue, and without speaking the truth to both to both, that's where that's where the the shock absorber you know is not there for the vehicle, right? It's it's a deacon needs to be wise enough, full of wisdom, like you said, to where it's like, okay, let me diagnose this situation. You're coming to me with an issue. I hear your issue, I know you're upset, whatever the case may be. Let's get to the root cause and not just your feelings. I I tell people all the time, I'm like, I want you to correct me, but if you're coming at me, come with your Bible open. Don't come to me with your accusations of your feelings or something like that. That's being a double-tongued deacon is probably, again, in my opinion, maybe incorrect, probably the worst of the offenses, a lot more than even divorce, right? Again, because that's a paper you can see. That's because that to me as an elder, that means I can't trust you. That means I don't need you serving. You know, because again, going back to the division in Acts 6, there were three, just three at that point for the proto-deacons, right? The the models to start out with. Full uh good reputation, full of wisdom, but filled with the spirit. So the deacons still need to be not a fear, not a fear of man, right? Having those those hard conversations, so the guy needing the toilet plunge can not have to, you know, hit on the hit the pastor in the back while they're trying to worship out before they go preach. Um and so that one is a big one to me to me. Again, that's just my personal 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

Well, it's so easy to fall into it. Yeah. Because you can do it with the best intentions. Yeah. You know, you you talk about the widows, you're trying to get, you're trying to please them, right? But you're also trying to please the pastor who may or may not have failed these women or not. Which doesn't matter. The they have come to the deacon. The deacon should be that shock absorber in between and not go to the pastor.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:25

We need to take care of it. But that double-tongued, yeah, you could do this with the best intentions. You're trying just trying to please everybody. Well, it just doesn't work that way. Yeah, it can't. You're gonna fail one side or another, if not both. Because once both sides find out, yeah. And now nobody can trust you, like I said.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

That's where you need the a deacon still needs to be well-versed in God's word.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

Uh to know, to know, okay, practically I need to do something. What does God's word tell me how I need to approach what I need to do? Frank's example was awesome because he he says, I see a need, I go meet it. You know, say yes to Christ.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:02

That's well, in the very beginning, Tristan pointed out, you know, it it needs to slow down.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:10

Just slow down. And at the end of two, he had mentioned this too, right? Sees the problem, wants to safeguard unity. Here's the next step. Thinks creatively.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

That is pump the brakes. Hold on. Let's think about this. How am I going to fix it? Right? Just you don't have to have an answer immediately. Right. Hey, widows, let me get back to you on that. Yeah. Let me go think creatively, right? I think that's that's a huge step right there. That I mean, you may just read over it, but that double-tongued right there. Let me I don't have an answer for you just yet. Let me think on this. Let me not pray about this. Yep. Let me just not speak on this. I know your problem. I've got I wrote this down. We're going to take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

It goes back to your tyranny of the urgent, right? We want, we want to please, deacon want to do, but you got you got to be wise enough to say, okay, let me let me take a step back and see the see the whole picture as best you can. There are going to be times when everybody falls and fails. I get that. But when you go in and say, Oh, I need to please these people to, I'm going to say this bluntly, shut them up and get them off my back, right? Um, that we the church doesn't need that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

And do it in a way that you're not just song discord among the brethren. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:33

Amen.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:34

Yeah, and I think that's really wise. And I think a great, you know, it's not directly mentioned, but it is in everything that you guys said is that the uh a deacon does have to have the ability to say, we're gonna, I'm gonna slow this down. I'm gonna get the people to just pause a minute, you know, and get them to wait for a second and and assure them that I'm gonna work on it and get back to them. Um because what causes uh a lot of the problems is that things aren't resolved, uh this discussions aren't had, um, and and um people aren't assured that whatever has come up in the situation is getting worked on, and there is a direct link of communication that comes back. Hey, here's the deal. We're taking care of this, we've talked to everybody about it, or we're gonna solve it. That brings peace, and that's what you're trying to do, peace in the body, right? Keep unity and peace in the body. Those are all great insights for sure. Anything that would, and Frank mentioned, anything that would sow discord intentionally would be something that is very sinful.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:47

Go ahead, Logan. Um I I think my my second point that I I have here. Um, I guess I had assumed going into this that in order to be considered a a deacon is that, you know, it's it's somebody that has to have that theological doctorate, PhD level understanding of everything. And that's um on page 66 there. The the quote that I really liked says, this doesn't mean a deacon must be the biggest reader in the church, but it does mean he'll be hungry to learn the things of God. I have that highlighted too. Yeah. So it's it's somebody that has that that calling to serve um uh the people in the church, but it's also somebody that has that calling of they understand they don't know everything, but they're hungry. That is such a great point.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:41

They're hungry to want to. That shows a heart, right? Yeah. Um it really does show a heart. Like, hey, I don't I'd like to learn more about that rather than I know everything because I hold this position. Amen. But that's all of us at some point. But I want to learn more about that. Like teach me.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:59

Yeah. Um But my my final point that I'll I'll make um on on the negative or the positive? Like through negative or through three. This this is for the the whole chapter here on this. Um in on 69, it's got under the the promise section. It says, He knows that deaconing is not for the faint of heart. Much of it is thankless grunt work, not stage work. So, what will keep a deacon going amid exhaustion and discouragement? A promise. And this is from 1 Timothy 3 13. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the face, faith that is in Christ Jesus. And I'm gonna brag on the you know, the guy that we've talked about here quite a few times because I literally wrote Frank right outside of it. Um I I can't think of a a better example of a deacon that I've I've had in my life than than Frank there. I mean, him and and Connie, that's whenever Caitlin and I are having to do things, you know, with the the band or the sound or anything like that, you know. Hey, we we got two kids that we're trying to serve the church in in this role. Those two show up unannounced. They they know we have that need. And they take those kids so that way we can focus on that. And it's it's even whenever my son was in the hospital, um, Caitlin and I were we're driving back and forth to try and switch out. And we needed somebody to come watch my daughter so that way I could go get Caitlin and take her back. I called Frank before I called anybody else in my family. And I think that that just goes to show, I know that he has such a heart of wanting to serve a need that I had in that moment. He was already serving a family member. He was watching, you know, his his nieces, but he still found it in his heart that him and Connie came over and Connie watched my daughter so that way we could take care of ourselves there. And it's I I the the entire chapter as I was reading it, I just I kept seeing examples of I was like, man, Frank does that. Yeah, man, Frank does that. And that's uh I just I I got that. Amen.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:20

An honor.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:21

You go, man.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:22

Uh so wrapping up this chapter, there's a couple of little nuggets that I had maybe uh if anybody wants to comment on. How many times has a church hurt itself by installing deacons or a deacon who's not qualified? Would it be good to have a questionnaire, like a lot of I think strong churches have, is there's nothing wrong with asking uh uh a somebody who wants to become a member or uh in an office of ministry to fill out something. Somehow we think that this is a negative thing. We're asking too much, we're asking too little of people, is what we're doing. And we've we've the bar is so low that uh unfortunately we see some of the problems that are created in the l in the local churches because the bar's so low. When we raise the bar, everybody comes up. Everybody will come up if you raise the bar to where it should be. I mean biblically. But if we lower it, everybody suffers. So is there is there a hurt that can be done by installing people who are maybe not quite there yet for whatever various reasons? Maybe a a um questionnaire, is that good? Some sort of vetting process? You mentioned the three negatives and three positives. A faithful family man. Listen to this quote. There is no such thing as a deacon who is a lousy husband or dad. I was when we um when I was on staff, uh associate pastor and senior pastor, we would ask when we were going to bring an elder on, uh, we would ask to meet with the wife first privately and say, How is your husband? Like behind closed doors. I see, I ain't gonna say it in front of him, like, really. What is your view of him as a leader, as a servant in the home? And sometimes, man, we had we had a guy. I want to be very vague here. We had a guy who had a lot of money and very powerful, great dude, love the Lord. Um, very influential on the church, it still is. But in private, his wife said, Don't do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:38

Whoa.

SPEAKER_08 1:19:39

Yeah. So that's where you're like, okay, you cannot appease man. You've got you just we've got to slow this process down, at least for now, and say no. And so that's because there were things, and listen, I've I've been in the same place um before. Um, we all go through, I think, things in marriage we have to recalculate, reset. I mean, maybe some of us do, maybe some don't. But I have had to do that to where I was like, you know what? I have a really crappy husband in this area. I really need to change this right now. And those are things that are very, very important before we serve in any capacity in an official office to make sure that the home is dialed in. So that was a great quote. Um and I do want to mention that he does mention this in this chapter. Must love his wife and be faithful to her as a one-woman man. And that's really what that uh the wording is there as far as faithfulness, serving one's spouse faithfully in this present time. Uh, I don't think it's that whole passage is not talking about if a person's divorced, but rather are they faithful now and to evaluate that particular thing as a one-woman man and his reputation, obviously. So uh questions that would disqualify a person. If I've looked at porn in my life, am I disqualified? I mean, where do you draw the line in this? Because this is where we have to be careful. Uh a single guy, he's not married, so he doesn't meet the qualifications if you're looking at it by the leather of the law. I mean, uh Men that don't men that uh are not talkative or grumpy or have a bad attitude. I mean, where do you draw the line? So these things have to be very carefully vetted by the leaders of the church at a case on a case-by-case basis.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:38

Um, how do you go against that if it kind of says it but and playing black and white, like take the single man, for instance? Like, yeah, it basically states on in the part of office that you know you it's a married man's role role. How do you how do you go against that, even if it is the elders of the church, whoever's making the decisions whether this deacon is acceptable or not, how how do you go against that?

SPEAKER_08 1:22:10

My first, and you comment on this, but my first uh for an exegetical research of the text would be my first, and to say, does it say number one, single men cannot serve? So that would be my first thing to say. Well, it doesn't, there's a lot of things that are more vague than they are explicit, right? So it would say that, hey, we're assuming a person is married at this point who can serve or not. I think the the Holy Spirit would be very particular in saying, but single men cannot serve in this office if that was the rule of thumb, right? That's what I think. You you're dealing with also um what's happening at the times. You didn't have a lot of single men at the times that were serving in the church, right? You didn't have a lot of divorced people. You you had uh also polygamy that was happening at the time. So this one woman, speaking of divorce, is it talking about does it specifically say that if you've been divorced, you cannot serve? And some of these things they have to be weighed. Let's look at the grammar, let's look at the context, let's look at the time, you know, the historical nature of it, what did the church father say about it? Let's gather as much data on it as we can before we make a decision. So, my particular view on this would be um if it doesn't say that particular specifically, we have to be very cautious not to implement something that is not completely descriptive in scripture first.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:42

So, what I would add to that is so because the text says, you know, husband and one wife, literally one woman man. So if you want to, if if you would want to uh deem a single person in that role, a single man in that role, that's where the investigation comes into play as well for two things. Number one, okay, this person is single. Is he pursuing a wife rightly, or is he going out with 18 different women all at one time? Right? So that's the investigation part because that shows his heart of okay, he's looking to become a one-woman man versus he's playing the field.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:26

Or what if what if he feels called to be single?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:29

Right. Which is in scriptures. And Paul was single, right? So um, so you have you have to look at the heart of the person in that instance, right? That's a wisdom of the church of looking at because we don't know if the guys in Act Six were married. It doesn't say it we don't know. Um, so that's number one, you have to investigate, examine, right? Because it says in here they first must be tested. Deacons must be tested. So there's there is this examination that has to happen of a guy's heart. Then number two, as an elder of the church and as the church, you have to consider okay, if we put this person in as a deacon and they're single, will that be a stumbling block to the congregation's unity? And it may be, yes. Okay, so let's slow down, let's wait, see what happens, continue to teach, continue to bring everyone up closer to Christ, and then examine this later. Or this guy's single, okay. The church still deems him qualified to be a deacon. Let's let him serve. He he meets all the rest of the qualifications, he's just single. Okay, and so it's it's it's a twofold investigation, right? Number one, is he meeting the intent of the the office? Number two, is it going to unify the body overall? Right. Same same top question with the divorce, depending on the circumstance. Again, this is all circumstantial. Depending on the circumstances, you have to ask yourself as a leader of the church, okay, this this gentleman is divorced, we've gone through the circumstances, we prayed through, he's living right now. However, the church may not be ready for him to serve in this capacity at this time. Let's slow down, let him serve without the title, show his heart, and then and then move forward from there. So um, because again, the qualifications of a deacon are all posted elsewhere for just the qualifications to be a Christian, if you will. Not that there are qualifications, but what we should strive to be. And so uh we just have to continue to want to grow, full of wisdom, full of the spirit, continually growing. Um but to to Tristan's point, right? It's it's uh it doesn't explicitly say no, but there is some wisdom in the vetting process, a little bit of will my congregation see this person, does my congregation actually see this person serving in this office? Not that it's the fear of man, but if they meet all the qualifications, if you push something through as a leader just because of your ego, you're not leading well, right? So you you there is some contextual implications that you have to go through.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:59

And I think at the End of the day when the church is functioning as we see it in the book of Acts. If you brought something, if the elders would bring something before the body and say, hey, listen, we've been prayerful about this, we've thought this through, we've talked about it from a biblical standpoint, we've looked at every different angle that we could, we've come to this decision. A, um, and here's why we came to it.

SPEAKER_09 1:28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:28:27

Um, you want the church to go, these are our elders, man. We trust them, right? Their track record is good. Man of wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:36

They said, Congregation, you pick them. Yeah. Congregation picked them. Apostles at that point, apostles prayed and said, Okay, we'll we'll go with that. Yeah. That pleased the entire congregation. Now, again, I'm reading a little bit into the text, but remember who was an apostle. Peter was an apostle. Peter was racist. You know, not in the biggest sense of the word, but he was a Jew first. Right. Right? And here they bring all these Greeks in. And I'm sure Peter in in Peter's mind was like, just from himself first, working in the flesh, he'd probably which he got rebuked for.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:18

Exactly. Yeah, Paul rebuked him for the year. Later, later. Yeah, you're placating to these people at one point. Correct. Then you're playing on this team at the other.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:26

But we see there's so much in the church structure, in the deacons and elders discussion. We see the need for all of these offices, but we see the need for the church taking responsibility too, and then working as this body, right? Because everyone can't serve as a deacon, everyone can't serve as an elder, everyone, however, does have um the uh need to the congregation holds the keys, right? They're the one who who ultimately also needs to be responsible. Uh and so um, you know, this whole system, if you will, has to work together. And and there's some wisdom in how that looks and how that is played out.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:13

I think my question was more about traditional. Yeah, are we stuck in traditionalism by not allowing somebody who's been divorced to, you know, and why would traditionalism not or you rephrase that church, not forgive the man of that. Hey, he was he divorced five years ago, six years ago. Well, this other guy was in cuffs ten years ago. He went to court for this, he went to prison for this. Why are we allowing this guy to do it and not the guy that's been divorced? Is there a traditionalism issue in the church itself on it is m was more of my question. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:48

And there is some ultimately there, yeah. And it's stuff that each church has to work very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:54

Yeah. No, you guys brought, I mean, it's it's been great. It's yeah. I had a question.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:59

Sorry. No, go ahead. Um like the the single thing, like, you know, you know, I had to look it up just now because I can't I'm really bad about knowing exactly what chapter and stuff is stuff. But Paul describes that it's best to be single. And so, you know, he was And why does he say that?

SPEAKER_08 1:31:17

Because I could focus on the needs of the church rather than the needs of the home.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:20

Yeah. So uh it doesn't make sense that you would disqualify somebody that was serving everybody just because they chose to not be married, or that God did not provide a wife.

SPEAKER_08 1:31:33

And so that this is what Ryan's question was. We have to f flesh all these things out, right? As we've looked at it from every angle, and here's why we've come to this decision.

unknown 1:31:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:43

And the and the one thing that we don't want to get lost in this discussion is there's prayerful consideration in this. Right? There may be guys that meet all these qualifications that as you're praying through it, or as they're praying through it, because the congregation says, I we think you need to serve in this situation. The guy may be praying through it as like, I don't think God wants me to be in this position. Again, we it goes back to tradition where a guy gets in office and I'm here for a lot. Or um But they need to pray. There needs to be prayerful consideration of everything that goes on in this, because this is this this is heavy. The next this one and the next one are heavy because these are the people that will have to give an account before the Lord for the souls of the church.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:45

And you will be able to tell the health of the church by these next by this book and the next one. Yeah, and I think this to answer, you know, for I want you to go to your next questions, you had a thought. Um, but I think this is um a great discussion as far as uh how do we go about working all these things out to make these decisions? And and that is a great, I'm glad you brought that point up. Because yeah, scripture does say, hey, Paul says I I could really focus on the ministry. Was he married? Well, that's not info that is direct in scripture. You have all sorts of speculation and inferences. Oh, it's it he says who says it using Paul's says it's in the singing. Yeah, so is he single at the time or did he have a wife? That's our question. Yeah. So those are things to to look at.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:37

What was your I don't know if I can get this out of my head into words to make it make sense, like what I'm thinking, but is it possible that he speaks of this man or this qualification as a deacon being married because Christ says to love your wife as Christ loves the church? So therefore, is it a symbolization of we want this qualification to be a one-woman man because he knows how to love his wife as Christ loved the church, so therefore will he serve his church with love and hundred percent and uh commitment and faithfulness just as a married man is supposed to love his wife?

SPEAKER_08 1:34:25

100%. I think that that is the because marriage is an illustration of the gospel, right? And I think it even goes deeper than that. What kind of dad is he? Is he a legalist? Oh, I don't want a guy like I don't want a deacon like that in our church that's you're full of legalism. Is that how you raise your kids? Because what's gonna happen when they're 18? Yeah, right, they're gone. Or is it tender, right? Is shepherding, right? Caring, full of wisdom. Like, uh, or is he always I mean, there's so many layers to this. Is he always at church and his kids suffer? That was me in the past, you know, 15, 20 years ago. I was like, we're going seven days a week, maybe, to church. Don't worry about sports. That is idolatry. We're gonna serve the Lord, right? And what happens? You just wear everybody out, right? That that's not good leadership. That wasn't good leadership on my part.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:23

I think your your point's well taken, though, and that's why when I answered about if if the per if a person is single, right? Is their life needs to be inspected, right? It says in the text, test them. And so is that is that single person, is that single man looking to get married? Is he managing his household, whatever that looks like, right? Well, because there are so many nuances to this, right? Because what if the spouse has passed away? Right. And he does look and finds another mate and gets remarried. You know, those questions need to be addressed and answered and worked through and prayed about and thought through, uh, because you know, he's remarried. Same question with an elder, right? Yeah, that same question is going to come up if a spouse passes away. And and different churches have handled it differently. I have my opinions and uh of of that, but you know, it's it's things that need to be prayed through for the sake of the body, yeah, as as as you work through these qualifications. I would venture, again, me personally, not not speaking for even my church, you you proceed with caution and wisdom and prayerfulness and not just oh, he checks all these boxes. Because like Tristan said, a guy can check all the boxes and his family be in disarray, or his financial situation be in disarray, or um he is a he is a people pleaser and double tongue. Those things need to be investigated a lot better than I think churches as a whole do today. Rather than we see a gifting, let's let's he's good at spreadsheets, he's good at Home Depot and fixing things. Yeah, he's a deacon. Yeah. Again, while those traits are all great, yeah, 100%. There needs to be some prayerful consideration given uh because the the the testing going back to raising the the stakes a little bit, right? It's called for. It if a if a person comes to me and and says, Hey, I want to be a deacon, great. We're gonna watch this for a long time. You know, it's not it's just because you come off the street and you're gifted, sorry.

SPEAKER_08 1:38:02

Well, that's a the the discussion I brought up the very first story. Yeah, the same guy is dealing with something right now in his church. You've got a young guy, he's like, Well, I'm gonna get ordained. It's like, nah, I don't really think you're ready for that, buddy. Well, I you I mean, uh you I well, I preached like three Sundays in a row at another church, but you're there's like but I think this cultural thing, Papa is Papa Papa is a pastor, right? So I'm that's just what we do, right? And he's like, I'm not gonna ordain you. He's like, well, I'm gonna go down the street and the church is gonna ordain me down there. Why would the church down the street not call the other church and say, hey, can you tell us if this guy's in good standing? Right. I mean, these this is where we've gone. It's a whole different discussion in the depth of the problems of the church that we have now is because of this area, is that we're all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:54

I know examples of of that to the extreme, yes, where uh a person requested a church to be ordained, and the church said, We don't think so, and the next words out of this person's mouth was, Do you know how much money I give to this church? Yeah. Fortunately, the response was we don't care. You know, but but there's that fear of man that comes in, right? Sometimes sometimes it's like, oh, our budget's gonna take a hit if we don't do this, and and they cave. And it's like, again, the qualifications are in there for a reason. You have to work through them, and you have to come out the other side with the clear enough conscience to say, as best we could, we followed what God's word says. And and there's gonna be failures and faults and and things that we've that we just don't see, and and people are going to uh you know make judgments based on well, I like this guy versus that guy, or whatever. You gotta work through all those. Uh but you don't you don't start with the toolbox that the guy has, you start with the guy's heart, yeah. And and kind of go from there.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:13

What you got? What I love about um this book that really opened my eyes was that the diagonal service can be different depending on the need of the church, right? So when you're looking at everything you're saying about qualifying somebody and and and going through those questions and seeing, you know, are they the right fit? Are they the right fit for what need? You know, and and I I never looked at the position, you know, like I like I do now with this, okay, what what is the need? We can feel that need through establishing a deacon to go meet that need. And I mean, once that need is met, maybe that deacon's not, you know, they're not in that role anymore. Right. Um thinking of like the lifelong deacon versus what's the need at the time, establishing a qualified candidate to meet that need at that time, and then maybe you're maybe you're moving on to the next need. And maybe that deacon is not the right person to fill the role for them for that next need, right? It might be somebody else.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:15

I'm glad you mentioned that because I I think that it's wise to say, look, you know what, we're gonna have a a one-year commitment or a two-year commitment, and then we reevaluate to see if this person's gonna be asked back on the to be a deacon or an elder or a pastor, whatever it is. You we have a commitment. Um we're gonna reevaluate that to see if the heart's still there. Who knows what's changed, right? So I think these kind of eternal positions that are in the church are very dangerous. We should have wisdom says a commitment level. Let's reevaluate that. Maybe your heart's changed and you feel like doing something else. We don't want you to be stuck in this either. We care about you.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:51

So that's a slippery slope, too, though, because you know, uh in that case, the example you gave, like this is where the church needs to be educated on it too. Because if Justin is a a deacon, then I'm going to church, and then I hear in a year and a half Justin's no longer a deacon because that meet has been net met and no longer needed in that role. Me as just a lay churchgoer, I'm thinking, what did Justin do wrong? He's not a deacon anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:20

And that and that's where that's where the leadership the leadership has to be very clear and very very concise, and and working with the congregation, right? Uh the health of the church, let me let me put it this way. I I see for my church where I would like us to go, where I prayfully think we need to go and how to get there. I want to get there like tomorrow, right? But I know that I can't get there without teaching the church from scripture this is why I think this way. And so, you know, again, this is heavy, right? Because Justin's right. There healthy churches a lot of times are structured that way. Right now, there are certain needs that will always be with a church. There's gonna be a benevolence ministry of some kind, so that that's gonna be always there, but you may need a deacon to oversee your IT infrastructure as an example. Once that's set up and running, that's gonna change in the future. That person may not change with it. That deacon can go on a deacon of parking lots, yeah. Whatever the case may be. Yeah, that's the one that head man. Yeah, the the the the practical examples are you know, in this day and age, security. That that's a deaconate role to take care of the needs of the church. Times may change where that is no longer needed, or it may need to be bolstered.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:10

Yeah, right? Probably bolstered at this point, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:13

But but because of tradition and the and the models that we've seen, whether they thought they were being faithful or not, they might not have been correct. Or it's correct in that context and not correct in ours, because the needs in Ephesus are gonna be different from the needs in Crete. Oh, sure. Right. And so you have to prayerfully consider all of these things because it's gonna be different. Each church is gonna be different, each congregation is gonna be different, even if they're in the same city or the same valley.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:49

And what brings I mean, uh, and let's want you to ask any more questions you have, or we'll move on to the next chapter. But what brings the ultimate peace to a congregation is the shepherd or the shepherds stand up and they say, Hey, we want to let you know. Justin has faithfully served in two years in this capacity. Or actually, Justin, can you come up and explain why he's gonna be moving on from this deacon position? Lack of communication in the church like that and mystery destroys a church, right? But some of the so just disappeared. Where'd they go? What happened?

SPEAKER_07 1:45:24

I mean, double punk people take over.

SPEAKER_08 1:45:28

So our job is to bring, well, the leader's job is to bring clear communication, correct, settle the body, right, give them the reasons why things are happening or not happening, and move on. Right. And that that does a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:40

Do you have anything more on that? No, I I think it's a perfect segue into chapter four, you know, because it I mean that hit it. I mean, that's what we exactly we hit. Take us there. Yeah. You know, my my Christian walk in life as always in churches has been pastor, deacons, congregation, basically. Like the whole concept of elders is kind of foreign to me in a way because I've just never it's never any church that I've been a part of has never really been set up in that way. Or if they've been elders, never been hold a position. You know what I mean? Like it's never been formal. So like this chapter separating deacons and elders, and um somebody said it earlier, like the basically the the deacons serve by servantship, and the elders lead by by teaching, you know, and so and you don't cross those lines, really, because the the deacons are doing that position, so the elders have the freedom, the ability to be able to teach and have the time and and effort. And so that's kind of so I'm a firefighter, and I was thinking earlier as y'all were talking. The way our structure, command structure goes is you go firefighter in most departments, firefighter, lieutenant, captain, chief, right? So on the fire ground, whatever we're working, we try to keep it from capping down because we're in the operations level of working. And we know that if we get it to the chief's, if whatever situation gets to the chief's level, for one, it's definitely going to get way more complicated and gonna take a lot longer to mitigate than than what we can handle. But we also know that they have a lot more they have to handle from a uh not the command point, but you know, a lot more information, a lot more logistics, everything else that's going in their structure versus our structure. So if we can keep it at our level below, then it's a whole lot better. Same thing with the deacons. If they can handle situations, if they can mitigate situations, if they can see those situations coming and take care of before it ever needs to go to a next level or involve other people, then it's a I mean, it pinpoints the the need for it, you know, like on that point, and that's why I try to reference it back to the to the fire ground because that's what we do is we keep it away from the chiefs. So because more than likely somebody that doesn't deal with it every day. I mean, you can probably relate to this. If you went to an elder or you even take it to Neil at that point, like he's not used to dealing with it from our church's standpoint, but it's probably gonna get a lot more complicated and a lot longer to take care of. Well, you pile 30 of those things up, and you're you know, you're community. Um y'all took my shock exorbitants. I had that underlined.

SPEAKER_08 1:48:45

So you're chapter four, what deacons must do, right? Okay, you're on that one. Um who else had this chapter?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:55

Well, I think he's great to point that out because of what changed recently in our church as far as um not really a deacon of a parking lot, but we somebody's putting out barrels now. There was a need, there was a a a risk there. And deacons, somebody took charge. We're taking care of it. Is is our elders out there putting the barrels out there? Is pastor out there putting the barrels? No. They have other things to worry about. Yeah, and I think that's a great illustration because it just happened, right? This has been what, a month, two months when we just started doing this. And I think that's that's that look that is a show of a healthy church. You know, it's moving in the right direction, right? Um, so I think it's great that you point that out.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:39

Well, I had to open my eyes because if I'm just showing my two year old mindset that keeps coming up, I thought the deacons were just like the old people of the church that you know, like you are the you're the father.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:58

There's a few of us in that. Clap, be careful now.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:01

I wish you all could see the church that I come from because that's what I reference back to, not the church that I'm currently, because you know, if I had to give an illustration, old, old Baptist hymns, which there's nothing wrong with it, but there's only like four or five that you can only sing, or people are going to walk out during the service. If the pastor ain't wrapping it up by, you know, 1158. No, 1202, they're already cracking around. If he ain't wrapping up by 1158, they're you know, that's the church I came from. So seeing just an older congregation of that were supposed to be quote unquote leaders, elders, deacons, like I just didn't have that mentality of it. So this book really helped out on one learning about it, but number two, deciphering between the two and and the difference. Um so here's what that I underlined it. If elders serve by leading, deacons lead by serving. Um and then it also pointed out elders lead ministry, deacons facilitate ministry, the congregation does ministry.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:12

Such a great three-point harmony there.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:16

Which goes back to uh what was our uh was it evangelism that was talking about, you know, that they're looking to the leaders and of the elders and pastor of the church to do the uh boxes. Yeah, the the ministry and the shoe boxes it's the congregation that should be doing it. Um if you're a deacon, I hope it's clear that you have been called to far more than a monthly meeting. Deaconing is not an extracurricular activity for your spiritual resume, is the means by which your savor has savior has chosen you in this season of your life, which we just talked about on the you could serve for a quick period of time or for a long. Um and then I guess summing up my part. This really uh kind of hit home with me was um it was talking about going back to Craig, who was telling the rest of the deacons to listen, like you need to hear your hearts out and not be cold and listen to Pastor Ryan. And uh I'm your pastor today, so here we go. Um to hear out their young Pastor Ryan on the topic of church leadership, it was the right move. But why? Well, not because Pastor Ryan necessarily had it all figured out, he may not have, nor because deacons must check their brains at the door, they shouldn't. Since they are a mere handyman, there are they aren't, nor because deacons have no right to register disagreement with their pastor or elders, they do. The reason this was the right move is because God's people, from the oldest leader to newest believer, should always be open to revisiting assumptions and revising practices in the light of God's word.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:07

Meaning, well, we just don't do it because it's the way we've always done it.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:12

Yes. Yeah, that is very healthy. And they're not just this, or they're not just this, like you still need to do all this. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 1:53:21

There was some, and that's a really good insight, brother. There I and I had it here in the notes, like what deacons must do, they must be open. A good deacon will be open to fresh ideas, right? Uh, rather than I've been here for 25 years in this role, there's nothing you can teach me. And that was the we will see, listen, we went and, you know, before we landed where we're at right now, we went and visited some churches around the area. And the there were at least two or three that was like, this church is about five years away, most likely, from being non-existent. But there what we you have to capture the ability, I believe, from a leadership standpoint when you have a when you have a good uh generational um congregation is to begin to train, raise up the next generation, or else it's it's you can fall into the gravesite mentality where this is the way we've always done it, and we're not we're not open to fresh ideas. I mean, the the the piano's been there for 30 years in the same position, you don't move it, right? Or you always you only sing this, but I think it a good deacon always has to be open to fresh ideas, right? Hey, let's let's look at this. I mean, is it a good thing? Because God's methodology all the way from Genesis to Revelation. It didn't stay the same. The message stayed the same, the methodology changed continuously. And I think that's good to say, hey, if there's some methodology that we can change to make things healthier or better, and it's not sinful, it's it's gonna benefit the body. By all means, let's visit it. What I think kills and stifles is the um closed-mindedness of, well, you know, we we've been doing it this way for a long time. Well, that's cool. I think there's a lot of good stuff in tradition. I really do. Um I obviously some of us have come from the West Coast where we didn't have church tradition like it's here. But what you had and what I what what I've learned by moving like to East Tennessee more in the south here is that well, we just uh those are those are California things that you've brought over here. No, no, actually not. Listen, let me tell you something. You plant a church, so you you plant a church in the middle of Compton where you have bloods and crypts, you have prostitution, you have gang warfare, you have racial divisions. It actually means something to be a believer there. Like you are actually picking up your cross to become a visible witness of Christ there, rather than you come maybe not everywhere here, but you come over here and it's like, well, there's a there's a history and a tradition, which I value so much. But if you don't meet in the middle somewhere and say, listen, we are part of this thing together, you're going to you're going to close the barrier for any fresh ideas or things that have been viewed differently. And you're going to close yourself off to the history and goodness of tradition itself. What's lasted for 180 years in our little local church here? Why is it uh obviously God's faithfulness? But merging those two things together, you have to have people that are open-minded to hear, right? And not stifle fresh ideas. And and you've been really good at that too, is being open-minded to hear. And it's not new ideas, it's like, is this in scripture? Let's start there. If it's in scripture, it supersedes cultural and tradition no matter where it's at. And we should get back to that. So that was a good point, also. I think fresh ideas. You kind of brought that up in your um job descriptions. Uh, what deacons must do? Proactive, right? They must first model the let's agree spirit. I like that. Avoid the clones and uniformity mentality, which cults do, and not suppress people from expressing opinions. So we they have to be open to hear. Ah, yeah, no, sister, that was a little crazy idea. Not sure we're gonna go with that, but thank you so much for sharing. Right? Well, unity is not uniformity. Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:39

That's important.

SPEAKER_08 1:57:42

Anybody else on chapter four? You guys take off on chapter five.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:55

I think Joe and John Hacker. Yeah, I got yeah, I'm on it too. Um chapter six. Oh, yeah, chapter six. You got five? Yeah, I got five. Well, it's just you know, it was I enjoyed reading chapter five. Like I felt like it was really good for me to see like just different churches, different roles, and different examples of what what a deacon should be, like how it's supposed to go, like what are what are real world difficulties that they're facing, and like how did they come up with a solution? How did it work? You know, seeing that seemed to be really good. And like, I mean, I will start with one that one thing that I was it bothered me a little bit, and uh, you know, maybe you can help me with that. Like, it's the one about the the church in Iraq, it's on page 98. It's the last sentence of that paragraph. And I guess he's he went to a funeral of I guess it was his father or something. I said, if I died, he thought no one would show up to my funeral and tell the kind of stories I heard at my dad's. And I'll I'll be honest, that kind of bothered me a little bit because it felt like it was looking for the recognition, the pride of it. And leading up to this, like I really felt like the the deacon was someone that is like a special ops guy that he does a role, but special ops guys are almost invisible. Like you don't see them, like they're not they're not at the front of the parade. Like they're they're in and out achieving a goal, and like it felt like you're reach you're you're reaching for some sort of recognition, and you know, I that bothered me a little bit.

SPEAKER_08 1:59:43

Let me comment on that real quick. Legacy is something that's in the Bible that is can be very effective. And we see this in Hebrews 11: a cloud of witnesses that have gone before us, right? No, these are the men uh or the the people, right, that have left a legacy of faithfulness to God. That's a healthy thing. I think that's a very healthy thing. Not for self-boasting, but uh other people are talking about it, not yourself. So I think that's the difference. And I I I mean, you even think about special ops, Michael Murphy, right? We're we're still doing the Murph every year because of the legacy that he left. Those things can be very effective.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:21

Right. So I've got a real world example. So one of my spiritual mentors was my grandfather on my mom's side. Uh, little country church in Seymour, um old traditional, everything we've talked about previously. He was a deacon there uh for years and years, and he served faithfully and had so many preachers come in and go out because you know, this is little country church, same old people. Every once in a while you get a new family, and then they grow old, you know, all this stuff for years served. And he had one bias, he smoked a pipe, which ultimately was what killed him. But uh in his later years, he couldn't go to the church because he was always in the hospital, and and so he had um he was bedridden at his house, and it was summertime, so I was there, I was a teenager at the time, and um hadn't been to church in months because of his physical condition. And had the church called another pastor, young guy, and the preacher wanted to come see this guy he heard about, never met. You know, it's a deacon of the church that um you know was a star in the community and everything. And so I remember my grandfather could not set up at all. He was just a bedridden, he was but he told my mom and my grandmother, I have to set up the preacher's coming. And so the preacher came, he got in his chair, he could barely talk, but the preacher was asking him, you know, what do you what do you want to do with the rest of your time remaining? He goes, My grandfather said this. He goes, I want to see that church full and I want to help you do that. And um grandmother passed away at the funeral there at the church. The church probably faded. There was a line out the door down the road of hundreds of people because of the faithful service of my grandfather as a deacon, and he helped that pastor fill that church up, and hundreds heard the gospel that day at his funeral. That's the service of a deacon.

SPEAKER_08 2:02:58

And I think regarding the legacy is that those things can be very powerful. Of how did this individual serve the Lord faithfully to the end? Or how did they work through difficulty, or whatever it may be, legacies are extremely important, not for self-glory, but for God's glory. And so I think it's very healthy. Actually, the Bible speaks of legacies throughout the book of Hebrews in chapter 11. These people have gone before us, right, to to motivate us spiritually to be like, yeah, pick up, pick it up, let's go, right? And so I think those things can be very healthy. Hope that answers. That does.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:50

Right.

SPEAKER_08 2:03:50

That's everything's hey, look at him. Right? It should be correct.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:55

Should be. Should be. But to Josh's point, back in chapter four, uh it says biblical deacons then are like a congregation's offensive lineman whose job is to protect the quarterback. They rarely get attention, much less credit, but their labors are utterly indispensable for both guarding and advancing the ministry of the world. And then it says, Pastor, when I when eyeing future deacons, look for godly saints who see and meet needs discreetly, they don't need or want credit. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:26

So I mean, kind of I see I see where you're Yeah, like I that was just my question. I was like, you know, I read this and I'm like, I feel like we're we're going down this path, and it's really, you know.

SPEAKER_08 2:04:39

This is where the testing comes in, right? Is that hey, this person that's maybe nominated for this particular thing, do they like self-glory? Right? This is part of the testing process. Do they do things just out of the abundance of joy to seeing other people blessed or to help the leadership or whatever it is? Those are the testing things that need to be weighed in this process. Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:00

And that's that's why the fulfillment of one another's within the congregation actually is so important. Right? It's as an elder leader of the church, I'm looking for the people who are doing stuff that nobody knows by. And that that's the person that I'm keeping an eye on because you know, they're doing it. And I'll mention it in in passing what I see happening when there are good things happening at the church. You know, I'll even put it out there on social media for them, not by name, but here's what I see God doing here, right? Just like the last Sunday from my office at the church, I can hear most of the Sunday school classes going on with my door open. And at certain points, every one of them presented the gospel to adults who profess to be Christians, to kids who are just coming to church because their parents bring it. That's glorious. And it wasn't because those teachers wanted the the recognition for it, it's they were fulfilling the faithful mission of the church to proclaim Christ. So, and that's the that's the mindset that deacons need to have. And then I think that gentleman over there has based on what everybody said.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:24

I mean, I I saw it, like I I was fortunate enough that I got to go with you guys to to help the that lady move. And man, that was really fun. I mean, it you know, picking up furniture is not like exactly fun, but like seeing a bunch of people that like I mean, I knew I knew you and you and a couple of guys, and that was it. Like I didn't know anybody, and that was not my not my family, that was nobody else, and but it was you know, it was fun to see a bunch of people working together, and it was it was that was kind of like the you know, the the ants thing in throughout the Bible, where you know that there's not so necessarily a leader, but everybody's working, and it was it was all being accomplished. So it was that was pretty fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:12

But it becomes more family. You know, we we were all just laughing and and goosing each other, and yeah. I mean, it's a family. We are all family, just doing manual labor. It wasn't hard by any means because there were so many of us made it easy. Yeah, we're just having fun. The end result was the lady was blessed. God was glorious. Yes, but at the same time, like he's saying, we became closer. Yes, absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:40

Yeah, and uh and I think like, you know, not to bounce around in this chapter a whole lot, but like towards the end, it like it goes into more specific examples of like the the on page 107, the godly woman saw a gap in the source with the helps ministry, which is exactly what I think we were doing. Like this lady needed help, like she needed the bunch of dudes with strong backs that are gonna carry heavy stuff, it was one house away. I mean, it was right next door, but she's not gonna be able to do that for her, yeah, for herself. And like I, you know, I I like this as a ministry, like the the homebound people, like, you know, you just you're reaching out to them so that they are not left alone. Because I used to work in the Medicare world, and you know, I would have to go visit people, and sometimes people you would you would see people, and the only contact they had with the outside world was maybe their doctor, like whether or all the doctors they go to, but other than that, they're home alone all the time, and isolation is not is not great for people.

SPEAKER_08 2:08:53

Like it's well, and this is this is the huge portion of this book on this subject. That is people that are left unattended in the church, it should not be. It's it just cannot be. And if it is, we have to reevaluate why it is. Because then there's a number of different things it could be as we kind of move along these last two chapters. Your maybe your uh deacon model is not functioning right. Hey, it's time to reset it. Maybe you've got five deacons that are trying to meet the needs of 300 people. That ain't gonna work because everybody's gonna suffer, especially the deacon. Could you cough over there? Um, whatever it is, there has to be, and this is where the fresh ideas. Hey, like let's put out the net, or let's, you know, let's start picking people and working in this process. Let's give somebody a book and train them first before we put them into a position, or let's put out a questionnaire. Um, it's not too much to ask somebody to read a book on the subject they're going to be possibly called to. Whatever it is, there's tons of creativity in that.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:01

Can that piggyback off that as well? It's just as a Christian, can we not take the weight off of our deacons?

SPEAKER_08 2:10:07

Absolutely. This is where the diaconist servants is at the broad level for every one of us is hey, if we're doing the one another's, right, yeah, boy, the job of the deep. But this is the set self-serve mentality of the church today, not at all, but but somewhat, is that hey, these these 10 guys, they do everything in the church. I'm just here because that I need the air right, my I need a foil and lube on my car while I'm here, and I need a new pony. Yeah, I need to be free. Right. What are you gonna give me? And that's kind of the w framework we have to always get out of, yeah, is being those servants across the board. It will help overall everything.

SPEAKER_05 2:10:45

Yeah, yeah. And the one that I I I really enjoyed the most was the Deacon Earl. And it kind of leads into what you said earlier about, you know, it's an old dude, but he had he seemed to be younger in spirit. Like, you know, he was willing to change, he was willing to adapt, and he was that buffer. But it wasn't just that he like, you know, faced off the problem, he also communicated with the pastor. And so that he was, you know, he listened to what they said, he stood his ground, he spoke to the pastor, he's like, I support you. And it it he led into the thing that was I thought was really important for us to for me to to look at is the goal isn't how can we weigh in on all the decisions, but how can we make our elders' ministry easier? And it was like, you know, you you're you're having to be creative, you have to be a problem solver, but you have to be able to communicate with, you know, hey, I I see this problem arising, you know, I'll recognize it before the You know, I can see the storm coming and and he communicates the problem thinks of solutions like he seemed like the one that you know I I would want to be like, the one that I I would want to identify as. Like I don't I'm not that guy. I'm not that guy yet. But that's the one that I was like, man, I really that was really good.

SPEAKER_08 2:12:23

Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:25

Great. Um but then like at the very just to because I know this is like we're going a long time, but uh in this chapter is where that guy uh they're not gonna let him be the deacon because you know his wife it says that his wife was married before. Yeah, that his wife was previously divorced. Because I even underlined it because I was like, man, you know, that's kind of splitting hairs, like he's he's still the husband of one woman, but now you're like looking at her her past, does that bring that into that? So I I appreciate that, you know, we look at the situation on a s one-on-one basis. So I I I appreciate that. But like I'm just curious, like, you know, is that a re like is there is that a rule for a reason that is not just across that's across all of time? That it's not just you know, now because like you know, you you said like the world the is beating at the door of the church. Like, you know, are we are we adjusting what we think or what it what it says because we want to accommodate more people and and do those sorts of things? Like, and that's just my question. I like that's a that's a I think we brought that up.

SPEAKER_08 2:13:57

We've lowered the standard completely. But caveat something like the issue of wives is an interpretive challenge in 1 Timothy 3 and the qualifications. Right? There's a lot of discussion that needs to be had on what does that actually mean? And um and so as we talked about that extensively already, what does that actually mean? Does that disqualify a person? Are we talking about the moral character of the wife also? Is the wife part of the ministry partner as a deacon? And so those are a lot of things that need to be established in that conversation before making an ultimate decision. What did the early church say about that passage? Right? No, gathering all the details that we possibly can to make a coherent, wise decision. But yes, to answer your we the numbers game today is kind of where we're at. Not everybody, I don't, but the numbers game is hey, we'll lower the standard, we want more people in, and then what happens, more people suffer because the standard's so lower. Holiness is still a standard, brother, for each one of us, right? All right, double-tongued is still a standard, right? All these things are still standards that we need to hold to and gently move through that in wisdom on how we can get people into the positions they're called to. Not they necessarily want to, but that there's a calling there and it's visible. We are only, let's say, if I was leadership of the church, I am only ratifying ordaining somebody or moving somebody into a position. I'm ratifying what I already see God doing in that individual. And on earth, as the authority of the church, I'm saying, Amen. We are behind you, brother, in your calling. And we affirm that. So I've seen I've seen many divorced guys get remarried. It wasn't their fault necessarily, but remarried, healthy, serving the Lord, and it's glorious.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:52

So I think it's good to point out too with this was that Tim Tim Ellis, right? And uh he he basically was like, Well, I don't care. I don't give her a title. Yeah, I'm doing it anyway, whether you like it or not. He's like, Don't give me a title, doesn't matter to me. And I think that's a great thing to point out in there that he did that. So then it took him a little while, took the church a little while, but eventually the church come too and then give him the title, right? And he ends up passing away a couple two years later or something like that after he got the title.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:23

But like he had the attitude of the person that you want. Yes. He had the best attitude. He was like, I don't need the title. And that's where I was like, oh man, that guy's right. You don't need someone to say, hey, hey, Deacon, and pat you on the back. Like, you know, you get a little bit of extra respect for that.

SPEAKER_07 2:16:42

But I'd argue those are probably the better choices for being well.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:48

He left a legacy because of that. You know, at the end of that story, the Tim Ellis principle serve the Lord in whatever you do, regardless of whether anyone recognizes you, or put it another way, live like Tim, the man who deaconed long before his church gave him the title.

SPEAKER_07 2:17:05

You gotta hit it. Yep. That was I gotta give. I got a 10 o'clock covenant that is.

SPEAKER_08 2:17:14

Well, brother, you want to take us land that plane?

SPEAKER_00 2:17:16

What do you got first? Well, I wanted to comment on it. Talking about well, talking about the legacy. Um, been a deacon for five years, and it's countless people have said to me, people are watching you, and it's human nature. He's a deacon. How's he handling this? And I hear that a lot. And I feel like I want to lead by example. Well, you almost did it.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:44

Kennedy would.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:45

I want to lead by example, but I don't want the eyes to be on me. I want you to look through me and see God. And that's people are good to watch. It's human nature. And if we can lead by example and be a light in an otherwise darkened world, then that's what we need to be. As far as recognition goes. Amen. Beautiful heart. And Paul I've got Paul got your attention. We're talking about the wives, the the partners or whatever. An amazing wife, like I've got, and just to add bonus to be in a decal. Because she has grown into the part, she's supportive of the role.

SPEAKER_08 2:18:27

See, all those things need to be weighed. Yeah. You know, if you went to the wife, they're like, I don't really get it. I don't really want him to do it, but if he wants to, like, yeah, you don't have the support of the wife. Like, those are things that need to be talked about. Why? I want to ask you a question at the end, so don't let me forget. Uh, and I'll give it to you right now, so you can think about it while we land this last chapter. But as a deacon, how did this book affect you and what did you learn from this book that you previously didn't know or that you valued? Okay, brother, take us home.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:00

Um, yeah, I want to say that I did enjoy the book.

SPEAKER_07 2:19:03

Um, and I'm very much, I feel like I'm somewhat similar to Ryan's situation, you know, when describing his experiences with deacons and churches. Uh, you know, previously, you know, growing up, the deacon was just just the dude that collected the offering plate. Or uh maybe he drove the church bus. So you know, he didn't really know what their role was supposed to be. They were just there doing what they do and uh and didn't really know what that meant. Uh, this definitely uh illuminates that uh a tremendous amount. Uh and and I think what uh what every you know everything we talked about, I think can all be summed up in you know, trying to be like Christ. Um, you know, for even the Son of Man came not to be served and to give his life as a ransom for many. Uh but to serve, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many, you know, in Mark there. Um setting the standard, you know, out the gate as a servant of his people. Uh that's that's what you want to look to. Uh and then on 123, you got a Tim Keller says, uh, you know, first of all, Jesus washed the feet. Despite his intending impending death, Jesus was to have the wrath of God pour it on him. He was feeling tremendous weight. Um that even at the supper, when we are hurting with a load of care on our bags, we look around and notice, we do we look around and notice that people's feet need to be washed. Or we so, you know, uh intensive and uh introspective that we're we're just looking at ourselves and looking at our own problems and we're not seeing um you know uh everybody else's needs.

SPEAKER_08 2:20:55

Um that that mindset that Christ had uh as as the servant of his people was which means you have to get to know people exactly to to fulfill this position and not just this position, but in general, right? As all of us are diakonists, right? All of us are servants. Yeah, so we have to get out of it, we have to push ourselves a little bit to get out of that. Okay, well, I'm kind of introspective or whatever it may be, and to get out there to stretch myself is I've got to get involved with at least some people somehow, so I can know what their needs are. And that's it's an important point you brought up.

SPEAKER_07 2:21:35

And then um over in where you go. I lost it, but I think it's John, you know, where he says greater love had no man, you know, can uh lay down his line for a friend. I think uh the role of deacons on deaconing as Christians with you know without the title or with the title, either way. I think it's very much just about love. Um love your fellow man, love your church, love your one spouse. Wow. And I I think if you uh you try to check that box, I think you're gonna be doing pretty good at deaconing.

SPEAKER_08 2:22:16

Amen. Great stuff, great stuff. Thank you for sharing in that. Those are great points. Uh a few just ending thoughts real quickly in about 30 seconds. Can you give us a little bit of perspective, age, character, insight into the deacons that you're getting ready to appoint?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:37

So our church is going through the process of we we have one deacon that was there previously. We're gonna uh orname two more. Uh they're in their 30s, um young young families, but they're all they're already doing the role. That's that's the main thing. And uh going through the process, uh the way we handled it with them is we actually went through this book uh together, me with them, just one on two in this situation, um, and we we walked through all of these things. And uh while we didn't have a questionnaire, I do like that, but I used the this questionnaire basically in those walking through the books, and and we asked those questions, you know, or I shouldn't say we, I asked those questions. Uh are you loving your wife faithfully? Are you yeah, and they had to look me in the eye and answer. Now they could be lying to me, I don't think they are, you know, uh, because there've been other interest ways of watching them and everything, but they're but they're already faithfully serving. And and there are people in the congregation that said, Why aren't these guys deacons? You know, and and they're asking, so the congregation's already, you know. That's what you want. That's what I want, right? And so uh, but pray for pray for them. Their names are uh Aaron and Lucas and uh uh April 19th is the day they're gonna ordain them. I'm trying to make sure I got the date right. Um, but yeah, and it's it's gonna be wonderful because I've they already see the tasks, and I don't have to tell them. You know, I they're doing the deacon roll already, like I said, and so it's it's a wonderful thing. And uh uh but the the raising the bar is important because a couple of people have asked me, it's like, why are you investing so much? I said I'd rather invest in the front than find out later. I'd rather take the time to invest in the front.

SPEAKER_08 2:24:36

So do you think a process is very important in this?

SPEAKER_02 2:24:40

Yeah, I but now I think it can vary from context to context, church to church. Uh because um some churches uh can use a questionnaire like the one that's in the appendix of this book, and I think that's wonderful. Other churches could uh have classes that are set up for people to go through, uh much like a membership class. And I'm a proponent of those too, uh, to where you're getting to know the people that that are serving. And so whatever the process is, as long as it biblically and faithfully vets the candidates and and draws out the things that we talked about, I think is is wonderful because again, it it helps see their heart, plus it pumps the brakes a little bit, slows down the pro you know the whole thing, and is like you know, and I and I will say I did question their wives too in in this whole process of um is the faithful death point blank. When's the last time you looked at pornography? Not if you've looked at pornography, but when's the last time you've looked at pornography? Do you have a problem with that? Do we need to you know address that? How do how we talk about that? Do you see needs? Do you understand that you're not a yes man for me? That's the other caveat that I have is I don't want yes men. I want people who see needs fulfill it, and and if you're always going to come to me to ask what you should do, I'm sorry, go and clog the toilet. That's what you should do. You know, going back to that other example. It's like I will if we go through this process up front and the church sees it, the elders see it, and and then fulfill the ministry. What you pick is what will be done, right? And it's and so that's how you lead is you're serving in that capacity.

SPEAKER_08 2:26:39

And he and he says here members are called to emulate deacons. So they're never told to obey them, but emulate them. I think that's a huge model of service.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:50

Right. And in the conclusion on on page one um thirty-two, in the conclusion, um the top, the top phrase faithful deacons should be able to see their fingerprints on every sermon that is preached. Because your pastor wouldn't be able to do that, or not nearly as effectively as they do if you're not doing the deaconol. Right? So if you're not working in the parking lot meeting the needs of the the shut-ins and elderly, if you're not yeah, because then the uh our elders seeing the need would have to do that role, and they wouldn't be able to proclaim God's word the way. It should be final thoughts?

SPEAKER_08 2:27:40

Comments? Well, yeah. Thank you. See, that's why I asked that how did this book affect you? What did you learn? What can you take away from this?

SPEAKER_00 2:27:51

A lot of it just verified things that I already knew or had already read about. Um one thing is dig deeper. Dig deeper, be be more diligent in all of these aspects that we've covered. Um or in this book. Anything I can do to understand better what God wants me to do. Praise the Lord, man. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_08 2:28:19

Anybody? My soul is out of five. I appreciate every one of you guys and pray that at the very base level, not that's never a base level, but at the very base level according to this book, we are all fulfilling a role for the glory of God to serve one another and to serve him and to serve our local body and to serve our families and to serve our children and to serve everybody else as the Son of Man came, right? Not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. So pray that you are edified when you have time before after you go home and sleep. Shoot, shoot us a next date that works. Okay. We've got a guy that we're gonna be bringing in, so I think it would be very good discussion also, and hopefully you can make it for the book on elders.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:08

You think I'm opinionated on deacons? Just wait.

SPEAKER_08 2:29:12

That's what we want, man. It's coming, it's coming.

SPEAKER_07 2:29:14

That's the brown one, correct?

SPEAKER_08 2:29:16

That's the brown one. Gotcha. And I'll send we'll send in a link uh so we can get the Ladd Foundation link on that. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:25

Before we finish, one thing I wanted to. We're talking about the older deacons. I am very big on bringing in younger deacons. Amen. Um I spoke to Logan's former pastor six months ago asking just looking down the road, not today, but looking down the road, Garrett Greens, those type of people, I think we need younger deacons that can speak eye to eye, brain to brain, with the younger crowd. 100%. Our core group of our church has dropped probably 25 years since I've been attending there. And I think we need to focus on the younger guys.

SPEAKER_08 2:30:03

And that is the strategy of you know, the the the eldership to say this is what we believe needs to be happening. Let's let's implement this and so that we can see generational blessing. Right? And and be willing to let go and grab hold of something new. Great insight. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 2:30:25

All right. Before we close, I'd like to be selfish and ask that everybody be in prayer for us this week. We're in We've been in San Diego, we've been in D.C., we've been in Cincinnati, now we're going back to D.C. this week to basically do a protest. We've learned that the FDA has been withholding treatments for no reason at all. Well, the reasons were cracked sidewalk outside the facility they're making the drug in. There was a tarp outside on something that wasn't supposed to be there, and there was a post-it note on a computer that wasn't supposed to be a post-it note. And that's the reasons they have denied the drug trials for these kids. Uh not my kids, but further down the road to um further the science for all kids dealing with APS. So uh this is going to come out after it's a secret right now, but we're going to hold there's about 200 of us going to DC. We've got a hearse, we've got a casket, we're going to hold a funeral in front of the FDA, right in front of their circle drive as you drive up to the FDA's building to prove a point that you are killing our kids. Um and so as we travel, as we go through the hardship of this, uh just be in prayer for everybody that's going, um, us included, because it's obviously we're fighting the federal government and we need all prayer we can get, but we need God's miracle power 100% to be able to fight this battle with his army, not with not with ours. So um just all the help and assistance we can get would be would be great. Let's let us pray for you before we depart.

SPEAKER_08 2:32:11

Amen. Father God, we come to you and lift up our brother, all these families, their children, their hurts, their pains, their disillusionment, their suffering, the weight uh on their heart regarding these decisions that are made at high levels that just maybe lack the understanding of how this is going to impact the children. God, we pray that you would make a way. We pray, God, you would open the right ears and the right hearts of the people who will hear how to fix this. We pray, oh God, that you would move, you would give the desires of these parents' hearts of a full green light, that you would orchestrate funds and approvals and you would reverse this decision that has come down that is gonna affect so many. We pray, oh God, it would not be done by human coercion necessarily, but through prayer, through example, uh, through godly demonstration of how this is gonna affect everybody. We pray, oh God, that you would open a way. There seems to be no way. You're the God who opens the way when there is no way. You've opened the womb, you've parted the Red Sea, and you are faithful to open the way. Please, oh God, we are asking you to get these children help from the top levels of our government and open their hearts to please get these children what they need in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. What are you making? I know it's way to end. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:33:58

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