blessings in the name of Jesus, God bless you wherever you are today. They got to strengthen you. We have all the bells and the whistles outside the builders are still with us. But we are getting very, very close. So this is very raw, this is live. This is an has no editing whatsoever. But this is just straight out straight out of the the room of truth straight out across the mics. We've got Steve with us today. Hi, Steve is good to see everyone. Well, they're all good. We trust that you are well to my friend. And as we just gather around the scriptures, we welcome you to these podcasts, you can find us on many different platforms. And Steve has brought a good title today. And it's justification something that is needed. It brings us up sharp, it speaks very clearly to us. And the power of justification. So wherever you are, listen to this, share this out. And thank you so much for the 1000s of downloads that we are getting from Spotify Buzzsprout I Heart Radio, Alexa, and also Amazon music and Apple as well. So we thank you so much for the many platforms that this has been pressed out on. And as I said, please share all this stuff out comments. Come straight back to us, Steve, take us right in let's go my brother.
Steve:Okay, justification. It's a subject that I think he's really preached on Leanna is an actual very true if I drag my memory. If I think about it, I I can't actually remember anybody under whom I sat preaching, justification. It's a vital importance. Yes. And some of the stuff that whenever we do these things, it's often not enough preparation is not so much what you put in, it's what you leave out, you end up leaving out an enormous amount, because you've got to, you've got to cut it down to a certain period of time. And there are certain things that we were not going to be able to touch upon today. For instance, there's a link between justification and sanctification. But they are totally different. Yeah, but they are linked. They are linked. We won't be looking at that today. And also how justification is linked to the purging of our guilty conscience all. This is very much to do with the Lamb that was slain, if you remember, Paul says that. blood of bulls and goats, it can't urge the cars. So the high priest going every Yeah, yeah. The point is that the blood of Christ, one of the amazing aspects is that it purges our conscience. And this is linked in with justification, also the other areas, but again, it's something that we can't really touch upon today. So I'm going to read from Romans 321 26. I'll pick up some other scriptures later. But if we start the Romans 321 26, I'm reading out the King James
Reverend Ben Cooper:estate before we push off scripture. You said very interesting point that, and I would agree with you that when was the last time we heard a sermon on justification and between you and me that that is almost non existent. And even as someone that delivers the word which I'm, I'm afraid that I've never really det, stepped into to a certain degree. Why do you think that these big hitters haven't been preached? Is it is it because they're subjects that are so big, so vast, and they take us to God? Where certain subjects are preached on that you can divert the preaching away from God, hey,
Steve:I've got an opinion for what it's worth. When we started looking at the area of redemption, yeah, going into this and what we'll be looking at here is sanctification, so forth, other things like Ron, these are all known as the doctrines of grace. Yeah. And the doctrines of grace. Were basically a formulation of scriptural truths, which were gathered together by the reformers. And they began to see things in a very forensic way, if you put it that way, you do. A very
Reverend Ben Cooper:detailed Yeah. picking apart Yeah, I
Steve:mean, this I think it was to have a cook I can't remember exactly how to cook. But it says there that the just shall live by his face. Yes. Now I think that was the one that was the quote which arrested Lusa. Okay, Luther have spent years trying to make himself righteous. But it was only when he read this, that suddenly this it came to, or he began to understand that I can only be made righteous by my faith in Christ, and then it goes to Romans. Romans is the go to place for any grounded theology. And every pastor I've ever sat under, except you has maintained that a person can lose their faith. Yeah. So I, I have sat under every single pastor I've ever sat boundaries around what will be described as an Armenian pastor. One of the reasons Armenian pastors tend to steer clear of doctrines of grace is because whether they like it or not, it's going to bring them back to an area of Reformed theology, which some of them don't want to go into. Right? It starts challenging some of the way they think now this isn't all Armenian theologians, but there are several of them. And it's easier to speak in a general sense about salvation. It's easier to speak in a general sense about trusting in Christ, for your salvation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's fine, a wider blanket a bigger brushstroke over the lot without actually acknowledging rely on explaining the real fundamental, biblical points. Once
Steve:you start opening, once you start looking at this, yes. You come to an understanding the seriously if you believe that stuff. We have to exercise faith to believe Yeah, right. Yeah. God doesn't believe for us. No, we have to exercise faith. The why a Calvinist would say, is the this face which is, as it said, in the word faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So this faith is given in the first instance. Prior to regeneration. And that's, that's very key prior to regeneration. And then under the grace and the unction of the Holy Spirit. This faith is vitalized and is used by the regenerate man to belong Okay, lost. Yep. The Armenian will say no. Fight comes before regeneration. You have this aspect of face, you have to repent. It's in the believing in the repenting that you are born again. Yeah. But the classic look at it from the from the person that believes that everything is of Christ alone. And I think we touched on this with the area of redemption. Is that a man who is unregenerate? It cannot believe? Yes, I get that possible. Okay. If you say that, then you have to, you're ending up the old heresy of Pelagianism. But even the classic Armenians believe that God has to do something. And they call this prevenient grace. And this is what ties me with theologians is with the Calvinists, they have this irresistible grace. Yeah. And with the Armenians they have this prevenient grace, and part of this prevenient grace, what it does, is it works upon a man and partially regenerates, okay. And in that partial regeneration, gives him the ability gives him fight. And at that point, he has the opportunity to use it go to either accept Christ, or reject Christ, accept or reject. Yes. And so this is where we come down to this aspect of using free will wow. But for the free will to be energized. Give Yeah, there has to be some sort of regeneration. So there's this partial regeneration. Yeah. Now, I don't find anything in Word that talks about preventing Grace, irresistible grace for partial renounce. Now I can find nothing in it. And so for me the way I look at things I differ slightly from the Calvinist viewpoint. I differ greatly from the Armenian viewpoint. I'm not going to go into it now, because it just adds problems. I tend towards more towards the the Calvinist because the Calvinists are the monetarists like the same as I am, who believe in salvation is an act only of God, I can only be completely out of God. And that he gives me the face after he is regenerate after regenerate
Reverend Ben Cooper:him and I'm
Steve:using that face. Yes. Out of that new generation. And I publish that and repair. He says is that basically when the Calvinist you've got regeneration, yep. Belief, repentance being born guy. Right. But that sorry. Regeneration, belief, repentance, and the fulfillment of knowing salvation. Right? When regeneration starts, you don't know we don't know that you're saved. After only after this with the Armenian you come from the other way around, you start with face, which again, you have to have this partial regeneration. you repent, you believe you are born again? And then you move into that new life? Wow. So these, you come from these two different FSBO? Yeah, yeah. So if you're going to start looking at the area of justification and all these areas, you unless you start dancing, these dances with turns like provine and gross and so forth. You have to understand you you come to an understanding that these all these things are actions of God outside our ability.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So when you study justification, these two different areas that you just told us about, they bring conflict to their teaching. So that's why there's a strong possibility that not many enter into real deep doctrine on justification, because it will bring you to one place in one place only.
Steve:As far as I'm concerned. It does. Yeah. It's one. There's a guy called Roger Olson, who is an old name in America, college anyway. He says that it's up to the Armenian to restore gods to restore the honor of God, which has been besmirch stolen, denigrated by the Calvinist, right, primarily because he says that the Armenian must restore this honor the god loves everybody and wants everybody saved. And the Calvinist comes along and looks at it in a different way. See, the thing is, with the the Armenian teaching, is that this is the other problem, you different Armenians will have different understandings. Yeah. But one of the other things that they say is that under the preaching of the word, this partial regeneration occurs within everybody that is within hearing. Yep. And at that point, they have this moment of choice. There are others that believe that there is a general suspension, goodness of a part of the Adamic fall, so that all men everywhere are able at some point to chose to choose Christ. So this year, we start getting some very, very difficult to really take, doesn't it? So we're getting some very difficult areas. Now. It's fairly easy for me because I'm a monologist. And I believe in the single act of Salvation. Yes, that's it's all of God. And none of Murray's all of God have gotten a monetarist. Why end up agreeing with a lot of what the Calvinist preaches, yes, what the reformed position is, but there's a lot that they say that I don't agree with. The one thing I found over the years, and this has a say 40 years of sitting under Armenian preachers, is that in all honesty, I found Arminianism. Not helpful is the easiest way I can say it, because under the men I've set, they keep pushing The responsibility of that to me to the center or now you are now responsible, you've got to do this. And you've got to do that. Whereas if we look at it is by grace.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So yeah, that that you've mentioned that word grace straightaway, it is by grace, you have been saved. Yes. Not by work, not by man's press. I just cannot get my mind to understand that this God of Everything would leave it up to me. To save me,
Steve:we see this is where it comes down to this aspect of, excuse me, let's just take this top off. We have some very, very difficult scripts. There is no two ways about it. There are some very difficult scriptures, we have the same apostle who writes Jesus saying to the Pharisees, you do not believe because you're not my sheep. The same apostle writes, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. So we have almost we have
Reverend Ben Cooper:this two headed companies coming together from the same man. Yeah.
Steve:And these things are very, very difficult. Now that we, as human beings, like to have all our Mysteries answered, Yes. All right. And it's right that we dig into the Scriptures to find out to understand. But there comes a point where we there are certain things that we cannot answer. We cannot answer seriously and truthfully, why God bothered in the first place? Why Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:why? Right. We are told that was the purpose did it for His glory. Yeah, it did it for His glory. So it's always as the scripture says for him about him, nobody else.
Steve:No, no, no, he started it. Finish it. Yeah, it started it. No, it was all around. So excuse me got it, that
Reverend Ben Cooper:you are right. That's a mystery, isn't it? And some things need to be left as a mystery.
Steve:I mean, God, God didn't need to create us now. He doesn't need to be glorified. Okay, not at all. It's not sitting up there. It's gonna be glorified. Terribly. Is it is not insecure. He is, you know, he's name I Am that I Am, is that it is within himself. He is self sufficient. He doesn't need me doesn't need anybody else. So this whole area of why did He create in the first place? Because he chose to? And that was it, His will and His pleasure and his purpose? Yes, that's the end of a subject that some people that isn't enough they want to go, they want to go when you can't go deep? Because that's as far as the scriptures go. Yeah. And so you can try to unpack these things. The cross itself is a whole a tremendous mystery.
Reverend Ben Cooper:An absolute mystery to me. Yeah.
Steve:I mean, we can explain the theology of it, we can understand certain things. But even in now, even in that, what happened to Jesus on the cross, we will never fully comprehend. We don't know what he went through in the fullness.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we also have that cross we have the physical pain and let alone trying to think about the spiritual. Well, area. What was
Steve:yeah, one of the problems about it is that people tend to look at their watch Mel Gibson films and stuff like that. And they will see this, this actor up on the screen, and he has been beaten and smashed and all the rest of it. And Christ was I'm not, like deny. But he's the suffering that was greater for him, was what he went through. In his inner man,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the inner world. That's right, very, very poor. Is the is the easy way to understand this.
Steve:Steve, he went to the cross. And He tasted he made for us when he didn't have to. But more than that, he tasted the separation of men from God. Yeah. Now, as God he was never separated. But as men he was, again, this is a mystery in one moment, he is not separate from God as you can't render God render
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Godhead, but he was separated as man completely.
Steve:And so, again, mysteries we, you know, we can explain certain things to a certain degree, gone. But there are mysteries that we cannot.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Beyond the mystery of the crust, the mystery of the gospel of salvation.
Steve:I mean, seriously, the mystery of people being born again. You know, Nicodemus goes to Jesus and says, you know, we know you are from God. And Jesus doesn't actually answer the he says, he starts going into how, you know one must be born again. And nicotine is much lower. Absolutely hope. What So I've got to get back into my mother's womb and be reborn. What? How does that
Reverend Ben Cooper:so Jesus, obviously speaking to Nicodemus, as we know, because the Scriptures tell us but Nick Davis is an educated man and he must. He is called the teacher of teaching teach revision, so he must have felt what you came on about. So it for him off his rocker straightaway, yes. Cuz he didn't answer his question. Nope. And he spoke in a language that must have felt
Steve:yes or no. Now he goes on to explain that. To enter the kingdom of God, to see the kingdom of God, you have to be born again. This again, we come back to this business about where regeneration starts and how and so forth. And my belief, as poor as it is, is to believe that God is in total control. And he is the one that causes the rebirth to have a man. Yeah, irregardless of the person themselves
Reverend Ben Cooper:irregardless of the character, the person
Steve:we all got rotten character. I
Reverend Ben Cooper:And I love the fact that it's not about me. No, but it is it is about but it's not but then people can say well, if you take that look, you got free will to do whatever you want. No, I haven't.
Steve:No, no, that's that's that's a that's a cop out. That's a lot of rubbish. I suppose that we'll touch on this in a moment. There has to be a change in nature 100% to be it if we say that we are generated yet as people when our mums, Boris Yes, okay. We are now regenerated or made new, when the Holy Spirit causes us to be born again. So now we have this situation of the new nature, dealing with the dead nature, the stinky deadness the old corruption of the flesh. Yes. And it says in the word that the spirit lust this after the flesh in the flesh. Yes, this spirit, basically what it means is, the war is a fight. There's a war going on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And but that's very helpful to know, isn't it that there is that war? And that will always be until God calls us home?
Steve:Yes, the problem that I found over the years in Romanian teachers, is their confusion, that they would link st salvation with sanctification. So it got to the point where in in Matthew 24, Jesus talks about he who perseveres to the end will be saved. So basically, what they ended up linking together is that you will only be saved if you persevere right to the very end, I'm done for whereas the, the aspect of perseverance, if we're looking around five, it tells us that God causes us to have these trials and tribulations so that the quality of perseverance is built within us. So we can persevere Consider it pure joy. Yeah. And so there's a sense whereby Jesus is saying, Well, you know, these people that persevere hood, well, they are my chosen they are my elect, they don't become elect because they persevered. They they persevered because Terry very late. Yes. And it's all the against the cart before the horse. Why do you know which which which which which? And this is always a sign and when Armenian teaching there is this idea, as you say, you've got a libertarian Yeah, view that I can do as I please. Strangely enough, I have a bishop using years ago. He really through to cut monks and preachers. They said, Well, somebody pulled him up about this. He said, It's all love God and do is your place. Wow. Wow. I've gotten those you please your callsign a symbol? Yeah. Okay. Should if you love God, you do what he pleases. Wow, do what you please. Because what you pleases? You want to please Him you want to
Reverend Ben Cooper:play? Yes. Very interesting, right.
Steve:So instead of saying, you know, I spent years sitting under these men, for a little bit like Luther, yeah, sometimes. And they are constantly pushing and I push the striving, Yes. And instead of being able to rest in salvation, so that sanctification can be worked out,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you become very edgy
Steve:constantly
Reverend Ben Cooper:am I am I
Steve:am I save me saved, and this confusion between salvation and sanctification. Well, you'll never know until you die where we end up. Basically it's what the Catholics believe is what the Orthodox Church believes. So they there's And again, I must stress that not all Armenians believe this. But I find it difficult because of the kind of men that I've found. And they've all preached an Armenian gospel in a different way. None of them fell to one party one thing, but in all of them, and I tried to honor every one I sat on that, of course, I could. No one ever told me how I could lose my salvation. And no one ever told me how that salvation could be secured within me. These things were never dealt with. There was no assurance. No, you were forever lost at sea bobbing around or hoping that one day you'll hit dry land.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's not a good way to live. No,
Steve:it was always it was during these times, I started reading different books and different things. And because I could find no peace, because
Reverend Ben Cooper:God led you God led you to a place where you are at peace.
Steve:Yeah, because I mean on this without going into the background, I came into the kingdom with a huge, everybody comes in with baggage. But the kind of baggage I came in with was was close with him. It really was yes. And it was based. Everything that I went through, was based on my rebellion against God as a young man. Yeah. And it was this direct rebellion. It wasn't just a not knowing rebellion. No, it was a knowing it was a knowing I basically how I just quickly explain what happened. My father died when I was five, my mom remarried, when I was six. I was taken off to live in a very dark place. By the age of seven, I started going to Sunday school, and I started going to church. And I began to, I believe that Christ was the Son of God, I just really believed it. I said, and I went through it, I was going through an enormous amount of misery during this particular time, for various reasons. And I was under a huge amount of darkness. And I kept listening to these preachers, you know, God can do anything. And say, can you bring the dead back? Will you bring the dead back? Will you bring the dead back and my dad have been doing that for years, by this time for years? The child doesn't understand and as no one ever
Reverend Ben Cooper:was quiet.
Steve:And so it got to that point where I it wasn't a rebellion in the sense I kicked over the traces. And that's your arm off? I'm not listening to you anymore. It was a sense of, of a dying now, if you will, of belief.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:But that the knowledge of
Reverend Ben Cooper:God had always been in my back of my mind. It's amazing, isn't it, how that sits there, I
Steve:went through
Reverend Ben Cooper:a purpose driven, I went through a very, very
Steve:dark time, extremely dark. And it carried on until my mum died. When I was about 30. And I sat in my living room, my wife had been so I want to go, I want to go back to church, you know what she'd always been believed, as I say, in my living in one day, and salt came to me, if I don't go back to church, because this is how it was the only like, hours before. If I don't go back to church, I'm never going to see my mom again. How now I have no concept of salvation in the fullness. You know, I'm still doing I'm still your own child and understandings. So I don't think I'm going to see my mom again anyway, because I don't think my mom saved. But that lost spark of conscience. If you drove me back that last many then I spent 40 years trying to unpack the rebellion. The darkness, the filth, the corruption, yes. Been the whole thing. Yes. Yes. And I was in desperate need to know that I was saved. But no one
Reverend Ben Cooper:was, I was, I want to say us under a very different teaching.
Steve:Yes, of course. It was. Yeah, I was just so it was basically, not only just believe, but you've got to believe in you've got to carry on and you've got soldier on you got to do this. You got and the whole thing became monstrous. I mean, it was fruitful in as much that i The time was used by God, taking me to various books, reading books on geology, various other things. And so there was an awful lot that I learned, but still under these men who were I mean, I used to, I used to go out and ask for prayer. You know, I need your help. And it was about as useful as a chocolate teapot, you know, God. And so there's been this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you're sitting over all this baggage. Yeah. There preaching that you could lose yourself. He as far as I was concerned, I was baggage. He's gone. He's no good I may aswell have walked out day.
Steve:Yeah, but I couldn't
Reverend Ben Cooper:you couldn't, god kept you
Steve:Well, what helped me was I'd walked away once before. Yeah. All right. Yes. And I didn't want to walk away. I couldn't walk.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You couldn't? No, that's right, God kept you
Steve:So whatever I was saying, as Desperate me, I got physically ill listen to some of these people. I mean, physically, ill. And I used to come out and all sorts of rashes. And it was
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can believe that because
Steve:the body was just reacting to us. And it the other problem about it, of course, is that when you start reading the scriptures, and you come to some understanding, then you have this problem that the devil pops. He says, Well, why do you think you know better than him? Yeah, look at that God has given him Look
Reverend Ben Cooper:at you. And look, look, look, look.
Steve:And what started for me, strangely enough, was, there are some things I held on to I always believed that God was sovereign. Beautiful, I always knew that he was suffering. He was going to create a universe. So that's it done. I didn't know about salvation. I didn't know anything about things like that. But I knew he was sovereign. And that, in many respects, kept me
Reverend Ben Cooper:going. That was the anchor that was kept
Steve:somebody preaching one time about you know, God needs a mouthpiece, probably Copeland or someone like that. Well, what's your pal? God needs a man yeah, come I've got can't do anything what I'm singing now. Sorry. Yeah. And it was these things that started to chip away. That clarifies Oh, yeah, that was within that needed to be taken away. And so whilst I'd read the commentaries, and I've read the CFC ology, and I've read the underwrite that, there comes a point when reading doesn't help, you have to come. And that's what I love about God. And you have to come to that knowledge of Him. The knowledge of Him, but it has to be this personal relationship.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you exhaust that you you exhaust knowledge. Yeah, there comes a point, there comes
Steve:a point. And you say, this is the other thing. During that period of time. I went to places like Luis Palau, and stuff like that, if you want to be so come forward. So I did put me in. I found I've done
Reverend Ben Cooper:it 10 times, but I've been saved. 10 times baptized five.
Steve:I felt no better. Exactly. Just keep going. You know, you still got the answer. You haven't got the answer. You've got to find the songs. And I can never I can never say I can't look back in my life and say that was the
Reverend Ben Cooper:point. No, that was the point. Same with me.
Steve:It was this constant work of a journey of dealing with me and grace and love. And there are still times when I run it literally run into a spiritual brick wall. Yep. And it's very painful. It's very costly. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:tiring, physically exhausting. Yeah.
Steve:Mentally, mentally. And so God then picks me up. And then we're off again. Yeah, I mean, I've said this before, there were times when God's given me strength to carry on when I didn't really want to carry on. I have no desire to carry on. So what's the purpose? And it wasn't so much it was I wasn't bothered. I just didn't have the energy. I couldn't see my way out. I couldn't see my way or This. This. I I felt often something like Joseph when he was shut down the old Dallas Dallas. There was no way I
Reverend Ben Cooper:know. Wow, I can't get out of this
Steve:book. God drop various people. I mean, they're all John Newton. Ah, I can't wait to meet John Newton. I tell you I can't wait to meet that man. And also Banyan
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay, Banyan
Steve:I can't wait to meet both of those. They their writings. Were so human so wonderful. Oh, him was another one John only. But sometimes even right reading this stuff was very painful because I couldn't Yeah, it wasn't. I was missing something.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're missing. So it made you hungry. desperate. Yeah, that's a better way desperation.
Steve:Yeah. And and so really and truthfully, a lot of what I've believed over the years I've had to not keep quiet about but have not been allowed to talk about I was a deacon in in one church and I used to preach there. And I was told you must not preach on theology. Like don't want you to go anywhere near the origin because I know what you believe. I don't want you to preach it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Making me smile
Steve:because the The pastor was a diamond all Armenian. And he was an IO G pastor,
Reverend Ben Cooper:are we we go? Yeah, we got a mixed bag of everything in this day
Steve:OG pastor. And, and I was told to let you preach. And that's what he wanted me to preach it is to say, Let your preach. You want me to preach it, but I don't you touch technology. That's my that's my place not yours. That's my opinion. Yeah, I must have made you came out with some stuff that used to make my eyes water with joy.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now I won't know.
Steve:And so this
Reverend Ben Cooper:so this subject we're on today justification Yeah. But this is all relevant because it's very, very relevant the journey that someone goes on, and some people keep away because you've just explained that really well. Don't go near theology, because when you go near that, and you study that to that depth, you come up with an answer that the human cannot really work for.
Steve:I mean, back in the 60s, it was actually preaching it don't teach theology because it's divisive. It's divided, it moves, they look back at the division between the Armenians and the Calvinists and what occurred, and at times, it was bloody, and they said, Don't teach theology. It's devolved. We look back there and see how divisive it is. You can't teach theology. Leave it alone. With you leave it alone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So without left with much, Yeah, seriously, seriously, if you don't reach the
Steve:end, or you end up with with a bunch of bonuses, sons of encouragement, encouraging, but they can only they don't know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:See, this is the other problem. You've said something and encourager, now. You can almost say, without going too far down that road, when you talk about encourages Barnabas is you look, you look at the motivational speakers and they are encouraging. Yes, it's all let me say like this hot out. Without theology, it has no base.
Steve:Because if you're not grounded in scriptures, no matter how much of a Barnabas you are, doesn't make
Reverend Ben Cooper:any, it doesn't make any difference.
Steve:I mean, during that period, lots of times during that period of time when I was preaching, I was I was going away, I was praying, I was seeking Well, what is it you want to bring? And he would give me understanding of what to bring. I still upset.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's what Scripture does. That but that sound doctrine is the last
Steve:time in the pulpit. I wish I was basically that's it he scrubbed. I don't mean he's not getting up there anymore. Don't give him don't ever, ever let him up again, as sad. And the problem is with all of this is that one of the reasons you need to teach these things is people do need challenging. Yeah, but they need to be challenged in the right way. Because in some respects, what you're dealing with every church deals with weight and tears. Everyone Yeah. The best a preacher can do is to teach sound. And those people within the congregation must respond one way or the other. If you're if your weight and you've got sound teaching, you're going to respond in one way. But if you're a tear, you're gonna respond in another. But it's essential that every preacher preaches to honor God not not to defend his honor, not to restore is not needed. It's not needed. No. And I was reminded of David when he was bringing the Ark of Covenant back. And the cart stumbled, oh, we stumbled and it came out. And I think boozer stuck his neck out. And he was, and he was shot down day. And David had to write up because he thought he was just trying to be helpful. The moral of the story is God doesn't need your help.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He doesn't need it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah.
Steve:You shouldn't attach that you're not a Levite. You're not allowed to do that. Don't touch pain, you've died because you Dishonored god, wow, God didn't need you to create that. You don't know what God was going to do at that time. He did not need you to grab that. And that's very what God tells you to do. Don't go beyond what is written.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's important for today, isn't it? Don't go beyond what is written. Don't add our takeaway. Don't try and interfere with what God is going to do because there are implications. Serious is so serious. implica Yes. God doesn't need my help.
Steve:I mean, in truth but,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but pros a dilemma anyway, when you say that God doesn't need my help. No. He doesn't need that. And that's true. But a lot of people go You can't say that.
Steve:doesn't mean he can't do it be choosy. It chooses people to become pastors teachers. Yes. Evangelist. Yeah, he gives those gifts he gives that gift is good. Given any enables the person Yes, so that that person can fulfill the function that God has commanded him to fulfill. Yeah. Now my wife for years has been telling me that I'm a teacher. And I've been selling her for years that I'm not. The reason I've never considered myself a teacher is because I've never gone into these kinds of subjects, which is what a teacher is supposed to do. But I find myself now in a position of teaching these things, and he scares the living daylights out of me. And the reason he does he's the I'm handling the word of God in a particular manner, that if I dishonor him, and I caused problems for someone, I began to understand why it was that so often Spurgeon had to be dragged to the pulpit. He was praying all the time praying, come on, you got to get no, no. I'm dealing with people's souls. I've got to make sure I are a god, I got to make sure I'm preaching the right word. Come on, get up there and waiting for it. Yeah. And I've got a little bit of an insight. And as I say, it scares the living daylights. And when you start dealing with these areas, I mean, before and it was just blown, give me a word. I've got a word. Okay. And it was, it was a functional word for, for the man that particular moment. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But I think, personally, I believe that you are a teacher. Personally, I do believe all the ground up until this lockdown moment was training ground and ground for you to experience what, but now you are in a new position. And you and I, and I am I am blessed by your teaching. There's no way to. I can't put it any other way. You have encouraged me and you have strengthened me and you've opened the Word of God up. So I would have to agree that you are a Bible teacher.
Steve:Yeah. And that frightens me as a
Reverend Ben Cooper:soul because I'm good scares us. And it scares the heck out of me.
Steve:Sitting at home today, before I came here in my heart.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Every time I get in a pulpit, every time I get in a pulpit, I feel sick. I think I can't do this. The amount of times I've walked up the road to church and said, Lord, I'm not doing it the day, I'm going home or going on but I keep walking. And I know the failing. But God has called Yeah, and your honor name.
Steve:So we're going to look at this justification by face and yes, one of the I want to pick it up in verse we've we've read scriptures practice, should read it again. But pick it up in verse 25, of Romans three says, God has set forth that's Jesus to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness, in remission of sins, that are passed through the forbearance of God, to declare I say, at this time, his righteousness, that he might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. This declaration is to declare us who live our faith in Christ, we are declared not guilty. Yes, right. We are not made not guilty. That's something that comes along later on. I'll touch on that. But during this period of time, we are declared not guilty. That's. And we find this reflection in Romans eight where it says, who can bring a charge against God's elect? Who can bring a charge? No one, no one? Because he is declared them, justify it, love it, they are righteous in my sight, because they have laid their face upon my son, that they might be saved by Him. Yes, right. They have trusted in him for their salvation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that happens. That faith, as you said earlier, comes after God. Give salvation. Yes.
Steve:So it so there's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:they're going through it all now? Yes. Yeah. Right.
Steve:So the point being is this face? Yes, I have been given a by God. And been given the ability to see and understand Christ is God and Lord, and I'm able to lay my face upon him. I am able to say Lord, save me, I need to be saved. Yes. And in that, God says, you're justified, miser, you're justified
Reverend Ben Cooper:a mystery.
Steve:Now, just as an aside on this, there's, there's there is a favorite way some people like to preach and it's believe that Jesus died for you on the cross. Now whilst this sounds very good, in actual fact, it's not helpful. Because in many respects, what you're saying is you've got to believe that you are of the elect to be saved. I know if you actually push That way, yeah, it becomes this. I've, I've got to believe it to start from the on the cross. Know what you've got to believe is that Jesus is the savior and you need him. That's it. That's it. That's it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I believe that he saved
Steve:Marshall lighter. Yes, it becomes personalized to what you need to know, is the Christ as died. And he is saved. And do you accept that? And will you lay yourself upon him in totality? Amen. All right. So that's it. Now, the other thing that we have to look at is, why do we need to be justified? You know, yeah, yeah. Surely it's just isn't it enough to believe that Jesus is Lord, that's done lady enough to know that I've trusted in him? Well out face has to be proven to be whether it's true or not. The way it's proven to us, is the way we see our lives changed. Yes. All right, yeah. We see the way we speak, the way we think, the way we act, we see those things that we chased after in the futility of our mind, we see these things die. This is part of the actual Of The Year of sanctification. And we see and understand that we have made that true confession of Christ, that our repentance is real, and that our belief concerning him is real, because we see the change within us. God doesn't wait for that change to occur before he declares us righteous. He declares us righteous, and we come to understand that we are.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's a walking journey for us. But it's already been
Steve:done. It's been done. Right. Yeah. By our belief in Christ, yes. And we are declared righteous, we are declared not guilty. This man has not broken the law. The reason being is because we believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross, he died. For me, he took my life. Now this is where it starts getting personal. Yep. All right. I understand Christ stood in my place. Yes, I understood that Jesus died for me that he took my sin, He took the punishment for my sin. But I didn't need to know that if I, at the beginning, I just needed to be saved. Once I'm saved, I can understand that he's done it for me. Yeah. That it is personal. Very, it's very personal.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And no one else on earth will ever understand the personal journey know of salvation, because Because everyone's different. Everybody's individual. Everyone's different. But the word is the same salvation.
Steve:Yeah. So I should, as I say it, it's it's strange enough. This is why justification and sanctification are linked. It's, as we are sanctified, we begin to understand our justification, we begin to see that we are declared righteous. And then we see our, again, is the only touch on it. But we see our conscience is not filled with guilt.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, it's there's no there's a relief. There's freedom.
Steve:Yeah, there's an expiation if you will, if that guilt has been taken away,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that can be difficult to grasp. Because you are, we are first as we are free, yes. And we have no power. It's all about him.
Steve:He says this is the this is why I say that when it comes down when you start talking about these things. Yeah. I cannot, in all honesty, say that this has anything to do with me. It can't be if I get my monkey fingers on it. I'm going to make a big breakfast.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because if we got our fingers on it, how can anyone save themselves?
Steve:We were the kind of sounds corny was saying you can't sanctify yourself. I mean, in the sense that I seek God for cleansing in the fact that I seek God for forgiveness in the fact that I seek God. I'm seeking Him to do the work. Yeah. Yeah, my prayers don't sanctify me. What I seek God for doesn't sink to find me. I can seek Him for all the holy things available, but that action doesn't sanctify me. I'm sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, the advocate. Yes, the Comforter. Yes. I will not leave you as orphans. I love that. I'm with you to the very end of this. And the
Steve:other thing about this is that one of the other reasons why we have to come to this understanding that we are declared righteous that to show that our confession is true is that it's very easy for people to say, Well, I believe in Jesus.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it is a very, very easy thing. But what, but what Jesus? What what are you believing?
Steve:And what do you believe in yet. And so this idea is that my trust in Him is complete, I know there is no good thing that dwells within this flesh, nothing. And whatever I have, has been given me by God, all good things come down from the Father of lights. And because I've seen the change in me, I know that God has declared me righteous, I'm not righteous enough, myself, I have had his righteousness in purity to me, the great exchange on the cross, He became sin for me, and I became the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, and no control
Reverend Ben Cooper:was given to, you know, now by Christ,
Steve:and one of the reasons why it's necessary to know this declaration, yet is that there comes a point and it's spoken of in Romans five, where it says, Through the one, many were made sinners, but through the one, many will be made righteous. And the point about righteousness is it's one's character. Now, Jesus, Adam, the character of Adam was a man who was able not to sin. Okay, yeah, it was given the garden. Alright. And he was created in such a way that he was able not to sing. Yes. Yeah, he didn't have to eat the fruit. He could have told he stopped doing it. Don't listen to that serpent. He was able not to sing, but he seemed so he died. He did not complete the work, the only the last Adam
Reverend Ben Cooper:dinner. Yeah.
Steve:And so what we are faced with in this is that, if my trust is in him, and I am declared righteous, I still have to deal with this character, flawed character that is associated with my flesh. So I can't be made righteous in this body because this body is degenerating, he hates affected by sin. But there comes a point at the resurrection, when I will be made righteous. And Paul sorry, John says in his letter, first letter, he says, Beloved, we do not know what we're showing it be, but we know this, when we see him, we shall be like Him. Jesus in His glorified condition, is not able to sin. When we are brought to that place, we become we become like Him by able not to sin. So we enter into a far superior place than the first Adam ever was in. Yes, he was able not to sing. We are being because we united with Christ. Yeah, this is very important issue united with Christ, where there comes a point where we will not be able to sin, because when we're transferring, we're glorified. And changed. Sim will have no effect on us the temptation? No, no, no, not none at all. Because the old man will be dead, and I will be in the fullness of the resurrection. Now, the thing about this is that when Christ died, and he rose guy, it showed that he was completely righteous, because he came back to life. Death couldn't hold him. Death can only hold a sin, a sinful man. Yep. But it couldn't hold him. So whilst he became sin for us, he was still righteous in and of himself. So he rose from the dead. And it says, in one of the quotes, which one is it? He says, trying to find it, Romans four and 25.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Romans 425 as we go.
Steve:I'll pick it up in 24. But for us also to whom it shall be imputed, that's his righteousness. If we believe on Him, that raised up Jesus, our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our fences, and was raised again for our justification, goodness, this justification which is being done declared, we now have been given the right not
Reverend Ben Cooper:allow ourselves love ourselves and given a right
Steve:to be called children of God. And we in the resurrection will know full righteousness, we will be made righteous. And we come to being. And this is all to do with the you the unity of that we are united in the death and the resurrection of Christ. Very, very important. Because all of it is by him, his watch all of him by him, we are united in his death. We are united in his life, yes. And we will be united in him in
Reverend Ben Cooper:the resurrection, three really important areas.
Steve:And it's this area of righteousness, I enter North myself, and not righteous. When I attain resurrection by the grace of God, I still won't be in and off my self righteous. But that righteousness of God in Christ Jesus will be such that I will be translated into a body, the same that he has. Good. Wow. So this righteousness is always his it's never mind, always his always sees. But there comes a point when I am changed, and that righteousness imbues every part of me, my body, my soul, and my spirit, the point of death, the point of resurrection,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the point of resurrection or the point of resurrection. Is this massive transformation. Yes, this glorification is glorification. So how come NACA man even have the audacity to think that he is in control of any area of all this stuff? Because the scriptures are glaring out. Yeah, that is all about God. For God. No, human hand has an involvement in any way, shape, or form, over salvation, justification, no transformation.
Steve:Is this is all of God. Already done. Yeah. And again, we come back to this. All right. As I said, if people want to hold on to their Armenia view that they've chosen, that's up to them on you over it. I know what I believe in. I know why I believe it. And it's taken me far too long to come to a place of peace over it, to start playing silly buggers with it now,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you said an interesting thing at coming to peace with it. And that's what we want to get over today. You have, we believe that through these teachings with Steve, that, that God is dealing with all this, this this area where the church hasn't really it hasn't spoken on the fundamental points. And now is the time. Now is the time again, you see that?
Steve:Just to reiterate what we said earlier that, that so often, when people are engaged in these sorts of things, it can become divisive. It can be you've got to believe the way I believe, when you haven't got believe the way I believe, I believe the way I believe because I found it, I found it, I found it to be true. Yeah. And it's true. Because I've set for years and people telling me a different way. And he's ever worked.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that was that was a long time. That is that's a lot. Yeah, we'll be there three years, three years. So that but that's training, that's insurance. That's that's going through the valley that that's pressing in that's that's that is brutal, but, but it was for a season and a reason. Yeah, yeah. And we can clearly see that now that in the last days in which we live. God is raising up teachers.
Steve:Yeah, and the thing is once you start the reason for this is that it's necessary is when you start looking at the depth of these things, when you start listening to these people from the New Apostolic reformation with their false prophecies and all thatyou just sit back and you think, you got a clue might you it's just one clue
Reverend Ben Cooper:is so far but it is it's that what they their engineers want to hear. They want to hear I am I am I am I am
Steve:this you sit there and you think seriously power could not give a topic toss what you what your prophesy because you're not gonna hear from God. It's not from the words not from God. And you know, seriously. Alright, you know, I'll claim my new car. I'll claim that God provides I mean, we were talking about earlier on in this country. We've just seen with this. There's a 50% hike in fuel bills coming up. I prayed about it. And the Lord said, don't worry about it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That simple. I will supply. So that scripture I know we ain't got the time But my God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in glory that covers what we're talking about, I will make sure your fuel bills are covered, I will help you not that I, my God will give me a new car. When I'm referring to it in the event, in a name and climate, that's that is a text that has been manipulated. For the preachers gain. For its pyramid, sell
Steve:a point where my old car is going to die death and I'm going to need a new one,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but God will supply supply I don't have
Steve:to worry about it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But you're not going to so hundreds of pounds into a man's ministry. And be told that you so into this, you partner with this because that's not scripture. Now cast your bread upon the waters and what its return. So that Yeah, Steve, this has been great. We have done just over the hour. Just over the hour, Steve has shared his heart, the Scripture, this is ordained. This has an anointing on it. I just thank God for Steve life and his journey that he's had. And wherever you are today, may God bless you and strengthen you. And just clearly just Just remember, you know, God loves us. And He saved us, Steve, any closing words? Okay. There we go. We'll catch you in a few weeks. Next week on talking about take care. Have a good day. And remember, it's all about him.