Good afternoon world. God bless you wherever you are today. Thank you so much for sharing all these podcasts around the world, literally 1000s of downloads through the power of podcasting. We are so blessed here in Elim church in Swanley, little old Swanley. You know, thank you so much. And we just want to say, We are really blessed. Thank you for the feedback. Thank you for everybody on I Heart Radio, and Apple Music, and Alexa, and all the stuff that's going on Buzzsprout, Spotify, we are so blessed. Thank you so much for the downloads. And we are really, really so over the moon. I don't know if that's the right word to say. But we're blessed. You know, we're right here. And this is just straight out of the barrel of truth. And thank you so much to everyone. You know, it's really important that we really must emphasize this, the power of podcasts and the power of the voice. Now we have my really good friend, Brian Brian Greenaway. And he's, he's a real man of God. And he's in the great Israeli Ministry. And he's right in front of me, we haven't been able to speak for a while because of all the razzmatazz that's been going on. We've done a few podcasts before the lockdown and all that jazz that has gone on. But now we're gonna start we're moving into the new studio, As you're all aware, as you see on the different platforms that we push things out on. We're getting ready to move. This is the last podcast we are recording in this little shed. And then we're in the real room. Brian, is so good. My friend.
Brian Greenaway:Ben is good to be with you. It really is.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's really great to have you back in this little studio as we just talked about Israel and what God is doing through the ministry. And Brian, can you introduce us who you are? What ministry is what it's called? And let's just see how we go.
Brian Greenaway:Okay. Yeah, it's good to be with a bit. It's great. So in case you don't have to hurt me, one is Brian Greenaway. I'm the director of a ministry but scald mas Israel and my main strength or stronghold. So the stronghold of Israel is the name of the ministry. And I am a Jewish believer in Jesus. Some people called Messianic Jews, that's fine as well. I'm also in the same as God minister in South London. So I carry the two hats in the sense that they blend together well, well, those two. And yeah, but the my main work is working with this ministry that's based in Israel has been in Israel now for 46 years. So it's been a wild time. It's a pioneer ministry, one of the pioneer ministries that saw Jewish people come to faith in modern Israel, for the first time the most like the early church was Jewish. And after post 48, there was only a few Jewish people who knew Jesus as their Savior, very small constituent of people that began to grow. So our ministry was one of the first congregations in modern Israel. And then from that the leaders of that ministry, Ari, and Shira sock around, realized the need to support believers, and to see other people come to faith as well. And so they founded the congregation and later on came Mars, which was wider than just a local congregation, which was aimed to support Jewish believers in Jesus in those early days.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But he's exploded out of that has, yes, exploded. So there's something there is something so powerful about this ministry that you're in and you're involved in, and God is blessing this ministry, and I just love the stuff that you post to me and the stuff that I see on social media, and what I hear and what I see. But Israel at this moment, how do they sit through the pandemic? What, what has been their journey? Because there has been so much conspiracy, so much, there is so much out there. What is the real root of what has gone on and what is going on?
Brian Greenaway:Well, all kinds of little bits in the last few years, there's been a lot of controversy, isn't there, this whole thing with the virus and an Israel, a bit like the UK has been at the forefront of getting people having the jab and the vaccine, etc. So other nations have looked at Israel, and some have commended them. Whereas some have said, Oh, and they got over the top, you know, and of course, their conspiracy theory. It's funny, isn't that word conspiracy theories, because sometimes, if people don't like what you're saying, they say, they shut you down. They show you that conspiracy theory, but actually, you know, we have to be careful because sometimes people have valid arguments and valid things to say, and we mustn't just shut them down by saying, well, that's weird. But nonetheless, there are some strange things out there. That's true. So Israel, like us have been hot on the jab on vaccinating people. And they've also introduced something called the Green passport, which some listeners may have heard of. Some people that mean Then against that, some people have said, we like it, because it protects us. When we're going to that discussion, you know, let's talk about Israel in particular. Yeah. And yeah, so at the moment, if you are in a congregation, there is a limit on 50 meeting, sometimes it's 100. And they do change it quite a bit. I mean, I'd like us in the UK, and we're going to be government's don't know what's happening next month. So they make these rules, and then they say, you won't be locked down at Christmas. And then you are and then you know, that's happened to all of us. It's occurring across the world. But the moment the rules are that you can't say gather more than 50 people together, and you have to be vaccinated, you're recovered or have some sort of stiff gut. So it's quite strong guidance on that. There are loopholes that sense, but there are ways that meeting outside you can meet with more people. So there are a lot of congregations because of the better weather generally. Yes, I've been able to meet outside.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Has there been a bit of rebellion out there? Have you heard of anyone really like rising up? Because you see, and you hear different things? How so? How are the tower churches coping? And has there been anyone that has gone? You know, what we're gonna do what we want to do? Or is everybody just been listening to what the President has been saying and trying to do? Is such a difficult bag, isn't it? Yes. So much.
Brian Greenaway:You get arranged things that you said there were some churches that over a year ago, were ringing their people and saying, unless you've had the jam, you are not welcome. Right. Okay. And so to their own people, to their own people to show about that, you know, because yeah, that's quite, that's not the gospel. It's got to come on. Well, you know, come and hear the gospel, but to ring people and say you're not working, but you don't get chapter I think it was a bit strong. And there are others who have ignored it. And so I think it's the same as a lot of countries. It's the same around the world protested. Yeah. Because we had an election in Israel during the whole situation, and then a party that was specifically focused on protests against the vaccine. Yeah. And we're denying the virus, you know, the can't deny there's been a viruses definitely something there isn't. Yeah, but how they've reacted to it. So there's been the extremes in both. And that has impacted unbelievers as well. There are some who have been a part of that protest. Yeah. And there are some who have just conformed completely to the to the rules. And I think that as individual believers, and as churches, it's not been easy as an attack that pastors know what you've done, though you've done this, you've done that. But you know, it's, if they were in that position, it's not easy. So difficult prayer, and they need support leaders need prayer, and they need most definitely difficult decisions.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's been really difficult, isn't it on wherever you are around the world. But Israel has survived. Yes, so many things. Can you give us a little bit of history, history, where how Israel, biblically, came around, because what we see happening in Israel is nothing really knows it. It's always been under threat. It's always been challenged. It's always been the center of attention, you know, where we sit now clearly through the media even going back through, but it was always the place. So how and what was the purpose? And why Israel?
Brian Greenaway:Yeah, well, it's funny, you know, just recently, a friend of mine who lives in Israel was having a, a conversation with another Jewish person. And he said, it's not fair. You know, he said, God's holding us hostage. Wow. It was just a funny thing to use. And it never seen that perspective. But what he was actually saying was God's made this promise, this covenant to us. And he said, despite what happens, Israel, you will always be a nation before me. You know, he said that right through from the times of Abraham, yeah, right through the prophets, and the Psalms, and particularly, we think of Jeremiah 31. Whereas the New Covenant, but within that says, There will always be a nation before me. So he had an interesting perspective, isn't it? Because God said, no matter what you do, no matter how faithful you might be, and he told them, you know, you're a nation of difficult people, and you're stiff neck difficult, but nonetheless chosen you. Is that amazing, God's love, you know, because when we think of God's love, sometimes we can reduce it to human love can't be Yes, fickle, fickle, it's based on affection, feelings. Think about, say, like, somebody falls in that mistake, John and Jane, they fought, John falls in love with Jane. And he says, Oh, I love your eyes, and I love your hair, and I just love you. I love your personality, etc. So he falls in love with Jane, and he means that he wants to spend the rest of his life with him. He doesn't say to her with Jane, you know, you're quite ugly, really. And you've got a bad personality. And I don't really like your teeth. But I love you anyway. I mean, this is odd, isn't it? Isn't it? But God being when God looks at us, he doesn't think Oh, isn't? Isn't Brian beautiful? Isn't he wonderful? Because we are sinners by nature. Yes. So how does that work with God's love? Because it's not that
Reverend Ben Cooper:side down, isn't it? It's not the same as the world. No, it's not so despite, despite that, spite
Brian Greenaway:what we've done wrong, I mean, to the General Manager, yes, despite what God preach, he loves us from who he is, unconditionally nature. Yes to love us. And so that's the same with Israel. Now why did he choose Israel? Because he says, I didn't choose you. Because you were the best nation, because you're the most powerful nation. In fact, he says, As I just said it that in a sense, they were the worst, the most rebellious see, and I was reading the book of Joshua this morning where Joshua says to the people, be faithful. And they said, we'll be faithful we'll be facing you won't be faithful. They said, We will be well, no, you won't. You know, it's funny that God knows that he that he's chosen these people who will be unfaithful, yet he set his love them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that is so powerful, isn't it for an individual to live with? We're looking at Israel as a nation. And as he speaks about that, it falls down to the human as well. Yeah, I do love you, God. Well, you know, I will follow your Lord. Well, you won't. So it's really interesting, despite the nation, despite the human despite any of this, whatever way we look at this, Israel and humanity, God loves us. Yeah. And it's not to do with feelings, as in human feelings. It's to do with a love that is almost undescribable to the human being.
Brian Greenaway:It's an elective, its elected and chosen,
Reverend Ben Cooper:chosen is completely different. So when you look at his realm, within Israel, you've got everything breaking out. And for someone that doesn't have a lot of knowledge of Israel, you look at Israel, you can quite easily think corps, but that's a really holy place. They've got some real it's really peaceful, but there's no fighting about there's no unusual. There's all things breaking. Oh,
Brian Greenaway:yeah. I mean, it's a nation that is in sin and rebellion against God. Of course, you know, in the goddess choices bomb, isn't it? 50% of people, Jewish people in Israel don't believe in God. 50% People think, oh, it's all holy and religious, isn't it? Yeah, there is a lot of religion in Israel, a lot of religion, including, you know, Christians who maybe don't know the Lord are very religious. And of course, there's contention between tension people call those Christians on the land and everything on the corridors believers. And it's, you know, it's, it's a very religious place and a number of place, religions about the Baha'i Faith have made their center. Yeah, Israel. So there's a mixture of people together, it's a melting pot of different religions, different faiths, and
Reverend Ben Cooper:there's a bag of everything breaking out in Israel isn't. You know, it's fascinating to me that you have this nation, you have this 5050 Cut, where some are really hungry for God, some are just not really bothered. So it but the automatic thinking in the process of a human being, maybe that that has no understanding of Israel is caught do me. That's that is a serious holy place. Yes, it is. But yes, it isn't, as well. But we see that all the way through the Bible, don't they? You see a rebellious or real rebellious lot of people you do. Yeah, absolutely. Beyond,
Brian Greenaway:which is what makes it America, doesn't it? Because how does God managed to carry these people? Yeah, 2000 years of history where they hadn't even had their own land, their own language around government structure, there are leader in the sense, how have they gone through? Miracle This is America, it's miraculous, that was preserved these people brought them back because he said he would.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that you've just said what I was gonna say. So what we're saying is this miracle is purely because it's a promise. Yes. And the promise has protection. And whatever God says He will deliver, no matter how the person rebels or acts, when God says He will do. So when we look at Abram in this, what is his part in all this?
Brian Greenaway:It was chosen, wasn't it? Yeah. You know, he lived. If you look at that summary or debacle, Joshua, it says, it talks at the summary and it says, you know, where it says there was Abraham's father, who worshiped other gods? He said, Then God, then God said, then I chose Abraham from that and called him called him across. That's
Reverend Ben Cooper:interesting. Isn't crossover. So it's crossed over. So Abraham crossed over from a father that was worshipping idols, satanic activity. Everything was going on. That's right. Yeah. And he chose him. But from that, from that father's line, God used, man. Yeah. The birthing point of
Brian Greenaway:just two, too old people
Reverend Ben Cooper:too old people. What is this all this about, Be careful listeners. So again, again, you look at Israel, you look at these these holy people you think, Wow, that is so perfect. But actually, the beginning came from someone that was worshipping
Brian Greenaway:Yeah. A foreign god. That's right. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, definitely.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So God will use God will do. God will make anything work according to His plan and purpose. So suddenly, Abram is here as wife necessary and then suddenly we got birth. You're gonna have a child? What Talking about basically ninja again. There was what you talking about God, I'm gonna have no way no way. So right from the very birth of this every situation is impossible it is definitely to the human eye. It didn't fit
Brian Greenaway:out of the chaos of Genesis 11 Yeah, what happened there and think God would want to give up. But he doesn't you know, sometimes? No, it was chapter divisions not in the original text of the Bible. Yeah, sometimes we can read. And then we start with Chapter 12, which is obviously something new. But actually you know, chapter 11 And it's just one book isn't it? Genesis? Yeah, from that chaos God says right okay, this is what I'm gonna do. Man as the power available all that stuff this I'm gonna do I'm going to choose these two people. Yeah. From within himself. He chooses them and he makes a great nation is gonna make you a great nation. Yeah, people are kings are gonna come from you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So this is all coming from Abraham's the kickoff point. So Abraham come from the head office, then his mom, but from that satanic place, and then idolatrous and everything is wrapped up in his dad. God birthed. And God brought into being to what we see today,
Brian Greenaway:Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, tribes, 12 tribes and modern Israel is ancient Israel, their descendants direct descendants.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we trace it all the way right the way back to Abraham and Sarah, or is it Sarah? How?
Brian Greenaway:It was Abraham and Sarah Sariah. Again, Abraham and Sarah. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we trace it all the way back? I'm smiling, because this is not normal. No, it's not. But God is not his word is a mystery, isn't it? Everything is a mystery. So this is why I love him, Brian here because I can pick his brains. And it just it just gives us a very interesting look on Christianity. Because churches and religion come try and make us look that we have to be absolutely perfect. But when you look at the birth of Israel, and you trace it right the way back. So coming from that point to where we are today, it hasn't been easy for Israel as it
Brian Greenaway:hasn't No, no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:from suffering from the birth. From the birth, then we have the 12 tribes. Then we
Brian Greenaway:have struggle, Jacob, Jacob, so giant struck juggling, and with the angel with God, really, in the opinion, he struggled there, the book Jabberwock. And yeah, it struck that Israel still struggling now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So from from the point of birth, it has been a struggle, it hasn't been an easy run for them. And amongst this what we call Israel today, there's this mixed bag of every religion. Yeah. And Messianic Jews. So tell me a little bit more about your, your background as in a Jewish Jewish believer, one, where and how. And what is that? Very, very easy, and very quickly, I
Brian Greenaway:grew up in to great parents, and I'm an HR, so wonderful parents, but with no faith at all. It's secular in that sense. My mother got involved, number of my family got involved in in spiritualism, and so did I, which did a lot damage to us very dangerous. But I always had a strong identity as being Jewish. So, you know, identity with the people of the land. And so I grew up with a Jewish identity, but very political. So he was I was a political Zionist. So I had a lot of
Reverend Ben Cooper:was that very popular, though? Being a political, Jewish person?
Brian Greenaway:Oh, yeah. That very driven? Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which can be racist, it can be anything, Aaron, and okay, wrong, you know, hating Palestinians. You know, God, that's certainly not God's purposes or plans. But there are a lot of political Zionist like that, and it should never enter into some some of the faith, you know, should never go down that road to hate other people. The other racist is absolutely wrong. And so yeah, as a political scientist, I grew up then I came to faith was a real mess, age 21 and got involved with church and sort of forgot about my Jewishness. And it was always there in the background, but I forgot. So I individually ended up pastoral ministry. I've been involved in pastoral leadership over 20 years now. But then, about 11 years ago, 12 years ago, maybe longer. Mas came to visit the church was pastoring you know that. And I thought that was interesting. But then I'll get that started me on a journey. So God, you know, I'll be always be at the church. I was at pastoring in Kent. And then that that intervention by the invitation of that ministry to our church made me think about my Jewishness, a couple of years after their first visit, things, you know, the pastor or work ended at that church. We weren't expecting that at all. God sort of rejected us from that. Yes, he did. We became involved in my office at the same time. And yeah, so I mean, the rest is history. And so I'm on a journey myself discovering what it means to be Jewish, and a follower of Jesus and it's been a 13 year journey so far.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Brian, it seems really complex. I tried to be great. So what? What is a Messianic Jew?
Brian Greenaway:Okay, right. So I miss any Jew and it's good to I'm glad you asked that question, Ben, because when I you listeners may have noticed that I said a Jewish believer in Jesus. Yes. And the reason I say that is because a Messianic Jew can mean different things to different people. So sometimes I've said that to people, and they've looked at me, I thought, you're hearing something different. What I'm saying, Yeah, because there are those who call themselves Miss onic, who don't believe in Jesus. You know, they say they're looking for the Messiah. So it's important to say that I'm a Jewish person who believes in Jesus, I believe exactly the same thing as Christians. And that's what
Reverend Ben Cooper:I picked up. You picked up a clear, you said, a clear statement. So there are Jews. So let me just try and work this out for myself. So there are Jews that don't believe in Christ.
Brian Greenaway:That's right. There are definitely a majority of those that have had a strong emphasis on looking for the Messiah. No, they're looking for the Messiah. So he hasn't come yet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when we talk about the Messiah, he hasn't come yet to that many, so too many of them. So how did that Brian, I'm gonna ask the question that we want to cut. And how did they get into this position? What what is this in this? I suppose it's just a mixed bag of so much stuff, of political involvement of interpretation. So for me to think Israel, holy, blessed, beautiful, but within that there are Messianic Jews. There are Jews in that, that don't believe in Jesus fellow Jews.
Brian Greenaway:Yeah. Messianic Jews in and definitely not definition. Jesus. Yeah. But there are that. Yeah. I mean, the thing is that, you know, God's purpose is quite amazing, isn't it? It's Joseph wilderness. Your job? His brothers meant it for bad. Yes, God meant it for good. Yeah. It doesn't mean they've got the audio that's gone wrong with Joseph. So we'll get out of that situation. God worked through that plan to save the people of the 12 tribes that are taken to Egypt. So and that's what's happening now, isn't it? Where is Yeah, and also, you know, Paul said, If Romans nine to 11, he talks about God's purposes, so Israel stumbled, they didn't completely fall away, they stumbled so that the gospel might go to the nations,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's like, as human beings and the stumbling,
Brian Greenaway:It was always good purposes. If you read further on into into Romans 11, and 1212 13, you see that God always meant to include donations in his salvation plan. He always did. He said, to Abraham, didn't he through you. You said, all the nations of the all the nations, that's a very clear statement, but Abraham would not have really known how that happened. But it happened because Israel rejected in general, the Jewish people, most of them rejected Jesus, not all of them, you know, the church was Jewish. Yeah. But they would because of that they stumbled as a nation and the gospel went, as we don't read the book of Acts, and the letters went to the world. So there was a purpose in all that they're non recognition of the Messiah meant that the gospel went to all nations. Why is it God has His purposes, but in the end, God said, you know, he's going to pour a spear on the Jewish people. And all Israel won't be saved Romans 1127
Reverend Ben Cooper:All Israel, Israel, a statement,
Brian Greenaway:you'll find lots of interpretations on that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And yeah, maybe that's for another podcast, because that could we could really go some distance on that country. So in this nation, you know, where people go with Israel, Israel, it has survived how many years but roughly modern Israel model 70 years now 70 years now. So
Brian Greenaway:that people have survived in scattered to the nations 1000s of years.
Reverend Ben Cooper:1000s of years, isn't it? So when we talk about 70 years, because people might think well, what was Brian mean? 70 years? How? What was that point? What was that? Why was what's the 70? What's the relevance of the year? So you you mentioned 70? But we know the people right, right back 1000s of years, so why don't any 70 years old? Well, you just presented that. But of course,
Brian Greenaway:there's always been a remnant of Jewish people in the back in 135. D. Yeah. The Romans got so fed up with the Jewish people that continual revolts at 70 when the temple was burnt down, and ad 135 was a big revolt called the boll Akbar rebellion, where there was a charismatic leader who rose up Bicocca and he threw the Roman roll off. He was very good. He was a politician, a military guy, historian. Wow. He was a messianic figure, if you like and many Jewish people said this is not a sign. It's a mineral. Yes, is a Messiah and popular and very prominent rabbi at the time said yes, this is the Messiah. That was a mistake. That was a mistake was a mistake, because he wasn't Messiah, of course. And eventually he died. And that firm in a spin it was yeah, it was a big rebellion. You know, they threw off Rome and Rome and eventually the Romans got organized and killed him, killed his leadership and they pulled it back. They'd had enough they said, we've had enough of these Jewish people. So they banish them from Israel. They weren't even allowed, in a sense. It's Judea, Judea, they were sent away Jerusalem. They banished them completely. There was always Jewish people without parts of them, but they said, we've had enough they plowed up the temple, they built the temple of Apollo. They renamed it Syria Palestina, which is where you get the name Palestine, Palestine and, and Jewish people were banned for many, many years. So they thought they could do away with them. But God did say that was going to happen if you rebelled against me. But the promise was still to return to the land. So, so from there 135 ad, Israel didn't have a sort of state in the sense, as we understand it, you know, with a king or a president until 1948. Now, there was always huge people in the land a small remnant, you know, in different areas. But in the 1870s people like Dr. Moody, some of your listeners will have heard, yeah, this Christians began to say, and JC Ryle, I don't even see it Spurgeon and the Wesley's and others, were praying and thinking more, the scriptures point to the fact that Israel needs to be in the land, or they will come back to the land. So Christians began to pray and say, we need to do something about this to to bring the Gospel to Jewish people as well. And so in about the late 1800s, DL Moody called a prayer meeting across Europe and America, for Christians to pray together for revival. But not only that, to pray for the nation of Israel. And so combined with that, wave prayer came, more and more and more Jewish people come back to the land. So interestingly, when they began to pray, you began to get the pogroms in Russia, Jewish people being persecuted there, which said,
Reverend Ben Cooper:when they began to pray, they began to pray. Yes, there was an outbreak of persecution
Brian Greenaway:against Jewish people and someone to America, some going to other parts of Europe, Western Europe. But some did go back what in what was called the first Alia, the first Alia back to Israel. And what roughly date was that? So that was about the 1870s. Okay, and then you had the second area. So she's still praying for revival praying for Jewish people, evangelism of Jewish people. So about the late 1800s and early 1900s, you get the second Dahlia, which established Tel Aviv, it established the Jewish Defense League, the language began to be revived, or that was a little bit later, but all sorts of things began to happen, you know, it's Jewish newspapers began to appear. So the roots of the modern nation have began to form in the land you think of you think of Ezekiel as prophecy, okay, about the dry band has dry bones and the stages, you know, an Ezekiel goes down to the valley, and God says, What do you see? So, there's a load of dead bones, they're dry, they're parched, you know, there's, and he says, can they live? And he says, you know, Lord, as the right answer, he got asked your questions on those, so you're not, you know, so he says, Okay, and so and you think in that progress of Zico, 36, where the bones come together, and then rupture the sin, you start to go on the muscles, and then the skin further build up, finally, breath, the breath goes into the breath. And so we see in that parallel, through the 1870s, right through to 1948. And beyond, we see the bones come together, the muscles, the flesh, and finally, the life that is breathed into the light. That is that prophecy, and many parallels the dry bones to the Holocaust course. And when we had an Holocaust, recently, you know, that picture of death and destruction and but from that God can bring life. And so you know, three years after the Holocaust, three years, after 6 million, more or more of my people were destroyed in that terrible thing. Suddenly, Israel comes to life as a nation, how can you have this nation marijuana in the day the province?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Can a nation be born in a day? Yes,
Brian Greenaway:yes. Again, God brings us purposes about it. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is completely against what the world has been trying to do. But it has grown, it has been revived, it has been restored. It's just like a human being, isn't it? That you can be lost and miraculous you can. You can rebel. But God's promises His promise, He will bring you back, the Father's arms are always open. He will finish what he started he will complete everything that you promised. Even though the person may go off and be a protocol even though Israel may go and do it wants to do when when the final breath is drawn, it will be and we will be exactly where God knew that we would be. So when I look at Israel as I look at Israel, sometimes as a human it, it's walked away. It's got everything going on its back. And as you said that great that great prophecy in Ezekiel was so powerful that because I look at that, and I think Wow, the structure, the sinew, the tissues and the most of all the power of God's
Brian Greenaway:breath. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So altering something or nothing. And if you think of, as I 53, something we'll talk about that scripture where it says about, as believers in Jesus, we see that as a picture of Jesus suffering on the wit, beaten, taken on him, and that sort of thing. And that's what it is. That is the primary meaning of that prophecy. No, it points the Messiah is suffering on the cross. And so people often say, why is it Jewish people read Isaiah 53, but don't see the Messiah. And that's because the classical rabbinical interpretation, is that that is a image like using a bit of the nation of Israel, the notion of a look at the suffering, they say, that's the suffering we went through. Yes, because of God's calling upon us. So they would look at that and say, that is a picture of what's happened to Jewish people over the last 2000 years. So they see it as personified in them as a people. And in a certain sense, there's a truth about that, with the persecution that the Jewish media suffered. Yeah, there's that because it was prophecy is amazing, isn't it? Because it can offer more than one to three years difference. And so Isaiah is yes, is in one level about the nation of Israel, and the suffering that they've been through, in a sense for the sins of the world, because they are God's chosen God's chosen because they are identified with God, suffer because of it. So that's a skull repenting interpretation of as if 53 Of course, the ultimate fulfillment, is the Messiah dying on the cross for the sins of the world.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Absolutely amazing. The pictures and the prophecies, and what Israel's been through and what he's got to go through and everything happening. You made a point to the Holocaust, that there was 6000 70 million, sorry, 6 million, that that we lost? How many? Are there actually, in Israel? What is the figure of the nation?
Brian Greenaway:It's vanished now? Because it's 6 million is not that long ago, a couple of years ago, because the largest number of Jewish people in one group were in America for many time, many, many years. But five or six years ago, that changed and it's now Israel. Okay, so it's approaching 6 million resident Jewish people in
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can't, I can't grasp that. That 6 million were taken. 6 million was taken. Yeah, we're at the borderline of 6 million again. So it is tiny. I mean, it almost got wiped. When you when you when you think. But God keeps restoring. Yeah, it does. He keeps restarting it. And again, he's promised the build the build the build up the the continuation that it will come to what God has prophesied and what the scripture says. So when you think it's only 6 million? And how many we got a will we up to 97 million, we've got a young population, our population is somewhere around, it's around about the 90, right, right. I'm sure it is please someone to correct me or 67 or something like that. Another have equated it to thinking is only 6 million ish. 6 million was wiped. Now we've got around about that sort of figure. Okay, and it's around. How can that little place? Hold it together? Yeah. And still produce what it produces? does what it does. So it seems to be so forward in, in its thinking even in the technology?
Brian Greenaway:Yes. Yeah. Very much. startup nation really, is it? I can't
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can't get it. Because when you look at all the other nations, they are millions of people. Look at India, yes, over a billion. And then you've got this little tiny nation that is got almost everyone trying to vote it was a knockin. But that has been from day one. Yes. As you mentioned about the Scripture.
Brian Greenaway:So it has been a struggle. It has been a struggle right from the beginning, you know, Israel as a nation sort of born in battle,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's never going to disappear. Because it is is right. It's here. It's God's promises, God promises you. And it shows you so much through this that this tiny little fragment of a 6 million against a 50 million nation or we're 60s, whatever, wherever we are, in America and you look at Russia, you look at China, you look at what China does to the percentage of and you think Israel is very fierce when it comes to actual I'll put this Be careful. Pharmaceutical,
Brian Greenaway:yes, right. Pharmaceutical, agriculture,
Reverend Ben Cooper:very up on technology, it it those
Brian Greenaway:phones that's in phones, I mean that most people's phones wouldn't function without something that was developed. It didn't
Reverend Ben Cooper:in Israel, from a handful of people. Yes. That have struggled and is very divided.
Brian Greenaway:Yes. Yeah. Is
Reverend Ben Cooper:this we have this powerful living now. One that can never be wiped
Brian Greenaway:out Miss prophetic, isn't it because prophetic, you know, he said initially to Israel, you will be enlightened the nations that was their purpose, you know, and the ultimate purpose is that they would reflect God's glory, isn't it? So that was when he took them into the land of Canaan, he said, right, you will be a light to the nations because then you will reflect my glory, because you know, he's the chosen this now, of course, we know the whole story, we read the Bible. But actually, today we see, you know, a disproportionate number of Nobel Prizes, as you said, technology and everything like that. So God is a perfect indicator that Israel are a light to the nations in the natural, yes, what they are not yet. Yeah, it's like two nations in the spirit in the Spirit, which is what ultimately what God wants to do. Yes. And we were involved, you know, Mars, we've realized that as a ministry, we have a number of areas of work from publishing, books, Christian books in Hebrew, translate from our work with the congregations, and what's called mas aid, which is helping those in need believers in the back in the body stronger. And one area, which we really felt God telling us to emphasize is the site of worship. Now, people may not think that, well, actually, everything we know about worship as believers was really started in Israel, wasn't it? You know, even read the Bible. Okay, that's a Hebrew book about worship, just about worship. So we have felt that, you know, this, in a sense of what we're doing in worship, with our studio that we've got in Jerusalem, and those under our creative director shinny is that is the raising up of that, if it's called priesthood. Wow. And if you think, you know, think of the fall of Jericho, and the Joshua had to send out the ark, blowing the trumpets for six days, but most people didn't, doesn't say a word. On the seventh day, the trumpet blew, and they all shouted, and God has given you the victory. So they're right from the beginning of Israel, there was a pattern, that that worship was a key aspect of who they were, as people worship at the temple of the tabernacle initially. So we see that what Israel is missing is that worship, prophetic side, which God has called it to, so whether we call it the vertical result, but the restoration of the worshipers of Israel is something that we really, really feel God is calling us to, which is what we're working on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think that's really, really interesting, and very significant for where we are, for this day worship, because we have lots of worship out there that is very worshiping who you know, and so when you when I listened to you, and I'm taking all this in, and you're speaking about worship, and you're getting back to the heart, the very heartbeat of Scripture worship. And maybe this is just my opinion, which is not good. But I think a lot of worship that we have today really isn't worship in the God of Israel. And I think that's where a lot of issues lie or where we are not seeing the stuff that we should see. Because who are we worship in through the music? Is it the worship leaders? Is it what is it and that's a massive subject on its own. So when you look at Jericho, the obedience, but worship was used as a pattern. So the biblical pattern for worship is very, very powerful. And I think as a westernized church, we have come away and adopted the secular pattern. I think I think what God is leading you to as a ministry is very powerful. Yeah, very, very powerful. Because even if you look at King Josephat example, another example of send the worshipers out what, hang on, what do you know what's coming over the hill,
Brian Greenaway:basic Sandhurst, the military academy
Reverend Ben Cooper:thats not military. Go out. Just send the is worshipers. So obviously, without any shadow of a doubt, God is leading the ministry God is there's a new beginning. Yes. There's there's a there's a revive that there's a there's a fresh breath that so you're entering into new territory?
Brian Greenaway:Yes. Yeah. Right. I'm not sure. Yeah. I mean, there are other ministries. Yeah. So that feel that call, which is great. You know, so we see it across the body. I mean, we might say all our people copying each other, no, sometimes God, God's doing something, isn't he? He's doing different people in the body in Israel to worship the emphasis on worship. And people might say, Well, why aren't there more important things to do? What actually no, actually was the chief aim of man? Yeah, is that if you look back through Christian doctrine, history, it's to worship God, isn't it? That's what we're designed
Reverend Ben Cooper:for what was Lucifer What does he want? He wants to be worship. So worship is can I use the word instrument can I use the word weapon can what what how do we sum this work this up worshiping the God of Israel, breaks every stronghold. We sit down we fruit through the Scripture, you know, they wasn't bred for fighting. They wasn't they was just human beings going out in front of the enemy, but when they left Did that price walls fell, the enemy turned in on itself. Miracles happen in examples. You know, Miriam picks up a tambourine look back and she started praising God. And so there's so much in biblical worship. Yeah, there is. And I think there's a very fine line of coming away from biblical instruction in worship and then entering into the world. So we pray, Brian, that God will strengthen. We've hit the button. Now we're almost out of time. We got a few minutes. But this is really interesting conversation that we're having Brian has just give us a tiny, tiny insight to what's going on. And how can people find you and find this ministry? How can they sew into that prayer finances? What's next for someone
Brian Greenaway:show? Well, we got two websites, we've got our International website, and our UK website. So they're both very, very similar. So obviously WWE dot, but it's marmosets, ma Oh, Zed mas Israel, mas Israel. And dot o RG is our international site. and.uk is our British site. That's the best way to access symbol we, we have a monthly report. Okay, so it goes out every month, either in paper or in electronic form. And we can send that to anyone free of charge. And they'll get an update what's happening in Israel, what the latest projects are, we got a fascinating series, actually, at the moment of how Mars started the origins, how, and it's just been going on for the last seven or eight weeks. So we know we can send back issues. You can read there the history of Mars, because it is really a history of the Messianic movement and how it's grown. So that's the key thing to sign up for our report. And we also do a weekly prayer letter straight from Jerusalem, about the latest news right from the heart. So you can sign up for all those things through our website.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Brilliant.
Brian Greenaway:So yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:so all the links all the social, we can find you see you follow you connect with you. Whether that's here within the UK, or bashioum in Israel, there is a way forward. Right? It's been so fascinating. It's so fascinating. 50/45 minutes have gone. So brothers and sisters, men, women, whoever you are across the world, we thank you so much for listening to us. And you've been listening to my lovely friend, Brian. And we're going to love you and we're going to leave you all but we will be back very, very soon with some more, more from this great ministry. Brian, thank you so much for sharing your heart and just giving us an update. You know, it's been a long time, isn't it? Since we gather the close of these mics. May God bless you. So you can find us very clearly on I Heart Radio, you can find us on Amazon music. Amazon has accepted all these podcasts we're on there. We're pressing us all global stuff. And, you know, to share this stuff out Listen, can we have some feedback, but may God bless you and strengthen you wherever you are today across this beautiful earth that God has created. One thing's for sure is God is in control. God is in full charge. God loves you. You are blessed and you are a child of the living God wherever you are today. Have a great day in your timezone in your nation in your country. Have a wonderful weekend. In Jesus name, Amen.