Good afternoon and welcome. Thank you for joining us here at Elim church. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper and Steve Vallah as we gather around the mics. And we just want to put a big welcome out there to everybody that listens to this stuff back, week in week out. And we are so blessed to have some feedback starting to come through. After all this hours of pushing and praying and reading and podcasts, and it's great starting to see everything coming back. You can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, Amazon, music, and many, many other places. And may God bless every one of you. This is great. I've got to be very true for today that the lockdown in certain areas has been very beneficial. To get us to, to get the word out is pushed us they're stretched us but God had a plan. So wherever you are today, please share this stuff out. And we're looking at sanctification with my good friend and my good brother. And I'm going to say his Bible teaching is outstanding. And God is using it. And he's chuckling and he's going to poke me in the eye but may God bless him and strengthen him and wherever you are today, please share this stuff out. And again, welcome Steve Lesko.
Steve:Good afternoon, everyone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We're in.
Steve:Yeah, go look at this area of sanctification. doctrines of grace, which we've been looking at, over the past few weeks. Redemption justification. Now sanctification, possibly looking at adoption later on. But these these are the four main
Reverend Ben Cooper:key fundamental, yeah,
Steve:these are the four main ones. And all of them are walls and ease and is to come, I mean, flex God's actual character. And in sanctification, we have two areas, we have positional sanctification, and we have progressive sanctification. And I find often that ministers either get too mixed up yet, or ignore the positional sanctification, or gloss over it or whatever, but they, they never look at it in any depth. So we're probably I don't know, we'll start positional, completely. But we'll have a look at that. And we'll have a look at the progressive as well. But if we pick up in one Corinthians, one and two, I'm gonna, there's going to be several texts I'm going to read, to give us an idea. So in First Corinthians letter, first chapter, Paul says, Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and sawston, he is our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place, call on the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, both there's an hour's Grace to You, and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's one and I just want to pick up one more in the Corinthian letter. And then we'll pop in Ephesians, as well. But in one Corinthians six 711. Paul says is now therefore it is already an utter failure. He's talking about people taking people to court. Now, therefore, is already an utter failure for you. You go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? No, you yourselves do wrong and cheap? And you do these things to your brethren? Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived neither fornicators nor I, I don't idolaters nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor Viners, nor extortions will inherit the kingdom of God, and such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God, Amen. So the Corinthian church is pretty much renowned for getting it really failed up. Right? They made so many mistakes and making
Reverend Ben Cooper:me smile because it just gives you a bit of peace when you hear this
Steve:whole Yes, a site that you've blown it so much. You know, you're not in a church anymore. You've lost yourself. You've lost your salvation. You know, he goes on, he says you're saying For you, people are making an absolute pig's breakfast of everything but you're still still sanctified. This is dissing beautiful. And this this term of sanctification is equivalent to being holy. Now, it's, it's an interchangeable word,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Steve, this is too big for me today because this, this is really helping me because everything we talked about on air off air and just know that your salvation is so secure, even when you mess up, yes. Even like the Corinthian church, when this great writer goes, you lot, yeah, you are so far away from what you should be back, but
Steve:you're still sanctified, you're still holding. Alright,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it doesn't. It doesn't compute with a natural mind does it? It doesn't fit
Steve:this aspect of sanctification as a site's equivalent to being holy, or set apart. We'll look at that. We'll see that later on. But Paul does not challenge their position in Christ, you are sanctified.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is making me really tearful, you
Steve:are sanctified. And then we go into the area of progressive sanctification, which is what he's telling this lot to wake up and don't stop living like you did. You're supposed to live differently.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, God, how gracious how glorious awake your
Steve:ideas up. Yeah, get stuck in prayer, get stuck in a word, seek the Lord. Because he's already sanctified you, He loves you. But you're making breakfast of your life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's so interesting, the way that you've put this because Steve mentioned about pastors and churches scurry away from these conversations and the studies, but actually, they are very simple to understand, aren't they? But because the way the church has presented it, it has made it in so complicated to think that I can never get I can never aspire to what, what they they think and what I should
Steve:do when I see one of the problems is that whether we like it or not, we've inherited something from both wisely. Infini Yeah. Which is this idea or idea of perfectionism?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And that was put in here.
Steve:Yeah, that way should be it. Oh, it says in the word be perfect as your father. Yeah. We understand. Yes. But there was teaching it came out of Wesleyan. But there's
Reverend Ben Cooper:an abuse of that tape is like there's a, there's a manipulation of that. And it makes you feel bad, bad, bad, worse than the actual sin, because you're trying to aspire to this position that you can't get to. And it makes you it can make you feel unwell. It can make you stressed like that. That great testimony you shared the other day, hey, you got so stressed, because you couldn't get to whatever layer that was, and it affected your buddy. Yes, he did. Yeah. But what we are saying here is that this writer, Paul said, You are way out of line, you are the church, but you are still saved, police ox up, get back to what you should be doing.
Steve:And it's a case of you can't affect your sanctification. That's established in Christ in heavenly places were read that later on as well. But your life here on earth is supposed to reflect this. Yes. Ah, reflect? Yes. All right. It's supposed to reflect what you are. And the idea is that you seek God and cry out to him to continue that work of sanctification. within you, you see things that are wrong. You know, the Spirit of God shows you there are things in your life that 100% All right. And then you you can't change yourself. No, you can't that
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's that's the key. I cannot change me. No. But again, the bat, hey, yes,
Steve:we come back to this point that God points these things out because he wants to change them. He wants to get rid of them. He wants to deal with them. We come back to their old job again. Joe was declared righteous by God. Yeah, he is declared righteous by God. But one of the reasons Joe back to go through what he went through, was that there were things in job that God did not like he hated, and he wanted to get him out. But Joe was of such a conditioned mind, that the only way God was able to wake him up was to take him through that dismal catastrophe that came into his life. And we all must learn from Jove, if if we are not teachable, if we're not open to the Spirit of God, if we are convinced, I mean, Darrell, Joe be a the kids would have a dinner and eat sacrifice, just in case they say we can't sacrifice
Reverend Ben Cooper:judge. Love it just
Steve:nice. And so whilst Joe was declared righteous, yeah, there was a certain area of self righteousness with and it was only at the end when it came to understand right at the knockin got to be clearly righteous all the way through.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But isn't that comforting the thing that a great man like, like Job's still had these points of the flesh around him? Yes, but he was still right. But it's so there's no one perfect, of course not only Christ from Genesis to Revelation, Christ, and religion has put so much weight on, isn't it? And it is it has painted this picture that you look around you think I could never get to that sort of level, but no one's at that level. And that level that they paint is not the level that that they're that the scripture is referring to. Because when we have done the studies and the in depth studies that you have done through lockdown, and now there is a quickening in what God is doing with you as a teacher, Bible teacher. I'm going to be brutally honest, this is given me freedom. 25 years I've been in the ministry, and I've been bound by religion, and stress and strain. Because you see Grice, trying to be the perfect pastor grace is
Steve:always seen as on one hand. Paul speaks of in Romans, should we send them all the gracious round? No, we should not. He says that's that's a condemnation. But people don't understand this area of position. Yeah. And progression. The fact is, when you're saved, you're saved in Christ forever. You can't affect that this all your life down here affects where you live. Yes. Is your sanctification, where you live, and how you honor God with your life. And if you are truly born again of the Spirit of God, any sin within you you hate and you want to get rid of,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and you're wrestling with it? Yes. And the thing is,
Steve:I mean, for instance, the other day, okay, now, this is, this is the wonder of God. So I'm in prayer, and I'm praying about something. Now, as you goes through life, you say, oh, yeah, I've dealt with it. And oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, prayer. And this still small voice comes along and says, you've got this area of pride you need to deal with, oh, God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:oh, my dangerous area.
Steve:And as I'm praying, I can feel it you confess, Lord, forgive me. Completely. I say I understand it. Forgive me. I'll bring it to you. Thank you for showing it to me. Lord, I'm so grateful that you've shown it to me. Thank you. Thank you, Lord, take it for me. So he doesn't reveal things to leave in there. He reveals them. So to get rid of them, but he wants you to be a co worker, William is
Reverend Ben Cooper:to recognize as well, yes, a wretched man and my Yes, very much. So we have mentioned that more times. And we've had dinners recently over that text. But that is very refreshing. To to think that my good friend Steve has been in prayer and He has been pushed to that position have gone. Hang on a minute, I thought I dealt with that. I thought that that that was gone X amount of time ago. But the power of the Holy Spirit and the way God works, the graciousness and the gentleness, yes. And that's how, how can this God be so big, but be so gentle?
Steve:Yeah. The thing is, what we have to understand through these things, is the the sheer depths of sin that is within our fallen condition, and how far away we are from God in that fallen condition, and that there is nothing we can do to get there now. Being born again, is being transformed into the likeness of Christ. It's more than that. But you're being you've been born from above. Yeah, yeah. Now this born from above. separates you from your old man. It's separate you. But the old man is still there is still
Reverend Ben Cooper:this very wealthy. He still Yes, he still wants access, and control. Of course,
Steve:it's all mainly it's all up in the mind. Because it's the mind which dictates to the body what it wants to do. Yes, yeah, yeah. And so these things have to be worked out. And if you hold to this idea of you, in some ways, are adding to your salvation, then you've got a problem,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that that's a massive problem, isn't it? If and you do think there are a lot of people that hold on to that, and are frightened of losing it and frightened of not doing enough to keep it because of what has gone on so much. And you look at the world they're not perfect, but the church tries to paint this perfect picture. And then you think and you sit in churches and you think God, a wretched man of mine and it gives you a false sense of I can't aspire to that this. But I shouldn't be trying to aspire to that, but they paint this wrong oil painting. And then that effect you
Steve:see what they're afraid of one of the reasons people don't like preaching grace is what they're afraid of, is giving a license to sin?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Will you said saying that has just blown the lid off of saying, right?
Steve:What they're afraid of, they're afraid of preaching grace, because they're afraid of giving a license to sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So what we are saying is that when you preach, right, you explain it to me that it go a little bit deeper, because if I take that, I would say, right, well, I'm getting from Grace, this grace that is unconditional, if I sin intentionally, because my flesh has desired and taken over me. What happens to me
Steve:right, so this again, this is a problem of not understanding what it is to willfully sin. Yes. And intentionally sin, which unfortunately, Christians, do we tell lies. All right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Just a little while, we took a little while to get out
Steve:of the trouble people to ask you. That's a willful sin. Yeah. But the point about willful sin, it's about a life condition. Excellent. Now when you before you were saved yet, right. You like to jar? I love you like to do I loved it. I loved it right. You like to panel around interested to murky what was it? How he lived it? Just like Paul says, yes. Okay. Yeah. Now you willfully did it. I will fully done. Natalie did it because that was your life. That was your will.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And then when we say that, we enjoyed it to a degree to a show. That is That was that was before?
Steve:Yeah, but that was your Will you woke up in the morning? Yeah. Okay. I'm off. And you felt right. I gotta go. I gotta go work with David more often. So now I'll go down a few jobs when alleged in actual fact, it's Friday night, so we'll probably get out all weekend. You know, God said, right. Yeah. This is willful. This is willful because planning expecting is because it's doing so lifetime. It's a lifestyle. A lifestyle? Yes. Yeah. So let's willful. Yeah. As Christians. We find a new willingness. Yeah. All right. Yes, yes. And we have this battle going on inside that one.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That one, right. I B, B. A.
Steve:And we find ourselves wretched man, I am doing net which I don't want to do. I don't want to do it, but why not? Alright, so this is where Paul's talking about the difference. Big difference. Right. Okay. Yeah. That will or you know, you said he, I don't know what he did. He might smack someone in the mouth. I mean, it could be a volatile character.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It could be it could be a right. You can read it in here.
Steve:He got he got a write up with with Mark
Reverend Ben Cooper:Denny. It's very true. He could have got very aggressive. Yeah, he could have pinned him against the wall.
Steve:Or you could see you can see in his old life, that he was a murderer that he wanted to persecute the Christians. He wanted to kill them. He wanted to kill him an eight month old. So this was within his flesh.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So he's carrying this he's carrying it. Yeah. It's
Steve:really Yeah. So there gonna be times when he does what he doesn't want to do. The old man rises, the old man rises. Yeah. But he's, he's, he's been changed that he wants to live a different life. And it's a different this is the majority of people when they teach again, we come back to this point of, oh, if you're teaching great, you're you're teaching liberty to sin. It comes down and not understanding the difference between willful sin which John points out is pointed out in Hebrews. If you continue in your lifestyle, continue the key word right if you continue in that lifestyle, yeah. You really have to say, well, you're really not of Christ. Yes. All right. Yeah. Now I I would challenge any Christians say that. I challenge any Christian to say that, you know, don't don't have a problem with their flesh in one way or not. All right, know that. I mean, there was one bloke quite I'm not gonna name his name, but he's, he's quite well known broadcaster in America. Said one day, you know, I haven't seen for 10 years. There you go. One, I was just, nobody's a patient yet. You know, I haven't seen and I haven't seen notes. And the point about selling again, this is one of the problems that it is interesting the activity of the bodies in the activity
Reverend Ben Cooper:of the mind. So now this right, the Bible speaks about you think you've done
Steve:it? Yes, exactly. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:even the thinking you've done it Yeah. So the actual I
Steve:went down a road and it goes it cuts me out what back you think you're doing you
Reverend Ben Cooper:knock it? You've done it. Fighting. You've we've all played the scenario these these plays out. So then all of send them falling short. We go So there's only one righteous. So what can give people comfort for your teaching and for today's podcast is that you are sanctified, you are saved, you are a child or living God. And it is perfectly normal within the human being to have them wobbly moments, yes. But the Holy Spirit is giving you counsel to deal with the pride, the arrogance, the lust of the eyes, that pride of life, when they otherwise
Steve:are looking at it is if you think that you can have the attitude as to what God understands. You know, he knows he understands the way
Reverend Ben Cooper:may, you've got an extract problem. That's the that's the big one. God doesn't understand. He doesn't understand that
Steve:he doesn't know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when we when we you just brought up a very valid point of they don't teach this disgrace, because it gives you an insurance policy to go, but that they they're not. So they're not understanding the correct teaching of it anyway.
Steve:I mean, my wife, my wife, was terribly insulted one time by Lady early when she when she spoke about this area of the full salvation. Wow. Not being able to lose your sanctification, not being able to lose your salvation. And this one said, Well, that's right, and you just can't sleep around with everybody. Can't you just do what you want to do? You can just go and that was not in my wife's, and it has never been in my wife.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's normal. It's not the miser so that that that lies the problem with the person that said that doesn't exactly right. And that's what we got today. Exactly. Right. pastors and leaders, bishops and deacons, A, B, C's and DS don't fully know the depth of the text to understand that it doesn't give me a license. But what it actually does, it frees me from the fear and the stress and the worry, because what you find is a lot of people that deliver a line like that now petrified to even watch the telly.
Steve:Yes. Oh, yeah, I can't do anything because this is the strange part about it. All right. Now my wife is She's a smart girl. And she said she's beautiful. And she's always looked after herself. And but she's not like, you know, she Yeah, she she's not. She doesn't pander to us or anything like that. But she's a good looking lady. And she's always dressed smart. And she always looks good. And the only bit of makeup. She's guilt you're wearing all the time is literally, right. I can't go out literally on that. How
Reverend Ben Cooper:many of them do that? Let me on Betsy. Yeah,
Steve:you know, she don't cover a set with foundation. But people used to look at us. You know, you're
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, no, you're not gonna say that. Wrong. But
Steve:the strange part about it. All right. After four or five months, all these women that were sneering down at everyone walk around. Oh,
Reverend Ben Cooper:there you go. Typical, isn't it? How religious is that? Well, I look at you. Look at you, you look. So what we're what we're talking about grace, just for a moment, this disgrace actually brings freedom to those that really understand what it actually means.
Steve:Grace does not give me a license to sing grace gives me the ability to see Yes, God to be set free from the hideousness of my sin in my flesh,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he becomes a highlighter pen to know it circled this area of dangerous areas of living. And it gives me a freedom to know that that God has taken that I am free. But if I look at that and think then it becomes a performance doesn't it that I can't look I can't watch telly I can't do this that word I will never get the front door
Steve:we'll see now this is this is the strange thing that over the years I was a great movie buff I love Yeah. Yeah. Why would he is I've seen i There are films I can't watch anymore. I just can't see. Now this is not a conscious decision upon my part. Why the Holy Spirit has worked in me that there are certain films that I just I can't watch that I can't watch that I can't watch that
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that's the same thing has happened to me. I used to better watch certain things and then it came a point without me really realizing Hang on. I'm not gonna watch that anymore. And it's not me are you doing that work? No, it's God. This is what you're saying over years of God gently and slowly stripping back moving in cleaning in the house dealing with me and you and letting us know I'm doing this yes, it's okay. It's okay don't because I can't start doing anything that the flesh
Steve:go we find the guides because we let's say that we win the war against it, but that's a part and parcel of our sanctification. Right the warring against the flesh. That's our part in sanctification. Yeah, okay, let me read this This is from Philippians. And it's to 12 to 13. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for his God who works in you to both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And then this is the cooperation between the Christian and God, alright. Understanding this outworking of it, some very strange teachings on this. But the point about it is that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it's got works in a so what we understand by this is that those things are within me that need to be dealt with a knife, I bring before God and I cry out before God, these things are evil and wrong, Lord work, you're willingly cleanse me, change me. There are things as I said earlier, he does without intervention of prayer without his highlights, yes, right. But there are other things that he doesn't. He does highlight certain things, and he does want certain things to change, and he will highlight and it's this area of the CO operative aspect of our sanctification, and this is progressive. It doesn't. It doesn't change our positional sanctification normalized, right? Yeah, we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are seated.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's that's all sit down, finish our seats. We are We are finished. Finished. That's it. That's
Steve:it. Okay. But then we have this progressive, yet sanctification now,
Reverend Ben Cooper:on work in process of the Holy Spirit of the Word of God, God's plan and purpose. So really, I can relax. And just say, Father, thank You for peace. Because
Steve:search, search, search me out, search, shaming, search me out, show me what's wrong. Show me what you want to deal with in my life. So this is the king, this is the show. This is an if you've got that piece in God, and he shows you these things. You don't come under condemnation. Why? Because he says in Romans, Therefore there is now no condom for those if you read the cut, in which their content context of what Paul is saying, coming off the back end of Romans seven is that, yes, we've got to deal with these areas in our life. We've got to deal with these areas of flesh, but we are not condemned. Why because we are in Christ. Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, it's gone, it's gone, the condemnation is gone. The area in your life that God wants to deal with whether it's anger, or Sloss, or whether you're eating too much drinking, or whatever it is. Okay, yeah. Whether it's murdering your heart because of anger. Yeah. All right. He doesn't condemn you. But he brings you through a place of pain. Wow. Yes, because the thing is, unless you've got that place of peace in God, there are things in your life that can never be dealt with here to your height, and you're scaring them away because of how big of a fines No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can't say that? Don't look at me. I can't even think about that. But it sits there like a rotten tooth. Yes, it does. It's like a rotten tooth and one day, it will ache so much. You will need to go to the dentist and have it extracted. And that's what God does, doesn't he? He can be the only one that can extract this rope
Steve:that this is in Hebrews 10. And this is all this highlights within these four verses, that there is a difference between position and progressive sector. Okay, yeah, there's buyers that will we have been sanctified right through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this man, after he had offered one sacred sacrifice for sins, forever sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till these enemies were made his footstool For by one offering, he has perfected forever, those who are being sanctified. Wow. Alright. So in verse 10, it says, by that will we have been sanctified, right, however, yeah. And then it says, He has perfected forever those who are being defined. So you've got these two positions, or you've got these two aspects you've got, as I say, positional and you've got progressive. Wow. And if you get the two mixed up, yeah. Yes, all sorts of problems. Is not a lie. And I'll repeat I'll keep repeating myself. It is not license to sim.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Most definitely not. To me. It's the complete opposite. It keeps me sharp. And it gives me peace. To know that it makes me smile. It really makes me smile to know that Oh, Richard Manama, all this beautiful text that Steve has been bringing over these weeks through the teaching that God has dropped in his spirit. We are free, no matter how you feel about yourself, no matter what your past looks like, no matter what your future is, no matter what your moment is, at this moment. You are a child, a living God, and you can't run and hide from the fact that you are sanctified. Yes. And, and as you look at the current church, when you look at what he was saying to them, you've got everything going on under the sun here. Even though you've got a read, if
Steve:you read you read it,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you wouldn't even have that you think it can't be to church, its got to be the world.
Steve:But this is the great part about the Corinthians. Right? He writes a lecture on any upbraids them and he has a right popper. In the second letter,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he has to pull them back, they've gone too far. So that's very interesting in itself
Steve:when he has a go a bloke who's sleeping with his mother, which I'm assuming he doesn't say that word, but he says, you know, he's got his father's wife. Could these crises in an incestuous relationship? Let's
Reverend Ben Cooper:just hold that there a minute. Without going into the the fact that depth of that when you just pause and think of that. That is amazing to think that that is happening under that roof. And
Steve:there is still hope. Yeah, but when you come to the second what so when you come to says, Look, this man has repented, and he's crying. That's why I'm saying forgiveness. Yeah, bring him back into the fold is convicted of what he's done. He understands what he's done, bring him back into the fold. So that's like a protocol, isn't it? Yeah. The Father's arms are always open. See, that's the that's an illustration of a man doing something that he shouldn't do, but he's still sanctified. And then when he's brought under conviction of what he's doing, he repents and cries out to God for forgiveness.
Reverend Ben Cooper:absolutely mind blowing, the word of God is talking about is revealed. Because when it is revealed, it brings such a power of freedom and peace to know if God knew before that man was going to indulge in them activities, but still chose to save him and through the ongoing process. It is it is too big for the mind, isn't it? Because yes, me and Steve understand what people go Well that gives you a license. It doesn't give you a license. It's the complete opposite. It brings you to a place of sharpening up it doesn't make me think that I'll actually because I've got this salvation I'm off I'll see you just before I die Jesus I
Steve:give let me give a little bit of a personal understanding of one of the wiring problems I had to deal with I'm not going to go into it what it was or what it knows what I had to deal with. But I often as I'm crying out to God for forgiveness this salt will drop into my mind yeah. You know you don't have to worry about it you know God Gods you know good, good really doesn't care you know, you can carry on. And I used to get very angry at that voice because I want to carry on. I wasn't interested in carrying on I didn't want I didn't want to I didn't want my sent to be sanctified you answer. Yeah. hated it. And I wanted to get rid of it. Don't give me the go ahead with it. Don't give me the guy because I ain't interested because I don't want it. And I want to be free. Yeah. And I seek God for freedom. Yes. So the enemy will come along, and he will tempt you. You know, continuing what you're doing. Don't worry about it. God. Well, okay, I know God loves me. But that ain't a problem I want to release. And don't tell me that because all you're saying if I carry on, then God is colluding in my sin. And I won't have that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And there was no purpose of the cross. No. It all it all just is meaningless. It is
Steve:if I can carry on living in the way I used to live, and get to heaven as my Savior and all that. Then there's no point as you saw him dying. No. But the truth of the matter is that all Christians have to wrestle with their flesh. Every single one of us no matter who we are, who we are really, you know, you can make some very lovely people. Really nice, beautiful, wonderful Christians. And then when you something happens it's like stirring up a hornet's nest.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It is it definitely. It's like the world is ending. Good job they can't see in my head.
Steve:I'll give a another showing all the aspects of progression and position when this is a people's first letter. And in 1.1 13 sixteenths is therefore good up the loins of your mind when sober, yeah, Rachel, hopefully upon the grace that that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ, As obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the formula says in your ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, Be holy, for I am holy. And again, as I said, this area of how Unison sanctification is synonymous,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can't you can't separate No, no, it's yours. No one science is the same thing, same
Steve:stack, the same setup. And then in one, Peter, two, and nine and 10, he says this, But you're a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, his own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him, who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light, who were once not people, but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. So again, we see this area of position. Yeah. And progression.
Reverend Ben Cooper:a continuum of life. Yes. From the point of birth to the point of death, all at all the time we are breathing on this earth. We are being sanctified, justified, cleansed, washed, forgiven. You can't we already have, but we already have been, but we
Steve:already have been so nice. You know, some ways it's learning to live the life that's already ours.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, definitely. Yes. Learning to live in that position. Really powerful text, isn't it?
Steve:Yeah. Sophie, if you look at the four great stations of doctrines of grace, you've got redemption, justification, sanctification, and adoption, if you read them, or four of them are was because she was saved is because he's going on, and we'll be right. So you've got these. You've got in all four of them. You're adopted, but you're waiting for your adoption. Yet. You're waiting, right? You've been redeemed but you're waiting for your redemption. Yes. All right. I'm justified, but I'm waiting for a justification. So I've been sanctified, but I might miss.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And I say four main points, sanctification, justification, well, redemption,
Steve:redemption, kotian, sanctification and adoption. And these four, as I say, you they are, because that is that's the condition that Christ yes has made you when you trusted in him for salvation. When you were born again, you're born from above? Yes. Okay. So they are seated in heavenly places, having been redeemed, having been justified, having been sanctified, and having been adopted. And now and now us, we are now working out that justification, that redemption, that sanctification, and that adoption. And then one day, one day, when the with the bodily resurrection, we will know the full redemption, the full justification, the full sanctification, and the full adoption
Reverend Ben Cooper:done, make this mild and it really, because there's no element of God asking me in my physical strength to have any input, because it is impossible for the human being.
Steve:What are you going to
Reverend Ben Cooper:do when you don't see what what am I literally going to do? To get myself to that position? You can't?
Steve:No, no, no, I mean, this is this is the problem. what Christ has done on the cross on what he applies into the life of the Christian. Yeah, if you think you can add to it, you're saying that he sacrifice isn't enough? is not
Reverend Ben Cooper:enough, not efficient, it's not sufficient.
Steve:The fact that I have to work out my salvation is a condition that gives me the ability to seek after God for greater holiness, for greater maturity. Yes, all right. And for me to know him more, whilst I live on this earth, so why was not affect it doesn't affect the salvation is mine already in him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not gonna make it any stronger. It's not gonna make it. It's not gonna. It's done. It's given it's finished, that's finished. And
Steve:this aspect of our working our salvation with fear and trembling will affect our character. And we know this if we were five our characters have changed. Some people don't like the idea of that, but they do. Our personalities also are changed. Again, people don't like but this is the way we are. I mean, I've I've known people with a rotten person is that when they say they become very sweet natured Hurry lovely people have to deal with the problem still got there was a problems. I saw this, it's it's to understand the differences that are there within the whole aspect of salvation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Goodness, this is really freeing me up this has freed me up I, I this is this might sound really crazy. I thought I could fly. Do you know when you get to a point certain moments in your hallway for Christ you, you just you just know.
Steve:And you don't. And yet you're sitting there and you have absolutely no desire in your heart run it and Cindy,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, no, go back to your old life. Don't go back to that go back to that at all. But because of the teaching and because of religion, and because of the whole aspect of churches together and all that razzmatazz, and all that conferences and all that you don't get the clear teaching that is needed to free you up. And then suddenly you find yourself 2425 years down the line across the mic with your friend, who's a Bible teacher talking and suddenly, you feel like you could fly, you feel like you've you've reached a level in your walk with Christ, not because of me, but because the scripture has been revealed. And the Scripture is freed.
Steve:You asked me the other week why people don't teach the doctrines of Christ is because they're afraid to things, but they're afraid of them. And they don't like them. Right? They're afraid. Because, again, you're afraid of being accused of teaching? Yes, a license for sin. All right. And the other reason they don't like him is because man's pride, he wants to have his part in it. Well, you've got your part in in working out your salvation, and that does not affect what Christ has done on the cross. You don't add to it, you don't take away from it. You are expected to work out your salvation, but that does not affect the cross. And all that is done. What you're affirming, yeah. Is that that work? has found lodging in you, and you're working it out. mazing?
Reverend Ben Cooper:God, God, you are just so glorious. The text is just so free. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, there is freedom. It brings freedom doesn't.
Steve:So that's the idea
Reverend Ben Cooper:But that was a silly thing to say about it. No, it's not. It's not is it? Because Because I'm referring to not having clear teachings and not having clear doctrines and not being told. And not. Look, I'm not being funny. But look how quick look how God has moved through these teachings and how easy it is. We can go for weeks and years and hours come in this. But in moments you get the freedom. It's like the Holy Spirit just, I can anger and I goes off and suddenly you I've got it. I've actually got it that it's not about me, it's about him. Sometimes you actually can't put it together, but you get you get this free in feeling. And you think God is just taking me up another rung of a ladder, not because of ministry reasons. That's nothing to do with it. But this is personal walk with him that there has been freedom with the Scripture. So very interesting over the weeks, well over the years, two years now we've been doing all this when we started a little tiny boat where you know, we started out the porch, that little tiny poultry, I just live streaming this stuff. But from all this stuff, the two years that we've been doing all this sort of stuff, 18 months or whatever, whatever it is, I have been fed more and had more in these hour sessions than my whole expanse. Now, I realize I had to go through the expense of what I experienced Yes, for such a time as this. So it's not for anybody to worry. On the other side of these, this these mics. Oh my God, God, God will do what you're going to do, and you might be going for a very unusual time. But now we are starting to Stein to say that that we are we have been very weak in doctrine. So not doctrine of grace is needed across the UK. like never before. We are critical. Just about
Steve:every minister either sound was someone that believed that you could lose your salvation, but never ever pointed out how it could be lost. Yeah, yeah. And would never ever go anywhere near the doctrines of grace. Because they were so afraid of preaching a license for sin. And it's it's I remember butchered some time ago but Charles Swindoll Yeah, he wrote the book The Christ killers.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh yes. I'm now chance to get going. So
Steve:in any is pointing out The fact that the fear within man's heart is such that if I preach this, I'm,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm giving myself giving myself
Steve:over to libertarianism and denying God and denying His Holiness, whereas we are holy. So now we work out that holiness, you know that salvation, we're working it out. We're working out, we're working out. We're working out at redemption. We're working out our justification, we're working out their sanctification, we work in our adoption. That's what that that's what it is, yeah. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. That's the whole aspect of salvation that you're working out. You know, it's coming to an understanding of that there's an awful lot of people that don't grasp this area of adoption. And how important
Reverend Ben Cooper:that is that be interested in regard to that? Yeah, it's
Steve:because adoption in and of itself is not. It wasn't a big thing. within Judaism as such it, there is areas where it touches on it's very, very important. But it was very, very important as Romans. adoption was extremely important to them. If a person was adopted into a family, it was as though they were born into that family.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Rarely. Yeah, they will start strong. Yeah, it was, yeah, no questions
Steve:are questions about it. And they were in they were accepted by by everybody, as the son of that house or the daughter of that house. It was an old they came from they used to they used to be that was all gone and finished that that old life was finished, it was gone. Now, they belong to this house.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So now you see the strength spiritually, then you have destroyed a very tiny bit of illustration that you broke, that we are adopted. Yes. grafted in crafts today. Yes. Steve, it's been absolutely fantastic. We've got 15 minutes away there.
Steve:as well. Suppose we are really yeah, that is there's no point in over again to put in you can go for weeks with this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But that, that is my point. My very point. It's quick, it's easy. And it's it's just beyond words. It literally is just beyond words. Wherever you are today. We just want to say thank you so much. You know, this has really spoke to me. This has really touched God has really touched my heart today. And I know he will touch yours too, because if he can do it for me. What can he do for you brothers and sisters Steve? It's been a privilege sitting on the other side of the table here today. May God bless you my friend. You can catch us on Buzzsprout I Heart Radio, Amazon music, and all the other places. We are there. Just find Reverend Ben Cooper has podcast 250 ran about. There are hours of Steve's teaching on there. You can just back listen that is the beauty of technology. You can go back and forwards and God is revealing the scripture for our Bible teacher here at Elim church, our brother Steve May God bless him, strengthen him in the mighty name of Jesus. God bless you, God bless bye bye