God bless you, wherever you are today. Welcome. This morning this afternoon, midday evening, midnight, wherever you are across the globe. Thank you so much for joining us here. Simon pinchbeck and myself, Reverend Ben Cooper. And this is#Christian straight talk. And this is another podcast out of the series of fighting talk. But the title is, I'm saved. But what now? Simon, God bless my friend.
Simon Pinchbeck:Good morning, Ben. Good morning, everyone across the world. And it's so excited to be here. I'm excited for this message spent to be honest with you, because you know, the Lord just sort of download stuff done. And this is, this is an interesting one this morning. It's in the series, fighting talk of#Christian straight talk. And really, you know, it's all about knowing who you are in Christ. Whoa, do you know and who are you? Yeah, and we can, you know, talk for a long time on that stuff, identity. But, you know, people get saved, it happened to me, but you know, I got a guy, you know, spent a lot of time in the walk with me, somebody to church, eventually, you know, I made a commitment to the Lord. And then it was like, I was on my own genome. Oh, it was somewhere else. And and fortunately for me, I had that desire to keep going back to that church and eventually did something called an alpha course, Christian course called called alpha and understood a lot more about this Christian thing. Because I think a lot of us when we make a decision for Christ, we were not quite sure what we're getting ourselves into. But we know we, you know, we know we have to walk away from the past and embrace Jesus Christ. But what does it all mean? When you go?
Reverend Ben Cooper:The church is really good about talking about discipleship, isn't it? Because that's what you're saying and that you got? God drew you into the kingdom? God, bro, you got saved? Yeah. And then you had someone to work with. But then suddenly, there comes a point in it when all the when all the glitz and the glamour goes away from it, and you're standing almost in the wilderness. And what's next Lord?
Simon Pinchbeck:What now?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What is this? About? What what is it? What is this story, Lord? Christianity, what's it about? And sometimes you can feel quite lonely can't Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:Ben, you're exactly right. You know, I heard a story about a guy, a gang member who gone into into a church, he had given his life to the Lord. And he thought he was going to get baptized into a family. But he said The gang was more of a family than
Reverend Ben Cooper:interesting. Really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So it obviously we know what gangs are all about. But within that unit, there is a there is a sense of, we got each other. We were responsible for each other, we got each other. We've got each other's life covered, where we're a tight knit, tight knit, but the church, you know, quite loose, isn't it? It's, it's loose with its tongue and its lips. And it doesn't produce what it speaks about.
Simon Pinchbeck:Because, you know, quite frankly, and we'll talk about this more and more, but the majority of the church ain't got a clue about our people live outside real life in real life,
Reverend Ben Cooper:real life scenarios, real authentic situations, going through what we're going for at the moment. Is the church relevant to what is happening at the petrol pump? No.
Simon Pinchbeck:And even you know, even if food I'll even on ml for courses, you know, I was in the Homare Alpha course which prompt and it was about four or 500 people all in little groups. Yeah. And you together. Right? And you is you got that sense of family and those little groups until you're not together until the last session. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, and then it's by and then you're in the wilderness, so many ministries bring you in, draw you in. offer you the world. And then suddenly, the last day, the last moment, you leave the venue, and you're back to where you started. You're back to where you started of this. And what's next because is the massive will sell you the dream.
Simon Pinchbeck:I learned a massive lesson because it hurts me to say this because, you know, I took my youngest son who was struggling with cannabis addiction at the time it took him two on an alpha course. And the addiction was broken, bless him and for that cause exam and he gave his life to the Lord. But I didn't. I was still young in this faith thing. And I didn't realize just how much he needed discipleship, whether it was from me or from but but he then went back into his world, and he got absolutely hammered, then it goes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can go, you can you can go even deeper than what he was before. Because I think what happens is you, you get into the bubble of church and it looks so great and so powerful, which we know that it is to Christ Church, we know that, but we are sold a different church for what our heart is really looking for. And we get to the end of the course you get to the end of the ministry, you get to the end of it. And it's like you're just thrust back into culture and what you was doing, and what you're studying is is not really relevant to your life situation at that time.
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, you come out amongst your so called friends and say, oh, you know, found Jesus. Yeah. Well, you're in a dark world and you're, you know, a
Reverend Ben Cooper:lot of Jesus fit on this building site today. Get back on a forklift and keep your mouth shut and get on and do that. It's so far removed, isn't it ministries from the real life scenario situations, working in a warehouse working on site working in an office I'll go line managers not bothered at all if you follow Jesus, just get your work down.
Simon Pinchbeck:I've got a my random Baker who's a good friend of mine and and he, he listened. He's a bricklayer builder, site, former whatever he is, he gave his life to the Lord. And next week, he the van comes to pick him up to take him to the job, you know, when he's sitting in the back of the van, and I sling him a loader, pornography books, you know, the girly mags, get your eyes on have a look at that render, you know, and he goes, Well, you know, I'm sorry, you know, well,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I believe in Jays. Yeah. And
Simon Pinchbeck:he believe in God. Yeah. It's all about love fellas. The van came erupts a massive Stop, stop by and everyone we want what is right in the lion's mouth any in the church does prepare you for living a life outside? Yeah. What? What next,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because living in the wilderness is 98% of a Christians life. The wilderness is a place of strength and an encouragement insurance. But the church tries to sell you a dream, a Disney Land dream, what it says in some fluffy when actually, it's endure and it's hardship. So when I've done all these courses, and I've done it, I've been to these lovely manor houses and you've done the course and you've been in these churches and he's got all these hundreds of people in and you're it's like you're sitting and listening. Yeah, but how does that really fit? In? In the workplace? How does that really fit on the street? How does that really fit at the school gate? And it can it can push you back? It can push you back to a place of gain? What's this church all about? Because it doesn't fit with the tarmac life? It doesn't fit with the grass around me.
Simon Pinchbeck:How do I how do I relate? How do I open up to these people and tell them you know, because believe me they there's nothing more than they want to pull you back into the darkness probably that you've that you've come from. And churches are Christian bubble. It without a shadow is a Christian but what and don't really prepare people for living as a Christian in the world or in any environment that you should be in because it's you know, you're so when you first come to Christ, you're so full and exuberant. Yeah, and you want to tell everybody and you can't understand why people go, what what do you what you nutcase, you don't understand that get back and make bricks. Remember, one of the guys that are Trinity Brompton, Jamie Hayford, he was a lovely fellow you'd buddy you know, we brought up in the church and wherever he was a great guy. He said, his car broke down in a place called Stockwell South London, which is dodgy. And is a summerstown who was four guys having a beer outside a pub. And he called out to excuse me, guys, you want to help me with that lovely Christian wide. got skinny fellas, you want to help me with a question? Karna went to one mic. Can you help me push the mic anyway? What wasn't used to it wasn't used to it was it used to
Reverend Ben Cooper:I fully I fully grasp that I see that so loud and clear. So that is the question. Isn't it I'm saved. Now I've been on this course I've done that theological degree. I've been trained up as a pastor in, in college, but now I am frosted into the real world. So what we learn and what we're told, and what we're shown at college, universities doesn't always fit. It's not saying that Jesus doesn't fit. We're saying, what we are shown and what we are exposed to isn't completely real life scenarios,
Simon Pinchbeck:no because what happens? What happens what people are not discipled in the fact that what happens when you do give your life to Christ, you're now separate from the world. Yeah, you're separate from the world and you feel that
Reverend Ben Cooper:you feel different, you got to live different, you got to live differently. And you're expecting everybody that in your work environment in your house and your home and your college university, to be like you and to be the people that you've just done a 12 week Alpha course with when actually their language is nothing like it. I don't understand what you're talking about. As far as they're concerned. You're just you're just another Bible believing nutcase that goes to church.
Simon Pinchbeck:I remember being in a church and and they just, they just spent a week at new wine place. New wine. You know, just a big Korean Lake Averin. Elite. And Simon, you should have come with us. Oh, it's a little bit of heaven, blah, blah, blah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Hang on.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, Look, we, you come, you know, you come
Reverend Ben Cooper:and come back to my life will dodge the shopping trolleys, as we walk down the streets, we'll look at the broken windows, how hard does that car fire? How does that helicopter night hovering over that the estate? How? How does the police sirens are quite. So there's two different world isn't there? Oh, actually, I'll probably say there's three, we've got the kingdom of God, which we know. And then we've got the bubble of church. And then we've got this world that we're thrusted into, you know, so it's trying to learn to live very different. So as the title is, I'm saved, but what now, so what I'm told, and what I'm guided through, and we thank God for all these courses, they have their place, they have their structure, and that is great and wonderful. But suddenly, you feel like when you've done all this Christian stuff, your frosty back into the world. And what you've been taught, doesn't fit with the scenario of life don't fit with a shopping trolley. Yeah, of course, don't fit in the shopping, trolley or life,
Simon Pinchbeck:all of a sudden, you Your eyes are opened all of a sudden, you know, oh, that's wrong to do that. That's wrong to do that. And, and all of a sudden, you become if you're not careful, you become this judgmental sort of person who's casting judgment on people who everyone who works before you was doing exactly the same deal. There's no, it's not a course that integrates you into our society. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's the it's a transitional period. And I think that's where the church and religion has failed, because it teaches us or it shows us that this pink bubble, cloud, this fluffy stuff, this elite circle, because there are layers, there are cultural layers in church as well. Certain movements won't lower themselves to certain estates and certain areas, they won't enter into certain arenas, arenas of life, they keep themselves an elite level. So what we find is that we have an issue across the board of church like what we've just come through COVID-19. If the church tall, right across the spectrum of church of how to live in a crisis, many Christians would be a lot stronger than what they are in their faith. Now, not because God is weak, but because the church hasn't taught real sound claim doctrine. That's true. It comes back to fact, teach the Bible and you will create warriors.
Simon Pinchbeck:Teach the Bible. Yeah. And follow Jesus and use Jesus as your example. Yeah. But it's not.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not happening. Isn't that? No. So we find in a mass percentage of believers are going into these ministries going into churches week and time and time again, and just been having their back scratched and rolled up to part with some cash.
Simon Pinchbeck:And there's another important point there and yeah, I mean, yeah, they're bringing people into to, I guess, tithing to the church or fund into the church, but also, if you've got off a story, if you're someone who's had a bit of a live and and all of us have a story, they want to push you up there because it's newspaper and want to set you up there and they want you to you know, to come and share your life. All of a sudden you become the You know, you've Oh, no, no, because I've been through it. And it's a life that I didn't really think was two, but all of a sudden people go, Wow, that's
Reverend Ben Cooper:Wow, look what God's done for them. But look what they've been through. But
Simon Pinchbeck:actually, the sad thing is, you're only there for a season. Yeah. Because next week, someone else is up there. got bigger star, and you're looking around and thinking less about me. Last week, he was all about me this week. You're all about this. Yeah, I think it's, you know what I mean, and I've seen many people fall off the age
Reverend Ben Cooper:because because you've been left again, again, you've been used to, like a is a commodity, to get to move to get this movement moving forward to get there no to right here and there. That name in lights they use. So it's almost like pyramid selling isn't as like, we'll use this to get that once we've got that will knock them back will will. It's like the youth Church, the youth church has dropped a certain age bracket off the peg. So you will find that there are many ministries Driving driving, driving, we've got to get the you've got to get the you've got to you've got to get the youth. I don't know one ended elbow to the other at the moment, a lot of youth, but we're leaning so much into them as spiritual leaders, when actually the older generation that the church has left our wires or learned or scold in life ever experience. But the eyes of the church, a lot of it is we got to get a youth pastor, we got to get a youth ministry you
Simon Pinchbeck:have introduced a subject there which
Reverend Ben Cooper:is because you've cells skinny jeans cell,
Simon Pinchbeck:but when you if you look, you know any Christian job magazine 90% of for youth workers. Yeah. And here's the deal with you for because you know, you've the youth in your church ain't gonna be they're not gonna go, you know, they're gonna go, but you have people in your church that are there we can we count. And that
Reverend Ben Cooper:older generation that grew that could mentor a generation that that we are we are losing a generation, aren't we in this nation that have been through wars, that have been through all types of atrocities that God has equipped and strengthened the, the older Bible teachers, those that have experienced life, and then suddenly, what we want is this polished youth leader, sharp as a pin to look at, but can't punch his way out of a paper bag. Very
Simon Pinchbeck:careful. Be very careful with with youth leaders I've seen. I've seen so many that really are on the wrong path. So you know, I've seen so many youth groups where people have gone. This is a great youth group where people just go and dump their kids off. Yeah, pick them up.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is a great babysitting class.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's a babysitting class, but it's also, you know, are we bringing in the youth off the street will? Hold on a minute, you know, hang on, I've done some some year work in a church. And yeah, you bring the youth off the street, but all of a sudden, two cultures clash?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And the ones on the street, take the ones out of the church. And putting them on, there's no one's
Simon Pinchbeck:no one's talking. No one's ever gonna find better ones who, who was sexually promiscuous,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and they're the ones that are living real life. They're living a real life and living in the real hard us. And by a world and this youth bubble. It's like, it doesn't really exist. It looks great on screens, doesn't it? It looks great at the front for a moment, because it is just a moment. But there is a generation now is uncountable men and women that are well educated in the Word of God, whilst gold wise, really gone through stuff. And it seems to me that over the last few years, the church has like, closed the door to that a certain band of age and focus completely on nappies, rather than wisdom.
Simon Pinchbeck:Do you know what I was with? A guy that, you know, they loaded this youth movement, they call it, you know, here in North London, and it was a church leader. He had a picture of it kids, you know, on the wall on the wall. I said to him, how many of them are still with the church?
Reverend Ben Cooper:He said to goodness, so fact though, isn't it? And
Simon Pinchbeck:then when I started to, not with him, but yeah, but I started to mention this to people that know that you've moment by sight to me, yeah. Well, so many youngsters who were hurt for that youth moment. Yeah, you got to be so so careful. Because the one thing things forgotten in all of this. The one person that is forgotten in all of this is Jesus. She says, I see
Reverend Ben Cooper:people walk out what what about David? He was it. Hang on? No, David was anointed young. And he was called Young. But he had to wait until because there's a difference between being young and being a leader and being young and know that you're anointed. So David had a hard us journey where he was anointed at a young age. And he was called, but he still had to go through the process before he came a leader.
Simon Pinchbeck:By do you think, you know, you've chosen someone, they're bent. But you know, he didn't have an easy life. His life was that's what I'm saying. His life was was tough that he was anointed early. But he had to walk through to go back.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Where did he go back to our through the night and he went back to the field.
Simon Pinchbeck:And he made some bad decisions. He did some really bad decisions. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:he's still under the hand of soul. He was still under the hand of his family. He still was under that position. So we we have a crisis within the church within itself, because it is spiritually weak, not because I got his weak, but because of what we're talking about. Many are saved. But what now, but what now? Yeah, this ministry that I thought was cutting edge, it literally is just hot out. So this course is just hot out.
Simon Pinchbeck:So what we have been we have, you know, we have ministries that go around, picking up and knocking on people's doors. Yeah. And we have a set of questions. Don't get me wrong, you know, I'm sure they, you know, they ask people, and you get people on the doorstep making a decision for the Lord. But what now,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but what now? I'm saved, but what now? Come to church, and we give you a course. Nine minutes. I've never set foot in a church. I want to know can Jesus brightness addiction? We don't talk about sex in the church we don't talk about now we'll we'll do it a different way.
Simon Pinchbeck:Are you coming back next week with you? Are you going to disciple these people? Or are you just taking off for me? Can you take in a box and we take a picture and or whatever? You know, I don't know, I seriously don't know, I pray to the Lord, that these people that that make a decision on their doorstep are discipled in some way. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:that is that that is a continuum that has to happen all the time on discipleship and spiritual directorship. Oh, my goodness, I was with someone the other day that was telling me about all that sort of stuff. You know, it is Christ that is your spiritual director, Christ. I don't even like to use the word spiritual director makes me want to cringe, you know, he is God. Well, let's have a look back. Let's he's God, he's not a direct statement.
Simon Pinchbeck:And let's have a look at a bit of Scripture, which describes all of this, if we go to, and I think is probably one of the most important verses to live in a Christian life is we're going to the book of Philippians, which was written by Paul the Apostle. And we're going to chapter two, and verses five to 13. And we'll just go through
Reverend Ben Cooper:Come on, let's have it. And the
Simon Pinchbeck:first one was, Let this mind, Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. So long, all of a sudden, we're being told that you've made the decision for the Lord. So Christ is in you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right, okay.
Simon Pinchbeck:Who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men. So what we're saying is, this is
Reverend Ben Cooper:taking on this is God in taking off and for taking on no notoriety, taking on nothing completely opposite to what we see in certain ministries, certain areas where, where the leader is lit up like a Christmas tree. Look at what the scripture says He has taken on just an appearance of as a man he humbled himself, becoming obedient to what death
Simon Pinchbeck:and then hang on a minute death. He humbled Himself on becoming a billionaire to the point of death, even death on across
Reverend Ben Cooper:the worst way a human being could ever leave the Earth, the crucifixion, as a showstopper in it, this is when you look at that scripture who been in very nature. God, God did not consider Goodness gracious it's actually stopped me reading for a minute because my god as opening the Scripture, rather he made himself nothing matters of nothing. So I am a human being. So I am nothing. That's quite brutal, isn't it? But I am everything in him. Because when we talk about this scripture is doing one thing, it is nailing the flesh to the cross cut the flesh is nothing, you said
Simon Pinchbeck:it, but you said it, we are nothing without Christ. But we're everything with him rushed with Christ. So,
Reverend Ben Cooper:so it's obedience and surrender, makes me realize that I am nothing in the flesh, but I am a son and the daughter of the living God, so I am so even child of the living God,
Simon Pinchbeck:if someone comes to, to faith in Jesus Christ, even if you don't, you know, if you just tell them this, go through this one scripture with them, they will understand Jesus and understand who they are in Christ. Exactly. Because it goes on to verse nine says, Therefore, so whenever there's a therfore, in the Bible, you got to make sure that you know what it's there for. So he says, Therefore, God, also as highly exalted Him, and given him the name which is above every name.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So this is this is. So from verse seven, it says, rather being rather he made himself nothing by taking on the very nature of a servant. Yeah, so suddenly, he is this God that said, let there be before any word was spoken, and before the stars in the heaven, before anything, he was just there, Trinity diety then suddenly creation, then suddenly the fall, suddenly this God has got to come and show us redemption through Christ. So suddenly, this big this god humbles himself and becomes nothing, and becomes a servant in the earth. So the opposite to what we know that's happening in ministries, he was a servant became nothing died, being obedient to death on the cross. But then he's been given this name.
Simon Pinchbeck:So this is the Jesus that you've just given your life to. Right? This is the Jesus that you have just accepted into your life as your Lord and Savior is the God of the word, the earth buddies come down as nothing and humble yourself on a cross for you,
Reverend Ben Cooper:for you, for you is come down into this world that he created that was fallen, that is blasphemous, that just wants to tear him and don't believe in him. He created the nonbelievers. He created this, this he put everything into being now he's had to come into the world. He uses Mary as the dressing room to present himself to the world and the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. So this God presents himself to humanity as a child, he grows up in a household. That was why would an all over the place when you look on study that he didn't choose Buckingham Palace, he chose. And a young woman that wasn't married, that was going through everything that Joseph, I'm going to divorce, what's been going on here? Christ chooses all these lowly situations, these low points. But then suddenly, as he is into this world, when he acknowledges the father, it changes everything.
Simon Pinchbeck:And he lets himself be put on a cross for your sin for your sin,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and they're still mocking him as he breathes his laughs and says it Father, forgive them, for they know know what they do. That's it. So this God,
Simon Pinchbeck:thing is he says, he's his lowest, his recent lowest point you've ever
Reverend Ben Cooper:gone from the highest point to the lowest to the lowest point and have all of the spiritual entities as well as the human aspect, staring at him on the cross.
Simon Pinchbeck:And the only one that couldn't stare at him because of our sin is his father.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Father forgive them for they know what they do. And he gave up
Simon Pinchbeck:through separate from the father at that point because of our separation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You can't grow you theologians spent a lifetime studying this cross under separation and, and the not separation, but the separation and the deity and the power and everything. Can you imagine the spiritual atmosphere, let alone the soldiers and the Pharisees and the Sadducees all cheering, even when it starts early won't give us Barabbas then suddenly we have our Lord and the God of creation, on the cross
Simon Pinchbeck:on the cross killing himself.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And because he took his life,
Simon Pinchbeck:and because he was obedient, and because of not my will, but Your will be done, because he went through that, to father give him a name, which is above all names. And Ben, this is, this will get you because that, that that name of Jesus, every knee should bow, every knee will bow, on the earth, under the earth, those in heaven on the earth and all those under the earth And that every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father. Now, what does that word Lord mean? Ben?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, God,
Simon Pinchbeck:every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. What does it mean? It means he is the boss is there is that he is the man is on top man. He's the boss, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:put it in my language. He's the daddy,
Simon Pinchbeck:who's the governor? Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he is. He's the, he's the top cat. He is that. Let me put it in Scripture. He is the great I AM. He is the head of the church. No Pope, no Bishop, no Pastor, no leader, no one is the head of the kingdom of God, Christ. I am the Way the Truth and the Life. So there are people putting themselves higher, that wouldn't even couldn't punch their way out of a spiritual paper bag.
Simon Pinchbeck:But people that won't bear the knee to Jesus,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because of when you bow the knee, you're what you give yourself over. It's not about me,
Simon Pinchbeck:or my will Christians that will not burn and need
Reverend Ben Cooper:to there are leaders there are there are controllers across this platform, a church that will not bow the knee because when you bow the knee, you have to let your ministry go.
Simon Pinchbeck:So Lee, you die. When you bear the knee. You
Reverend Ben Cooper:give him you give him it.
Simon Pinchbeck:You give Him your life and you give them the right side of your life. You give them the right to tell you what you're going to do and enable you
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, I would like to call it like this, if this is if this could be a way of putting this. There are many people in leadership positions that are only in that leadership position, because of their parents was a leaders. And because they got money behind I mean, you can do anything with money. You can do anything with education. So that we we have a church culture, that we have a mass percentage of leaders that have not been called. They have been placed by CVS.
Simon Pinchbeck:Let me ask you this bend. Do you think the church has separated? Jesus the Savior from Jesus, the lordship they have so we want you to be safe but now we're exhausting you were exalt you instead of
Reverend Ben Cooper:God's calling you. And how many times do we see the advert? The spill? How many times you go by these big billboards, we got the pastor and his wife, you know, come to our church, come to our ministry, where is Jesus? Where's the picture across? What you there are certain cultures, certain ministries out there that promote the ones that built the pyramid?
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, well, then that's the serious hobo element. BenBella. But it is the truth because you know what they are worshipping someone else, these people
Reverend Ben Cooper:because everyone likes a little bit harder. Call, you're great. You're, and it goes to your head. It goes to your head and it goes to the flesh. And maybe yeah, maybe so suddenly. When you look, when you look at great ministries, across the globe, it will never exalt that leader. It will always speak about Jesus. Because the leader is what a servant servant. Yeah, we've just read it in the Scripture. You got to humble yourself and become a servant. You've got to be insignificant in the crowd. You can't be looked at and be defined by notoriety. Great leaders clean toilets. Great leaders work ungodly hours without anybody knowing. Great leaders are fighting bears and lions. Great leaders are shepherds. But very interesting. Simon when we talk about David, David was a shepherd. But when you look a shepherd and the Scripture talks about a hired hand a herdsman we have herdsmen in pulpits. They look like a shepherd they carry the same label as the shepherd, but a shepherd really can lead the flock. a hired hand is only in for a while and there are many hired hands that are taken on the label as a shepherd. And they can't Shepherd because they're only hired, are they hired because they got a stipend. They got a church ments. They've got this, they've got that someone left the church, a massive legacy. So there's money in the pot. It's a career. So we have lots of herdsmen. But no shepherd, where are the shepherds. And so,
Simon Pinchbeck:when you've got a situation like that, they're not going to teach this. So then we come back, and they're going to teach this humbleness. They're not going to teach this, every knee, every new bow bow and every tongue confess. And then, and then he goes on Ben, and this will get your speaking and this will get you talking, because he goes on to say this. This is therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed. So he's talking to the Philippians. And, and they obey not, as in my presence only. So he's saying, not only when I'm here for your bait, but how now much more in my absence, or much more in my absence, you still obeying? But he says this to them ben, and he says this, listen to this, he says, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Ben. Oh, and the surfing is we have many churches, coaches ministries are big, I guess that want to do works rather than Yeah. Doing the mission rather than mission driven rather rather than gospel focused. And yeah, I guess there. If I was, if I was to put it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think what we need is the church to come back to foundational doctrines,
Simon Pinchbeck:you're 100% right. So you've got churches that have gone off, and have been mission driven rather than Christ constrained. Do you know what which is back to basics, which is back back to the bat doc doctrine, you you cannot work your way to self. It don't matter. What you do, you can do good works. You can good do good deeds you can go off.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Look at that. One Corinthians, chapter 13. There are many ministries, but they're not driven by what driven by love. People might laugh and snicker at this, but this is fact the scripture says this. Love is patient love is kind it does not envy does not boast is not proud of, it's not rude. But also it tells you this at the beginning of the text. Without love, you can be the most giving person you can give yourself to charity, you can surrender your body to the flames. You can do this, you can do that, but without love. So what is love? God is love. So without God at the center, you can do the most charitable deed across the earth. You can surrender your body to the flames, but without love. It's meaningless. God is love. So without God, and there are many ministries, many churches claimed to have God or to have let me use this word, Jesus, but the Scripture says, there's many Jesus's will come. But there's only one Messiah. And it's about surrender. It's about obedient. It's about oh, gosh, this is a big subject and it really suits so we find ourselves as what Simon said, I am saved. But what now? What ministry? What orphanage? Am I going to go and build this year? Lord, what but I don't want you to build I don't want you over there. Why have you? That
Simon Pinchbeck:is not what this means there isn't work out your salvation does not mean you go out and build a ministry build a ministry and work and work or work No, it means it means like Christ working you work in you and and you work out. You work out your Word of God, you work
Reverend Ben Cooper:you study, you read it
Simon Pinchbeck:is not taught that is it. It's not taught. It's not discipled
Reverend Ben Cooper:now, I think the word discipleship has been misused as an IT. Come on a disciple ship course I need disciple in all day long. I need talking to all day long, come to a 12 week course. Then we throw you out. I'm going to get another live and
Simon Pinchbeck:I'll say this, the bigger the church and we're talking.
Reverend Ben Cooper:The less dangerous and less
Simon Pinchbeck:more dangerous than the less time you have to work out your salvation. Definitely. Great you will be. I used to say all the time when I was looking after men's groups, that the worst churches for Men's Ministry were big churches. Why? Because time is money. I would say to all Pro, the guy that was trying to do it, you'd say, here, but we've got this course this week, and then then they'll be taken off to do that. And they'll be taken off to do this, that and the other
Reverend Ben Cooper:roadmapping they're working. So so there is a there is a planning. And obviously planning is important because God planned God spoke everything into being and there was order and structure. But there comes a time when the planning and the spreadsheet gets put under the desk. The Bible is opened, and we go God, what do you want us to do? There's a big possibility that God will go, close this ministry, and come and follow me. And God, I built it. Exactly. Close. This, finish this.
Simon Pinchbeck:I want you to just delete in your family.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I want you just to be a son, I just want you to want
Simon Pinchbeck:to be a son, I want you Don't you realize that your salvation cannot be achieved through works and it cannot be. None of us are wholly as sanctified
Reverend Ben Cooper:in Yeah, it's quite interesting. There's a big press and it's been a big press out in our culture, church, about prophecy. Almost everywhere is offering prophecy courses, prophecy schools, when you look at the prophecies in the Word of God, their warnings. Prophets were very unusual people. They was like, ostracized. They was like, what he what what? But what we got today is profits and profit Tess's living up the glamorous lifestyle.
Simon Pinchbeck:But in the perfect. Become the pathetic girl. Yes, yeah, yeah. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:how many times I'm tired of that when I've got a word for you. I'm going a minute. I'm trying to listen to Jesus. But you're you're crowding me out with that prophecy. don't line up with that prophecy. So you can have all this stuff. So there's another thing about ministries in there. Come to this course do 12 weeks and will your leave this place with a certificate and you will be a prophet? Hang on.
Simon Pinchbeck:That don't work. Like I don't like that. That doesn't work like that. At all. None of it works like that. And Ben is the deal. You will not find one scripture in this Bible that tells you you can get to heaven through
Reverend Ben Cooper:working. No, you can't build a massive you will navigations you massive ministry,
Simon Pinchbeck:there's loads of scriptures that tell you in the Bible. I will build that you can't do that. You cannot. Yeah, you know. I don't know. Romans 328 2720 is where is boasts in then it is excluded by law of works. No, by the law of faith. Galatians 216 Ephesians, two, eight to nine Titus, reap it all. They're all saying you cannot come yourself salvation through works. Because if you could work, your salvation is the deal. So we say to someone I say to someone, have you ever thought where you go when you die? What happens to you? Well, I'm a good person, I think I'll go to heaven. You know, I you know, I look after dogs and pets. And I've looked after my family and all that I'm the one at the shack. I put out a chip put a flower so I'll do this. If that is the case, if you could go to heaven through that then then God the Father made the biggest mistake in the history by putting his Son on the cross. Yeah, if that is the case, yeah. And it's not the case. It's not like as you cannot work your salvation. You have to accept Jesus Christ and do what it says. Yeah, humble yourself. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. And I'm gonna use a name here. Not because he's on the other side of the desk. But there was a conversation in in the Bible between a young man and the Messiah. And he said, Simon, Simon Do you love me? Yes, Lord. I'll die for you. Simon Simon, do you? Do you really? God you know, I do. But when the rooster crows when the rubber hits the road, when when life comes in like a flood, when the enemy's chasing you down and when your towels on the line. But Lord, I'll die. I'll fight for you. I'll go to prison, Lord, I will. I will. I will. Lip service doesn't tie in the arena of real life. When the girl sees him sitting around the fire bin and goes you're a believer. We've seen you know, not me, denying Christ. There is so much to get out of this. If the church the broad brush of the church and forgive me for those that are bringing great teachings to the Okay, and may God bless you in your ministries. But this, you won't even be affected by what we're saying. Because it is the only ones that have been affected that are building their own church, or start to spit back at us. And those that are really pressing the gospel will go, yeah, praise God. It's all about Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:This is the danger of being with with these mission driven churches, the churches that have grown very large on the back of social justice, which say, we're going out to feed the poor, we're going out to, we're going to have to change lives. Ben, to be honest with you, you know, unless you've given them the gospel, you wouldn't believe so this you can take a minute, William Booth, the fan of Salvation Army said this, you can take a man out of the gutter, you can feed him clothing, give him a chop and send him to hell. And that's what will happen. And I shall give him unless you're with these mission driven churches, unless you're actually giving people the gospel. You're, you're in a position where you might make their lives a little bit easier, but you're going to end up in hell. The gospel has to be
Reverend Ben Cooper:sharper, sharper than a double edged sword. He's come to judge, he's come. I haven't come to bring peace who said that? Jesus, I've come to bring a sword or come to divide
Simon Pinchbeck:this division pen I hear it all the time. Oh, my wife went out with a church to They've made their bake something for the for the organic. Mmm, great, you know, but they're great. And I'm sure that's wonderful. But unless you've given them the gospel, unless you're bringing them into the kingdom, then then then you're just as you could be just any other organized person organization, just giving out. A mate of mine had a few quid blessing these past now down in London said to me, I had a little fan at the time. He said to me, Simon, he said, a board out a sleeping bag. So I want to go out and give him to the homeless. He has said is I said would you come down with your furnace? Yeah, Derek, he will. So I went down to Sloane square where he's obvious were part of this van that was sleeping bags. And we went round, given these bags. And I knew a few of these. I'd recognize them. I knew a few of these homeless people because they hang around the church a little bit early. And a couple of weeks later, I said they still got a sleeping bag. Oh no, Mate i sold it
Reverend Ben Cooper:it. I sold it and bought some puff
Simon Pinchbeck:well, just sitting back or someone nicked it. We had a fight over it
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So if you give the gospel, the gospel will change that person. You have to give you have to give you the gospel of Jesus Christ,
Simon Pinchbeck:you have hit the nail on the head solely to give
Reverend Ben Cooper:clean, sound clear doctrine, but we are frightened in the hashtag of the UK to give the gospel because we don't want to upset anybody. Don't tell them they're a sinner. Don't tell them that you can't live that lifestyle anymore because we need the pound sign.
Simon Pinchbeck:Jesus Christ, we've spoken a great day. And this is the God that came down and humbled Himself that they did not come to, to, to cure poverty. He didn't come to cure public came
Reverend Ben Cooper:to seek and to save that which was lost. He came
Simon Pinchbeck:to change the hearts of men. See if you change the hearts of men and you put Jesus inside of them, then all that's poverty stuff
Reverend Ben Cooper:will change will change Saiki first kingdom of God first the kingdom of God God has to be first. Not mission. No, no mission God has to be first God is the one that saved God. So So preaching the gospel, what we need what I would love to see across across this nation is preachers and teachers preaching fire, literally fire telling me that if I don't change my lifestyle, you know, telling me I gotta live right telling me speaking directly into my heart not telling me that next time next week, we'll have five grand in your bank account. I want to know that if I don't sort my life out. If I don't follow this Christ, if I don't make these changes if I don't let him in. If I don't surrender, there's trouble not trouble from the devil. The rough of God. His Holiness is power. Whoa, whoa, I ain't gotta worry about the devil. I've just got to understand what Simon said work at your salvation with fear and trembling. That's all you got to worry about. Don't worry about Lucifer is his chicken feed to what's really coming
Simon Pinchbeck:to what's really coming. Yeah, this this guy Jesus, who every time will confess and every knee will bow
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. The church has been coming back a fluffy Jesus he's
Simon Pinchbeck:been he's coming back but he's not coming back to save is coming back back for judgment and when he sits across from you and those red eyes or burn into you,
Reverend Ben Cooper:oh gold. Oh,
Simon Pinchbeck:Lord. You know, where were you? Well, you know, I thought about you Jesus, but you know, but you On My Mind, on your, on your mind,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's quite interesting, isn't it? You're you separated
Simon Pinchbeck:you when you accepted Him as your Lord and Savior he separated you for the Kingdom. And, and your mission then is to advance the kingdom. Yeah, through Christ in you Yeah, not advance your own kingdom
Reverend Ben Cooper:quite interested in it if all the denominations preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, there won't be denominations with there because everyone says we're the church. We are, we are the Church of England we are the Pentecostal movement we are there are many naming and claiming, but not many preaching. You can give the lip surface. But are you really preaching doctrines of grace? Are you really preaching? You know, fire Are you really you know that? God Lord, I ask your father now, Lord, that for anyone that says that they are a preacher or a teacher or whatever leadership, they're in, please, I want you got to strip me back. Because this is I'm going to say I'm frightened. I'm not frightened of what this world is happening. I'm not fearful of what is happening around the world. I'm not fearful of the devil anymore, because God has really stripped me back through lockdown, and really showed me that the devil is under my feet. I don't need to talk about it anymore. Don't even go into a prayer mate for 24 hours fasting and prayer and getting the devil to get him off me towel. I've just got to make sure that I know my God. Because there's a judgment they come in an Asian name stamped in a Lamb's book of life. You won't get a brain blame Lucifer. I chased him all around the world. I chase Lucifer everywhere. But do you know me?
Simon Pinchbeck:Do you know me?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Do you know me? Yes, Lord. Philip said chose the Father and Christ when I'm standing before your son. But shot. I'm here. But Shabbos Simon, how are we going to? Are we gonna learn this one? I don't
Simon Pinchbeck:know. My friends said to you, you certainly need to know. Use the Word of God. That is the truth. Matthew 722 said many will come in My name. But I'll turn them away. Because I'll say you never know me. And I would say get to know. Seek the seek God's face. Yeah. Through His Son Jesus Christ. Seek Jesus and let Jesus grow inside of you. And don't seek big ministry, fancy ministry titles. Where have you got to work out your salvation in fear and trembling, aware of where you are. Wherever you are, in your home, your next door neighbor in your street in every way you are, you can have a go for Jesus seriously. That's where you work it. That's where you show the world who Jesus Christ is exactly where you are in your town, your village, your city, your street. Wow. Yeah, start with the person next to you. That's what I'd say.
Reverend Ben Cooper:God bless everybody. Thank you, Simon. You've been listening to us here at #Christian straight talk. You can find the book on Amazon. The first one is out #Christian straight talk. And it is men's talk. But it fits the sisters as well. And the women just
Simon Pinchbeck:want to say one point on just go firm. A guy bought a book the other day and said he gave it to his wife and his wife said I understand you a lot more now through reading this book.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right God, there you go. Grab the book,#Christian straight talk. You can find that straight talk straight talk. Sorry. You can find it on Amazon easy to find easy read simple, but powerful book not because it's about us but because it's about Jesus. Amen. It's all about Jesus. Have a great day wherever you are across this beautiful earth. Do not worry about the world do not worry about what is going on around the world just as Simon said and as well as more than what Simon said is as the scripture said, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. We will catch you very very soon in Jesus name. Have a great day. Remember, you are saved. But what next?