Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:23

Hello and welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today wherever you are across the beautiful earth for the Lord, this is the day that the Lord has made we shall rejoice and be glad you're joining us here you're joining myself, Ben Cooper and we have our brother, Steve valla Bible teacher with us today is going to take us through the word of God. Really interesting title, our true vicar, I wonder who he's speaking about. Our brother is gonna lead us through the word of God as he always does. And we just want to say thank you so much to everybody for sharing all the stuff that goes out through the podcast and everything on the social platforms. Thank you so much, may God bless you and strengthen you. And as we always say, you can find us on I Heart Radio, Buzzsprout, Spotify, and many other social platforms, Amazon music, and many, many more, we say thank you from the bottom of our heart for sharing everything out. Now we have Steve that's going to take us through the next 3545 minutes as he teaches as he brings the Word of God across the mics to you wherever you may be. And we thank you for all your feedback. So Steve, welcome my brother.

Steve: 1:29

Good afternoon, everyone.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:30

We're back in the hot seat, you're back in the chair. Let's see what the Lord has for us through the Holy Word of God.

Steve: 1:38

Right. Jesus, our high priest, and our vicar, the one who is our substitute the one who takes our place substitutionary atonement, or vicarious atonement, however you want to put it vicarious kind of read from Matthew and also from Isaiah. So Matthew five first of all, 1720 Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one job, or one till by no means will pass from the law to all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Amen. Well, I say to you that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. And I'm going to read the whole of Isaiah 53. It's only 12 verses, who has believed our report and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he shall grant before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no formal communists and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we here as it were our faces from him. He was despised, and we did not esteem him. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows that were steamed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted, but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, by his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened his mouth, he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before it shares his silence, so he opened his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare his generation for he was cut off from the land with a living for the transgressions of my people, he was stricken. And I might hear his grave with the wicked with rich his death, because he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth, that it pleased the Lord to bruise him. He has put Him to grief. When you see what sorry, when you make his soul and offering the sin, He shall see his seed he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see the labor of his soul and be satisfied. By His knowledge, my righteous servant shall justify money, for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great and he shall divide the spoils strong, because he poured out his soul on to death, and he was numbered with the transgressors and he bought a sinner many and made intercession for the transgressors. Wow, what

Reverend Ben Cooper: 4:48

a reading Isaiah 54 is, that really is a strong reading. Nothing in his appearance was attractive in any way shape. awful, really, really hits me hard that reading this really strong read. Right? Where are we?

Steve: 5:11

The evangelize? Yeah, seriously. One needs to teach the law. You can't evangelize in truth without teaching the law. Because you're trying to teach people something for which you give them no grounding, right? It's all very well saying, you know, you've sinned and you've done and you've lied, and you've done this, and Jesus died for you, but you need. The church needs to understand that the law whilst we are not under the law, because of the grace of God, the law still stands. Yes. And every person in the world is under the condemnation of the law. You're either under condemnation, or you are freed by the blood of Christ and stain in the grace of God in Christ. Yeah, that's it simple. Whilst the 613 laws are unable to be worked out, from a Levitical point of view, it doesn't take away the fact that the law still stands. Yeah. The way it's outworked is in Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:24

he's the fulfillment, fulfillment of the law, the atoning sacrifice, yeah,

Steve: 6:29

everything in him. And as the Isaiah quote here says that, he bought our iniquities He bore our sins, the punish the punishment that was ours was put on. Now, this has led people to sign the most astonishing and stupid statements I've ever heard people like Steve Jobs. So the the sacrificial atonement was the the most the greatest act of child abuse ever. What? Yeah, they came out with this, that that because of what God did on his son, if we see it in the way that it, it's classically portrayed, that He bore our sins and our iniquities, God crushed him, it pleased him to crush him, then it is the greatest act of child abuse. That's it there's ever been, which you'll have to ask the question, Well, excuse me, Mr. Joffe. But don't you realize that Jesus is God with his father with the Holy Spirit. And this was an agreement in the Godhead before the foundation of time that this is what was going to happen? This wasn't something that popped into the mind of the father, and grandfather, the Son, this is the stupid this

Reverend Ben Cooper: 7:45

is the stupid so we have Christ at third, what 33 years old, being subjected to child abuse by the god the man, what is what is even there that comes the question is what are you actually believing in? Yes. What are you really believing? If you believe how can you poll such a ridiculous statement from such from the cross?

Steve: 8:12

Well, you've got other observations as well, Charles Finney came up with this idea that he didn't look, we don't inherit the sin of Adam. Right. Okay. But we bear our own sin. Okay, ignoring the fact that it says in Adam died and in Christ or shall live. He came up with this idea that it wouldn't be a disgraceful thing for God, to blame us for what Adam did. Wow. Finally, I think that we were in Adams lines at the time here. And there. If we look at Melchizedek when it talks about Melchizedek in Hebrews, and it talks about how it was that when Abraham gave the offering to Melchizedek, Levi was in the loins Yes. And in his own way, it was making an obligation to Melchizedek so this inheritance is if you ignore certain parts of the script, will you take your own particular

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:15

you come up with you can come up with some crazy stuff. Oh, God, I got a laugh, but I'm just,

Steve: 9:21

you know, it is it's the idea. You know, I'm a sinner because a sin is wrong. I sin because I'm a sinner. That's it, you know? I mean, you look at kids when they're about two or three you teach them how to be No, you don't they know how to do it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:37

They're good. Yeah, good at it. So

Steve: 9:41

this is this idea that this the fall in Adam, How disgraceful that God should blame Saul for what Adam did

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:51

it man is always trying to supersede isn't a man. He's always trying to come up with a an answer that says What a load of junk that sat there, God. And so

Steve: 10:01

we look at this atonement of Christ offers us in his death that he atones for our sins that he atones for our iniquities, that we are freed by our faith and trust in Him, we have to understand that it's not just his death in which we trust, but it's his life. This is life, isn't it? He lived the perfect life. Yeah, yeah. He, there was no sin found in him. Which means he did means he didn't break the law of God. perfect in every way, perfect in every way, even though he was tempted in every part. He never broke the law of God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:49

And people don't know that, to say that Christ was tempted in every way.

Steve: 10:54

Well, yes, that temptation isn't sin. It's what you do with it's just what you do, isn't it is your action. I mean, the very fact that the I mean, when the devil pitches up. The only recorded at the time of when the devil is there, although we understand it, it is there are other times and he has these three temptations. And Jesus deals with these three temptations. And in one of the Gospels, he said, The Insight lifting for a more opportune offering till an opportunity. And one I was opportune moments, I think, is when the penny dropped when Christ was on the cross. In one of Paul's letters, it says, if the rulers of this age had known what they were doing, they would not have crucified the Son of God. Yeah. And I, we spoken about this. And there's a sense whereby Satan's eyes are closed to certain things in secret. Yes. Yeah. He doesn't know or people think he does know, he's really clever, very clever, away from him. He's extremely clever, extremely powerful, but he does not know it all. God is good. He can't read your mind for

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:12

its notes. He can't do that.

Steve: 12:14

And so when we see Christ being crucified, all you all he was expecting, I think, was that Christ was going to be stoned.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:26

Yeah, yes. The

Steve: 12:29

death penalty for blasphemy, which is what they charged him for, was to be stoned. I mean, it was very strange that if you consider the fact that the Pharisees made a big hoo ha, about we can't crucify Jesus, our Lord doesn't allow it. Couple of months down the road, this stoning Stephen

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:49

Stephens gone.

Steve: 12:51

You can't do it there, but you can do it there. This is the this is where the, the realm of God, the kingdom of God begins to work, that my son will die, but he will die in a particular fashion

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:05

in my chosen a mile away

Steve: 13:06

my choosing my why, yep. And no bone was broken. That he poured out his life blood than a neck in itself is there's a lot of teaching that can go into that area of we know that there is life in the blood and you will not drink of the blood. And the outpouring of the blood is very important. The blood of the outpouring of Christ's blood is very, very important. Yes, extremely important. One of the reasons it's important is because it's living blood, everybody else who dies. The blood is dead. Yes. But when Christ died, he poured out living blood and the mystery of the blood is is a mystery. It's a mystery. Yeah. There are some been a fascination, isn't it? Well, there are some other years. There were some people that speculate that. And I've heard this talk in various ways that the Ark of the Covenant, which had got lost, and nobody knew where it knew where it was, was actually in a chamber underneath underneath. Golgotha. Yep. And he's blood, found ya through and fell on the mercy seat. Now, whether it's true or not, I don't know. But it's the blood that makes the atonement. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:21

So we can't get away from the fact that the scripture says there is life in the blood. And the blood is the atonement. That's correct, isn't it? He pulls out his life force. Yeah, he pulls it out. He is in charge. He pours it

Steve: 14:36

and then he threw a spanner in the works when he said you you got to drink my blood and he would flush vampires we were told him Yeah, we told him the commands don't we can't drink blood. Yes, we can't drink it. Yeah. Even when the the non Jews yet kind to realization of Christ. They were instructed from Jerusalem, we put no instruction. We don't eat anything that's strangled and don't eat blood. Yeah, so blood is very, very important. But of course we know that it's it's the spirit. Word, it's the spirit, we don't actually go around drinking bottles of blood, which, which lots of Christians would I mean, that's, that's what I think Nero Nero Yeah, he cooked that one up. That's why he was able to, you know, they're cannibals. They're eaten kids and all the rest of it. And so this area of the blood is very, very important.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:35

Yeah, such as its genesis in it says life in the blood. So there had to be a blood sacrifice all the way through it. And now that the Scripture makes it very clear that the blood is like the blood will be a sign. Yes. Above the above the door post above the windows above the lintel of your house, the blood will be a sign. Yeah. And each

Steve: 15:58

if you look at the accumulation of sacrifices in the old test, yep. They all point towards Jesus but in in different ways. Yeah. For instance, this the idea of the lintel, you know, the blood over the insulin and on the doorpost, where the destroyer will pass over. And it's saying, anyone who is under the covering of this blood cannot be touched for destruction. Praise God. And we find that echoed when Jesus says, You have passed from judgment to life to life, he talks to his disciples that we, under that covering of the blood have passed. Away, we've moved away from joint destruction cannot come upon us, because we are seem to be under the covering of the blood of Christ. If we look at the burnt offering, we know that the burnt offering was made by Abraham. Now the burn offering the I can't remember the Hebrew word, but it actually means to send one of its meanings is to ascend. Wow. So it was important that Christ send it

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:23

a sacrifice that ascended,

Steve: 17:25

he ascended and so is he he, and the burn offering when it ascended, was a sweet aroma in the nostrils of God. And yeah, Christ in His ascension is a sweet aroma in the nostrils. And afterwards, we've got

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:37

the older no go so beautifully together. You can't separate the old and then New Testament Kenya.

Steve: 17:43

And then we look at obviously, the RAM in a second. Yeah, yeah, we see that God is going to supply Yes. You know, the other thing that Abraham would have sacrificed his son because he believed that he could rise him from the dead. But all these things.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:01

They're all runners. Yeah, yeah, they're all runners across.

Steve: 18:05

That's it. And then we look at the Levitical 613 laws, I don't know how many would get the death penalty. But mainly the death penalty was stone or burned. And if we look at the animals that were sliding these sacrifices, every single one had to be perfect. Absolutely perfect, without blemish that blemish. But at the moment, they say that they're breeding the red heifer for the return of the temple sacrifices. And this heifer. You've got rabbis going over and with a fine tooth comb to check out to make sure that you know it's this okay read or it's a heifer Fair enough. We got and they go over it with a fine tooth comb, and to declare whether or not it's worthy worthy of sacrifice goodness. And so they're very, they were very, very nice. When you start looking at some of the Minor Prophets, that they they will bring the hope and the light but initially, it was bringing

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:32

you the best of the flock the best. There was the best there was the flock most of the herd.

Steve: 19:39

And so this of course, we look at that. Jesus, perfect in all these ways. perfect sacrifice. He lived a perfect life. Yeah. died a death, which he did not deserve. And because of that, he was the perfect safety guy. ate the perfect sacrifice the lamb that was sliding sliding. The other aspect of the grain offering for instance, the grain offering if it was grain offering for the first fruits that the heads had to be beaten out from a green heads and we beat now

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:26

very violent and

Steve: 20:27

yes, again it

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:30

is a beating and he's our first fruit it is our first fruit. Isn't it amazing how you look at all this and that? There is there is a connection always together, right? Oh, yeah. Unbelievable book. Yeah, well, not a you know.

Steve: 20:43

Yeah. And then if we look at the rest of the grain offering Carrie it all comes together. It was it was the finest flour. Yeah, kind of flour that will be served a kings table. Yeah, there was no blemish in it whatsoever. Now towards the finest of flour. It will be mixed with olive oil. And olive oil will seem to be the cleanest the brightest burning, the longest lasting oil. There was at that time. So the olive oil again, it the brightest burning. It's just amazing. It brings light

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:21

is so powerful. These analogies that the, the the I don't even like his word symbolism. But these were, they are symbols at night, they are symbols without lifting it up in that in that realm,

Steve: 21:34

then we look at everything has to be saved with salt as well, you can't you've got to always have soap in these sacrifices. And so the other aspect of that is that you have frankincense has to go in the groin. The Frankincense is very, very expensive, extremely expensive. And that grind offering was seen to be a thanksgiving to God for all his blessings, and all his provision. So we come back again to Christ. All the provision that God has given us,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:18

it's just mind blowing, that all this has happened and spoken about and used before. But it's obviously been written by God for God about God. So it is going to tally up and right correct, isn't it but when you really analyze it, and you really dig deep into it, the symbolism lines up with Christ the lamb the grain offering the the oil, the atonement when you when you bring it all together. It's not a book of ban, known as a supernatural. When you use word supernatural, of course.

Steve: 22:52

We have to be supernatural.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:54

What What I mean by that? Is there certain transatlantic friends I use the word supernatural for oh, I can use. So I've tried to be really careful the last few weeks about wording because we've done that biblical language.

Steve: 23:09

Yeah, I mean, but it's, yeah, God is supernatural. Her book is supernatural. The other sacrifice is on the Day of Atonement. When we had the two goats, the two goats yet. One, they cast lots for the goats. There we go. They cast a lot cast lots, we go again, a cast lots for the goat and the lot upon whom the goat fell for the sin offering was put to one side, and the lot upon whom the lot fell upon the goat. That was to be the scapegoat. Yeah, he was put over there. So they took the goat sacrificed it as a sin offering. Yeah. Then the high priest or Levi in the original. First Skype God the first overtime, he lays his hands on the goat confesses all of Israel's sins. And in so doing, the sin is transferred onto the go.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:13

Goodness, this is

Steve: 24:15

seem transferred on the go. And then it's sent out into the wilderness

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:19

of load. This is too big for me. And so that's where we had the terminology this, the Skype guys can't go, that person isn't a scapegoat.

Steve: 24:30

And the scapegoat was sent out into the wilderness. And the idea was that it would die a terrible death out there in the wilderness. There I've tried to check this out whether there's any truth in it, I don't know. But they say that on the year that Jesus died, the scapegoat came back. Really? Yeah. I mean, I tried to find out I don't know. But the idea of course is that It told the Jews that sorry, we stopped that we don't do that anyway. You've got Skype going, he was hanging all across and you missed it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:12

So, because that Scripture as well, isn't it that they took him outside the city? Yes. And they hadn't and they crucified him outside? Yes. And the goat was outside. Yeah. It's when you bring all this together, it's fascinating to the mind, how all this comes together. How it all fit perfectly, is that it can't be the writings of a human being.

Steve: 25:36

And that's why I mean, we've only just discussed really some of the sacrifices within the law. But you if you start numbering the there are first Scottish Rite there are. The whole of the commandments are called the MIT MIT MIT makes a single command is

Reverend Ben Cooper: 26:02

I can't pronounce it now.

Steve: 26:05

You've got 365. Negative, and whatever else is positive or taller way around. It's what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Yeah, the opposite. Yeah, like they, they can't Yeah, yeah, if you do this, you got to do that. If you do this, you got to do that. You shouldn't do this. You can do it. You got to do that. Yeah. And if you look at the the strictures within the law, yeah. It is very, very detailed, extremely detailed. And the number of laws, which if you break them, you are to die. Now, the one that comes to mind is if we remember Paul, when he wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, he says, There is something going on there which doesn't even go on amongst the pagans. You have a man who has his father's wife, right? Yes. Now many people saw that was his stepmother who was his stepmother. In actual fact, if you go back into the Old Testament and read the statement, the statement there is if someone has his father's wife is to die, then they're looking at it's not his stepmother. It's his mother. Is his mother innocent? Yeah, it's because if you ever look at the wife tabulated, yeah, you you you must sleep with your sister. You mustn't sleep you don't you must sleep. We are talking about the blood family. And it's the blood family. You do this? Because what had gone on before? Yeah, it can't stop. If you remember Abraham. Sarah was declared to be your sister. There was an involvement. Yeah. Within There Was You can't escape that. No. But when God brought in the law, yeah. Now we have, we're moving into a different timeframe different. What God is now doing is revealing his holiness in his law. Yeah. This is another reason why the law has to be taught. It's as you read the law, you realize, you cannot attain, know these things. All right. Paul makes it very clear that no man is justified by the works of the law. During that period of time, the Jews themselves would have probably taken umbrage. But Paul, so now we know that we know that it's by faith. It's always been by Faith, if we go back to Abraham, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as right as righteousness. When a man went to the tent and offered up his sacrifice. It wasn't so much that you had faith in the sacrifice he had fighting God to forgive him. Because God was gracious, yep. And accepted the sacrifice that he has given. And he would have been, he would have had to have been repentant, it wouldn't have been a case of hang on flow. I'm just gonna go down and sacrifice a goat because I've done something wrong yesterday, you know? There had to be repentance. There had to be fighting God for forgiveness. Did it wasn't the blood of bulls and goats will be it we entered. We enter into that covenant at that time, but it's the forgiveness of God. And it's only lighter as things begin to deteriorate within Judaism, that there is this as a side, the hole in the line, they'll bring you know, God says in one of the prophets, you know, you You try serving your masters title and CFR you get, but you bring it to me. Yeah, yeah. You bring it to me. Soft blind or it's crippled. You think that? Yeah. And it shows that they had no faith in God. They had no love. No respect. No trust. Yeah. And I just turned up

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:20

are at it that though that developer that same sort of attitude, we've got lot today, yeah, that'll do.

Steve: 30:27

Whereas you cannot escape the area of mercy. And Grace.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:35

Do you think you can bring we can maybe bring a little bit of holiness so holy?

Steve: 30:41

Oh, very much. Let's let's do that. That's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:42

the point. Isn't it? Read the law and you read the holiness that that what you're bringing to me is nothing. No, you cannot touch it. I am holy. Holy.

Steve: 30:56

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, she had to go through a time of cleansing. Yeah. This is very strange. Yeah, it's very strong.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:06

I've got a feeling out. You're gonna say?

Steve: 31:10

Would you tell because I hadn't gotten. But it's very strange that here you have here, Mary. Yes. Giving birth to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:19

the holy, the Holy One.

Steve: 31:21

But still, she has to go through a period of cleansing. Yeah, very strange. But this is in the law. The law had to be fulfilled.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:30

Right up until the birth or until the director the death right up to the death, isn't it? So Mary goes through this process carrying the most holy of holy of holies. But the physical had to go through the cleansing? Yeah. And

Steve: 31:47

when Christ is it seven days old? I think it's seven days old. He goes up and he is circumcised. Yeah. So he has to go through that. If you look at the sacrifices if you just try and picture this, you've got to accuse people.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:10

Yep. And they're bringing

Steve: 32:12

up lambs, goats. heifers, as they are coming up for sacrifice. Hundreds and hundreds of animals. Hundreds. Yeah. Imagine the noise of the animals. They know what's going on an animal? No, they say no. So you can imagine the terror in the hearts of those animals. Yeah. The stench of our blood being poured out.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:44

And the continuation of it. The mess. The actual mess that this would,

Steve: 32:50

yes. And it's in many ways it's supposed to convey to the people. This is what your sin looks like. The mess. This is your this is this is the result of your sin. death, destruction, the outpouring of blood, the terrorizing of animals. Look at it. Look at it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:12

When you when you really when you really unpack that the terrorizing of the animals. Yes. The noise, the senses, the the way that animals communicate that humans can't understand the terror that was going all the way through it. The noise the hustle the bustle.

Steve: 33:28

I mean, we read it and go. Yeah, that's right. Just cut this off and

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:33

the other, but the blood must have been just, Oh, it must have been like the worst butchers on Earth. The noise. And it's quite interesting. The church don't talk about all this does it? But it's actually pretty

Steve: 33:50

good. This is why the law should be taught. Because you get rattled because it explains the holiness of God or reveals the holiness of God. It reveals the terrible consequences of our sin. Yeah. Even just to the animal kingdom alone. Now, it's like that, and this has been transferred on to the Son of God. We have no idea what he suffered on that cross. All right,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:22

we don't we read the script. flippantly easy. Well, I'm gonna and they crucified Him.

Steve: 34:28

We don't know what he went through. We don't know what the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:32

anguish does not dry on the stress of not it's can't get there.

Steve: 34:38

But if we look back at what's going on with the animal sacrifices, the noise the stench, the blood. It's, you know, it's supposed

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:52

to get at you you're supposed to is is getting at me, you're supposed to be moved by this. And if we do smell of death, the smell of rotting flesh, the smell of the sacrum?

Steve: 35:06

Well, then you've got the burn off, got the burn off rent that's going up, you've got the smell of burnt flesh.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:13

It's absolutely brutal. This is very brutal. And that is the cost of Calvary, the brutality mentality of the cross of Calvary. Yes. But in the in all the staff all the churches staff, The Passion of the Christ, it's It's nothing really like it is it, it's all dramatized. It's all theatrical performing. But when you talk about the the Old Testament sacrificing of the animals, and you get a picture of that, and you start to get a bit of a bigger understanding of the area that would have took the amount the the uncountable liters of blood that they just, were going to do with it. Where's it gone? It's just everywhere. It's the price my oh, gosh, when you really get a grip of it, you think why is all this?

Steve: 35:59

Yes. And the idea is it's supposed to get at you. And if we don't teach the law, then we cannot teach Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:09

So the law is key. Well, yes,

Steve: 36:11

Well yes you can't I mean, really were chairman said, We've got to unhitch from the Old Testament means of media.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:17

You're the second one that said remark. Well, I already we know this already. But you're the second one today that said that Andy Stanley, can't believe what you're telling me another second one today, one this morning that Steve was saying that? And we know that that he said, Let's unhitch with the Old Testament is irrelevant. is gone. We don't need it isn't idiot. I'm sorry. How can you how can you separate that? You can't you cannot you can't separate

Steve: 36:42

Jesus walked on the earth. There wasn't a New Testament written. He was the New Testament as he walked. He was fulfilling fulfill in the eyes already turn around a city, Matthew, If you don't teach, and don't keep the law. If you're in it, you're the least in the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. How do we keep the Lord we trust in him? Yeah, he keeps the law. He lived a perfect life. He was the perfect sacrifice. And we trust in his life and his death. We trust in His ascension. It's very important. The Ascension is often you know, always going back on See he's dead. But the point about the assumption was that was reflective of the bone offering. He was a sweet aroma in the nostrils of God. This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:28

Yeah. So yeah. So all got you can't you can't we know the old come first. But you can't have one without the other now? Because to trace Yeah, to even think it

Steve: 37:40

Especially when you consider the, you know, the apostles in the first century. That's where they taught

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:47

thats all they had,

Steve: 37:48

you know Paul started writing letters 4445, up to when he was beheaded in 66.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:54

And they're right in the New Testament, they're writing, but they're preaching it and they're coming out. It's all they had isn't this. So they are like preaching

Steve: 38:01

that they're teaching people about the law. They're teaching people about the holiness of God is teaching about the demands of God upon people.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:09

It's a very simple but very basic, biblical truth. Because obviously, now we've got both we've got the New Testament, but when Paul was writing, and all this was happening, they didn't have what we got. No. So they they was they was writing the know, as it came along. And

Steve: 38:25

if you look at these, if you look at the letters, they are admonishments, they are not structured, yet they are pointing towards our place in Christ and what Christ has done for us. The only time that it you start then looking back at the Old Testament, because they didn't need to rewrite what they'd already taught, was Hebrews when the author to the Hebrews was telling the Jews you can't play ducks and Drakes with this, you've got to make up your mind. And then you've got the prophecies of of John, looking forward to the revelation of Jesus Christ, and also where Paul is talking to Timothy. We are now in the these last days, we know what's happening. We know what's going on. But you seriously, every church should teach the law. And if you're an evangelist, you really are an evangelist, you should teach the law

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:32

because when you teach the Old Testament, it concretes it gives a gives a stronger foundation for what is in the know. It's pretty obvious, isn't it? But how many like Steve is saying how many churches and denominations out there? Don't even go into it? No, I can't actually remember when I've heard what you're bringing to the table, a clean, clear and a long teaching on the law. Yeah,

Steve: 40:00

I mean only touching it you were the 10 commandments or 613 laws. That's right. Okay. Now, when the rabbi's came along, that's the Torah. That's why I wrote the Talmud, which is goes on forever. And they, and they're interpreting this and interpreting that whether they're right or wrong is no, that's not the point. But the whole aspects of this of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It's very heavy,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:31

but it's needed.

Steve: 40:32

Oh yes, I'm not I'm not saying

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:35

it's heavy.

Steve: 40:36

The weight of the war? Yeah. You know, yes. The white. Yes. And if you don't teach that white if you don't teach it, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:45

you haven't got the strength. It's like creation, isn't it? How many people don't teach and look at Genesis, and they haven't got a clear understanding on on the creation of heaven and earth and the way God spoke. And now you can see why there's so much wishy washy floppiness within the church here, because it's all God is love. I mean, but there's no fundamental.

Steve: 41:10

If you look on Facebook, you get these people put in you just get out there and tell people about Jesus. What what are you going to tell them?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:19

I'm just going to turn back. Yeah, but what Jesus

Steve: 41:22

is saying is we might have you got two or three hours because I need to explain the law of God to you. When Paul was teaching, he was going into the synagogues. I was telling them in the synagogues. This is in our writings, and this is the Christ who has fulfilled it. This is our Messiah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:40

That's correct. He was they was coming from that is quite interesting that now we have the New Testament, the church just seems to stay in the New Testament. Yes. And pushes aside, as Mr. Stanley says, we don't need but you need the old, you can't or don't even like to say it, you need the old as much as know the nose. Because it all goes together. It fits, it fits,

Steve: 42:04

and you have to teach it correctly.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:07

Now that that is a gift in on its own, isn't it? Yeah, the interpreter and the only way that can be interpretated is through the power of God. Given that interpretation,

Steve: 42:17

I mean, if you look at some of the great Bible teachers of the past two 300 years, yeah. They at times have made a pig's breakfast of it because they've ended up replacing Israel with the Church of God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:30

Replacement Theology. Yes. dilator. Yeah, that's a balmy one. And instead

Steve: 42:35

of looking at the white of, I mean, one of the reason if we go back to the beginning, when God begins his work through Adam, yeah, in the creation, we find he goes through a time of talking with Adam building relationship. Adam falls, but God does not dismiss him. He still has this aspect. There's this strange encounter, where kind kills his brother. Yeah, but when kind cries out while he's me, if anybody finds out, they're gonna kill me. God puts a mark on him to protect him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:21

Very true.

Steve: 43:22

That's very strange. That is very, very strange. Call you've opened up. Because, you know, kind cries out to God, right. You know, I've killed you. The ground is cursed because of you

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:38

because of you. The ground is cursed. When it refers to the ground. It's referring to the earth. Yeah, because Cain

Steve: 43:45

is a tiller of the earth. Yes. Okay. Colonists are of the earth will Yeah, another day. But this growth, of understanding of God as He imparts to the people at that time, grows steadily. He deals with individuals, no. Enoch, to various people up to Abraham, Abraham. He's not Jew.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:20

It don't, oh, gosh, this is like stretching, how can you get that?

Steve: 44:33

But if you look at this, if you look at the building up of this relationship that God has with mankind, yeah. If you tried to dismiss the Old Testament, you are the most foolish of men. Because you have to look at this. And this development, this development of God with man, and when he chooses, Abraham, he knows that through Why you bruh? Ham comes Isaac, from Isaac, Jacob, and from Jacob the 12 tribes of Israel 12. And he chooses to use this small rice of people to reveal his holiness that they should have then taken it out to the nations. That was part of their responsibility. Is is gone. Just to go to Israel Now surely is the God of the whole earth. Yeah. And that was the point that they were supposed to go out and evangelize the God of the whole earth. Yeah, they didn't do it. They did. For various reasons. There's no point in going into that now. And so we go through this business of the Jewish people rising and falling,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:54

continuous drives for rise falls. That's quite refreshing, because that reflects me. rise, fall. Rise. Thank you, Jesus. Forgive me, Lord, for Lord. Thank you. So it's very, so when you look at the old, you will always you will draw a lot of comfort from looking

Steve: 46:15

at the curves. You don't take too long foot and say, I will actually what I can do that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:18

thats alright, they've done that.

Steve: 46:21

So, but it

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:23

makes you realize there's no one perfect but Christ.

Steve: 46:26

Oh, no, no, no. I'm not. Again, can I train for that system? Yeah. You know that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:32

you know, that?

Steve: 46:34

You know? And you I mean, at that time, there must have been periods of time. I mean, God writes in there about, if you kill an animal, and you don't bring it to the Tent of Meeting, you are guilty of the blood or animal. Yeah, you try. If you kill them, and you expect to take it home and our both our mom and the kids know, there's a whole purpose of slaughter animals equal for general conservation here or consumption.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:09

Blimey supermarkets today. When you when you really look at the law, and you really study that it, it just blows open so much. Beautifully, though, doesn't it? Yeah. So without the old? You can't grasp the No, no, you

Steve: 47:25

can't. You cannot. And this is why I say that. You can't have

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:33

you can't have one without the other. But there was

Steve: 47:36

there were various reasons why they chose in style. We don't have to, we'll take them. But the church does not teach the old No,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:45

right it that is clearly doesn't,

Steve: 47:47

if you we go back to Paul teaching in the synagogues. He then founds churches, and he teaches the people of what was past, what is present and what is to come. Yeah. Right. To the extent that when he first meets with the is at the Smithsonian church. He says remember what I told you when we first met, it tells them about the future about the Antichrist, he tells them about what's going to happen. Yeah, so these people, they get a huge a download, oh, Bible study, from the past, the present and the future from Pope, you know, and what we do is we brought over No, we can't. And this is too much, and we can't do this and the other, but the church is supposed to know the church is supposed to understand. We are supposed to read this. We are supposed to understand it. And God raises up teachers to help us to understand

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:44

Yeah, God right. It got Newstead thank there, God raises up.

Steve: 48:48

And then when those teachers come along and teach, it's then our responsibility to go back into the word to check to make sure that what they're teaching is true test every spirit Yes. Test every spirit and if we believe that what they're saying doesn't. It doesn't gel with me, because I tend to see the word written differently. You don't get on your oil son starts stones at people, which you say, okay, look, I accept what you say. But there are certain things that I can't accept. But generally, yeah, okay. Yeah, we were talking about this earlier that my belief is a monologist. Salvation is of God alone. A man does not participate in his own life. And I believe in the call of God. Yeah. There are people that believe that they have a choice to choose that Well, if that's what they believe. That's fine. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. If they look at their Bible and say, No, this says,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:54

Oh, my control. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

Steve: 49:58

that's I've got no problem. sure that I can only teach the why I believe if people choose to disagree with me on the way they read their Bible. That's good. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. You know, I'm not here to be like, No, you got that wrong. No, no, no, no, no,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:15

that that is, that's very important to understand, isn't it? Because denomination. So that's that. And that's it. This is our why, and why Oh, no, no way. And there's no I don't even like use the word apologetics. There's no common reasoning and sitting around gently and just talking saying, How did you how did you get to that? What How did you get to that understanding what guidance what reference Have you got? It's like funding it across. Yes. Like big hammers dropped.

Steve: 50:45

It's normally what happens with these people. It doesn't matter which stripe they're in, but they are not they normally appeal to some big Bible teacher of the past. Yeah, yeah. But he said this. At the end of the day, I really don't give money, what he said, or I read the Scripture, or read what he said, No, no, check it out

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:04

be quite interesting. Because when someone says that they are going on a man rather than because they can't even they can't even bring a clear reference to what they're saying. They're going on here site. And as the time goes by, if

Steve: 51:17

you ever look at the Reformation, when God recovered the truth that the just shall live by fire, yes, he gave that truth to loser. Yeah. And Louisa was astonished. It revolutionized him, he changed his whole way of thinking. And when he saw it, he came. He was at loggerheads with the Catholic Church

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:39

explosions.

Steve: 51:40

he was at loggerheads with him, and he became a different man in so many ways. And even rich reached out to the Jews and said, Look, your Messiah, and I said panel off, we know you've been killing us for us. Do you want to read this? And he got a write up with him. Yeah, he really did. stiffnecked people know under God. And a lot of what he wrote Yeah. After. And gender the anti semitism. Yeah, there still in the church

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:14

still very real.

Steve: 52:16

You know?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:16

Yeah.

Steve: 52:17

And the replacement theology that came out of Yeah. And he's still there in so many ways. In classic reform teaching,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:27

had an interest in that man can quote, man, but it can't really quote the Word of God. Look what he said. Luther said, Well, what show me where that is in the word. Well, I don't know.

Steve: 52:38

Quite as true this is, this is all it's all very well, you know, Well, John Calvin said this. Job wears off, wasn't he said that? And he said this. And he said, I really don't care. What does the Bible you know, when you stand before God, he's so used to saying, God, well, I believe that because he said, So they say, well, it was a quote from the Bible. What do you make of it? Exactly? What do you make of this word?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:04

Come let us reason together.

Steve: 53:05

And as I say, you can read these great men or if you call them great men, I read these men, and you can disagree with them.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:13

The other thing is that, you know, we mentioned the other week, we've all got to be teachable. Evan, we're very handsome. If we're not teachable, we are religious. And we are concrete pieces of stone.

Steve: 53:23

We become parties.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:24

And yes, yes,

Steve: 53:25

this is my house, this is me

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:28

this is mine

Steve: 53:29

And you can't you've got you've got to, you've got to allow within the constraints of the gospel. You've got to allow people their freedom to believe as they believe. All right. There are foundational truths that we can't get away from. Yeah, you know, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was born of a virgin. Yeah, he died. On the third day, he rose again, he ascended into heaven. He is the true living sacrifice. He lives ever to intercede for us. One day, he will return for his church, one day will turn and judge us now. When does he come back? Well, he's going to come back before the tribulation, no, he's gonna come back during the journey. He's gonna come back after the tribulation.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:16

So that difference that differs to the way you might in but there are fundamental points, there are fundamental points every believer every believer should hold to and that that is it right?

Steve: 54:28

There are fundamental points that you cannot divert from okay. But there are other points that you dependent on the way you read word. Yeah, not the way Mr. Calvin Rhodes. Read it, not the way Mr. Weasley read it. The way the Feeny read it, but the way you read it, yeah. You are responsible before God for your understanding of this word. That doesn't mean to say you have to understand everything and know everything and because that will be implied. So it's impossible. It's impossible impossible. But what you have to do is come before God and say, Lord, when I read your word, for instance, we've got the Isaiah quote where it says, it pleased the Lord to bruise him. He has put him to grateful. I don't understand. Why is it please you? It? This is strange. I don't understand this. Would you? Would you talk to me about this? Would you be understanding? Yeah. And as you pray, I mean, I've got several prayers. I've left with God, and I'm waiting for him. To give me an answer. Yeah. All right. I don't understand this. Would you tell me I don't understand that. Well, you tell me at the right time, you're telling me and the penny will drop.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:39

That's what it is. Got it? Got it. Got it, you know,

Steve: 55:42

and whoever we are, it's of no moment. How immature we are as Christians it is in no moment how mature we are as Christians, it wouldn't be

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:54

the word of God if we grabbed it. Oh, would it? It couldn't be.

Steve: 55:57

It couldn't all of us responsible before God Yeah. To have some understanding. And to try by the grace of God, to learn to seek wisdom from God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:11

And then he revealed as we study it reveals alive.

Steve: 56:16

God has raised up in this electronic age you turn on YouTubing you find a dozen decent teachers

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:24

are just gonna ask you if you had to put if you if you was to listen to someone so difficult to work this if he was going to listen to someone to teach the Old Testament. Who would you turn to?

Steve: 56:40

Probably Arnold fructan. Bill. Okay. Is messianic

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:44

messianic guys. Yeah. I because they're steeped in tradition. And they know that more. Yeah, we do in the West. Yeah. Because

Steve: 56:57

there are things within the Old Testament that only Jews understand. There is the New Testament that only Jews understand. Yeah. are interested in that, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's, we spoke about the folded napkin for Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 57:12

that was brilliant. Yeah.

Steve: 57:14

All right. Yeah. Now I you know, for years I've read about the folding napkins and I did what does that mean until you sell it was only later that I found out that it was based you go in

Reverend Ben Cooper: 57:25

that DVD? Yeah. On Our Watch that DVD on the wedding. Was it Yeah, that was That was unbelievable. The Galilean wedding. Goodness gracious May.

Steve: 57:35

And it's this it's I can't remember the exact quote, but Jesus basically said, when when you get a dude at safety, he's gonna bring in stuff from the old and stuff from the new and he's gonna be able to teach in a way that you don't say just of course, but he basically read it. Yeah, he was a gentle Yo,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 57:57

you ain't gonna listen to these people. Because yeah. Because you can't get away from the fact that they, they can deliver it better than what or a westernized pastor could ever do? We did because it hasn't got the no because in

Steve: 58:15

so many ways we are trying to deploy Yes, Calvin, we're tainted by wear a mask. We're tainted by our mania. Yes, we're tainted by this. This Pentecostal. What it yeah, all of it. Yeah. Whereas if you look at this, this is a Jewish Book. It was written by who's for all right. And it was written by Jews for the rest of the world. But it's a Jewish Book. Yeah. About if you will, a Jewish God, who actually we've got a whole list.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 58:46

Yeah. Yeah. A Jewish God. Alright.

Steve: 58:49

Because whether you like it or not, whether you like it or not, Jesus is still a Jew.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 58:53

Yeah, but prove it. Out of that,

Steve: 58:59

and it's we we have lost so much because of anti semitism in the church.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 59:07

People are trying to talk about it. Yeah. Because of, of what?

Steve: 59:13

I've never found anything more stupid in my life that you worship a Jewish God. And then you hate the Jewish people from whom he claim that that makes sense to me,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 59:23

man is crackers. Yeah, it's balmy. We serve a Jewish god. The King of the Jews.

Steve: 59:31

yes the King of the Jews, and we hate the Jews. And we

Reverend Ben Cooper: 59:35

what is that one out? Work that out? completely upside down. Right. What is his name? Arnold. Arnold Franklinville. Right. There we go. Everybody. So if Steve says saying normally it's best to jump to and have a look for yourself, but his word isn't higher than Jesus is, by the way. Just just we're just I'm not lifting him up that I but you know what we mean? So Steve, again, again and again and again. We've come to that point of such such a great bit of biblical teaching you brought to us today. Well, we've only scratched the surface as I was going to say if you there's so much to learn to understand 613 613 laws, including including the 10. There is so much in the Old Testament, it's a lifetime of studying. Yes,

Steve: 1:00:23

it is, of course. It's a continuum, you know, then you've got the prophets on top. Oh, dear.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:00:28

We're out of here. It's goodbye. We've only done an hour an hour, 33 minutes. And it's like, it's open the doors to hours and years of just studying and thinking and pondering and praying over. No one's never gonna grasp all this. But what a great God we have. God bless you. Thank you so much. You've been listening to Steve, and has been in the presence of God, wherever you are. Thank you so much for joining us today. Please, please share all this stuff out, push it out between your church family, your family, your work colleagues, you know, wherever you are, please, let's have some feedback. We really would appreciate that. You can find us on Spotify. Buzzsprout iHeartRadio, Amazon music, Alexa, and so many other places. May God bless you and we thank Steve from the bottom of our heart. We are blessed in this church. We are blessed in this ministry of podcasting to have an great Bible teacher. In the name of Jesus. God bless. Have a great day wherever you are. Bye bye