Hello, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today, wherever you are across the earth. Wherever You Are we thank you so much for joining us for this live stream service and everything that we got going on. May God bless you and strengthen your we got Steve with us today. afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon, Steve. May God bless you. Wherever you are today. We thank you so much. You're joining Steve and myself. You can find us on iHeartRadio, Buzzsprout, Spotify, Amazon music and so many other platforms. YouTube, God bless, Steve We're in. We're going where are we going? You lead us my friend, let's go well,
Steve:over the past weeks, we've been looking at basically the area of the need for sound doctrine, the need for speaking correctly with regards to the Word of God, yeah. And because of the days in which we live. Because the remnant is becoming fewer and
Reverend Ben Cooper:fewer. Definitely. There's a
Steve:necessity, more so now than ever before. That might be a bit of hyperbole, but it's certain reflective of the first century church, that we need to really be grounded in the Word of God. And we must learn to judge ourselves and to search ourselves out. Not so much for areas of sin. But what we believe and why we believe it got Yeah. I've chosen Pete the passage from one Peter, four, and 717 for the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God. And if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? I've taken out of context, really. Because places talking about their suffering. But suffering must come to the electric must come to the remnant.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's a big word suffering, isn't it? Yeah. So it's very clear, very clear that in that word, we can talk about endurance. We've got we've got to go through and when you look at the text that you're bringing to each and every one of us, it's really important to understand that endurance is needed. And the only way that we can do is to make sure that we're we're in the will of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Because suffering will come there's no there's no other way to skirt around it to die around
Steve:it. The important thing to understand is that unless we get our doctrine and understanding correct, when the suffering comes in the fullness, we won't be able to stand. Oh, you okay? Yeah. Jesus said about the difference between building on shifting sand on solid ground. Yes. Our solid ground is the word of God. If we don't build on solid ground of God, they have building on shifting sand. Yeah, so we have to have understanding. And we have to hold to the truth of the Word of God. Now this can, to some degree, have a certain variableness we can have groups of people in a church that believe all the gifts of the Holy Spirit have finished and passed away. But they will hold to the soundness of the truth of Christ who uses what he's done, what he will do. And how he works in the life of a believer. The necessity for being born again, the necessity for being led by the Holy Spirit. Now, you will find other people that will hold to those truths, but also know the gift of the Holy Spirit and passed away. And then amongst that group, you've got people who are sound in their belief and practice. But then you've got people that are unsound in their belief and practice they will come up with prophecies that are a nonsense, and then will claim that they're not false prophets. If they only if they prophesied and they got it wrong. You No, that doesn't make me a false prophet. Well, if I go to the supermarket and pinch a bar of chocolate, that makes me safe, even though I've only stolen one bar of chocolate,
Reverend Ben Cooper:one bar, that's it one degree of error.
Steve:Well don't say, this is the point. And we spoken about this, these degrees of error you start off with, with a half a degree here, you're beginning. Yeah. And by the time you get to 100 miles down the road, you are a long, long way off have a long way original goal was. And so we have to be very careful in how we read the word. What we believe about the word Yeah, how we handle the word. Jose, is it God's says In Hosea, My people are destroyed through lack of knowledge. That knowledge means wisdom and discernment and understanding. And we go back to this business again of if we build upon shifting sand. We're building without discernment. We're building without wisdom, and we're building chasing after falsehoods, and deceit. And now, yesterday, I sent you a text about you did. For some years now, there has been this teaching in the church. That when Jesus was crucified, the father turned his face away. And we find this there's a chorus or him, Behold, the man upon the cross, my sin upon his shoulder, and mostly, it's very sound. But it does have this thing the father turned his face. Why does well, if the father turned his face why then the sacrifice that Christ brought, was not good enough. Because God rejected it by turning his face away. We know from Isaiah 53 that he is the one that crushes his son.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's a That's a difficult, alright, texting, but this is that's fast that's
Steve:crushes. He certainly doesn't do it blindly. He doesn't shut his eyes. And he's watching. He's looking God's got the father's role in the crucifixion. He's not one of passivity.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No. And also, it's the will of the Father. Yes, it's the will of the Father, but the sun is sacrifice. And that sacrifice is brutal. Yes. And as you've said, in the book of Isaiah, and in Psalm 22, that you may want to turn to if you're on line with us at this moment, it's very clear, it says he has not hidden his face from him, but has listened to his cry for help. And if you'd read the first part of that text, it says, For he has not despaired or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one. So this, this, this is an anger and I going off. Yeah, because this is clear, isn't it? Because we are told over and over. And I have to confess as well as we sit here that I thought and I have preached when you talk about the Father turn in his face the separation, when actually right before me for years and years and years in Psalm forever and a day, Psalm 22, verse 24, clearly tells us something very different.
Steve:Yes. And if we don't, and this is what I was saying about holding to the truth of the Word of God. And you see, one of the problems that we have today is people living by feelings and not faith. Yeah. So it sounds all very nice that from a theological point of view that Jesus hung on the cross, and he went all through this and oh, look, you went through this and he went through, he went through enough, you don't have to overthink the body.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now you don't know. Now if he was just to study the cross, and study crucifixion, that will give you more information you will ever need to know without putting the makeup on the Hollywood slant on it and the biblical. Now whenever you use the word biblical the Christians, the Christian speech that's out there is trying to dramatize it.
Steve:Yes. And they go over the top and what and as I say, if seriously, if you hold to the view, that God turned his face away from his son, then the sacrifice wasn't sufficient. And our faith in Christ's death is of no use. Yeah, we are not saved because by God turning away is there's plenty in the Old Testament where God gets angry about the kinds of sacrifices that have been brought in. Yeah, it's Malaka, isn't it? Where he says, I wish somebody would just shut the door,
Reverend Ben Cooper:close the door, close the door.
Steve:I have this idea that God the Father, who at the baptism of Jesus says, This is My beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased, at the time of the cross when He has sent him to die says, and well, I'm not well pleasing
Reverend Ben Cooper:him at all. And that's his will, yes. Because Christ makes it very clear, doesn't he? I have not come to do my will, but the one that has sent me a will of the Father. So redemption and crucifixion was the will of the Father. Yes. So if God knew that this was the perfect will, and the will was to take His Son to be the one and only sacrifice y at the point of sacrifice when he turn his face, he won't. So all of a sudden, so from that text yesterday, and what we've been, what God has been bubbling in our spirit, all of a sudden, again, we've got fresh revelation on some scripture, that we've all probably looked over and breathes backwards and forwards, and quite easily have got caught in the church language that God turned his face. Christ was completely on his own when actually, no,
Steve:no, we don't see when he said, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? This is a quote from the Psalms, yet we do not understand what seriously he's talking about. Theologians have looked at this for years, and they really don't understand. Yeah. Some have said that the Godhead was rendered at that point that that Christ was taken away from the Godhead that he became. It didn't become sin, he became a sinner. And in this, where we get this misinterpretation from Hagie i where it says that God cannot look upon evil with approval, well, we know that. But that's got nothing to do with Christ on the cross, He was not a sinner, He became sin became sin, became sin. And by becoming sin, he died, he couldn't die. Otherwise, he took our death.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's a very, very deep subject. So when you think that, did God turn his face I, the more I think about this, I can't see that God turned in his face from from the, from his only son, as in did he turn his face from from the sin and the darkness that was there, because Christ mentions doesn't in the New Testament, I am the Father are one. Yes. So there is a clear time reference that there is they are one, and then you go to Colossians. The sun is the image of the invisible God. So there's loads of references of the Deity strongly connected. So when we when we look at that scripture that God turned his face, I think, I do believe that I've misinterpreted that
Steve:the difficulty for us as it was,
Reverend Ben Cooper:for all of us, all of them, and all of us
Steve:it was about 1700 years ago, is to determine the nature of Christ. Yeah. And they came to the conclusion that he's 100% man and one on one of them, thank God. He suffered, did he suffer in his God, hate? Did he suffer in his manhood? These are very difficult questions. To answer. There must be an understanding that in his God, hood, there is something of suffering. Yeah. But the sin itself was on his manhood. Yes. Because God, sin can't well with God, as it were, do they, it will be destroyed. It's impossible. So for him to suffer as a man he had to come as a man suffer as a man, because he couldn't come as God suffers God. No, but he couldn't lay down hold on. He couldn't lay down his God, head godhood because that would mean that he will be separated from the Father. Yes, and that can't handle it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when the scripture says the man Christ Jesus, yes, that is a real interesting text because that is very steeped in doctrine as in He came as the man Christ Jesus, but as the image of the invisible God, it's so it is inter woven,
Steve:it's it's very, it's one of those difficult areas that we have to be very careful how we deal with it. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:prayerfully Yeah. Over time, doctoring. Yes, seeking the Scripture, revelation from God, revealing because you, no one can actually say when you when I think could, could this possibly be one of the most difficult parts of the text throughout the Bible to understand that God turn in his face, which he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't turn his face because then we come back to come back to Psalms. That is where very clear, you know, it talks about for he did not hide his face from him. But he listened to his cry for help.
Steve:And we understand that this is a fact because at the end he said, My into Your hands I commit My Spirit will have you been rejected he
Reverend Ben Cooper:is no hands. It can be it can be hard to get near to. There's no relationship, complete separation. So the word separation needs to be looked at very clearly, doesn't it? The cross
Steve:is the greatest mystery. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:For us most differently,
Steve:and we have to be very, very careful how we handle it. I mean, so much so that some of these twits out there, come up with this idea that no, it wasn't on the cross where Jesus suffered, He was taken out when he was tortured.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Do me a fireplace. It was It says in it. It was a public spectacle
Steve:in vibrant open show of the, of the principalities, abilities and powers on the cross, not under the earth. Now he didn't. He did nothing in secret. He's amazing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Nothing hidden, nothing hidden. Nothing hidden from the human eye. And it's clear biblical fact that the scripture says that he made a public spectacle of the power to the authorities. He disarmed the rulers. At and on the cross. It happened on the cross. Done.
Steve:Yes. These things that people try to romance. This is the romance immature Christian
Reverend Ben Cooper:romance, you know, writing a nice novel. Yeah. Sweet. And when actually it was done at the cross. When he said it is finished. There's another question isn't there? If Christ said it is finished, everything was finished? Yes. So if we believe
Steve:his work was finished, yeah. And then the application of that work? Yeah. Continued by the Holy Spirit. Yeah, through the eyes
Reverend Ben Cooper:of the church. So if it was finished at the cross, wherever and what had ever happened from that point of crisis, saying it is finished, and where a lot of people say he done the work in hell and in the ground. What was he saying then when it was finished on it? Because it's not there's too, so when he said, It is finished, everything was finished.
Steve:I mean, even from, from the standpoint of he went to hell and was tortured by demons. Demons aren't inhale yet? No, that's where they're gonna go.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's where they are. Destined? Scripture again. So we can't run from the fact of two Timothy, chapter four, verse three, where it makes clear, clear sound, soundings of sound doctrine. doctrine has to be the first and foremost the unpacking, the revealing of Scripture can only be done by the supernatural God, because if I anticipate an outcome, make my own, I can make anything up from Yeah, and I've done pretty well in the past at that, but he's got me nowhere, he's got me confused. Because when when the truth comes in, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Truth is so powerful. What I've, what I've learned, and I'm not understand when I say what I've learned, or what I mean by that is what God has shown me. And that's without the clouds opening up and God, you know, what we're saying, but just through the Scripture, and through revelation or knowledge has been outstanding. But it took lockdown to do that, to me, as I've clearly said, Yes. And I feel that God is just is revealing, not, and that can sound quite arrogant. But it's not. I just feel that I've reached a point where I've studied and studied and studied. And I've had to, because the scripture says that but there comes a point of season in your life, doesn't it? Where God just opens it up more and it just comes in like a like a, I don't even I don't know how to describe it you without using this stupid languages out there in the church language. God reveals it. So I might have read this psalm over and over and over again and just read read over it. Do you think that God holds it back? Just like the two that was on the
Steve:sides? I mean, there are times you can. There was I was reading something the other day. If I can remember where I read it. Yeah. If only I could remember we're already
Reverend Ben Cooper:seeing that Psalm 22 have breezed over that and read over that. But then suddenly it changes its face it changes not its meaning. But it's it's my body and my my understanding this suddenly drawn into that because God reveals that so when you look at education and when you look at academic stretch that has no for barons and power and authority over my understanding, because I've read that more times than I can probably count. And you can almost read the Scripture, like, you know, Psalm 23, we can quote it and quote it and speak it. But actually, when God almost puts a, a boost in it, opens it up, it becomes stronger. So revelational knowledge as the New Testament, as Paul the Apostle writes very clear, as I write this to you, it is being revealed as, as this, as this is being written as fast as I write this as fast as I can quickly put this down. It is coming in as revelation or knowledge. And Steve said, and as the Bible says, actually, that the Gospels, and the Word of God is a mystery to the human being. So it's critical. It's critical, that I seek God, and as I seek God, and I look for him, and I understand what it says, Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. But as I seek Him, God reveals doesn't,
Steve:coming back to this business about let's get back, go back to something I was reading the other day and Galatians, again, Galatians, I've gone through it many, many times, but this has bypassed me, and this particular dollar ring, and it's it made between the eyes, bang, therefore this is from Galatians, three and pick it up, verse five, therefore he who supplies the spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith, just as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham, or, as this is the thing that got listened to this commands, the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, the scripture for seeing God, the Scripture, the Scripture, coming back to Scripture, because suddenly the, the Scripture itself is preaching, it becomes, you know, we talk about the Word of God, he's alive. They go, and what's that reference? That's from Galatians, three, and then pick it up, verse eight, and I've never seen that before under scripture. It's the Scripture,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's the Scripture, the Scripture, the Scripture, it always comes back to the Word
Steve:of God, you would have expected and the spirit but it's not. It's Chris Scripture, the Scripture. And so we get these sight, we get these things, you know, we we gloss over them. And sometimes God says, you know, we've had enough of glossing over,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've had enough of your white gloss. This is my, this is my show, this is mine. So come on, come on, have a proper look. And we come back to that text. And it was where God says, I do not share my glory with no one. The Scripture is the safeguard that if it's not in the Scripture, it's not it's not of God, if it's in the Scripture, it's of God.
Steve:Now, this is where we come in to the important part of this, this has all been, to some degree, a preamble to understand that there will be a revelation of the man of lawlessness, spoken of in Second Thessalonians. Now, we've spoken before that this lawlessness is not lawlessness against the laws of men. But the lawlessness is against the word of God, both his law and his writings within the Scripture. So this person, whomsoever he's going to be turns up, he goes in to the temple. And when he goes into that, Tim here, it doesn't just go into the outer Corp, he goes into the Holy of Holies, he goes into the place where only the high priest is supposed to stay. And once a year, he actually goes in there. So when this new temporaries, constructed, which he will want constructed, yeah, I've heard various stories about there's lots of people in Israel couldn't care less that it's only temporary Institute wants it and so on and so forth. But he will want this constructed. So it may well be that he's the one that comes along and says, You've got to build that. I don't know. But here we go. But the thing is, that he's got to stand in the Holy of Holies, and declare himself God, above all that is called God. He goes against the whole aspect of the Word of God, he becomes lawless,
Reverend Ben Cooper:so he is lawless. He's coming and going against the Scripture, everything
Steve:is going against everything. Now what we have to be careful of and this is why so much of it is a preamble. If we do not hold to the truth of God, doctrine, sound doctrine, we will be in a position of being drawn away to follow the lawlessness of this man.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, they will. Do you think that we are at a position where there is a falling away?
Steve:Very Yes, I think there is. I mean, we've spoken about this before. Christian University of Arizona, George Barna has done several studies over the years and looked at the condition of the American church. And we spoke about this the other day that of all the pastors, I took a general thing, that in America, only 37% of pastors have a biblical worldview. Now, that piles actually that's 37% Sounds good, but even seven, but when you get to teaching pastors, different pastors are brought in to teach only 17%. So they these people come in as 17% of teaching pastors, only 70% have a biblical worldview. So what teaching pastor do you bring in on what's his worldview?
Reverend Ben Cooper:From we're lost? We are we are similar, because what happens?
Steve:Around 83% of teaching pastors don't believe the Word of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when you look at the the reverse 83% don't believe. So it brings it back to what we've said quite a few times. And we've done quite a deep podcast on is how small it's like going back to the book of Acts, isn't it has small The Real church is you've got this big explosion of all this, razzmatazz a noise but when but when it comes back to standing, and actually being counted 83% Do not know. And 17 This is quite, it's very, but it's always been the same, isn't it? Because when you look at the Scripture, when you look at the percentage, and you look at the volume, you can see that it's always been small, but religion has just exploded. The
Steve:difference today is this is this is on a global scale. If you look at it from America, I mean, America, if I get my I might have my fingers wrong, but they they're not totally out of whack. There's someone reach about 390 million people live in the United States, and of which 260 million, so they're Christians, and you go anywhere in the States, it's the largest Christian grouping in the world, where you take that 260,000 And then break that. And then you start, as Barbara does, he starts breaking these things down. You know, do you believe this? Do you believe that Jesus is the only way? Well, actually, no, no. Do you believe in reincarnation? Actually, I Yes, I do. Yeah. And you get EOS asks these sorts of questions. And the responses show that people don't have a biblical worldview. Now, if that's going on in America, where for years and years and years, they were a strong, not necessarily Christian nation, but a strong nation with a strong Christian influence, if they are falling away at such a rapid rate. What about what about us? What about France? What about Germany? Yeah. And we know that also, this is affecting Africa, where Africa once upon a time was very, very solid, very solid. But now you've got the prosperity teachers moving in there to such a degree I've been. I've been watching some of the stuff on now. And I can't believe some of the nonsense that's been
Reverend Ben Cooper:preached, think about taking the prosperity gospel to Africa in certain settings. It just doesn't fit. It doesn't. It's not right. It's easy. But the trouble is kilter
Steve:here. But the truth is, if you're living in some poor area, and you're in desperate need of God, this America and this guy comes on and says, we don't worry about it. You know, God wants to bless you. He wants to know what I've got, I've got this big car, and I've got this and I've got that and blah, blah, blah. And these people are sitting there, go on, mate, that's what I need. But instead of taking them, what do they do, they steal the money off the people. They say, give me a toys, which isn't biblical. All right, we could chase that one down. I'm not going to bother. Give me this toys. If you don't give it to me. God won't bless you. So these poor people take out what little they've got. And I give it to him. And each one's off and I dropped down fell out of starvation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What Yeah, that is basically what we're saying. For the prosperity gospel. Yeah. manipulation, manipulation, and abuse. Yes. We've got abuse going on within the system of the church,
Steve:and the further language so when you when you look at the warnings that the Pope gives to Timothy, he also says, look, there's going to come a time when people will not listen to sound doctrine, but they'll gather Yeah, they will gather teachers around them
Reverend Ben Cooper:around the itching so that
Steve:they may scratch their itch in ears. So there comes this point that it isn't to teach just these poor people that have been sort of crushed by these teachers. Some of these people want this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, great. Fine. The flesh. Yes, it says it's it's scratching that itch that That call never be satisfied, but only through the real gospel of truth. sound doctrine. I wonder how long we have seen this gradual but it's all scriptural. There's nothing that we shouldn't be petrified or worried about that Oh, hang on a moment has this taken God by surprise, but because it's already been written about. And then it comes back to the same thing again, if I'm in sound doctrine, I will expect to look across the pond and expect to look within the UK expect to look within the church and go, Oh, they're only doing because it's been written about already.
Steve:David Martyn Lloyd Jones, who's been there for 50 has stick. I will say that the Christian looks at the world. And he's not surprised that the way it's going because that's what it says it's going to happen in Scripture. Now, he said that 5060 years ago, one of I, I've, I've gone over this time and time again, and I don't apologize for repeating it. One of the reasons that people are in this parlous condition with regards to Scripture is because they get most of their understandings from the songs that they sing in the church. And most of the songs that we sing in the church are rubbish. You know, to be honest with you, you could take the vast majority of stuff that people sing in the church, take it out and burn it, and you'd never miss it. Because it's rubbish
Reverend Ben Cooper:comes back to is it doctrine, quiet? Or is it the trance, the feel good, the rhythm, the atmosphere, the the feeling, and then then we can quite easily get onto the subject of that Kundalini spirit, the Jezebel spirit of foreign spirit, something that is clearly not a scripture, not of God, because music is very, very powerful.
Steve:I mean, you don't even have to bring the demonic in the flesh, the flesh, the flesh, the flesh loves it, the flesh will do. So when you start bringing somebody, as I said, to Behold the man upon the cross, if you look at that, it's very, very sound, mostly all the way through. But then you get to that point,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, that point.
Steve:And then that the attorneys face away, and suddenly, you're you don't think about it, you sing it, and you sing it often enough, and it lies within you
Reverend Ben Cooper:that that's it. After time, it sits in there. And if you're hearing that teaching, as well, you become accustomed and you become programmed, and you become indoctrinated with, not the crowd. I
Steve:mean, the amount of the amount of songs sung today about God changing the atmosphere. Someone please tell me in the Word of God, where it's so it says atmospheres are going to be changed,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you won't get that you won't get that you won't get that back to this psalm. Steve, I'm going to read it again, what just coming off of what you just said, Psalm 2224. And it says, For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one, he has not hidden his face from him, but has listened to the cry for help. So we could almost go very carefully to the Garden of Gethsemane couldn't be the cry for help. And when you bring all this in, is a cry from Christ isn't there? If it is possible, take this cut from me, but not my will. So there can't be a separation, because Christ is crying out. He's sweating droplets of blood. He's in a position as the man Christ Jesus going to the cross, and He says, Not my will. So he can only go and do what he's going to do because he's got the will of the files.
Steve:And if we look at that whole area, and we look at that build up to the Garden of Gethsemane, we have our Savior showing himself as a man acquainted with
Reverend Ben Cooper:grief, yes, differently,
Steve:and showing himself as a man who although God does not rest in his god hood, yet, but rests in the father
Reverend Ben Cooper:is the father. It always comes back to the Father, doesn't it? I have not come to do My will but to do the will of the one that has sent me Yes,
Steve:and that we don't understand the pressures that were on Jesus. As he approached Jerusalem, we don't understand what demonic oppression was going on. At that particular time. We don't understand his own thoughts of what he was facing. Yeah, he I think understood quite clearly what was going to happen. He didn't go into it blindly, didn't go into ignorantly and this was part and parcel of him crying out to God. Give me the strength to face this. It's got to her if we if if For those whom You have sent me to save or to be saved, I've got to go through this. And I need your help to do it. Yeah. And it's only by this again we bring into the other aspect of the Godhead is the Holy Spirit. He then strengthens Christ. He goes through that time of turmoil. Yeah. And then he is strengthened by the Spirit. And he says, Okay, let's, we will now move from here. And the arrest happens, and he's taken off, and he goes through that. But we could say, to some degree, his victory was found in the Garden of Gethsemane. Our victory is found in his sacrifice on the cross,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Mason, the Scripture is, again and again and again, it comes back to the Scripture. And then we come back to the Scripture, it takes us to the sound it takes the fall of the Holy Spirit. It is it is sound sound doctrine is clearly needed within the West, isn't it? Especially anywhere, anywhere, I would say more more than, than ever is the UK in need of sound biblical teaching?
Steve:Well, first off, let's say that the church in the UK is in no Unified Medical Teaching. And unless it eats of it, and drinks of it, it will mangry we have well, it will be of no use to those that are lost. If all you're doing is regurgitating the tripe that we've been talking about here, then what use are you now if you don't preach the true gospel, that's right,
Reverend Ben Cooper:there comes a point when, when the Holy Spirit of God deals with the individual and takes the individual out of everything that's going on. And the individual has got to make the stand. Because I believe that we're at that stage I believe that we're at a stage where there are a lot of preachers and teachers know, deep down know but are frightened of, of standing up and being a Joshua and Caleb and don't hang on, I'm not going to engage in this bad report. Our God is able I am going to trust I'm going to stand on the Word and it's lifting your head above the parapet, and maybe people that we've worked with and colleagues that we've been with for so long. There's a coming a point when you've got to make the decision. I've got a stand for Christ. Yes, I was just gonna get washed away, and lost and lost for how long on what's what, what is the outcome? Because when this this man of lawlessness shows up, you'll get washed and swept into all that. Well, we
Steve:come back to Peter, don't we? We do. For the time has come for judgment to begin at the how's it gotten? If it begins with us? First of all, it will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God. So Jason at the house of God, and so we have to we have to cooperate, if you will, with his judgment. We Yeah, we have to cooperate and as much that we have to question what we believe and why we believe it. Do. I believe it because this chap said it. That person said Do I believe it? Because I've read it in the word? Yes. Do I believe it? Because it just sounds good to me. We have to understand, again, we come back, we have to judge ourselves looking, we've got to look at ourselves. And this isn't? I'm not talking about with regards to you know, when Paul talks about taking the communion, search itself out different. It's looking at the fundamental reasons of why I believe what I believe.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Why do you believe that? Why do you believe in marriage? Why do you believe in the birth of that? What, where's your reference? What is your point? And it's quite interesting that when you have these conversations with people, people, there's no biblical conversation anymore, is there it's all theories and opinions. And yeah, I think there's nothing there's too much thinking rather than when actually, this is what the Bible says what the Bible says, This is what the Bible says. We're driven by opinions, aren't we? And
Steve:unfortunately, that's, that's, that's the that's the zeitgeist that's that's the spirit of the age. I mean, Twitter, Facebook, you know, all of them are lean
Reverend Ben Cooper:your opinions. You know, I think there's I think that when actually we need to be hearing the biblical language of where Christ said just believe, I believe yes, I believe to understand no see the other
Steve:thing is that unless we have that sound firm rock Yeah. We are not going to be able to explore the things of God and the Word of God because we can end up being blown around by every winter don't
Reverend Ben Cooper:train that's right as you've come back to Scripture again, been blown and tossed around by by everything you just like a flag blowing in the wind being ripped up. He says,
Steve:so I can I can stand quite happily with a John MacArthur, who says, I believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have passed. And the reason I believe, is this, this and this, okay? Yeah. But for the rest of what he teaches, is extraordinarily sound. And I can agree with with so much of it. If we look at someone like a Kenneth Copeland, there's no way that I can stand with a blade
Reverend Ben Cooper:cut, and you can't No, no, no.
Steve:So we have to, when we approach any of these figures, it doesn't matter who they are, historically, or contemporary contemporarily. We have to know why we believe
Reverend Ben Cooper:this comes back to this again, all right, comes back.
Steve:So when I sit and listen to someone, there's a particular bloke I like watching on YouTube brute Corman. He's a Masonic rabbi. And I found it find an awful lot of what he says, very, very sound. What I don't agree with absolutely everything he says. And the reason I don't is because of the way my understanding of the Bible is.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. So each and every one of us has an understanding, but God will reveal and bring us to a biblical truth.
Steve:Yes. And I have to also in all of that, say that I am teachable. If I am wrong in what I understand, I mean, Paul, in one of his letters, he says, you know, and if you think differently than the Spirit of God to join. That's a great scripture. Yeah, that's a
Reverend Ben Cooper:bit of a Yeah, it's a bit of a whack.
Steve:But the thing is that we are to be teachable,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that this is really important. Isn't that scripture that we have? I don't think we've really stretched and gone into that a lot. But that Scripture is really important, isn't it? Because to be teachable, is making it very clear and very loud to the world. I don't know. But I need God. And if I've got this wrong, please, God help me.
Steve:We have to have confidence in God, to begin with, yeah, we have to have confidence in him in our life, then we have to have confidence in him to change our way of thinking if it's necessary to be changed.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Steve:And be, we're not blown around by every wind of doctrine. But this, this is where I stand the these are the basic principles on which I stand. The reason I stand on them is because of the way I've read my word. But there are peripheral things. Yes. That I might have got wrong. So there's fundamental, they're fundamentally concrete, that we are all joint to Yes. What we think we think we are, strangely enough, this was a conversation I was having with my wife earlier on today, the over the years as a side, but we've been Christians now for nearly 40 years. And we've been members of various churches, but not once, not once in any church that I've ever been in, not once. So if I sat under theological teaching is teaching theology, that we've gone into that church. And Paul, you're Oh, hello, you're a Christian? Oh, yes. Great. There's an assumption that you believe what they believe exactly, that there's an assumption that these people understand the word of God, because they come into our church.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, but hang on. I could be anyone.
Steve:But in all honesty, there, most of the time when I've walked in most of these churches, I've been out of step with the vast majority of people in the church. Exactly. And the resource, I'll have to explain that, you know, reason why I've been out of step with the vast majority of people is that the vast majority of people believe that you can choose your salvation. And in the choosing of that salvation, yeah, you can lose that salvation. Whereas I come from a different aspect of Simon No, actually, I'm called of God. Yeah, he has said to me, I will save you, I will maintain your salvation, yes. Through sanctification, onto glorification. Therefore, if I maintain it, you can't lose it. Now. There's gonna be people out there, so you don't know what you're talking about. Okay, fine. Read the Word. And come value from the point of view of the word. The reason I hold these to be true is because of the way I read the Word,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and I'm the same you cannot lose your salvation. There is no beef. It was
Steve:down to me then yes, I could. We wouldn't be sitting here. We wouldn't.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We wouldn't be where we are by grace, whereby is mercy by his love and, and everything that goes along with that. So
Steve:so this sorry, this is what I was saying that when you go into a church, yeah. Now, as I say, for the vast majority of time in the church, I've just about every pastor apart from you, I've sat under, that tells me that I can lose myself. Right?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, but yeah,
Steve:but I've held what I believe Yeah, sure, yeah. And because of what I read in a word,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. But you mentioned the word, a theologian. What who was the last person that you would just say? That was a strong theologian within the UK?
Steve:Probably David Martyn Lloyd Jones, I
Reverend Ben Cooper:think I would have guessed it and said the same thing. Not that I really have heard a lot of his stuff, but what I've caught from it, he seemed to be very sound very solid, very biblical.
Steve:I mean, there were things no wishy washy, because he was because he was very much Calvinistic, there were certain things that he believed that I would not write, I would not sign up to. Because basic Calvinism has replacement theology in it in it, and I don't believe in replacement theology. And so there were certain things oh, you know, one of us. I don't agree with that. Don't agree with that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But that's that's the freedom that we have in the word, isn't it? Come let us reason together. Let's talk about it. How do you get to that point? And I can't see what you see. I can't get to that. But if if there was to be more sitting around the table with the Bible open, and talking and discussing.
Steve:That doesn't happen.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, no, no, no. So what we are have across a mass per look at the church is opinionated speaking, with no biblical teaching. So we have lost, we have lost I honestly believe hopes on correction and goes well, actually, I can pinpoint someone across this UK right now, that is a very sound theologian that is really pressing this across. I can't my ears are not hearing anything, probably.
Steve:Tony Pierce probably is one of the few at the moment. And even Jacob pressure, although he can rub people up the wrong way with some of the things he says, and he's very much a Wesleyan, Armenia. And there's a lot that he believes that I don't believe, but a lot of his teaching can can be very sound. And so you have to be careful. Yeah. When when you listen to teachers, you have to be you can't just swallow.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Scripture says test every you've
Steve:got to Berean you've got to be a Marine. Yes. You've got to test the scriptures, you must search out. And if you disagree with someone, no matter how vulnerable you might be as a teacher, nonetheless, I and you and everybody else are responsible. How many times I've said this recently, when we stand before God, say he's gonna say why did you believe this? Yeah, it's an insufficient reason. So well, he told me, he told
Reverend Ben Cooper:me, Well, he told you the wrong.
Steve:You can say, well, actually, Lord, you know, he's pricks and stuff. And I looked at it, and I tend to believe what He taught, but it's my responsibility for what I believe or are seeing you can't turn around. So you don't mind me doing
Reverend Ben Cooper:that. Exactly what Adam. Well, you gave, he actually says, well, woman. You've done it. Yeah. Absolutely. Humanity is best there is precisely swinging it back.
Steve:And the thing at the end of the days that when we stand before God, it's not a case of deep we get all the answers to the questions. Because it's beyond our humanity. So to do Yeah, but why did we believe what we believed? Yeah. Why did we, and we believe it because of what we read in His Word. Now, I might have got I might get things wrong because of my understanding of the word. Yes. You know, I'm not perfect. Nobody is. But I am responsible for what I believe
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's correct. Why did I believe yes, and why do I believe simple, Steve? We've hit we've hit the gun. We've hit the we've, we've got to the end. Yeah, tell you what they're so so quick. Time goes so quick, didn't it? We thank you so much. Wherever you are, across this after Dave, you know, today. So you've been listening to Steve and myself air and Steve has brought so much to the table and we would just just urge you really, to keep in the Word of God, there is no other way. It is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. It is through sound doctrine is through the word of God. God Bless you. Bless you. Take care. We thank you so much. You can find us on I Heart Radio. You can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, Amazon music and so many other podcasting platforms. Have a great day wherever you are, across the mega bless you in the mighty name of Jesus Christ,
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church Swanleys latest amen. podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout, Spotify, Apple Music on iHeart Radio, Google Play, Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.