Good afternoon and welcome. Thank you for joining us here in Elim church in Swanley. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper, and we have our brother Roy all the way Reverend Roy, Reverend Roy, Pastor Roy, brother, Roy, so many titles he's carried. And he's been in the ARG ministry for such a long time. And we were so blessed with his word from last week with brother Brian. But as we gather around, you know, and we're looking into something that's really going to be really interesting at this moment, as we just gather around the mics today, thank you so much for joining us across the world, you know that this is not edited in any way, this is just completely out of the barrel of truth straight out on cross the mics, we don't put this through any system, we do not take anything or add. This is just straight as it comes out of our brother. So may God bless him and strengthen him. In the mighty name of Jesus. As you know, you can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, I Heart Radio, and so many other social platforms to capture this stuff back for, and Amazon music and Alexa. So the title of today is the nature of the spiritual realm. Roy, thanks for coming back. It's really good to have you with us. Let's see where we go. Here we go.
Roy:Yep. Okay, um, this is a very big topic, as you can appreciate, Ben, I think it's one of those topics that is, can be easily misunderstood. And so I'm really approaching this not as a theologian, but as a practitioner. And the last two or three years I've, I've actually studied to find out, you know, is there a scientific evidence is there evidence about a spiritual realm because, you know, we, as ministers, and those in our congregations know that there is a spiritual realm, we might not understand it. But we clearly see in Scripture, that there is a spiritual realm. In fact, in fact, Paul taught, and Jesus taught that whatever takes place in the spiritual realm actually has influence what happens in our physical realm. Yes, but this physical and spiritual realm were never read the beginning were never separated, it's only become separated through the phone. And so I wrote a paper or about 30 years ago, it was on creation. And in this paper, I suggested that there was a fear false, and that the spiritual realm and the physical realm, were one of the same domain until the end of the innocent period, where, as we know, Adam and Eve, you know, rebelled, and they get up from the tree of knowledge. And at that moment, the spiritual realm was torn from the physical realm. And even when we sort of go through the Old Testament, we know that, that this spiritual realm exists.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Very, very much, though, doesn't it very much slowly.
Roy:And then you get obviously into the New Testament where, you know, the Holy Spirit came and and there were angelic visitations. And where do they come from? All right, we say they come from heaven. But what I want to address in the short time that I have is really, the fabric and the nature of the spiritual realm. Because it's there. Right now we're sitting in a room in the physical realm, we have our senses, we know this is all real. Yeah, we're alive. But you and I know that there is a spiritual realm actually, in this room, where there are angelic beings, you know, we can guess what that looks like. I often
Reverend Ben Cooper:actually try and work that out in my mind and try and work out what does that look like? Because always, my mind seems to go back to Psalm 91, For he will command his angels concerning you to lift you up. So that is really prominent in my being and thinking, what does this actually look like this spiritual realm? I can't see it at the moment. I actually longed to see it, I would love to see the activity. Yeah, that is in that spiritual realm. And I know it exists, I believe it exists, and I will put my life on the line exists. And I don't have any doubt that it doesn't exist yet. But the church in the UK seems to just push it aside. Seems to be pushing at this moment. Everything is physical, about accepting and teaching in the spiritual. We hear a lot about revivals we hear a lot about I would actually say false prophets. We're not when you're in here a lot. So there's the spiritual realm of God. And there's a spiritual realm that is very dark isn't Yeah.
Roy:And and, you know, Paul said, you know, he obviously was writing about himself. He says, I know a man 14 years ago was caught up into the third heaven, and it wasn't to showreels out the body or in the body, but right there, you know, we see that there is a spiritual realm. And he said, I saw things that I meant not permitted to talk about. So we can speculate, and there is a good chunk of scriptures that gives us some idea like in Daniel, about that, but I'm not necessarily in this session really going to talk about what goes on in that it's more about the existence,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because that is a key, isn't it? Absolutely.
Roy:And we've got to go right back to the beginning. And so I'm gonna take your listeners, right back to Genesis one, one.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's so important, is it because that was in existence before we because the Scripture actually tells us, doesn't it in a few places, before the world was before any formation of physical? Yeah, he was.
Roy:Yeah, absolutely. You know, God is eternal God, God, it's fascinating. God is not a creative being he is He is God. I mean, all the angels were created. So they had a beginning. But as we know, how Heavenly Father had no, no beginning because he always has been I am. He's
Reverend Ben Cooper:fascinating, this subject, the spiritual realm. And it's like, sometimes it almost feels tangible, tangible, like, yeah, I work in palliative care as a chaplain. And I work in a very, very heavy area, because I'm with people when they cross over. And I sent when this activity because I call Be careful what I say. You can sense when, when, when death is about, to approach. Yeah, I've been in it for seven, eight years. Yeah. And when you're journeying with people spiritually, and the end is almost at their door, you can sense that there is another world and and I've had a few experiences, to be honest, where I, I step into this bubble, but the world seems to stop and I go, GO is fairly difficult to explain, it feels that you go into a world that is very real. And it's very quiet, and there is angelic activity, you can feel the atmosphere changing. So I believe I've had quite unusual encounters in that, but not yet with my physical eyes. But I don't even like use the word atmosphere, is that a correct way to consensus, consensus, my physical awareness of wet awareness around us. The earthly life is coming to an end, but there is an eternity, about there is something about to happen. And it's almost tangible, the air becomes almost tangible. And it actually feels like Time has stopped the world have stopped and I'm in this zone this place, and I'm thinking this is upon me now. I can feel it. God angelic activity there. There is something. There is some other power, which I know. Yeah. And it's tangible. Yeah. I've experienced that feeling. Yeah. So for me, it's very, very real to this subject. Yeah, it's really hot.
Roy:Yeah. Well, there's two verses that I want your listeners to, sort of anchor in on, because this is really what drive which, which drives me and it did do 30 odd years ago, when I when I wrote the paper. And it's Hebrews 11. Three is it by faith, we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen, were not made of the things which are visible, you know, so there's an element where we have to apply faith because there are certain things that will go beyond our comprehension. You know, I'm no physicist, I don't claim to be a theist theologian or a scientist. It's just that the Holy Spirit took me on a journey three years ago to study quantum physics, wow, to really get a handle on the spiritual realm. So the second verse that I want to put alongside that, Ben, is that it's words of Jesus in John Five, Verse 47, where it says, If you don't believe the writings of Moses, how will you believe in my words, and I think this is the way we are prac proach God's Word that, that Moses wrote the first five books of the Torah, so yeah, all right. We know that Moses wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we get that, but when we come to Genesis one, you know, the law, the Lord reminds us that when we read six literal days, it's six literal days and we play five
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that's it. So for me, it's game over. I don't need I don't need to. I find absolute peace in it. But I know pastors and leaders tell me in a church, even like why am I whispering? I got a clue that they weren't even engaged. They believe they believe in this crazy theory. I have a gap of the of the millions of years of evolution, but they're behind pulpits. Yeah. So if you don't get Genesis, correct, yeah, through the Holy Spirit, I believe it throws everything else out the fundamental teaching is, is God said let there let there be and there was and that is it. Yeah.
Roy:You see all started with a deception. Yeah. And what has everything does, and the deception was we've got to go back a little way. And it really comes out of of, of a well, if I'm sure that you're aware of the Scofield Bible, well, anyway, there was a man called Darby, Darby, you know, John Nelson Darby, he, really that they believe he was the sort of guy that brought about the teaching of dispensational teaching. Now, I'm not going to really get into that. Because though I'm not a classical dispensationalist you have to be dispensational. When you approach eschatology, when you when you approach Bible prophecies, like getting into Isaiah, you've got to approach it literally. Even like the tribulation, the Antichrist, the False Prophet, all of those characters, you've got to view it for the eyes have been dispensational. Yeah, it's a must. Well, sadly, what happened? This kind of teaching started a bubble along and and Scofield bless his cotton socks, put the Bible together. But in that he, he put his commentary, and in that commentary to address what was going on, in the in, in that century, in the 19th century, he because obviously, you had evolution that was getting traction, he started to, to write which we would call the gap theory, which I'm afraid Why am I afraid? No, I'm not afraid. I don't use this word lightly. But heresy, the fact that you know that the world was created millions and billions of years ago. And when you get to the six days each day represents 1000s or millions of years. So all of this is poetic. And romance. Yeah. And, and dear older, this, you know, this gap theory, and it helped really, with the brethren in the early years of the bravery movement, because that's where dispensationalism really came from, is that, they would sort of say that there was what they call a Lucifers flood. And I'm not going to get into all of that. But to nail it down, basically, that the whole creation of Cosmos was created millions of years ago, which allows for the dinosaurs and all of that kind of stuff. And then by the time we get to these six days, we are now entering another age. So there's a gap, there's a gap, well, there is no gap. Let me just say this straight now, off the bat, okay, you're going to need more faith to believe in the gap theory than you do a six day literal creation, I completely agree. And I will continue to the Dalgo to glory, or he takes me home in any shape or form, I will adhere to a six day creation. And so let's let's just start with this. Verse one, because believe it or not been, it's all here. And it's and it's when you start to look at science, and you approach it with a genuine desire that you want to know the truth. You don't want to pick up someone's theory, but you just want to know the truth. And you know, the heart of it that if God says I've done it in six days, well, that's good enough. So apply five trying to say, Okay, Lord, how did you do it? I know, you just spoke the word and it came into being I get that. But what was the mechanics of it? Yeah, what was the science of it? You know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's correct. That that really is correct. And obviously, that this is where we can draw on where God gives us revelation or knowledge. And they because knowledge is limited, isn't it? Yes, we can see this now what we're studying. Yeah. So there has to be another layer where God will take someone's faith or take us or whoever is looking, as you just said, Lord, I want to go further. Yeah, so is only God that can take us deeper, isn't it? Because when we look at this, we can see as some people get a little bit Oh, hang on a minute, this can't be but when you believe, and you know, that you are redeemed, and God is real. We bring all this together. I believe I really believe that God reveals as we get more hunger eyes, the Scripture says we become more eager. We become eager, I want to know I want to know I want to know so would you agree that knowledge is really limited in this in, you know, is limited and then it's got a ceiling, then it's then the only way that we're going to discover more, no more is literally God to take us into that.
Roy:Absolutely. Revelation truth is what we all need to and that's what we live by. Yeah, we live by, by by the rhema word, the spoken word of the spirit into our lives from the logos. Fantastic. Got it. Okay. So, jumping in there to verse one. You know, in the beginning God created the heavens in the earth and then you go on to verse two, the earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep and the Spirit of God. was hovering over the face of the waters? You know, right there, you've got to start to look at what what's happening because there we actually have, you know, we have an existence of water, I would say it was more like, and I know I'm speculating at this point is like some kind of plasma soup. Okay, all right, yeah. But clearly God is in the picture. And he is over it. And though I find it very difficult to imagine what that verse really looked like, yeah, I can see, the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. So right, God's got his hand on the pulse is there. This is where it gets exciting for me when I started to go and study quantum physics because he says, Then God said, Let there be light, and there was light. Okay. Now, for most of my Christian life, I must have already thought that that light was natural light. Okay, but we know and when I was here last week, we we sort of talked about it appearing on fourth day was when natural light came along. So this light here, and in the paper that I wrote as so many years ago, was that this was the catalyst for me to believe that there is a fifth force, there has to be a fifth force. See, because there's four forces that is in the standard model of physics. Now without boring your listeners by going through those four. All right, even the standard model is still a little bit untidy to say the least. Sure, okay. It's, it's, it's a long way from where it shouldn't be. Okay. So what we have is this, what I call Quintessence preeminent light, that we're Quintessence basically, is we get it from the from quantum physics. So anybody who studies that will know what Quintessence means, right? Okay. preeminent. It goes without saying, light. So it's, it is a light, but it's far superior than natural light. So, whereas, you know, when we talk about light, it has photons, you know, and electromagnetism is part that we, we know what carries that this light, we would have to say, I can't even begin to speculate, what it actually consists of all that I know exists. Now, the reason why we know that we can be confident is because this preeminent light manifests periodically through all the Old Testament and even into the New Testament. It's there. Now, why I say that is because you and I know that there is another dimension. Yes. Okay. There is another dimension, which we call the spiritual realm. Yes. Right. So what we're up to is that when God is saying this, what is actually doing before he goes to work on creating creation as we know it, the physical Earth? Yes. He's actually putting out for what the canvas of the cosmos. So he says, Let there be light. Now, just follow with me on this, it actually says that in verse four, and God saw the light and that it was good. And here is a fundamental issue or point, when we get to understanding the spiritual realm. This is from God divided the light from the darkness. Again, we must interesting, at this point, what you have is that light is an energy. So preeminent light is an energy when God divided the light from the darkness is not is not addressing the natural light. And course where there is no light, there is natural darkness, he's actually dividing light from matter. Okay, so what you've got here is matter and energy, he's separating the two. This is fundamental. So when you've got matter, even physicists today talk about dark matter and dark energy. Now, the reason I use that term is simply that they cannot actually see the matter. But they can see its effects. It's the same with dark energy, they call it dark energy, because
Reverend Ben Cooper:they can't see it. But now we get to see it
Roy:and correct it or be observed. They can observe its behavior. So if you push any physicists really hard on what is dark matter, you would get a statement like, okay, don't matter, though. This is all a theory. This is what they will say. It's really like dark gravity. Okay. So so they seen the behavior of dark matter as gravity, it attracts attract, whereas, dark energy, okay, it's a false where actually it repels, okay, okay, so What we've got here is that God in the first day is his dividing matter from energy. Now, to imagine it quite
Reverend Ben Cooper:a deep spiritual flow to this as well as,
Roy:if you follow with it, it is not complicated.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not complicated, but you can see the forces of darkness you can see or I don't know if I've got this right. But when I look at this and listen to what Roy is bringing to the mics, you can see that there is a separation with the matter, the the energy, the lights and everything that's going on here. But also you can see that it's almost as if they're how do you how do you? I can I can feel it, I can sense it. But it's like, to me like the dark energy is Satan being separated from the light that there is, there is more to this then creation for me that this is a I can write Henshaw,
Roy:I can see where you're going with a sort of sort of spiritual Yeah, kind of application. Yeah, but let me just say for you, for your listeners. This dark matter is not evil. It's part of the creation soup.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah. So when you look at this, this this, this is good. Yeah, that because we said God saw on it. It was good.
Roy:And I'm gonna get there. Because yeah, once you finish it, it was complete. Yeah. And that's another thing very important.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Absolutely.
Roy:Totally. So with this actual, he calls the light day and the darkness nine. Okay. Now, some are saying, Whoa, hold on. How do you measure that? Is this all before time? And that? Well, I personally believe this, this is sort of tried to pry in and get an angle on this to say low? Because it's very difficult to visualize? Yes, it really isn't. So there is an element of faith here. But I don't want to go beyond the text. I don't want to go beyond scripture. Okay. So I'm convinced that when he started to right at the beginning, divided energy from matter, actually, what was created is gravity. And so what you have is the beginning of the coming together of the sphere of the earth as we know it today, you know, okay, so you've got the word Academy, you've got Matt to them. And what gravity does, if you understand physics, basically, if you've got energy and pull away, I personally believe that within this first day, the earth as a sphere was formed and started to rotate at the rate that it is today, maybe it's fluctuated a little bit, over 6000 years, some sites are slowing down. But in terms of, you know, the earth spinning, for example, round 24 hours as we can measure Wait, yeah, that was the speed on the first day. So it's not like, oh, you know, like this first day, it's not 24 hours, it could have been 24 million years. Okay, so the sphere is moving. It's rotating straightaway. Yeah. Because the gravity forced from from the whole relationship between dark matter, and dark energy bump. But actually the this energy now, which we know what we I personally believe his preeminent light. Yeah, which is the fifth force, which they haven't found yet, that I doubt that they will ever really see it. Okay? Because it's seven times greater than natural light, I xiety. Okay, and so moving on to the next step, because the next step is where I think it gets very exciting. Because as you start to have the sphere formed, God goes to work on the earth. And so you see, this creation taking place on this sphere. So in that first day, you have the sphere, it's spinning, but then the Lord goes to work on day three, two, and three. Then we come to day four, and this is where we really move into the whole landscape. And on day four, he created the sun, the moon, the stars, the galaxies. Now I expect some of your listeners say ADIA, it's like start yawning, saying, Oh, how can you justify, you know, galaxies that are billions and billions of light years away more? This is very easy to explain. Okay. In the concept, okay. If if Heavenly Father is using preeminent light, yes, yeah, yeah. Now, I'm going to use some verses for your listeners because the Bible is not quiet on this. Okay? The Bible is not quiet on the fabric of space. So So when God spoke the word within one rotation of the planet Earth on that day, all the stars, galaxies Is was stretched and put in place within 24 hours. Right? Okay. Okay. Some would say he threw, he threw, but I'll give you some scriptures. The fabric was spicy. He stretches out the heavens job Nine, eight. Yeah, it stretches it like a curtain. Psalm 104. There's Isaiah 40, verse 22. There's Isaiah 42, verse five, this is i 44, verse 24. There's Isaiah 51, verse 13, even go into the Psalms, and even injera, Jeremiah 1012. So there is all numerous verses of scripture that describes the fabric of space. Yeah. All right. We were told in Isaiah that it can be torn Ben, we're told in Psalm 102. It can be worn out like a garment. And in fact, this is the exciting bit it says it can actually be rolled up in Galatians rolled up, yeah, now that tells me straight away. If it can be rolled up, there has to be another dimension. You cannot roll four dimensions up. If there's not a fifth, there's
Reverend Ben Cooper:not a fifth, you're right. So so so on the outside, there has to be something on the outside of that dimension. The fourth that you're saying, right, but
Roy:this correct apps, absolutely. So so even Einstein bless his cotton socks, it took him to, to quite late in his life where he started working on what we call space time. He said the four dimensions. And so you so you've got height, width, depth and space time. So you've got the volume, space time. Well, the apostle Paul, right, he alludes to four dimensions. Yes, in Ephesians. He does. All right. So I mean, if you want to play around with the great, we can see that, that he doesn't always make a mistake. And he's repeating a word. He knows a different Greek word. Yes. Okay. And that has to do with breath. So you've got with but then he uses a different Greek word for breath, fret. Okay. So wider, wider. Okay. So, though, I have to say, you know, Paul wasn't sort of teaching space time or anything like that he was conscious that there was a fourth dimension there was more correct. And then we come to the fifth dimension. So let's get right back to the Adam and Eve. So when he created it, at the end of six literal days, he said it was good. Alright, so it was perfect. Okay, so then we begin what we call the innocent period. Now, the length of the innocent period, theologians have tried to come up with ideas, and I don't think it really matters how long that period was. It's not critical. But there was a period of time where Adam and Eve really had what I call pure keen onea Koinonia, where where he communed with with the Lord in the garden, it was absolutely perfect. Now
Reverend Ben Cooper:unblemished not affected by human hair, as we know today, correct?
Roy:Perfect, perfect. And, and to me, that is heaven. That is heaven. And when you think about Yeah, I mean, I mean, I believe it was a Christopher, Christopher Lee, you know, Jesus in pre incarnate form, being with Adam, in the garden, no doubt about that. But in that period, or that period of time, the spiritual realm and the physical realm were one of the same, we still think like and reason we can say that is because we've been given the model, through the tabernacle of Moses through the Temple of Solomon, and even the Temple of Zahra Bible as equals temple. So as the only difference is the tabernacle of David, which is the blueprint of the of the New Testament church. So when you look at the blueprint of the Tabernacle of David, that's just revert is referring to the church or church. But when you look through the temple throughout the Old Testament, and even the physical temple, the Third Temple, you see that that is the blueprint of creation. So let me just run through it very quickly. You have the Holy of Holies, right, that there is course farther than throne and got the seraphim around him. And we know that that's where the god Godhead resides. Now, then you've got the holy place, which is heaven. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that when we get to heaven, there was a little room where it's the Holy of Holies, and the throne room of God, not at all. But when you look at the scriptures and look at heaven, you can see that the throne room is different from Heaven itself from heaven, and even those that serve father at the throne are different that Sara femmes you've got Kara beams but children's is a row is different. So when our loved ones die and go to the Lord, they go to the holy place. Yeah. Okay. Now, when father started here on Genesis one one and what we've just talked about, he created the coat. Yeah. Now the coat was one of the same. But what happened when Adam blew it? The cult became the inner cult and the outer core inner and the outer. Right? So when you look, we've got a good commentary and as EQ that talks about the profound thing, he talks about the priests. And what happens is, is that Adam and Eve committed the profane or common thing in the Garden of Eden at that point, at that point, the cord was severed. And you had Yeah, in a cord, and an outer coat. Yes. And that is the blueprint. So what you had even, we don't know how long but what happened when Adam gave up his dominion. I mean, he surrendered, surrendered it to Lucifer, and handed all over. You know, he began to die, you know that the curse came, and that's a whole nother subject. But you see that the Garden of Eden he, he was removed immediately from the Garden of Eden. And for a period of time, we know that there was a terabit or cherubims that protected a tree of life, that he could not get access to the tree of life. Yeah, right. So so so you had two trees, you had had you had the tree of knowledge, which he ate from the tree of life. Okay, which is the life and so what you've got is these two principles. And I think there were more than just trees. Yeah. Right. And in fact, even if you look into the furniture, in in the temple, and Moses tabernacle, you've got a mini Eden. Okay, that's what you got. That's what you've got. Yeah, yeah. So we know that God's very, very hot on, on, on what I call prophetic languages, and Sims and symbols. And he's very tidy, very, in many, many ways. And so what happened is, is that the curse came and, and the planet began to die. And that moment, the spiritual realm was severed from the physical realm. So spiritual laws changed, he began to die. So faith before then wasn't required. Faith is a spiritual law that was activated, because of the full sacrifice had to be activated because of the form. So So a whole load of spiritual laws had to take place, just like we have spirit have laws in physics.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So there was a starting point. Yeah. So when the fall happen, that's when the starting point of salvation had to come into play redemption and or come into play. Sacrifice comes into play, but before the fall, it was perfect. Absolutely. Here. Yeah. And you spoke about the physical, and the spiritual being one. Now, my mind and my thinking, have gone to the point in Genesis where it says, God walked in a call of the garden. Yeah, that interests me. God walked in the coal of the garden. Now, if God is God, and God is God, and when I look at this, I think, right, okay, if God is, no one has seen God and can live Sure. That's correct, isn't it? Yeah, that's fair. I understand the word but then for the scripture to say for God walked, does it mean literally walked in the garden? Because for someone to walk, you've got to have two legs. Yeah. So there has to be the physical, because the Scripture says, And God walked. Yeah, it doesn't say got floated. It said he walked. So there had to be a physical presence of God, or was it? The word? Christ? Yeah. You touched on a little bit earlier? I
Roy:mean, I'm not dogmatic. The fact that it was Jesus in pre incarnate form. Yeah. But I believe that that there's a high probability was but if you sort of said, Roy, do you believe it was farther? I have no reason not to do to, to disagree with Ivan. There's no reason why I could challenge that. Because Jesus is God. But if it's a case of Him, being the, the first person of the Godhead, that is very feasible. When you follow the language with the Old Testament, we know that the Lord appears, you know, yes, several times, several times throughout the scriptures.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think that could I think that is quite a key point. When people go well, what relevance is it will God walked in the color of the garden, the walk in? I believe, we'll help a lot of people in the understanding that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was we've gotten Yeah, and he will and the Word became flesh. So we have evidence, don't we? Yeah, that there is a A physical kind of use a word being physical two legs, however, I don't know. But the word walking means so much. Yeah, to walk, you've got to have legs. Yeah. Now the word became flesh. So when you're talking about the physical and the spiritual was one at that point, yeah. Yep. There's evidence to actually to hear it to see it through the word of God, isn't it?
Roy:Yeah. And and I think I touched on this last time, is that Lucifer would have been present. Yes, he wasn't fallen at that stage. And I'm quite comfortable about that. Because all the verses that we would use as as proof that he was a cherub and he fell into the third of the angels, all the commentaries around that, though. Yes, some might say it's sort of poetic language. But when you look at that language, it's all referring to the context of creation. Yeah, it's always a context of creation. So I personally don't believe the rebellion started in the gap theory, you know, billions of years earlier, we've Lucifers flood, nor do I believe that Lucifer had already rebelled, you know, during the six day period of creation, I think it's something that after he saw it and, and, and there was a period of time, we don't know how long Well, I can imagine Lucifer in the garden and he would have been allowed to be there seeing Adam and Eve having fellowship. Yeah, God, yeah. In a way that he could never. Because Because, yeah, Lucifer, though he was a cherub. Yeah. Okay. And the cherub with clout. He, he was not human. So he had all authority. Oh, yes, very much.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So there must have been some form of
Roy:wasn't the thing. He wasn't creative. He wasn't a physical realm.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So so this this is yeah. So this is where we have so it's interesting, isn't it? That if he and he was a spiritual being, feelings come into play, because why? There has to be some form of phases with jealousy shall
Roy:see celestial see he was a celestial being. Yes. Okay. And that means he was a creative being. And so he had a beginning. And of course, we know he's going to have an end. And that's the same with every single Angel. When, when when Adam was created, he was created in the image of God, something that eventually Lucifer wanted. Yeah, he knew he couldn't have it. Now he was never created in the image of God, only Adam was yes. And so these these kind of emotions that you're referring to, like jealousy? Is this this? That's a real hard one. difficult, isn't it? It is, and and I don't think I could ever ever do it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I don't think any anyone really could, in all short hurry to bring us to some but it fascinated fascinates the mind, isn't it to think that this celestial being that was created was a lesser being than Adam. Yeah. So for the for the lesson, there must have been something in what he see. Yep. To trigger some form of a motion on speculation, isn't it? But it's a mystery. Yeah.
Roy:So moving on, regarding once you know, Adam blew it and the spiritual realm is torn away from the physical realm is then then you start to move in the realm that Satan can abide in. And that is, for example, we got a job for example, I fought for years, how on earth could could job sit down and not sit down but you know, even consult to, you know, have a chat to a member of the Godhead when he rebelled, you know, and, and I had to work that through quite a bit of
Reverend Ben Cooper:the must have taken years. What because I can't grasp. It's like one of them. There's certain points in the Bible that just for you just don't even go that you can't even go there. Yeah, so to tackle an area like that?
Roy:Well, I did. I had a real good guy I did and some of the answers in like Psalm 83. Psalm 83, is a powerful book on that alone. So mighty three, because when you start understanding that the spiritual realm was created, within the physical realm was one and then it's separated, is that you then follow it that that Jesus in His sovereignty or God or Yahweh, in His sovereignty, had a council that existed in the spiritual realm. And so, the Lord says, you know, where you come from is to and fro walking on the earth? Well, obviously, he's not physically in the physical realm. He's in the spiritual realm going to and fro. And so, there are so there are various scriptures that that really shows that, that there Is there counsel, there is divine counsel set by the sovereignty of God with in the inner Colt? Yeah. Okay. Now, Lucifer is not in heaven, it was thrown out. But he resides in the inner call. But we today reside in the article and the article, of course, when when the law comes back, this is the exciting bit. And this is why I'm, I'm dispensational. In my theology, when we we talk about the last days and and the literal millennium, you can only hold to a premium view being a dispensationalist. Yes, you're right. And so the Lord is coming back. And he's literally going to restore it, as it was before Adam blew it. So when the law comes back at the end of the Great Tribulation Period, it's going to be like the innocent period. All right, you're going to have multiple Manston around that, that, that that's our mortal, but you and I will be immortal, and will will reign with Him during this 1000 years. Now, I know that's another subject. But why, but why I touch you on that
Reverend Ben Cooper:you have to touch on this. It's connected? Oh, absolutely. Like you start talking about one and the thread just goes on and on and on, doesn't it? It's difficult where to draw a line? Because it's all connected. You can't separate it?
Roy:No, no. And I just want to touch on a couple of things. So appreciate times really putting on we're fine on Ben, is that this age of the universe, you see and the so Roy, that sounds really nice, you know, Quintessence preeminent light bang, yeah, it really did it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Spirit was bad.
Roy:The thing is, is that when you look at the evidence, so let's just look at the evidence. All right. The evidence really points the fact that, that it isn't an old universe, right? Yeah, it's a young, young, young creation. It's a young universe. And I'll give you an example. And some of your listeners will be blessed by this in the next month, within the next month. They say that, like a star, they've graded stars. So for example, our Sun is growl is a population one star, right. And unless they've looked around our galaxy, the Milky Way, they've seen certain stars that they believe are older, so they call them population two. Now, of course, as you follow this line of thought, they're now talking about a hypothetical of population three, where you see a star formed and taken form and from the Big Bang, yes. Now of course, we know that that's not correct. So when you they've surveyed as many galaxies as they can, they find population one stars, they find relation two, but they have not yet found population three, they haven't found one. Well, we know why don't we because God made them all
Reverend Ben Cooper:in a day in Rondo course he did. Yes, of course, he did scripture,
Roy:and he throw them out there seven times faster than the speed of light. And since we've been talking, they are still expanding as the speed of light. Some say some have declared that it possibly faster the speed of light, but I'm quite content just to say it's expanding speed like that. Do me. Okay, I'm finished that. Yeah. All right. So when we sort of then tie it all back from the point of these planets been so so old, you know, and you can't find these old planets, you just just didn't just not out there. Why I say to your listeners, that will most probably be very interested in the next three or four weeks is because as you most probably aware, there is this big mighty telescope called the James Webb telescope. And they're all getting excited. It's about 10 times more powerful than the Hubble's and physicists are all getting really excited that they honestly believe they're going to see population, three stars, they're gonna, they even believe they will see evidence of the Big Bang, wow, now I can tell you, okay, and I'm not, you know, that bright, really, I can tell you what you're going to really see when they switch that thing on NSA, they will just see more and more mature, guess what we got? Of course, they will it and then they will say this, oh, the university is not 30 billion years old. We think it's site 60 70 billion years old. So they just be chasing and
Reverend Ben Cooper:chasing, forever chasing costly will.
Roy:And we know that time is running out in terms of the law coming back. And so there are so there's going to be loads of other signs that will show you and I that we're living in the last days because there is going to be tangible evidence that the spiritual realm is starting to be broken out and there's gonna be breaches of Spiritual on back into the physical That in itself is another subject. But what I want to catch up just before I finish our little session is dealing with the fabric of space. Yes, yeah. All right, so, so just just go with it with me. So we know the vastness of space and it's not infinite, it's finite, it's finite, it's finite. And it's the same the other way. Now there was this physicist called Planck. All right, Max Planck, he was a German physicist, that one then about peace prize, because he's the man that is Mr. Quantum in his early days. And really, he broke the mold, so to speak. And he was a very clever Chappie, and, and this thing's got what they call blanks constant and blanks. length. And I just want to touch on blanks length, because this brings it home to you and I, right, yeah, this is science. This is not hodgepodge theory.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So this is really important. Because as you said, this is science. Yeah. This, this is important. Yeah. Because a lot of people go on the science rather than going on the faith. Yeah. And when science comes up, then we have a very interesting answer.
Roy:Yeah. So what we have, okay, I don't know if your listeners can imagine getting a piece of paper in front of you, whatever big if it's an A size four piece of paper, but imagine that that piece of paper in front of you is the width of a millimeter. Okay. Now, you ever thought that okay, right, half a millimeter, you fold the paper, and then you fold it again. So every time you're half in it, and you're going back? Well, you would think that you can just keep on going and going and going and going and going indefinitely. Yeah, well, you can't,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's gonna end blank
Roy:is got this, this, this figure. And I'm just going to read a few sizes out where you get to a certain point, right? Where you can't go any more. Now I want to say that you hear a hit a plank or hit a wall on it, you get to a point where you can't go any more. And then you get into what they call non locality. That is a thing where it's something that Einstein couldn't accept to the day he died. And that basically, nonlocality is something when something basic appears and disappears again, and there is no answer. Correct. And it's like that all the whole universe is linked together, but you don't know with what now just bear with me. Okay. So let's just take some of these, these, these measurements, right? So we take out a millimeter, one millimeter, okay, well, in this one millimeter imagine dividing it 1000 times? Yep. 1000 1000 times one millimeter. And then just take one of those and that is called a micro meter. Yes. Right. So micrometers quite small. Then take that micro meter and divide it another 1000 times. Oh, my goodness. Right. Now, you know, by now you're putting your glasses on and you're trying to see it? Yeah. Well, one of those little little 1000s of micro meter is a nano meter, okay. Now, nano meter,
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is where we got nano
Roy:nano meter. So just to give you a scowl here, your fingernails are growing one nano meter per second.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right. Okay. That gives you some give you give you an idea of trying to bring this to some Okay, thinking
Roy:we can go on we can go through pica meters, the whole lot. Yeah, we could just go on another three degrees of Yeah. Okay. And you get to a point where, where you get to the fabric of space, where basically, theoretically, things are just popping in and out of existence. Got it. All right. And what I'm saying is that you get to the point where you're breaking into the fabric of the fifth dimension, which is the spiritual spiritual realm. Yeah. And so when we take about take, let's take our Lord and Savior, He was resurrected flesh and bone. Yeah, right. Not blood, not blood, flesh and bone. Yeah. Glorified Body. Yes. He wasn't a ghost. He made that clear himself. You could eat but what he could do he could suddenly appear in a room. Yeah, be tangible. You could hold him physically Thomas. Okay, you've got it in one. Thomas. Yeah. All right. And then
Reverend Ben Cooper:fruit so the only way that you can so this is really so this is important to New Testament stuff because here we have Christ. Yep, come back. Yep. In physical existence with the natural liar. Yep. But actually spiritual.
Roy:Yep, he he
Reverend Ben Cooper:untouchable. Yep. But appearing everywhere to over 500 Is that right? Yeah. And then it says he walked on the Mayas road. Yep. So there is a walk in in progress. So there is this physical Christ, but oh gosh,
Roy:he's he's a physical Christ. That because he's resurrected, and so our bodies would be like his one when we're changing the twinkling of an eye, where you will dwell straight into the spiritual realm. See, the spiritual realm has blood he had because he had no blood. He shed it all for you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yes. Yeah. So Right. So there's no blood. Yep. So the cross that we see the shedding of blood. So when he died and he came back, there is no book
Roy:all the glory of Yeah, the same spirit, the same spirit. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So here we have clear evidence of the spiritual realm. You walk in, on the physical,
Roy:you see his body, right. was designed because we know we believe in the economy and creation. Absolutely. So he was truly God. But also he was truly man. All right. And so here you see the link between the first Adam, Adam was created for the physical and spiritual, but he blew it. So Jesus comes back to redeems that so when he physically comes back at second condeming His redeeming it, mankind back to the order it was it before Adam blew it. Got it. All right. Yeah. Wonderful, nice, exciting stuff. Okay, I just finished with with, with with with looking at an atom.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But you can you can, yep. When we're talking about Christ appearing as he appeared, and he came in, he stepped through the wall. Suddenly listening and fallen Royce taken us on this journey, suddenly that scripture becomes more I don't like use the word feasible, but understandable, because you need to understand the spiritual realm. Yeah. So when the Scripture reference that you can go, that was nothing correct. But if you don't grasp the spiritual realm, people are going to go eat and step through the wall, you have physical, no, a physical con. But when you link the spiritual and you bring everything together with what you're saying, yeah, now you can see how Christ appeared over in different places like this, like that walking on the road walking through it coming from now there is. So it's important for a believer to understand how strong and how important is to understand Genesis, because Genesis teaches, and as you clearly brought to light interest to admire how it links. So this will make a lot of believers think and understand very differently, how things are more possible. Yeah. Because that spiritual world was linked through Christ.
Roy:And what's going to happen, you see, we can talk about the tribulation period. But when you get into the Great Tribulation Period, that's the latter three and a half years is that there's such phenomenon that that the bottom, this pit, the abyss, relations now is open. And what is that is a clear breach of the spiritual realm come in a manifested into the physical realm. So people that think, Oh, the Great Tribulation is just gonna be about three and a half years. They haven't got a clue what you're talking about celestial beings manifesting in the physical realm, and even for some of your listeners might find Well, that's that's what the Bible teaches
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Bible. Yeah. This is our it's important, isn't it, that that doctrine is completely needed within the UK? No Western eyes because this, this is so strong. And we are, there is evidence to see where we sit now. And if the church doesn't grasp, this sort of stuff is going to be lost in the abyss. Yeah, it's going to, it's going to be completely gone. Yeah, this is really critical for a believer, because when, when you understand and you grasp this, and the listeners that are out there and go back and keep listening and asking God to reveal this, this is this is easy to grasp, because God is through this and speaking through this.
Roy:Yeah. I want to sort of just finish up on I just want to click close up on the makeup because we said about the nature of the spiritual realm and the physical realm. I just want to say that God's put his stamp, okay, because I believe that God is triune. Okay. I believe there's one God one god, okay, but in three different forms. Yes. When you start to get into an atom, all right, there are three members of three members. But even then when you take a proton, so you got a proton, neutron and electron, okay, so the proton and the neutron that's in an atom. Yeah. If let's let's just take the proton. Yeah. You go into that proton. There are three quirks in three, three. Interesting so so You've got a line of three right into heart and then see, a quirk is extremely small. And I'm not going to get into to that now, but you can just see the Godhead sort of in it just putting his stamp on the most smallest molecule you can even imagine, you know, like there are three. So you've got, you've got to, you've got this quirk. Three of them, you got to up or one down depend on the proton. And then you've got in that proton, neutron, you've, you've got those three elements, electron, proton and neutron within the atom. And so right down, you just see the hallmark of gold head. That's one unit. They're all in harmony, you know? So yeah, that's
Reverend Ben Cooper:really interesting. So it was just science, science and faith work together. Oh, you when you study science and physics, and when you bring everything together, for me, this this hour together, has just quickened and opened up my understanding so much more. Yeah. And to me coming back to that good old Thomas again. Yeah, that is a critical part of for my belief system to understand, you know what? Now it makes it more clear to me as I believe that he walked through, but now I've got an understanding how he can come through. Yeah, yeah. So this is really interesting is really important. Because we're bringing the spiritual to the natural, the natural, and everything, and especially when you when you feel that with science. Yeah, you've done? Yeah. How do we finish this? How are we gonna bring this to a full stop.
Roy:I think we're living in exciting days, really exciting days. And we're a privileged generation to be alive in these days. And I think that I'm quite confident that there is intelligent design and all over the atom, you just look at the atom incredible intelligent design, even if some of your listeners are struggling with the concept of God. Man is without excuse, excuse without excuse, there is a designer, and that designer, is sovereign and is in control.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Hallelujah. God, Roy, we thank you so much for coming back. And I pray that you will find another window for another hour before you disappear or however many we can we can capture for May God bless you. You know, this has been really, really interesting. This is great stuff. You know, I've actually really loved this time together we've rated it is really accelerated if you could ever use that word. And in Christianity, it is really quick and my faith it has given me more hope. It has opened my heart, my mind my thinking, my understanding of everything that we look at. So Roy, I thank you so much. And thank God for your life and your family and everything about you. And may God bless you. So there you go. Brothers and sisters world whoever you are, wherever you are, in this dimension that we live in May God bless you and strengthen you in the mighty name of Jesus. You can find us on so many social platforms and just just have a share away. May God bless you. In Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church Swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout Spotify Apple Music, I Heart Radio, Google Play, Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.