Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here at Elim church. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper with Sandra Robson this morning. And we are in the persecuted church. It's that time of the week again. And we are gathering around these mics just to discuss and to have fun to see what Sandra has to share today regarding release International, maybe open doors and wherever she may take us, but it's a China update. So wherever you are, we thank you so much for sharing everything that we do here, across all the social networks across the podcasting platforms that we use, Amazon music and I Heart Radio, Alexa and Google Play and so many other other other other areas of the great world of technology that's available to each and every one of us. But we would ask you that you would share everything that we do out. We thank you for those that do do that. And we thank you for the new listeners that are coming on. And as you share this across the world, we are blessed. Thank you so much for joining us this morning, this afternoon or the evening, wherever you may be. As you listen to this stuff back. We pray that you'll have a good day in the name of Jesus Sondra. Good morning.
Sandra Robson:Good morning. It's summer holidays.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Hurrah. You've made it. You've come out of the lion's den. You've made it. You've been released. Yeah, summer holidays.
Sandra Robson:Yeah. Good stuff. Oh, to the break and to also look more at things. While I'm not working. Teaching Well, yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:been very, very busy, but has you as you've been blessed, you've been really blessed to keep him working. Yeah, the supply chain that you're in. And we thank God for the way that he's fed you and kept you and looked after you through these number of months and all the way through COVID as well. But we're gonna we're gonna go into China today, aren't we we're gonna have a recap.
Sandra Robson:So we're having a recap of India. And we were looking at some open door material. And it was saying about mocked Phaeton, but unshaken, and it was talking about how Indian Christians are still unshaken, although they are being beaten for believing in Jesus, because they're being accused of falsely converting people. And there is now this anti conversion law in a third of the 28 states in India, which is just shocking. And just, you know, sort of unbelievable that, you know, from, as we said, what, what was, you know, the way India was and how tolerant everything was. And it's meant to be, you know, democracy. And then. So I've got a little testimony here that I was looking at in the prayer notes afterwards. And I thought that was really good, because it just highlights how this anti conversion law is being misused, because this guy, he was raised a Hindu and a remote village in central India. And he's quite happy, if settled, married with two children. And then his wife developed a chronic illness. And again, you know, out of like, desperation, she heard about a local church went along, and was miraculously healed. Wow. So this didn't just affect her, this affected him. And he started to ask questions, and search the Scriptures. And it ended up that he attended a Bible course. And he began sharing about Jesus in his community, and two years into his ministry, and the persecution started and so he had actually built a church he was, you know, he, so from that, you know, healing. It went on to him becoming a follower of Jesus, and an evangelist and planting a church. And, and then, you know, in these in these days, the church services, he was shoved into the vehicle by the police, and they locked him up in jail for some hours. And he says they treated me harshly and tried to force me to leave my faith. And he said that he could have become discouraged but knowing that people were praying for him and the support of partners Open Doors partners there helped him because they provided persecution survival,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh thats interesting, survival training. training. Yes.
Sandra Robson:Yeah. And we'll talk about this more with China. So said, I was excited to learn about how persecution was relevant in shaping my faith. He said, I was also taught how I have rights as a citizen of India. And I was doing nothing wrong by living my faith. And what happened was another incident occurred where a mob and entered his vote village and forced him to the local temple. And he says, I shudder when, when I think about this event, but he said, I was able to speak boldly because of this training, and say that I had rights as a citizen. And the they were amazed, the police were amazed that my boldness, and they turned back the assaulters. And they told them not to trouble me anymore.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's really encouraging, actually, to be bold, to be strong. For that low die, God is with you, you know, and we must remind ourselves that India is number 10, isn't it on the list in there is number 10. And there's just under 69 million Christians in India. Wow. But such a small percentage they make up of the Hindu majority of that population. So what Sandra has given us this is good news this morning to be bold. So let's pray for boldness for the Christians in India, to be bold, to be strong, to do it gently to do it in love to do it in, in a biblical way. Really good stuff.
Sandra Robson:And to know that, you know, as as an Indian, you know, as we said, as a part of a democracy, they do have rights. And that, you know, needs to be asserted. And so this training is very, very important, very valuable. So we thank the Lord that for the wisdom of these partners have opened doors for putting on this training and for what they provide, and you know, what they do, and based on other places in the world, where they, you know, they do this training, but they, they particularly tailor it for the particular situation. And in this case, it's India, but it's really important, and just thank the Lord, for these advocates, and people who do this training and support the church. And so he's now been able to go and tell others, support other churches, and replicate this training for them. So that when they, you know, come into difficult situations, they will know what to do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Thanks for passing on, and a understanding of what is happening. Yeah, to write really interesting. So we need to pray, we need to bring that before the Lord. God is moving very powerfully. And you can just go on to the World Watch list through open doors, ministers, and you can have a good read through what it says about number 10 tells you the Prime Minister is telling you about the percentage of the believers what the main threats are, gives you a news on pastors in India, it gives you some details on the Supreme Court. There's a lot of information sitting on this website can tell you what you can what you can achieve for 37 pound a month for a one off payment. He's got how to help Christians in India, he's got a beautiful little prayer just sitting at the end of the page there. So there's lots of resources on open doors. So that's open doors uk.org And you will go a long way with this ministry. You will go a long, long way. So God bless that ministry.
Sandra Robson:Yeah, so there we go. So leaving India and wear my going off to China. And as I say, this was in the Barnabas aid publication. Not this time, but last last time, and I thought it was very interesting, because it gave a different sort of slant on what's going on with Christianity in China. And it also after I said, I briefly met that missionary and he was talking about what's going on in China in different parts. You see, China is a very big place and, you know, there's different things going on in different places. There's rural China. Yeah. And there's, you know, the sort of more like, lunch you know, that sort of a very busy buildings and all sorts of you know, what, what we think maybe of China And so I thought it was interesting just to look at the history. Where does Christianity fits in China and what things have happened to bring about China's view of Christianity today for the general, okay, shiny, yes, you know, and come communism as well. So apparently, China Chinese. There's been Christianity in China for a long time. And it was established in the seventh century due to a Syrian speaker, missionaries who came with a gospel. And they established the church, the east, and the faith bride and China for more than 200 years. But then it underwent persecution in late seventh century, because the wife of the former emperor, whoo hoo, she used her political power to promote Buddhism as the state religion. So that was the first thing, then the next thing to come in with Taoism. And I'm going to briefly just give you the outline of that later on. So then, that was believed by the missionaries at that time that Chinese Christianity was extinct. However, it had flourished. And it was still there. Okay. And under the Maoist, the sorry, the Mongol manga leaders that it came back to life, so it was pushed, pushed right down in 900, and AC and, you know, it was banished, but it didn't die. It didn't become extinct. Because, again, it it came to life in the 13th and 14th century, and manga leaders themselves became believers, believers. But Christianity was then outlawed again in 1368, with a revolution that brought in the Ming Dynasty. Okay, yeah, so it seems to be in and out. And then in the 17th century, was diminished minute missionaries, such as mascio, Rickey helped to restore Chinese Christianity. And that was followed in the 19th century by somebody that maybe quite a lot of people would know, Hudson Taylor. Yeah. And he started the Missionary Society out there. And then Robert Morrison, and they translated the Bible into Mandarin mesh, it was a big development. And the thing that they liked about Hudson Taylor was that he demonstrated respect for the Chinese culture, that and the norms how ever other Western ministers missionaries didn't. And they had a flagrant disregard and even attempted to, you know, contempt for the Chinese ceremonies and values, which call halls are rebellion, and distrust and resentment amongst them amongst the Chinese. So in 1850, to 64. There was, you know, an uprising, which led to a civil war, which Western powers became involved in to try and destabilize China. And the death toll was 20 million to 2 million million people. Then after that, you have the Opium Wars, which I'd heard about but I didn't understand and basically that force China to accept a opium imports and open ports to Europe and shipping and China was forced to agree with France and Great Britain, and it gave imperial powers extensive rights over trade trade with China and denied the right of China to control its own commerce and economic activity, which again caused resentment. And they they weren't allowed to visit their sacred sites that they that the you know, the the powers that be from Europe, built railways over place. Is which were special to Chinese people sacred ground. Yeah. And then it says later on, some missionaries behave like Imperial landlords. And then missionary stations were used as a means of dividing territory, leading to the fear that missionary activity was a ploy to carve up China, among the Western powers. So these things are like, deeply rooted. Yeah. So that's one thing. And then the next thing is that China has its own religions, and they're called the three pillars of ancient China. And that's Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. Okay, and, and they are all sort of different, but they're all for harmony, and very much focused on family, and respect for elders. And Taoism. It's much more spiritual than Confucianism and represents the push back against the strict customs advocate, advocated by Confucianism, and it's wanting to bring a wholeness and unity. And it's this ying and yang idea, the darkness and the light and light. And then it says the Buddhism, which originated in Nepal and India became popular in China during the first century AD, Buddhist teaching further emphasizes harmony. And both Taoism Buddhism in China continue to engage in ancestral worship. So ancestral, yes. So when we read some of the stories, if we're in rural China, that is a problem when people become Christians that they're seen not to be following the traditions of the elders. Yeah. And so causes conflict. Yeah, remind about that?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because that's, that's very scriptural. That is that ancestral divination and worship in your genealogy line, and all the traditions that have come out of your culture, and we'd be very careful of areas like that. Yeah, it's interesting what what comes up from that? So
Sandra Robson:religion and philosophy leads to opposition to Christianity in several ways. And they they've they've listed I think it's, yeah, four ways. The gospel is seen as diversity, because it doesn't create unity, because to their mind, to say somebody is saved or unsaved, that does, that goes against the idea of harmony and unity. And the claims of Christianity, one God, one savior, also come against all their, their thinking, yeah, and converts will, as we've just said, no longer worship their ancestors. And morph, and Chinese societies focus more on the family. And they see Christianity as being individualistic, a western idea of being an individual. And that Christians tend to associate with Western values. And so they're treated with suspicion. And fourthly, that Christianity may be a slap in the face to national pride. Because, again, one believer was asked by her family, why would she choose the father foreign religion when China had plenty of their own? On top of that, you have communism, which came in in 1949.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's very deep, isn't it is a lot of history. So too sudden, that just doesn't suddenly blow out of nowhere. There's a leader, there's a long leader, yes. And
Sandra Robson:I think this is important and to see where things are now. So, you know, Marxism came in. And they said that a Christianity was a man made thing, which is the opposite of what it is. But they saw it as a man made system designed to blind the working class to their need for revolution, and reconcile them to their oppressors. So, again, because they saw Christianity as part of the imperialism of the West, and how it all they wanted to not be oppressed because religion had misused
Reverend Ben Cooper:again, misuse religion.
Sandra Robson:Yeah, misuse the authority of Jesus. Yeah. And so consequently, communist Marx saw it as a manmade system, which it was, in a way. And so they saw it as an oppressive system, which is it isn't.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now, but that's what, but we can see where they're looking. Because if I look at religion,
Sandra Robson:what happened? What happened with the interfering of the European powers? In going back? You know, it was, like we said, the Opium Wars and all that. So it's interesting, see how these things work? How things get corrupted how they came in, as a beautiful thing, you know, followers of Jesus and then got corrupted, and how then God, you know, uses the persecution? Yeah, actually, to purify things again. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:process isn't there is a process, a process, and His ways are higher than ours? Exactly.
Sandra Robson:That's why I've got this God's ways are higher than our ways are weaker. Two things that came out of me reading this, we're praying for wisdom for the church now, because, as it says, later on, about how some churches, you know, there are there are Christians in prison who have, you know, stuff stood up for their beliefs, and it's because they've had a Bible, and it's because they've, you know, done things, or they've had a printing press, but others have got themselves tied up in the politics, of course, and that's what they said, is a very great danger today, that, you know, and that's why do you need wisdom, in in what you say, and you know, and how we behave. So, but, as we see, communism, in the end, tolerates no comparative worldviews, and Mao was extreme, and the revolution he had, from 1949 to 1976, was a change of hearts and minds of the individuals. So it was like institutional brainwashing, and he wouldn't accept anything else. And there was extreme brutality during that time, and he wants to get rid of the four old the old ideas, old customs, old habits and old culture. And between 500,000 and 2 million people lost their lives. And Mao itself became his own sort of cult, quasi religion, apparently. And they used to sing songs about him being the great Savior of the people. And then after Mao's death, and the end of the Cultural Revolution, and the Chinese government became tolerant, again towards religion, and registered churches, part of the Free Self Patriotic Movement were allowed to reopen. While in most cases, the authorities turned a blind eye to unofficial churches. And what I thought was interesting was also because we had I remember doing a piece some I don't know, yeah, a few years ago now. Yeah, it'd be last year sometime when we started that saying about the free self church. And how the early rain church? No, no, this is this is the actual Chinese church. And we said that they had to follow what the authorities wanted
Reverend Ben Cooper:the pattern that the government laid out.
Sandra Robson:Yeah, cuz, yeah. I remember in an earlier podcast saying about this. Well, it's interesting how this researcher says that's not actually true, why the Self Patriotic Movement occurred was because they didn't like the Western style of Christianity. And so they wanted to be self sufficient. And so they wanted a Bible based response to the Western dominance of the Chinese church, instead of relying on Western leadership, finance, missionary work, these principles promote, prompted the Chinese church to develop his own leadership and its own work and activities and train Chinese evangelists, rather than relying on overseas missionaries. So that was the purpose. But again, that got infiltrated as well. And then it's saying about the unofficial churches, as I say their problems are that they can get involved in political opposition, so saying sometimes and junction with Western forces some stories in the West here of anti Christian persecution are in fact a crackdown on political opposition, while churches that quietly teach and preach the gospel are often unofficially permitted to continue meeting for worship. So and that was confirmed. unbiased missionaries that if they don't, you know, if they just get on quietly, yeah, just talk about Jesus and keep to the Gospel, keep them small groups they can carry on. And there's amazing things going on among the jugs.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if he kept a scripture, yeah, and it's about Christ, it's fine. It's when the Western eyes Gospel comes in. And you can, you can understand that because we get that over here that that infiltrates us as well, even in the West, so. So it must be very awkward when they look at their circumstances, and you may have the westernized gospel coming over and talking about flourishing as in finances and everything like that. And the gospel peddled for cash when actually, if you just talk about Jesus, you just talk about Jesus, the root of Christianity. And we've seen this before happening in these foreign lands where the Western eyes false church goes in. And it doesn't tie up with their lifestyle and everything but Jesus does. So what we're saying is, if Jesus has spoken about Christ is preached the shakable gospel of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, it will be fine.
Sandra Robson:Yeah, so church, saying that sometimes we might be a bit harsh towards China and what it's doing. And its response to that, you know, this internet business. Um, a lot of that is a concern of Western infiltration, and, you know, trying to undermine the Chinese life. Yeah. And so just like it says, you know, that in the West, we're concerned about what goes on on the internet and online. And so they are to, they're bothered about, you know, extremism, and about forms of Islam and far right content. So in situations like this, we should follow the wonderful example of our Christian brothers and sisters, who long before the regulations even came into force for making plans to adapt and to change their ministries, so as to continue with Brave stand for the truth that never changes the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They just continue to pray for them and for the spread of the gospel, in spite of obstacles, opposition and persecution. So they're not saying that isn't giving a more balanced overview, and then just want to go to early rain, because he did. Say he was very careful to say he wasn't in opposition to the government says in a public declaration, Pastor Wang recognize the authority of the of the Chinese government, but said when human laws contradict the laws of God, Christians must follow God. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:very interested in so
Sandra Robson:follow God, this Yeah, this is from shiner aid. How much more time we got? We're okay. We're good. So there are too many prisoners of faith in China to be able to keep count.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But there's many prisoners of faith.
Sandra Robson:Now. Now. Yeah. Oh. And that includes not only these unregistered churches, but the three self churches as well, but ones that were following the gospel. So that's again, what we need to see that not all those churches were doing what the the authorities wanted them to do. They were following the gospel. And we know because we talked about one of those guys, we did talk about his name, a pastor, and he was a Free Self person, but he wanted to follow the gospel, and he saw the corruption. And they wanted his land, didn't they? They did. And, and so he ended up in prison. And then you've got brothers and sisters who've been trying to show what was going on in COVID. They've ended up in prison. And then you've got this church, which was unregistered, but was one of the largest unregistered churches. And so they've made a real example. I've made an example. And it is very sad what they've done. But as I say, they say to pray for their persecutors. But again, you know, again, there's a sort of purification process going on as well, though.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's a very fine line, isn't it? So
Sandra Robson:going through but as we say, you know, when you know, somebody's taken out, it can encourage others to think about their faith. Yeah. And so then make a stand, which they wouldn't have done if what you know, He said the people hadn't suffered in the way that they are. So, so it was attracting up to 800 people. It had a Bible college and a primary school. And it was just simply too large to be ignored.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It was too large to be ignored.
Sandra Robson:December the second 2018, the authorities seized Pastor Wang and his wife and over 100 church members, and then they close the church accusing Pastor Wang of inciting subversion of this state power and running illegal business operations. And what were they they were that's he was producing Christian books. And he was leading an unauthorized, unauthorized church. So subversion was to lead this church, and his illegal business was producing Christian books. So he was given a nine years prison sentence, which is longest handed out to a church house pastor in more than a decade. Reason, because they proclaim the full gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate authority of the Bible, and ology Christ as the only head of the church, whereas we know that they say, China, the head is Ching ping. And so there's a clash there. For many Christians in China, this is the heart of the issue, that an atheist state is demanding total control over the church. It has driven many Christians to worship in unregistered or underground churches. Yet, even the state's three Self Patriotic church is not immune from persecution. church buildings have been demolished and their cross is torn down. congregations are monitored using face recognition cameras, pastors or state appointed and preaching regulated. So that's where it is now. And Pastor one was a legal scholar, and he was outspoken on religious freedom. And he had an annual prayer meeting, which marked the massacre of the pro democracy campaigners in Tiananmen Square, and that really angered the President so far. And he called for the President to repent of his sins and shipping. And in a public declaration, he has a say, said that he recognized the authority of the Chinese government. But when it contradicted the Bible, then he had to do something about it. And 439 Chinese pastors agreed and signed the declaration as well and call for an end of persecution. And during this time, her the authorities have not allowed him to have any family visits. They kept it banned for three years. His wife could phone but any mention of God and the phone was cut off. They fed him moldy rice. That was years past its sell by date. And they blocked news of him. And there's just been a scrap in 2020. He wrote on mute, I do not open my mouth. They've subjected his family to 24 hour surveillance. They've installed 360 degree cameras in the home, even in the bathroom,
Reverend Ben Cooper:even in the bathroom. Goodness, goodness gracious Marie.
Sandra Robson:They've taken her son out of school. And he now has to go to school that Dave decided and they say, the the Christian organization China, I say that he's become withdrawn and uncommunicative and passed away his parents who are in their 80s they fought being forced to stand to attention in their home. Yeah, so so these are the denial, denial. Reprisals of you know, and then, they've humiliated other people in the church by filling the key holes with glue and covering the doorknobs with paint. They broken into houses. One member of the church house was broken into seven police officers broke into her house and found her son and six other children studying together and she then was accused of running an illegal school, private school. They broke her jaw and remove certain things means they also slashed her car tires so she couldn't get help. So there is
Reverend Ben Cooper:there is there is very serious, a non serious persecutor.
Sandra Robson:And they have made an example of this particular church. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:the leaders of that church are 80 years old, have I got that right?
Sandra Robson:Didn't know that says parents. Parents are in their 80s. So what they're saying is, he's in prison.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So now they're punishing everybody around his family. And that will punish him more because when that news gets back to him that will hit him extremely hard. A messenger of Satan. Yeah, give them strength.
Sandra Robson:So it sounds like triumph of darkness over light, a victory of banality of evil, a thriving church forced to close its members intimidated, humiliated and scattered, but they are not fearful. And that in itself is a sign and a wonder. As a Pastor Wang wrote in his declaration, the Chinese Communist regime is full of fear for a church that no longer fears it a church that has died and has been resurrected. So new leadership has stepped forward. Titus Whoa, is not his real name. He is saying that he's our new converts and baptisms, since that crack down. And he says the example of Pastor Wang standing firmness faith has greatly encouraged him and spurred us on stuff God serve God even more with greater faith fervor. Another church member who's jailed for five days for posting on social media, God, protect your church, lead three of his cell mates to Christ, and baptize them in the sink
Reverend Ben Cooper:in those sounds amazing. This is great. And in
Sandra Robson:Hong Kong, where the Chinese crackdown grows even tighter a pastor wrote in a World magazine with no regrets or fears, we are willing to walk alongside Pastor Wang. It's a dangerous it is dangerous to follow Jesus today, but we're still going to do it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh my goodness. Wow, baptism and imprison salvation in prison. Yeah, God is rescuing God is healing. Yeah, God is moving. So there you go. We got a lot to pray for, you know, praying for China praying for India. Pastor Wang family, the church, you know, the early rain Church and the free churches and all the governments in China. We just lift them up before the Lord.
Sandra Robson:Yeah. And that, you know, the things that have caused them to be suspicious of Christianity today.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Belts Lord, yeah, the truth.
Sandra Robson:Jesus in dreams and visions, and in, you know, in the people in the prisons, and you know, there's another piece in Barnabas about biblical foundation has been set up there are things going on. Because as things get bigger, as we said, you know, deception creeps in wrong teaching creeps in, you know, error creeps in. And that's one of the tactics to take away, you know, the Bible so that these errors will increase. And so yes, I think there's a great need for wisdom and to be on our knees and say, to be following Jesus and not looking to the left or the right, and getting distracted by things and being very careful about what battles we decide to fight, you know, fight, thinking about this country, and certain things that are, you know, on the horizon, things that are coming in, how do we deal with them? How do we talk about things so that we don't go down a path that is destructive, that you know, that we go down the path that brings life, but we do want to stand with our brothers and sisters about these things that are going on, that they've been made an example of. So yeah, we do you know, and we just thank the Lord for their faith and their tenacity. And you know that they continue to stand and give them strength and courage. And in that,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Sandra, you brought some beautiful stuff to the market you always do. And the simple thing that comes to my heart this Morning is because he lives we can face tomorrow. Yeah. And we pray for China and we pray for India. We thank Sandra for what she's brought to us today, wherever you are, please share this stuff out regarding the persecuted church. You can find us on all the social networks have a look at trends World Radio, have a look open doors uk.org online have a look at release International, Barnabas as well, Sandra, yeah. Any more in the mix before we say goodbye to anybody.
Sandra Robson:I'm just so I was saying about Egypt. A note for praise. As I said, more churches have been given licenses. And one of the reasons for this is that there's been redistribution of power, and that President Sisi has given made this guy bolsas farmi. The judge, the highest judge in in the land, a piece of Christian Praise God. And so good
Reverend Ben Cooper:news. Good news. The gospel is good news. So wherever you are across the earth, please lift up our brothers and our sisters in the world of the persecuted church. And also please pray for the UK. Please pray for the church within the UK. My God, strength for you today. Have a wonderful day. This is the day that the Lord has made we shall rejoice and be glad. Never give up. There's always hope. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the way forward God bless you.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church Swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, Apple Music, iHeartRadio, Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.