We're in. We're in. Good afternoon. Good morning, wherever you may be across this earth, we got a couple of little chuckles coming on here. And this is good. This is raw, this is unedited, this is just straight out the barrel of truth straight out the word of God. So we got our friend Roy back with us in the studios. And you can find all this stuff, you know, all over the socials. And you can you can capture Roy, he's got some great writings out there. And he will share what he's going to share in just a few moments. But today's title is the baptism, baptism of the Holy Spirit and the nine gifts, I believe that we're looking at. But wherever you are today, please share all this stuff out that you find online through Buzzsprout and I Heart Radio, and Amazon music and so many other places that this these podcasts are flying backwards and forwards. And we thank you to everybody, everybody 1000s of downloads across the earth. We are blessed to know that you are listening. And you are commenting as well. And I'm going to hand over to her I'm gonna sit back and just listen. And it's good to have him with me. He's good to have him with us. And we are blessed to have him for these few weeks as we're doing these studies. So today's title is baptism the Holy Spirit. Roy, welcome again.
Roy:Welcome. Thank you for having me. I've been privileged to share God's Word with your listeners. You know, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Ben, I think is one of the most misunderstood phenomenons if I can put that in the New Testament Church. I think most think that the moment they're saved, you know, they're baptized in the Holy Spirit. And I think it's important that we know that the moment that an individual repent of their sin and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into the life, the Holy Spirit comes in and does what we call a sanctified work, makes them a new creation and sets them apart. So I would say to all your listeners, irrespective for what denomination that are tied with the moment that they receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior and become a new creation, they are filled with the Holy Spirit, their bodily body becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit. But when we get to Acts chapter one, we start to see what the baptism the Holy Spirit is, and its purpose. And Jesus gives it the title, the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It's not, you know, the Pentecostals don't have copyright on that, you know, so I would say to any charismatics out there, whatever denomination, you know, you're in good company. Jesus called it the baptism in the Holy Spirit. So that's the handle I worked with, because if it was good enough for Jesus, it was good enough for me, Ben. But when Jesus explains that he about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we see very clearly its purpose. And I think that is the most important thing I can say to your listeners right now that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to make Monday seem a lot more colorful, you know, it removes the Monday morning blues, it's not to make the introvert and extrovert it's not to make an individual to be able to swing on the chandeliers and all that it's not even about signs and wonders, or even miracles. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, is has one purpose, and that is to empower us for witness. Nothing else. That's it. That's it, you know. So let's just look at the nature of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, because it's important that we do that, Ben, because we see that there's a new working dynamic that will happen to a Christian, that's, let's, let's take a Christian that gets saved in their teens. And for many, many years, they attend a particular church, they tied, they they break bread, they're in the worship leader, they they baptized in water, they take all the boxes, but they're not baptized in the Holy Spirit. So what is this new phenomena? What what is it? You know? And so, I'm going to explain that a new dynamic happens to the individual, something that's never happened to them before will happen to them. Now, I'm not going to get into how that happens, because that's another strike. But in terms of your listeners to understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the baptism, the Holy Spirit, is an experience that empowers an individual for witness. It doesn't make them a budding evangelist. Okay, it doesn't make them a pastor or a prophet, or an apostle you know, it has nothing about titles, it just empowers. The average run of the mill individual Christian empowers them to witness to overcome fear. Okay, reservations, it is not to make the central introvert who's shy to become extrovert and bold and wild.
Reverend Ben Cooper:All right saying this because a lot People go down the road of oh, okay, I should be a lot different to one. I think I am at this moment. And I have a gift. And I have this, and I have that. But the church and certain ministries are trying to turn people into pastors and leaders when actually they're not. So it's a very deep conversation that we got going on here. And it opens up a lot of envelopes in people's lives. So this is really important. If you are listening in, I know you're listening out there, I just know that this is for you today. This is really important. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, you know, and just just just sit and just try and take all this in because this is really important to us at this time now that God is with you. Yeah, it's really important. I just had to drop that in. I just felt that in my spirit, I just had to say that God is with you. And don't let the church mold you into someone that you're not
Roy:this good. That's good, Ben, that's good. You see, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was always a measure. That means the Holy Spirit came on your visual empowered, and individual, we see it with Samson. Yeah, we could go through load, like Old Testament characters, that, that the Holy Spirit came on, on them in power for particular pearls. And so if you and I live, let's say at the time of the judges, right, if we lived at the way, going way, way back, or even at the time of David, you and I would not get personal revelation, if we read the Torah correctly, if even if the Torah was read to us, you know, we wouldn't get personal revelation, you had to go to the priest you had, you had to go to a prophet. So an Old Testament prophet is very different from a New Testament prophet. You know, today I come across guys that that are fully are trying to fall into the mold of Old Testament prophet and it makes me cringe. In fact, I find it embarrassing actually believe that when you find Christians that feel that the gift of prophecy is very much like an Old Testament office, and it isn't. Anyway, that is another subject for another time, it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:important to speak about it, because we're seeing a lot of we've seen a lot of this
Roy:been damaged a lot, lot, lot of damage has been done, and lives ruined. And not only just recently, but over many, many years, and I'm sure some of your listeners can identify with their family. Okay, so. So what we have is that Jesus comes along, he says, I'm gonna baptize the Holy Spirit of Fire, etc. And I want to take us to John Paul Ryan. Because in John chapter three, we find that there is a key verse three verses that I'm gonna read to your listeners, and just unplug it, unpack it a little bit, because here is to do with John the Baptist. Now, John the Baptist, some say is the last of the Old Testament prophets, some say was the first of the No, that's not really important. We know that he was the one that came prepare the way for the Lord Jesus. And so in here, we're in verse 32, of John Frey says and when he, okay, that this is Jesus has seen and heard that he testifies, no one receives his testimony. So we're talking about his testimony is the testimony of Jesus, right? He doesn't follow with me. Now he who has received his testimony has certified that God is true. For whom God has sent speaks the word of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. Now, right there, you might think, right, you've just contradicted yourself, because you've just said that in the Old Testament, you know, it was always with measure, it was always limited a type? Yes, yes. So the new covenant will come is that the Holy Spirit is going to come without measure. Okay. And that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Yeah. Right. And even Peter getting okay declares, and he quotes Joel, that your sons and daughters will prophesy? Yeah. Because that is a revelation in itself. Because under the Old Covenant, no president can be done. All right, you will not get personal revelation. So now we see that Peter is stamping that seal on it, that Acts chapter two, this is now the Holy Spirit has been poured out in fullness. So when we talk about baptism, Now, depending on your listeners background, if they've got an Anglican background, they might think that that baptism is sprinkling. Well, baptism, and if you get into the Greek, it's very clear to total immersion. You know, the word comes up that Paul Paul says, you know, we are buried buried, it's a very, so under baptism of the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit comes on and were baptized, you know, in fullness. And it doesn't mean to say, we receive the fullness of God. Of course not we will be liberated. This code, you can't even see God and if so, so that's the scale. So just to put it in context of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the baptism is that it's not with measure it's without measure in full On this now, on the new dynamic I'm going to show you from Old Testament where we pick up this new dynamic. So just bear with me. Now I'm going to use a couple examples from the Old Testament. Now, we're going to go right back to numbers, because why back in numbers, the guy's had a bit of what Moses had a bit of a problem. And that was he couldn't see numbers 11 where he can't cope. And so the Lord says to him, and this remember this is under Old Covenant, the Holy Spirit is in measure. Yeah, it says, okay, Moses, what we'll do is we'll get 6070 of your guys and you know, we're, we're getting them to help you. So those 20 forces, so Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord and He gathered 70 men of the elders of the people and place them around the tabernacle, then lo came down in the clan, spoke to him and took the spirit that was upon him and placed upon the 70 Elders. Now, this is key. This is where we will get into the new dynamic. Yeah, this this is very important for your listeners. And as it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied even though they never did it again, in fact, one of them, okay. goes a bit haywire. And Moses said, Are you sellers for Satan? He says, this is in verse 21. Oh, they're all the Lord's people were prophets and the Lord would put his so what we see here is that this empowering that comes upon where the Holy Spirit empowers an individual is that there is like a spirit of prophecy that comes upon them. Now that happened with with with their old soul. Soul, right? He ticked all the boxes in a natural, alright, he was the tallest, the most handsome for you, listeners. Yes. So at a six pack, he was uh, he was there. All right, he was the man was zero. So, of course got it, right. I'm gonna use him. And it says when the sprit law came upon him, it changed him into another man. When it did. He prophesied. Yes. That dynamic and there's other examples where they were arrested, they sent messengers and the Holy Spirit come over, and they prophesied to, and it seems when there is an impartation of the power of God, the Spirit of prophesy, and the Spirit of Prophecy is present. Yes. Now, of course we know of so the first two years of his reign, he was the best king that the world ever know and would have ever known. But he lost the plot. He lost it. And so the next 38 years of his reign had a wobble. Yeah, to say the least. But the point is, this is that God didn't budget with so no, he, he said, he was changing another man and, and so the Holy Spirit empowered him to be the best king that the world would have ever known. He was empowered. So when we jump back to John three, the text you know, and John, the apostle John is is writing here, and you've got John the Baptist, ministering to the to the Lord, Jesus gets baptized in the Holy Spirit. Now, before I get to a key verse in Revelation, is that when when Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, we know he was this, you know, he's got a we know is the second person the Godhead. But I really believe in most of your listeners might struggle with this. I don't believe Jesus could have ever done a single miracle in his childhood, because he was never empowered. So in his humanity as a child growing up, right through his teens, in his 20s, if Jesus wanted to do a miracle he couldn't have it couldn't have no, no, because his ministry began. So timing, absolutely. anointing. Oh, everything. Yeah. And of course, Jesus had to get revelation himself was, yeah, some people get this funny idea that Jesus is a five year I knew who thought he was the Son of God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and he could do anything at that point. Yeah. He had to grow up in that household as a young child, say
Roy:to your listeners, not for one second, did Jesus ever stop being God? No, he didn't know he, he and he was sinless, all the way all the way through all the way through through his childhood growing up. But in terms of the empowering, that didn't happen until the Holy Spirit came upon him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's very key. That's really, really important for us to understand why
Roy:it's happened is because Heavenly Father was empowered him to witness about the kingdom. Yeah, I know that his mission was a little bit more than that. Okay, I know it was about redemption of mankind
Reverend Ben Cooper:at this moment. But this is this is this is really important is it to understand that, that timings and the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes from God. And timings is important that we can't go to a college and give 5000 pound over and by the end of the 12 weeks, they're going to give it to them anointed to do this. And to do that, it has to be a calling. It has to be from God. Absolutely. In his timing. It's in his world. So what Roy has said, right up until this point, is absolutely critical to understand for callings and anointings. This is Jesus. And he didn't do anything until Yeah, this point, right?
Roy:Okay, that's not so all began at the River Jordan through his water baptism. So he was baptized in water, baptized in the Holy Spirit. And we've looked at John three, verse 22, to 32, to 34, where that key phrase, his testimony, and it's all about his testimony, certify that God is true for whom God sent speaks the words of God for God does not give the Spirit by measure. Now, that term that we use now, if if your listeners go to Revelations, 19 Verse, part of verse 10, we see this phrase, I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. I have the testimony of Jesus, worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So what is the spirit of prophecy? Now, I'm not going to confuse your listeners, because this fair is straight. It is straightforward. But you think and wild on minute raw, we talked about the Holy Spirit and you talk about another spirit? Well, let me explain the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Prophecy. When the Holy Spirit manifests in us and empowers us now you want to understand, we're talking empowerment, talking supernatural, to do supernatural things, to move in the prophetic to move in the gifts, see healings, etc. The only way the Holy Spirit can operate is by the Spirit of Prophecy. What is the spirit? It's about the testimony of Jesus. So the whole focus of what we do a sign or a wonder is never about the vessel. It's all about Jesus. It's about him trying
Reverend Ben Cooper:to that's what I have a problem for. They were false prophecy. Oh, it's not about Jesus.
Roy:Right? It it. Yeah, that's back. Now, I want to use an example. Like for example, now, some of your listeners, I spent quite a few of them are ladies. Now I will say to you ladies listening, that I expect in your bedroom, you will have a bottle of perfume. Now that perfume may have sentimental value, because your husband gave it to you, or a friend. And and that but now of course you would, you would never drink it because that purpose is not for drinking. And so you would most probably place it on your wrist or behind your ears or, you know, you get it ask guys put the clown on, don't wait on the old chin and all over and get a bit of burn. Especially on the neck. Too much information, right. So, so in terms of the application, any of your listeners, ladies, guys, two would say that the value of the perfume is in the fragrance. That's right, the value of it. Obviously it's a gift, but it is the quality of the fragrance it produces. Now, let's go back to the perfume. The perfume that you see in the bottle solution is like the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Prophecy is like the fragrance it produces, produces produces. I'm going to use a mescaline illustration, I'm going to be sexist here. Let's just take a train and locomotive train. It can be power it can have 1000s of horsepower, many, many carriages. Okay, well, it's going nowhere without a track. And so the track is like the Spirit of Prophecy, Spirit of Prophecy, but the engine itself is the Holy Spirit. So what I'm saying to you, Ben into your views, if you want to move in the supernatural The only way the only way the only way the Spirit of Prophecy has to be on you. And he he will work in only if it's to do this is authentic, the testimony of Jesus. It's it's never about your eye. It's not it's not about a quick fix. It's very much about being empowered to witness witness about who Jesus is to do with the gospel. It's, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's the greatest safeguard, isn't it? It's about him. So
Roy:the motivation of when we talk about the gifts we're gonna go there in a minute, the gifts the driving force is to actually be used to extend the kingdom of God you know to lead a brother or sister to the Lord that's it. Brothers Sisters Hello now to bring someone so know that to become a brother.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We know we know it's no but this is really important. So what we where we sit now within the UK and across this globe we are hearing about so much prophecy. So many prophets so much. There's so much that when at Surely we can actually see through that there's so much false prophecy. If Jesus isn't the center and more. It's not of God not of the word. Yeah. That that that's really important to understand it and it could when we start talking about Jesus, and we're just talking about the word, and we see someone coming in, we are prophesying Jesus. It's not about royal, you're going to five pound by the end of the day, because human prophecy I'm going to call it is all about self, isn't it? Yeah. self motivation. You know, when actually, it's got not got hasn't got Jesus in it whatsoever. So when we are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the prophecy, the gifts is all about Jesus. Totally. When you talk about Jesus, you forget everything else. And everything is about Jesus. So before you know it, you are prophesying, and you can I use this terminology, become a prophet. I'll be careful, our word stuff. But when you talk, and you speak about Jesus, and the power of God, and you are speaking his word, and you are his instrument, that is the greatest safeguard, isn't it? Yeah. That it's Jesus all the way? Absolutely. Does everything else
Roy:should be our motivation. It hasn't. And I think that leads very well to answering the question such as, how do I know that I'm baptized in the Holy Spirit. So you might have many of your listeners that have loved the Lord for years, like my mother, she, she didn't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until she was in her 60s? I mean, lovely, warm, but but hey, that was just one of those discovers her journey, the journey. And so it's not a time or age that you come into this. It's the journey that you're on as an individual. So how do we know and that one's very simple, it's very simple. There has to be biblical evidence. You know, some say, Oh, I was in a meeting, I got put on my back or I failed, these waves of love seem to go through me or we have all these kinds of manifestations. And they put that down to being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Well, that all of that is is really unbiblical. I'm not questioning their experience. Now. No, I mean, they might have experienced some experience, the Holy Spirit and that, and I'm not making little of that. But to say to talk to me, you might say to me, Roy, well, I was put on my back, I was out for nearly two hours, when I came round, that there was only one person left to switch the lights on the church, it was such a powerful encounter. That was that when I got baptized in the Spirit, but that may have been genuinely unreal for that individual. But that is not evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So we come to what is the evidence? Well, this is an easy one. And I had to repack my theology on this because for years, I believe that if you don't speak in tongues, then you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit. The famous classical Pentecostalism stance is like, if you go to the shoe shop, you buy the shoes, and when you when you bought your shoe to get the tongues with the shoes, you know, sometimes comes with package. And have I'm offended, and it won't be that but but I'm trying to say that, that I felt believe that for many, many years, that if you don't speak in tongues, then then you're not baptized in the Holy Spirit. Now, I have to say, that is biblical women. So if you're speaking in tongues, yeah, that is biblical evidence. But there is other biblical other. Yes. And it's to do with the new dynamic. And the new dam is that the Spirit of Prophecy is upon you. And if the Spirit of Prophecy is on you, there will there will be evidence that you can have a prophesy opera, it was words of knowledge. I was involved with the travelers, the gypsies for quite a quite a few years. And this is where my theology really got blown out of the water in terms of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. So I'm, I'm speaking as a practitioner, not a theologian in that regard. And I saw children homeschooled, get baptized in the Holy Spirit that was saved, and they were young, and they were in these meetings and the Lord was moving. And they'll get receiving the baptism and the Holy Spirit. And why I know that, no, they want speaking in tongues. They were prophesying somewhere laying hands on people and people get in healed immediately. Evidence and I'm using children because I I'm gonna be an example that that the baptism Holy Spirit is not just for adults. All right, it's not it's for get to a certain age or a certain process in your church life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Not in the pros. It's it's the timing absolutely,
Roy:totally. And then we get to the gifts and this this is going to be quite fun. i i I love talking about this part because it it seems to me on my journey is not only in the UK, but around the world. There seems that Western mindset is so ingrained In the church in the West, that we look at the gifts as they're for me there for me ownership. Yeah, okay. And I,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the the church tries to sell you the gift, okay? Oh, I taught ministry.
Roy:Why not? When I was 20 Ben I can remember I got baptized Holy Spirit just just just before my 19th birthday. And by the time I was 20 I was taking them off like, Okay, I operate the gift of tongues, right? I want to do in tongues, interpretation of tongues, and I thought, Oh, I'm gonna operate words and knowledge. And I thought I'm gonna go up to the, I'm gonna go up to the big boys, you know, you know, tell them, you know, you know, go up, you know, operating, you know, divine healing? Well, yes, that's up in the power gifts. You know, that's the top drawer. And what we've we've done, and maybe I'm the only one in the Romea. That would say that what we do because of our western mentality and consumer society, we grade and value the gifts. And yes, we know that the nine manifold gifts that Paul talks about is nine manifold gifts that come with a package that there are three that are revelation gifts, yes, three that are inspiration. And three, the power gives power. And see. So what we do, we put the inspiration here and we put the revelation maybe in the middle where the power gives us top draw, right that that's for the prophets and the apostles that's up there. Now, well, that wrong? Okay, all wrong. Okay, that it's all on the same playing field. So I'm just going to put this out here. That when Jesus got baptized in the Holy Spirit, do you believe that he had all nine gifts? Right? Because I believe with all my heart that the moment the moment, the moment he was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness, he was equipped for every good task in every way in every way before he was tempted. So he had all nine gifts.Okay,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the whole lot. Yeah.
Roy:Through his baptism as before he has before before he even really gets into fasting. Right. So So we're talking he's coming out and he's still wet. Yeah, right. He's still wet. Yeah, he's got all nine gifts. Yeah. Well, when he's actually ministry, he only operates seven. That is true, isn't it? Two are redundant. So I would say to you, Ben, and all your listeners, if you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, you have all nine gifts. Yeah. Well, Roy might only have three. Now. Now you've got oh nine now. On your journey we go. Remember that the gifts are not for us. The gifts are for those that are in need. They're in gifts, where God wants to reach out and bring people into the kingdom and people bring healing. Right. Amen. All kinds of healing. So it's not just physical healing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What's very clear here, Roy, is that the church doesn't give it to us. We can't buy it with liquidity, cash. No, we have it.
Roy:We have been given. If we're baptized in the Holy Spirit, it has been good. You have all nine gifts. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:I don't need to go to a college. I don't need to go to a university. I don't need to go to a conference. No, no, this is important, isn't it? Yeah. That we were in a consumer church. Yeah.
Roy:Now Paul gives us a glimpse of this. All right, because he says, you know that you can all prophesy one by one. You know, and I haven't got time to unpack the because Paul says rightly divide the word of truth. And Paul never contradicted himself. Never. So when you start to look at the gifts, you see that the yeah bent, you might operate prophecy, maybe three or four times in your life, I might operate maybe 1000 times in my life. Maybe there were times when you will operate a word of knowledge, maybe once once, just once and someone else. And the most important thing is this is that we have these gifts and I look as them as tools in a toolbox. This is how I see it. So every single Christian that is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they've been equipped and empowered for witness. So depending on how they want to witness it, depending on how available they make themselves is going to depend upon how many gifts they will operate or if they will ever operate all nine. Yeah, now, let's just clarify a point here. If you have a dripping tap, okay, you invite your plumber to come alright, because I'm going to do that dripping tap wine got the time to do so though. You could have a go at it. You're gonna get the professional when the professional comes. Now you will be alarmed. If this plumber says you say to the plumber when he turns up on your doorstep, right? We've got a dripping tap it most probably just needs a new washer or it might need a new tab. It's nothing really big. You say alright, if he suddenly empties his van of all his tools and puts them on your doorstep. Yeah, to do that job. You think? Oh, that's a bit of overkill. We'll have we get that the plumber is actually The end is going to take the tolls from the fan to do the job is required. So depending where the law takes your listeners in their daily walk will actually govern. You know how God is going to use them. Of course we need to make ourselves available. That's what Smith Wigglesworth said about the secret of the power. That's what he said was availability. He made himself available. That was now of course, he had a significant ministry. And that is because he was an Ephesians four gift. And that means that he he was not just a lay preacher. I mean, he, he he was equipped and empowered. I see Wigglesworth not as an apostle though many call him apostle, five. I would see him here as an evangelist. He was a powerful evangelist. Yeah. All right. He could teach a bit he wrote a few books, but really his gifting excelled, seen people saved and incredibly healed. Now, some of your listeners night might not have liked the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth. And that's fine, you know? Because, you know, he was a very in your face, Yorkshireman. He certainly was he was very abrupt, he used to punch people, you know, any. Now you wouldn't do that bandwidth. Now, now, so really, what I want to sum up on this is that if we're baptized in the Holy Spirit, these nine manifest, nine manifold gifts are given and they lay within us. Now the Spirit of Prophecy actually activates them. Because it's to do the testimony of Jesus. Now, what you may get is that we will grade them, as I said earlier, is that as a 20 year old I had, I was like, that gets that gets annoying. So now Paul says, you know, desire, gifts is our app, and that you may prophesy. So there has to be because God's not going to take over your free will and rip it out of you. He, he, he's going to work with you in the Holy Spirit, just like so. That's my own isn't his soul was changed, right? But he had freewill when he blew it. Within two years, we can get baptized in the Holy Spirit. And we might blow it in three weeks, you know, I'm saying, you know, the flesh gets gets in the way, right? So, of course, we're under grace. And Saul wasn't born again. But you're getting where are we? Yeah, we get we'll get it. So. So with these nine gifts, so what you have you have what they call the inspirational gifts that are activated by the Holy Spirit inspiring us. Yes. Okay. So like tongues, interpretation of tongues. So those are inspired, then we get the revelation gifts, which is the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and the discerning of spirits now that is activated, where the Holy Spirit, just the spirit of prophecy comes in where you get revelation, and you might not physically see it, but there is a conviction, there is my revelation. And so yeah, there might be some inspiration that that is required to actually say, to that person, or, or to say it out in a public meeting. Yeah. And then you get to the power gifts. Now, for me, this is an easy one that now is that we put the power gifts way up there. And the power gifts is Yeah, it's like divine healing. Can I use the word divine healing because I don't want to just say healing knows there's a lot of false idea of healing, but I'm talking mine healing, right? And then there's the working of miracles, and then you've got faith. Now, let's, let's just think about this. If this journey were on, as we go along, the more and more spiritual would become, and as I get more spiritual as I become more holy, yeah, as we go up the ladder progress, and we get to the stage where Wow, oh, I can move into the power gifts, then if you get to that level? Yeah. Why in the power gifts? is the gift of faith? Why is it that higher, you don't want the point I'm making is it doesn't need to be there. Exactly. Right. It's all on the same level on the same level. There'll be times when you and I one moment because we operate in like a prophetic word. And there'll be the next moment we need to operate a gift of faith or divine deposit of faith, Revelation to move an act in a particular way in a particular situation. So the light deposits but all of those gifts are never for us. So if you said to me, Roy, you know how many gives you I will say, I've got nine but anyway, I'm I don't really own them. Because let's take divine healing. If Mrs. Smith is in terrible pain, and she calls you Ben, and you go to her as as a Chapman or a pastor, and you go to see Mrs. Smith. You're not going to go into that rooms at all. I've got to think if I've got the gift of healing right here, who will old automatically you will begin to pray that God will healer? Well, what actually happens is this is that it doesn't require if you carry the gift of healing for because the healing is not it's, it's not for you. It's for her. It's, here's the one that's sick, she needs it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And I'm not a healer, correct Christ. Absolutely. So it comes back to the same word, Jesus. So
Roy:when so when we use men like Wigglesworth, yes, he was exceptional evangelists that had a very strong emphasis on divine healing. Right? It doesn't mean to say that every single evangelists has to have a strong emphasis on divine healing. And so even if you're not an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, Teacher, your your Mrs. Smith or Mr. Smith in a church, that's that's that, you know, doing your bit. I want to say God, can you do justice? Justice? Just as powerful? Okay. In your own place? It Yeah. Oh, that is required for oats for Pastor bear? No, no, no. All of us because is the act of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is empowers us to witness. And so the working out of that miracle is never about oh, my anointing, or anything about that it's to do with the need of that person. And I have found when I've moved them in meetings, when I say moved in meetings where the pastor, as a speaker would say, look, will you pray for people? Right? And I will go and pray. In some churches, what I find is that as I lay hands on people, the prophetic revelation is actually drawn out of me. Yes, you know, it's not like I start to hear the voice of God. But as I pray for people who pray, the hunger and the thirst of an individual sucks that revelation draws it out of here. And it's not like I don't have control. But in some cases, I've been in some churches, where I've gone mentioning no names, you know, where that even getting into the pulpit before I preached this such a heaviness on it, I'm thinking, wow, I've got to preach through a walk here. And so even at the end of it, you're finding that you're wading through mud, and there's like a spirit of oppression on the meaning I agree that that that is, there is nothing there to draw no the gifts out into the congregation or to an individual. Understand I've been at an airport where suddenly I've had a word of knowledge for a complete stranger bank, bank bank. And that's happened only a few times, I have to say only a few times, I've been in airports many, many times, hundreds of times. But out of hundreds of times, it's a couple of times, where it was like a one pager but the
Reverend Ben Cooper:prompting the prompt, that's the wrong word.
Roy:I think the need of the individual even though that this particularly into I'm thinking of a particular airport, this particular person was not even saved. Right? Not even so. Yeah, that was crying out to God. Yeah. And I just was prompted by the Holy Spirit to say that now I didn't have the privilege of leaving that person to the Lord. Maybe we pray that she did. But in that scenario, which was quite rare, is that is to me classical of how the gifts are operating, because the gifts are not mine. No, it's not. This is mine. Because on our turn it off. It's all about the testimony of Jesus. It's all about him. So I just hope that's helped somehow, it really brings some clarity
Reverend Ben Cooper:interested to that. Yeah. And it is. It's all given. We cannot buy it. We Yeah, it's there. Yeah. It's there you have it. It's within you. Yeah. And it's all about Jesus. Yeah.
Roy:There is a verse in Scripture, where some of your listeners might, you know, come back and say what is say he distributes the gifts as he will. Alright. Well, he distributes as He wills. Yeah. Not to you, not to you, the person who needs it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So we're an instrument. Oh, we're
Roy:a vertical vessel. We
Reverend Ben Cooper:are just insurance vessels.
Roy:The whole problem, the philosophy of law church in the West is about ownership.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I am you know, I am. I am we're naturally we're operating on we're not on when we should.
Roy:Yeah. If I struggle with the whole concept of self declared profits and self declared different muscles. Yeah. I think in all my years in ministry, I've been in ministry for a long, long time long, I've only come across what I call one authentic apostle. All right, and this particular man that I won't say his name, right, he's one of the humblest men today. He works with an organization and he's helping the persecuted church around the world. And what I'm about to say might give the clue away who I'm referring to, but he found himself right in a prison. Right, as a born again, Christian, and, and he was persecuted and he was put in prison, and he served in a prison and he was put in prison with 12 of men of ISIS. And he had to spend several days in a cell with men from ISIS and they all knew that he was a pastor. Right now to me that man, okay, is a genuine, an apostle. Yeah, he would, if you said to him, he wouldn't. So humble and I see a lot of Paul in him. Like, for example, Paul says, I've learned to be without, without this man is learn to be with how you talk about his suffering this man has, in terms of, of the apostolic authority, which the West seems to focus on, you know, overseeing plant in church, this man is going around ministering to pastors that are struggling because of persecution. And so today, I would say to your listeners, there are apostles around today not of the apostles of the first century, you know, Dalek misery that Paul talks about apostles, prophets of angstroms, there are but they're rare. Most people that become claimed to be apostles, or basically, are very good at marketing. They know how to brand it. Yes. It's, that's the gift, and God uses it. And hallelujah, he uses it. And it's the same with the Prophets. Prophets today are nothing like the mandate is nothing like the Old Testament prophet. Because I'm often asked, well, if a prophecy is not fulfilled, that that brother should shut up or that sister should shut up? Well, no, the mandates changed. You see prophecies will cease. And also you get conditional prophecies and unconditional about the prophets of the Old Testament, when they prophesied, they prophesied as the audible voice of God, right, which would have to be fulfilled in every shape and form because they're unconditional, right? Doesn't matter what you and I think this is God speaking. And this because the Holy Spirit was given, you know, with measure, and so he had to raise the Elijah's and lashes up, you know, and the Daniels, etc. He had to raise them up to speak on his behalf. Today, he doesn't need to do that, how to do that. So that so the New Testament prophet today is when he prophesies, it is conditional, and it will fail and many will not come to pass because out of the disciplines. You see people think that prophecy is all about predicting. You know, you get me going on another subject, you are promising. It's good, it's fast. And I I teach this a lot in seminars and conferences about the nature of the prophetic and I think it's one of the most abused aspects of Christianity today. We've never seen it before aspect of prophecy. Absolutely abused. It really
Reverend Ben Cooper:is. Roy, we've reached the bell Yeah, I'm gonna prophesy was done. Praise God. It's been. It's been so good. It's been so good to have Roy the other side of the mic and God willing, we might be I get some more. And you can find him Roy. How can we find you?
Roy:Yeah, you can email me roy_warren@hotmail.com. Love. I'd love to hear from you if they want to do that. Yep. Yeah, that's good.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Sounds good. Nothing else to say. It's just so good to listen, to listen for hours and you can find ROI so easy to find him. May God bless you today. Wherever you are today. We thank you so much wherever you are, and whoever you are, you know, keep in the Word of God. God is with you. Have a blessed day in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church Swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, Apple music, iHeart radio, Google, Alexa, Mixcloud, Facebook and YouTube.