Good afternoon and God bless. Thank you so much for sharing all these podcasts out that we're doing here from Elim church and we thank you for joining us across the world. Whatever your timezone may be at this moment in time. We got our good friend and brother in the studio today and we've got Roy and he's on his way back to New Zealand in the next couple of weeks. You've been here for four months and he's been bobbing around in ministry and and everything's been going on in his world and we got the title of today's podcast Have you all been following this stuff out then we know there's been many bringing feedback through so today's title is the world or sorry the work environment dynamics let me get me tongue you know, in speaking all day long, you know, we tongues are tired and the eyes are tired. I'm tired. The working dynamic of the spiritual realm you can tell this is not edited in any way straight out of the studio. We don't edit anything is just as we are. The clangs and the crashes are tea and coffee beans slurped and all the stuff that goes with it. This is just real straight recording straight off the top. So Roy, we thank you so much for coming back. This is the last time we'll see you this year.
Roy:Yeah, well, thank you for inviting me back. And it's been an honor to be with you two or three times through the summer. It's been a glorious and what not known as summer lightly since 76. Rarely, it rarely pulled the stops out for a spin off for
Reverend Ben Cooper:you. All for you my friend. Yeah.
Roy:My kind of weather is really Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's not mine, give me the snow lord.
Roy:I'm heading back to spring. So that's all good brother praise the load.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right? Let's go we got 45 minutes of some real serious listening,
Roy:okay, there's just some few errors around this whole area of the spiritual realm. First, I just want to look at Satan's influence from the spiritual realm into this realm, then look at some spiritual laws that actually govern Satan's influence, all in line with the sovereignty of God, obviously, then we're going to quickly touch on the pursuit of legal right, that is something that a lot of Christians are caught, sort of ignorant of about this legal right, then we're touching on a couple of breaches of significance. We've looked at a bit of the breaches, I think, on our last time we were here. And then finally, if we've got time, the nature of the Antichrist in the Great Tribulation, because there are some real funny ideas about, you know, what the Antichrist is, Who is it, you know, let alone who at be, but in terms of will he be possessed by Satan himself, that kind of thing. So we're just gonna, if time allows touch on them. So quickly moving on to Satan's influence? You know, it is clear that Satan does not dwell in the physical realm, then, and he doesn't, it doesn't have to, he may want to, but he can't. And even if Satan decides the day, right now, I'm going to go on holiday. And he said, tells all his legions or of demons just to do nothing. You would find that in time, the human race will still have a big issue and possibly try to destroy itself. Even if Satan does anything more. Nothing, nothing else. Yep. And so the human race is really, you know, I believe in the doctrine of total depravity that every single man, woman and child is to be born again, in the spirit of God. Yeah. And so the damage is done.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Can we sorry, before you go on any further, you say the damage has been done? Would you say that's come from the garden from the fall?
Roy:Yeah. From from Adams initial rebellion. Yeah. And so man becomes mortal man. And so obviously, Jesus had to come, because we're all dead spiritually, he had to come. And then we need to be repent of sin. And most of your listeners will understand that. But the point I'm trying to highlight at this stage is that, that we think, Oh, Satan is doing more than he's doing. Basically, the world is, is on on a path, that the momentum is already taken in there. So I just want to clarify that is saying the sides today, I'm gonna go on holiday, down the road, the human race will still be on the brink of annihilation without the Lord stepping in and coming back, as recorded in Matthew that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24, about his timing of when he returns. Because if he doesn't return on time, then there's a problem.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There is Yeah.
Roy:So Psalm 82 is a good good chapter for your listeners if they want to understand, you know, Satan's influence, because in Psalm 82, it's the principle chapter that gives us an understanding of the as divine counsel that is set by God's sovereign will. And we're going to look at that a little bit later in the terms of job. All right. So there are degrees of influence that Satan has without himself physically being present in the physical realm. So let's start with the most common. And if I put it in percentages, I mean, it's always dangerous to do that. But let me just have a shot at this. I would say over 90%, right, of the stuff that's going down of Satan's influence is through demonic oppression. Whoa, okay. So let me let me just sort of unpack that a little bit. You see, demonic oppression is so so common. Every, every one of us, you and I, even though we're born again, the Spirit of God, the Spirit filled, we are vulnerable to being oppressed. Now, if oppression is not addressed, then eventually that will lead to depression. And eventually, it can lead to, you know, all kinds of mental illness. So what Satan is about is that we are oppressed. Now, of course, if and I'm talking to Christians now, though, obviously, we we have the law, we can take authority over stuff. And I have to say, I did like what our friend Steve Ellis said a few months ago about about spiritual warfare, about Namie climate, bind it lucid and the kind of fluff that's around the churches. And I have to say, I really sort of applaud Steve for that, because there is a lot of stuff out there that that really is completely an era where we've got this kind of authority, and we just name it and climate kind of thing. And we even sort of, you know, come against Satan, and we shake our fists in this, you know, and feel that, you know, it's gonna, you know, put him in his place. But what happens with demonic oppression? I guess this is without over spiritualizing it is, is that when you start to look at depression, and then look at mental illness, because that is very common in the world today, mental illness extreme. And even let's let's use extremes, for the sake of the listeners, is that if you had 100 People that are psychotic, serious, psychotic issues, split personalities, if you looked at that 100, then maybe only a couple would actually be demon possessed. We feel that when we talk about mental illness straight away, we go out right away, that they got that they got a demon in the mix here, you know, and that is very naive that I've been in.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's refreshing to hear that, isn't it? Because so often in the evangelical church is put in such a way if someone is depressed or oppressed, or just fed up and down in their boots, or that you've got a spirit of something that's not quite right. When that you can't be going it because straightaway says greater is He There's me than even Whoa.
Roy:Absolutely. Absolutely. And when I just want to clarify is that I'm a great advocate for deliverance ministry. Yeah. Okay, I am an and some of your listeners who know me know that, hey, that, you know, I've had experience in that field over maybe 3040 years. But just to unpack that a little bit, because in a situation of deliverance, you see you what you're dealing with is yes, there is a spirit that is formed a stronghold in the mind. Okay, so the issue is in the mind, you know, take every thought captive. So when we talk about oppression, oppression will lead possibly to depression, and then people can have some real mental illness. So the mind starts to misfire, and there are problems. Now, I have been involved in I've seen where, where you're going to deliverance ministry, and you address like, let's say, a spirit of addiction, let's just use that as an example. And that's really, really common. Now what, you're not dealing with a demon that's in this. So what happens when, when the individual is getting set free, you're breaking the stronghold that it's in his mind. So all you would get is what I what I call flesh manifestations. So you will have manifestations but a demon is not coming out of the individual. This this is this is crazy theology, where it's not even theology is deception, when you know, people will cough up stuff. And yeah, there is a lot of flesh and it can be messy, but you're dealing with a stronghold that's in in the mind. And so the flesh is ugly. Yeah, so it will manifest very big difference. So when you go to the next level, this is Satan's next inference, which is possession. I want to say to all your listeners, demon possession, is extremely rare. And I'll say that, again, I agree, is extremely rare. It's not common. Now, of course, in certain places of the world, it's more common than not simply to do with the ACO, and the practice and this comes back to legal right, and give him permission. So when we talk about possession now, I've been involved in ministry for over 40 years, Ben and I was very blessed and fortunate to be involved with with the Gypsy revival back in the early 90s. Now I worked amongst them for for three years now 1000s upon 1000s got saved. Yes, there was deliverance ministry, the kind of deliverance ministry that, you know, I've just described, where we're dealing with addictions, we're dealing with habits where the, the flesh is ugly, and, you know, you don't crucify flesh you, you know, sorry, you crucify flesh, you don't cast our flesh so, so there is an element where you have to deal with the old man and pull fault with that around the wrestle the old, old Saul of Tarsus. But on three occasions, out of three years, and we're talking 1000s, upon 1000s, on only on three occasions that I come across genuine demon possession. And when it happens, and when you see it, you you do not need the gift of discernment to know that because there is a supernatural manifestations. I've seen it, I've witnessed this. So when you see supernatural manifestation, you know that what you're dealing with is not
Reverend Ben Cooper:flesh? That's correct. I've seen this. Yeah. And I've dealt with it not that long ago, actually. So I know exactly what you're saying. Which and it was very in, you know, that you know, that you know,
Roy:shot. Now, without going into particulars. I just want to say that, that Satan's influence, then tight is through demon possession. Okay, he has influenced through that. Now what a lot of Christians mistake they think that demon possession is that, that this person now has a fallen angel living in a demon, well, Jesus, he always dealt with unclean spirits. He always spoke, and he addressed an unclean spirit. So we're dealing with spirit, we're not dealing with celestial beings, that phone, that is a different ballgame. So when we start to get nearer the great tribulation or the tribulation period, and as I've said on a few of other occasions about that, that things are changing, and I use that term spiritual climate, okay. But the fact is that things are getting so intense that there will be more and more breaches, you're going to find that that possession is going to become more common than it is at the moment. I mean, it varies depending where you are. So just to clarify, what I'm saying here, is that demon possession is not a fallen angel that now dwells within an individual. Alright, so there are two kinds of Spirit at work and and what I mean by that is that one is celestial because celestial is a spirit, but it has fallen because it is a creative being creative being right. So we see, we see that in one one, Peter 319, is where Jesus goes down and he preaches to the spirits in the prison, right? Now, they are the spirits or the Nephilim. Right? Because the they'd be in a hybrid race, they are disembodied spirits. And they are the demons that are associated throughout the New Testament. But then we find that you've gotten to Peter to four, he talks about angels and that Jesus is there, sorry, Peter is addressing the fallen angel beans that have been put in chains into the bottomless pit. Okay, so straight away, there are two different areas that we're looking at. And people get confused. This, the spirits of possession are the disembodied spirits of the hybrid Nephilim. That's their origin. Whereas the angelic beings that are fallen, that came in and and laid with, with women, they've been put into the bottomless pit, and that as we know it, and a lot of time we open opened up. Okay, so I hope that just clarify Does, does ROI,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but I also think that need to make very clear is within the West, within the church, possibly as well, in the UK, everything is dramatized a lot. Yes. So we have a lot of drama within church where, you know, showmanship, you know, people spewing this app that up, and all that, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yes, there's a lot of theatrical performance in and all that when actually exactly what you're saying. It is very few and far between when you actually come across someone that has a demonic spirit within them that he's really oppressed and demonic. It is very rare. And I would say that as well. The 25 years I've been in ministry, I can probably count just one almost to two encounters. Yeah. But when you know, you know, you and the other one was about six weeks ago. Yeah. And I know, you see a supernatural supernatural realm. So within the West, this is very interesting to hear that everything is done a lot of performance and you gotta have deliverance and you got a base You got that and you won't actually know. Yeah, even when you talk about mental health, right? Even when you look in that area, especially within within certain churches around here, you know, you can just have an off day on Sunday. You got a spirit of depression. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Rather than just I'm just off, I'm just fed up. I'm just down on just where is a human being? Yeah. And I think the church puts a lot of Spiritual Emphasis too much. On really when actually I'm just I'm not not good. Yeah.
Roy:Yeah. A lot. You see the Spirit oppression that we all get every we all get, we'll all get it can be addressed. taking every thought captive, and all the all the tools are there in God's word.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Quietly and still, isn't it? Yes, yeah. You don't need
Roy:to live, of course, certain individuals that are vulnerable, where it forms a stronghold and or it can be, as I say, addiction or a habit. And it becomes a struggle where they no longer can do what they want to do, and it controls them. Then there is the ministry of deliverance. What that does, it gives them the foothold to break out. The worry, freedom, freedom, it empowers them to do that by the Holy Spirit. Amen. So you don't cast there. You know, there is nothing to cast. There's
Reverend Ben Cooper:no cast out. Yeah, of course, there
Roy:is manifestations. I mean, I've seen some really crazy stuff of people's flesh. You know, and I think even with the Toronto, for example, that a lot of that was misread. Well, the Holy Spirit was moving. And they said, Well, this is the Holy Spirit. Well, it wasn't the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was coming upon individuals and flesh was manifesting. And so what should have happened is that they should have been ministered to, to bring healing because the manifestations was was the result of the Holy Spirit coming upon him. Yeah, we're talking many years ago, the Toronto now but even like, today, what will happen? And, and I know I'm going to see more of this as I go back to New Zealand, because things are moving quite fast in New Zealand, with with the churches and the falling away, etc. Is that that there is going to be greater influence of Satan in the area, or have other breaches. Now what I mean by that, okay, okay, is, for example, I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, come out. And I don't mean to be but so your listeners, just hear me out before you shoot me. The first initial breeches that you would find that come from from the spiritual realm into the physical realm will be images of light and sound. And generally what happens and this is not common, but it will come will come is that we get the term ghosts. Yeah, okay. Right. Yeah. What are some of your listeners? I don't believe I believe in ghosts, right. All I will say is this now, what a ghost has become? Yeah, there's a lot, a lot of mythology around all of that. But what there is, there is clear evidence where these spirits are seeking to break into. So what you're actually doing, you get images of light, and sound, then the next level up, which is stronger, which is a poltergeist now, poltergeist they think doesn't exist, what some evidence there is, and this is where the Spirit is able to actually move objects and cause things to happen to move. Now, when you deal with demon possession. These are the manifestations that come out on when someone has jet as generally got an unclean spirit in them. So it's not a case of they don't exist, is that it's like that, that Satan wants greater influence into the physical realm. And these unclean spirits are seeking, you know, to push a break in and and because the days we're living in, are getting more and more intense and closer to to the judgment. And the great tribulation, as we've talked about, for many, many years as the church is that these symptoms will become more and more common.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think we're I think we're there and I actually think that we're in this position you talk about because when you think of the atmosphere, the climate or that whatever way you look at that and deal with that. I believe that there is a breach at this moment. I believe that we are feeling it I believe that some have seen it and it has frightened a few people and the conversations I've had with a few people there is something going on in that spiritual world that is punching the fabric of this natural world. Yeah, so I don't think that we are off point I think that this is this This podcast is the time and is correct. And I believe within the Church of the West it's going to have its eyes opened to that spirit world punching into this physical world and I think we're there
Roy:Yeah. And I think most prayed the the media and that will completely misinterpret they will these manifestations I mean obviously when you get to Revelations nine verses one to 12 that is the the great breach celestial breach, where celestial beings literally break into the physical realm because God in his sovereignty is given permission to allow it to happen in the time of, of His judgment upon the earth. And so that leads me to the spiritual laws that govern Satan's influence and in the physical realm. Spiritual Laws are out there and a lot of us are ignorant of the spiritual laws or let me just give you a few samples to your listeners, what spiritual is what a typical typical series of spiritual laws like the wages of sin is? Death. Okay, so that is that is spiritual law. Now, it doesn't matter about our opinion, Ben, the fact Okay, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Hallelujah, we know that Jesus came, and that spiritual law was used big time. All right, this is spiritual law, then you've got your right what your so sadly, that is a spiritual law that has been abused, and led a lot, a lot of churches down a road of terrible deception, with prosperity and all that kind of junk. But yet we understand in terms of sin, when we talk about sin and our nature, you reap what you sow, that is a spiritual law. It's not a spiritual tool to actually make yourself rich. So it's a spiritual law, then you've got without faith, it is impossible to please God. Here's years ago, and I suspect some of your listeners will chuckled to this. That there you've got the whole faith movement, you know, Copeland, and Hagen, all those guys. And they actually see faith as a force when faith is not. And I challenged that many, many years ago. And today, faith is a spiritual law. And it's always been a spiritual law, and only became active at the moment that Adam blew it because
Reverend Ben Cooper:you didn't need it. Of course, you do not need it is it absolutely wasn't needed. No, no. So yes,
Roy:even Lucifer, yeah, his worshipers need faith. They need faith. Yeah, I need faith, if they want to empower be empowered by Lucifer, those that practice the local life, you have to practice faith, it's not a false, it's a spiritual law, that they actually consume mates. And that's my definition of what faith is because there isn't one in the Bible. There's a description in Hebrews 11. One, but my definition is that of faith, it's a spiritual law, that constant mates and our relationship with God, I cannot have a relationship with Heavenly Father without faith has nothing to do with force, though. Okay. So when we start talking about spiritual laws, it's important that we, we see how they work in the spiritual realm. Because Satan has to play by these rules. He, he can't, he can't break the laws, he may try, but he can't because God is sovereign. So you have this divine counsel, and it's a big subject. And I could do a whole series on the divine counsel, that that exists. Employ even touches on in Ephesians, you know, about principalities and powers and all that kind of stuff. Well, during our covenant, and we're going to Joe, because I think this is a good example, in Joe, where you see the Satan going to and fro throughout the earth and our causes in the spiritual realm. We also get a snapshot in Revelations at Pergamon, where he had his throne. So there was a period of time that if you went to pick him out, and of course you want literally see Lucifer sitting on his throne, in the spiritual realm he was, but what you had was this massive, big altar. That was an abomination to God. And what was going on today that that throne is elsewhere, because kingdoms have gone and Carmen so Satan's throne, and Satan is not omnipresent as we know, he can't be in two places. No, it can only be in one place at a time. And so just shows you how limited limited Yeah, he's. So anyway, we've the whole job thing, and this is important for your listeners, is that I've heard a lot of rubbish over the years preached on job. And if you've listened to some of these sermons that I listened to over the years, you think well, our heavenly Father is egotistic you know, well, he definitely is not heavenly Father is perfect in every way loving, absolutely loving. So, when you go into the scenario, what we read in Job chapter one, you can start to see that there is legal right there and you start to see legal right is that yeah, you know, job was with with with, you know, not without sin, but he hadn't charged God and, and father was very confident. That job was not turning, cursing because God's Will knowing he knows. No, but Lucifer, right. Yes, I made a charge. Now, when you look at what takes place in a typical morning of job by dies lost everything. One of the amazing things in there is that you think to yourself, wow, he's got these beautiful daughters, he's got these sons. And, and this tragedy happens where this grass gust of wind comes on. And they're crushed the killed all of them. Well, the reason that happened wasn't what was going on God was on some egotistic trip is that Joe had not sanctified his children, because if you read in verse four and five, he regularly might sacrifice burnt offerings. And so he covered them. So Satan could not have a legal claim there was a spirit, their spiritual laws are in place where Satan is always looking for legal right to get in. Correct. And so it is very clear that on this occasion, Job had not made because if Job had God could not have breached, burn offerings, you know what I'm saying? God, the offerings were made he, this is where we get the doctrine of dedication from have one of Joe one, verse four and five, where we got his, the word there is sanctified to set apart. And so this is how we dedicate our children. This is where we get dedication, occasionally, even and I know it's a strange one, but that's where it comes from. It's where it comes from. But when you look at it, it may seem harsh, you think, well, that's a bit harsh. Well, no legal right is legal, right? It's not wrapped up in emotion. Okay, it's straight. God is a God, who's just okay. Yes, he's merciful is abounding in grace, but he cannot break the rules for anybody, or at what I'm saying, God is so Justin holy, he can't bend the rules. He may love you the perfect man. Perfect. He he cannot go against his word. You know. So when you look at that, you can see that that we see there is legal right. And there was a legal claim. Now, of course, the outcome is wonderful. Amen. And that just gives you a feel of that. There is I mean, of course, you've got Akin. Let me just use this as the last example. For for legal right. The classic example were the children of Israel going to Canaan. You know the story so well, because the Lord wants the first fruits. He said, Yeah, it's all to me. Joshua gets it. Everyone gets it apart from Aiken, I can feel odd. I know bit of plunder under the carpets. So when you get to Joshua, chapter seven, you see the wheels come off because he sends a few 1000 men to take them out. We can do that. And 36 innocent men die. Joshua is gobsmacked. Nick is take off work going on. Yeah, you know the story. And then the Lord just is a the sin in the camp. There's legal right. And not until that was done and resolved. Could could things continue. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:since there's door, there's always a door out there somewhere. There somewhere where there's a legal right where the door is opened to the activity of Lucifer, absolutely. Straight in the door.
Roy:That leads me to my third point of the pursuit for legal rights. Satan is pushing and pushing all day legal to gain legal access. One of the reasons why we have guardian angels is to stop any legal breach. Okay, or any legal claim on you. All right, we think it's just that nothing ever happens to us. Are you with me?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. But so are you referring to Psalm 91? Where he says, Oh, come on mind is concerning. You are doing all their ways?
Roy:Correct? Correct. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, very good. Yep. Without opening all of that it's God is absolutely sovereign over our lives. But Satan even that is continuing to look for permission. Right and and so yeah, we repent daily and stuff and we can bang out Yeah, you know, I'm saying is that you know, things because we're not perfect. We are always vulnerable to negligence not on around negligence but on the people's and
Reverend Ben Cooper:so the door is almost wide open all the time, isn't it? Really so? Yeah,
Roy:but we've got that wonderful thing like that. We mustn't forget that that Satan says you've put a hedge around job Yes. Okay. Finally hedge and I've got to say is that when you're born again your spirit filled is why you've got those angels there is that he protects us so we can have an incredible piece about the uncertainty that's coming you know, we've inflation as it is what's going to happen who's the next prime minister you know, we come up and we can still have a wonderful piece and then assurance eight God's got this is sovereign. Even though we might not even know I
Reverend Ben Cooper:make a mistake or something happens to the hedge around us repentance. Yeah, he God is sovereign and we have a fiery hedge. And there are angels put to flight concern in all our ways when we say the wrong thing at the wrong way. But yeah, there is there is always a door almost Satan's trying to keep his foot in the door. Yeah,
Roy:yep. And You know, as time moves forward, you know, there is going to be greater uncertainty Ben in this world. And that's why you're going to have the falling away and it's going to get traction is because sadly, a lot of Christians have never been taught.
Reverend Ben Cooper:How far do you say we're in it over? If
Roy:I believe we've been it for a while, how long do
Reverend Ben Cooper:you reckon? Five, six years? Seven years? It's been a steady momentum, isn't it?
Roy:Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised that the real push that started is since COVID. I would say that COVID is currently playing the agree. Daughter Yeah, and I would say it for me it's made me more aware how weak and how immature a lot of Christians are now don't listen to my thing on beating up the church I'm not I'm not saying that. I know a lot of good sound Christians you know, that are stable and but when I'm fearful of that you can have a massive gathering of a lot of Christians out Yeah, crowd anything. Amen. This is good. But you just wonder, Where are their foundations?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Where do we sit? You know, where
Roy:do this foundational thing you know, the classic parable, foolish man, sand, you know, wise man rock. And I'm thinking, Oh, what, what's driving these people to attend? Is it because their friends go? Is it because you know, the preachings? Why is the person driving? Or are they going to give because it's an act of worship? Now, I can't answer the how we come up. But with the COVID thing. It's it's, it's, it's really put the lights on and sadly, I know of people that no longer go to church. In fact, there's many that will not go back to church since COVID. All right, they definitely will. And we've seen it, you know, not forsake the gathering of the brethren. And they are justifying staying at home now. Because they don't need to because they can watch it all online, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:so there's a danger to the online stuff as well as a blessing. And there's an awkward, it's a very fine line isn't it's okay to capture it when you can't get there. Yeah, as often as you can. The Scripture says, get together as often as you can for don't forget the Forsaken of coming together. Yeah. So the fellowship of brothers and sisters is where you edify one another, you're building one another up, you're encouraged one another, you're you're in the presence of God, I know where he's on the president on the opponent. But it's so important to gather together because we are in the great falling away, and that the COVID what it done for me personally, was to open my eyes to see where we really sit. And it made me look at
Roy:me. Yeah. And I found, you know, there is a very high level of immaturity in because literally, you know, and I don't mean, just on the doctrine with a fence. Yeah, you know, people get offended, and they spit the dummy thing. Whoa. I know we get off point here. But But you see, that you see is classic, because that is going to accelerate. When people realize that hear me, you know, listeners to hear me, you might be born again, spirit field, but it doesn't mean to say that you will not lose your house. That's correct. Okay. You could find yourself you could lose your job, lose your house lose everything. And would you blame God for that to walk over? That to happen to me? Her lying on a moment? Oh, you know what I'm saying?
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, is that what you're saying? Yeah, you could we could lose absolutely everything and be left on the street. And God is still sovereign spot on. Spot. That's it?
Roy:Yeah. You only have to look at the boys in the New Testament. i Oh.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that makes perfect. It's biblical fact, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I think what what is making this really difficult for the church in the West, is where we've been hammered and pulverized with this prosperity gospel, you're gonna gain you're gonna have money, money, money, money, money, cars, cars, cars, business, then suddenly, the great falling away. Everything's happening. It's made a lot of people a lot of Christians, like, on a bit of a spin, what is going on God, but
Roy:can I can I just say just just to sort of just bring a balance on, you know, because because I agree with you totally. Ben, is the fact that the church is not going to go on its last legs. The church is now victorious. It's gonna, yes. And the church, you know, we were talking about the church, the church, you will see signs and wonders. I believe that to Jesus Christ, it that the Church will go yes, the kingdom of God is advancing. So we might have a massive big backdoor. Yeah. And I still believe we will see, you know, people get gloriously savage definitely. Yeah. So I think for your listeners sake, I need to just say that they are not here to be are no, we're
Reverend Ben Cooper:not. But there's many different labels on the tin. Yeah, isn't there? That's the thing. A church of Jesus Christ is the place to be found in Yeah, not the church of prosperity. Right. That's the issue. Right? And I think what we're finding within the West, we've been promised by prophets and teachers and preachers that you're gonna gain so much. Give me Give me Give me. And then suddenly we are going to be stripped back. Yeah, we're going to be stripped back materially, spiritually. And we're what we're looking look at the UK at the moment we are leader less within the government. Yeah, we have we have to be honest. And that is the front. I'm afraid that is that is reflecting church is and religion. Whatever way you look at it, we need, we need the king. Yeah, we need a leader.
Roy:And we're living in exciting days, powerful
Reverend Ben Cooper:days, you know, it's a great time to be alive. It is. And,
Roy:you know, I know when I get back to New Zealand, I believe, you know, the law will be powerfully moving. But on the other side, you'll see Yeah, families, right, your I know that I've decided, you know, to pack up bags and call it a day, you know, which is tragic, if keep your eyes on Jesus. Yeah. So I just want to touch on in Genesis six about, you know, the great catalyst, these fallen angels, because I know, I've mentioned it a few times about the major breach where you've got the hybrid race of the Nephilim. And, and this is what the significant breach, but you see as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be this coming of the Son of Man. And so we're going to start to see, you know, a breach where angelic beings will actually break back into the physical realm. Now, around that. It's always been one of well, what does the Bible really sort of say about how because I mentioned legal right? How could Lucifer be able to achieve this? Well, I want to take you to Genesis chapter 40, Genesis four and five, we've we've got, in five, we've got the genealogy of from Adam down the line of zeth, which is the redemptive flyer. But when Moses wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he, he actually unpacked in detail, the highlight of where the bridge came, the breach came. And so we know who the mother of the Nephilim is, because it's written in Scripture. And also we know where the legal right came, you see what Lucifer himself didn't come down and inhabit and start a race of hybrid, there was a few angels, in fact, Adi pensive if your listeners consider some of the books outside the biblical canon, and so we get a bit of idea from what sort of numbers we're talking about, but what some would say is about 200 Angels, rebel came down, broke into the physical realm and cohabited with with with with women and had hybrids, the Nephilim. Now, this is an important issue, because we can see legal riot where it is because Moses outlines it. And so when you go through five generations from Cain, in verse 19 of Genesis four, we see, we have lambic. Now this is not the father of Noah, this is this is another linic that took for himself two wives. So straight away, he's a front of God is the first guy that decides I'm not just gonna have one wife, I'm gonna have two. Then if you read the in the verses there, he Moses unpacks it nice and neatly for us. He says, one wife was adda and the other was ILA now. And I had two sons. One was Jay Bo and the other one's Jubal. Now, Zilla, the other wife right here, she had a song called to McCain. Now you've got three sons, but also he had a daughter called nema. It's all in here in verse nine in verse 22. Now what Moses does, he puts it all nice together for us. If we don't run over it, you know, it's here
Reverend Ben Cooper:in the Detail, it's
Roy:here. And it seems that what happens is that cause lemak was a front of God and what He actually does he he he wasn't just a bad person. All right. And and the reason why he wasn't just a bad person because Moses records in verse 2324, his boast against shoreway and he quotes like Cain, Cain says, you know that he quotes the Lord speaking to Cain, you know, you shall be avenged sevenfold regards to his mark, that God put a mark on Cain. Well, what lemak does he boast to his wife, that if Cain shall be avenged sevenfold and lemak 7070 Sorry, he
Reverend Ben Cooper:indestructible Oh, yeah. And
Roy:so we see there is a clear opening, where it is and theologians not all but there are good group of scholars that would say that The mother of the nephron him is Noma, the door opener. Yeah. And because when, because when you look at her brothers, yet, it seems that incredible knowledge was given to his three sons. You see, the first one became the father of livestock and tents. So he, so he had an incredible knowledge, where do you get that knowledge from? You also then see duble that he was a master of the harp and the flute. So we see that he was given advanced information, knowledge about music, then tubal Cain, a craftsman, be it you know all things about metals, irons and bronzes. So you've got three sons that became masters of industrial three areas. Where did that come from? Well, it's clear that it was in the dairy of when NEMA was given, you know, to an angelic being and began the Nephilim. Now, this is not just my idea. I mean, there are some good scholars that lean towards this. And there are a few books out that your listeners could could read, if they're interested. But as you read the account, you can see that, that when the first generation of of the Nephilim, it seems that, that the second generation of the Nephilim when they had children, right? They weren't as potent, and is strong, so weakening correct. And there was it seems that there was civil war. I mean, there's the book of the giants. And there's some other books outside the biblical canon, that gives us an insight of where these I mean, we're talking over a period of 900 years, where there were there was war between the giants,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and we're talking serious war. Yeah, we,
Roy:we we are but what we can see is this, there's a spirit why arises because there is a spirit you see. I mean, all depends how your listeners interpret Scripture. I'm wondering, like when you get to, like Isaiah 14 And Ezekiel 28, where you scholars say this, these are snapshots of Lucifer? Well, it's bad exegesis, just to say, well, that's, that's and leave it there, you've got to take the whole thing. So if you're reading, that this is Lucifer, you got to read it in the whole chapter, the whole text, you got to read your car
Reverend Ben Cooper:dangerous to take a snapshot. And
Roy:we do we say that that's referring to Lucifer was equal 31 is equal 32 is a wonderful commentary, your listeners should study it, and read it through the like the king of us, the Assyrian king is the spirit is, is to do with with with the first of the Nephilim. Right. And, and this first of the Nephilim when he parishes I mean he, he achieved a great deal. He's, he reappears periodically, in the Old Testament. Now, this might sound a bit deep or strange. But if you start to unpack, zekiel, 28, sorry, Ezekiel 31, and 32. You see that it talks about the garden and the unit talks there, the language in there is all relating to how powerful he was of the Nephilim. Now, the word Nephilim is not used in those chapters, but he's got a different title. Now, those that study eschatology, will say that when we talk about the Antichrist, the Antichrist has got a title like the Babylonian, the Assyrian. So there are titles right through the way for the Old Testament that that we associate.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we understand the Antichrist got Yeah.
Roy:But when you get to the New Testament, and this is really a one on tie up, and when you get to the New Testament, we see that Jesus himself and also Paul gives a title for the Antichrist. And that title is key to understand what spirit because when was Lastly, we talked about Jesus being portrayed. And it said that Satan entered Judas Iscariot, yeah. Now, I personally don't believe literally Satan entered his heart. No, no. And the reason I don't believe that is because there was an occasion where when Jesus turned to Pete as they get behind me, Satan, alright, so we know that he's addressing a spirit. So it says, clearly in Scripture that and Satan entered his heart. So what what is actually going on if Lucifer is in the spiritual realm, and he's not permitted to enter into the physical realm, what spirit has gone into Judas Iscariot? Well, the spirit that went into Judas Iscariot had previously gone into other individuals, including Nimrod, yeah. If you do a BA We'll study on Nimrod, you can see it is the, the disembodied spirit of the Assyrian spirit that follow with me. Because in the Nimrod, it also comes into the the Pharaoh Jew in the plagues of Egypt, it would have been an attempt to third. All right. So we see that there's evidence of this same spirit that once was was residing as the Nephilim was destroyed in the flood, and went to its own place, and periodically has come and entered into individuals because of legal right comes into Judas Iscariot. Now, follow with me, with Judas Iscariot, we know, in Acts one, we're told that that if you read the account when they're going, obviously to replace Judas Iscariot, if you read there in the text, you find that, that he went to the place that was for him. Yes. So he's gone to a place. I mean, not just right, so there, so this spirit, and and the title that Jesus uses, he calls him the son of addition, going to perdition, the St. John, when we get to pull in Thessalonians, he says that this is the man of sin, the son of perdition. So the phrase he used his son of addition is addressing the spirit, the spirit, same spirit that went in Judas Iscariot will manifest into the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness, correct. Now, some have said to me, you'd be surprised. People in leadership would say that, hey, that the Antichrist is not going to literally be a man that the Antichrist is not a person. Yeah, this this has been said to me. It's because it's poetic language.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, sure. Okay.
Roy:All right. So for the sake of the listeners, we firstly move on. But Paul makes it clear in Thessaloniki, that it's the man of sin son of addition, and he will go in and make himself God. Okay. The
Reverend Ben Cooper:common man, a man. Yeah, it's simple. It's the fact
Roy:but as you get into Revelation, it talks about the spirit that was that is now will come. Alright, so. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:this spirit pops up. I'll use the word pop up, comes up shows up at all. Key Point
Roy:Six significant time that breaches its its
Reverend Ben Cooper:possession. Its present. Yeah. So there is an element where he's been able to get in the door. Oh, wow.
Roy:Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you take the Pharaoh. Yeah. I mean, what he was doing, I mean, it was genocide. It
Reverend Ben Cooper:was going on. Yes.
Roy:I mean, Nimrod was a powerful, powerful man, he he was possessed. So well, I just want to clarify for for for your listeners, is that in Revelations, we know that the Antichrist is referred to the beast, and, and the commentary in Scripture is, is there it's, it's not cryptic in any way. I'm just getting through just finding here for you. It's the beast, just bear with me on turning these pages. Remember that revelation 17, I'm just gonna get there. Right. So it's like in verse eight of revelation 17, the beast that what that you saw was and is not will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go to petition? Okay, that's what it says, right. And if you go on verse 11, the beast that was and is not is himself of the eighth, and he's of the seventh is going to position our petitioners means destruction,
Reverend Ben Cooper:to destruction, destruction, or destroy.
Roy:When you move back into the key, chapter nine, Revelations nine, and to me, this is where I'm sort of going to tie up because time has gone is the ultimate breach. And this is the fifth trumpet. The fifth angel sounded And I saw staff warning from Heaven, to the earth to him was given the key to the bottomless pit, it's opened, and that spirit comes out. But what comes out is not just a spirit, you've got a chief it says, And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is about the dawn or Apollyon, which is in the Greek Apollyon. Now, I personally believe and there's a few scholars that that that hold to this view, not many have the view that this Apollyon is a fallen angelic being. That was the one that first impregnated and has the spirit, this son was this spirit. So this spirit that keeps manifesting throughout history and enters the Antichrist is literally the son of this fallen angelic being. Now, your listeners might think, Oh, that's a bit silly, but if you do a Bible study and if you Follow the trail. If you follow the trail and check it out, there is a harmony of Scripture definitely that there is a harmony. So we know that, that in the last days that that things are gonna get extremely bad. It's not a question is the church going to be here or not? I personally don't believe that the church will be ever done on earth at this periodic period of time, because it's God's God's judgment, yes. But as you follow it, we know that, that there is a moment when Lucifer himself, and this is quite key, also is allowed to come into the physical realm. And that's in chapter 12. When you get to Revelations, chapter 12, this is most probably middle of the Great Tribulation, it could happen at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, definitely not early on a tribulation is, is that war broke out in heaven and the spiritual realm, this is not heaven itself. Now. Try to interpret this as as, as pre Adam, it isn't, okay, this this
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a spiritual realm, spiritual realm.
Roy:And Lucifer, Satan, breaks into the physical realm. And if you read the commentary, it's, it says it, it's there you it's, it's incredible that that Satan comes to earth and he's physically or on Earth, physical being, it says, Therefore, rejoice, Oh, heavens, verse 1212. It says, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short timeline, you start already you see that, that this is just not poetry. It's not metaphors. This is where Lucifer in the latter part of the Great Tribulation, mid tribulation of the Great Tribulation, is where celestial beings manifest into the physical world. And maybe most of your listeners will think I'm completely do law. But the Bible does teach this and it's clear, it's clear, it's there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And we are there as in time, not in timeout in the podcast, but we are so close, aren't we? When you look at the atmosphere, that word and recover, use it and the climate and everything that's going on around the world, and the calendar of varying is happening, you know, you can see so clearly that we are at a critical stage. Yes, the body of Christ. Yeah. And we've got to hold on to Christ, we've got to walk. Keep focused on Jesus, keeping the word asking God to reveal the word. Keep getting a check, Lord, help me there's so much to do.
Roy:You see, we don't need to fear the future. No, we don't. And and those days are a lot of uncertainty in the days to come. We can have an incredible peace, we have the Holy Spirit walk in obedience. And though I mentioned the Great Tribulation, your listeners do not need to fear because the Great Tribulation is God's wrath. And we can be very confident Ben, that God is already poured out His wrath on his son. Yeah. And so it's not on us. Correct. And, and, and I think that even if you look to Sodom and Gomorrah, and that is, again, another example, where God will not judge the righteous with the wicked. Though I expect, you know, some of your listeners will struggle with the placement of the rapture, some would might even not even believe in the rapture. Yeah. There has to be a rapture is because God cannot pour His wrath out on his church. He, I mean, I believe the Holy Spirit will be still present on earth, for the tribulation saints, and 144,000, which I believe all of Israel, and that's the remnant of Rome, you know, the church is not the remnant church. Okay, so it's a case of rightly dividing the word of truth, as we're told. And so when we talk about the Great Tribulation, yes, it might seem doom and gloom, but for me, it's Wow, God has it all nailed down, right up to the
Reverend Ben Cooper:right. And every moment is gone. It
Roy:now down to the point that we know that that Satan, at the end of it is going to be putting that bottomless pit for 1000 years. And then when he's released, his time is going to be short. And then he's finished once and for all,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but he's still got he's still in sovereign are still in control. And he can only do site and this isn't he can only do what he's permitted to do. Why until the end of the breath. Correct. That's it.
Roy:Thank God sovereign. Absolutely. Yeah. Amazing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Roy, we thank you so much. You know, it's been great. It's been absolutely a breath of fresh revelation. I will say no. God is moving through your ministry and we how can we Get out of you, Roy, when we're across the other side of the world, how can we find you on the socials on the networks? How will people get ahold of you?
Roy:I think the best way for people to get ahold if they want to chew the fat with me is with is with my personal email, which I'm very happy to, which is Roy, underscore, we're on@hotmail.com. Failing that, if you if you don't want to get close to me, that's okay. Is I've got a website, which is as resources.com It's a little bit tight at the moment when I'll get back, I've got to tidy up a little bit. But that is really my shot window in terms of the work I do for the persecuted church. And I work with Vaughn on a voluntary basis Voice of the Martyrs. And so that's quite a key area to what I do, is supporting the persecuted church because for me, that's where it's going to persecution is going to get greater and greater persecutions come in if you want revival, you got to take persecution with it. You know, you can't have it without that. And already there are pockets of revival breaking out in Afghanistan.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amazing, isn't it? Oh, what's happening in the persecuted church? That is powerful. Absolutely. Watch what's going on there. You think wow.
Roy:And I think when when it wouldn't be wouldn't it be wonderful, you know, that a good dose of persecution? Bring Okay,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, bring sweet pro removal of gum on low sweetener. Yeah. It's sweet.
Roy:I'm being a naughty boy.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Come on, I'll complete that as well. We better we better press the buttons. We thank you so much for joining us. And it's been an absolute blast. Have your, your teaching and your Word of God and we thank you so much. And to everybody across the other side of the world, wherever you may be at this moment in time. May God bless you and strengthen you. In the mighty name of Jesus Christ. You can find us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, Amazon music and so many over podcasting platforms. Thank you so much for sharing this out. May God bless you all, in the mighty name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church Swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout Spotify Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.