Reverend Ben Cooper  0:15  
Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast Elim church in Swanley. You are joining myself Reverend Ben Cooper and Simon Pinchbeck. This morning. We've got the man back in the house you know we got the greatest guy that has come out of Essex is six Hartford cheer on the border on the

boat. We're in lockdown everywhere but it's

Simon Pinchbeck  0:38  
it's great to be back in Swanley the gunboats itself the home of the staycation.

Reverend Ben Cooper  0:46  
This is a great place It's so good to welcome Simon back into Swanley into Elim church you know, we're talking about men's stuff we're talking about all sorts of bits and pieces and you know, we love Simon so much is is a really real true follower of Jesus and we thank him for his ministry his time his family, and he's got a new dog

Simon Pinchbeck  1:09  
got no dog and

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:10  
got no dog might

Simon Pinchbeck  1:12  
no great idea a little puppies at night, but for the first

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:15  
hour,

Simon Pinchbeck  1:16  
you get them waking him up. But goodness knows what time in the morning and yeah, but they're great. But there's not a great deal of sleep going on at the moment.

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:27  
But we'll get the load is good. Okay, thank God for animals. We love animals. Right Simon? Let's get serious. Get serious. The church is too serious in a changing direction that I've lost on what we talked about what we talked about. Let's talk about

caught again.

Simon Pinchbeck  1:51  
Want to shine and I was chief.

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:53  
I've got fake tan on today. My teeth are really shining. Gone with Daniel

Goleman dalyan big crush on the front.

Simon Pinchbeck  2:01  
dollar and the dollar

Reverend Ben Cooper  2:04  
I've got my picture on the wall over there. On the wall over there.

Simon Pinchbeck  2:09  
Yeah, well, listen, Ben come on home what we're going to do talking about, you know, we spoke about this a few times we've sort of veered on onto it a few times. And so have a chat about the the prosperity gospel is out there. Name and climate. So I'll go name it and claim and then go on to as it goes into talking about a different Jesus and I guess the immersive emerging church I mean, you've hit the jackpot here. Elian Swami on the prosperity front.

Reverend Ben Cooper  2:43  
Load out. This is my paradigm load. I got a tenner in the pocket. And we got to run the church off it helped me load the prosperity gospel. What a load a bag of tripe. I, oh, man, you know, I'm moving the cap off top my head. I'm getting really into this today. Now what does that actually mean the prosperity gospel so we have pastors and leaders, don't we? Yeah, across the world. Yeah. Basically saying, cost your bread upon the waters, you know, watch its return. Hang on a minute now cost your bread into my pocket. Feed my ministry. And it's like, it's like the selling the pyramid, isn't it?

Simon Pinchbeck  3:24  
You're exactly right. That's what it is, is that it's a pyramid scheme, that only the people at the top get wealthy. Yeah, you know, I mean, you have tried it. And I've seen it. I've got 11 quid. We've got you. isn't as mark two scores. That's right. Yes. Only one car.

Reverend Ben Cooper  3:42  
Car. Yeah. And that's 1000 years old, a Ferrari Dyson.

And they were crushed the driver.

Is You crazy. Look

Simon Pinchbeck  3:54  
on a Monday, Chris is on a Tuesday.

Reverend Ben Cooper  3:57  
Yeah. But

Simon Pinchbeck  3:58  
seriously, there are men getting extremely wealthy. Yes, fabulously rich and on the back of promises, which are totally from here.

Reverend Ben Cooper  4:15  
The enemy. There's a transatlantic preacher that I heard the other day that clearly said that God has told him that he is going to be the first billionaire preacher in America. And he's three quarters of the way there already. personal wealth. Wow. How can that be scripture there is no scripture that strengthens or supports about a man of God or a woman of God. That can hold masses amount of money. Now people might say always a jealous pastor. He wants money. I've had money and it's got me in more trouble. See, you know, what's

Simon Pinchbeck  5:05  
allowed me to win? a secular world? Yeah. What see we got so what's your motivation?

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:11  
What? Yeah, what is the motivation?

Simon Pinchbeck  5:13  
So if the motivation in your heart is to be a billionaire, yeah, yeah. then where does one Timothy 610

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:23  
examination?

Simon Pinchbeck  5:24  
Yeah, yeah, the love of money is a root of all evil.

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:27  
Now that is the root

Simon Pinchbeck  5:28  
of all evil. You go

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:30  
to certain churches don't know and you it will be, it will be free envelopes on a see gift type one for the bishop.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  5:41  
And prayer requests on the outside.

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:44  
Yeah. And then I know money. Money is we know obviously Come on. We know money is really, really important to keep things moving. But the Bible says The just shall live by faith. Now that's how I'm living at the moment. I'm literally living by faith in every area of life. If God doesn't show up, it's curtains. It's game over. Yeah. So when you look at the prosperity gospel, that false gospel that has been preached and preached and preach and preach for years before COVID-19 now go back eight months, nine months, you could have sat in certain congregations, and the motivational speaker at the front, because I'm not using not condemning church leaders anymore, because you're not leading people. You're leading people to hell, because it's a full time me around the burning bush anymore. You can't, you've got to get straight to the brass tacks of this. There are people that I've sold their house, because the man at the front or the person that they're listening to. God has told me that if you give this and that, and there are people that have lost their home, they've racked credit card debts up because it sounds good.

Simon Pinchbeck  6:55  
Yes, it sounds

Reverend Ben Cooper  6:55  
good. But there's no

Simon Pinchbeck  6:59  
such a big lie. They're not selling, they're selling a different Jesus, even if they so Jesus comes into it all, if you listen to some of these guys. I mean, Ben, you can do often sort of verse out of context can catch things. So you take a verse out of context, and you put it out there, and you can do all things through your eyes. What? What does the prosperity gospel do? It puts man at the center.

Reverend Ben Cooper  7:33  
When you when you're just really thinking about this, it puts man right at the center. It takes the focus off of God. And suddenly we're looking at the man and the ministry, rather than looking at Christ.

Simon Pinchbeck  7:47  
Yeah, that's right. That's what that's what it is, is to look at that man. And then if he can do it, what even God has done it for

Reverend Ben Cooper  7:55  
them, God will do it for me. That's what they say. That's what they say, Yeah, they're selling you something. And we need to be very careful, because we can easily be distracted and be railroad and to give, give, give, give, give, give. Now, as I said, Go back eight months, you could have gone to many churches, and they would have been beating the drum, give, give, give, you know, cost of bread upon the waters and all these sort of scriptures, you know, about bringing it to the store out on all this and absolutely everything to do with giving your business is going to grow. God has told me now in within a couple of months, now you're going to be rich, God's going to put money in your lap, but then suddenly, our friend and number 10, as turned the key on everything. So where is the prosperity gospel Now,

those have sowed for years

and years and years. And that motivational speaker at the front has promised them because they've manipulated scripture, suddenly find themselves that they've been furloughed. 20% or knocked off their wages, they suddenly find themselves at a food bank, they suddenly find themselves they can't pay the mortgage, they suddenly find themselves at that credit card that they was using is racked up to the limit. So where is this Jesus that then people have been speaking about? And that's the

Simon Pinchbeck  9:17  
and that's a sad part about it, isn't it because you've been sold this lie yet and your faith is due on this fear. And so the Bible says if your faith is built on sand, pretty soon it's gonna get washed away. Yeah, all of a sudden, not only will you see the stuff around you, not happening. That's right. But you will start people start then to get very bitter. We've got it done. Yeah. Where are you? God? I I've heard it on. on reality shows on the TV, you know, people are going to praise the Lord bless you, Jesus. So when everything's going great, and all the sermons, all of a sudden one or two things are not going so great. Right that Where are you now? God, where are you now?

Reverend Ben Cooper  10:02  
We've never been in so much debt as a nation

Simon Pinchbeck  10:05  
they're using, and we've said it before, but they're using Jesus Christ and the law of God as a genie in a bowl hole in the wall. This is what and you can come out when I want you. Yeah. Is that Is it doesn't work. It doesn't

Reverend Ben Cooper  10:22  
work does it because the the speakers in the churches and the drum that they've been the false gospel that they've been pressing, as put men into a false sense of security. If I do A, B, and C as they're saying, it's gonna work because it's of Jesus. But then as you said, suddenly it doesn't work. Then my face gets rocked. Then suddenly I do what the disciples done, I'm going back fishing. Where is this? Jesus? We just sent him now to the cross, he's gone is finished is over. Where is Jesus in my family? I'm suddenly finding myself in debt. I'm suddenly finding myself I'm caught back in my addictions, because the false gospel has no spiritual power behind it. No, that's that that's the thing. The true gospel of Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit ministers and the Comforter come, comes, it gives you comfort in the area that you are struggling but if you are given a motivational speak, and and and you are given all this sort of stuff is just motivational. So it's feeding the flesh. The thing

Simon Pinchbeck  11:30  
is, like we said, it puts man at the center, it makes man a little cut down. It's all about

you.

Yeah. The gospels know what about you? Bible is not all about you. The Scripture is all about you there. Yeah, Jesus Christ. And when you come to know that, that's when you strip away all that rubbish in your life, and you'll just be totally reliant on Christ. And then the scriptures will mean more to you because you're using your you're accepting Christ. And the Christ is in you. And the scriptures are in you.

Reverend Ben Cooper  12:10  
They said, the Bible tells are very clear to, to put the word on the tablet of the heart. Now why do I want that word on my heart, because there will come a trial, there will become a test, there'll be a strain, there will be something in my life that will try and draw me away from what God is calling me to be. So when you talk about the prosperity gospel, the name and climate gospel, it puts people and it puts humanity and believers into a false sense of God will supply all my needs according

Simon Pinchbeck  12:42  
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper  12:43  
You know, the scripture you can say you can manipulate it, then when suddenly Heaven is quiet. Now we now the church religion, the system has been beating the drum of revival and prosperity. The healing gospel has been preached as much as a prosperity one both running together. You're gonna be healed. You're healed. You're healed. You're healed. You're healed. You're healed. You're not gonna die. You're not gonna die. You're not gonna die. God. God's told me your legs gonna grow God's tell me you don't need glasses. God's telling me you don't need Specsavers. You're, you're going to hear you're going to see you're gonna you're well you got a new kidney. God's telling me someone in this church today is gonna he's gonna be healed of cancer and your heart is beating and suddenly nothing happens.

Simon Pinchbeck  13:32  
This, I don't know if you're aware, but in the last couple of weeks. The healing rooms in Bethel Church.

Reverend Ben Cooper  13:41  
Yes, Redding, California, okay.

Simon Pinchbeck  13:43  
It's closed down

due to illness. Now, it's the

truth. Yeah, check it out, research it. The healing rooms in Bethel. Redding, California, though, is it but climate time, they're gonna hear all this stuff. choosers are falling off.

Reverend Ben Cooper  14:00  
Now let's backtrack a few years. When you listen to the ones that we're referring to in Bethel, they will clearly tell you that that if you come to this church tumors are dropping off. Cancer is gone new lungs, you know that they've been talking about children are being healed and all this sort of stuff. And then when it doesn't happen to you in your house, and you're watching a loved one die but over there Why is it Why are you working there Lord and you're not working here? When actually God says I'm not actually work in there now.

I'm everywhere. Yeah.

But but this might shock a few people. We've all got a diet stomach. It's all gonna go out with something.

Simon Pinchbeck  14:41  
Man there was a you probably can you see this on the internet if you if you look at it, look for it. But it's certainly the year one of the big worship leaders over there in barefoot he had a little two year old girl and tragically she died and it was all it but I spent five days claiming Oliver is going to come back to Life. Yeah, yeah. What does that do to pain? Yeah, what does that do?

Reverend Ben Cooper  15:04  
It shakes people in their faith. And then when a real when these crisis hit what it does, it makes us look at this false gospel. And suddenly we realize we're not where we are spiritually, to suddenly panic fear anxiety creeps in. And then suddenly we are all over the place. I mean, the body lost,

but we're not lost. So you've been the world is totally

Simon Pinchbeck  15:33  
looking for a shortcut. Oh, I want a shortcut to prosperity. Yeah, I want a shortcut to health. The Bible doesn't give you shortcuts. The Bible tells you this life. Yeah. In Jesus isn't the most amazing life you can ever get. Yeah. But this life? Yeah. It's not your best life.

Reverend Ben Cooper  15:55  
No, it's not. It's a stop gap is a start. So

Simon Pinchbeck  15:59  
listen, you know, I'll openly admit when as a as a young believer, I read and listened to a lot of Joyce, my staff, I listened to a lot of Joel Osteen stuff. And Joel, who's famous is he's got a huge church in Houston, Texas, and he stands out in front of a huge globe, that

Reverend Ben Cooper  16:25  
rant,

Simon Pinchbeck  16:26  
and one of his books says you can have your best life now. That's why these books, you can have your best life now. Well, if you have your best life now enjoyed. Because the one you're going to get afterwards ain't going to be so great.

Reverend Ben Cooper  16:40  
But the one I'm getting after this one,

Simon Pinchbeck  16:43  
as I'm saying is, if you Yeah, if you

want your best life, now, the one you're getting out of this one, ain't going to be so good because you're putting yourself at the center, and you're not walking in a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper  16:58  
No. So that this is where we're getting. We're seeing a lot of mentors. We've seen a lot of motivational speakers coming under the label of church.

Simon Pinchbeck  17:07  
It's a motivational speaking and to be honest,

Reverend Ben Cooper  17:11  
because it will make you feel good.

Simon Pinchbeck  17:12  
I bought right into it. Some of the stuff that Joe was saying is it's inspirational.

Reverend Ben Cooper  17:20  
Don't ask you this question. Did you buy any literature? Yes, yeah, you got that said? it. So when you get in millions and thousands of people following you, and you are, you are looking good, you are sounding good. It's like, it's all these motivational, guys and girls that are out there. You know, they'll tell you everything, but they'll say if you subscribe, I'll finish the story of basically, if you send me 100 quid $100 you can have my manual. Yeah. That alone, it's like you're you're selling

Simon Pinchbeck  17:56  
you're selling that all the titles of the books or you know, every day can be a Friday, all that sort of stuff.

Reverend Ben Cooper  18:03  
Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  18:04  
It's just, it's just feeding into the flesh. Just I want that. I want that prosperity. I want that best life now. Yeah. But what people don't tell you that mama tells you, you can go through struggles. Look at Paul. Yeah, the most amazing disciple. He went through struggles, every turn he went

shipwreck details, prisons,

prisons, people leaving him

Reverend Ben Cooper  18:29  
Gentile and Jason and Jews. Yeah, he was kicked out of this place kicked out of that place. And Christ said very clearly, you see how they persecute me. If they do this to me, so will it be to you? So the area of the church that is growing the body that is growing, is the persecuted church, the more a Christian is persecuted the more you'll see the grace and the power of God now look at the disciple look at the apostle rather that said look three times I pleaded with the Lord, take this away from me. Three times I played it and the prosperity gospel and the healing gospel the one at the front would go You are not going to have that phone anymore now not the name of Jesus go

Simon Pinchbeck  19:19  
and I've seen and there's stuff out there if you watch people like and I think probably is this guy is probably the worst. And you know this guy's is so bad. It's it is untrue. But he has millions of people following them again, I've been to is I've been looked at the outside of his his of his compound in in Fort Worth, Texas is absolutely huge in and he's got oil on that compound. He's got private jets. Yeah, everything. Yes. name is Kenneth Copeland. Yes. And he's got his He's the worst sort of guy and his stuff. Own bs Yeah, YouTube. Yeah, he's actually blowing away or attempting to blow away COVID-19 the pandemic, but it's still, it's still a still Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  20:14  
yeah, I'm actually, I'll get lost for words that through that through hearing this going on and all the stuff we talked about and what we hear, it actually stops me in my tracks because you think I can't hear any more crazy things because this is affecting me. In me this is this is affecting my emotions because as we've said, we may have looked at these people before as a young believer, and then suddenly, I'm not healed, I'm not prospering. So where is Jesus so that the backlash comes back to who?

Simon Pinchbeck  20:47  
Jesus totally

Reverend Ben Cooper  20:48  
so we go, where are you, God? Do you exist? I'm lost. I'm in debt. I'm struggling in my marriage. Um, I've still got this addiction. I'm still struggling with unforgiveness. And then you look at these preachers and teachers, I'll just use that label very, very lightly. And you look at them and what you see is like you said, they're, they've got the car they got they got the family, they got the house, they've got the holidays, they got all this going on. I'm still gonna work putting sandwiches on the shelf, struggling working 12 hour shifts. I'm exhausted. The kids are up all night. I've got no carpets on the floor. I've lost my five got

Simon Pinchbeck  21:21  
Where are you? Sad fingers? And you said it is that these guys are leading people to hell? Yeah. There's a massive guy. preacher out in Nigeria is named to be Joshua. And and he declared, yeah, this year that on a certain day in March COVID-19. He said, The Spirit has told him COVID-19 and finish. Amen to that. And it's still here. And so what? I'm sorry. What what Suzanne said that the Spirit got it wrong. That's what he said. Now, hang on. Let me back. Oh, and then so these guys are lost spirit. They're cheaters don't please, if your listeners don't go down the

Reverend Ben Cooper  22:08  
hill going down the road. Just don't

Simon Pinchbeck  22:11  
just follow Jesus getting smaller, get into the

Reverend Ben Cooper  22:13  
word into

Simon Pinchbeck  22:14  
the Word of God and you. There's no shortcuts to prosperity. There's no shortcut. If the grass looks greener, on the other side, it's probably artificial turf. That's that is Yeah, do not there's no shortcut. You're going to get troubles. You're going to get stuff. But But rejoice in the trial alone. Rejoice in the trials, because that makes you stronger.

Reverend Ben Cooper  22:36  
Yeah. And what happened, then you won't be seeking the hand of God you'll be seeking his face and who is the face of God on earth is Jesus, Jesus Christ. And the Bible says Consider it pure joy. My brothers and sisters, when you face trials of many kinds, because then you know that the testing of your faith will create perseverance. Perseverance, must finish its work so that you will not be lacking nothing.

Simon Pinchbeck  23:07  
And what does the Bible say those who endure to the end will be saved.

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:10  
Hallelujah. So let's get this. Right. Let's get it right. So what I've got to do, right, what I've got to do is not listen to anyone that is dripping in cash. That cuts the platform down to a massive amount. Yeah, so what I'm gonna do is not listen to anyone that is beating the drum that you can have.

Simon Pinchbeck  23:36  
Yeah, don't listen to this. It's so it's a lie. It is it's a Ponzi scheme. It's a pyramid scheme. It's you're just feeding in to the guy

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:46  
at the flesh. you're failing to the gut, yet a pyramid selling process. And it worked on mass. It's worked on numbers. So what do I do? Simply I keep my eyes on the author and the perfecter of my faith. I read the word what if we say I'm not? I'm not really into reading I get something on Audible. I get it. I just listen to God

in my spirit,

Simon Pinchbeck  24:08  
see, this isn't a new thing. Isn't isn't the Simon

Reverend Ben Cooper  24:12  
the sorcerer.

Simon Pinchbeck  24:14  
solely and listen, people think is a lovely story in the Bible. Lovely accounting the Bible of a poor widow gave to your last two pennies. Yeah, people think people think, Oh, good my life. Isn't that that amazing? tusq these people are given out of their Well, she's given. Why is she given that she's given it because they're preaching of the top, give it and you'll get this. So this all she is give and you'll get give and you'll get get a works based given gospel which which is a lie is a lie. And it is from the pit of hell. One john 216 tells us you know, beware of the last In the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. And all of this stuff. Oh covers all of that. Oh, so the lust of the flesh is,

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:09  
what is that? It's How are you feeling?

Simon Pinchbeck  25:11  
How are you feeling? Yeah. How are you feeling?

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:15  
awfully good?

Simon Pinchbeck  25:16  
What is correct? And let's sing this song. Because

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:22  
I want to feel happy. I want to get my adrenaline going. Because if I get if I get an atmosphere, if I get the feelgood factor if I can, if I can reach that euphoria, if I can get to that, that that pleasurable feeling of adrenaline, everything, everything's going to be okay. But then I'll leave church and drive away, still carrying baggage by Tuesday, you will hide some behavior in

Simon Pinchbeck  25:48  
the afternoon, I

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:50  
left church at 12 bikeportland was

misguided and lost. I've lost it all, because it's a feeling. Emotions are quick

Simon Pinchbeck  25:59  
what this lust of the flesh does as well.

And we can talk about this because it's something that's called, they call it the emerging church. It's something that puts all man's intellect, above Jesus and above the Bible. Yeah. And they will look at Jesus and say, he was a great prophet. But we come from a different era, and we can with our intellect, we know more. We have ghosts. Yeah. And that's, there's this certain denomination, certain churches, yeah, that will lead you down that path.

Reverend Ben Cooper  26:39  
So what we have, we have very well educated, very clever people with great vocabulary, and know how to deliver you're spot on, you're absolutely spot on. But Jesus says, I will call on our choose the lowly things, or to cause confusion. So what we have is we have a business model,

Simon Pinchbeck  27:05  
I've got a business model,

Reverend Ben Cooper  27:06  
I've got a business model here. And if I get my, my statistics, right, if I get my chart, right, and if I give, if I give flesh, what flesh wants, if I feed someone, the feelgood factor, you've got the x, the X Factor, you can have it, you can have this because Jesus has done it for me because I can do all things through I can now that's the hook line, I'll do all things well Hang on a moment. You can't do sin you can't do I can do all things through Christ that I can go and live and I can. I can do what I want and grace. Now we have grace covers everything. And if I make a little slip up, Grace is covered in

Simon Pinchbeck  27:47  
this. But Ben, this is these ankles. Let me tell you all these people. They're preachers of different Jesus. Yes. Right. And the Bible clearly says, and you hear that spot on men of intellect. And the Bible clearly says that they will deceive the elect, if that is possible. And this is what's happening now. So these men have intellects. Yeah, man, and the Bible does Matthew 2420 Yeah, they were deceived the elect Galatians one 613 six verses one six to 10 tells us that the devil ain't walking around with a pitchfork and homes and we've said this before, so be aware. He's walking around as an angel of light. He churches and he looks good. It looks great. He looks great. looks absolutely marvelous.

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:33  
What smells lovely. He's got the latest aftershave. I've got the latest car. We're gonna show you

Simon Pinchbeck  28:42  
crank ministries, David crank

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:45  
godness Yeah, the roller coaster. Yes. Did

Simon Pinchbeck  28:47  
he Yeah, he came into the song roller

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:50  
coaster of yesterday. You know what, since you sent me that I've got myself some roller skates. And I've come in a church on rollerskates just like Starlight Express here the leather jacket on this on the platform somersaults, backflips

Simon Pinchbeck  29:04  
or you know white flashing. No wonder you're wearing that baseball cap. You dyed your hair blonde and

Reverend Ben Cooper  29:10  
blonde? Yeah. 100 years old.

But then we have we have the fed up. See these guys are educators.

Simon Pinchbeck  29:19  
Been Out with the old customer for that when they

Reverend Ben Cooper  29:22  
work? So if you look at Simon the sorcerer, Simon the sorcerer, you know, he was living in that area of that biblical time and and the people around him said, he must be of God. Look at the things that he's doing. Now what we got around us and everything is spiritual. Everything is spiritual. So this false gospel is prosperity gospel has witchcraft, and wizardry and sorcery and magic behind it. But he says into the occult, that's one and that's what

Simon Pinchbeck  29:59  
works. It works but because it makes itself Yes, so attractive. And that's what the enemy does. I want your rap singer to make look so attractive

Reverend Ben Cooper  30:09  
and what then what does Lucifer what he wants to be wants to be worshipped? And what does man want

to be what he wants to be worship? Listen.

Simon Pinchbeck  30:20  
You know what, what they what they

fail to realize is they're coming away from the Bible. They're not even looking at the Bible.

Reverend Ben Cooper  30:30  
Now. They're far from the Word of God. They are so far away from what they're

Simon Pinchbeck  30:35  
saying these this emergency, we're fed up with mega churches were fed up with the old gospel ways. I read somewhere where one church was saying, this ain't your Granny's church is that whether, you know it should be your cronies. Judges should be what you're going to good Bible based church. They follow in a picker mix, gospel, whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah, you've come to you come to all a bit of that. I'll have a bit of that. Then that's it.

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:04  
We've got we've got we've got a sweet shops and a sweet shops

Simon Pinchbeck  31:07  
and are they want a radical Jesus, I thought was gospel. But what it is, is a concept of Jesus and these guys. That's right. Yeah. Guys are so intellectual. They're not talking about Jesus with a white beard. And, and no, and talking about a concept.

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:22  
Yes, that's right. A model, a model, a model. They're selling you a model selling your model. And isn't it interesting that they don't talk about salvation?

You don't hear salvation?

Simon Pinchbeck  31:35  
No, because there's

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:36  
no hell? Exactly. Hell. No, I actually know, a pastor that is leaving the church that actually doesn't believe in how

Simon Pinchbeck  31:46  
it stops you in your tracks. Matthew 2424, they will see if the, if that is possible, false prophets, false prophets,

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:55  
preachers and teachers and what they're saying now,

Simon Pinchbeck  31:57  
these are merging churches This is that Jesus was just another prophet. I seen others come out of my mouth. But yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  32:07  
Jesus, we get what you're saying.

Simon Pinchbeck  32:09  
Another prophet. Yeah. So then let's embrace little bits of Islam as embrace. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, bits of, let's put and what they do they put Catholicism at the same same day. So we were going around, and you've got like the Stations of the Cross, yet here. You can, you can put your name on there for forgiveness. You have a name on that cross from Yes. And this sort of stuff is coming up there is going on. And, you know, look, there's some great, lovely Catholic, guys and girls. But you know, we're not worshiping Mary.

Reverend Ben Cooper  32:50  
Now. What does the scripture says? It says, I am, the way, the truth

Simon Pinchbeck  32:55  
and the life and the life no comes to the Father except through me.

Reverend Ben Cooper  32:59  
So who is me? Jesus, Jesus, no one's here to heaven. You can't get it for a pastor. You can't get it for prosperity gospel. You can't buy your way. Now, when Christ called the disciples at the shoreline, he said, drop your nets come and follow me. Leave everything is no mention of Have you got to have X amount of money. He says, Why are you worrying about tomorrow? Why are you worrying about your clothes on your back? Why? Why are you worrying? And Ben, come on? Follow me.

Simon Pinchbeck  33:32  
Follow me. Follow me to the Father. You might Jesus but more about hell

Reverend Ben Cooper  33:36  
than he did about him. Yes, yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  33:40  
But But who we have an emerging church. That's not telling us that there's tellers there is no hell. Everything is on the table. Yeah. Why? Because everything is negotiable. Yeah. So you come to me. And you, you're thinking, you know, your daughter's thinking about having an abortion. It's negotiable. It's on the table. That's right. Everything's on the table.

Reverend Ben Cooper  34:03  
There's no consequences. It's assignment.

Simon Pinchbeck  34:05  
Here we are an evening suddenly everything is on the table. Except that check. You promise me?

Reverend Ben Cooper  34:11  
Oh, yeah. Okay. Thank you. You can have a quick as a quick Roman. You know, it's so there's the false gospel is so dangerous. It's

Simon Pinchbeck  34:21  
so dangerous, man again. Yeah.

Like the prosperity gospel man. Again, you have the center. So Simon,

Reverend Ben Cooper  34:28  
it's the intellect to why so what I see at the moment is what's blowing the lid on this false gospel is COVID-19. Because what COVID-19 has done, it has shocked the church but I gotta be carefully. I'm not talking about the body of Christ because no one can close that the kingdom of God is moving continuously, it will never be closed. But what we've had now is all the churches have sharp. So now we are starting to see believers emerge. Rather than a platform of leaders. So what we have this is this, we're coming back to that good old text, one Samuel, chapter 30, David strengthened himself in the Lord. In the time of crisis. Where do you go? Well, you go to Jesus, you can't go to the establishment, because the establishment,

Simon Pinchbeck  35:20  
the healing rooms are sharp, you're listening to this. If you listen to this, wherever you are, Bravo, or that scripture kirbo is the key on your heart because of the time and why Samuel,

Reverend Ben Cooper  35:30  
chapter 30 6068. But what is great, isn't it the beginning of that text, the ad all men, women, that's what I'm saying, at all men, women, when it's going good. And we're in the battlefield, and we're taking all the plunder, you know, we're going back home and watching our flat screen TVs and we've got all the activities and when it's good, it's good. But what happened, but what happened when it all went wrong?

Simon Pinchbeck  35:56  
What did they do? What was the first week See, these men? probably weren't, weren't believers or whatever. No, like, all of a sudden, they looked at David and they were going after it You

Reverend Ben Cooper  36:05  
and I were gonna stone, this stone in. They went against him. They wanted to kill him in desperate trouble. Now what's really important is David now when you look at David when he was 15, to 12, right about that age, he was anointed by Samuel. Right? Yeah. Now just because you're anointed doesn't mean to say you're going to swerve trouble. Now that false gospel tells you that you will never get trouble you will be rich, dripping rich, you will be healthy. You will have absolutely everything when David got anointed, anointed trouble came in. Now in one Samuel, it tells us very clear one Samuel chapter 16 verse one, it tells us about when when Samuel the Prophet was going and was told by God to go and anoint Jesse's son, whoever that was going to be out of that pack at that particular point. And Samuel said to God, but if so here's of this, my life is threatened. Now, when you understand who Samuel was, he was anointed prophet. So what we got what I'm trying to get to here, guys and gals is even though God is with you, you are still going to be attacked. So the false gospel tells us you're not going to get that is going to be a smooth, jolly

Simon Pinchbeck  37:26  
ride. What is Turner's that false gospel This is his voice out what you want your voice out what you want, you can have it you can overcome. Listen to someone like TD Jakes very rarely when when he mentioned the Lord or the Scripture, but he'll say, you can do it. You Can Overcome you can do that.

Reverend Ben Cooper  37:44  
Yeah, yeah, you can you can you

Simon Pinchbeck  37:47  
ain't about you. Listen. There's hope. There's massive notice. The father says this. He says, set my face. He does. And Jesus. Yeah. Is the face of the Father. Find Jesus. Follow Jesus find the Father, and Jesus. Now, sorry, the father is watching. Right? This man he's watching. He's watching everything because on the appointed day, it tells us Amen. I believe you know, the Bible, it tells revelation 1911 to 16 tells us that Jesus is coming back. Come on Lord with us. He's leaving his army in the battle and coming back the judge. Yeah. So I don't know. Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper  38:30  
You can't. You can't.

When you when you look at David again, right? He was anointed. He was anointed as a young boy. Okay. But what we've got to understand that because he was anointed, he was anointed by God. Now his brothers were rolled out in front of Samuel. And Jess was sitting there and they were all fine lookers they were told I was big pumped up. I was they were warriors. You know, I made no, it's just

seven. Simon's In fact, you know, those.

Those all day was there. They looked it.

But send me away. It.

It's not, it's not what you look like.

But what I'm trying to get to here is really important. See, Samuel said, Is this his issue? Is this it? But just said, Now I've got the younger one out in the field. Now what's really important is that so Samuel, sorry, went and said, Look, you got to bring him in our way. I'll stand up but just get him in. So when David walks into the arena, what happened? God said, He's the one reasonable

God

calls God anoints.

Simon Pinchbeck  39:41  
Not only

Reverend Ben Cooper  39:42  
Yeah, but the false gospel tells us that we can be a pastor.

We can be a leader,

Simon Pinchbeck  39:49  
you everything, just verbalize it. vocalize.

Reverend Ben Cooper  39:51  
I think you're an evangelist? Hang

on. No, it's changed next week. I think you're an apostle and what? But it's what we got to get over here. It's God anoints

Transcribed by https://otter.ai