Reverend Ben Cooper  0:01  
Welcome on and Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast eating church in Swanley. You're joining myself Reverend Ben Cooper and my great mate. Simon Pinchbeck

Simon Pinchbeck  0:11  
we're back again

Reverend Ben Cooper  0:12  
we're back again with back in the home of truth in the home of truth. We're back here in Elim Swanley It's so good to have you with us we're going to be chatting and just having a bit of banter you know these podcasts are great because we can be open ya know, and breathing down our neck of way.

Simon Pinchbeck  0:28  
I've been this isn't a real punch and smelling it and I will use it what I have to show you.

Reverend Ben Cooper  0:34  
Is it is Jerusalem. It's really holy.

Simon Pinchbeck  0:41  
It was Paco Rabanne or Aramis

Reverend Ben Cooper  0:46  
mould in that corner. It's got mould in the corner of this building. It is not nice. Is it a sweet smell?

Simon Pinchbeck  0:52  
Oh, let's do a top 10 aftershave Shall we

Reverend Ben Cooper  0:56  
we can't afford to shave his top 10 on bleach from

Simon Pinchbeck  1:01  
those two more about

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:03  
let's talk about Jay Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck  1:05  
that's where we're at in and this is what I've come over this way to talk to talk about his wife

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:12  
and we're social distancing.

Simon Pinchbeck  1:14  
I've stopped over as of put my mask on I've took a life in my own hands Yeah. And we're

Reverend Ben Cooper  1:21  
here and you're at Gonzales good goes girl wise supplies go go We'll get you out my friend but it's so good. Do you ever see her and even church in Swanley? You know we laugh and joke and mess about but one thing is for sure is that we love Christ and as we enter into this lockdown period of 30 days of lockdown This is a time when we are really all being stretched and we can't miss about we can't it is it is critical for I believe I wherever we are in the world to really see Christ because everything done one on one does it sorry

Simon Pinchbeck  1:56  
it doesn't work. And I was I was asked the other day before we get into what we're going to talk about it I was asked the other day to small two minute video on on hope for for some men's conference. I have got to think in hope you know hope and and hope for the secular man hope for a man in a world without Christ is ism is your money is your mission. Yeah, that's your job. Yeah. Your hope is in your two week holiday in the sun every year Christmas and all that sort of thing and, but hope for hope for us in a Christian,

Reverend Ben Cooper  2:35  
completely different.

Simon Pinchbeck  2:37  
It's the promises of God in it is only uniform only through Jesus Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper  2:43  
It can only be done through Jesus Christ. There's no other way. That's where my hope rests in Christ.

Simon Pinchbeck  2:50  
So as a born again, spirit full believer, we have forgiveness for our past. Yeah. We have peace in the present. We hope for the future.

Reverend Ben Cooper  3:01  
Amen. I love that. That's really good. But he sized.

Simon Pinchbeck  3:04  
But you know nothing about us.

Reverend Ben Cooper  3:07  
Nothing about us in Christ. But that on that subject that you're talking about hope to get to that position is that you might go through the wringer of life. Well. And you've got you've really got a dig in your faith. Yeah, you know, it's easy to be hopeful in it when everything's guns beautiful. You got beautiful aftershave on You're looking good. You're as or jailed. You know, and you got white teeth. You got a nice car in the driveway. It sounds good. Your hope but like when you've got nothing we're

Simon Pinchbeck  3:40  
talking about? Yeah, the situation here even swimmingly and and it's it's very easy to out when you've got a guaranteed few grand coming in. Yeah, every single month. Yeah. But when you don't know what's going to come through to the bank account. That's right.

Reverend Ben Cooper  3:54  
And that's where we sit here and in church, you know, we do not know what is coming through and we are we are literally trusting God continually for financial support. That is, that is our biggest enemy we are fighting you know, none of us are on wages in and out now as we're just looking after the building which

Simon Pinchbeck  4:13  
in itself, a big distraction con it

Reverend Ben Cooper  4:15  
is a massive distraction. Because in the back of my mind all the time, I'm thinking God, I've got to pay the electric electric bill, Lord, I've dropped the direct debit office or what's what's, what's going on? What's going on? Look, where are you Jesus? Where are you Jesus, but you know, God always supplies there is always a way forward. And so when people taught me about the prosperity gospel, I have to laugh, you gotta

Simon Pinchbeck  4:39  
listen. But when people talk, you hear all the time. Oh, I'm stepping out. I'm living by faith. When you've got X amount of thousand pound coming in a month. Yeah, really living by

Reverend Ben Cooper  4:50  
faith. You're living off what you've got in the bank. Best thing to do there i think is whoever decides that. They're living by faith to give everything away and start again. But that's fine,

Simon Pinchbeck  5:01  
but I don't think God wants you to do that. But I don't think he wants you to start banging on about living about fakers. You mean

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:08  
could you not live your life? You know, got a look at. Okay. So I've got undergrounding the bank, I've just been working in a city where a great job god coulombic call economy ministry. Yeah, I think he might be, which is

Simon Pinchbeck  5:23  
very limited by five by five is when you hear them fellas sitting around a table with nothing to put on it, nothing you put on it as sitting there laying the time. Yeah. And dangling. And then a knock comes at a door and a food parcel arrives. That's his living

Reverend Ben Cooper  5:42  
asset. That's how we are here. We look at this table and we think we've got X amount of pounds to get and to keep this place moving God, you're gonna have to do a miracle, you're gonna have to do something. You're gonna have to do something to keep this moving. keep the doors open. That is faith, but with faith is fair as well. Because there's a fresh side of make. Oh, yeah, no, this is easy. Yeah, I'm standing on the Word of God. And I've got this in the bank. And I've got this and I've got that. And I've got a nice stipend. And the church has given me a house or no, that's great. Yeah, I mean, look, we've been talking when you are living social housing. When you make that one. I live in social housing. I am a social housing tenant.

Simon Pinchbeck  6:25  
I could say I live in a cardboard box. But I'm not going to because it's not literal. But when you to try and beat it. But when you look at your wife, yeah. And she wants money for the shopping.

Reverend Ben Cooper  6:38  
load. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  6:40  
Where's it coming from?

Reverend Ben Cooper  6:41  
They're coming from?

Simon Pinchbeck  6:42  
Yeah.

And she wants new clothes. And she was looking at best. And kids want shoes and the kids want stuff. That

Reverend Ben Cooper  6:49  
that, that you talked about a completely different area you're talking about different. And that is the issue with when you look at the church in the UK, you know, you can go and plant a church when the Mother Church is dripping in spondylus. You can do it you can do it money will get you to do anything, but go and plant a church with not don't take your best musicians. Don't take your best chairs. Don't take your army, your leather coat don't take all that sort of stuff. Don't take a checkbook say we're gonna go and plant a church over there with nothing. Don't even know we gotta pay the first rent on the building.

Simon Pinchbeck  7:28  
A guy Oh, no. Did something's a little bit like that. He's a guy Mark type who's quite gifted musician. They went and lived on a on a Council of State in in Ealing. Yeah, in London. Yeah. You know, and they started up church on that they got sort of a little flat on the estate and was living actually with, you know, with that community. And it was interesting, because it's different levels in it. So yeah. level. A group come up from South Africa. Yeah. From the townships over there. Yeah. And he was showing them around and the guy who was leading the from the township said, Mark is this is this poverty in the UK? He said, yeah. I said, this is luxury. This is

Reverend Ben Cooper  8:18  
the luxury in South Africa. What a difference. A difference. complete an absolute difference. Yeah. And that's where I you know, bone in Swanley. You know, I've lived on this estate home all my life, I've grown up in this environment. It's all I know, it. So I'm very familiar with this area. I've seen it go for art ships and good ships, you know, and all that sort of stuff. So this is this is normal. To me, this is normal to me to scrape around in the back of the sofa for a quid. You know, I mean, it's the normal, you know, and it's not because I'm faithless. It's got nothing to do that. So when people start talking about the prosperity gospel, it doesn't have no meaning to me whatsoever. No, no, to live by faith is literally go God. If I don't get a tenner, this week, I can't pay the kids dinners for schools,

Simon Pinchbeck  9:09  
or you can't put fuel in a van

Reverend Ben Cooper  9:11  
to deliver to deliver the phone. That's where we sit. It's been real. It's been real people need need church ministers and the church to be real. You can't say on bundles of cash, and then outside your Windows as a church, you've got people hungry around you. You can't do that. That is not Jesus. It's not It's not.

Simon Pinchbeck  9:34  
It's not what he did is not what he reached. And I don't know I don't know. But it's, what you do is amazing. There you you know you and you spend a lot of time in a local hospice but you're feeding were you feeding over 1000 people a month for

Reverend Ben Cooper  9:52  
up to 2000 2000 2000 people a month and it's only going at once With this Yes, yeah. So

Simon Pinchbeck  10:01  
with the new lockdown,

Reverend Ben Cooper  10:02  
you just you talk about that, you know, we are not this COVID-19 is not the issue. It's the hunger. That's the issue. What's been highlighted for this period is how hunger is and I'm not talking about uh, you know, we gotta be careful a word this because we are not starving, hungry in the UK, you know, like what we see in other parts of the world. But what we have here is a pandemic of the shortage. There's a big chasm between social housing. Yeah, and the monarchy and the rest. There's, there's no, there's no link in between the system cuts off at nine o'clock, starts at nine o'clock, sorry, it finishes at 530. You know, it. So here where I am situated, we're feeding schools, local music academy that is done a great job. We're feeding our people and the reach is enormous. That's where that's where the pandemic is the it's, it's the poverty and it's not so much that it's not the homeless, it's the ones that have been furloughed. It's the ones that have been living on the on that, you know, that line, that fine line between a credit card and, and this and that, and bang. So we're seeing an array of all types of people coming in and out of this church. And we're seeing we're praying for period. What I'm seeing basically is a new church emerging

Simon Pinchbeck  11:31  
a new church. Yeah, that was,

Reverend Ben Cooper  11:32  
that is what I'm saying that my eyes have been open to so much more fruit is. So we talking about living by faith, you know, it's a completely different world to me. I hear stories of people having churches with absolutely dripping with it. You know, I mean, and we like, who are done outside probably got for under 50 quid in the bank. Thank you, Jesus. Hallelujah. Yeah, I

Simon Pinchbeck  11:53  
mean, when direct debits to go out, and

Reverend Ben Cooper  11:56  
so me, Brian stretch. So when we're talking about faith, faith and fear, I'm very close together, very close together.

Simon Pinchbeck  12:04  
So for being a man, it's very easy to slip into that fear. And

Reverend Ben Cooper  12:07  
it's very easy to try and to done if it's the right word, but as a man in Christ, a real man for Christ, it's very difficult balancing your faith and your fear because money, money problems don't go away. Unless by some powerful move of God that you get extracted into an area where money isn't the issue. And it's not it's because it becomes our God. It's because is we know it's a way of trading. Yeah. So there's something you're thinking I can't put shoes on the kid's face. Suddenly, I can't get my new uniform. And in a minute, what what the gamble error is? Do I put another pound in the meter for the electric? Or do we buy another loaf of bread? It sounds a little bit, hang on a minute. This is real, real life. This is real Britain. This is real Britain. So being a believer. In Christ, I see many different areas of men, following Jesus, a man following Jesus that has a lot of money is probably in a worse position than me. Simply because I don't have enough money. And I am looking out for a miracle every day. But when you got money, you can easily make money your god. Oh, yeah. So you've got two ends of the spectrum. You got two ends of it. But yeah, it's like, faith and fear. So being a man for Christ, I find it really difficult. I'm strapped every day. Because every day You, you, you want that peace

Simon Pinchbeck  13:43  
and you want peace. Yeah. You want inner peace, that yes, that your faith will give you?

Reverend Ben Cooper  13:49  
Yeah, but if you if there's a bit of fear creeps in, and you be imported all the time, all day long. You're gonna be in product all day long. All day long. You're looking at the front doors of this church, and you're thinking, How long can this keep How long can you sustain this when, when but God always makes a why. So wherever you are in the world, wherever your situation is, if you trust in God, He will provide for you. But he's not always the way that you think he's gonna provide.

Simon Pinchbeck  14:21  
And not always at the time

Reverend Ben Cooper  14:23  
was at the timing.

Timing is critical is vital. Yeah.

And it's like, so where I live here in the world living Swanley. You know, God is moving in this town, on how I laugh and I joke about all that and you know, but there's a great need of salvation in this town. There's a great native God and He is here. He is moving and there are people in desperate need and I prayers, God, just touch lives, just touch lives. Just Just do your great work. You know, I know we're talking about Real men for Christ today but being a man for Christ when you ain't got you ain't got a well if you tell me pockets that you're gonna find the fluff. So you're gone by faith.

Simon Pinchbeck  15:10  
Yeah. And and he's given you a real new direction. Yes. Church and the direction is Yeah. Bringing Jesus through the food bank,

Reverend Ben Cooper  15:23  
you know the food.

Simon Pinchbeck  15:24  
Yeah. Jesus and people saying, you actually walking the talk, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper  15:31  
oh man I don't know down at wrote that down

Simon Pinchbeck  15:34  
and but you you will you will have people that that will take whatever you give them but you know people that that take it and want to know more about Jesus Christ when he you know. Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  15:49  
that's right and that's what we're about here. We're all about Jesus followers. That's it that that's what we've been stripped back to that is what and that's what we've learned over the years is that you've got to go by faith, but it comes back to the same thing I can understand when the disciple jumped out of the boat, and that man jumped out of the boat. I see j is equity as Christ I jump out of the boat I've jumped out in faith and walking on water, but then the storms of life and this blackness and he and I need to be very careful not to look at the storms that are around me. I got to keep focus on Jesus because the one we're talking about faith and fear that run very close together. He jumped out in faith. He walked in faith Christ was in front of him, but he took his eyes off or Jesus took his eyes and that sounds like a character in the Bible in that day

tonight David

what you got what you got for today say it's okay to say that I love Jesus when I've got a nice job I've got nice car homes or pay for gentlemen but when you've got now this is not a whoa oh woe is me thing this is just being real. This is just being real as your situation is the situation and I know that there are thousands of times worse than what what I am but but just trying to bring some understanding Yeah, I might have I might be Reverend Ben Cooper but at the end of the day that doesn't mean nothing. It means nothing titles are nothing

Simon Pinchbeck  17:20  
in actual fact I'm just thinking that some of the people who come here to get hold of a food pass Yeah, yeah. And they might be looking around and thinking well this guy's got a few probably natural fat you probably were suffering Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  17:36  
would you believe this effect golfer info parcels because guess what? It helps make sure yeah, that's that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at on a couple of few paths. Yes, but I've been trying to rattle McDonald's pipe for some gift boxes but I will never keep going to drive for insane I got no food place a Big Mac and chips it's for the local Vicar did I my whole Joking aside but being a been a man for Christ, whatever level you're at, whether you got the money they got whether you ain't got the money whether you got the car you ain't got the car wherever you are. Now we are talking about something completely different now following JC is an individual thing. It's not corporate it's not a body thing anymore. It will come back to the church the church will reopen but we're in 30 days lockdown all that sort of stuff that's very relevant with with the book of Daniel chapter six you got to read that Daniel chapter six the the the government officials and all those were coming against Daniel because he wanted to pray and I could not stop him praying and I just launched him into the lion's den interest in that we're in third days lockdown what's happening it's an attack a spiritual attack but people listeners might go out what you're talking about and got a clue what this is a spiritual thing on Christians This is

Simon Pinchbeck  18:57  
shut down everything that gets shut down a lot and is the is the thing Yeah, we don't want to go really down that route but there's people that would just addresses piano cafes just crawling themselves back.

Reverend Ben Cooper  19:14  
Bang, bang the system

Simon Pinchbeck  19:16  
and and what frustrates me Ben is that we've done everything our toes done everything and you're worn these wet mass things that are socially distanced. But I am enough

Reverend Ben Cooper  19:32  
I am enough. I am enough. All my clothes are sanitized and covered and Vaseline, all that sort of stuff. It can't get near me. But it's still not enough. It's

Simon Pinchbeck  19:40  
not enough. You ain't been you know, two meters between you and the missus.

Reverend Ben Cooper  19:43  
Yeah, yeah, that's

Simon Pinchbeck  19:44  
pretty closely. Enough,

Reverend Ben Cooper  19:50  
it's not enough. Number 30 day long, another free day. So what God is doing Yeah, it's it's stretching he Humanity. And then you got then go beyond humanity. It's stretching your faith to stretch

Simon Pinchbeck  20:05  
in your face or being

Reverend Ben Cooper  20:06  
a man for Christ or the provider of the home now, suddenly you're at Harlem, you might have been furloughed. 20% of that 20% is a massive thing. So we're talking about fullback, we've seen a lot of people coming in here just because because of the lockdown situation, yeah, but things are happening. So what we've got to remember is that we're just just got just hold tight to Jesus. That's all you can do. It's all you can do.

Simon Pinchbeck  20:34  
And the thing is, we said before, things looking good, because things looking bad. And, and Jesus and the God hasn't finished with this world. He looks at it. And what he wants, he wants more souls.

He want He wants you to

win them as the winner in whatever way we can. So you'll you'll win these people fruit, a fruit of Food Bank, because they're seeing you actually walk the talk. They Yeah, they're getting a reassurance that this is just not not a one off. This is not

Reverend Ben Cooper  21:07  
a thing.

Simon Pinchbeck  21:07  
This is not a gimmick for the local church. So you're gonna throw a few, you know, give them a bacon roll every now and again. No, no, this is here. This is happening. Yeah. And they come in and they're seen Jesus in action.

Reverend Ben Cooper  21:21  
That's why I got remarried. We are not part of Trussell trust, we're not a folk bank. We are literally backing you're doing it for the missional church that I believe the church should be doing. It's just giving, giving, giving, giving, and no questions asked no strings attached. Just give you on phone, we'll get it to you. We don't know how but we'll get it to. You need it. We'll do our very best to get to you. Listen,

Simon Pinchbeck  21:46  
we don't ask questions.

Reverend Ben Cooper  21:47  
We don't ask questions.

Simon Pinchbeck  21:48  
But you don't have to fill out a form challenge your income or not. Now you take that parcel. And if you're responsible, you're responsible. If you're doing it on the slippery if you're doing it on the slide, you're doing

Reverend Ben Cooper  22:02  
it to you. Yeah, so as a believer, so what we are doing is we just don't we just don't have it. Yeah, I'll take it to a mention. I'll leave it I'll take it to Lizzie's our southern montane at the London drop a little fruit parcel at the gates cold these come out we go got a bit of pet food. I'll give it to anyone. Because it just we are us. The church here the missional church we are just giving out

Simon Pinchbeck  22:26  
if people are asking you're given. Exactly. And so you don't want any wastage. You want to order go, whatever.

Reverend Ben Cooper  22:33  
That's right. We're fighting food poverty, we're fighting hunger. And what would Jesus do? He would just he just gave me He gave he just gave gave no strings attached when he died on that cross.

Simon Pinchbeck  22:44  
And we spoke about it. Before just before we came in, we said that the beginning of this pandemic, there was a lot of Christians out there sitting back and thinking oh, this is gonna be a godsend this for revival people are going to turn to Christ. Oh, no, no, where

is it? Now there? No,

there's not going to happen.

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:05  
If anything, Simon could we actually be honest that it feels that God's got even quieter. Because this the church has been so noisy we've activity it's all God fueled when actually it's all flesh fueled. It's all money fueled. And it's not faith fueled.

Simon Pinchbeck  23:23  
So all that's been stripped away, stripped

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:25  
away back to basics,

Simon Pinchbeck  23:28  
but people are people. Yeah. And is a phrase in the Bible. In Proverbs, I believe it is not a nice but people will return to their farming.

So go out.

Some Yeah, people get off a bit of

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:45  
light. That's right.

Simon Pinchbeck  23:46  
And we saw it the other day. Yeah, we changed the end of blue Ward accused again tomorrow

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:50  
morning at 10 o'clock. Was there ever no meat in there a little girl, our tastes are more manly.

Simon Pinchbeck  23:57  
The queues will stretch round and

Reverend Ben Cooper  23:59  
round the traffic going in. But it's fair everyone is doing it because it's fair. We're hoping the shelves off will stock up or this or that. You know, and it's fair, fair is driving everything at the moment. And we got to look at ourselves. I've got to look at myself as a follower in Christ and go God on nature every day. On Holy Spirit, I needed to be my comforter, Father, I need you to to be my my Heavenly Father, you got to provide for your

Simon Pinchbeck  24:28  
son, you got to provide because that that fear, yeah, that fear if you're not in control of it, can ball, drive it to other things? So unbelief.

Reverend Ben Cooper  24:41  
And that's done it to me. And you know that that text in the Bible where it says and the disciples went by, I'm going fishing. On going back to the old things. Yeah. Well, they've seen Christ on the cross and, and they was confused and he had been put in a tumor and they and they said, You know what, I'll go and fish and I'll go back It can it can be so easy to go back to your old ways go back to your old sin go back to your old life you got back a pattern

Simon Pinchbeck  25:15  
go see the Reverend come

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:16  
say love it yeah well she got grown in his loft copters I was one he was crying

Simon Pinchbeck  25:28  
because he smartly chose left his carving because it from the

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:36  
church. You must be the Holy Spirit. Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck  25:40  
no, he stayed

Reverend Ben Cooper  25:43  
away from all that stuff. Oh, I go we're gonna go No, yeah, no, we're gonna have we'll have to place on that door in a minute with any cups and everything but jokes. Yeah, done done. Wherever you do. Besides the building Do you want a food parcel? Come in and five 5000 bananas is growing bananas in the loft? Is something going on?

following Christ. Look, we look at David think about David. Think about David, young shepherd boy grew up all the way through at 19 on his life. Saw King so you know, when when Saul started to see David was starting to get more powerful in garden. David didn't really realize today then Saul got jealous and his son Jonathan, getting the heads up and said look you better You better watch it. That's the sort of thing. So when you look at David, when you when you study David in the Bible, the Bible says that he had a he had and he has a heart after God. Yes. But when you look, when you when you first open his life from birth to death. He dabbled in everything in everything. Yeah, he had his fingers in all sorts of pies.

Simon Pinchbeck  27:01  
And yeah, he had he had a lot of unbelief at a time because He even went and pretended to be a nutcase. You know, to the Philistines just wanted to be part of

Reverend Ben Cooper  27:15  
this right? Didn't he? So when you when you look at this, this this character, David, when you look at him from birth to death, and it's like, it's a real man for Christ

Simon Pinchbeck  27:27  
is a proper fella. Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  27:29  
he's a proper gazer. He added a proper

Simon Pinchbeck  27:32  
man. If you look at his life, I mean, just he does some absolutely amazing things. He does. Yeah. But the other one. How's this in the other day? And it really brought home to me that he had one. Secret sin if you like, Yeah. That was a thread throughout his life. Yes. And that was lust. Yeah. Lust for pretty women. Yeah. He took on a number of wives. Got a number

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:01  
of wives today.

Simon Pinchbeck  28:02  
Even at even took, was it Michelle? That was Yeah, the wife that she was. She was married already to a fella. She took her. And she was the one that despised him because he was dancing. Yeah. You know, and she probably despised him because he took her away from her husband. Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:24  
think about when you really think about this. It's secret saying all this it goes on. You've hit a word that I do not think I've rarely heard this word. But you mentioned in in the world of the church last

Simon Pinchbeck  28:39  
last year, last

Reverend Ben Cooper  28:40  
year, the Bible talks about?

Simon Pinchbeck  28:42  
Well, one john 216 talks about the lust of the eyes, done it the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life, but the lust of the eyes is I want that. Now, that could be the summer material thing, but a lot of time. Especially in and around churches. It's it's I want that woman or I want that man. And God has said that to me. I mean, we'll come on to that in a minute. But if we, if we if we look at David's life at a time when things were going great for him it either established it was winning all the battles. Yeah, it established a great kingdom. He come back to Jerusalem. He did things were going great for him. And it said to me, he said a time in the spring when men go off to fight it. David stayed at

Reverend Ben Cooper  29:36  
home though, so that works for one.

Simon Pinchbeck  29:41  
For the first time Really? Probably Yeah. And is the thing because he did. And this is a thing because he'd actually exercise and shown that he had that lust that they're not been dealt with. Then the enemy laid a trap for him. Yeah, the enemy the trap for him and he Laser track for all of us. If you are if we don't Yeah, sort out that sacred sin. But he was at home and

Reverend Ben Cooper  30:10  
everything around it everything around him and a wonderful family. Yeah.

anymore, could you? What more could you ask for

Simon Pinchbeck  30:19  
the enemy later a massive trap he was at the time in Tibet just right, didn't it? It did. So he walked out onto his balcony and looked out. saw a beautiful girl. Yeah, Bathsheba who was? It's the Bible tells us clearly Surely she was bathing. She's probably naked or whatever. And he had a desire for that woman. Even though she was married. Exactly. Even though she was married and what happened there? So he had the lust, which turned into adultery. Yeah. Which turned into then conspiracy. Yeah, because he was conspiring to get a boy or husband back what he wanted to get him drunk. So he slept with her. And then he conspired to murder him. And then it was actually murder because he sent him back and job. He said to Joe put him on the front line, and he got killed. So he married. What if this is a man or this

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:12  
is the man of God that has a heart of that, God.

Simon Pinchbeck  31:17  
But it's that secret,

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:19  
it secrets to suicide

Simon Pinchbeck  31:20  
is the flesh. That's birthed the temptation lust after

Reverend Ben Cooper  31:25  
everything murder,

Simon Pinchbeck  31:27  
the law. He couldn't see until Nathan actually came to it. Yeah. So he was operating in the flesh. He wasn't going to go for his was he? He wasn't gone, but he was operating completely in the flesh. And Nathan had to say to him, you know about he made he made a story about a man who had a lot of sheet. Yeah. But soccer Alam from someone who only had one. Yeah. And David said, Who is he? Oh, I'll kill him. He said, What is your issue? And then he went into a period of repentance and sorrow. Gosh, and, and you could leave it there. And you could say, yeah, David. David repented and we'll leave it at that. But but but if you look at his life, yeah, after that time, yeah. That the child he had that Yeah, but Shiva Shin he died. And yeah, yeah. His family went into turmoil. Oh, absolutely. Sons, right. His daughter rose up against him even chased him out of Jerusalem.

Reverend Ben Cooper  32:33  
Yeah. What do you what? When I think about all this and listen to what you're saying and know what we know about this character. He was chosen. It is quite a it's a quite a conversation stopper here. Yeah, got chosen, got chosen, got chosen to be king got chosen every area of his life that God knows where we're going to slip and slide.

Simon Pinchbeck  32:57  
He does. And so but if you reveal that, yeah, without confessing it, and the enemy can see that as you reveal your answer the enemy. And and there's a scripture. There's a scripture in, in Psalm 47, for that many people use for themselves. Yes. And it says, deliver you're serving the Lord and He will give give you the desires of your heart.

Reverend Ben Cooper  33:26  
Yes, that's a big, big text,

Simon Pinchbeck  33:28  
it will give you the desires of your heart. And it says in Romans 124, I said God gave them into the desires of their heart. So what does what does that mean? So? Yes, if you're seeking God, yeah, if you're chasing after the face of God, if you're chasing after Jesus, God will, if that's the desire, the number one desire in your heart, God will give you that desire, give you that desire. But if there's another Ivana, he'll give you that give you that

Reverend Ben Cooper  33:55  
toe,

Simon Pinchbeck  33:56  
it'll give you over to that. And you can wrap that desire that last up however you want it, because all of a sudden, you maybe start reading the scriptures, which just you think justify,

Reverend Ben Cooper  34:08  
yeah, that may justify your actions. Exactly. He got B. So this Christianity following Christ is the hardest thing that anyone whether whoever your man or woman is, is to follow Christ to follow because you've got to deal with your anger. You got to deal with your loss. You got to deal with your unforgiveness, you got to deal with your bitterness. You got to deal with your pride. Yeah, you've got to deal with all this stuff. And I have to say this. There might be many of us that will journey from a young adult to the grave following Jesus, but are still having to deal with these things on a daily base

to deal with,

I can't I can't forgive that person. God, I've got a last I've got sequences,

Simon Pinchbeck  34:52  
yet sometimes you don't involve God in them, and then you don't and that and that becomes a problem. So on on a date. basis you have to ask the Holy Spirit to convict you of stuff that that's, that's going on because here's the thing I've been in ministry with, with guys who do great things for ministry. Yeah. But if you look at some of their life on the other side, they're like secondhand car dealers. They're still doing their little deals were done with their money and whatever. And they and they justified out. Yeah, and they say, God, God one look at that, because I'm doing this for doing that for God. And I turned around me and said, Don't you feel cleanse when you when you witness for the Lord? So will? I feel that Georgia Lord, but I don't need to be cleanse? Yeah. Because, yeah, you know, if you're looking at your heart on a daily basis, and confessing to God, all that stuff, you know, so here we have people that that believe that because they're doing works for the law, works, that sort of stuff, work. So the godel a wink at that other stuff and go, yeah, this is my guy

Reverend Ben Cooper  36:03  
works. This is what the church does, then it works. But when you're a believer, cause we do good work, we do good things is important. But above all, that is my life of Jesus is getting myself right now I have a battle every day of my life, to keep focused on it. Because of the temptations of the world, the temptations of life. issues. unforgiveness, I'm still fighting with bitter ness, guilt, doubt, fear, bag of stuff. Yeah, I got a bag of faith. So this is not a bag of some belief. So two scriptures

Simon Pinchbeck  36:48  
come into play here. The first one is seek first the kingdom, Matthew 633. Seek first the kingdom of God.

Reverend Ben Cooper  36:54  
And that is continuous Seek first the key above all else above all else.

Simon Pinchbeck  36:58  
Yeah. Not because of you. But because now Jesus Christ,

Reverend Ben Cooper  37:02  
right. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  37:02  
And the second scripture is Galatians 220. I have been crucified with Christ. It's not either live, but Christ lives in me so. So every day we have to Yeah, be crucified with Christ and put that stuff down that that you were talking about.

Reverend Ben Cooper  37:21  
You got to lay it down. But when I lay it down at the beginning of the day, the midday it can rise, I

Simon Pinchbeck  37:29  
could rise up again. So it's not

Reverend Ben Cooper  37:31  
a one off thing. Take road righteous. You're putting down a road in the Jesus bus. Hallelujah. You got radio on you're praising the Lord song catch you up. Oh, the old man. The old man comes in.

Simon Pinchbeck  37:45  
You want to chase after him? Give him Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper  37:49  
One Corinthians. Yeah, well Corinthians chapter 11. Love and that covering all that in lava? burst. Oh, God. But yeah. So if anyone says that they've got it completely right. And they're living living everything. And another.

Simon Pinchbeck  38:06  
I saw a great I was working with it with a great church up in the north of England. And I saw they put on this little, I don't particularly like little skits or whatever, but they put on a good one. And this young girl came in and she was carrying a load of black sacks on our backs. Yeah, yeah. Anger, lust, all that. And another fella play Jesus. And Jesus said to come to me, I'll take them bags. Okay, these are defining me. Yes, I want to go yes. But he said, No, I'll take them and you can walk free. And that's what we got to do on a daily basis. don't fit this as a one off thing.

Reverend Ben Cooper  38:49  
Now. It's not a bad guy in a religious box. confessing your sins to man

Simon Pinchbeck  38:53  
coming out is

Reverend Ben Cooper  38:55  
easy. Kevin, you say that. So when anything goes in, you know, it's about it's really, really important that I need to understand that yes, I am a believer in Jesus. But I have issues that are now to the cross of Calvary, I am forgiven. But I the battle belongs to the Lord. And you got to be careful of grace gives us a license. And yeah, kinda like come back and repent an oil. You got to be so careful. I don't know what the the, the older I'm getting. And the more we're going into this pandemic, and where we sit this moment. And the more I want Jesus, the more I realize how far I am away. And then if it's the right thing to say, but it's the quickest way to explain it. The more I want him, the more I'm hungry for him. The more I see my life and I realize I've got filthy rags, totally

nuts. And then he scares

me, Simon says right and

Simon Pinchbeck  39:50  
a good place to be is frightening. And this is a hunger that you'll never, ever

Reverend Ben Cooper  39:56  
then you've got every other song Jesus more than anything, but then the enemy comes along with his with it, everything else just waving everything in your face. So life suddenly becomes a battlefield. Yeah, I've got to focus I've got to focus and it comes exhausting. It becomes emotionally tiring. So

Simon Pinchbeck  40:18  
so what happens is Ben that it does become emotionally tiring. And because the enemy he is you looks at you in these posts stuff in you from from years ago, and it'll there'll be a little something will come in a little trap or something. I mean, all of a sudden your attention is directed to that is what you should be going on. Your mind is directed to that. Yeah, you know, you look at a bank account.

Reverend Ben Cooper  40:48  
I got affairs job back,

I fought we fought we had

Simon Pinchbeck  40:51  
this map. No, we've only got an app now What's happened? You know, something happens. You got to deal with the heat and you got to deal with something when we're gonna get along. It's not a

Reverend Ben Cooper  40:59  
simple thing. It's Wait, it's as simple you know, what we've got this week got issue with a car, taking the garriage mot thinking that'd be 45 quid get a call from the Gary GST show, Mr. Cooper, Reverend Gerber. How are you? Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah. 280 quid. Oh, Jesus keep the car for a week. I'm on mission. Yeah, you friggin got him on and we're gonna raise eight. So do not mean to fear and fight from very close

Simon Pinchbeck  41:26  
together, close together. And what we've got to be careful of with the fear is a sin fear. It becomes doubt and unbelief. And fear and doubt are the enemy's biggest. Yeah, they get people off the track all the time. Because they're fearful. Yeah. And they doubt Yeah, you know is is you know, and the enemy's a massive his big thing is infiltrate. imitate Yeah. And misdirection

Reverend Ben Cooper  41:57  
and nearly so clever are so good at that. But

Simon Pinchbeck  42:00  
But we should not be amazed or confused or or surprised by this because this has happened from the garden. From the garden.

Reverend Ben Cooper  42:09  
Genesis chapter three. Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck  42:11  
Genesis chapter don't really say misdirection, deceit. All that sighs.

Reverend Ben Cooper  42:17  
He said, Are you sure we say Sherry said that. Now look, I was interested in that before I go straight into that. But what he also said to her was, like really clear. He said, you'll be like, God,

Simon Pinchbeck  42:29  
you'll be a little girl. You'll be

Reverend Ben Cooper  42:30  
like a little cocky. You'll understand you'll understand good and evil. And that's what that's that's like an X whetting the appetite in it. Hang on a minute. Whoa.

Simon Pinchbeck  42:42  
But, but we can talk about that, as well. Because there's something we spoke about on a real men for Christ on one of our videos that's going to come out I think maybe today. But Adam was there all the time. He never stepped in now. And he hasn't stepped in.

Reverend Ben Cooper  43:00  
He hasn't stepped in.

He hasn't.

Simon Pinchbeck  43:04  
So this is the I'm gonna just when we before we finish, I'm just want to bring something out that happened in my life that that really chaussure the enemy's trap for this stuff. And again, it's a it's a bit of a last thing, you know, and I was just, just new Christian just coming to faith for htb. And don't forget, I just got back with my wife. She just tagged me back. She's not coming to church with me, but she's wondering what's going on? Yeah, what's going on with male families facing? There's still questions she wants to speak about and discuss. I don't really want to talk about it. Because I'm cracking on with a FaceTime. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm in church, and one Sunday, a lot and going out with this beautiful looking woman. And I recognized her. She used to train in the same gym that I trained in Chigwell in sex. So I kind of stopped her she was there with a sister and a mom and dad and I said, I you know, I was she's, uh, you know, recognize you and she'd gone through some tough times. Yeah. And, and we started seeing each other in church. We started sitting with each other in church. And she was a very attractive woman. And, you know, I've got my wife is not coming to church with me. Yeah. And at one point, first of all, yes, I had a voice in my head to say to me, you're gonna be with this woman. Wow. Now hold on a minute. You see the enemy always over places and he does Yeah, he always saw ya see? Oh, advisor. Now, I stepped back and thought to myself Hold on, man. Yeah, this girl was this one's stunning. She's lovely. She she's she's interested in Me and yeah if I if I'm following this and fine thinking this is the word of God don't and many people do if I'm thinking this is the word of god what's going to happen I'm going to leave my wife again again which is going to ruin a completely yeah my two boys who just got off the drugs

Reverend Ben Cooper  45:19  
Yes

Simon Pinchbeck  45:20  
What's gonna happen in my life I've got to rip apart yes this so is it really a word from God no it's not a word from God and I was I had that discernment to know that this is the wrong thing to do and I step back and right and and and the relationship whatever relationship that was which was only you know really meeting each other in church and maybe accomplish afterwards yeah friendship dissipated went praise God and I've got went back into into relationship with my wife but it could have gone quite easily The other way that me a new Christian yeah terrible witness off with car crash car crash yeah so I'm saying it happens in churches thought it happened were

Reverend Ben Cooper  46:15  
very real

Simon Pinchbeck  46:16  
and and if you're that is the desire of your heart and you're not dealing with it. Yeah, there'll be some other person in church with a similar desire and all of a sudden put this together

Reverend Ben Cooper  46:29  
it clicks Yeah, yes, yeah, no,

Simon Pinchbeck  46:30  
he hasn't because he's gonna ruin

Reverend Ben Cooper  46:32  
one way or the other one way or the other

Simon Pinchbeck  46:34  
one was very, very careful. And that's why is it? There's these scriptures in the Bible that tell us to be to be careful to confess our sins to one another James 516 tells us to to be careful to confess our sins to one another white so that you will be healed. So verbalize that stuff. Get it but first to God as the Holy Spirit complete me Is anything inside of me. Any pride, any vanity, any any stuff is anything that needs to be dealt with.

Reverend Ben Cooper  47:06  
And, and, and is the thing when you pray prayers like that. Be ready, be ready. Be ready because he might think I've been in church or it's been all right. Everything's good. But suddenly conviction suddenly you look it makes you look within yourself and go and you say Hang on a minute. I've got pride issues I've got anger I've got lost

Simon Pinchbeck  47:32  
of where

Reverend Ben Cooper  47:33  
where's it all coming from?

Simon Pinchbeck  47:35  
Yeah, and we prayed we do this thing reveal it Lord, we do this thing called bold encounter where you know it's a one day thing and we're looking to expand it into into a couple of days but it's a one day thing that we do I've done many of them in the UK and we ask guys to ask the Holy Spirit to convict them of any secret sin man and stuff update awake Yeah, stuff comes out and but but here's the thing. We had one fellow that came and said I want to say last he said bark white light lust. So if you like this stuff,

Reverend Ben Cooper  48:12  
yeah. He said they were in a different area. Area. area. Yeah. So you know, the Bible says it talks about love very plain very clearly. It says each man or each person is drawn away by their own loss. So everyone that so that isn't enough. So every human being has something in an on their body that will draw them away from what? God God Yeah, there is something that is fuel in each one of us. That we need to deal with. There is something there is something upon us lower you just say there's something within us and around us. And look what that New Testament writer writes are wretched man, am I Why do I do the things I should not be doing? And I cannot do the things that I should be doing.

Simon Pinchbeck  49:05  
The Bible is very clear in repentance. We got to hate that sin.

Reverend Ben Cooper  49:09  
I gotta hate it. Lord God, I

Simon Pinchbeck  49:10  
hate it. Because why? Because it's got you in shines. It's got your bound out. And if you keep going back, we said it before, didn't we? If a dog will return to its own form Yeah, keep going back to that same sin of thinking oh, Lord, forgive me now. Why would He forgive you? If if you're if you know the very next hour, you've got to go back to

Reverend Ben Cooper  49:31  
it guy got a lot out me. God help me.

Simon Pinchbeck  49:34  
Yeah, I've got to get rid of that stuff. And that is when you are truly free. And also is truly free even when we get rid of that stuff that's bound back bounders up thing for years. You know,

Reverend Ben Cooper  49:46  
God, God works in mysterious ways. And you hear these great testament where God deliver it instantly

bang gone.

But what about the ones that have like the Apostle Paul? Free times God take this away from me. But then he says My grace is sufficient. So sometimes you go through life, having to deal with stuff daily. Daily is on a daily basis daily. Three times I pleaded with the Lord,

Simon Pinchbeck  50:14  
this is what will happen Ben. So you've got to take away things very quickly from for me took away the the lust for money yet the love of drink and swearing went very quickly. But there's a load of stuff still left there for us to work on. Yeah, you know, because all of a sudden life isn't all about but a caption takes it's a lot of you is dirty. It's

Reverend Ben Cooper  50:39  
very tough.

Simon Pinchbeck  50:40  
And we're in we're in this we're in it movies, dentists hiring,

Reverend Ben Cooper  50:45  
it's draining yet, you know,

Simon Pinchbeck  50:49  
sometimes but all we can do is hang on we've covered a lot

Reverend Ben Cooper  50:53  
he got around a table you know, ripping on the edge of the cliff. You are got bags of stuff I'm saying God help me please Jesus helped me a lot. I want to be super holy But hang on a minute. It's time it's time of God's grace and he said journey Ben we're on a journey of life.

Simon Pinchbeck  51:13  
You want it you're in a good place because you're calling out to me you're not around help me walking around think showing everybody your this when really you're that you've got it open.

Reverend Ben Cooper  51:25  
You don't have

yeah open I don't know if this appeals to many people at some days. I just want to run

Simon Pinchbeck  51:31  
you I think we all do from the

Reverend Ben Cooper  51:33  
from the fight. I just want to run from everything as well just want to cut

Simon Pinchbeck  51:38  
you just want to come by and

Reverend Ben Cooper  51:40  
I just want to curl up and just go God I just I can't get up this morning. I ain't got the energy. I ain't got the I ain't got the Fife. I haven't got down you know that you know that you know that? You know,

Simon Pinchbeck  51:52  
and some days if you do get up to you to correct on seven days a week. Some little

Reverend Ben Cooper  52:00  
thing willing catching a little encourage it's just

Simon Pinchbeck  52:02  
gonna be maybe a script, you pick up

Reverend Ben Cooper  52:04  
something or someone sets up somebody says something this burst of

Simon Pinchbeck  52:08  
or somebody froze a few quid in banking.

Reverend Ben Cooper  52:11  
Thank you, Jesus. Hallelujah. Amen. I'm prospering. I got fiber. Look at that a full fiber.

Simon Pinchbeck  52:17  
Is he giving out the alpha news? You know?

Reverend Ben Cooper  52:22  
So this Oh, God, you know, solid. It's been so great to chat as we always do. Yeah. It's so good. It's

Simon Pinchbeck  52:28  
been I think we should just finish on on camera.

Reverend Ben Cooper  52:31  
He finishes off. Yeah, we should have done that. Literally. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck  52:35  
I think we should just listen, we're talking. We'd love you because and what we're talking about is because we love you, we're talking about this, this sin that's theirs in all of us. And we just got to ask the Spirit of God to convict us of it because we don't want anyone to get ensnared in trapped or taken out by it by the enemy. That's, that's a strong and determined enemy. And we're going to talk about the enemy in more detail as we move forward with these podcasts. But right now, if there's something that's on your heart, that the Holy Spirit's convicted you off, let's just get it out. And let's just get it out here. And now right now. And while we're doing this podcast and just say, Spirit of God, is there anything inside of me that needs to be brought out into the open? And if the gods convicting you, if the spirit is convicting you, then Lord, forgive me for this stuff. I turn my back on that stuff. And repent at that stage. And if you've got to say these prayers, Ben said sometimes on a daily basis, sometimes on an hourly basis, yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper  53:43  
you know,

Simon Pinchbeck  53:44  
so. So continue that, bring it out into the light. If someone you know that you can speak, speak, to confess it out loud, bring it out into the light, don't stay in the dark, Lord, and I just want to click on your Son, Jesus Christ, he is my Lord and Savior. And I just want to walk with you and what would a father and just want to feel the warm for the father's arms as I get on burden from this stuff and these chains fall off? Lord, just let me be an amazing witness to you. And, and let me hold the light of Jesus. In Jesus name, amen.

Reverend Ben Cooper  54:23  
Amen. Amen.

Simon, we thank you so much for traveling all the way here. They got to strengthen you and bless you in the name of Jesus. You've been listening to us here at Elan church in Swanley. Please share everything that we do and just keep following Jesus. Amen. Just follow Jesus. Stay safe. God bless

Transcribed by https://otter.ai