Reverend Ben Cooper talks with Brian Greenaway about Isaiah, Daniel, Prophecy and following Jesus.
Reverend Ben Cooper 0:01
Hello and welcome to our podcast here at alien church in Swanee. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper and Reverend Brian Greenaway. Hello, Brian, how are you today?
Brian Greenaway 0:09
Hi, very good. Very good.
Reverend Ben Cooper 0:10
Good to have you with us. We want to thank Brian for his ministry and the work that he's involved in, in the world of Israel. Mao's ministry, and we are looking today in the Word of God, as we always do. That is our springpoint. That is our focal point, it always will be. But we're looking at prophecies prophetic book. And Brian's got some interesting stuff for us. So I'm going to hand over to Brian. And we just want to say thank you to everyone listening, and everything that we are doing here, please share everything that the church is doing here at aliem Swanley. And also, if you want to hear more about the ministry that Brian's involved in, you can find them online, all the social media platforms, or even get on the telephone. And thank you, Brian, for joining us today. So what we got today, where was our springing point today?
Brian Greenaway 0:59
Okay, it was good to be with him. It really is. And yeah, we're gonna look at prophecy in a sort of a general point of view, not so much personal but what the Bible says about prophecy because the Bible is 20 more than 25% prophecy, what is a prophetic book, you know, but when it comes to specific prophecies, there are something like, just over 1200 prophecies in the Old Testament. Five 600 or so in the New Testament, so it's 26%, roughly 26 to 30% of the Bible is prophetic, speaking about things that are coming to pass immediately or in the future. That's a lot means yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper 1:34
that's a lot that's happened in process now. And what is to come?
Brian Greenaway 1:39
Yeah, that's great big book, you know, as far as I have 12, other prophets or minor prophets has been how the massive, massive books out,
Reverend Ben Cooper 1:48
but what a mental to carry, to go into a place and prophesied in an over and through and to say something that you actually don't want to deliver as well. That's the thing I know some prophets, you know, Jeremiah, they were told, oh, prophesied is alone, by the way, God says them, no one's gonna do with no one's gonna take any notice of you know, it's gonna take any notice of you, but, but what's the purpose? Just do what I'm telling you though. Yeah, but no one's gonna take no notice. On a Sunday morning, just kick protein, but no one's gonna listen to you just just deliver it. And that's what that's what's really important, isn't it? to do, what God is calling you to, and just to be obedient to whatever that calling is. That's them. But when you look at the Old Testament prophets, you could almost say there's a little bit crazy. Well,
Brian Greenaway 2:37
there were some characters with them. You look at people like a Zico, you know, his, his prophecy, his book really is, you know, it's a lot about the temple because of his background because of you know, that the the background, he was in the priesthood and everything like this. So that's why it has that sort of pointing towards the temple and everything. And you know, some of those prophecies that he God told him to do, you know, to, to eat food, roasted over dung, and to lay on the floor for days on end, cut off his beard and to burn it and things like this, you think well, that's, you know, that's very visual, that's very visual of the judgment upon the temperature or, you know, laying out the seeds against drusen and things like this. But, but there must be some people might say, who's that crazy guy?
Reverend Ben Cooper 3:20
And how would they look at that today? Even worse, there's some mental health issues there your chronic, there's something not quite right, because what you are doing and what you're telling us that God has told you to do? What what are you referring to?
Brian Greenaway 3:34
When there's a difference, isn't it because what we got to look at with the oldest and prophets in particular is the National covenant. You know, we stress people living in the UK today. God, innocence doesn't have a national government like he did with Israel. You know, the covenant is without the covenants in our heart. Yeah, God made a covenant with Israel. So these prophets were under and through and working through that covenant. So God makes a covenant. He says, you do this, and I'll do that, and they don't do it. And so he sends His prophets to warn them and say, Look, this was the agreement we made. I'll bless you if you did this. So those prophets in the Old Testament were part of that covenant, they were prophesying into that covenant, saying, God said, he's gonna do this, if you do that, and you're not doing it. So there's a difference. Big difference in the prophets of the Old Testament. And today, it's a difference or role, difference or role, you know, yeah, prophet in the fivefold ministry,
Reverend Ben Cooper 4:23
the fivefold ministry, you
Brian Greenaway 4:25
know, is different to that.
Reverend Ben Cooper 4:26
I know we're not looking into that at the moment. But when you look at today, a lot of people call themselves prophets than they are. They are very prophetic ministry in it. And we need to you need to be very, we need to be very, very we're not we're not looking into that. Now. We've got to be really careful of that. But when you look at the Old Testament prophets, yes, what they had to deliver,
Brian Greenaway 4:48
huh? Yeah. And it's interesting, and the one thing that I wanted to sort of look at today was the fact that sometimes the prophecies in the Old Testament in particular, some of the new had more That one fulfillment. That's what I get what Yes, I'm called a dual fulfillment. So that's what I'm going to look at today. And what we've been, you know, want to talk about was how sometimes you look at a prophecy, you read it saying the Old Testament, you read it through you think, yeah, I can see that I can see that come to pass. But why does that part of it not quite match up? You know, why does that not seem to relate to what happened? Because we can immediately think of prophecy we, the main one we think of is where in the Old Testament it talks about Jesus. Yeah, that's that that the prophecy that maybe we're most familiar with, and that the coming of Jesus and how we would have, where he would be born and his nature of his birth and stuff like this. And that's the one that we're probably most familiar with. And even when we look at the prophecies that deal with that, sometimes we think, well, what's that bit got to do with it? You know, that there's a long prophecy there. So why why is that bit not relevant? It seems to Jesus and why is it that you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper 5:50
are you saying that the prophecy arches over time as well, not an instant word that is done finished, then it that what has been spoken about is speaking for years, hundreds of years, thousands of years? You think about what Daniel? Yeah, the prophecies and all that sort of stuff? And time? Yeah,
Brian Greenaway 6:09
Reverend Ben Cooper 6:10
So it might not be relevant for them at that particular point. Yeah. And they might have thought, What's he going on about, but actually, we are the ones that are seeing that spoken prophecy being fulfilled at this particular point.
Brian Greenaway 6:23
But Daniel is an interesting case in point because of all of them sort of major prophets in the Old Testament, Daniel probably has not the most, but he's more focused on the future is apocalyptic. You know, that's a lot of word. elliptic, is a future is very a distant future in time. There's a lot of that in Daniel. Yeah. And you know, people have spent many hours reading, writing, talking about what those seven weeks mean and timescales we're not going to get into that in detail today. But one thing I heard somebody once describe it as someone with a telescope, you know, find out you're in on a mountain race a good way, and you've got a telescope, and you focus on a near mountain YesI. Yeah, and then you focus again, and you look at a further mountain,
Reverend Ben Cooper 7:04
in the distance, so a telescope bringing,
Brian Greenaway 7:06
yeah, so you're seeing two things, you're seeing something near. And you've seen something far, far. And there's another number of examples, and I can give you a couple of examples, ones, let's see. So let's think about this. There's a lot in the prophet Isaiah Funny enough, we won't only look in there, but there's lots of prophecies in in in Isaiah is in the book of Isaiah, about Jesus, and about his coming to the earth, etc. And he's a well known one, this is Isaiah seven, and first 14. And our listeners, I'm sure most of you know who this is talking about It is therefore the Lord Himself, will give you a sign, behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and call his name, Emmanuel,
Reverend Ben Cooper 7:49
now goes on either
Brian Greenaway 7:50
immediately thinking about Christmas only, straightaway, kind of a kind of a manual, sort of thing is that you know, and that's true, that is exactly what that prophecy is talking about. And then we go into Isaiah chapter nine, and verses six, and seven. And it says, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given that the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, from the throne of David and over his kingdom to order and establish your judgment. So it goes on. So we know straight away, that we see that and the thing we think about most of all, is the birth of Jesus, you know, the, the Virgin, Mary, Miriam and the Hebrew, and then also in Isaiah nine about what he would do, not only when he was born, but also in the future as well. But actually, you know, there is an earlier fulfillment in a sense of that, because context is always important scripture.
tend to read the I've read those verses, but who is familiar with Isaiah 5678 and nine, who's read the whole thing through many hands? And you will see that actually is interesting that if you go into Isaiah eight, Isaiah has a son, ah, and his son is Maha shall harsh bus. Okay. Well,
Reverend Ben Cooper 9:11
that's a great pronunciation.
Brian Greenaway 9:12
You know, it did have an immediate, immediate fulfill because because his as his profit sign to the people, and to the king of at time, and he's saying, God is going to do this, he's going to bring this judgment is going to do that. And he's giving them a timescale in their immediate thing. So the immediate thing is now that the virgin the woman is going to be either his wife who gives birth to a son, and there's a timescale because it says that there's other things in this. If you look at Isaiah seven, going back to verse 14, you know, the, therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. And it says later on, for before the child shall know to refuse good and to fuse the evil and choose the good the land that you dread will be forsaken by both kings. You think was that was that about Jesus, but he is not Because it's about what's going to happen immediately.
Reverend Ben Cooper 10:02
So I'll just say that that that's an immediate be speaking directly into that situation at that particular point.
Brian Greenaway 10:09
Yeah. So that's within a couple of years. You think, right? So when does when does a child? When does the child begin to understand good and evil? Is it when they get to four or five minutes, you can be naughty when they're young? Or is it when a child comes of age, you know, maybe at 14 1516. So, without going into full detail, you can see that there is an immediate fulfillment for that. The Prophet is saying, they got a sense of if you're going to have a son, yeah. And by the time he gets to know what good and evil is, then I'm going to fulfill this I'm going to be the land is going to be forsaken by her kings. So they go into exile immediate kings go into exile. So it's a warning, it's a warning about the future. And so you can see the immediate fulfillment, but then it's interesting cuz we still got the other scriptures as well, you see that, actually, this son of Isaiah cannot fulfill some of the other stuff. Now, you know, he's not gonna he's not going to be Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God everlasting, because he's not
Reverend Ben Cooper 11:00
show it. It's just for, say, for now and a few years, but also, the longevity the long term, much further are not holding you to any pinpoint. But what sort of timeframe are we looking at from when that was prophesied to the birth of Christ?
Brian Greenaway 11:16
Yeah, we're looking at hundreds of years. So that's hundreds
Reverend Ben Cooper 11:19
of years study was relevant. Isaiah. Yeah. That point. Yeah. Also spiritually relevant for him for later on. Yeah. And so it's a two fold prophecy?
Brian Greenaway 11:31
Yeah, is it's twofold. In this case, job fulfillment. And interestingly, you just think back, I wonder how much Isaiah understood some stuff he actually brought forward, you know, obviously understood the immediate, and God does use the immediate, doesn't he? Because he's used an immediate situation. Yeah, to bring a prophecy that makes sense to eyes or makes sense to is here is a temporary place, they understand that, okay, you can have a son, within a couple of years, this is going to happen. And so it has to begin with the context that you're in God always does. It starts with the context you're in and what you understand. So he's able to prophesied to something and then the Lord takes him on into something that probably he thought to himself and others who would have listened to him locked in would have said the same thing. There's something bigger than this going on here. You know, there's something Yeah, there's more so. Yeah. And, and it's interesting that, you know, we talk about whether Isaiah realize that or not what David did, because David had a similar thing happened in, you know, he was gonna build the temple gave it. So I'm gonna build a temple. And God said, No, no, no mandible. And your son's gonna do it. And so David said, Fine, okay. You know, because it man after his heart was after, yeah. So but then the prophet Nathan. Yes, gave David a prophecy. And he said, you know, your son's going to build the temple, don't worry. And he's going to sit on your throne. So that's great. You know, we think okay, that's fine. So, you know, Second Samuel, six, and Sam, second time we were seven tells us all about that. And the Prophet says, Yeah, you're gonna have a son, he'll build your to build the temple, and he was sit on your throne. But then the interesting thing about that, that that prophecy that Nathan gave was, it got much bigger than that. Because he said things along the line, if he was to read it, now, we aren't really in depth. You know, Second Samuel seven, he says, This guy is going to sit on your throne, his sons are just on your throne forever. And he will subdue the nation's do you think? A minute. And we know he didn't, because we look back at history. And you know, Solomon didn't end good. Did it really not very good at all was led away from God. And you think, Hey, that was Nathan wrong. But God realized, God, David, realize that something else was happening there, you know, you get this spiritual man. And so when he listened to this prophecy, he realized what God was doing, he was doing something different. He was doing something for the future. And he said, you know, David was amazed by that, you know, and he was he when he prayed. And he said, Lord, you know, this is amazing, you're doing this because he realized that actually, God was making a covenant, another covenant, what we call the Davidic Covenant. And he was giving David a promise that one day someone from his seed, you know, from his time his Yeah, a descendant from his would sit on his throne, and he would rain in a peaceful kingdom. And there would be complete peace, complete subjugation of enemies, and everything like this. And so he recognized that and he said, you know, Lord God, who made this prayer, I don't know you're vain to address the Lord because you realize it was a covenant thing happening. The last time that term had been used was by Abraham and the covenant. So he realized that God was doing these next thing. He was talking about the future. Now, David didn't know how far in the future that was, he might have thought it was 300 years or 500 years. It even knows it was 1000 years later on. And of course, if you look in the New Testament, what do they call Jesus Sunday,
Reverend Ben Cooper 14:53
the son of David, that's what they call him. Look down look in the new term, about genealogy So all the way back Pro comes down in generations is it? The tech see it. So this, this bewilders me to think that this, this this prophetic word came to David. It was relevant then, but also it had all them years to go right down through generations, this word is going to stay right to a pinpoint it. So it fascinates me that these words are given. Yeah, hundreds and thousands of years. And then life goes on. And then suddenly in God's timing, God's God's time, right time and the right timing.
Brian Greenaway 15:40
And David saw that as well. Because he said, you know, towards the end of his life, he said, You know, I noticed that he used this, Toby said, God's I know, it's not always been good with me. And but he knew that God will fulfill that. And we see it in a lot of the songs, what would be called the sort of the Royal songs, again, the roll songs, okay, which has this motif. Now that's a term that's used in the office with a motif, like a picture, an indication of something. So the raw songs have a motif of the king. So that's arms to 1820 and 2145 7289, you're writing down 101 110 and 144. And all of those songs talk about this Davidic dynasty. Okay. a covenant with David. Yeah, focus on the Davidic figure in the Scripture. And we see this dividend if I give an example if we go to Psalm 72. Okay, so it says that a dividend King, yeah, would promote righteousness and justice in the land, he would defend the cause the afflicted, the weak and the helpless, it would bring peace, prosperity, international recognition for the land is a 90 King and it with dominion of the whole earth now dominion over you know, that well, that's not Solomon is it we know is no degree of that in so it was great, because the kingdom did expand. And actually, it was one of the strongest times for them, at that time of Israel, you know, big area of land, peace with the neighbors, in fact, domination of the neighbors, so they would have seen something of that a sign of a shadow, a type, if you like a type the kingdom rule the Messiah would be like, but always often within the, within the Psalms, there is a little bit of sadness, as well, there's a little bit of maybe regret you see in the Psalms, as if David is saying, because often this David Psalms, you know, this isn't quite working out, Lord. This is quite a lot, because it's recognition that there is something, you know, prophetic, something that will be eternal in the future. So yeah, so that's what I'm, that's a be example that it's following that through, right through the Old Testament that there is an element of frustration in the Psalms as
Reverend Ben Cooper 17:51
Brian Greenaway 17:52
because that King is not yet on the throne. Yeah. And he started his kingdom he came, Jesus came and his kingdom is expanding, will never go smaller. And in certain sense, in our lives, we have peace. And we have the benefit of being part of the kingdom of God and eternal life. We have the blessings of God. But even now, it's not fully fulfilled, is it? Because we know No, until one day, one day no more tears, no more feeling weary. And then we're getting sick lose all this stuff, you know, this eventual true fulfill will be in Jesus returns and rains upon the earth,
Reverend Ben Cooper 18:25
the same thing, it's about time, it's about his time. But what you're referring to the coming King, is in his time, no one knows the hour or time all. I know, we can look for certain seasons and work things out, try and get maybe a bit of an understanding a little bit more. But when we're talking about prophecy, it's only God that knows when that prophetic word is going to actually come into being. Yeah, yeah. So when they was giving out these words, they didn't have our understanding of how and when or when the time was, but they was hundreds and thousands of years. They were speaking. I'm coming back to Daniel what he was speaking about. We haven't even Wow, yeah. He must have been sound incredible. like a crazy person. Yeah,
Brian Greenaway 19:11
we need a special invitation to speak
Reverend Ben Cooper 19:13
about what is a thousands and thousands of years years ahead. And what really interests me about Daniel is in Daniel chapter six verses one to 24. It it talks about a 30 day, stoppage on prayer. And we're in a 30 day stoppage of prayer. Starting from now, yeah, it's 30 days. So in Daniel chapter six 123 24. If he was to really read that, what they wanted to do they wanted to stop him praying and worshiping. Oh,
Brian Greenaway 19:53
yeah, yeah, we need
Reverend Ben Cooper 19:55
chapter six. Yeah, yeah. And it talks about the king Now it says the king was pleased. Yeah. And he put 120 in place. And he had three administrators in place. One of them was Daniel. So we to bring this to Quick, quick without going into too much depth of it because the things we're talking about, there was 120. And there was an extra two. So there's 122 that went to the king. Now, he said he talks about the SE traps, it talks about the governors, it talks about the prefect it talks about all the governing body. Now the king was all for de all for Daniel, he was all for him. He could see that he was he was diligent. There was no question. He was trustworthy. He was he was not negligent in any way you done everything that you should have done. And what was really interesting in this text is that it was to 30 days there a way to stop him prion
Brian Greenaway 20:48
interesting. Yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah. Numbers are important on a
Reverend Ben Cooper 20:52
numbers from them. Yeah, we
Brian Greenaway 20:54
think we we
Reverend Ben Cooper 20:55
take we take principles from that. So where we sit today? Yeah, we can almost look at that scripture. And think, you know what, Daniel was going through the same sort of pressure. He was diligent, he was good at each job. He was in a government office, he was an the king looked at him and see that Daniel was a good person. And the king had nothing against him. But what happened was the other hundred and 22 manipulated the king to write a law to, to write a law. So we might have leaders around the world that see good things happening through believers and spiritual leaders. They have nothing against the spiritual leaders. button. The crowd is lifting up the king and they praise the king. No one else come. That's right. We shouldn't we shouldn't be praying to anybody else. Okay, me. No, no, no. We will just, it's best if we just lift you up. Yeah. And that's how they got round it. So when you look at the Prophet, Daniel, he went through some real hardship.
Real hardship he did. Yeah, he certainly did.
And you look at prophets, and you think they really went through some stuff? No,
Brian Greenaway 22:06
yeah. No, Daniel did. The thing about you is, you know, I think that this verse in January, where's Daniel? 514? Yeah, you know, when the handwriting on the wall was, blows my mind, Bush has already has these fees. Yeah, he uses the stuff in the temple when his hand appears right on the wall cetera. And then, you know, they're terrorists, absolutely terrified as you would be. And he calls January. And this is just before that thing. Yeah. And he says any system isn't interesting. So I'll see there's been some disconnection between the king and Daniel. And the den King says, I've heard of you, that the Spirit of God is in you. And that light and understanding and excellent wisdom are found in you.
You know, I think the say, but
and he's able to interpret he's able to interpret and it's because choices Daniel made his life didn't the choices.
Reverend Ben Cooper 22:53
You've said his own choices. Yeah, he
Brian Greenaway 22:55
is. He said, Yes. When God said do this, he said, Yes. He said, I'm not gonna eat that stuff. I'm not gonna live that lifestyle. Think you know, as a youngster, isn't he? Because he's a young man. Yeah, he's come in exile. Yeah. And so is outside of his accountability bubble, is put in a very rich, wealthy place where you can eat anything, do we want, do what you want, he's given the best education, he's given everything. So as a young man may be 14 1618. And so you know, the temptation upon him. But of course, a
Reverend Ben Cooper 23:27
temptation he didn't. He didn't. He didn't say he was steadfast to his calling his instruction. And as you so rightly said, to you the terminology I think the world would use today, is that gonna live the dream? You've got every feature, go and live it? Well.
Brian Greenaway 23:43
A full normal eight year,
Reverend Ben Cooper 23:44
yeah. But he kept to what he's calling
Brian Greenaway 23:47
what he did. That's why the king said to him years later, I've heard of you, the Spirit of God is in you. And the light and excellence and understanding and wisdom are found a new because he had given his life to God at a young age. And he had stayed on that path. He always said yes to God. And so that was why God's Spirit dwells in him. He really was. Stand Out of God. Sometimes when you're stand out, of course, when you're
you get it in the neck, which is what happens of course, as you say, in in Daniel six when those guys manipulated as Daniel ends up in the lion's den, yeah. And the lions could have eaten it. It could I did it easily, but he died and he was willing to die, wasn't he?
Reverend Ben Cooper 24:21
Um, what's interesting is that they said in that scripture, that they could find no corruption. Yeah, he was trustworthy eating and he was negligent. He when he was a brilliant guy we find to follow this man. We know we're attacking.
Brian Greenaway 24:38
Yes. In his people who stand up for what is right. In the end, do they, they they don't. They might say, well, we like you. We like you. But then when you tell the truth, when you stand up for the Bible and stand up for Jesus say, Oh, well, you know, we don't mind you doing all this good stuff. But actually, we don't need telling us about Jesus and about our sin and about the fact we've got to repent, we don't hear that.
Reverend Ben Cooper 24:58
So we look profits you look at David saikyo you're looking at these these men that were given harsh things to say costing they go into, you know, we look at Jonah Oh my God, I ain't gonna drop that word in there. I ain't gonna I ain't gonna mention that. Do you know they're like God? I ain't gonna I will kill me. they'll pull the trigger. You
Brian Greenaway 25:24
know, the interesting thing about Jonah is that it is Joe, if I ask you a question, we're talking about the arms regular the question. So anyway, if I was to say to you, who was the most successful prophet in Old Testament, outside of his own land, and its Jonah is China because Jonah saw now there's no prophecy and Jonah, no book of Jonah, no prophecy in that day. We know he prophesied earlier on in the episode but so there's no recorded prophecy. And he's completely disobedient completely all the time. Yet he is the most successful Prophet, hundreds of thousands come to faith through his ministry said
Reverend Ben Cooper 26:00
something really important. He is one guy that was just doing what he wants. I am going to do that. All the way through, all the way through. But when you talk about success, it's amazing
Brian Greenaway 26:13
that God used him even when he said, he didn't the boat, you know, he hidden the boat, and then they call him up. And I said to him, and it says, he was late. He was running away from God, because he told them so. So he said, I'm running away. I'm gonna run in those days. A lot of the gods. Yeah. And the other nations were geographic gods. They only work within their town or within their city. Cool. Because what he says in there is, I'm a Hebrew. Yeah, I'm a key, the only Hebrew that's his identity. Yes. So he says, and I serve the God of the sea and the land. Yeah. So the he tells him who he is. It's his identity, really. And he but he says, I'm running away from God, as God wants to think he'll get away from God, but he tried to. But the interesting thing is, is that those sailors come to faith in a sense, they start to worship I know so he is in rebellion, they're not this is not on model right? Don't go he will usually don't do that. But there's there's Jonah running away from God, people on the boat, you know, bow down to the God of Israel, I come to know him in that sort of sense. And then when he goes, reluctantly ends up in the universe and does prophesied. They come to faith, and he still hasn't learned the lesson to learn it. So you can either do it the easy way or hard way. And God will do what he wants to do
Reverend Ben Cooper 27:32
is that you can be really interested and God will use you. Yes. But these characters are not what the church would choose. Are they No, no, no, no good. Jonah? Yeah. He's not the sort of guy that you will go to not you're going to live that word. You look at his character for someone else to do content Jonah Jin is like always rebellion. He's always doing this. He's always donate. But like you said he his message was just uncomfortable. People come in
Brian Greenaway 28:07
Yeah. He did have a prophetic ministry because of course, he is in you know, the the histories of giving prophetic ministry. So he is a recognized prophet.
Reverend Ben Cooper 28:16
But his rebellious streak is fresh flesh. Lee's is Jonah is his flesh. Jonah was just very,
Brian Greenaway 28:25
very well. Yeah, we can understand it. You know that the understanding of Jonah is because these kingdoms that he went and prophesied. So in Nineveh, they were cruel and wicked kingdoms, okay. And they were at that time it was struggling in the kingdom, it was because I was going to fall. So Jonah knew that if he, if he prophesied that if they repented, then they would get prosperity and stability. And if they got stronger than they'd come and invade Israel. So he's thinking, Lord, I don't want these to be I want them to be destroyed, because they've been before we know it, they're gonna be knocking on our door, they're going to come, you know, through Mesopotamia and invade Israel. So he's thinking I can, you know, I'm gonna, God, in my god, you don't understand this situation, you need to do is let these people be destroyed, then they won't destroy us. But God has His purposes and plans because he said didn't either he would bring kingdoms against Israel to teach that lesson. And so in a in a whole picture of it, God wanted to do that. That was his world, but he can understand, you know, Jonah's reluctance in it.
Reverend Ben Cooper 29:25
Yeah. Because he knew the culture. He knew he was going into thinking, yeah, they're gonna bring on Bama. They're gonna listen to me for now. They're indulging in everything. They're not gonna, they're not gonna stop their ways, because a man has come in and said, The Lord has told me to tell you this to go against their lifestyle completely against their beliefs. Yeah, but he did it. He delivered it. And the rest is history. Yeah, yeah. So when you look at the profits, that ones that got us, you know, powerful stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Powerful.
Brian Greenaway 29:58
I mean, we've looked at quite a bit, haven't we? Yeah, I'm going to give you another example of Isaiah. Because, yes, you know, Isaiah sort of starting in about chapter 42, and through to the early sort of 50s. Now, the interesting about Isaiah is that it does chart Israel's history through rebellion and restoration, the first restoration, but then it also talks about in times as well, because it talks a lot about the Messiah. But there's what they call another motif. Image. Yeah, in Isaiah starting around 42, of what we call the suffering servant, or motif. Now as I 53 is the outcome of that which many of us know which we'll come to in a minute, but it starts in Isaiah 42 verse one with, Behold my servant, who I uphold my elect, one in whom my soul delights, I put my spirit upon Him, He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. Now, the interesting thing about that, and if you read through 242, right through to 53, in that whole area, is there's like an interchangeability. Now, if you go to ties I 53. And of course, many believers are very familiar with that because it speaks about the suffering. Okay. You know, it says, surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows yet we're seeing them stricken, smitten by Gordon afflicted, he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement for our peace was upon him and by his stripes were healed very, very thin. And we know that that talks about Jesus because it does it talks about him going to the cross, and all the things that happened around that time. Now, if you ask many rabbis, yeah, don't think they like this chapter. who that is, they will say it is the nation of Israel,
Reverend Ben Cooper 31:38
I actually saved the nation,
Brian Greenaway 31:39
or is the nation suffering? And you might think, oh, what a load of rubbish, but actually, it is, in a way there's a context in time, because there is an interchangeability with Israel suffering. Okay. So if you look for me, those are all those chapters right the way through and you see that the language of the Prophet interchanges between a plural and singular. Okay, so yeah, we have to answer. ignore that. Because if you really think sometimes, you know, before before yet here now, oh, Jacob by seven at Nitro whom I have chosen, and you think well, we will see. Yeah, what's he talking about? Now? Sometimes God uses Jacob, because you know, Jacob became Israel. Yeah. Do any encounter God. So Jacob is in a certain way. Their old name? Yeah. saying don't act like Jake anymore. Be a prince with God be Israel. So sometimes God uses Jacob to Satan. Don't act like that. I called you Jacob to be a prince with me. Yeah, to be Israel with me. But sometimes you're still being a Jacob. Okay, so that's happening now. Yeah. But we read those chapters, those 10 or so chapters, and we see the interchangeability between corporate Jacob Israel, and the one person, right. Okay. So ultimately, yeah, the full fulfillment of this, these chapters as you go through, and you read them through, and you see that in Isaiah 50, ultimately, it's about the Messiah coming and suffering for our sin and dying on the cross. And it's so clear that chapter, you know, the whole of as if 53 is so clearly talking about the suffering the Messiah upon the cross and dying for our sins, and all of that achieved and everything. And, and so that is the the ultimate and primary fulfillment of that scripture. However, there is, in a sense, to those immediate listeners, how Israel has suffered. Yeah, in front of the nations, you
Reverend Ben Cooper 33:33
see, read it. Yeah.
Brian Greenaway 33:35
interpret it that way. So
Reverend Ben Cooper 33:36
that's why they that they hold on to that. Yeah, that's it. It's not about the comments. It's not about Christ. It's about Israel as the nation.
Brian Greenaway 33:44
Yeah. And even if you move, now, you're moving on the book of Isaiah here. And yeah, they have suffered, and they will continue to suffer in rebellion against guardian. And, you know, we Daniel was in exile the Jewish people in exile. And of course, if we look down through history, the Jewish people have suffered terribly. You know, and they might look on ways. So they might look at things like we're at the desert, one of the one of the Psalms of David, where he talks about his suffering, and these people see his bones sticking out and he's dry his, his throat becomes dry
picture, isn't it? Yeah. And they would say that's the Holocaust. That's the Holocaust. They say because of that, you know, I mean, obviously, yeah. You've seen the Holocaust. Yes. After the Second World War on the cameras, mainly in horrible pictures, horrible, terrible. And they will say, Yeah, well, that's that's us. That's the Jewish people suffering a nation they the nation's suffering, they would say that and yeah, you can say yeah, it does, has got that image. It has got that picture, of course, and they will say so you can Interesting, isn't it that very looking at sort of Jewish interpretation of the Bible, Christian interpretation today, we see their fulfillment nearby where they're suffering and the time visor and just asked around that time in xR, we see Jesus, the ultimate fulfillment of that prophecy. Yeah, 2000 years ago, but we also see Jewish people saying, Oh, well, this happened 6070 years ago. And in the pogroms, and it happened in the you know, in the Crusades when people suffered and died, they were suffering, because they are the Son of God See that? We think of the seventh being Jesus. And he was he was a servant, he made himself a servant. He says, the Philippines, you know, became a servant, the current servant to the point of death. So that's a seven but also that the that one of these are names of God's people is the servant, the servant of God. So they say that as they themselves because they have identified and served God, they have suffered for it.
Reverend Ben Cooper 35:34
So that their interpretation has been themselves themselves
Brian Greenaway 35:36
Yeah, you're suffering Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper 35:39
prophecies really interesting. There
Brian Greenaway 35:40
is that sort of intertwine ability Yeah, my wife helps us to understand it
Reverend Ben Cooper 35:44
helps us to understand cuz it's, it's flexible. You got to be careful, you use our word, the Scripture is flexible in it, because then you get into manipulation. going, I'm not referring to that we're talking about how it fits as the individual and also fits as a nation and how they see that not, we're not, we've got to be careful of interpretation. people interpret scripture for it to fit our own sin in their lives. And
Brian Greenaway 36:11
again, very careful
Reverend Ben Cooper 36:12
that we don't refer to that we're looking at context. Yeah, in context. It's so so so important. But it's fascinating prophecy. biblically, biblical prophecy is like it when I think about Daniel again about able to speak and speak and speak and be his interpretation of the right and on the wall. And the way he could do that the way
Brian Greenaway 36:35
God gifted me the prophecies didn't think at that time at that time, but then future as well,
Reverend Ben Cooper 36:39
but the future,
Brian Greenaway 36:40
of course, ALMOST SPOKEN half is in the book of Daniel, you know, you get the immediate context of the historical Yeah, story of Daniel and his immediate prophecies and how God preserved him, then suddenly, he has this visitation for the back end of the book, which is all very apocalyptic very future. And as I said, as we said earlier, lots have been written about that.
Reverend Ben Cooper 36:59
So now you can we say that probably that Daniel is probably the, the one that is more studied, the most looked at the most stuff written about because of its apocalyptic stuff in the future, because that fascinates people doesn't it that does all that sort of stuff. So as soon as you start talking about profits, I'll automatically about the listeners but myself, I think, Oh, yeah. Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel
Brian Greenaway 37:22
is one of the most difficult isn't it because of that, gosh, brazen
lie and what this means and you can have lots of interpretations on it.
Reverend Ben Cooper 37:30
And that's, you've said it there, you've got to be so careful here. interpretate that and be careful that you don't make it into something that that isn't so it's very difficult, isn't it?
Brian Greenaway 37:39
Yeah. I mean, yeah, that mean, that's just a couple of examples. Yeah, just there are loads of them. You know, there's, you know, there's, there's things like in AI is equal 28 we see what's called the lament over the king of tire. Yeah, where Ezekiel laments over the king of time, it has really does the king of Tyre, he boasted he was a god. But God said, I was gonna throw him down into the pit. So that is God speaking to another Gentile Kingdom at that time and saying, I'm going to do with you. But of course, it has another meaning overlaid on to that because in that in verse 12, as the 28, we see him is really addressing Satan, he says, Son of Man, take up alimentation with the guitar and say to him, but says the Lord God, you were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone was your covering. You were the anointed cherub who covers your clean looking of time, so he would be 1000 years old. And so there you overlay the immediate prophetic words of the king of Tyre what God is going to do to this nation, but also he has a double meaning because he's actually dressing a God is speaking to Satan and saying you correctly you could take my place. Yeah, so it's looking back now. Looking back, I usually take my place but I'm dealt with you.
Reverend Ben Cooper 38:53
How can you write this stuff in it? It can only be God because he's speaking directly there. And then also he's dealing with satanic oppression. He's dealing with Satan and he decided he was you had all the splendor you had everything he's on YouTube for handsome everything he was using the garden in the Garden of Eden,
Brian Greenaway 39:15
I try it, but it just shows you the immediate context because what God doesn't do he doesn't say oh, by the way, I'm just going to tell you about Satan's history. Well, that would be you know, he sort of he God weaves the immediate context with some greatest spiritual principle into that and you see how far Satan has fallen You know, it tells us about in there in is equal 28 got amazing, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper 39:36
so it's in one direct one conversation got in dealing with now. And he's also speaking right back into time. Yeah. Or future future. It It can only be God Of course it can. So you can't write like this Kenya without it having the power of God and the Holy Spirit fueled because it's impossible. It's impossible. prophecies very, very powerful. And it needs to be looked at to where we sit today to where we've come from what has been fulfilled what has to be fulfilled? Yeah. So there's a lot in prophecies in in the timeline, the timeline of life, but where we sit in prophecy, and what is to come after us? What has come before us. And we need to be careful, but we don't pull things out of context. We
Brian Greenaway 40:25
do. Yeah, yeah. So that, Daniel, Daniel 927. Again, this is quite interesting. Yeah, because this is like more than one fulfillment, one in the past, one further on and one in the future nine you don't you're 927. And this is talking about the, the covenant that we made with it. So in Daniel 927, it talks about this he shall, then he shall confirm a covenant for one week. In the middle of the week, you should bring an end to sacrifice and offering another wing of abominations, this term abomination is used and we see it again, further on Daniel, 1131, and 40 shall be mastered by him and they shall defile the century fortress, the National take away the daily sacrifice, and place there the abomination of desolation while in Daniel 1211. And from that time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation set up there shall be 1290 days. Now, we're not gonna look at all those dates and times and things. Because That'll be all afternoon. There's lots to be said. But when was that fulfilled? You know, when did that come to pass? Well, we've heard of Alexander the Great people have now when is he died quite young. 28 c 32. It was young. And his, his empire was split into the solicitor metonymic employers, okay. And there was a ruler in about 168 around about that time King, and Joker's epiphany is the fourth. And he came into Jerusalem, he captured the city, he marched into the temple, erected the statue of the God, Zeus, the Greek goddess, and he sacrifice a pig of all things, all things, okay. So, as far as Jewish interpretation goes, Yeah, that is the fulfillment of Daniel, basically, that is the abomination of desolation nation, he, he gets away with a daily sacrifice, does away with it, and he brings in this this statue of a false god and sacrifice a pig. So yes, that is the fulfillment of that. Just one. Because Jesus picks it up in the Gospels and he says in Matthew 2415, therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, and then it's got a bracket, right, which is the author saying, Yeah, whoever reads let him understand. Then in Mark 1314, so when you see the abomination desolation spoken about the desolate, he says it twice there is recorded twice, just for writing writer, so and he warns that those who are left should flee to the mountains. Okay, so, so, so, okay, so hundred and 60 years earlier, the interpretation is that the abomination destinations happen, but Jesus picked up No, hang on, when you see it, so his heroes would have thought, I thought the price was when that was under, you know, so he's back 30. Now, so that was really 200 years ago, why is Jesus picking up on something we think it's being fulfilled? So he is talking about the future, isn't he? So yes, he but he is not only talking about 8070, when Titus came, the Roman Emperor went into the Holy of Holies. Well, now there wasn't anything in there. Because the Ark of the Covenant gone long time ago. Apparently, they said that, you know, they fought their way in there. And he walked in, and it was completely empty scandal. But they, of course, they in the end, I mean, that they set up false gods on there. And after 135 ad, they destroyed the temporary order, set up temples to their own gods and everything. So there's another fulfillment of that, that Jesus is talking about. Now, you're wonderful in time preachers, and we're not going to do that too much detail now. I'm looking for that day to happen again, Antichrist and I saw him going to the temple mount some way and setting up worship to him as well. So that's really that's your big one. Really, if you're going to look at any of these, that fulfillment back in 168, that fulfillment in 80 7080 135 and the fulfillment in the future as well which we'll talk about for ages, but we're not going to do
Reverend Ben Cooper 44:16
that that's big I guess
Brian Greenaway 44:17
that's that's a big one that isn't it. It's really interesting prophecies
Reverend Ben Cooper 44:20
really interesting when you when you start to sit back and you start to unpack it and you try to look at it and work it out. And so Brian, we thank you so much. You know, Tom has gone so far who God Willing will if the Lord terrorists will continue this on and will go on Have you got anything the closing Have you got any closing?
Brian Greenaway 44:38
Well, I think that all these things, we can be assured Okay, that God is the one who holds the future. But he is the one who's he may not understand but we don't need to know that's important thing. Yes, we should have understanding we should pray we should study. But it doesn't make you a better Christian. If you understand what color bubbles means you fall out. They say Oh, yeah, you know, who are the fifth silver martyrs or what Does the power horse meaner people Christians have argued over the six years discussion. But you know, the ultimate thing is that we worship Jesus. We be like Daniel, we say yes to Him, we follow him. We work for the extension of his kingdom and we want to see other people come to faith. That's got to be the most important thing and it
Reverend Ben Cooper 45:18
is that simple. It is follow Jesus.
Yeah, Brian, we
thank you so much. You've been listening to myself and Reverend Brian Greenaway of Maoz ministry. You can find them online. You can follow everything they do a great, great work that they're doing, Brian, we thank you so much. Please share everything that we're doing and keep safe remembering the 30 day lockdown starts today. Keep praying, keep praying, follow Jesus. It's that simple. God bless. Stay safe and we'll catch you soon. Bye bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai