Hello and welcome to our podcast here at Elim church in Swanley. Your joining myself Reverend Ben Cooper with Chris million this afternoon is dark outside it has been raining. You might hear a few noises on the roof because our little room a little studio. It has all the echoes and all the bells and all the whistles of everything going on. This is just roar, podcasting. We don't have any editing suite to cut anything away or take anything away. This is just real as it comes straight from our voice into the system and out to all the lovely people around the world. Chris, thank you for joining us this afternoon. We are blessed to have you here and we are going to be reading from Psalm 30 Is that correct?
Chris Millin:Correct. Thank you for having me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And let's be honest, we ain't got a clue where this is gonna go but God is the conversation. He is the way the truth and the life and last week he been listening to Chris's part of his life story of the world of music, the word of praise DJ and and all that sort of stuff. That's where the conversation just goes on. So Chris is going to read Psalm 30 and we'll just be chatting, we're just chatting.
Chris Millin:Shabbat shalom.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Praise the Lord. It's Friday.
Chris Millin:Psalm 30, verse seven to 12 this is the passion translation. I was panic stricken and became depressed. Still I cried out to you, Lord God, I shouted out for mercy saying, what would you gain in my death? photos to go down to the depths of darkness with a grave sing your song? How could this dust declare your faithfulness? Show me now. Lord, show me your famous mercy of God being my savior and rescue me. Then he broke through and transformed my wailing into a whirling dance of ecstatic praise. He tore the veil and lifted me from the sad heaviness of mourning. He wrapped me in the glory garments of gladness. How could I be silent when it's time to praise you? Now my heart sings out loud bursting with joy, bliss inside that keeps me singing. I can never thank you enough.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Praise God, what a beautiful song verse 11 has really got me. It says in the nrv you will turn my wailing into dancing. He removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy. I love the word. The word is power cushy come from an upbringing, a background of music of praise and worship and and all the elements that go along with that. And he the line of work of ministry. I don't not use the word work, but the line of ministry and the calling are in. You go into some real dark, worldly places to get the gospel carried over and to do anything that you do. How, how difficult Do you find that going into them sort of places?
Chris Millin:Well, for me, my upbringing wasn't in the church. I didn't become a Christian. Yeah, find Christ when I was about 23. I think 1994 so I think it was even 25 actually, anyway, so my upbringing was always around music, musical family. My mom was always singing and dancing and my grandpa Shea my granddad was a jazz pianist.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, wow.
Chris Millin:uncle's in a band played guitar was had bass amps around him and stuff. And he gave me my first double turntable. But he gave me two turntables in a box with two phono wires and a mic mixer. That's, that's how I that's how he got started. So got started. Yeah. But um, so the club environment for me, a lot of people would go out to get drunk to the bed. Yeah. But for me, it was just a place I could immerse myself in the music, shut my eyes and dance and just feel free. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:music for you worship music is a real connector. It really connects you.
Chris Millin:Well, I got when I go to clubs now. Yeah. If I go, I go over long standing friends who have not yet many, many years, who hasn't committed himself to Christ. And for him music is the highest thing. Music is the great thing. But for me, I can only I often. I will often go because I've got that relationship with my friends and I can appreciate some music but but as I explained to him and to my son like there's there's a ceiling. There's only so far you can go with music alone. Okay. If you want to go further, that's when worship when worship comes in. That's when you break through that ceiling and you go to a higher level. Some people say music takes you high Yeah, music can take you high, but there's no higher place than than the heavenlies. than his throne room. And I can find, you know, I can understand the lyrics in a certain way in my mind, or I can really tune into some gospel orientated lyrics, and I can worship my gods in that secular place.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay, so you mentioned in worshiping your God, we know that God, the God of Israel, our God, the King of kings, and the Lord of lords, we talk about worshiping the God of all the great I am for the power of music, but just as you worship, and praise God for the power of music and worship, there is music that's out there that is very influenced by a satanic could could I say, rhythm? Could I say, howdy a trance is there, when you go to these areas of when I think of some of the battle, I mentioned, some of the names, I'm thinking in the back of my head, I don't wanna mention them. But there are some there is a lot of music out there that is very heavily influenced through satanic oppression. So obviously, if we are worshipping God, for that, there is only another one that you will worship Satan. Do you think that there are a lot of people that listen to this music that really understand that there is a satanic element to that? Or they just get in this trance, this fire this, this feeling this this euphoria of music and don't really realize it's just music? So have you? Have you seen that you experienced that where I know you said when you was in IB, and IB for us in that club with in that ministry time? And you said, or the others, I think you said you left at a certain time and they and your your brothers and sisters felt that there was a heaviness? So have you experienced that anywhere else before? Have you come across that sort of heaviness?
Chris Millin:Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of the time people aren't really fully aware of what's going on spiritually. Although there are an obviously with this scene, it comes hand in hand with substances. Yeah. And people take substances that for them. Unlock. Unlock,
Reverend Ben Cooper:unlock this door to this. Yes, that's
Chris Millin:but but the Bible warns us about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, and some of these strikes will give someone in inverted commas a good trip, yeah, or a bad trip, you might have a good experience or a bad experience. But the danger, the danger is that you're opening yourself up spirit gateway. And, and and you you can't really, you're not really in control of that you don't know what's what, what might come in and influence your life, you know, or if you open your doors like that in your life, you're asking for trouble, basically, because you're just inviting spirits of all kinds to come. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So there's both sides of the cross. As we know, there's both sides of this. There's the music that is worshiping God. And there's this music that is lifting up satanic realms. And the reason I'm referring to this is because in verse 11, it says, You turn my wailing into dancing. So dance is an expression, dancing an expression in you can express yourself in many, many ways. So if you can express yourself to the God of Israel, that we worship, when we stop, obviously, there is an error element, because there always is, and there always will be two sides, the right side of the cross on the wrong side of the cross, you know, so we need to be very careful to what we listen to Don't worry, as well. And dance is a way that you said and we all know that dance is a way of really just have of just expressing how you feel and and just the your emotions and everything for your for the way that you are built that you can express how you feel through dance. And I said to you before that I've called on social media this, these guys that are just are so gifted the way that they dance, and they're dancing. And they're like having these dance offs and all this sort of stuff that's going on. And he can watch that there's this like, there's this show this battle being being portrayed in front of you. And I must say it's very fascinating, fascinating watching what happens with these these dancers the way they express themselves. So the way you express yourself through worship is because you're you're expressing your love and your your worship for the God of Israel. But then there's another side to dance. There's very dark and very bleak, and some music out there. You know, there's some real heavy stuff that goes on out there. So you need to be very careful that you're Chris, when you go into these clubs do you feel when you go into these clubs That there is a heaviness the roofing Oh, on this side here, I can feel this.
Chris Millin:Yeah, for sure, definitely. But just taking a step back to what you're saying about the dance offs and people expressing yourselves in dance. And just wanted to focus on that for a moment. Yeah. Because people a lot of people might be able to relate to, if they went to watch a ballet,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes.
Chris Millin:Or an opera where there's Yes, there's dancing and Yeah, lots of people have a spiritual experience. And they say it was wonderful. Yeah, people might go and not really get it or understand it, but others will really understand. You know, even without a weapon spoken sometimes the message pressure of what's happening here. So there's an example of dance as a spiritual language. Just like talking in tongues. Yes, is a spiritual language, we don't necessarily understand it might feel something else per se, something else spirit. Music is is a spiritual language. So you know, you could have you could have been in a been in a place where someone called Courtney pine was playing a saxophone solo, no lyrics whatsoever. I don't I just, I just become a Christian at this time. And I was at an open air festival, and he was playing this tune. I don't know what tune it was. But he held this note. He just had this note in it, and it went on and on. And I just broke down. sobbing my eyes out at this at what was this? I mean, I question myself, why is that? Why is this why am I Why am I crying? You know, but obviously, there was something that was coming through His Spirit and the music that was in your spirit touching your
Reverend Ben Cooper:emotions.
Chris Millin:So and that is, you know, you asked the question about, you know, walking into clubs and being aware. Yeah. of the dark darkness. Yeah, absolutely. And I wouldn't recommend anybody to to do this Christian or not. Yeah. Well, especially if you're Christian, actually, just to go off on your own. Yeah. to these places. But, but going pairs, you know, if you're going from missional point from a missional point of view, yeah. You know, Jesus Senate that the disciples Yes. in pairs in terms. Yeah, if you're in in pairs, you can watch out for each other. You can pray over each other and pray together, you can be in agreement. Yes. has an agreement. No need to be in agreement. You know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So the expression of dance is, there's always been there's nothing new under the sun. And when you think of when you think of David David, a fantastic warrior, King, shepherd boy, poet, but he expressed himself didn't he? In some ways, he played the heart. Yeah, so he was a musician. He danced before the Lord. And they said, Look at him being a fall before an ESL before before my God. So expressing yourself through worship is so powerful. But now we are in COVID-19, we cannot express ourselves in the church. So the church is looking in for a different lens at the moment, because there is something as we know, and what we are talking about, obviously, is that when there are more people gathered together, when you worship God, you really feel and you get in that presence and you're worshiping God, and you're just in this place of, of complete, lift in your prize up to God. But now we're in COVID. What seems to be to me is that expression of worship is being stifled, is being stifled is big. You can't you can't, the churches a lot. We get all that we understand all that. But when you look at what's happening, is that if you can stop worship and prayer, you are you are our spiritual freedom is been attacked, and we are being stripped back. But what we got to understand is we don't need to be in a place that we call a church to express our worship, because you said last week that you've been in clubs and places where DJs and yourself have put worship over the airwaves. So we need to maybe now the church is in a position where we can't think about when I got back, I can't wait to go back to worship now is a time to worship in your home with your family, that we can be anywhere on worship, because you've made them really clear and made made me realize that you can be anywhere and play the gospel music and whatever vibe that is that you are bringing over but a godly, godly presence for music, and it changes the atmosphere. So if it does it in a club, it would do it in my house. I'm not restricted to worship in the church.
Chris Millin:No, yeah, that's right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's only God.
Chris Millin:God tells us the Word tells us quite clearly that God lives and dwells in the praises of his people. Yeah. Now if if God's presence, wherever God's presence is, they can't be evil at the same time. So, so if you if you've got something evil bugging you, yeah, then Praise God. Because, as you don't mean praise God for the evil thing. I mean, yes, please be given thanks. You know, it says, enter His gates, we enter the gates with a shout, yes, a joyful noise. We enter His courts with price. That's how we come into His presence. Yeah, by praising him and people. Yeah. You know, especially in these times, it's like when you know where it's got, you know, where is my god, I can't come to my usual place. But we but it doesn't matter where we are, you know, we can we can rejoice in him. And he can powerful he can set a straight like that Sam said in? Yeah, that we just read that we just read, he turns our panic stricken depression into whirling expressions.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. So there is power in worship. So what I'm trying to convey and get over it without doing too much rambling is that if I find myself in a position where I can't, I can't even get the energy to pray, and our God, I can't pray, Lord, maybe I need to express my love for God through worship through song because there is and as you said, in the Scripture tells us that there is something so powerful and spiritual about Stein to praise God, Stein to praise him start to lift inside to worship. And music is such a way to do that, a way to express yourself singing, you know, and just lifting and praising God, and I'm thinking of, of the king in the Old Testament, where the king was challenged. When King josephat King josephat, that great powerful, Old Testament King realized that the enemy coming over this hill was too fast for him. But then we know that He fasted and he prayed, and he sought the Lord and the nation went into fasting and prayer. But, but what they done at the end was is they sent the praises, didn't they, the praises down into the battlefield, that to me is barmy. But there is power in worship, because they went out and wash it. They wasn't armed. They wasn't equipped as fighters on warriors, but they was praises. They knew how to praise. So that tells me that they are as much as a warrior in worship than you are with armory. And like David comes to Goliath, and he says, you come to me with all your fine sounding weaponry, but I come in and name the name. So when we put the name and the name of Jesus into worship, when we start there in it, it aggravates the spirit world, demons flee at the name of Jesus. So if there's any listeners out there thinking, you know what, I'm not really a prayer warrior, and we don't I don't think we realized maybe say all of us just might know what I'm talking about myself. Now. There is power in worship. And it is so easy as a pastor to Sunday morning, what we got seven songs, we got chunk for two songs, get the songs knocked out and done, do the notices do scripture, doo doo doo and, and, and now is a time when I'm really thinking about worship, the power of worship, you know, I've been on the other side, in the other side of the cross in Ibiza, so I this is what fascinated me right now that the power of song, the power of the rhythm, the power of the message. And you said something last week that was recorded on the podcast, but it's been making me think about it all week that you said that you I think he was with with a guy or so some some of your colleagues in an area. And I think I think you might have been in there in this. You're correct me in the moment. But what fascinated me Was he said when the music came on, and was it the spirit fell down? What was that song he was in a club or some replace
Chris Millin:movies in Pascha in Ibiza is my first time I've been there. I hadn't been too much myself before. Yeah. But as a group of Christians, we were at an event called incense, which was a worship event. Yeah. And it was the second second year that had been running. And it was it was all about really infiltrating the dance culture and the Norfolk industry, with the influence of the gospel. But there was a general consensus amongst the group that we wanted to go to this iconic place called Pascha. Yeah. And, and see for ourselves. You know, some people have been there before, and others hadn't. But this is this this is the field that God is it was lady many of us to So there was a very renowned DJ, Todd Terry, who been who was one of the masters at work crew in the original days. And he was he had a regular set there. Yeah. And he was banging out this set. And not as far as I know, does he? Is he really that gospel orientated? Yeah, he suddenly played an acapella over his music. He played an acapella by trumaine called spirit fall down. And it's a pure gospel piece of soulful singing. And he was over these beats, you had spirit fall down. Wow, me. You know, he had this whole Yeah. So as you know, that place, we're looking at each other. I was thinking, Wow, this is amazing, you know, right in the middle of this setting where there was strippers, people, Babylon, all kinds of exercise, some that you wouldn't even know what sex they were standing on these idioms doing these exotic dancing or erotic dance, say, Yeah, all of a sudden, this, this element of the gospel comes in there, which was amazing. Some of us left at that time, soon after that, and but the group that stayed there said that it became very, very dark after that, Oh, God, the dancers that were more dancers, they were more erotic and it was very, very dark. And they they cut off from what they were doing and just went into pure intercession, interceding over the place, and they report back to us that after about 20 minutes, all of a sudden, the DJ started this different DJ started playing gospel house and he said, the whole atmosphere in the place just lifted, changed, just like that. And so they really put that down to the fact and you know, that they were having influence, you know, over the atmosphere by their prayers and intercession in that place. That's
Reverend Ben Cooper:so powerful, that is so powerful. And it just makes me realize the power of music, the power of worship, that this music comes over this dish he's paying, and it just changes the atmosphere, the spiritual warfare and what you're saying that how his club had everything going on. It just sounds like so old testament to me. So, so very real. So so real as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the end of time and, and you think to yourself, God is working in that place. God is using every element every environment, to to speak to people to save people. You've got everything breaking out pole dancers, strippers, drinking, drugs, everything breaking out, that is so ungodly, idolatrous worship, and then suddenly, the music changes, the Spirit of God falls. That actually leaves me a bit speechless to think how powerful that is. And correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, but it seems to be like where the church doesn't want to go to. But he there is a calling for sisters and brothers in this area of ministry that they go to, as well just it just it just absolutely blows my mind, the more I think about it, I mean, Psalm 137 here at the moment, first while it says by the rivers of Babylon, where we sat down, and we remembered Zion Boney in the years I've heard this song, the years I've heard I mentioned this before, but it fascinates me that I can just go back over time go back over time where where you see this group coming on and if you hear them in the clubs and all that, then the place erupts people singing in but they're singing songs. That's right. Did they know
Chris Millin:I think a lot of the time they don't Yeah, I was it was a long time into my walk that I before I realized, oh yeah Barney in their tracks if the love gospel orientation and then there's candy Staton you know, young hearts run free
Reverend Ben Cooper:sub song in it Yeah,
Chris Millin:but she did more recently she did.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You've got the love and
Chris Millin:yeah, there if you listen to the lyrics that is a gospel song and it's one of the it's one of the biggest club anthems it is yeah you know of all time and there's and she is a full on born again Christian she sometimes I feel like from
Reverend Ben Cooper:my hands up in the air.
Chris Millin:You got the stroke finally to see referrals. That's right. Yeah, that's so Lord. She says on it as well. Is is bang on forgotten to release another one after that called hallelujah. Anyway, which is all about praising God in your circumstances. Yes, he is a gospel artist. She's one of the Americas. She is American. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:probably grew up in a been in the Gospel scene in church,
Chris Millin:yes, out in the Gospel scene and had a secular career but her music that she releases now is all gospel. And I've seen her I've seen her do not I've seen films of her doing live sets. And she will always throw those gospel tracks in and, and you can say, you know, that is the joy for her. You know, when you see her face as she ministers these gospel tracks and you can feel the Holy Spirit in it, you know, to set pure secular crowds. I mean, that's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's what I mean pure secular crowds. That's an I was in net of secular crowds as a number late, whatever way I look at that, singing and I remember that, that coming over being played and all the other things. And last week, you mentioned as well, were Brit chat about James Brown, how he influence people for music.
Chris Millin:Oh, here's the here's a massive, massive influence. My first step into music really was hip hop. And in the 80s a lot of hip hop was heavily changed brown influence, there was lots of James Brown samples, lots of funk samples from James Brown or from James Brown influenced funk artists. Yes, yeah. So he he had a massive influence on the whole of the hip hop culture and so I started looking into James Brown I think I might have said it before when I finally got to see him on video The first thing he was saying was a you need to get yourself robbed but God
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a great show, right God
Chris Millin:I know Yeah. And I thought he was crazy you know, I thought it was crazy but but then realized enough I think I've said that before as well that realize that most of the artists that I listen to work with gospel art you know come from grown up or come from the church and that that did really get me to think in our there must be something in it you know this what is it about the church and then I started thinking oh, maybe it's because it's a time environment for people to you know, home their gifts. Yeah, yeah, I might start going too
Reverend Ben Cooper:far But yeah, so
Chris Millin:my heart softened towards the church you know, in because I thought well, you know, if nothing else, at least I can learn you know, try out my raps on
Reverend Ben Cooper:the crowds. But test it Yeah. I love Jesus now I'm going to rap because that's you don't see that over here in the UK much do it's a bit of a strange thing because there's a set pattern that the way British people worship the Lord very, very, very rigid, and I'm pulling to get a bit of steak for that but the majority you know, it's very rigid it's very Keep still don't move we're I think we're very frightened of expressing ourselves because of what people might say
Chris Millin:some absolute rubbery it is absolutely is a Robert the best music is out there in in the secular field.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Chris Millin:It's been said a lot, you know, yeah. If you were to soft rock and you're Christian into soft rock, you know, you've got Yeah, you know, you've
Reverend Ben Cooper:got the whole you got a whole bag of
Chris Millin:everything. Because there's this slide when you say Christian music people think of soft rock.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So yeah.
Chris Millin:But what is that now? Seek is a vehicle whatever music it is, is a vehicle for the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Or for a satanic spirit or just like a human spirit? Yeah. But it's always it's all it always will carry something. It's the spirit triangle, it
Reverend Ben Cooper:will
Chris Millin:and it will cut in it can accommodate that can be made to accommodate an A and or either.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, right. Because we think of as the Lucifer we don't give him any any movement whatsoever. But he was the chief worship musician, whatever way we look at that he but he wanted to be worshipped himself. So you've got these two sides of the music, you've got the we've always you've got the spiritual right across the board. But then you've got the line everything in between godly and satanic. And some of the stuff that comes out over for radio for different means you can you can really hear the satanic and you can see how it captures certain age brackets of people, that that the enemy uses that music to grab kids to grab kids because if we can grab the kids and use but we don't realize what's happening. Do we think what we're listening to it's music, a bit of a bit of a light word music but what is in that music is the words and the vibe and the trance, and you got to be so careful over you what what you actually listen to? Have you ever listened to any really dark stuff that you fought over?
Chris Millin:I've listened to some I've gone to sleep listening to Pink Pink Floyd actually, wow. And, and I found I found that the way that the music went, it changed the speed of my heart it speeded up, and it changed my sleeping pattern. It made me sleep longer when I, you know, might be late for work, actually. I was on nights at a time and, but I just remember thinking, that's weird. I was in a set routine. But when I listened to that, it kind of like, yeah, put me into a deeper state of sleep. But I didn't feel that it was a good thing. You know, I know that good. Sleep is good for you. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:I didn't feel comfortable to feel cup. So you're so what you're saying about
Chris Millin:it wasn't he picked it up in your search, or there's something spiritual about that music. And some people might just mildly disagree with me, but for me that, that I had a thing in my spirit that I'm really comfortable with that. And so, you know, taking that band up the question, the Holy Spirit, or the darkest, yes, can inhabit, though, you know, though, if you've got a band is playing music, and all of those band members are spiritual beings. And we can get that can like, evoke all sorts of things. And then that's carried in the music. And when you listen to that music, you can't always put your finger on it or exactly explain it, but it makes you feel in a certain way. Okay. But you know, I'm not an expert.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now. It's just just just generally chatting. It's also fascinated me, the old folk music, all that when you're watching music has fascinated me. But suddenly, just last few months, since we've been talking about what we're talking about, and doing what we're doing it, I suddenly realized, you said something really interesting that whoever's playing them instruments, they are a vehicle for one side or the other. And maybe a lot of these musicians don't actually realize what what spiritual powers are behind the music. But do they because as you said, you are you are a vehicle, you become a channel, you become an conductor, or whatever way you want to look at that for one or the other. So it does, it does have serious implications, what you play, what you sing, and what comes out of your mouth. Hmm, for sure, for sure that we can we can say this car, you can see this
Chris Millin:kind of kind of love, love to do this, but, but I will give an example. And because it might offend someone, okay, but they're rolling stones that attract cool sympathy for the devil. And the first time I played that, and I think it was, I don't know where it was exactly, but the first time they played that they had the Hells Angels were the security for that festival. And someone got killed. Someone got killed during that, well, the very first playing of sympathy for the devil. Just by the very title sympathy for the devil. That's obviously Yes. You know, leaning towards here, you know what kind of
Reverend Ben Cooper:satanic stuff and then you think of this, like you're talking about the the power of music and what it can do, like you're saying about that are on stones. And when you think of raves where they were there, the warehouse and all that sort of stuff, and, and some of the stuff I've heard in the past and been involved in, I can actually, I can actually understand what he was talking about as well about your heart change in your heart rate. In quickening, and I can hear some of that stuff now going from my, to a degree of how it is very, very dark. It has this way of drawing you into like a, like a trance, and then with some other influence upon that, it really draws you to a dark place.
Chris Millin:Yeah, and yeah, it does is true, but of course on the other side, but on the other
Reverend Ben Cooper:side of that
Chris Millin:you've got you've got acts like you mentioned, Mary Mary, great. I mean, there you have a scriptural principles in in their lyrics without
Reverend Ben Cooper:Mary,
Chris Millin:you know. praise you for my circumstance. I'm gonna
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that one. Yes. Yeah.
Chris Millin:How's it go? Oh, god, I'm gonna pray. lift my hands. I can't go but but I remember that track broke, broke my heart in a good way when it became massive. And everybody was listening to it and it was on the radio everywhere. And there were people that I knew who were just definitely not believers. who was who were dancing to this? Oh, I love this this put down. That's right. Yeah, I love this star and lifting their hands and you're like,
Reverend Ben Cooper:oh, and a minute. And Scott. It's like really important that Chris, lifting your hands when you go apart is festivals wherever you are. It seems to be a natural instinct to lift your hands.
Chris Millin:Yeah, yeah. Well, you could take pictures for you could you could take. Sometimes I'm looking for pictures that depict worship. Sometimes. It's very hard to tell what is this? Is this in a worship context? horses at a festival? can't really tell? Yes. People would like, sometimes in euphoria, and it YesI Hands up, hands up waving about you can't really tell the difference, tell
Reverend Ben Cooper:the difference. But what is it that's in human beings to lift your hands when music? worship comes in? What is that? Well, we
Chris Millin:know we know when the Bible talks about Moses having his hands lifted up. Yeah, we know that at that time. The Israelites were, I think it was the melkite coming up against them. And my Moses when he kept his hands up, yeah, the enemies were were whining and being defeated. He was tired. And every time we put his hands down, the lights were getting the battery in. And so I think it was our it was Aaron. Two of them anyway, Aaron a comment the other one, but two of them got either side. And that help can help held his hands up. Wow. And the Amalekites were eventually completely defeated. So that gives you a clear example that gets lifted our hands up to God is quite powerful.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've never never thought of it until we're really talking about this here. But you're so right. I was that guy's names and lift kept the arms and the hands of Moses up. So that that tells you that there is spiritual warfare. There is something happens when a human being lifts their hands same again, you're evil worshiping God, or you're worshiping the darker side. That is, but you see it then yeah. And I can see the images that I can think of if I was quickly to wrap my brain when I think of Kwame, when some of the constants the places that they would just rock out with so many people. And the way Freddie Mercury would get the crowd moving. And there was this vibe, this atmosphere. So music is a vehicle for God. Awful satanic oppression.
Chris Millin:But also on that one before we move before we go move on. There's a there's a Hebrew word, it we've got one word for price. But in Hebrew, there's many words where we see price in our Bible. It could mean one of a number of different Hebrew words. Yeah. And one of those words is the word Yeah, door. Yeah, door door. And that means to fling out your hand. Yeah, as if you're throwing a stone or an arrow. If you if you take that into, if you're frying a stone or an arrow, you obviously you're obviously fighting against an enemy. So this word your door kind of depicts the fact that as you are lifting your hands up to God, yes. You are literally two feet in the enemy's plans.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've never looked at all This is before this is like fascinating me.
Chris Millin:So if we go back to Jehoshaphat? Yeah. It said the moment the Jehoshaphat. We put the praises out in front of the army. Yeah. The moment they began praising God, God set the enemies against each other. So there's a massive key, you're realizing Oh, God said x y Zed is going to happen. If you believe it, then it might happen. If you don't actually believe that, then maybe it won't happen. Yeah, but the price the energy in their prices, is powerful energy in our prices is powerful. I found that in personally in my life. Yeah. When I when I put energy into my price, and I really give him thanks and
Reverend Ben Cooper:expressing once you express yourself
Chris Millin:in what he said in my life, I see it starting to unfold.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's what Chris was just talking about. Then, as he was talking about that I've gone on found the scripture that he was talking about Moses. So it's Exodus chapter 17, verses 11 through 13. And I'm going to read in it says, anytime Moses is Moses held his hands in the air, the men of Israel would start winning the fight. But when Moses put his hands down, the men of Israel began to lose their fire. This is so powerful, first 12 of Exodus 17. After some time, Moses, his arm began. Tired. So they put a large rock under Moses for him to sit on his powerful stuff in it. Right? same verse, verse 12, goes on it says, then Aaron, and as you said, A held Moses his hands in the air. in the air, Aaron was on one side of Moses was on the other side. And it says they held his hands up, like until the sun went down. That is a serious amount of fun. But what I love in verse 13, it brings Joshua into this. So Joshua and his men defeated the advocates in this battle. There is power in lifting your arms up. So if you're if you're worshiping Mary Mary, Yeah, come on, Mary Mary. You know, I've never seen that text like that before. Never really just blinked it before just got over it. But there is so much power in lifting your arms in the air. But Aaron, Anna was looking thinking, we got kicked his arms up, get the onboard rock getting on the rock Quick, get the sofa chair out, get put on a rock, think about that. Put him on the rock on, we're just always hands on as long as the sun was there.
Chris Millin:So that that also, as you're saying that, you know this? It wasn't just Moses, it was it was holding his hands at it who was holding his own hands up. Aaron and I are where we're enabling him. Yes. Hold his hands up. He was I suppose that the kind of he he was at the authority. Yeah. And so I suppose there's a lot in that, you know, these guys were helping the man in authority to keep his hands. Yeah, I, you know, which, which, which kind of like puts the onus on us to recognize those that God's put in authority? Yes. You know, the importance to help not to bring them down, or their arms getting tired, huh? Yeah, go and put a rock on to them, help them to stand up, help them to get their hands up, because they're the man that God's put in authority today.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. And what's interesting in the world, is that he became tired. So he was holding his arms are an expression of worship. But in worship, you can become tired because you are a being a human being flesh, blood, muscle, everything. So it tells me as well, as he was saying what he was just saying that, that is really important that, that we help each other to worship, not each other, but to worship the God of Israel. So some of us might be tired, and as you so rightly said, help each other, let's all lift their hands together. And if I am tired, I help you lift your hand to worship. And it says they won their battle. I've got one about God, one, that gun, God won the battle for that. But in verse 13 of Exodus, chapter seven, he says, So Joshua, and his men defeated, defeated them in the battle. So what we have here is you can imagine this same gesture and all the fighting men will win all the time. The believers, let's look at the Moses was praising God. So that tells me that as I praise, it gives authority for others on the ground in the battlefield. So when. So praise is element and key to same battle one. Because all when Moses his hands dropped, the Israelites were getting their licking and kicking. As soon as he got his hands back up. There was winning. So there is power on the battlefield. So if you are in a battlefield, what's the thing I got to do live my arms and praise? If I'm in a battlefield with my brother or sister and they're getting tired in the battlefield, we help each other to raise our arms to praise. Hallelujah. I'll tell you what, there's texts that Chris has brought up. Exodus 17, for anyone that's listening. Exodus 17 chapter seven, verses 11 through 213, about the power, and I love the way it says when Moses put his hands down, the men of Israel began to lose their fire. The church can't drop its arms. The church has to lift its hands and praise. When the church has got his arms beside itself, you'll lose it. When you lift your hands and it exaltation and praise and singing hallelujah. Sometimes all I can do, but one, I mean, all I can do is lift my arms up and say, hallelujah, Jesus, I praise you in my circumstance. What's that song, Chris? approach in my circumstance that's married. Ma'am, in my
Chris Millin:circumstance,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know what, I lift my arms, I'm lifting my hands
Chris Millin:on Frasier.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Frasier. I'm gonna pray my hands and go for Mary Mary.
Chris Millin:But we enter the shackles up now. That's it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you think of Moses, this all boy, do you know that has been given a colon and a gift in in leadership, and when we think about his leadership, but he was tired, and they said, Let's get a rock, put the boy on the rock. That's interesting. The Rock who is the rock is the rock of my salvation. So we put a rock underneath him, we'll keep him steady, and we'll lift his arms up. So it's telling me a lot this is telling me a lot this stuff here is that when I'm tired, I've got to surround myself with brothers and sisters that will help me lift my arms and pray. Yeah, because lifting your arms in praise is a very powerful instruction. It's a very powerful, very visual. So it says very clearly in the scriptures all the time, Moses, his arms were in the air, just arms are up, Joshua was on the Israelites were able to move forward. So as the church sniffed their hands,
Chris Millin:yeah, we will move forward. And this is a great word of encouragement to the church today. It's like it says, you know, in the words that we read at the beginning, a preface to that was in your praises and Thanksgiving, says the Lord, I will show you mercy and rescue you. I hear you and I am breaking through and transforming your wailing into a whirling dance of ecstatic price. I've torn the bow from what you can see in the natural and shifting your eyes to the supernatural. I'm lifting off the heaviness off of you, as you price. And so this is a really encouraging word for us. Sorry. And to go back to Jehoshaphat. Briefly, yeah, his initial stance was when he gathered everybody to worship and to cry to when he gathered by too fast and pray was they cried out to God to God, Lord, we don't know what to do. Gosh, our eyes are on you. We don't know what to do. But how do we get our eyes on him? Yeah, price, price pricing? Well, we don't know what's around the corner, Lord. But we know that you're good. And we know that you work all things together for a good, no matter how dark you might seem. So we're going to praise you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's mind blowing, isn't it? When you think about this, when you bring all this stuff together, this Old Testament stuff together, David, about praise and, and dancing, just just a fat Moses, I've never seen that text like that, in all my time walking with God, until such a time as this, that there is something so powerful about what you're saying about looking at pictures, and I've got them in my mind at this moment of different venues of people just lifting their arms up, but you can't work out. You don't know the artists is but if you take that out of the equation, and go, where are they? Because there is something about lifting your arms, something in that. And that is just with
Chris Millin:our and we know that Satan, he became proud and he wanted them to worship Him. And being a minister of music. Yeah, you know, that's, that's the field that we work in. And as a musician, or DJ. I'm sure met musicians and DJs all around. You can hear this can vouch for the fact that people will, will throw their adoration on you on Yeah, yeah, yeah. They worship the musician. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And when you say those pictures, they could be worshiping God or they could be worshiping the band. Or they could be worshipping the DJ. Yeah. as is true. That's true.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. idolatrous worship monitor
Chris Millin:idolatry. Yeah, yeah. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:you think about Daniel, Kanye about that that as well. And you can
Chris Millin:that was mute to do with music that
Reverend Ben Cooper:was mute in
Chris Millin:the music place. Yeah, bow down and worship the statue.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, and Sham rap. Michelle Bendigo. When this certain time of the day, you won't be at play. You won't be able to do what you're normally doing, but you will worship and face to face towards this idol that the king has created. So worship is is two sides,
Chris Millin:God or the enemy. It's like Bob Dylan said, also serve somebody. It might be the devil. It may be the Lord but you gotta serve somebody.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Bob Dylan. So many things. When I say hidden, so many important messages, I hear them in music and they might be years down the line when we go here. This is a spiritual awakening. Mary Mary Bob Dylan, Marley, Bob Marley.
Chris Millin:Bob Marley is seen as the spliff man. Yes, but he's his music. We have a lot of reggae music is saturated with Scripture. He grew up in a Christian family. And a lot of people don't know this but two years before he died, he began. He was baptized as a Christian. Was he really? Yeah, he was. Yeah, he turned away from Rasta. It was all kept quiet because Rasta was a big movement. It's all to do with Yeah, you know, the culture that he was spreading in his music. But yeah, he's kind of a born again, Christian. And you can you can YouTube his testimony is powerful testament.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Wow. Chris has been absolutely fascinating as always, just to sit and chat and this little podcasting room with bells and whistles of phones going off on the iPad pinging with emails coming through. It's just raw. This is what it is just raw podcasting. Here are eating church. And Chris, we want to thank you so much for sharing everything that God has placed on your heart and it's been good to sit across the other side of the table, social distancing, as always bias. So we thank God for everything that's going on in the world of music and Chris, could you close in prayer?
Chris Millin:Heavenly Father, we just thank you for the opportunity to just explore this subject Father, we thank you for every listener who's tuned in today, Lord and we ask father that you would just move by your spirit and confirm your words, to to your to those who are who are following you are interested or listening out for your voice Father God, we pray this in your mighty name Jesus, that you would come and set the captives free Father God, movement of your people. Hallelujah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Hallelujah. Thank you, Chris. You've been listening to Chris Millin. And myself Reverend Ben Cooper here at Elim church in Swanley. Pleas share everything that we do o every platform and we thank yo so much for your time. You know stay safe, but more than that stay in the Word of God and sta under the blood of Jesus. Have great day. God bles