Hello and welcome to our podcast here at Elim Church in Swanley. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper, and our great friend Simon Pinchbeck. Good morning. Good afternoon. What is a time? five to one? s afternoon, isn't it?
Simon Pinchbeck:It's afternoon. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:isn't it
Simon Pinchbeck:you lose track that
Reverend Ben Cooper:he lose track. Well, thank you so much for coming over scraping by my friend, you
Simon Pinchbeck:know, ready to be with you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's good to have you in the home of Trove. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:And every time I come over, there's always something new and we've got a brand new pastors couch in the office
Reverend Ben Cooper:early and the pastor of this church, he's living living the dream.
Simon Pinchbeck:Theater in dreams.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's the House of Pain,
Simon Pinchbeck:the pain, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:strengthen us and guide us and be with us. But it's so good for your assignment. You know, and the beauty of these podcasts that we do, they're raw, they're stripped back. There's nothing fancy. There's no fantastic backdrops. There's no lights glitz and glamour. There's no editing going on between all these conversations is as it comes as it comes in. It's
Simon Pinchbeck:raw. And we don't get paid for this to happen to wait.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Well,
Simon Pinchbeck:I haven't been I haven't
Reverend Ben Cooper:caught up be nice
Simon Pinchbeck:when the order check is still in the post. We don't know. We know we don't get funding for this. So we just have to do it because we believe that the word of God is gonna be out there. And the Trump's gonna be out there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. All joking aside, we do it. Because it's it's calling where we're hungry for Jesus. And we just love just chatting and being really real and just just sharing the gospel and life experiences. And just talking about God and just just like the ministry that you're involved in real men for Christ, and that new ministry that's evolving, and I think I'll use that word evolving. No darwinistic in it.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, it's pretty
Reverend Ben Cooper:word in it. I
Simon Pinchbeck:don't want to use progression either. regression. So where did we go with that? But but that ministry is following Jesus, we can say that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's the right way. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's, it's, it's happening, but you don't want to. And here's the thing with that. It's a slow, slow, start, really, if you like, but but it's we're consistent. And we're getting there. The YouTube videos out there and they've been seen as far afield as Australia. We know there are friends in Texas over there. They run. They're watching what we're doing
Reverend Ben Cooper:in Texas.
Simon Pinchbeck:I've got a lot of friends.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Dallas.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. Joe got
Reverend Ben Cooper:long drives with trees and all that. I've
Simon Pinchbeck:been on a few ranches like that. Yeah, yeah, the cowboy hats and cowboy boots. Yeah. Especially around the Dallas Fort Worth area.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He got hot for America. I love that you love America. And I've been going out there
Simon Pinchbeck:for since the since the 90s. Early 90s. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:to tread into the old Disneyland areas, right?
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, no, that was when we first started going was a kid Orlando with a guest and you know, now, when we go on vacation, we go out to the other side of Florida, Sarasota around the area. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:Rubin's it really nice.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's beautiful. The beaches are phenomenal. Yeah, it's really top drawer. And if you pick the time of year to go, which is, you know, October, early October at the hurricane season, and the beaches are up sorry,
Reverend Ben Cooper:cane season.
Simon Pinchbeck:Big. Beautiful.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh my gosh.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's a different thing entirely. It's Yeah. And then last few years we've what I've been doing with ministry has led me to go to Texas, Oklahoma. Yeah. Which is a different gravy altogether. You know, Texas is Yeah, some might have the guns and everything I've just said before we've done not guns, big trucks or you're a vegetarian. Texas ain't the place for you. Really? Really, I said, but they are great, guys. I love the Lord and full on full on. Yeah, it's the book of the Bible Belt, Dallas. And yeah, so I've, you know, spent a lot of time out there and got some really, really good friends.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Praise God. And, you know, some we are privileged to have you with us today. You know what, when you spoke about Disneyland, there's quite a few Disneyland churches in the UK at the moment. And there's quite a few Mickey Mouse things going on. There's some strange of things going on in a world of church. And we're talking about trust.
Simon Pinchbeck:Want to talk about trust? Yeah. And it sort of ties into what we were talking to before, which was hope. Yeah, so trust is a is a big one and want to talk about been singing the right song on the wrong side. And what I mean by that is it's remember the Israelite nation. Yeah. came out of Egypt dinner, and it was they had a torrid time bringing them all out of Egypt. And Moses was leading them, they got to the shores of the Red Sea. And they looked behind, and they could see the dust clouds of the Egyptians for them, because Pharaoh added second, either the second was any second COVID
Reverend Ben Cooper:second way,
Simon Pinchbeck:second, what you ate for No, I
Reverend Ben Cooper:can't go, I can't go.
Simon Pinchbeck:So he's they looked and they said, and there Moses on his face, and they're all grumbling and saying, You brought us out here, to die to die. And the Lord said, Now I've bought you a tear, if I brought you It brought your ear to die brought you out here. And trust me, you know, and Exodus 1414 says, stand still. And the Lord will fight for you, as a great scripture and stand still, and the Lord will fight for you. So they're on the wrong side of the Red Sea. They want to be on the other side of the Red Sea, and they're grumbling, complaining, they're not trusting the Lord. Yes. And then the Lord goes, watch what I'm going to do and the parts the Red Sea, and they all walk through right side and then when the Egyptians come through, we know what happens at sea closes Yeah, all Egyptians get get killed and, and then they start singing. And then they start singing as they got the song or mat Maryam, they got this, tambourine, tambourines out there did cheering, praising the Lord. And it's very much like us in it, you know, in our walk really
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a mirror image is a mirror image of what it's like, there's always
Simon Pinchbeck:like, yeah, we were, we're following the law. But, you know, it's easy to believe in almost as easy. But when you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you know, you're saved, you know that your salvation is assured. So that's bit is parked, estan, that's down. But it's all the other bit leading up to that, you know, you can't learn to trust in that really
Reverend Ben Cooper:difficult to do, as you think of Miriam, and they got through to the other side on the promised land, they was all smiles, clappy and happy because they'd received an ED sin. That great miracle that that phenomenal miracle that God had done, parted the sea and got them into that place. But leading up to that place. They wanted to go back,
Simon Pinchbeck:they wanted to go back, I want to go
Reverend Ben Cooper:back then a second way of a fairer second COVID come in. And we want to go back to the old ways, and the church is trying to open and go back to the old stuff, is trying to go back to the old stuff. And as as they clearly said, Why have you brought us here? To die, it's not a place to die is a place of strengthening you on a journey. And you always will hear the wills of Pharaoh chasing you down. Well, they're always there will always be the dust or the enemy behind you. What you remember is the enemies behind you. He's behind. He's behind you.
Simon Pinchbeck:He's been defeated.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He's been defeated. He might all look show wills glitz and glamour. There might be smoke screens, there might it might look as you looked, and there you can, if you can just put yourself into that position that come out and those in the 5050 position. Why have you brought us out crying out, you know, and they they march on them, and suddenly, they turn back and they see this? This great armor coming awards and shine and the best chariot? Yeah. And if that's what the enemy had, he didn't win. He didn't. That's his best. That's his best, he ain't gonna get no better than that Pharaoh took and went out with the best that he had. And they still was defeated.
Simon Pinchbeck:And they still were defeated. And that's so is the thing that's like us so yeah, we're going along in life. Suddenly, we've got a major hurdle. Enormous hurdle and where we're going to stand with that. Are we going to trust God? Are we gonna fall back and cycle where are you you know this fall into unbelief? Really? Yeah. on that and fear and doubt and we're gonna crazily fall into that or we're gonna stop praising God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think it's easy to fall back because we live our lives by sight. Now don't get me wrong there are many believers out there listening and people watching and listening to this at this moment that are really fight for spirit filled, you know, really gaining complete faith but there's also a certain percentage where we're when we see the enemy fear creeps in. When fear creeps in. So when you look at the pharaohs, when you look at the pharaohs, they're the leaders of the nation. Whatever nation you're in, wherever you are, the pharaohs are lording it over you, and you've got serious decisions to make. Do we go back and bake bricks for another few hundred years? Or do we just keep walking? What do we do? We're in the desert. We're in dry ground. It's hot. We're tired. We're exhausted. We've been working under this narcissistic Pharaoh control. For so long,
Simon Pinchbeck:it says back like, yeah, like life is. We've said it before life. Life is all about inches moving forward. So moving forward is how far we're moving. Now moving forward, Sophia witkoppie, praising God in these times, we've got a bit of lifting him up praises it because there's one thing that the enemy hates, is praise, praising God in times of adversity. You know, the Bible says that the devil walks around like a roaring lion, but resist him and he will flee. And if you look at that lion, he looks so frightening and fearful,
Reverend Ben Cooper:same again, visual, visual, visual, you know, visual perception what I see what I hear, you know, and the Bible makes it so clear that the just shall live by faith. I've got to learn to live by faith. And this is a time of trust as you've got there in front of me we're talking about trust is really important that I trust God, I walk with him, I rest with him. And the Bible says do not lean on your own under standing but in all your ways acknowledge Him as probably
Simon Pinchbeck:one of the most used verses in the Bible for trust and probably three, six Yeah, which is a was an all your your ways lean on him. Lean on him. And what what you said there Ben is so vital walk with him, you say? And the thing is, how do we get trust from someone? How do me and you trust each other? We get trust from a relationship. Don't wait.
Reverend Ben Cooper:conversation. relationship building. Yeah. speaking, reading, so we get to you got the sword. Okay, well, you got the word, we get
Simon Pinchbeck:to know each other. So doesn't matter what anyone says about you ever. They said, Oh, this guy is a great guy. I have to get to know you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Simon Pinchbeck:You got to get off to walk with you. I have to, I have to learn to trust trust you from a relationship with here, don't I? Yeah. And it's the same with Jesus. So you know, if you come become a fresh Christian, you know, you've got to learn to walk with Jesus got to get to know him. And that's what he wants. He wants you to get to know Him so that you will trust him. And so in times of trouble, you know, to turn to him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, I think that's really important to understand that what fruit is COVID-19 and all that there is a new church emerging. There is a new body coming together. There is like an early church there is we've broken away from the traditional church and the robotic ness in the program and the church. So many of us have been tarred with the religious brush, many of us have been tarred with the churchy brush. So what we have, and I'm seeing it for what what's going on around that. There are believers that have given their life to Christ through this pandemic, that have not been tarred with the religious brush. So they don't know church, because I've never been to church, and as an experience, so they're gone by complete faith gone by the word of God. So what we need to be careful of is where church the church culture has has got us into this position of the world of church is that you can quite easily not lose your faith. And I don't mean that, but you trust in the worldly church, you're putting your trust in a system, and you're trusting in Sunday morning, I'll press the buttons and God's gonna come out of the box. And we've got this and we know that and
Simon Pinchbeck:because this interaction become an instructional model.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Perception is why you see
Simon Pinchbeck:people go to church, and that's where they build the trust for a few hours a week or a few hours a week.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And when you're sitting in the church, you're not actually concentrating, and actually focusing on Jesus because our lives are so busy, and so packed with thinking right after church, I gotta quickly buzz over there after church. I got to get the kids picked up after church, I got to get the dinner cooked. Here's a friend, Bobby coming around, you know, the concentration span is very short,
Simon Pinchbeck:when I heard a story and a lady went to the pastor and said, Pastor on a Sunday are not sure whether I should come to church anymore. We said Oh, was that he said, she said, Well, I see this guy on his phone. I see this people talking, I see this person goes in our VA, I see this person not concentrating. And the pastor said, Oh, do me a favor. is a glass of water fall to the top where you just walk around the room keeping making sure you don't spill that water. And she said, Yeah, so she walks around the room with that glass of water doesn't spill it. And she said that there I've done that. She said she didn't spill it did you because you're concentrating on what you need to do. If you go to church and start looking around Yeah, and seeing that happening that you you can't concentrate. So what but but sadly that that people do go to church and people do look around. You know, I was in the church once, which met in a, in a theater. And outside a theater, there's a screen that they could project what was going on? So what they thought they do. Oh, yeah, let's project the
Reverend Ben Cooper:service
Simon Pinchbeck:service on a screen. So that people a great idea. Yeah. Pastor couldn't use the footage, because he said, when I looked at it, he said there was people sitting back on our phones, people are asleep or not. He said, so he's looking at a watch. So people actually go to church giving church lip service. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:really engaging spiritually.
Simon Pinchbeck:So where's the relationship coming? It's not there's no relationship there. And so trust comes from
Reverend Ben Cooper:that journey, a walk the relationship phase. Yeah. And sometimes it takes a crisis, a real serious crisis, to shake us to actually go god, I'm sorry, repentance, and actually coming to him and saying, I'm going to trust you more, I'm going to walk with you more, because it's easy to sing and to praise him when when all is shining. But when trouble when it comes to the fan, and it's dark, and it's bleak, and it's black. You can easily I don't mean lose your way, but you can almost now there's an interesting part in the New Testament where Christ put the disciples to sow and he said, I'm going up to there to pray. He says immediately, he put them ahead of him. And they set sound and the wind and the waves. And it says that there was considerable distance away from land. So Christ is on the land, he's praying. And we know it's a famous text where Peter, and they look, and they see Christ and they say, is it a ghost? Yeah, they was all the time. It was daylight all the time that was on land, and they was feeding the 5000. And they was journey within water to wine. They recognize Jesus. Yeah. But as soon as darkness falls, and they are considerable distance from him, so they knew that they left him on the land. So they was out in the eye of the storm. They was in the thick of it. Darkness had fallen, it was dawn breaking, suddenly they cry out, the scripture says, Is it a ghost? Now, I do believe that that is very relevant for a lot of Christians when the storms come. We recognize Christ on the shoreline of Galilee, the sun's out, the fishes cooking, we're praising Jesus. Yeah, I recognize Jesus, it's daylight. But when the storm comes, what does he actually say to them? Where's your face? Don't be afraid.
Simon Pinchbeck:And these are people that follow Jesus. Yes. See, and they were called, they were called, and they've seen everything he'd done,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and witness miracles.
Simon Pinchbeck:So we're talking exactly what I'm saying singing the right song. on the wrong side. It's so easy to praise the Lord and and things going great. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:what were what about when darkness when darkness falls? The waves come? Peter said, if it's you call me.
Simon Pinchbeck:So where are your anchors? Where's your anchor? Is it if it's not in Jesus Christ? Yeah. Then you will be worried if you haven't got that built that strong relationship with Jesus. Yeah. And then onto the Father.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Simon Pinchbeck:Then you are going to be worried you are going to be and, and even if you have got that real strong relationship, there might be a little bit of fear creeping initially. Yeah, you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Human, you're gonna recognize that because that's very clear in the scriptures. It happened to the disciples, they'd been on the shoreline, they'd spent time with him that day. But it says immediately, Christ set them to sell. And there was a considerable distance out at sea. The waves came, the rain fell, it was dark it was their boat was buffeted and they could not recognize Jesus in the storm. What is one of the most common phrases used in the Bible for and above Old
Simon Pinchbeck:and New Testament? Let me know, please do not fear. Do not fear, do not fear. We do these things. And we call them bold encounters. Okay? They're the day things we do when men go a little bit deeper. And believe me, the Holy Spirit will go deep, if you allowing to. And remember, the last one I did for knockdown was it was in Kent Maidstone, which is quite a nice place. And yeah, yeah. And one of the fellows there said, he, he said, I don't know I find it hard to trust God. I find it hard to put my faith in God bah, bah, bah. And then he had to write a letter. We got to write a letter to from God to him. And the letter just said, trust me trust. Like, trust me, and he still didn't get it, I still, you know, we still have to move it forward. And, and just recently, really just yesterday, I had a good friend, one size nine, but I had a good friend who I first got to know in about four or five years ago and we've been in constant communication since in a good manner. manner got yesterday for the first time he opened up with something about his own father to me and the guy was in tears. Because it was painful. Yeah, thing to come out with. Ain't gonna say that to me, unless you trust me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now, that is what we're talking about building a relationship
Simon Pinchbeck:building a relationship,
Reverend Ben Cooper:time, time, time. You know,
Simon Pinchbeck:it's a relationship which, which is born out of obedience, but it's obedience in love then, so it's not like, you know, I'm telling my teenage son, you've got to stay in, you're not going out? And he says, Yeah, right. But he's, he's doing it for gritted teeth. He's doing it, you know, yeah. It's a obedience because we, we love Jesus. And we know what he's got for us. And when he asked us to do something, see, if you haven't got that relationship, you want him to, you want to understand his voice. And so because you've got so many other voices going on in your head, that's the problem. These days, you know, you're watching this TV.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You want to disturb and disturb
Simon Pinchbeck:a lot. If you've got that relationship, that strong relationship with Jesus Christ, then you will hear his voice, you will hear his voice. Because, you know, the sheep in my voice, the sheep know, my voice
Reverend Ben Cooper:is shaped now my voice.
Simon Pinchbeck:And why because, oh, sheep will never take their eyes after after Master, that there'll be constantly their eyes, on the shepherd. So we need to be constantly in communication. And we know it's not easy. We know it's difficult.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not it's
Simon Pinchbeck:days, when you when you when you might go for a day without talking to Jesus, it's it's one of those things. But if we get more into the habit of speaking to him, then you'll you'll know clearly, his voice and when he asked you to do something, and when you when you ask him, Lord, is this what you want me to do? And you get a clearly yes or no. And you know, it's from him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's obedience is obedience. It's about having a relationship in the Word of God. So that's,
Simon Pinchbeck:that's what you what you just said there is knowing the Word of God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's, it's knowing the word, it's no no word, I can come to church, I can be an order. Prayer means I can go to this service, that service, I can go to this preacher, that preacher, listen to that evangelist, I can watch YouTube all day long, social media, but I will not get that I will not get what I really need until I come home and humble myself before the Lord. And I just pick up that word, pick up that word and get in that word, and start seeing what God has to say. Because we thank God for the social media platforms, everything we do that goes out all around the world. But it's more than that. It's like what we do is just a bit of a bite. But God wants us to go to him for everything.
Simon Pinchbeck:He wants us to go to him for everything.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Everything. Yeah, it's so quick to fire up the laptop, the iPad and to get on the phone and to find an answer and to Google, all this sort of stuff. But he's the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through him. So it's really important that I get in the Word of God, that I trust in the Word of God. You think about the great Old Testament Joshua. What what what did God say there? meditate on the word there night do not do not?
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, you know what Matthew 2435 says, He says, heaven on earth will pass away. But my words never pass away. You know
Reverend Ben Cooper:his word. Yes. And Amen. And you know, the scripture makes it very clear, then it and Johnny is so so clear. He said and the Word became flesh. Yeah. And made his dwelling among us. He's, he's here to dwell and to walk and to live with us to be with us. So I have a responsibility die.
Simon Pinchbeck:big responsibility for the Word of God. But at work, we're watchmen man. Yeah, we are watchmen for such a time as this for such a time as
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is so critical. We need
Simon Pinchbeck:to get the word out. I'll just read it in his Ico the other day of things. Zico, it says that, if you're a watchman, and you see the enemy coming, and you blow the horn, and you warn everybody, then yeah, if they don't obey you, then the blood is on them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that that's, that's really critical. And that's, that is so, so important to understand is that, that we encourage and we won't and we share, but we can Han take on that responsibility for someone else of their own mortality, or you can't do that you can't do this down to them, we try to guide them, we try to encourage them. And also that comes to a point where we got to know where we, where we cut off, and leave that person. That's where we've been really brutal. But when you think of David, David Stratford himself in the Lord, coin, when you can encourage one another, and you're there for one another, and the scripture says, Don't forsake the the being together the fellowship of one another, but I have a responsibility where, where I'm grateful for your time for what you impart to me and vice versa and all that but but above all that my prime and and goal is to follow Christ and hear what he has to say.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, totally. I mean, I'll put it to you like this man, you've got a lovely daughter, Molly, have an ever Yeah, you know. But if you if your daughter was going for godly advice to someone else, then you wouldn't be too happy about that, because I
Reverend Ben Cooper:am a bit gritty when it Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:you want to get to you is Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:of course,
Simon Pinchbeck:as the Father, so were sons. And the Bible tells us we are sons and daughters. That's right. If we're going to man, somewhere else somewhere else. And the father's gonna be a little bit upset with his heart, Father's heart, you have to go to the Father through Jesus Christ through Jesus Christ. And that's what he wants. So when you say he wants us to come to him for everything, that everything, that's what he wants us to do, the Father,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the father of Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. You know, it's really important that that for this pandemic and this second wave and everything that's going on that that the church is locked down but the Spirit God can never be locked down. The kingdom is not locked down. You know, the buildings are locked but the Word of God is sharper than a double edged sword. It is God It stands for is open for business. Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:no without a shadow.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There's no close sign up on on the kingdom. 24 hours a day, seven days a week before time. He created time he space time and matter. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He is there for us.
Simon Pinchbeck:And if you're going through times, yeah, of trouble sometimes. It comes with a territory, though.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It comes with the territory.
Simon Pinchbeck:It comes with the territory. The trouble comes if you're stepping out if you're on a frontline ministry, you're stepping out for your if you're trying to advance the kingdom, if you're listening to Jesus, if you're learning Yeah, and trouble comes with a territory
Reverend Ben Cooper:you are going to attract. You're going to attract like a radar.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, if you're sitting in your comfy, lazy boy chair and not doing a lot, then the devil can
Reverend Ben Cooper:travel he Yeah, when someone wakes up in the morning that goes Good morning, Jesus. This is the day that the Lord has made. Who am I going to talk to today? Yeah, Christ. Come on, Lord, I got to trust you. Lord, I got trouble Lord everywhere, but for my god and my king, all things are possible to those who believe once you leave the church he won't behind. And once you leave the humdrum of church and you start to operate in the spirit world, and you start to walk with Christ, you are like a radar. You're going to get on your spiritual warfare,
Simon Pinchbeck:you become a dangerous Christian and a Christian. Yeah. And the Christian life then becomes an exciting Christian life. Yeah, it becomes exciting because, you know, don't you want to tell someone about the Christ? Is
Reverend Ben Cooper:he becoming angry? The more you get in the word, the more hungry become more than ever in the world. You can never get enough you can know what happens is as your eyes as your eyes are open by the word and by Christ, what you find is you start to see the world very differently. And that can bring trouble to your door just for what you see. Because suddenly because you are starting to live, to live by faith, and you are going by a complete word by scripture. God seems to open your eyes to what is really happening. Yeah. And then you can get troubled from what you see. So it is like a double edged sword. You've got to you've got to be in the word, but the more you get in the word, the more you get closer with him, the more you realize how fallen we are.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yes, totally. And because of that comes back to trust. It comes back to trust and and also you know, we spoke a little bit about it before the pre meeting. trouble sometimes comes to to not make us too comfortable. If we If we if we think we're comfortable in this place Then the Lord may we turn up a little bit you know, because we are only passing through this place a journey where we have got another address, which is I don't know 2000 glory Avenue or whatever it's this is not our home this is not home
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know so this stock so don't
Simon Pinchbeck:ever seek and search for comfort. Seek for peace
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah see the thing is for peace it was saying there is where is your treasure?
Simon Pinchbeck:Where's your treasure?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, where is your treasure? Because if my treasure is materialism if my if my treasure is what the world is offering, I won't find that peace you'll never find the trust in in the systems of the world if I'm trusting in just general life if I'm just living this life just just naturally the system will foul me man if I put in everything my treasure where Where's your treasure? where your treasure is? where you will find your your haha is the word my treasure? Or is it material? Is it wealth? Is it is it money? Is it material thing? What am I trust in it?
Simon Pinchbeck:Show me where you put your your energy, your time your money? And I'll show you what your worship? Oh,
Reverend Ben Cooper:come on. Look.
Simon Pinchbeck:So you've got to be very careful, we have to be very careful,
Reverend Ben Cooper:fine line,
Simon Pinchbeck:do you know and this place? Believe me that is a hostile place is getting battlefields battlefield? You know? So unless you're absolutely add, you prepare for about we need to do a bit of training and the training is for relationship with Jesus Christ, knowing the word getting a couple of good people around you that should that's the training.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. You know, he talked about training in the battlefield. I think that's where the church has been called on the backhoe fear. Because it hasn't equipped and taught us and showed us how to live in a rural crisis. It has been very fluffy. So what you find yourself is that we've been a church for years and years and years and years, I go to church because Mom, don't go to church, or go to church, because it's the church, I go to church because it looks good, it sounds good. But when the church shots, it's all closed, and you can't get access to that comfort zone. What you fought where God, you know, I really believe God has exited the church A long time ago. And that's a subject for a different subject altogether. But what I'm trying to say is you spoke about the battlefield. Yeah. So there are many people Christians on the battlefield of life, with the bullets firing over their head, with COVID all around and don't quite know what is going on. Because the training hasn't been in the world. There's been no training, there's been no trainer, scriptural training, as you would need to stand up and put your head above the parapet and go into the promised land.
Simon Pinchbeck:And believe me, these these guys that these pastors are not training their church for this, you know, they'll be accountable at some stage in the Lord's. I believe the Lord's fed up. He said, Where's my army? He's looking around and he's seen a load of people dressed nice following a different Jesus
Reverend Ben Cooper:following that that's that's the thing.
Simon Pinchbeck:This is not my gospel,
Reverend Ben Cooper:a false gospel gospel is peddling money. Of course with false promises false promises with with no hope. It sounds like there's hope go back a year. And you look what the church was beating the drum about. And you look at you only got to look across the airwaves and look at the tele evangelists and all that and, and, or, and people get attracted to what they see,
Simon Pinchbeck:of course, and you know what? They're coming in on a wave of social justice, you know, all that sort of stuff. But they're not seeking first the kingdom.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's the key in the battlefield of life. Seek ye first the kingdom
Simon Pinchbeck:and everything else will fall into place business. Everything else will fall into place, you know, fruit Jesus Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And what we've got to remember as well as the battle belongs to the Lord. The battle
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, one so yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I really haven't got a fight. I haven't got to start putting on the gloves, and start really getting into skirmishes. What I've got to do is understand that the battle belongs to him. I am responsible for following him and being obedient to Him and trusting in Him. Because the battle is his.
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, my as Kotaku I do, the real man of Christ with puts it like this, he said. He says, We are just chauffeurs for the Holy
Reverend Ben Cooper:Spirit. Yes,
Simon Pinchbeck:arrive up to a situation. Now what do you do? Do you get out of the car and you start dealing with yourself or do you step out a car open a door for two hours for it and let him deal with it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is my job.
Simon Pinchbeck:That Holy Spirit did with it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's about trust. Yeah handing over and you know, surrender. We might be in in Psalm 23. Even I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, you know, III, because you're running a staff company, you're with me your wisdom, You prepare a table in the presence of my enemies.
Simon Pinchbeck:So it is a situation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's a done, deal with it. You deal with it. But it's so easy to say that and it Father, you deal with that? Yeah. But then we get into the area. Now I have complete faith, I am trusting God, that God is going to supply he is going to make a way where there is this just great big Jericho before me. Now, when you look at what they had to do with that deal with now God said, Look, Jericho is already tightly barred, because of you guys, is already been given. I just want you to do A, B, C and D. If I follow these areas that Christ has laid out the word if I follow these instructions, I will see this Jericho fall.
Simon Pinchbeck:Why did he tell him not to speak?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Interesting that
Simon Pinchbeck:isn't it? Why did he tell him not to spear? He told him not to speak? Because that they were they'll be walking around going,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's me?
Simon Pinchbeck:Or they'll be walking around going? This angle happen? What's this all about? Yeah, so there'll be fear and unbelief. Science. So he told him doing science Listen, probably it was Psalm 27. And it's a lovely one is this. He said, some trust in chariots, some trusting horses, but we will remember the name of our Lord, the Lord our God, yeah, trust in the Lord our God. So we drive up to the situation, we let the Holy Spirit out and say, Lord, what do you want me to do?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What is the answer? Show me the way show me the way. You know, the The just shall live by faith, closing your eyes to what you see. And saying, Jesus, I just trust you in this situation. I trust you in my journey. I, I trust you because on some
Simon Pinchbeck:level, it might,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it will. It will look most things in life in business and copro in relationships and marriage, if you're single, if you're married, if you're going through divorce, if you've got all the things you will go, how am I gonna get froze, because the
Simon Pinchbeck:enemy will make it look so
Reverend Ben Cooper:you're just he will just keep saying,
Simon Pinchbeck:but here's the Where's your God? Here's the deal. any situation but yeah, you on your own are in trouble. But you and God, you're in the majority.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. It says why it's so it is why. But learning to trust but
Simon Pinchbeck:learning to trust comes through a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is you. That's the key thing is is the relationship with Jesus Christ. We're not talking about religion, we're talking about relationship.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And, and that doesn't start on a Sunday morning does it? No starts now. They start in the office that starts on the scaffold that starts in the transit van. That starts on the commute that starts now wherever wherever was, yeah, we don't go. tomorrow. I'll be at church. I'll start tomorrow. It's an everyday thing. It's it's a it's a walk. It's a journey.
Simon Pinchbeck:I was driving once. You know, they have these controversial systems on the motorway sometimes where? Where they put the other lane driving? Yeah, and your name, sir. Yeah. And there was a set comes right in the middle, and his truck came by and he's clipped a cone this this truck, right. And I'm seeing this coding errors in slow motion,
Reverend Ben Cooper:but he does. So
Simon Pinchbeck:this code is coming straight from our windscreen. Right? Of course our Lord, Lord help me. And like it was like a gusher when just took that cone, put it down to the side and I was able to drive on price car that's where we that's, you know, I don't say I do that in all situations. Because we're only human but that's where we've got to get to is where we see fair we see danger and we call out so Lord, Lord help me but we still carry through gone through it. And the Lord will come in like the pianist, Lord or come in to us.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah. It's like It's like going to the door of a supermarket and go into the exit door and it won't open it won't open. Why is it not happening? And you're banging around everything you try and do it why won't open but the law says just move around a corner. There's the entrance door
Reverend Ben Cooper:just just that
Simon Pinchbeck:you carry on walking. Yeah, the doors are open. You carry all around me and we got that's what it's like walking. It's exciting walking with you having a relationship with us. Growth is so exciting, because you just don't know who you're going to meet, you just don't know you want to who's going to put in your path and you just don't know where the next adventure is a challenge.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But the thing is, we don't know. But we try to make ourselves to know, because we're always planning. We're always getting a roadmap ready. We're always charting our lives, we're always doing this, this, this and this. We block our days, our weeks, our lives out.
Simon Pinchbeck:That's why there's so much interest these days in the prophetic from the Christian world, because they're looking for a shortcut,
Reverend Ben Cooper:a shortcut, they are
Simon Pinchbeck:looking for a tarot card as something that's going to tell them about the future.
Reverend Ben Cooper:When actually, you know, yeah, we plan too much. We plan I'm going to do this, and I'll do that and God will show up. I'll go on the streets got to go do this. I got to do that. But actually, as he said to the Prophet that was in the cave. What are you doing here?
Simon Pinchbeck:What are you doing?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What are you what are you doing here? But Lord, come on. You're supposed to be over there. And you know what? He took the profit what way he took him back the way he come. There are many of us me myself lots of people that have journeyed and gone and pressed the god bands, the hole in the wall. Jesus. Nothing's come out of nowhere. I don't want you over.
Simon Pinchbeck:I don't want you over there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, but Lord, I'm here. But I don't want you there. No, but Lord, I'm here. But um,
Simon Pinchbeck:this is where I've, I know, I think I should be.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I should be though I should be behind this pulpit, I should be in this situation, I should be in this job. But I don't want you there. Now that's asking the question, what is the will of the Father for me? Yeah. Because his will, will be the opposite direction to my flesh. Because what I see and how I live my life, by perception and by feelings, and by life is completely the opposite by faith. The just shall live by faith or by faith. I know that my Redeemer lives, and I know the steps of a good person I will do by the Lord. But I don't know what is going to happen this afternoon. But if I keep filling the diary up with stuff, I'm not giving room for the Holy Spirit to move and go you're in the wrong case. So
Simon Pinchbeck:where's the answer to this? is quite simply keep your eyes focused on Jesus Christ
Reverend Ben Cooper:the author, the perfecter
Simon Pinchbeck:of our Don't worry what they're doing over there and their ministry. Don't worry. What are you doing over here? Yeah, in his church, don't worry about him. Just worry about Jesus and following Jesus Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now that can sound almost selfish in the world, but it's not because when I get me right, that changes everything
Simon Pinchbeck:then the most important thing Yeah, in in any born against rightful believers life is their relationship with Jesus Christ. That's the most important thing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's It's better than any works because your worksite filthy rags and and you know, you look at the Bible says, I never knew you. But I did this for you. I did that for you alone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I was busy. I never knew that using the wrong cave.
Simon Pinchbeck:You didn't come to know my son Jesus. And if you didn't come to know my son, Zack, and you know me, the father says,
Reverend Ben Cooper:makes you really think that
Simon Pinchbeck:you have to we have to sew into that relationship. It's so important with Jesus Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What I've been trusting in all my life. You read that scripture out? chariots, horses, all that song in the world? What my trust in in Yeah. Am I trusting in the world? Or my trusting in the King of glory? Trust.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. And that's, and so that's, that's huge, you know, because you've got to remember as a St. And as you said, a few moments ago, we're only passing through this world. This world is hostile to us. We're only pilgrims in this world prays with the Lord blesses us and that's, that's amazing. But if we're following Jesus Christ, so you know, you can imagine Konya, you know, getting them going to France for for a job interview, and I saying Where do you live? Well, my temporary residency is Swanley cherry Avenue Swami or whatever. But my permanent residence is in 2000 glory Avenue up there and waiting for the name to come Lamb's book of life. Yeah, yeah, you can imagine. Look, just get on the white jacket straight jacket for this fella, you know, but there's a truth that is the truth is the truth. So to guide us through this world We can't do it on our own. You can't, you can't, you'll never defeat the notion of flesh, you got to win the World or anything like that. So so. So, to guide us through this, we've got Jesus Christ, and we must keep our eyes on him. You know, either, I think I might have said it before in a previous podcast, but either, like a little picture come to me, where there's the kingdom of God, Gods sit in the fog of the Father sitting on the front, but around him as thousands and thousands of people and I know what I'm genuine about wanting to, to get to to the throne, and I'm trying all I can in my own stream to get there. But you know, the crowds just too, too big to fake. And then Jesus appears, and the crowd just parts and I just followed Jesus straight to the front room. That's the same for every born again, believer, following Jesus to the front room. Yes, exactly. So that relationship with Jesus Christ gives us access to the front room of the God the Father,
Reverend Ben Cooper:praise God.
Simon Pinchbeck:And, and we've all got access, and the father's arms are open there for us. And the love of the Father is like something you? Well, it's just undescribed, but can't
Reverend Ben Cooper:describe it. Describe it. It's like the prodigal son story. Totally, the father was just looking out looking out. Waiting, he knew the son would return. You know, and that that that is so important for each and every one of us. The father is always looking out, he's looking out, looking out is looking out for a return of his son,
Simon Pinchbeck:she accepting Jesus Christ is only is an amazing thing. But it's only part certainly a part of the story. The full treasure, as you said, is finding the father and unpackaging and sinking into the father,
Reverend Ben Cooper:resting in Christ.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. And then the father going, right. Off you go follow my son, Jesus. Follow him and he leads you where I need you to go. And you keep looking back to the 505 was always there. But he's, you always end up saying follow Jesus. It's not rocket science.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not is it?
Simon Pinchbeck:It's not rocket science. We die to self we put self away but
Reverend Ben Cooper:the world church makes it very complicated. You got to jump through hoops you got to perform. When Jesus says just,
Simon Pinchbeck:just just believe. Yes. Believe. Just follow me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Just follow me is that simple. Just follow Jesus. Forget all the troubles and the woes and the humdrum. But just get yourself in that posture, that position of just follow me. I'm going to follow Him, I'm going to trust him. I'm not going to allow outside influences control itself. So I'm going to, I'm going to rest in the King of glory,
Simon Pinchbeck:but don't need this course or that course don't need to. To be in church to do that. Don't need to be in this ministry. I do that. Please place now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You can join us. If you pass this course will let you in. Yeah, so many places where you have to go on a course to be accepted.
Simon Pinchbeck:The pastor I can't speak in tongues.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, how much you're going to talk? When you work past London 10% raise a lot. giftaid for tonight? Well, I mean, there are churches around where you have to almost jump through hoops to get in.
Simon Pinchbeck:I've heard a one a big, big church, barbell somewhere where you start where allegedly you start off, you know, greet and meet and greet and if you want to get into the church, but if you've if you've got a few quid you know, put your struggle on Citrix too late to look after a home group or something, you know, so yeah, be very careful.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Be very careful. Yeah. You know, it's, we're living in really dark, but dark but powerful times. The light of God is shining.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's shining shining. Dyson is the niche chauffeur, he's
Reverend Ben Cooper:awful. So he's powerful. There's a calling there's a window. I call it a window of opportunity. Now this COVID has opened the door I do believe to people coming to Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:So here's the thing, you know, I don't know where you are out there. Listen to this. Yeah, you are where you're five where you are with Jesus. But if you can imagine this, that you've got Jesus Christ sitting next to you. And he's got his arms open and he says, Come to me. Come to me. Give me all your burdens. I will give you a rest fall into my arms. I will help you I will walk with you. I will just turn away from all your stuff. What are you going to say? Are you going to Say Yes, Jesus, our beliefs come into my life. I make your model or the idea or you're gonna go, not a day Jesus, I'm gonna cut this for myself. I'm gonna do this by myself. I don't need you right now maybe a little bit further down the line maybe but
Reverend Ben Cooper:at the moment, the moment money's flowing,
Simon Pinchbeck:what are you going to say? Yeah, what are you gonna say?
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've got to follow Jesus. I don't know about anyone else list in this moment in time. But now is a time when I am just speaking like I've never spoken to Christ. You are Yeah, guide me, Lord, help me, Jesus, Lord.
Simon Pinchbeck:We're pressing in,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I need to correct I need to correct things within me. And I need to lay it out on the table. And when I say I need to correct I can't correct but but what I can do is lay out on the ballroom table of heaven. And say, Jesus, a, b, c. d have made mistakes, please. And they'll go, come to me, all of you that are wearing heavy laden, I will give you a rest.
Simon Pinchbeck:Search every single corner.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Search me
Simon Pinchbeck:save every single dark and dirty, filthy coenraad life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's yours is yours.
Simon Pinchbeck:Not my will. But your will be done.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now there's a there's a there's a line. Not my will, your will. But your will be done. Simon, we thank you so much time as skipped on, as it always does so much. And we thank you for sharing a common across from the sunny side of the tunnel. And we just pray that God will bless you in your ministry, real man for Christ and what's going on? We thank you so much. Would you just bring us to a closing prayer? As we say,
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah, Lord, we just, again, just that picture of Jesus just with his arms open and asking people to, you know, just being there and saying, it's your choice. It's your choice, wherever you are, whatever. Whatever troubles you go, and trust me, trust me, I will give you rest fall into my arms. I will give you rest give yours. give your life to me. Make me your Lord and Savior. And I will give you rest. And if that's you a day then then just say, Lord, I accept you. Now I turn away from stuff I hand over all this stuff I wrap, all this rubbish, I'm going in a black bin liner, I put it at the put to your cross, except you Jesus as my Lord and Savior and I fall into your arms to be with me now forever and I'll follow you Jesus to the Father. Lord, I'll do that. If that's you say that prayer and just fall into the arms of Jesus day. In Jesus name, amen.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amen. Solomon once again, thank you so much. Thank you for everyone listening today on this podcast. May God bless you and strengthen you and everything you say and you do this is Elim church Sim n Pinchbeck, a real men for Chri t and myself Reverend Benjam n Leonard Cooper, one of wh t a way to finish. Benj min Leonard Cooper else watch. P aise God space and stay under he blood of Jesus amen. Jesus ame Amen.