Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:01

Hello and welcome to our podcast here at Elim Church in Swanley in y ur journey myself, Reverend en Cooper, and Simon Pinchbeck as we gather around the mics, nd as we are talking about our L rd and our Savior, Lord Je us Christ. Good morning, Sim

Simon Pinchbeck: 0:14

How you doing? Yeah, it's great to be an army truth rule, fight your fight, roll.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:21

It's so good. Thank you so much for coming over and sharing what you have for us and what God places on your heart and we are really blessed. I know we have a laugh and a bit of banter. But you know what we we love Jesus. We are, yeah, we are pressing into Christ, what a powerful time we live in it. And we do appreciate you and we pray all as well as home. Your wife is, well, your boys are well, and that little puppy of yours is growing. growing strong. Yeah. Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck: 0:49

no, Ben, I love these podcasts. And we were just saying when we just say now you could just feel that Holy Spirit just steps in. Yeah. And and if you just, I think it's the same for everyone, if you just open yourself up to the Lord and just let it flow. And yeah, and be honest, and the Spirit of God will just take over. Right. And that's really some of the stuff we want to talk about a day because several, I've got, I've got in front of me days to talk about something that I've challenged men for a long time to advocate for Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:25

What does that mean? Have a go? I've heard you say that a lot of times.

Simon Pinchbeck: 1:29

It just means what it says on the tin bed for the oven ago for Jesus, okay? And it means just doing something stepping out there doing something, no matter how small talking

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:43

about Christ. Give it a bit of literature, just being out there.

Simon Pinchbeck: 1:46

And it's the thing is, we'll speak about it, but it's no good. Just doing a nice deed. Because you can just another nice guy. Yeah. But it means having a go and letting people know why you're having a gun. So you know, the girl in the coffee shop or whatever? Yes. Our is without our are you today, you know? And the response will be varied. But nine times out of 10. She'll say oh, what am I okay, yeah, are you and because you're the first person and 50 She served who's actually taken the time to say I love to, because what do people do? They're on their phones at night. Yeah. On the phone. See a latte? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they just dismiss this person. Yeah. As someone who was just gonna be a copy giver. So spend a bit of time you don't have to spend a lot of time but just as someone out there and say, Hello. You know, God bless. Yeah. You know, I'm a believer in Jesus, and God loves you.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 2:46

So it's about conversations, just sharing your life, asking people how they are, or showing a bit of kindness, a bit of love a bit of it

Simon Pinchbeck: 2:54

a kindness show, doing a good deed, but doing it in the name of Jesus saying, you know, putting someone's been in, you know, an old lady or next door neighbors just pulling their bin in and saying, you know, they sweat out, thank you, you know, God bless you, you know, getting God or Jesus into the conversation. It's about taking those doors. It's adorable. It's adorable. What we what we did was in the church, and what we did we challenge men and women in the congregation to have a go for Jesus. Right? So that's what we challenge them. And, and it might be just be something as simple as telling your work colleagues, you've got a church.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 3:37

Wow, that's a big thing of doing this thing. That's a big thing to do. That's boldness.

Simon Pinchbeck: 3:43

It's bonus. So and what we was getting, at first, people are a bit reluctant. But But join, what happens is, one person will stand out so that you know I was I told people that I went to church i'd someone said, Tommy fantastic flank to the mast and tell him I'm a Christian. And then he was starting to get, oh, he spoke to someone on the train, they looked a bit down, I went over and started talking to him and introduced Jesus into the conversation and that's what it means by Evan, go for Jesus. Really? And yeah, it's something that we all can do. You don't have to walk around with your Bible.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 4:20

Nine sandals on

Simon Pinchbeck: 4:22

what's up. Here's the deal. When you start from scriptures in people's face, and you never see him again, they run for the hills. You know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 4:31

I think that as it's a well known fact that the biggest Bible people are read is you.

Simon Pinchbeck: 4:36

Yes. Oh, yeah. Without

Reverend Ben Cooper: 4:39

your actions away you are you've got to walk the talk and you go but that is so difficult to do, especially where we sit in this climate he mentioned about someone the commuters, you know, are traveling to London before locked down and I was quite surprised. I'd been out there for a few months. Now to go out there in London. And everybody's got a certain brand of phone. Everyone's got a certain color. Have headphone cable. Everyone's got a certain brand of earphones and it's like very robotic. So there's no there's a lot of movement but there's no noise anymore there's no good morning How are you? You know? Are you yeah good lovely This is none of that we've we're almost like very robotic we've lost the our conversation because as you said we're on our phones we're gadgets we're this we're that we don't put it down

Simon Pinchbeck: 5:27

how many times you see a family in a restaurant? Yeah. You know, the the my dad are on their phones? Yes. On the tablets?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 5:33

Yeah. on a tablet. You know, when you go to restaurants? gadget sorry, tablets? Whoa, yeah, no big surprise. It's so true.

Simon Pinchbeck: 5:46

My, my wife sometimes head offices in near Fenchurch Street. So she goes on the stance of Express everyone on their phones to get off. They actually also Liverpool Street, the venture Street. She said, no one looks up.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:03

No one walks up very robotic. Yeah. And London is very busy. But very quiet a voice

Simon Pinchbeck: 6:11

if you if you went on the tube and when how you might

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:15

go? Why

Simon Pinchbeck: 6:17

are you speaking to me?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:20

Good morning. Good morning, man. We've lost the art of conversation. Yeah. And that's a very dangerous thing. Because when you start losing the art of conversation, and you start to get heard, and you start to get manipulated and pushed and control comes in. Because we start to live that certain pattern of our life. We lose like the youth, isn't it? And you might have grandkids or young kids in your family. And they're always on the gadgets and there's no conversation anymore. You might have a house we have quite a few people live in it. But it's quiet from voice.

Simon Pinchbeck: 6:51

Yes,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:52

it's quiet from voice and and that's our fill the churches the church has lost its voice. It's busy going about. But it's lost the voice it is lost. It's had its voice taken away because we've got other things that are overtaking it.

Simon Pinchbeck: 7:08

Well, this is this this is the sad thing. You know, it's really sad. And I've got a mate in down in Dorchester. Paul is a is a is a great fellow in a bit and his whole purpose in his ministry is coming alongside non believers and just walking with him that he's got to give up his job to do that, really, and he's in a in a decent church. And as part of what we were doing with remember Christ. And he was saying to me the other day, he said, he said when we've added some open forum, he said he started doing what he called pub church, which was just getting a few veterans, non Christians exchanges chatting. And one time there was a pool table salad over gamma pool. Yeah. He said then the church started wanting to do more stuff. Yeah. And before we knew it four nights a week. He was out doing church stuff. Yeah. Not during the pop church. Yes. And he said in that time. someone's wife died. Well, who would it was part of the pole team, someone else on big problems. And he wasn't there and he wasn't there for him so we can become very, very busy doing.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 8:26

That's an interesting story, isn't it? There? We have decided discipleship going on around round a upon table relationships being built. Yeah. With the unchurched? Yes. So then the church wants time commitment. Yeah. So So when you look at that, the stuff that he was doing in that area of that pub ministry and all what he was doing, coming alongside fellows and walking with Him, that was Kingdom building, that was that was relationship building, but then the church has got other things and it's a complete different agenda, which has no eternal value now. And

Simon Pinchbeck: 9:00

and I would, you know, I would speak to these guys that are still do speak to these guys involved in men's ministry in big churches. Yeah. And they are certain you know, as the as a ministry men's ministry going on said well, it was very difficult to get the men together. Why? Because they're all doing different things within the church. Yeah. So that camaraderie that getting together and walking with each other that discipleship ship in each other is not they and what the church fails to realize is this is that men name men.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:37

iron sharpens iron sharpens iron

Simon Pinchbeck: 9:40

men named men. That's randomly meant to walk with to cut to talk with some men named men the banter with to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:48

be open with to be able to be honest with and the more you can talk and the more you can share things with a fella. Friend, gazer, bloke, wherever you Are you know, wherever whatever world you're in at the moment, it gives you a hope. When you start to talk, I'm thinking now, when you start to talk about the bigger issues, because you can't talk about issues with certain people in your family, you can't bring certain things up. And you might be struggling with things and your children, your wife, or you, or your sister or your father don't don't understand. But there is something between men there is a there is a

Simon Pinchbeck: 10:25

big connection. Yeah. And here's the thing, you know, we often say you often hear guys saying, Our men need and nothing box.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:36

And he's so yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck: 10:38

you know, what happens is, people have busy lives, they got young families, and the father will come home and all of a sudden, the wife or serve the kids all day, or whatever is the kids actually want to unload onto Yeah. And it won't even nothing or register

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:55

one register. No.

Simon Pinchbeck: 10:57

So what I mean, my son is a bit like that. He's got a beautiful young family. And what I say to him now I say, Look, why don't you just pull up in tescos car park around the corner? Give yourself 15 minutes just down just to chill out just to get the day

Reverend Ben Cooper: 11:15

to break. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck: 11:16

And then go home. I know, fellow that you had a big tree outside his house. And before he before he walked in, he just wipe his ends on the tree. And that was a signifying wiping the day out of his life. So when he got in, he was ready. He was ready for a family. Yeah. Because men need that men need their own space more. I don't know about women, but but men definitely need their own space at some point. And here's the thing, you know, look, I've been involved in, in evangelism, since really since I became a Christian was in 2002 and 10 years yeah, with the guys on top dog. I've done I've spoken to large groups of men, magnums, smoked a large churches, but a gospel message is seen many hands raised. But hold on. I think that time for mass evangelism

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:23

is gone. I think he's been gone a long time. That's that that ship had sailed A long time ago. Yeah, but we're trying to refuel it all the time. Mass gatherings mass, mass, mass

Simon Pinchbeck: 12:35

mass.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:35

Yeah. What actually no, it's the one to one. It's just a coffee as meeting Yeah. You know, just like we do maybe around blue watch our quick chat. That's That's powerful. Because I do not

Simon Pinchbeck: 12:51

take the time to listen to people and I often I've done you know, some working in prisons. And you know, during the work I do with with small numbers of men, and often men say, this is the first time anyone's ever listened to me. Sad in it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:11

That's sad, but the church doesn't listen. The church is beating this drum Boom, boom, boom, because he's got Scooby Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Thank

Simon Pinchbeck: 13:21

you scratch so many systems,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:22

too many systems, too many roadmaps, too many pie charts, too many flowcharts too many, too many graphs. It's a business model. And you can't build relation or ship understandings. You can't get close with one another. When you're using a business model. That business model is brought up. That computer has no heart has no feeling. I can sit in front of that all day long. So you know, Ben

Simon Pinchbeck: 13:48

is no place for these formulas or plans or Yeah, a set of questions. Unbelievable. People will go out and they'll have a set of questions. Yeah. And if you answer it one way, will will lead you down that path. If you answer it another way will lead you down this path is a thing. Why haven't we got a greatest example?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:14

We certainly have

Simon Pinchbeck: 14:16

and haven't we got Tindy leave us with something. The Holy believers with something that comforter so that my mama is you know, from the real men for Christ. He has a great way of saying he said we should just wear like chauffeurs to the Holy Spirit. We should just open the door. Yeah. Holy Spirit in a bank. Let him direct us to where he wants to go park the car, let him get out and then get on with it and get out of the way. That's what we should be doing. So we listen to spirit. Because we've actually only spirit, you could be up.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:55

So are we talking about not going in our own strength not going before are not running ahead of him being completely in tune. But we're living in a world that is so fast that he's so quick. So quick fight me, he's got me now. Now now. And churches go self in religion has got itself in such a way we'll report God out of the box our past 10 in the morning or Sunday morning, we'll bring him out for two hours, we put him back and we go on and do something else when actually, we've lost the understanding of living for Christ every second of our life.

Simon Pinchbeck: 15:28

Totally, this totally gone nowhere. Now, I'll give you an example. Because I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again today because it is relevant to what we're doing. And I would often ask two questions. You know, Listen, I've had the privilege to, to speak to churches together, all over the country, groups of people from different churches, different denominations, men's groups all over the country. And I can remember one especially and it's an example that is repeated, but we had about 40 churches represented in Luton, right, and that was that big churches. I was up there with my my random Baker, we've been given the opportunity by another, another great alien pastor, who's retired now a good mate of mine, alan west from LCA, and be given the opportunity to speak. Tell him a bit about men stuff. So as to questions and I've asked these many times, I say, what is the most important thing in a Christians life. And we went around the room, we go around the room, we get prayer, we get all sorts of different things we get reading the Bible we get, we get going to church, we've been part of a mission. Sometimes, a voice, little voice in the back or shout out, want to bet a relationship with Jesus?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:54

Let's go be number one. scoby

Simon Pinchbeck: 16:55

number one been

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:57

above everything of everything on earth on Earth, my relationship with Christ, because when I get my relationship, right, Seek ye first the kingdom. And everything else shall be added. Yeah. And you could if the world looked at that they go, that's very selfish. But it's not because as I build my faith as I get into Christ, and Christ gets more into me, and we, this is relationship building, it affects my family for the better affects my work for the better, it affects me for the better.

Simon Pinchbeck: 17:31

So then I, so then we we've got that your relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing. It's above everything. Everything is above everything. And that relationship needs to be strengthened through prayer, food or water. Let's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:44

cut this to the chase. We're talking about above your wife

Simon Pinchbeck: 17:47

above your children

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:49

above your job.

Simon Pinchbeck: 17:51

Yeah, your priorities is this. It's got a relationship with Jesus. Is it your wife? If you're married, it's your family. It's your work in is your ministry get mixed up.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:03

But there's a mix, isn't there? money? Money seems to be the biggest thing. And it's not because we because we might worship the money. It's because we've signed on it on the dotted line. mortgage.

Simon Pinchbeck: 18:17

Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:20

Kids,

Simon Pinchbeck: 18:21

difficult to let the Oh, isn't it been difficult to let go and let Jesus dry?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:29

Typically, we're living in a world in a culture where everything's credit, isn't it? That Hang on a moment. I'm working. I've got I have a good house. And I've got to do this. And the kids are gonna have this gadget that gadget come at a Christmas. So

Simon Pinchbeck: 18:42

you know, I mean, God has to be first. And I mean, a lot of guys, come we're talking Christian. Yeah. You know, and so my life's a train wreck. Because what, you know, what's your priorities? What time you give aren't got time to give to God?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:56

I don't know. Time I give. I

Simon Pinchbeck: 18:58

just fit him in when on where

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:00

family comes first. So even church is like, I got a church. That's it. That's it going to church isn't a relationship with Jesus? No,

Simon Pinchbeck: 19:11

no, no, no, no,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:13

it's about you. So could I say this? That you don't need to go to church to get Jesus?

Simon Pinchbeck: 19:19

Yeah, you can? Yeah, you can.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:21

So I can find Jesus in a field, you can find it could be in a transit van. I can be on a scaffold, I can be in the office. I could be in Asda.

Simon Pinchbeck: 19:29

And here's the deal. You probably won't find Jesus in many churches all around the story of a fella who went into a church yet bit of a church and shouts out early lujah. Jesus and a guy comes up to him and said, Excuse me, sir. We don't do that in this church. Except that I found Jesus. He said, we didn't find him in this church.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:57

That's so true. It's so true. It's so So so let's get a handle on this. So I can be anywhere on planet Earth. I can repent and say Jesus help me. Yeah. And he will show up because he's only present on the apartment he's listening to. He's listening. He's in the air that I wrote

Simon Pinchbeck: 20:15

in. He's white in Islam is he's he's the ultimate algorithm. He's waiting for you according. So there are those who call on the name of the Lord

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:27

shall be shall be saved. So my life as a Christian is not about how many times I clock in the establishment. It's how many times do I speak to Jesus during the day?

Simon Pinchbeck: 20:41

Know Matthew 722. And this is scary, because they go up to Jesus. And they say, we did this in your name, we did that in your name. And he says, What's the saint Ben? Go away from

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:57

Hawaii. I never knew you. Because we didn't have a

Simon Pinchbeck: 21:00

relationship with tears in his eyes, he closes the door, because you never saw me. You've never got to know me. Jeremiah 2911. Come on are the plans I have for you, declares, declares the Lord Jeremiah 2913 is the important part of find me. If you seek me with all your heart. That's the key, isn't it? That's the key, the heart issue.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:23

So what we got to be careful of here, then it says that we don't get caught in religion. We don't get caught in tradition, we don't get caught in the robotic process of I'm going to church, I've got a church, I'm at this meeting, I'm at that meeting. I'm beating the drum. I'm, I'm doing this. I'm doing this for the church, but I'm actually not living for Jesus. So live for Him.

Simon Pinchbeck: 21:42

So people talk about religion. But I missed the point because it's a relationship. Religion is the world's way of doing church church. relationship is God's way of doing church isn't a cinema.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:57

That's right. So So when you look at people's lives, men and women, and especially men, as we're talking about them at the moment, what seems to be is men are so busy, busy, busy, busy. I know, women are just just focused on us a minute. So we're talking about real men for Christ, and men are busy, busy doing long hours doing this doing that. And there seems to be some notion that the church culture is breeded that you've got to get in church, the more you get in church, the more you will know Jesus, I know what the scripture says about the don't forsake the coming together and being together and I get that. But what we've got to be careful of is that men have got to understand is that you can be the busiest man on the planet, not entering the church, but you can have the greatest relationship with Him, to the ones that's always in church, because if I'm in a religious building, it's meaningless. But if I am bringing God into my life, God, I've got a business meeting today. I'm stressed Lord, I've got to pay wages today. Help me Jesus, Lord, help me in my life. That is, this is a conversation as

Simon Pinchbeck: 22:57

a Christian as a Christian. Many people may look at you and think, Oh, you've got it all together. But here's the deal, you know, as a Christian Yeah, victory is made in public and made on your knees in private and that's the truth. And I would implore any person out there to find the Bible Of course, it is a private closet or a space race a secret place where you go and you just spend time with with with the Lord, you get on your face, lie on the floor and you're facing tears, you know, praying, you know, Lord, this is soulless out do this. I've been out but most of all, I love you or thank you for you for everything you've done. Because believe me if you put a column Yeah, for the blessings, and then a column for the tough stuff. The blessings are always outweigh the bat always always realize that do it but we don't mind because our concentration from the enemy is focused on the material is focused on the bowels and the bad stuff, rather than focusing on the amazing stuff. Yeah, the Lord has given you to know I remember it's too much to go into now but but I've got a decent a nice enough a house up in, in Essex square. And remember room, just spin in my kitchen one day and Aaron, you know, all the it's a rollover for a lottery and all that and so for what I could do with that, and the Lord suit me quick, and we just like to give you this

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:33

little noisy one. Sometimes the miracle is in front of us, right? Just like the church is fine and praying and praying and praying to release that disciple from prison. Yeah. And so often we can miss the miracle. The servant girl runner runs to the door. I hear the voice. You're you're praying for the disciple and he's at the door. In a church as I imagine, we're praying, we're in prayer. miracle is in front of you. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck: 25:07

So, so many times, and we do we are we pray, Lord, give me someone who I can share the gospel with. Yeah, you know, and you jump on a tube, jump on a bus, you're in a coffee shop, and there's a guy and he's ends in his ear. And he's holding his hands going, ah, I just need to know something. I just need to know something. I'm just need to grasp onto something. Can you go? Is this the guy?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:36

Is he sure I want to stay in Lord, give me a pulpit.

Simon Pinchbeck: 25:40

And so, so there's the thing. So the next question I ask is, what's the most exciting thing you can do as a Christian? And we get all sorts of answers to that as well, Ben, you know, pray fellowship, or that sort of thing. But the most exciting thing as a as a Christian, isn't it is being part being part of the process that leads someone to faith being part. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 26:11

But the question I have, I've got to bring it back to the church. How often do we see that in church? Go back beginning the pandemic go back years? How often we might see it once or twice. But it is it is it's we're not seeing that our way. Now. We're not seeing what we should say is the film because the focus has been,

Simon Pinchbeck: 26:34

let me tell you what churches been it's, it's an attractional. model. Yeah. With preachers speaking out. Yeah. So how many times are you in it in a church and someone goes, Oh, you come and tell us about your week today? Who said, an encounter with Jesus this week, who's spoken to someone about Jesus this week? He doesn't know. Very, it's very rare that that happens. Come on, tell us how you got Jesus into your life this week. And believe me, if that happened on a more regular basis, more people would be out there having a guide for Jesus testimony. Yeah. Why? Because,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:17

wow,

Simon Pinchbeck: 27:17

I want to be in that place. I

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:19

want to be on this journey. I want to I want to be out share Jesus, I want to be a speaker.

Simon Pinchbeck: 27:25

Living Yeah. An exciting Christian. Yeah. And what happens then? We should more exciting been in it than watching. I'm a celebrity. Yes, we're excited. By this, it's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:41

my friend we're praying for.

Simon Pinchbeck: 27:42

But it's more exciting. So when you wake up in the morning, and you go, Father, Lord, would you want me to speak today? Where do you want me to go today? Let the Holy Spirit been farming? She's like, do you know what happens? The devil goes, Oh, no, he's awake. Oh, oh, no. Rather than going up. And, and you shake the case about my friend, yes. What happens then? Because we are ready from the word go. Because the enemy will make a play for your mind. Even before you get out of there. Once you start

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:23

praying prayers are that, Lord, what do you want me to do? Once you start praying the prayer of that prayer that Christ prayed in the garden of your will? Your will down? Come on What is your will? But it's interesting the garden. Now what we've got to understand is that prayer Your will be done when we prayed. And pres Father, what is your plan for me today? Where do you want me to be? What do you want me to do? Now? A lot of people I've got so tied up, they can't pray that prayer. Would you want me to go a day, Lord, because I've signed on the dotted line of mortgage life and about the world is offering. There's only one place I'm going to work. I've got to get on the train at six o'clock in the morning. I'm out all day. But what you got to be careful of is that where what you don't want to land in is the mindset of, I've got to be in church to do this stuff. Yeah, no, just because you're gonna work that is a greatest, greatest territory that you will ever walk into.

Simon Pinchbeck: 29:19

I was coming on to that, you know, wherever you are, is your church. Where are you? Wherever you are, is your mission field. So if you signed up and this is this is what this is how the church get. Yeah. The Church says, we have a teacher here. Yeah, we have a prophet. Yeah. This is so we have an evangelist here. Yeah. And they'll do all the out rich. No, no, we're all evangelists. Your mission field is where you are,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:46

where you are. So wherever

Simon Pinchbeck: 29:48

you are, at any time of the day, that's your mission fair. So

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:51

I might have a busy life. I might be strapped up to the Hill for finances. I might have got myself in a bit of an awkward moment where I can't go where The church tells me to go but wherever I go, and I have to earn that bread Christ is with me. So my work colleagues and the landscape before me, that's the ground I'm working in

Simon Pinchbeck: 30:12

Matthew 516 says this Yeah, it says that the light of Jesus shine out of your soul. And everyone will know your heavenly Father wherever I am. So wherever you are, you can be able to go for Jesus don't have to even speak it. No.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:26

Now that live for Jacob, look for Jesus. So if I'm working in town, if I'm on a on a on a site, if I'm trapped in an office all day churches give us this culture is that you can't be an Aries. You've got to work in the church, but actually, I need to work in the in the stony areas in the hot areas because dry air that desire How

Simon Pinchbeck: 30:48

many times does the church go? Come on? come up to the front. What do you do for a living? I'm a bus driver. Yeah. Did you get Jesus into your life this week? Come on, tell us about it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:59

What do you what do you think? Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck: 31:01

what do you do? I'm a big man. How did you get?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:05

How did you get? Well, I

Simon Pinchbeck: 31:06

woke up a city. How did you get Jesus into your life? What does Jesus mean to you? They don't listen, it doesn't happen all that because we're too busy telling you to live your life, which is busy spouting out. new revelations. No, there's no new revelations of the Bible. No, we're too busy trying to put condemnation on him. Yeah, rather than setting up this relationship with Jesus Christ, because if you're living in a relationship with Jesus Christ, you be conflicted. You will open up your betrayals, yeah, with either one another or with Christ. And you'll be asking for forgiveness, but but you'll be prepared and ready to look and not hit people over the head, but the bowl, but just bring a bit of light into a dark place. And this is what we need to do. At this moment in time we one of the WhatsApp groups I'm in right, a beginning of this pandemic was, he was talking about Rainbows, isn't it? Great to see all the rainbows because the NHS did the rainbow thing? Didn't know. And I said, Yeah, I said, Yeah, but don't forget the rainbow is God's symbol, some kind of been hijacked a little bit. Because it's a symbol of hope, hope. And this guy said, well, shouldn't someone be telling people this? I said, Yeah, you should. You should you should be telling people to Yeah, oh,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:31

accommodation. So that's what's really important when you say having a go for Jesus. Firstly, I just say, Lord, I'm a child of the living God, I'm your son and your daughter. I'm going to follow you. And then if we go into the busy world of work, corporate environments, wherever we are, that is my church. That is that is the church. That is the area. So you can go to a cup of data. You want a cup of tea a day for it to Gundam Gundam rodenator. Just building a relationship, walk, that's ministry,

Simon Pinchbeck: 33:03

building a relationship with someone learning the trust, earning the right to speak into

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:09

them, and they go, what did you do over the weekend? What do you do? I went to football. Now when the church Yeah, he went to church. I didn't know that you never said that.

Simon Pinchbeck: 33:18

I just don't get what a Cutler fellows quite makes a mob but we're all believers in Jesus Christ. You see. The church spent too long in my opinion. Praying for revival praying for the God of heaven to come out and pour down rain down fire. And suddenly, and they were expecting this to happen with this pandemic. Oh, yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:43

Granted, you

Simon Pinchbeck: 33:44

Sydney says there's gonna be a great revival. This is it? No, no, no, because people just want to return back to normality, but there will be a revival. It will be a personal revival. It'll be you and I, and speaking to our neighbors speaking to our mission field, and literally me, we're all evangelists. You know, wherever you are, wherever you are, people are looking

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:11

at you that frightens people when you say that we're all evangelists. Now. They go, Wait a minute, I can't speak in public. I can't do this. I can't go door knocking. It's not what we mean. What we mean is if you live for Jesus, you are evangelizing you are giving the gospel out so your your life you become a beacon, you become a light on a hill, you you shine out. So you're you're evangelizing and just by living and taking the gospel into the workplace into the area in which you live you were you got that word evangelist, you know, expecting someone out of town to come in fill stadiums up when actually no, no, it's the men and women commute in it's that you you are living this you I'm sharing the gospel. I'm walking the talk. That's what it's about. You know,

Simon Pinchbeck: 34:57

john little john photos is all about is at his ministry. And we are We came alongside people we are we spoke to people that did the one on one stuff.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:07

That's right.

Simon Pinchbeck: 35:08

They did the one on one stuff as well. We have to be after B. Now, you know, the thing is, the trouble is the church, and we're giving the church a bit of a kicking and well, it's it's only because sometimes they deserve it they need, they want to be shaken up. You see, you can't be the will to win the World. You cannot be the world to win the work. You have to be different. I've seen it on when in the prisons, you know, I go into prisons, which were some of a Christian men and women don't work in that prison, perhaps. And they think they have to speak like they think the prisoners are speaking. Yeah, no, no, because the prisoners, they want us. They want people to different, different, they want to see different they want to see peace on you. They don't want to see fear on you. They want to know what and we can still do this, because we're still commissioned by the Commission hasn't gone away, that makes me

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:08

go, I think what's really important some is what you said about all we're giving the church a bit of a roar into the stick here, but I'm afraid to say it, it has to be. Because if you adopt the policies of the nation in which you live in over the power of the Word of God, you need to be corrected, if the church is adopting the policies of coming out of Europe, and the policies that are coming out of different government departments over and allowing them policies to rule them rather than the Word of God. That is not the real Church of Jesus Christ. Now, because the church, the body of Christ, will stick to that word, no matter what happens. It might be labeled as church, it might be known as the state church, it might be a big church in the town, but it is living by the word then it's the real body across the real body, if it was following the principles of the world, and it has got come they know day policies. You know, leaders come in governments come in policies change all the time, if this has stayed the same. He says I'm the same yesterday, today and forevermore, His Word is yes and Amen. But he talked about giving the church a bit of a weapon there, it has to be because we can't live by policies anymore. The policies will get us into trouble, like it did for the Israelites use adopt the attitude of the nation,

Simon Pinchbeck: 37:32

and even to lead an exciting Christian life when they're shackled by the religion and the corporate stuff that some of the churches put on you you How can you do that? You know, we you want to be legalistic walking with Jesus Christ, while a

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:49

Freedom

Simon Pinchbeck: 37:50

listening to the Holy Spirit, tell you who to go and speak to because, you know, we've all tried it. We've all tried it with family members. Yeah. When we're not in the spirit and try to and they confused as they tie a knot something or more where we can't get the words, right. And then when we're when we're done with Yeah, and so they look at you, they've tied you up in knots. And when they're not around, suddenly you think I should have said that I should have said the Yeah. So you don't speak until the other spirits speak. That's right. And, you know, is a deal if you're speaking to and I know that you've got here in Swanee, you've got our guys on the other side of the tracks.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:35

100% or so.

Simon Pinchbeck: 38:37

You know, the worst of sinners been? I've got a wider sphere of friends. That's right. So they've got the biggest families. Yeah, so all of a sudden they see someone's life changing Yeah. They're gonna see they're gonna wanna maybe a little bit of that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:55

it makes you think, doesn't it? It makes you think

Simon Pinchbeck: 38:57

and we're not to be we're not to our prejudice we speak early we're not you know Jesus number a prejudiced number that Samaritan Oh yeah, she does she she that fibers when she was a biggest adulterous in the town. Yeah. And the Jewish people to remember the Jewish rabbi they they had to even if they closed brushed a Samaritan the washroom and cleanser and

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:24

and that's what we see today. so caught up in that stuff and missing the one that is hurting bother well, missing the ones caught on addiction. Yeah, missing the one call in in in the habits and can't break free because they're frightened to talk about it. Because it's trying to make itself look so pure. But inside is broken. We're at a place where then we say to ourselves, cause assignment you know what? We're talking about living for Christ. But you know, I've got a checkered past or I've still got things going on inside of me that I'm dealing with. I need help. But I can't go to church because it makes me feel dirty. It makes me feel bad. It doesn't doesn't make me feel comfortable. Yeah, where do we go? Yeah, where

Simon Pinchbeck: 40:13

do we go? Where do we go makes me feel?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:18

not worry makes me feel unrighteous when and then you come

Simon Pinchbeck: 40:21

to are exactly 100%. Right. I, I, I sit in it with these groups, and then we do some day stuff. And these are church men, right? Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:33

there's a church,

Simon Pinchbeck: 40:33

man. And these guys will say at the end of it, they will go. I'm so glad I came to this day without a bold encounter. I'm so glad to come to this day. if for no other reason, I realized that these other men in the church come from the same crowd as what I'm going exactly. Because, as you said, the Sunday morning church face, you know, let's put this on everyone's everyone's happy. clappy no one's no one's coming in going, oh,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:01

oh, Lord, help me. I mean that, no, I've got that gambling addiction law I'm struggling with but speak to guys one on one different story

Simon Pinchbeck: 41:11

and let the Holy Spirit do the do the digging and the debt and the deep calling. And all of a sudden, it's a different story. They've all got problems and problems with their fathers, they've all had problems with their family, they've all maybe tickled a little bit with pornography. Yeah. And they bring that early on.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:30

But the problem we got with the pornography side of things, everything is sexualized. Wherever you go, wherever you are men or women, wherever you go some of the things on telly, you would never believe that you can even get away with it anymore. Exactly. So so many things that are out there. So, so it's feeding the flesh. Yeah. So you've got this battle all the time. And, and the church feeds the flesh, it beats you up in a way when they doesn't allow you to be you. It tries to cover things over it tries to smooth things over rather than going awry. You today so many of you, right? What sort of weight you added, you know, I you struggle this weight yet. You know, we just want to make it be open. Because the more you talk about it freedom comes through speech?

Simon Pinchbeck: 42:16

Well, the deal is we want you to be to have an environment where if you can share Yeah, times when maybe you don't want to share my times when you want to just deal with stuff and come to church for maybe, you know, yeah, you know, a few songs or lift us up, but but you need that you need to have an environment where you know that if you need to you can I know many big churches where the photos just go, I can't open up. Why? Well, then I'll be judged. Scary. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:57

I never comes.

Simon Pinchbeck: 42:58

So. So you see if you're sitting there thinking, being led by the Holy Spirit, that sounds a bit scary, doesn't it? You know? Yeah, given? And how does the Holy Spirit work? Well, you know, the Bible's full of times when when the other spirits works, and our lives we can, if we were to return, return our lives that will be full of times, when they've told us how did I get here? I

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:27

did not get to get here. I actually get through this. Yeah.

Simon Pinchbeck: 43:32

And those are the times when you know, that the Spirit Gods worked. And one of the great stories and and I know you love the Old Testament. So one of the great stories of Holy Spirit working is remember the Book of Esther. Yeah, but a book of Esther. Yeah. Do you remember when she was a Jewish was she she was she was married to one of the one of the kings from one of the one of the pressure countries and they weren't Christian, obviously. They weren't Jewish anyway. And there was a decree one day there's a guy called Hamon, do you remember him? And he put up a decree out to kill all the Jews, right? And here's the deal. The King one night, he couldn't sleep. Right. So we're in a book. He couldn't sleep. And instead of, you know, maybe calling one of his wives to soothe him or Yeah, or calling the musicians, what do you do?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:30

One thing he could do,

Simon Pinchbeck: 44:31

he called for a book, right? He call for a book. And what book did he get? He got a book that said that one of the one of the top Jews, Mordecai and saved the king's life. Revelation

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:47

Hmm.

Simon Pinchbeck: 44:48

And then he goes on to reward that guy Mordecai. did, was he rewarded? Or the answer was no. So he said, he saved the Kings line. All of a sudden it turned kept my best horse, get my row get my ring. And as I would have been wandering in, and he's saying to the guy was that going our the king wants to reward someone, you know to remember that you see what he's gonna say, you know it must be me

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:15

because it yeah and then

Simon Pinchbeck: 45:17

the king goes round and goes give this horse in his robe to Mordecai and Hammond had already built a set to kill him. And then roof there sorry Esther goes and says the king Hammond wanted to kill the Jews and motorcar and why abdomin got topped in he got to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:39

come up. And so you know, when you think about that story, that biblical fact,

Simon Pinchbeck: 45:44

so the whole Jewish nation was saved. When they were in, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:49

over for stuff, it's powerful stuff very powerful. God will microwave where they might be impossible, when everything is stacked up when the enemy is coming for you in the gallows has been built without gallows. And it was there it was already. The enemy was building up to it. The enemies got this agenda but nothing It got my take you to the wire, it might take you to the edge and and that's what's happening in believers at this moment. We are on the edge, we are at the wire, and we're going materialism doesn't work anymore. Culture doesn't work anymore. Business doesn't work anymore. Who am I going to rely on? And these are men and women of biblical faith but because we haven't been taught and shown how to live in dark times. Yeah. That's where the struggle is. Let me

Simon Pinchbeck: 46:42

tell you a story. And this is often tell the story. Then I asked a question about having a go for Jesus. Right. So what it was, and this is a true story, there was a allegedly a true story there. There was a tightrope walker called blondell. And in the 19th century, and he would walk over anything, you know, walk over crevasses and they strung up a tie right over there. Niagara Falls, right. And there's a big crowd there. And blondell obviously went off and he walked across the Niagara Falls with a balance beam. He walked across without a balance beam. He walked across blindfolds folded. And the story says he walked across, cooked an omelet in the middle, and walk back. And then he had a wheelbarrow. And he walked across with a wheelbarrow. He walked across with a sack of spokes in a wheelbarrow. And he walked across with a dog in a wheelbarrow. And as he came back, he sees this guy jumping and cheering even though it must be my biggest friend must be my biggest, my biggest fan. And he goes over and he said, Do you think I could do that again? And the guy says, Yeah, of course you can. He said, You really think I could do that again? He says, Yeah, of course you can. He said, pick up and do that again. He said no. And the guys getting angry now. He said, I'm seeing you do all that the new course you can do it. He said getting the wheelbarrow. That changes everything guy goes. We'll see you later. Yeah, what? So what God is asking you to do? If you listen is saying get in the wheelbarrow.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:17

Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck: 48:17

get in the wheelbarrow.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:20

I'm not in control. My whole life is in your hands. You want me to do that? You want? Yes, yeah. Let's get into the center of the top bar. Let's get right out.

Simon Pinchbeck: 48:32

Fife. So what is this faith? So radical faith? It can only be radical, radical faith. What does that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:41

seek out going out on beyond a relationship with God?

Simon Pinchbeck: 48:44

radical faith becomes radical obedience. Yeah, right, radical. So if you've got radical

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:50

faith, then all things are possible to those who believe.

Simon Pinchbeck: 48:54

So you, you've been to church, right? You've been a church. Yeah, you're in a great church service. praise our Lord. Whatever you got for me, put into the petrol station. You just need a bit of fuel before you go out and are watching a football this afternoon. You got a nice Sunday dinner. And the Lord says, I'm going to speak to that fellow over there and having a good day and just want to tell you tell him about my Son, Jesus Christ. Oh, Lord, I've just given you two hours at the church, which is give me an hour at the church. good conversation over a cup of tea. Did you not remember that? But I want you to speak to him

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:31

in the highways and the byways of life.

Simon Pinchbeck: 49:33

I could get someone else to speak to him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:35

But right now call the church right now. I

Simon Pinchbeck: 49:38

want you to speak to sorry, Lord stand God type and as a back in the car, and off you go. Yeah, that's when the rubber hits the road. So if you're open to that, if you're open to that, and Ben, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:57

it's about him.

Simon Pinchbeck: 49:59

Getting a little bit Personal review. I know you do that many times in the hospital. And the Lord said, Yeah, give me my word.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:06

Yeah, give him always that's definitely Yeah. Yeah, most definitely. That's it. speak to that.

Simon Pinchbeck: 50:12

Tell him about my son Jesus Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:14

conversations that the world never know about. Yeah, there's no audience around. There's no bit. There's no notoriety. No one's saying, what lovely seven a day pastor,

Simon Pinchbeck: 50:24

you aren't getting an MBA,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:25

you're not getting none of that.But you know what they're saying, so beautiful about talking about Jesus.

Simon Pinchbeck: 50:31

I remember the story. And this is another True story. Frank January, his name was he was in Australia, he was on a merchant ships. And he came to faith powerfully. And he would I think it's George Street. And Sydney was standing. He said, Lord, you've saved my life. I'm not going to tell 10 people a day about you. And so he's studying George Street, Sydney, and he handed out different tracks to people his own story, sort of people have badges on it says, Are you saved? Do you want to know Jesus? That's all he say.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:06

That's all it was. And

Simon Pinchbeck: 51:09

so and so that is documented that that many people around the world started their journey of faith through speaking to this guy, Frank, Jenna, and and a guy who became a bishop. Yeah. said before I leave this planet. I want to go back and speak to Frank. I want to go back and speak to this guy. Yeah. So he went back to he went all around the world. And he found many, many people. Yeah, that story, their journey of faith by speaking to Frank, just those just those little words. And, and he went, and he found Frank Jenner. And Frank was getting on a bit and have a cup of tea. That's where the story gets a bit emotional, because

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:59

a failure

Simon Pinchbeck: 51:59

he, he sat there, this this guy was a bishop and said, Look, you know, you started me off on my faith journey. He said, I've met many, many men and women around the world that you had an influence in their life. To start with, yeah. And Frank looked at him crying, and he said, I never even knew what Wow,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:27

never no one ever lent this but I was reading this and I gave it a go for Jesus.

Simon Pinchbeck: 52:35

So what we're saying is, you know, you don't have to be the Alpha and the Omega.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:40

It's not about feeling stable about No, not about the on pulpit. It's about the conversation at work is about having a go for Jesus family. God just telling people that love of Christ.

Simon Pinchbeck: 52:52

See, just just gain just doing a good deed or nice deep again, Jesus, or gone into the conversation somewhere. Yeah, just Stein off because people go, what's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:04

different about I want to find out more about who's this guy or this woman what, what do you do? It's just that the biggest Bible, as I said earlier, is that anyone will ever read it is you Yes. The way you act, the way you live the way the way you deal with tough situations or where you are in the workplace or why you are at the school gates. The way you are, you know, that your character

Simon Pinchbeck: 53:27

there's a there's a lovely line that is attributed to some Francis of Assisi that says, preach the gospel at all times. Sometimes use words, and that's the true preach the gospel, but sometimes use words

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:41

living for Jesus and living

Simon Pinchbeck: 53:43

Jesus and having a go.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:45

Now having a go for Jesus is going to take five gonna take courage, and as God made it very clear to Joshua, be strong,

Simon Pinchbeck: 53:56

be strong and courageous, good courage.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:59

Do not give up you will see you will prosper.

Simon Pinchbeck: 54:02

One will have do not look to the left or the right.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:05

Meditate day and night on this one a word hate this law. hate this. Keeping the word keep just speaking about Jesus. And that's not preaching sermons. That is living and walking with God. Living by the Spirit and living by faith. Just trust in Him in your business. trust in Him for your family trust in him having a go for Jesus. It sounds like a big evangelist ik mission. But it's not. It's not it's just living for Jesus. I've,

Simon Pinchbeck: 54:34

I've I've challenged men many times and men in the 70s and 80s have come out of me go. I can have a god for Jesus God,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:42

I can do this.

Simon Pinchbeck: 54:43

I can do this. I can do this.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:45

Because you hope

Simon Pinchbeck: 54:46

Yeah, yeah, you just live it out. And it's sort of a relationship, which is what you said. And building that relationship, prayer and getting into the word of conversation come along, and just continually saying, God, you Use me I am nothing without you But everything I made you a lot. Yeah, I'm not worthy for your son Jesus Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:08

Just say the word and I'm were breathtaking Yeah. breathtaking to know that all my past is now to the cross. All my future is now to the cross. I can do all things through Christ that gives me strength, the platform my life that is laid out the landscape before me now that is my church that is that is that is my, my area of working in living for Jesus, you know, and just giving out the love of Christ just speaking being kind just just just just doing as Jesus would do ever go.

Simon Pinchbeck: 55:40

Yeah, just Jesus you don't need. You don't need a formula. You don't need a plan. You don't need a set of questions. Follow Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:48

Just follow Jesus and be spirit.Just come on.

Simon Pinchbeck: 55:51

Come on and have a go. Just have a go. Just Just listen and say would you honestly just ever go to the checkout? Go to the supermarket? Just have a go. Just be How are you? Yeah, that's all so so just just involving conversation. Because believe me, she's probably had about 100 people each fruit all around in about about the pandemic money.And when you go ever you

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:19

Yeah,

Simon Pinchbeck: 56:20

you see the look of the change on their face and play change. I go Yeah. Okay. Thanks for thanks for asking. Thank you so much for asking. Do you notice I'm I'm a Christian. I'm a believer. And there's a God that loves us all, you know. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And he's there for so and it will be all right. I'll be okay. All is well.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:43

Yeah. Simon. We're gonna land this. Could you close in prayer?

Simon Pinchbeck: 56:49

Yes, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:52

It's been a difficult one. Yeah. Yeah. It was very emotional this afternoon. It's our offering.

Simon Pinchbeck: 56:57

I think this could feel the spirit. Because the spirit Yeah. The Lord wants to get out. It wants to get out to every single Christian Jesus follower out there that get out. And now's the time. You were here for a time such as this. I never got back to ever go in my name. I've forgotten the name of my Son, Jesus Christ, and lead an exciting Christian life. Please come back and tell us what's been going on. And you might you need quiet when you do. You take the focus away from yourself. And you feel and you said it earlier? I don't know where it was in this podcast are number one, but a joy the Lord, that becomes your strength. That's 10 feet tall. Yeah, wow. And no matter what you're going for, no matter what you're thinking, no matter what bad day, if you've had a bit of patience, and come alongside someone, the the power of the Spirit of God to rise up in

Reverend Ben Cooper: 57:57

you. And you said that is it's not the flesh. It's the Spirit of God. It's the Holy Spirit moving within you strengthen in you, guiding you, helping you giving you the words to say. He's the door opener, you know what, there's so much to be thankful for someone with thank you so much for your time. you're sharing, you're opening your heart up. It's been great just to sit here to be part of a journey with you, real man for Christ. And it's a privilege just to be to chat with you. We thank God for yourself, your family, your boys, your little dog, big dog, you know, and can you close us in prayer? You know, and it's just good. It's just so good. Just Just tacky. Jesus

Simon Pinchbeck: 58:37

probably want to lift up every common out there who's listening to this and thinking, yeah, you know what, I can have a go, I can go for Jesus with what I'm doing. I pray that you'll strengthen them, I pray that you lead them to the right place to live to write scriptures, I pray that they'll open themselves up and go as Ben said, that prayer that Jesus prayed, not my will but your will be done father, and I just want to follow Jesus father, strengthen them with a father and just just lead them to come alongside of him and women, men and women that that tell them about your son Jesus and tell him about the salvation in Jesus Christ. Come lift anyone out there who's who's thinking about this stuff, and want to be led to lead a more exciting christian i because this time, you're raising up an army, you're ready to go out and win. Come on all souls. That's all you ever wanted. You've got enough of everything else. It's soldier one. Yes, Father, praise God. We pray for men and women out there to go out there and have a go for Jesus. In Jesus name. Amen. Amen.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 59:51

Amen. So thank you so much again, for joining us here in alien church in Swanee. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. You've been enjoying myself Reverend Ben Cooper, and great friend Simon pinch back and we pray that God will carry him all the way back home, in the name of Jesus and we'll catch you very soon. Thank you so much for giving us time to do these podcasts and we really appreciate it. Stay safe, stay under the belt of Christ and never give up. Thank you