Good morning and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast in Elim church in Swanley. You're joining myself, Reverend Benjamin Leonard Cooper for this Hour of Power with our good friend, our great mate, holy sanctified washed in the blood of Jesus, there is no one greater than Bishop Simon, the bishop,
Simon Pinchbeck:bishops in the bishop,
Reverend Ben Cooper:not song, thank you so much for joining us, you know, it's New Year's Eve. We're just in the podcasting room and please share anything we do. Simon is doing a great, great lot of work with Real Men for Christ and, and what we do we just come in which is chatting, alien church and its little pod room, a little cozy room at the back. just chatting about Jesus. It's that simple.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's just amazing bandwidth. We said it before, just as we finished the last one, you know, other other Lord turns out on a spirit. Turns out Yeah, and all of a sudden, you know, we're saying things that the Spirit wants us to say, you know, because,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes,
Simon Pinchbeck:we've got no message apart from this message, you'll be able to bring much
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know, nothing. I realized, you study years and years and years theological staff, you study all that. And you think, actually, you got to be careful with that. And yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah, I mean, you become a legend in your own lunchtime.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, 10 minutes a day. I look in the mirror. And I tell myself that great I Am.
Simon Pinchbeck:And so you really got to be careful. So you know, we've just we've given this given this podcast this this error of power is Power Hour up to up to the Lord and say just, you know, speak froze. So what you want us to say, at this time, and you know, we're coming into a new year tomorrow is 2021.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we got a night. well spent. No shot. Judges shot.
Simon Pinchbeck:There's a bit of shouting down at Swanley. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we're packing them in 10 pound a ticket. Number 10 Downing Street. Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:you're up where others fear the trigger.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah, we got liquor on sale. We've got cigars beyond pulpit you've got
Simon Pinchbeck:food.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Tonight is gonna be a wild night locking, locking, a locking and locking down. We're gonna run it we're gonna start with distance in foot apart. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:Thank goodness, this podcast coming out after the
Reverend Ben Cooper:GP I'll be in trouble will not
Simon Pinchbeck:be the big key was down a bit
Reverend Ben Cooper:queues down a road. Le copters. In trying to get in from
Simon Pinchbeck:all over the world.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We're having to write tonight. A lock in for Jesus. They're looking for Jesus. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:And that's about the long and short of it. Then we're going to talk today I just listened to something from, you know, David Wilkerson. Again, though I listened to quite a lot. And it really struck home with me and Benny said that God's doing a new thing. Praise God. God's doing a new thing. And he's doing a new thing, I think would be church. Yeah. Right. This moment in time. I just I want to open up this conversation with with a scripture is from number six
Reverend Ben Cooper:scripture 20. Church, the Bible. Yeah. Do you remember that? I'm sorry. Do you check
Simon Pinchbeck:for new sermons? No, I
Reverend Ben Cooper:always read out different books by different pastors. Yeah, yeah, he
Simon Pinchbeck:sent us a Bible. What is being bought by God really is the word of God. Did you know that?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, ah,
Simon Pinchbeck:scary. And it's just County. So so. And they said, A priestly blessing really is a blessing for the church. Yeah. And, you know, let's, let's, let's read
Reverend Ben Cooper:the question first. What is the church? Well, we're gonna
Simon Pinchbeck:we're gonna talk about where the church now man, you are the church. That's it. Come on church, we
Reverend Ben Cooper:are the church. Let's, let's get serious.
Simon Pinchbeck:This is a priestly blessing. And he says, and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, speak to Aaron and his sons saying, this is the way you should bless the children of Israel. So this is the way that you The Lord wants to bless His Church, right? This is the way an almost oppressive church and it says, The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you. and be gracious to you the Lord lift up his countenance on you and give you peace
Reverend Ben Cooper:out Beautiful,
Simon Pinchbeck:beautiful, amazing brings you you know, well
Reverend Ben Cooper:done it.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, that is the blessing that our Lord wants to bring to his church. But you know, man corrupts the church, Danny
Reverend Ben Cooper:is corrupted all the way through Israel all the way through it all the way through generations. generations. It's the flesh has got in the flesh has got wanting to control the flesh wants glory, the flesh, you know, been Bit flippant talking about the Word of God like that earlier. What is the Bible and all that, but that's how it feels. Yeah, that's how. That's how
Simon Pinchbeck:it feels. But I've got news. I'll come I'll come disappointing. We've got news. I feel like
Reverend Ben Cooper:a wise man.
Simon Pinchbeck:I've come from a stance the truth. I know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You've seen the helicopter over Swanley, you fall at the helicopter, not the star is always a police helicopter.
Simon Pinchbeck:And shiny
Reverend Ben Cooper:star.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, no. God wants to start a new thing. God wants a new thing. And he started a new thing all the way through the generations. Let's go. Let's look at Isaiah 43. Eight to 19. June, June. He was a famous scripture. You probably don't even
Reverend Ben Cooper:Old Testament. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. I'm familiar with a no, yeah. But I wasn't told about the Old Testament because the God of grace, God of love. Jesus loves you.
Simon Pinchbeck:What God's saying in this in this scripture, forget the things that are past.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Forget the former things.
Simon Pinchbeck:So get the four things I want to start a new thing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What are you doing it? Now
Simon Pinchbeck:I want to bring rivers in the desert and in the wilderness,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we are living in powerful times. That's what we're seeing. That's what we're seeing. That's what we're saying is there's a choice there's a choice to to follow God to follow Christ to follow the world to be in the old to be in the new to not separate the old from the new from Genesis to Revelation. God is doing a new thing
Simon Pinchbeck:and he's always done a new Frankie.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's always
Simon Pinchbeck:we said it before and then last but he did it a Shiloh with it. Yeah, Jeremiah did with ami. He did it with a cross. Thank you, Jesus. He did it a Pentecost Yes. Is always started a new is and doesn't mean that the old he stops the old one they can carry on doing their thing. But the new is coming. So to
Reverend Ben Cooper:do the new you can only find out what the new is. As it starts to happen. As it starts to happen. It drops it revelation or knowledge he drops it in. So you're going by faith. The Bible says The just shall live by faith. But religion goes by site and tradition and by habit.
Simon Pinchbeck:Why is he starting a new thing? Now, Ben,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because we are living at the at the end of time. And what we are finding is that religion and Sunday mornings for two hours, we can't pull him out of the box for two hours. God is moving. He's always been moving. He says I'm the same yesterday, today. And forever. More on there is power in the name of Jesus. So what God is doing is shaking the church and why
Simon Pinchbeck:is he shaking the church man? Because
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's it's under the hand of government. It's
Simon Pinchbeck:always the same. It always starts right around but it comes it falls down because he falls into idolatry.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. idolatry. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:of numbers. idolatry of excess idolatry. Money.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. How many books you sold? How many people in your congregation? That's the first question. People always ask me. And I think I've said that before. Whenever you're hanging around in churches together meetings, and you meet people, like oh, yeah, your pastor within the church here. How many people in your congregation? I say, none. Well, actually, I've got free Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So there's four. And if anyone else shows up at a service, it's a bonus. It's a bonus. Everyone is interested in numbers. It's a number. And that is the same in the world.
Simon Pinchbeck:And the sad thing is been we talked about a word of God, but these churches who were talking about, and you know, man, we just haven't been there number term, but also do they, they talk about a theology to justify what they're doing?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. Yeah, they
Simon Pinchbeck:don't they feel like they have this. They have this doctrine. Yeah, to justify exactly what they're doing. And a lot of it comes from the doctrine of social justice. Oh, goodness, gracious, we're
Reverend Ben Cooper:on subject there. Goodness, social justice.
Simon Pinchbeck:And what happens is they it's a perversion of the blessing, and it's a perversion. And it becomes the gospel of both. gospel about a different version of the blessing a different Jesus, a community based on success.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's number crunching everything is number crunching, you know, large churches and that you have meetings, you have the gatherings or, you know, weekly meetings, and it's all roadmapping. It's all what have we done? What are we going to do? How are we going to bring people in what what they doing mimicking other ministries across the pond in other areas, rather than following the early church? What was the early church?
Simon Pinchbeck:It was just a couple of people
Reverend Ben Cooper:said they sold everything. They they was together, they sold everything. They went out and they preached Jesus Christ. But the church has done the opposite as an Large houses, how many? How many celebrities have we got in the church ministers and are dripping in cash?
Simon Pinchbeck:That brings me on to this the next point, you know, you know, a little bit and you know, I'll probably speak on a good year this year. Yeah, it was just I see. A good you know, I probably speak you know, 40 50 times a year. everywhere all over the world. Yeah. But people are saying you need to raise your profile. To me, you need to raise your profile mean Instagram. Yeah, in books, you need to start doing this. But whose profile shooping Jesus, we should be raising the profile of Jesus Christ, he ain't about us. You It doesn't matter. Wherever you speak to 200 people or one one
Reverend Ben Cooper:for someone in Asda
Simon Pinchbeck:someone in Akdi. And I think that's where the door is bringing it back to just the one on one thing, but the church once mess it what and what happens with that all of a sudden, you become you don't
Reverend Ben Cooper:become a member of
Simon Pinchbeck:a church that you become a CEO of a corporation. Oh, I
Reverend Ben Cooper:say yeah, you don't you become you become a businessman or businessman. You're You're you've got the business model. And that's what's driven the business model. We know that there are lots of churches out there, planting churches out there, simply because the Mother Church is a successful church, and it's got money. You can go and plant a church, you can hire any hole out, you can take your finest guitars, your finest instruments when you've got money, but go and plant a church with nothing but nothing with nothing. With no checkbook with no backing of anyone to no backup team, no roadmap in planning, you know anyone can go into any area with 80 grand budget of 100 grand because that's what we know that goes on. And right we're going to go and plant the church over there. We're going higher the hole we're going higher the score, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. We'll buy this we'll buy that but go and plant a church in faith.
Simon Pinchbeck:And you know, something been you know think that's what God's doing now, I think God is raising up men and women who turn their back and all this stuff. Yeah. And and then unprovoked that they're not perverted by the worries and the drawers of the flesh. They just want to live in a spirit because enough they've seen the Yeah, this hollows shallow,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the church's material amaizing gospel the church worship in the church worships idols. It worships money. We want find seats, we want good underlay on the carpet you're
Simon Pinchbeck:saying exactly what I said there. It's idolatry. It's I don't say and there's a nikka sinner but there's sin with that as an equity with that because you're drawn or that draws you away from the cross. Yeah, so you've only got to be one degree out
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, I've been there and I understood that and and I have put so much effort time for money into a building into the building into the building into the building rather than to people but at the beginning a lockdown I realized that the building is dead
Simon Pinchbeck:I've got a I've got to say in our bed a building is empty we've we've we meet regularly met regularly. Yeah you know the start the lockdown Yeah. And I saw you right at the start of the lockdown and there's a definite change in in you since the start a lot down I've got to say there's a lot of tiny shops for Shark Tank. The teeth whitening has gone a little bit bigger as well. But gone squeezing them skinny jeans like you could know but I've not been seriously there's a piece about you now. Yes it is a more of a piece about you before I was for you is running around chasing each other. Now you're running around you're still as busy as ever but
Reverend Ben Cooper:as I've ever been
Simon Pinchbeck:there's there's a piece about you that I hadn't seen for a long time because I was so frustrated
Reverend Ben Cooper:with religion and church and the pattern that I was molded into that I was brought up in that I was shocked I was shaped by religion course I love God course I love the word that's my but still religion at its hand on me it had its hold on me. So it was all about the building. The building has got to be this the bone has got to be that you got to follow this you got to follow that the chairs got to be right. You know the pattern the church makes you fail religion
Simon Pinchbeck:is a pattern of The world is a pattern of the world. And so a relationship is a pattern always where God wants you to be. And I think he's gone to you a bed. You know, this is my church.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. I just realized when the when lockdown came, I laid in the hole of this church in, in the boy crying. But then I realized, it's not the building. It's not a building. It's not the building, forget the building. And I've forgotten about the building. I've literally forgotten about building
Simon Pinchbeck:we're using the building for what
Reverend Ben Cooper:it should be used for.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, we're getting messages out. You're using, you're getting our 1000 people you're coming
Reverend Ben Cooper:through the doors feed in for the foot boxes. So much going on. That is church. But my focus because it was the way I was shaped and molded. Now this is not to say that I didn't love got a toy. It's not that's not what this is about. But you get in a in a mindset of the building has to be perfect. Yeah, the building has got to look a certain way. You've got to have this you've got to have that. And what that does that takes pastors and leaders attention away from the people. Yeah, yeah. And the mission. Because we're focused on this, that this that that.
Simon Pinchbeck:So Christ says, Seek first the kingdom.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah, it's actually yeah, or,
Simon Pinchbeck:and is righteous, and everything else will fall into place. All of a sudden, the building becomes the kingdom,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the building. Yeah, it's all about the building.
Simon Pinchbeck:And we can, like I said, we make the theology to justify Exactly. The idolatry. So yeah, so we're saying the leaders are say, Yeah, but we are seeking first the kingdom because this is Kingdom in this place. And we have to get it right now. Yeah, people, the people, the people out of
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is well, wishes,
Simon Pinchbeck:how many of these? It'd be amazing to find out but I've guarantee how many of these mega church leaders are on their face praying to the Lord,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because you get entrenched and you get trapped by money mortgages on the builder here is this we I go along and say, I ain't got time to pray. I'll go raise money.
Simon Pinchbeck:Right? You know, seriously, you ain't got time not the prime
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly. To
Simon Pinchbeck:get all your fights on the floor. Yeah, games, get them. You know, don't stand that like a peacock. Because, you know, you've been taking down your feathers or been you've been plucked out like, yeah, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that. So what grabbed me was really interesting, you're talking about in the building and religion and now you get trapped is in the Old Testament, where, where God came to the end, and he said, he said, your house is looking beautiful, lovely. And my house is a wreck and ruin, you know. So I look to them for God's house has got to be shining like a pin, you gotta be careful. I understand that the building has to be right, and all that sort of stuff that goes with it. And there's certain things that are gonna be done, but you can so easily put the world's Look, this world tastes on the church building when actually, it doesn't matter where I gather
Simon Pinchbeck:now, because they're what they're saying is he has to look this way. Yes. See, where they fallen into this trap. They fall into this trap of the numbers. So all of a sudden, they're they adopted a business
Reverend Ben Cooper:plan. Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:adopt a business plan. Don't lay on these. And the business plan says you have to be this you've got to be this you've got to be looking at this. Yeah. hasn't got a look like a church. You know, let's take you to this savvies big warehouse. Yes. That's unconventional let's do this. That never was God's just saying I don't need all that and I'm not about that. I'm not about about the numbers. I love to see people come to faith but what's the point if they just come in and given me two hours on a on a on a Sunday morning? And they don't even give me that?
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, that's right. What so so all of a sudden we have these drive thru churches. Yeah. Where you drive up? What do you want this morning, sir? Oh, yeah. I like to be a lot to be met by someone in a in a bright t shirt telling me how awesome I am.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're awesome. Yeah. You're a great guy. And then I like to be that it's raining. Here's an umbrella. It's an umbrella.
Simon Pinchbeck:I've done a lot, put my arms around, do put on the shoulder. Take me in and fed
Reverend Ben Cooper:you had a great week. We love you brother.
Simon Pinchbeck:I see you in here you're showing in line is not the sun. Go over there. There's croissants and just get you you know have you feel have a nice coffee. Take it in and there's a nice
Reverend Ben Cooper:So sit and relax. Yeah, relax
Simon Pinchbeck:and there's a lovely chair over there. Well, I want to go not too near the front and get me somewhere near the door. So Oh yeah, no no problem, sir. Oh, and don't don't sing them songs about the blood and in Christ alone I don't know where that's the blood test some some sort of real good old worship music from Hillsong or bevel I want to hear that smoke good it's gonna make me feel good just so I can bounce along to the river. I want to see a worship leader in skinny jeans who buns comes out and says how you feeling today? Everyone you're awesome great.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're right. You can do it.
Simon Pinchbeck:You could you can do it. You're listening. That's what I want.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that's what I want to give you that it's raining today love it we're gonna get out of the car that Murray Welcome to church we've got an umbrella to surround Come Come in Come in and on the way in there's a Gift Aid formula. Isn't that another book from Pastor there's another. There's 101 ways to do this and come on. Welcome to church you know, we've broken your back
Simon Pinchbeck:who's discovered this great new scheme out it's called the four R's what we're going to get into just around the corner, the little church in Swanley.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Roof hanging off rain coming through rain coming through.
Simon Pinchbeck:But it's a pastor they're telling you to come across pastor they're saying turn away from you. So yeah. Follow Jesus is a true Jew. Yeah, that's
Reverend Ben Cooper:right. Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:there's a pastor there turn telling you to, to embrace and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ Jesus saying you can get rid of all sins, but you've got a sin. Yeah, before you can fully repent. You can't live with it. You don't come in with the same crap that you all walk out. Well,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:that's right. You come in, you can't get rid of that stuff. And you go out. Yeah. And then you start, you started to embrace people, you sort of come in and tell us what you've done during the week. How you gonna go?
Reverend Ben Cooper:cotton wool, Christianity, Amway. We've wrapped people up, we've wrapped You know, I'm not talking about you, but I'm talking about as a leader, we wrap we wrap people in cotton wall and make people comfortable, you know, coffee, croissants, you know, I mean, all this, all that, you know, really and just wrap people up in, in in just another blanket what the world has given him. Actually, I want to be unwrapped, I want I want to be unwrapped, I want to be stripped back.
Simon Pinchbeck:And right now, I think we see it that way. We see it Yeah. online where people are laughing, joking. They're talking about anything but the cross they talk about anything. But but the repentance and the healing power and unforgiveness, herring
Reverend Ben Cooper:and damage
Simon Pinchbeck:is the target of anything that but we have a harvest out there of people that are hungry for Jesus, they want to know they want something different. You said it time and time again. People want something different they don't want more to assign
Reverend Ben Cooper:each we're talking about the church and and you know that the church, let's go to the church that has been banging the drum about healing for years and years and years, God is healing and God is doing it's got it doing that when the prosperity gospel and the flag wavers and the ones that are doing the ken cannon, all that sort of stuff and coming in and rollers case, right now, I know we've said this before, but we need to look at this really carefully. Now. We heard about healing on the streets, you know, pull up a chair and God's going to heal you and all that and all that sort of stuff. As soon as the pandemic come in all these healing rooms, these prayer rooms ceased. Yeah, right. We've got a virus I know the virus is that I know that I work with it. I fully understand what it is. In another world that I work, I get that I clearly get that. But what I'm struggling with is the church that has been pressing out that God is going to heal you. God is going to cure your cancer, God is going to cure your heart disease, God is going to your leg is growing, your arm is growing. You can see you don't need glasses, you know, your your organs are being renewed. God's telling me now that there's someone in this this auditorium in in in this show what I should say now in the show someone God's telling me now that there's someone who could have no lungs that cancer has fallen off that heart disease is gone. You're healed of diabeetus your back is healed. You know, God's renewed your disk in your back and then suddenly, we've got a virus. Yeah, that has come along and closed. The healing rooms closed. The places that was healing, these massive big hitters cancer, heart disease, all the stuff people popping out of wheelchairs, frying crutches away all that sort of stuff. But now look out across the plane of church. Where's the healing on the streets? is silence in at the moment isn't there?
Simon Pinchbeck:Because these this stuff?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Was it real?
Simon Pinchbeck:Was it true wherever it not? Where did it come from? Where
Reverend Ben Cooper:did it come from? What
Simon Pinchbeck:spirit? Was it that was driving?
Reverend Ben Cooper:It wasn't religious? Was it the Kundalini spirit bent on in stock?
Simon Pinchbeck:There's a lot that is. And there's been a lot of that. And thank goodness, you know, I say, thank goodness, it has been shut down. Because
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's dangerous is
Simon Pinchbeck:that if you're coming to faith on the back of them of a so called miraculous sign, without the fundamental,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes,
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah. faith in Jesus, our relationship with Jesus, look, look, we all know the alien takes place we all know but
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've seen one healing in my life. But you know what? silent as a young lad, my mom got seriously ill. And I watched her go through the most horrific things in her body. She was a strong believer. She prayed. She was a prayer warrior. You know what, I watched her die in Darent Valley Hospital. She believed in healing she but I'm telling you now. Right. And I watched her lay on on on the bed. And the last three words that she said when she left this earth was Jesus, Jesus. And then as soon as you said that, blood ran out of area.
Simon Pinchbeck:Oh, wow.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right. So what I'm trying to say is, we have to be so careful. I'm reason I'm saying this is because there are many believers out there feel guilty, because they're not healed. They're still in a wheelchair, they still have got elements on their bodies, but they're here in this other gospel, that there are hundreds being healed of this disease, that disease. And it makes people that look at themselves and go. I'm such a simple person. The Sorry, wrong way. God doesn't want to heal me. God doesn't love me. Yeah, yeah. And so it's been dangerous,
Simon Pinchbeck:and full of unbelief. Because what, what I will say is that, yeah, if you're not healed, there's something you're not saved. You're not all yours. unbelief.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There's unbelief. Oh, there's
Simon Pinchbeck:enough faith,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you ain't got enough faith. Now, my mom, I can clearly say this. had more faith than I've ever seen in anyone. But she didn't get healed. No, she never gave up. And she did not allow that false gospel to affect her. Yeah. Because she had a true relationship with Jesus. So when we're talking about the church,
Simon Pinchbeck:Ben is the deal. If this stuff was real, if this stuff had foundations if this stuff, and yet it was still they don't be heading in a doors open, yeah. And people will be flocking there and people would be would be, you know, getting properly healed. But sadly, for them to shut the doors very quickly. Yeah. And for their own people now to be getting, Ellen.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's been a show
Simon Pinchbeck:shows you shows you where it is, and the church has been performing. It's been it's been it is a performance. And the thing is, we live in a microwave society so so that we want instant, we want instant instant photos,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we want it now we don't want to start a journey.
Simon Pinchbeck:So people go come to this place. And you know, you'll get a old venue get five and then it's sort of a backwards way of going about it. I know. I know of people that have been miraculously here, and then I do and then I've gone on with the Lord. So there are many
Reverend Ben Cooper:miracles happen. But but the showmanship, the showmanship,
Simon Pinchbeck:in it all We end up we end up with people like Benny Hinn, who again, has been proven to be fake, you know, the whole thing has been proven to be to be a fake ministry.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And then that we need to be careful how that affects us as well. Because we've been caught in in this fake world of church that exists very strongly. And then when you don't get the prosperity when you've heard that person has had their mortgage paid off when you've heard that person has been slipped two grand and and you're struggling to put bread on the table. It's the same again so you got the prosperity gospel you got.
Simon Pinchbeck:You got to be very careful because you know, you could fall into darkness.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:but here we are, you know yours. You know, in times past. It was the Pharisees. They were very legal one night. Gosh, yeah, they were legal and they were religious. But now there was a church into now it's into materialism, it becomes one with the world, ya know. And so we're looking people are looking for that instant helium, they're looking for prophetic you're looking at, they're looking for someone to say, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. And, you know, I'll
Reverend Ben Cooper:come to church,
Simon Pinchbeck:welcome to
Reverend Ben Cooper:your great,
Simon Pinchbeck:you're fantastic.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're fantastic Simon. And I've heard a list where have you
Simon Pinchbeck:so called prophets have gone into churches and say, and say, you're going to give me 500 pounds. The Lord says, You've got to give me a check for 500 pounds, and people are writing these stuff out. God wants to get rid of that stuff.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And you hear that? Yeah, I've heard it's quite a lot for good sources that people have got in debt to give to certain ministries, they've lost their hunger,
Simon Pinchbeck:because why? because they think they're gonna get super blessed, super blessed.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you got to be careful in your way that way, way. The, the fake preachers and teachers are using it for their own gain. So you've only got a look at the lifestyle of the leader of that church. What How big is their house? How big is their salary? Would you do what you do for nothing? No, there's
Simon Pinchbeck:the thing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's the question. Yeah. That's the question, would you would you lead this church? Would you lead this church and get no wages from the church and go and get another job to put bread and to pay your rent? Would you do that?
Simon Pinchbeck:A lot of people wouldn't, because for a lot of people, it is a job.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's a job.
Simon Pinchbeck:There's no there's no corner calling is a job. It's a job. And if you're in certain denominations, it comes to a nice house.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Spy pen house, car.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, you've got a lot you've got
Reverend Ben Cooper:a lot you've got you've
Simon Pinchbeck:got an all you got to do really is, you know, you don't have to do much these days.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But in all seriousness, when you look at it, you've got you've got to write you've got to go back to what we what we talked about a lot. We talked about David Young David, these brothers, when it was anointed day. You know, he called the brothers in dinner that was all coming in line. They look good. I yeah, that was big, tall, and all that sort of stuff. But you've got to be chosen for God to do the task. The task was chosen Otherwise, the church chooses the ministers, the church you chooses, and even the ministers choose themselves, the ministers make their own titles up.
Simon Pinchbeck:Oh, yeah, totally. And then though, they'll choose from what happens it gets a bit incestuous if you like, because they choose from that, and what was in and what's happened with that is that they're choosing people after their own harm about the men look at that. Yeah, probably. They're choosing people that will really be my as maybe as good as them with that, oh, maybe they still want the spotlight. I
Reverend Ben Cooper:can't have anyone that is on my team if they are better than me because I want to be fairer, or disagree with me. You can't disagree with me because this is my church.
Simon Pinchbeck:So then we've got the way there's such a fine line, there's a bit of there's a massive fine line and and don't get me wrong, sometimes these guys start out, you know, with the right intention, but But suddenly, the too much
Reverend Ben Cooper:backstroking
Simon Pinchbeck:and, and no one's saying no to you, and everyone's saying yes to you,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and you're not being
Simon Pinchbeck:and people go, what did that guy say? No, no, no, we're not chasing after a word. Whoo. What does the Bible say? What does the Bible scriptures say?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, no, no, no, I want to know what he said. I've made more mistakes in ministry than I've ever done anything but I've learned and I've got it right by a longshot. I'm, I'm learning on the go, you know, I'm
Simon Pinchbeck:just done. Call me. God. He's raising he's done a new thing in you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think he might. He might call me past the chancellor. Chancellor, but I'm gonna strike it right one day. My life is chaotic. My life is barmy. My life is complicated, complex, every area of my life thinking I'm learning to lean on him. Yeah. Because I'm learning to lean over the month so over the time, you know that Jesus tenure
Simon Pinchbeck:because the World Energy you got a hunger for Jesus spin
Reverend Ben Cooper:and the denomination don't work. I love Elim. Get that but it's not no longer my God. Jesus, but I follow Jesus, I still fall but make this we still
Simon Pinchbeck:slip we know there's no safety outside of the shield of Jesus, Jesus and you go with you. That's why a lot of these places that God's just set up, I've had enough and what will happen? And you will see this more and more. He won't stop him. He won't take you away not but he raised up a new men and women that are hungry, so hungry for him. And that old way, though, that will come into the Oneworld church, they'll just
Reverend Ben Cooper:drifting. And they'll all be blended in with blended politics, politics, it'll be it you can see it now. It's like, it's like the snake has wrapped itself around as an end,
Simon Pinchbeck:there'll be compromised, there'll be there's compromise already with sex marriage. Abortion is compromised with other stuff
Reverend Ben Cooper:in every area.
Simon Pinchbeck:in every area. The Pope has okayed the vaccine that that's come from aborted fetuses, all that sort of stuff. So it'll be that one world religion and now go off down that way. But the Lord's raising up a new thing with men. What see. There's only one man that stands before to fall on Jesus. And that's Jesus Christ in it. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, yeah. And we've got to remember, it's great to have a lovely building. It's great to offer nice hospitality. It's great to have all that stuff. But what we cannot do is making it the God. And that's what happened. If you're blessed for the process, and you got a beautiful building and your mortgage free in your deck.
Simon Pinchbeck:The Lord wants to bless you bring it on. We want it we'd love to accept.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's topsy turvy. It's upside down, isn't it?
Simon Pinchbeck:Because it's an upside down kingdom.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And so it's great, you know, it's quite a lovely building that can facilitate everything is going on. But what is the cost of that building?
Simon Pinchbeck:We have just come out Christmas, you know, the great Christian celebrations.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, Jesus. Yeah. The King of kings. Yeah, Lord. I meant to sit
Simon Pinchbeck:down he didn't come into a palace. Thank you. Jesus. No, didn't come into a palace. No, he would come into a stable. He come into and he was born in a in a manger with the wood cows. He You know, this right? Yeah, that's where he came. He stooped down so low. And the people that saw him were lowly shepherds,
Reverend Ben Cooper:isn't it in the interest that you watched all these than activities that used to happen? Yeah, this shows one night, it was just to show the Nativity was the, you know, you go to Wembley Hill songs and all that. It'd be like watching a performance and all that sort
Simon Pinchbeck:of stuff. 100% right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You got high in good money.
Simon Pinchbeck:You there was 20,000 people in the two. Yeah. It was songs thing. Nothing about
Reverend Ben Cooper:about performance. It's just an appointment.
Simon Pinchbeck:And it's not only an act, it's, there's pagan idolatry and imagery, as well look at it for triangles they all see and all that sort of stuff, the Queen above and all that sort of stuff. He's in the middle of all that. God said never enough.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Is it?
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, go on. Let them go on. I've got enough. I want my blessing. Remember the blessing Lord,
Reverend Ben Cooper:come along. We want the blessing again The Lord
Simon Pinchbeck:bless you and keep you the Lord make your space shine upon and be gracious to the Lord lift up his carrots on you and give you peace. There's none of that in that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There is none of that showmanship. Its theatrical performances. see God.
Simon Pinchbeck:So you you come out on air. And you you run and it might be on an emotional high
Reverend Ben Cooper:adrenaline drive, but
Simon Pinchbeck:not a spiritual high. When you're spiritually drizzle spiritual drought in that stuff
Reverend Ben Cooper:that the UK is it's spiritual dryness that is ever been in its life. The UK is so thin spiritually. The UK so far so far. removed. What does the scripture say? It says, it says repent of your wicked ways. Yeah. Um, come back to me.
Simon Pinchbeck:And I think Yes, he does it. So come back to me back to me. And I think there's an opportunity now
Reverend Ben Cooper:children is humble themselves.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. I think there's opportunity now for there's a window to come back. I think there's so spiritually dry. I think there's a hunger for those that want that and he said the opposite of poverty and what does what he's saying is equally he says he will turn that heart stone in our flesh.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. I think also Simon, what's happened this has been happening for such a long time. There have been many people in churches that have been in these, these big organizations that haven't felt comfortable can't really engage what's going on, because they're spiritually hungry but haven't realized the spiritual hunger. Because the church hasn't been pushing the spiritual driver I said there's a there's a battle and people have been going there saying wrong with me because I can't connect to what they're doing.
Simon Pinchbeck:That's a great point. And I think if you're listening to this out there, wherever you are and you're you've been in a church and you just not feel restless you feel restless not feel comfortable when your fingers something wrong with me. I've got it. They've got it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Why do they jump in and dance? I
Simon Pinchbeck:guess I don't get this singing and barking like, I don't get this black wire, don't get any
Reverend Ben Cooper:gay. I can't get it. But
Simon Pinchbeck:I'm still it's because my friend, you're in a right place. You're in a good place. You know, God, your God is opened your eyes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And I think this has been happening a long time, a long time, in a long time where there have been men and women in congregations and even in leadership teams that have sat under leadership and thinking and sitting in these big organize ational churches and in the system of church thinking. I actually can't get what's going on here. But I'm going along with it. Because along to get along. Yeah, actually, I'm restless Mr. spiritless. Yeah, I got no peace, but I'm going along with it. And that's where we that's where we are. That's where we've been. But now God is going the Blackboard is what the church is trying to open and trying to get back to the old Sunday mornings when churches every day, churches every moment, the people are Jesus says I am the head of the chat.
Simon Pinchbeck:But I've been there I've been there in ministries where I've tried to fit it yet. But felt restless. I've been in churches where I've tried to fit into verses that's why we started almost
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, totally because you haven't conformed to the pattern of the world or just
Simon Pinchbeck:you know looked upon as
Reverend Ben Cooper:a loose cannon
Simon Pinchbeck:as loose a loose cannon. Yeah, because yeah, you know you you because actually shoot with Jesus Christ. And you know, you've got a love of the Father that's so strong. Yeah, but you're not willing to do this go out onto the street and do that. It's just not what you're you're not willing to willing to do this. I'm not willing to wear a dodgy t shirt on on a Sunday morning to greet someone as they come in. Now, I'm not willing to do any of that. I'd rather just, you know, Praise the Lord. I'd rather just sneak in a bank.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Going to church I want to sit in in now I want to hear from God. I want to hear fruit a word for the message for the worship, that God is going to help me and set me free there is a hope there is a way forward. I want to repent I need to actually tell that must be private and not be judged.
Simon Pinchbeck:I want to come
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's difficult to get in
Simon Pinchbeck:on it but because I went into one church or a member and just going just a little bit early just to just to contemplate that we could bring things that Lord knows that man a man's you know, and and then all of a sudden had his arm come around me. You right Bravo. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, you know, good intentions. But yeah, just might just leave me alone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I just did worse thing.
Simon Pinchbeck:I just want to, you know, God is probably a garlic the night before and yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Jesus loves us, Brazil, right? I know. I know. He loves me
Simon Pinchbeck:and you and because let me tell you this. Let me tell you, this isn't important. But you gotta be careful who prays for you? Or be careful. He prays for you? Definitely. And, you know, if if, if the Lord's and, and be very careful of people who come up to you and go, Oh, the Lord's give me this word for you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I got word for you. Well, that word. Our Farrago is different to that word from that person very conflict. In a minute, then you get a text the Lord's told me to tell you this. So you got free words within a space of X amount of hours, days, weeks. And now are you What? Why do I follow a minute? I'll go find
Simon Pinchbeck:the word. We've said it then we've been
Reverend Ben Cooper:don't look for a word, get into the word. In other word,
Simon Pinchbeck:get into the word. And if you're in a relationship with Jesus Christ, then you'll listen to the voice of the Lord and you'll understand it. And you'll hear it. And if someone kindly comes up to you and says, I've got this word for you. You asked to be confirmed and that has been confirmed through Scripture. It has to be confirmed, discussed over time over time. Because there you know, there are 1000 men sitting there saying God gave me this word. Yeah, I know. And here's the thing. We have a friend, don't we? And if I was to believe everything that this guy had said to me, I'd be a millionaire by now. By now, because it was so much money,
Reverend Ben Cooper:money so much money. Yes. Goodness gracious me.
Simon Pinchbeck:But well I know we wouldn't be sitting,
Reverend Ben Cooper:still scratching around for a tenner.
Simon Pinchbeck:But but praise the Lord. You know God wants to he's gonna do a new thing he is doing I can see in you you there's a new thing happening. Yeah, you know I'm excited
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a great time to be alive It really is. You know what we love the church, we were really big date we're really in it we pull it a pieces by has to be pulled a piece it is great weather great building is great. I love all that visual stuff. But if it's above Jesus, there is a problem. Oh, that's the thing. That's what we're trying to say. Because it becomes idolatry becomes a God
Simon Pinchbeck:becomes a god.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And the greatest thing that any leader any one of us can do. Just follow Jesus and let him build the church. Oh, man, he's the church. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:He said, he said, my five year plan for this church,
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:So you follow him?
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know what? God is doing a new thing. He's doing a new thing, Ben, and that new thing is that we haven't got a clue what that thing is. Because His ways are higher than our wage, his thoughts are bigger and greater than our thoughts. So what are you trying to say for this thing? What I'm saying is and what we are saying is live by faith.
Simon Pinchbeck:And what does that mean? And we'll examine that in another podcast. But right now what that means is follow Jesus fall behind. Don't step to the right, don't step under the covering. What did he say to Joshua, be strong are very courageous.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know what? I tell him, I meet him upstairs.
Simon Pinchbeck:He says, Don't do not look to the left and to the right. Keep straight ahead. Follow Jesus. And it may be that you're in a holding pattern. It may be you ain't moving. It may be you seeing if you look down, you'll see this guy doing this this No, don't you? Don't copy, copy? Do he's doing a review.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:I own a thing with you. I also
Reverend Ben Cooper:believe Simon, that the church is facing the biggest challenge is ever faced in its life. I believe that we've come through to river Jordan. I believe God has partnered and got us through but what happened when they come? And they got to the other side of the river Jordan, what was in front of them? Jericho? Jericho. Yeah. That's what's in front of the church now. Now what is the Jericho that the church faces is the law of the land the law. So the law is being written to squash Christianity out of everything totally.
Simon Pinchbeck:solely, because it is that is a deal thing. That Jericho
Reverend Ben Cooper:is enormous,
Simon Pinchbeck:you know, you can go to you can still go to Asda, you could still go to tescos. Yeah. And you still move around. Yeah. And be a couple of 100 people in there. Yeah. But you can't meet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can't meet in church, I can only have X amount I can because it's building a Mikey for fire eggs and all this. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:Don't want God anywhere near there, the Antichrist and new global plan,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because Scripture tells us, the Antichrist has always and will, up to the battle of Armageddon will do anything to stop and to try to stop I should say, got moving, but nothing can stop the seed.
Simon Pinchbeck:The faithful. Yeah, try and stop the faithful. And people will fall off, they'll fall off here the fall of the Yeah, but God as got a remnant. And we're saying to you out there, as we say when we're talking about a real man for Christ. If you're out there, and you feel uncomfortable, if you feel that you don't fit in this case where the church is get you in a good human being and reach out, reach out to where we are, because we'll put you in touch with two or three other people who are the same thing. And that's what church is. Yes, it's little churches, little groups of people all over little fires all over the country.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's exactly as Joshua and Caleb was, just too. We're able. Were able because our God is able. But there are too many in the world of the church bringing a bad report in a bad report and it's dressed in a different fact, man,
Simon Pinchbeck:the Bible says it's an evil report. It is Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's a report. Yeah, the Bible
Simon Pinchbeck:says it's, it's a sinful evil report. And what happened was, none of those people know those unbelieving people. The Bible tells us ever, ever, ever reached our God our Muslim did die when you
Reverend Ben Cooper:The more you think about this, the more it actually keeps me quiet and probably a lot of people thinking praise God for Came quiet for a while, but actually realizing that the church that I'm talking about the real Church of Jesus Christ is quite small.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's small, real small but but the mega church Yeah, church is huge, but
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's huge. The world we have we have material church.
Simon Pinchbeck:I mean, our local oh nine I mean a big deal that we have the baffles we have the hills, some everywhere we have. We have the elevation worship, all that sort of stuff, the singing that they all want to trust us. That's the world when you know the world. Yes, the real church is small and big. cannot
Reverend Ben Cooper:identify should say this. But when you look at all that stuff that you're talking about, is this for a different podcast? We'll call it we'll call it quits on our thing. Sure, not, because I feel this is a deeper subject that we need to explore. And I don't think time is going to do that. But when you look at all that what you're looking at as soon as you start mentioning them names, I see. I see makeup, I see smooth characters I see. really handsome men, beautiful looking women do not make it. What I'm trying to say is that there they are manufactured, is mass manufactured. And then if you look at what did Jesus say said going to the highways and the byways. What will you find in the highways and the byways, you'll find those caught on crack cocaine, you'll find those caught on marijuana, you'll find those caught in porn in human trafficking. Well, if you were to spin around the congregation, what type of person do you see in in congregations? The same as it's the front?
Simon Pinchbeck:You're right, you're exactly we can discuss it. As churches are supposed to be hospitals for the sick. They are supposed to be museums for the grand and trendy. And that's what they've been come and they've become oldest about. Yeah, so very frightening. Well, we've got it. And they get you get attracted by all that stuff. We will talk about things a good subject to talk about, but the real the real church, the people that that that follow Jesus Christ, the people that are that are broken or broken, or lost or lost crying and the people in these ashamed the people God is pulling people out of these stablished church. Yeah. Because those young men and older men and women out there that just don't feel right in these places and go, I can't have it anymore. I can't do. This is not what my bible tells me. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm wrestling. I'm wrestling with a wrestle for so many years of people in congregation I don't care most churches.
Simon Pinchbeck:But I care about a cross I care about saving yapple I care about salvation. I care about putting the message out there it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:got to be Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's got to be Jesus I've been I'm coming before him and saying ain't about me and you you won't hear the names of these people.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They won't be loaded
Simon Pinchbeck:out you want to big night but they'll be there they're doing the finger knees knees That's right. And they clapping in heaven my
Reverend Ben Cooper:people Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:well they're not Christian celebrities now I see it we see it more we see these celebrities are gathering together
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, you can see it's like God shining a light on it. Yeah. And you're starting to go hang on a minute. Wow, this is so far from where's where's where's Jesus? You know, Simon What a great conversation today to be raw this is this is raw This is real. This is not this is not scripted this this is just how we feel. God is leading us in this time to talk about real subjects in a real time in the real world.
Simon Pinchbeck:And Ben I think join us lockdown is opened our eyes nice it's open my eyes and read to a total realization Don't forget you know for years I've been traveling around the world yeah no given given yet. Well, I called my story, my story and suddenly this massive realization that this ain't my story, but in that season Yeah, and that's the message want to bring up the saying about church and about building and what we're doing it's about your relationship with Jesus Christ it's about coming across it's about repenting since stuff that's wrong in your life is about getting right we've got a walking for a mace about looking for for like minded people. Yeah, around you. Yeah. And as we draw into a close today, but
Reverend Ben Cooper:she can we just finish off with that? Yes. And you finish this off my friend.
Simon Pinchbeck:I just want to finish the look to anyone. out there who's, who's feeling a little bit, lost his Finn little bit like, like churches, not for them or whatever was saying, God hasn't passed you by practice doing a new thing. He's thinking in your life. Yeah. And he wants to say this to you today. He wants to say this. He wants this blessing to be on you a day. And it's a blessing I'll read it again is the Lord spoke to Moses saying, speak to Aaron and his sons saying, this is the way you should bless the children of Israel. And this is the way the Lord wants to bless you. The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face to shine upon you. and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace for the next year and forever in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Simon. Price got final word. Wow is hope isn't there and Jesus, man is it's everything. Jesus everything in Jesus song. Oh my god bless you know you have a great rest of your family and your wife back down here
Simon Pinchbeck:for the party. Ben, how
Reverend Ben Cooper:are you tonight? ticket? Number 10. Boris. Boris, you are welcome. Come on, bring a vaccine in this one. We love
Simon Pinchbeck:the facts.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:Bring out the ammunition.
Reverend Ben Cooper:God bless. God bless. Man, we would never want their job. Who'd won their job? Do you know what
Simon Pinchbeck:could we do a better job.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now, one bad thing about falls late in the nation. Follow Jesus. And the Prime Minister he's gonna give a big message on Christmas Day. Follow Jesus. And we sat down with Kevin load. We love to go oh my god bless the government wherever they are the politicians we as we close right now you've been listening to Simon and myself in Eden church, you know, the power our chain and getting into scripture and just just being real. As we always say, this is raw. This is not edited. This is not scripted. This is just real life. Real life. You know, we're not free to talk about our failings, our weaknesses, you know, and that it makes me feel better. So wherever you are around the world, just be real. Just be real. Just be real. Just be real Simon. And
Simon Pinchbeck:if you're in somewhere that's not that you'd be real, then it's time to think about moving on. He's exactly
Reverend Ben Cooper:right. Thank you very much. And Stratford you have a safe trip back Simon. You know, and I'll see you tonight.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. See you tonight. I love being rubber ring women.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So good. You've been listening to us here at Elim church in the Power Hour. Swanley. Please share. Please listen to all the podcasts and all the stuff that we do. We are just really seeking Christ in such a crisis. And we will learn in so many different things here. And we thank God for your life wherever you are around the world. My god bless you and strengthen you and we'll catch you very very soon. God bless Amen.