Well, good morning. Welcome. Thank you for joining us here at Elim church in Swanley as you listened to our podcast and we just gone live as well on social media. So good morning to all those that are listening wherever you are around the world. You're joining myself right from Benjamin and Cooper and we have our good friend with us today, Simon Pinchbeck. And he's come all the way from understand the f6 key forgetting where you come from. I know it's so
Simon Pinchbeck:far been releasing when you think about it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's not that far is it? Casa cat liquid fruit, a ton of
Simon Pinchbeck:dodge the the arrows and the bullets coming?
Reverend Ben Cooper:We love swanley. The Swanley is a great place my friend. Simon. We just welcome you're here. You know, it's great to be back and we gather so much time together, don't we recording podcast and other little things that we got bubbling in the world of the kingdom of God. You can listen to us wherever you are on buzzsprout, Spotify. Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa cafe. You say that in your house. Alexa, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube. And also as you join us for this power hour. You can catch Simon on Ruhlman for Christ.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, that's right. Yeah. What? What you can't do is come to the church and watch his life because, you know, we're not allowed to do that. You
Reverend Ben Cooper:shouldn't do that. Yeah. But we got a date in mind. And once the blonde dead IKEA worker says go. We're out. We're jumping up.
Simon Pinchbeck:We're white because EasyJet tickets and Orion. Wait, yeah, jab and
Reverend Ben Cooper:jab and go. You can't come in. Not come in. Yeah, just say yeah, I'll tell you what, we're gonna get in trouble with that. I can feel it. But as we record this podcast, yes. Come on. What are we talking about? What we got
Simon Pinchbeck:to tell you what happened this week when I was in the daily reading? Got it? Yeah. I read the Bible in the year, you know, in the Bible,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you got a Bible.
Simon Pinchbeck:You know, put you in touch with someone. But yeah, so in the daily region in the Old Testament is takes us into Exodus and they're talking about the golden calf. Moses went out there. Yeah. And then I thought, well, that's Yeah, into it. But it's a story that we've heard. And I guess if you even if you're not a Christian, you you you know that story then the other bet the golden Yeah, you know, yeah. And then I was sitting to doing a bit of training, listening to David Wilkerson, do a sermon and he did a sermon on the golden calf. hour. Okay. Hold on. There's something going on. I want to see didn't went go and see. But I spoke to a mate of mine in a in a large church in Essex. And yeah, he said something to me and your LinkedIn together. So I thought, well, that's a great subject to introduce to the podcast today, and and so we just quickly go over that story. The gold Okay, what, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:what is it all about? What's
Simon Pinchbeck:it all about?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What is it all about? You know what, when you're talking about that I, I straightaway, I think of King Nebuchadnezzar and he made a golden idol didn't he? Six cubits is six cubits wide. And what I found interesting there, he says three times, I believe in Daniel, chapter three, he says, something really important. He says, it's been set up, right? So it has to be set up set up by men. So what I'm trying to say is, at the moment, there's a big setup going, going on, there's golden idols, golden calf being set up, as a lot of idolatrous worship going on within the church. within the church, there's a lot of occultism going on, and that so this is not unusual to see this, but it's very hidden at the moment. We have hidden the golden calf, and we've almost put chocolate over it. We've disguised it well,
Simon Pinchbeck:and people don't realize, yeah, people don't realize and it's hidden. I think we'll come on to that. Really, because it's a it's a great, such a great link into what we're doing on what you were talking about. And the thing is the golden calf really,
Reverend Ben Cooper:what does it symbolize?
Simon Pinchbeck:It just symbolizes life in the flesh that symbolizes we want to live. And because this thing can go anywhere, it can it can see it can't
Reverend Ben Cooper:be moved around. It's so it has to be moved by humans. And it's been created by humans. How is it a form of a God, but it's a SS? It's a symbol. It's a symbol
Simon Pinchbeck:to allow you to do whatever you want to do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's that's the that's the that's the
Simon Pinchbeck:key. So here we have Moses, and he's let them out that they've seen miracle after miracle with
Reverend Ben Cooper:amazing things been done.
Simon Pinchbeck:And he's gone up the map the map And he's taken Joshua within the Joshua's staying on a certain level Yeah. And he's gone up and he's met God face to face and God is is written the commandments on the on the tablets that has been carved out on the iPads
Reverend Ben Cooper:tablets. Oh, sorry. I forgot that stone didn't know Yeah, the Ark of the Covenant nice
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah and when it comes down
Reverend Ben Cooper:what they doing
Simon Pinchbeck:what I'm doing now How did that happen so
Reverend Ben Cooper:so this is get some form of a picture Joshua exposition yeah he wants to stay and be in the presence so he goes so far Moses goes up to an East getting clear instruction is having an encounter with the God of Israel yeah the most holiest God that you How can you do? Can you explain this very quickly. So here we have Moses God conversation dialogue instruction come in Moses is getting everything that comes back down. And as he comes further down the mountain to the children of God, the Israelites. What is happening? They've built this idle, they're drunk.
Simon Pinchbeck:How did that come about? So who do you leave in charge?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Was it a young man beginning I
Simon Pinchbeck:he left Aaron in charge. Aaron had been with him and he even William is seen all this Yeah, he's seen what God had done. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:it that's quite interesting, isn't it? Because it's the pull of the flesh driven by sexual desires drunkenness orgies, please in the body, do you but
Simon Pinchbeck:that's what the people are sort of a multitude.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's what they want it. So what how? Why
Simon Pinchbeck:did Aaron Why do you think Aaron said, Okay.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Let's have it give us your earrings? Less. That's less Mel earrings. Give us all your gold. Let's melt it.
Simon Pinchbeck:And he wasn't even a craftsman. Was he? No dad. Loads of craftsmen. Yeah, it said in the Bible. He crafted this golden calf himself.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So what not? four legs a wonder, what do you think?
Simon Pinchbeck:He was a lump. It's just a lump of gold. That's what it was. Yeah. What do you think's going on there? What's the motive for Aaron to give in to the movie shoot,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the pressure of the crowd. The the wanting to be in the crowd? The the side of the flesh that is engaging in that the desires that adrenalin that the fleshly stuff that we all have?
Simon Pinchbeck:What about this? He's been in the shadow of Moses any?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And all of a sudden, he's in charge. He's in charge control.
Simon Pinchbeck:He's got an outer eyes cut an otter, right. Okay, let's do it. He's got the authority. And all of a sudden, he's gone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They're looking at the wrong. Yeah, we'll
Simon Pinchbeck:do it. I'll do it. And they're all looking to them. So no doubt they will probably even chanting his name as he was doing this. But as he was doing it. Ben, where was Caleb? Where was Miriam? Where were the
Reverend Ben Cooper:weather? Where were they? Where were the strong people really interested in
Simon Pinchbeck:all that going on? Well, Matt a saying no, no, this is wrong. Why was he saying that? Because Because here's the deal. When Moses came down, he didn't see him or bow into a knockout. He saw him dancing around drunken naked, naked foreigner kind of doing
Reverend Ben Cooper:everything that you could do. But isn't that interesting how short period of time in a short period of time that Moses was up the mountain getting this instruction getting this clear instruction? The clearest instructions on planet earth of how to be how to live the commandments everything you want. He would think that the people will be down there just like drop dropping, waiting, but they're not they're not interested. They're not interested whatsoever. All they want to do is feed the flesh.
Simon Pinchbeck:That's what the moment is so and Aaron's in charge all in my
Reverend Ben Cooper:desire
Simon Pinchbeck:to skip the priests around him Yeah, the level it's getting around him and got him No, he's not wrong. Yeah, we've got to be fuck
Reverend Ben Cooper:we didn't. He gave he helped. He helped. He engaged gives you earrings. Let's give us your jewelry lead. Come on. Let's let's make this image. And now the story goes on. But it's really interesting how how easy it is. Because we got so many people in the world of the church that that think that I will never tip into any engagement in sin whatsoever. But when you get a multitude and when you get adrenaline when you get certain things happening to your body, how easily led you can be even though that you've been with Moses, even though that you've sinned, miracle after miracle. Drop dropping before your very eyes, how you can be led.
Simon Pinchbeck:And, and because desire, and because there's a multitude now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And just because the crowds doing it
Simon Pinchbeck:so that strong men in the camp,
Reverend Ben Cooper:where are they?
Simon Pinchbeck:What's going on? They've just sort of took the reins in a sentence and going,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll have some of that
Simon Pinchbeck:you carry on. No one's standing up all day where the people standing up and going, No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's wrong. A complete polar opposite of what what's going on the complete opposite to God and Moses up the mountain. And then we have just the children of Israel engaging in in stuff that you that you wouldn't even think that would possibly happen. You know, you think how can how can this be? desires of the flesh? rebellion? Does God really exist?
Simon Pinchbeck:I'll do what I want when I want to do it. And that was the excuse for this golden That's right. Yeah. It's not that we want to worship this lump of gold. No, don't move or That's right. Or can't see or speak or no, we want to be able to do exactly what we want to do. And we are going to do it. And what the flesh craves. Yeah, now is the deal. Before we go on out, we'll go on to our elders relate to get houses. Yeah. Is it to decode when cadet and go? It's just a one off? drop in the ocean? Yeah, it's, you know, we can excuse my people there. You know that Moses was up a mountain to be executed that is that what he said? What did he say when
Reverend Ben Cooper:he called can't serve two gods, you can't get away. You cannot. You cannot, under any circumstances, lift up any other God. You cannot focus you cannot give yourself to idolatrous worship. He says I am a jealous God. You will only serve me and serve me only.
Simon Pinchbeck:So we have we have God. And the Bible tells us is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yeah, so we have a God. He ain't gonna put up with this, man. So what does he do?
Reverend Ben Cooper:You tell me. I'm too frightened to say
Simon Pinchbeck:Moses came down a mountain. He smashed the tablets. He said, What did he say that Moses? He said this divide the camp. It was for me and it was against me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that gives me trouble. I've gotta be honest with you. When you think of that text divide the camp. Whose food for me? It was against me and what we got in the church at the moment? Who's for the word? And who's not for the word. Now? God, is that the same guy? Same.
Simon Pinchbeck:But he's been dressed him up is a lovely Yeah. Yeah, this is the same God has covered
Reverend Ben Cooper:everything. How many times we hear that this day? type or grace, like 2530 years ago? Is it spring out of certain ministries, certain teaching hypergraphs you can almost do anything, you got no consequence, you are a god.
Simon Pinchbeck:But what did God do it instructed, Moses instructed the Luddites to go for at a camp and they killed 3000 people with the sword he also put a plague on, he wasn't happy. This is God, this God, the Father wasn't happy. And he wanted
Reverend Ben Cooper:a plague on them, where we sit now.
Simon Pinchbeck:In a pandemic,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know, when you look at what's happening around the world, and that brings up the question, Is God angry with us? As God fueled what is here to get our attention, because what I see and I'll probably get torn in pieces over this is that the church is still snoring. The churches still disappeared. I can't see any powerful voice coming out and and lifting the sword of the Spirit, shouting the Word of God, there's almost a leaning in to certain areas of culture, and accepting what certain control is happening to us. I do believe that there is a big division in the church. I do believe that there we are going to see a mass exodus. And what I'm starting to see is how small the body of Christ is. So Scott divided the camp, so is God doing what we see back here divided in the camp? Are you for me? Or are you for Lucifer? Yeah, that's it. There's no other way. No other way
Simon Pinchbeck:you as we've said many times, in this in this platform, you can't sit on the fence because you can't the enemy owns the fence. Because the fence, he can't sit on the fence.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So here we have a very good fficult time ahead of us, there is persecution. There is fear at a level that we've never seen before. Now, am I going to run to Jesus? Or am I going to run to science to the world am I going to run to what the world is a friend Am I gonna run to what I see with my naturalized because that's how the Israelites were operating, they was living by their natural light that was living by their perception, their adrenaline in their feelings, they were living by their feelings. So we're not live by feelings, I will engage in earthly desires. When I live by faith, I will engage in what God has for me God's call for you. But there is such a fine line isn't there? Because we see this in this text that we're looking at very clearly, that these are the children of God. He provided everything for them. Their sandals did not wear out, they had food, they had absolutely everything, but they still caved in to the desires of the flesh. How hard is it to be a Christian in this day and age, everything we see on the tv adverts, social media, everything is sexualized. Everything is is drawn to, to your feeling how you feel, there's
Simon Pinchbeck:golden cars everywhere. They're everywhere. It's all about the party
Reverend Ben Cooper:and all about that. It's about
Simon Pinchbeck:and there's about precedent to God, we, you know, we we say this many times in a at this time. We don't hear much about God being spoken. No, we don't hear much about you know, you said spiritual leaders standing up. So you mentioned the text. As we were talking. Just before the meeting, you said that there come a time when there'll be a great falling away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Mm hmm.
Simon Pinchbeck:Now I was speaking to a good assistant Pastor Mike, am I great is a beautiful man, I got real lovely fella. And he's in a big church in Essex. And he said that they get in very few people come on, as soon as they get Yeah, you know, very few people even come to the church and the church is open. And you said the same thing about another big church is very close to it, because they've actually shut the doors for their prayer meetings, because you
Reverend Ben Cooper:can't get enough people because not enough people are coming in. There's more people opening the building, and doing all the COVID measures than there are actually coming to the prayer meetings. We've got so where do we sit?
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, we've got to say that there'll be a lot of these people would have fallen away. Definitely. Yeah. And even as I was talking to his fellow he was saying, even on the zoom calls, people are getting out making a cup of tea, you know, doing sitting back in the Lazy Boy chair, you know, looking after the dog all that sort of thing, rather than go you gauging on what in what's going on. So I think there's a within that for in a way. I think there's a yes, there is a far and away but I think some of those people are probably doing church elsewhere. Yeah, realizing, yeah, that we can do church, this church, what do you mean you were, wherever we are, wherever we can do judge,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we don't need to be in the building. And we put too much weight on the building. And suddenly we realize that the building has no eternal value. And it's thrown a lot of us into a spin because everything happened within the building, when actually, that really wasn't God moving that was business moves a building become an idol, a golden, what do certain symbols in certain religions become? idols? What does a certain lady become an idol? What does saints become? idols? What even Eve we are, when you mentioned the word church, we know that Christ is the head of the church. And if I have to go to another human being to get the forgiveness of sin, or go and sit in a square box, and ask for forgiveness, when the father says, Come to me, all of you that are weary and heavy laden, and I'll give you rest, yes. Yeah. That is putting weight that that becomes I would, I would say, I'm going to go out on this one. I think we've got a bigger cult movement.
Simon Pinchbeck:You're under percent right now. It's
Reverend Ben Cooper:called a cold. It sorry, it is. It isn't a cold, but it's got the church over the face of the face of it.
Simon Pinchbeck:You know, I was I was brought up in a Catholic Church. My my, my grandma was very devout Catholic or even just to start with, you know, as a young, my first school was convent. So and when I came to faith when x Jesus Christ accompanied the freedom. There was no religion, you should
Reverend Ben Cooper:know the truth and the truth will set you free. So we've got these religion anymore. We've got these religions around the world that label themselves up church. But actually, if the church that says they are the church does not follow the instruction of God, and it starts to put idols in place. What does it become? It becomes an occult. Well, here's
Simon Pinchbeck:the deal right? With with this, Ben is that the enemy is an imitator
Reverend Ben Cooper:100%.
Simon Pinchbeck:And that's all he does. He's an imitator. And so what he's done within within is imitated so. So we've got here we've got that the three in the pagan religions is Nimrod. Yes. He's the king and you've got I forget the name, but she goes under many names, Ishtar is one of them. She's the Queen of Heaven. Okay. Yeah. And the sun is to moose, okay, and the sun died. And it says in in that in that pagan religion, it says, the son was conceived about Nimrod actually asked me for that contact contact. And the son died. And for 40 days, the Queen of Heaven. She lamented, you know, she, yeah, and, and he, we got a certain religion to Catholicism. We've just been through what they called Ash Wednesday, where where you go and as a young boy that you went, and they put a cross, on your arm in ashes on your forehead, did you not? Yeah. Well, in pagan religions, that is not a cross. That's a tee for 10 years. And it says, because they they celebrate Pancake Day, the day before it says in pagan religion, they had a feast. So here we've got and Everywhere you look, there's the Queen of Heaven isn't.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if I'm in a church or religion that says it is the church, what do I look out for, for a clear indicator, that that is the Church of Jesus Christ, that is Jesus Christ at the top, he says, I am the head of the body of Christ that he says I am the head of the church. So if we are lifting up any human being, and we are looking to a human being I understand Church has its structure, as the Bible talks about structure in the body of Christ, so rightly so. But when the structure is taken for man's gain, and for idolatrous worship, within the context of the church, that cannot be the Church of Jesus Christ. If I'm lifting up a woman or I'm lifting up a man, or if I'm praying to a symbol,
Simon Pinchbeck:anything in a way,
Reverend Ben Cooper:anything in the way but it's so easy to to lift up a symbol or a person over Christ Jesus,
Simon Pinchbeck:let me ask you this. Do you think we got ambitious people in the pulpit?
Reverend Ben Cooper:We have motivational preachers, we have ambitious people. We have people that are very well educated. We have people that that know how to manipulate. We have innkeepers as the scripture says, and as as the, as the innkeeper said to Mary Joseph, there's no room for Jesus here. And that's what we have in pulpits. There's no room right point, there's no, there's no room. There's no room for Jesus. It's not his, it's my it's my pulpit. It's my church. It's my ministry. When it becomes my, I become a golden calf calf,
Simon Pinchbeck:and what do they do they bring Jesus in, and we'll use him because, yeah, for a bit of theology, which might sound okay, but we'll use Jesus. Yeah, to fulfill what we want to do. Instead of letting Jesus use us to fulfill His purpose, it has
Reverend Ben Cooper:something it's very, very subtle because we see that it's like, when you look at Lucifer, in, in Luke, when you look at Lucifer, when Christ was chapter four, when Christ was in the wilderness, Jesus said to Lucifer, on we know what happened there. He said, It is written, it is written twice, he says, it had written it is written, then he says, and the third time, it is said, so Lucifer hears all this and knows all this, but then he comes back and quotes the word to the word who is the word and he says, to Christ, it is written so As we were saying, and we know the devil imitates everything, everything, everything. Yeah. So the devil, listen to what Christ said. And then he put it back into Christ's arena. It is written. So we have men and women in pulpits that are not saved, that have their own agenda that are looking for cash, rather than salvation. We have seen for generations false prophets arise in false teachings, and we have witnessed so much stuff and fruit is pandemic, it has exploded,
Simon Pinchbeck:I think the falseness totally. And I think you've got to be very careful. And don't just jump into any church that now seems that's got a big congregation or whatever, you have to listen to what's going on. Because Yeah, is this the golden calf of the building? As you Manny, as you rightly said, But the big thing is notoriety. It's here. Look, it's all about it's all about me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I built this church.
Simon Pinchbeck:I did I did
Reverend Ben Cooper:I build this ministry? How
Simon Pinchbeck:many times do we hear that?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, this is my church. Yeah. Or do you know what that frightens me? You know,
Simon Pinchbeck:I've built this up. No, he did. Yeah, I hear that so many, often, so many times. It's the same as when someone goes on debt that God
Reverend Ben Cooper:didn't predestination you Romans tells me very clearly, you ain't no one to Christ.
Simon Pinchbeck:You might have the Holy Spirit might have used you. And Lord, he did.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, I am. What I've started to realize is through this pandemic, and, and before actually, how I've got so much wrong, because I followed the culture of church. And I was feeling so uncomfortable and so insecure and trying to scratch the back of of people and trying to please everybody rather than please my God. Yeah. And I began to put too much focus. Now, this might sound terrible on people when I have to focus on people because obviously I do. But the first prime focus in my life is my God. And my, my, my salvation. Now, that's not to say that I'm living right, and I've got everything right, no far from that. But one thing I do know, is that he sent his one and only Son to die upon the cross for me, and predestination, and grace, by grace have been saved in the blood of Jesus, I start to fill and get a fuller understanding of that, and realize that I'm going to be completely honest that I feel that church has robbed me too many years of stroking the back of religion and trying to blend it into a culture that I never I never felt comfortable in the system of church.
Simon Pinchbeck:And you know, I can go along with that completely. But you know, what you got to say his friend, the Lord, that your eyes are open. Yeah, you know, and you're trying to fit in to that system. Yes. Down Are you really at the end of the day been trying to fit into what was going on? Trying to fit in? I've done it myself in other ministries you try and fit in?
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, but you feel a square peg in a round hole. You don't feel right. Don't feel comfortable. You don't feel at peace. Now. We've we've all that stuff. And it's very easy. And you know, because you know, you're in a in the pulpit.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. A lot.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, very easy for people to look to you. He said, I'm looking to Jesus. So. So the guy in the front, the front is got to be less right, always pointing towards Jesus Christ,
Reverend Ben Cooper:always it has to be towards Jesus. There's no novel way, but towards the King of kings and the Lord of lords that it has to it has to be that way. There's no other way. If it's not pointed towards Jesus, what
Simon Pinchbeck:do we have to keep doing? If I know who we are? We have to keep checking our motivation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. Yeah, checking
Simon Pinchbeck:how much why are we doing that? Are we doing it so that man was praised? Are we doing it? That's Roman it because we're following the footsteps of Jesus Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It has to be the preacher has to be talking about the blood. The preacher has to be talking about creation, the preacher has to be talking about the fundamental points. And then then we come on to it well, am I live in it? It's hard to live it. It's tough. It's tough to live it in our culture and in a nation that is completely anti completely anti God.
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, you know, we've said this many times, but when it needs to be repeated, but is that We live in. Yeah, if I tell you let me tell you, you know, we talked we spoke about Yeah. I think the last one we did, we spoke about manhood in his manner of being dumbed down. So I went out for a coffee with my son, we sat in the car, we got a drive thru, and I sat in the car with him. He's in his 30s. And I said, ad You see, manner. Today, you know, we had an interesting conversation. But what it boiled down to was, what he said was, he said, it's all about self today
Reverend Ben Cooper:all about promoting self
Simon Pinchbeck:promoting self. So this is the secular world. Yeah, is telling you that you can do this, you get this motivational coach, you get this gym coach, you can look like this. It's all about the totally the packs all about, it's all about you. And you can do anything with a positive mental attitude. You've got to have that positive manner, you can go out you can achieve anything in your life. Now, we know it's an upside down kingdom
Reverend Ben Cooper:for Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:very much so. And we can't do nothing. No, we're there. We're nothing without Christ with absolutely nothing. You know, as you put it, you know, you walk around in your earth suit, you might think you're something but you're nothing, nothing. So first thing has to come is total submission.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because then also we can make ourselves into a golden calf, that we start to worship ourselves,
Simon Pinchbeck:well, then then what happens inwards? So what happens is, the enemy is very subtle. And sometimes maybe not so subtle. But your identities chained to your house, your car, your job, your money,
Reverend Ben Cooper:my lifestyle.
Simon Pinchbeck:Your identity is chained to all that. Yeah. And so very soon, we try and lead up to that. And now is that married in the church? Yes, it's married in the church? Because of course, yeah. Because we have men, ambitious men and women in the pulpit who are saying to you, that Jesus through Jesus, you can do everything,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can do everything.
Simon Pinchbeck:Jesus wants to bless you, because it's all about love. And Jesus wants to give you so we have so we have we're listening to it. In the world. Yeah. And all of a sudden, we've got a shortcut to why. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, we have that. No, we haven't that brings that brings in the prosperity gospel, doesn't it? You can have it now. Jesus is going to bless you. But it's gonna give you that job is going to give you that money. And if we you have not, could you ask not? What a great a great scripture. What a great. It's taken out of context. context. Sorry. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:But that's a mean if you look at some of the some of the fellows that some essay drives, that's in your face prosperity gospel, but there's other guys in the pulpit that are not quite as in your face, but it's still coming satisfying.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:it's subtle. It's saying, you know, yeah, yeah, these scriptures are for you. Yeah, the scriptures are for us. Jesus is, is for you, you can you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can have it or when you listen to a motivational speaker, if you listen to them, you, you can see they take elements of the Word of God, and they use it in their speech, and in their build up and in their hype. Because it is powerful. And if you take the scriptures and you take all those, I can do all things through Christ, it gives me strength, you know, no weapon formed against me shall prosper. If you bring all this stuff together. You can you can get it you can get paid, you can get the adrenaline rush. But that's what we're living in. We're living in a world that's all about the adrenaline rush. It's about the last the pride of life, what I can gain what I can get more money in the bank more for me a great car, a bigger house, the prosperity gospel is all about promoting self, not Christ. I'm prospering.
Simon Pinchbeck:And my voice said, Dude makes you a little gold. And it's the truth as God's image is from another religion, and yeah, from from something else entirely. But the the key to following Jesus Christ, yeah. is to give all of that to give.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You gotta give it, you got to give it out,
Simon Pinchbeck:get down your face and say, nothing. We got you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can't do anything. I can't do anything without you. I can't do anything whatsoever without my god and without my king. I need you and then it comes into surrender is such an important thing to do.
Simon Pinchbeck:Not only that, I don't want to do anything, not involved.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So and why is that because nothing fulfills gives me peace. Everything of what this world offers is visual short term, a short term temporal. Where's your Where's your heart where your heart is your find your treasure?
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, share. Yeah, that's right. JOHN wimber said show me where you put your your money, your time your energy and I'll show you what you worship and and it's the truth is the truth. And so even as a Christian we can be doing works without keeping that personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which is the most important thing in a Christians life. That was a one to one relationship with Jesus Christ, and let in Jesus leads you to the Father. Because then we have this Father, don't forget, you know, we've just seen how this ad his father operates. Yeah, he then he doesn't suffer fools gladly is now a wink at nine not not at all. So we can have access to the fro room of the Almighty God Himself. Where whether Scripture says, angels fly around with six wings to to cover their eyes, because of the glory the glory of him is so we can have access to that. And He will speak to us, for Jesus Christ. And and where do we find Jesus? In the word, we find Jesus in the word,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's in the word, it's a word of God. So how how do we live? How do we live as believers in a world that is being pressed towards the end of time being pushed towards the Antichrist when the stage has been set for, for the the end of time, being a believer is so difficult and so hard to do, especially if you're in work and you've got workplace issues and and you're you're in a you're in a family that is non believing, and you're you're trying to press and you've got all these issues around you. You can you can see, go back to the Old Testament, you can see Aaron did he cave in and thought you know what? Look at the look at the disciples, look at the disciples when they said, When Christ being crucified and been buried and everything that happened, and they said, I'm going back fishing, I'm going back to my old stuff. Okay, so we got it back
Simon Pinchbeck:very quickly, the the fallen away these, and these are men that
Reverend Ben Cooper:spent time and in the presence
Simon Pinchbeck:of Christ. And Peter gets a bad rap for denying Christ, you know, but he says in the scripture that all the disciples ran away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, so none of them stood there. So when we see all of the disciples running away on one sold him for 30 pieces of silver. So as we look at that big label of the church, if I'm not in the word, I'm not for Jesus. Now, there's a difference isn't. When I say in the word, I know that the word is yes and Amen. It is without error. But then the challenge becomes of living in that that's a different challenge altogether. But when you look at the disciples and those that were talking about with the golden calf, they just went back,
Simon Pinchbeck:they just went back, I just went back very quickly, they went
Reverend Ben Cooper:very quickly,
Simon Pinchbeck:and no one stood up and said,
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is wrong. So the crowd went fishing. A few went fishing, that have been with Jesus that have been
Simon Pinchbeck:What's that? What's that, quote? This is evil succeeds when good men do nothing. Oh, yeah. And, and so your question was, how do we cope with,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we cope in this
Simon Pinchbeck:world? Who is spending time alone with Jesus and the father? How do we do that? We find a space. I don't care if you've got to get up at five o'clock in the morning, you find a space, get on your knees, get on your face, and just just sew into the Lord you have a completely and do you know cry on you know, you know, this is another great phrase that says victories in public and private and that's right and that is a truth in it. You know, the times you know, people think you've got it all together, but none of us got it all together. We spent time and hours on our knees crying out to the Lord. Because life's tough. It's
Reverend Ben Cooper:a journey it's it's it's hard and the world has got many golden coughs around our eyes at the moment is disguised, is disguised in suits is disguised in cars. It's disguised in some in homes is disguised in in dress form. So
Simon Pinchbeck:we've got these pieces you call these golden cars
Reverend Ben Cooper:around us all day also,
Simon Pinchbeck:you will look at the circle of friends you've got. How many of them are standing out with you? Would you not you want to have more of a handful have really true
Reverend Ben Cooper:Jesus followers. Yeah. As in this was not only you know you talking about people that would have your back Yeah. No matter what got your six no matter what. Yeah. Plenty of souls about there's plenty of Judas is about that. So yeah, for a couple of quick
Simon Pinchbeck:Let me tell you, you know if you listen to this podcast for any length of time or know me, you know my story you know, I was a police officer for over 25 years and then I had a circle of friends there which was enormous hmm I got suspended for assaulting another police officer. I could count on less than one and the amount of boosted with your stood with me now I knew I'd be in the gym and someone would get off a machine and walk away and walk away. I'd be people are playing rugby with people. I've been on rugby tours with people who just walked away, turn it back on me. It brings what life is like and that's what people are like, I don't blame him or excuse him. I was surprised at a few of them to be honest with you. And it's the same one you stand up and say, I'm a Christian.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I believe in Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:believe in Jesus. Well, it's a bit of a showstopper. Yeah, okay, bye.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm going to church. But it's true. It's a truth. It's the truth.
Simon Pinchbeck:Monday morning at work. What do you do with that weekend? Oh, yeah, I was able to use bah, bah, bah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:bah, bah, bah, I want to change I want to start from you can't talk about that in here to do anything else. I will engage in the conversation about Jesus Christ. No chance it is a deal.
Simon Pinchbeck:When the chips are down some of those people the biggest ones that are really, really killing you. Yeah. come alongside you and go in the quiet in the quiet. You tell me. Just tell me a little bit and can you say a bit of a struggle? Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So don't
Simon Pinchbeck:we're gonna talk a bit about that. In next round having a garbage Jesus. But but there's a thing because he got us we got a stand. Because Stanford, we spoke about before about the see we're in the red spot. standing out in the crowd. Oh,
Reverend Ben Cooper:my God.
Simon Pinchbeck:This is a time when we got a stand up. This is This is tough time so much going on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's bad, but it's good. It's bad. But it's good. But it's good.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's good. Because it's so bad. Yeah. And how does that work? And how does that work?
Reverend Ben Cooper:We don't know. Certain things that you can't answer. Can you really have to leave it? But we know
Simon Pinchbeck:and you know, and and we've spoken to before, we've just seen a couple of fellows, you know, out in the in the in the church there. People
Reverend Ben Cooper:are searching. People are searching. People want it's a great time. It's a great time to be out there churches lot. Religion is shut down. And Jesus is moving and Jesus is moving. Yeah, we put we don't give them a golden calf. We don't give him because the church has become the golden calf. We give them Jesus Christ. Yeah, the church has become the idol. The church has become this. We worship the structure and the building and cathedrals and buildings and, and beautiful facilities and all that and how we're doing this and how we, you can buy a brick, you can buy this you can donate to the building, and we need new lows, and let's raise some money for the lows. And let's do this. Let's do that. The building over the years has become this. This this structure that we worship that we love the building, and it's forgotten about that created the brick
Simon Pinchbeck:that you're talking about. And it's forgotten about. The mission is forgotten about the mission field. It's forgotten about the gospel is forgotten about what we've been commissioned to them is forgotten about a commission which says yeah, go out and preach the gospel.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you talk about the mission if we if he was to look at the vision statement, the churches, what would the vision statement of churches we want to build we want to build we want to build but what should it be is we want to see people saved and blood washed. Yeah, well, that's that's that should be the only statement. But you can go into churches you can talk about we're praying, what vision have we got? What is the vision, what is the what is the policy? What do we have Then you got big documents or what we what this and what that and Jesus is almost left off the page. The only vision statement that should be seen across every church is that we want people saved
Simon Pinchbeck:we want people say won't be and how do we do that? We got to think outside the box right now. And let me doing it easily. So how are you doing it even Swanley you are doing it are getting out there and delivering boxes and food and people coming into the church to
Reverend Ben Cooper:do what you're telling them about Jesus. You're not either Nana hide in it? No, no, not hiding that at all. We can't hide that.
Simon Pinchbeck:This is about and where it takes them. Who knows? Who knows. But you've given them Jesus, but you're also giving them food, though. You know, because William Booth that great guy that founded the Salvation Army says you can take a man out of the gutter. Yeah, you could feed in clothing home and give him a job and send him to hell.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Simon Pinchbeck:And we have to be careful. You know, some of these churches are sweeping in on the social justice speak
Reverend Ben Cooper:very careful that that's a really touch point and that we can easily bend you could actually go into that go into that Miss or miss the whole point. Miss the whole point.
Simon Pinchbeck:One, you know drops off the perch there is he's he's got he's nice. He's been in he's got a job. Yeah. Did anyone mention Jesus? If Jesus laughs But it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:done it is life and death? And that is the question, don't we? The church has become the place and the structure that is worshipped. Though, I don't like to use the word worship band. But how often do we see this in the culture of the church? We haven't even gone that we worship worship leaders and who was a leader of music who got kicked out of heaven? And what did he say to Christ in the Gospel of Luke chapter four? I'll give you everything if you bow down and worship me on what do we do in Christian worship? We worship the music there's a road that would
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, the music is one of the one of the routes that go down but here's the thing you know, we have Aaron caving in
Reverend Ben Cooper:from here has come back to our for our heroine,
Simon Pinchbeck:but he caved in needs you know, we can't get away from that. And what what our guys in pulpits do they
Reverend Ben Cooper:give us your earrings they cave in in case your earrings are engaged in it
Simon Pinchbeck:what sort of church do you want? Oh, I wanna I want one was plenty of doughnuts and pastries and coffee coming Oh, what's Blender banana see coming up, but I want one with a bit of singing but I want that you know that stuff? I don't want that talking about Blood and christ alone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I don't want any of that stuff about my sins.
Simon Pinchbeck:I don't want to talk about oh, I don't want that Hell no, I just want to come in and leave with the same crap that I've walked in with
Reverend Ben Cooper:exactly. You know what I know a pastor that's not too far from here. That actually doesn't believe in hell. What that one out, work it out. Yeah. You're not I had someone come up to me that another leader of a church and actually said, I really fell over and literally fell over. They said, I don't actually quite believe in Mary, the way she gave birth to I can't quite believe that when the virgin birth, the virgin birth and I thought fundamental. If I just taken a wacky tablet, standing in front and someone that's got a clergy collar on
Simon Pinchbeck:the surface as soon as you as soon as you chip away at that stuff. I don't believe in the creation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It Yeah. So evolution that's so we've got everything going on with in. We're in the church. We don't need to look outside the world.
Simon Pinchbeck:The church needs to evangelize and I've said it
Reverend Ben Cooper:many church needs Jesus.
Simon Pinchbeck:Where's your relationship with Jesus Christ? Where is that as the most important thing? Yeah. It doesn't matter what else you do, but that relationship that you should be inside of you. When you accept Him as your Lord and Savior. He's there waiting. What what? What's he doing? He's not sitting in a chair where he's on his phone. He's there waiting for us. Good start. Yeah, coming to him. Because he wants to take you to the farm and he wants to mention to the farmer
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, praise God, because
Simon Pinchbeck:that's the only way we're gonna get there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's the only way through Jesus the wider life and the true live you read that? Are you going in Bibles? It's a new thing. It's a new thing they put in Bibles in churches. I thought it was all men's literature. I thought it was all men's
Simon Pinchbeck:life and all that stuff. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. I have to get myself a Bible I'm never I'm always following our
Simon Pinchbeck:lives through Jesus and look we have this power of God I keep signing wants to wants everyone to come back to me. But he wants you to accept himself.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm being flippant you know, but you know, I thank God for what God is doing for this time I thank God for what he's doing. What the enemy meant for harm God will turn for good but this is a great awakening within me.
Simon Pinchbeck:But is it in me in this place here in Austria, suddenly, you could have just gone but the shutters down close the doors. See a layer will open up again when Barry says is all cleared now you've slammed the doors open you've got that you know, usually takes me a video we are 500 bags of spirits in the bag over in the back of the church bus. Yeah, you're gonna give them out but you can tell them about Jesus. Exactly. You telling Jesus we have a bag of spuds?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, grapes that Yeah, what the spots come from. Now we only have Maris Piper here. Faith
Simon Pinchbeck:like potatoes. Someone wrote so you won't live? Yeah. Yeah, no, Mike. That's that's what you can't be doing. You we we got to be thinking more than
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we have the way we are, you know, so. There's so much to talk about this trigger, never flag. Oh, no. So we're still on it. She can
Simon Pinchbeck:get a gun have a shot. I want to listen to a bit of Joel Osteen while we listen, because it will give us inspiration for the next one. But listen, it might we have to? You know, I do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've done
Simon Pinchbeck:stuff with men for a long time now. And I am never, ever. I never, ever take it for granted what the Spirit can do, and how we can go so quickly when you invite Him into your life. So what I'm saying to people out there is we're talking about golden cars and talking about idols. We're talking about things in your life. You know, we're talking about, you know, what's on your phone, you know, what, you know, what's the what's the first thing you you look at on YouTube? What's the first thing you you Google, you know, all that sort of stuff? If you're not sure, then just spend some quiet time as the Holy Spirit to convict you of that stuff.
Reverend Ben Cooper:See the world the Lucifer and kill it.
Simon Pinchbeck:And David did.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know, he, he, he makes he puts golden cast in front of us all day long.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's very easy. This is very nice to watch Telly to be on the on the on the on the YouTube too much on social media too much all that sort of thing. And it's all a distraction. Yeah. To that relationship.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It simply comes back to that forget all the theological stuff, all the in depth stuff. What does it do? It takes my attention away from Jesus that makes sure that that is the about we can look at it for weeks and hours and discuss the all the real deep points about it. But the simple process that the devil wants to do is to take our eyes off of Jesus. Yeah.
Simon Pinchbeck:it no matter how that happens, and whatever way that looks like spoke about what the amazing stuff you do here and it would be quite easy to get involved in that stuff.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There's a fine line, there's a fine line
Simon Pinchbeck:then in in Jesus, that's Jesus. So following Jesus Christ, the cross is what we what we say. And you can run away with that. And all of a sudden you down the road and you're feeding 5000 people a month. But you've got no relationship with
Reverend Ben Cooper:Jesus, Jesus is not being spoken about. And he's not the center point. It becomes an as a lot of things happen. I do believe in in ministry, the ministry becomes ministry overtakes, overtakes, and that's what we've got to be careful of.
Simon Pinchbeck:And God is saying right now, I'm not we're not looking for big ministries. I'm not looking for a warehouse. I'm just looking for a one to one relationship.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I want your heart
Simon Pinchbeck:I want your heart. That's the only thing we can give him. And, and, you know, we spoke and there was two fellows came in to the church this morning, and, you know, on a chat to him, and you could see their outs were Yeah, they were alive.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They was alive for they were
Simon Pinchbeck:alive for what Jesus is doing from Yeah, and many just sort of makes me thinking, you know, his two fellas. Yeah, that weren't in your congregation before this app.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, but they're part of the body part of the body section. That you don't need to be in the building. It's a big part of God's plan now, you're doing God's work. No.
Simon Pinchbeck:Oh yeah, half of stuff. I'll go and see a chiropractor.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I was gonna say I can't see a tarot card reader.
Simon Pinchbeck:I'll leave that to some other people when I go see a car back once a month. And James is very thorough. He's a great guy and, but he's got his wife's side of the family, all Catholic, Irish Catholics or whatever. And he became a Catholic some years ago, and we've had many discussions about God and Jesus and he's coming in from the Catholic angle. And, you know, we just just keep talking and keep talking and when he's when he's helping me. And last time I went to see him Yeah, he's gone to me. It's it's about Jesus Christ in it. Well, it's about a relationship in ISIS. Yeah, you know, what's happened? Is it just gone bank
Reverend Ben Cooper:done boy out appears just dropped down as all that time. It's just it that yeah, it's dropped to the heart. Praise God.
Simon Pinchbeck:And I says, You've got it. You said, I've been lied to.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Whoa, I've been lied to for years. Obi Come on. The Golden Calf Mike has
Simon Pinchbeck:a golden calf Microsoft been lied to for years. He said isn't and it's not about religion. It's about
Reverend Ben Cooper:Jesus. So when we look at the Golden Calf makers, the Israelites were they outside? They was they was the core. The Golden Calf makers are in the building
Simon Pinchbeck:or in the building.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And on that note, Elvis has left the building. Simon, we thank you so much. Let's go and talk about football. golden calf. Let's go and have a large cigar. And let's go scotch and a large scotch in the fire pit around the fire pit. Yeah. In the name of Jesus, even listening to Simon Pinchbeck myself Reverend Ben Cooper for not much longer. And we thank You, Lord for what you're doing. But please share these podcasts out and we thank you for joining us May God bless and strength for you know, we just sometimes you just gotta be open, be real and speak your heart is and you can catch Simon for real men for Christ in many areas. And you can contact us here as well if you need to speak to him and just have a chat with him. But thanks, God. Thanks be to God for Simon coming over to see us today. And we will catch you very very soon in Jesus name. Amen.