Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast in Elim church. You're joining myself, Reverend Ben Leonard Cooper with Leya Jane Moore. It's Saturday morning,
Leya:Saturday morning. I've had my fry up. I had some hashbrowns this week. They were good.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Can I say something about that? Well, people are coming in. Let's say we talk about food a lot.
Leya:We do talk about good. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you've had your food. Yeah. I had a little cheeky McDonald.
Leya:I had to lay him. I read a book. A book made a bit of book and then I had a fire up delivered. A fry up don't Yeah, nice big cup of tea. And then I went down to the shop and bought my mom a Mother's Day card.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, it's Mother's Day yet, which is day tomorrow. Tomorrow. Yeah, we pray for the mums and they want to be mums. And they're going to be mums. Yeah, and the mums that I just want professional.
Leya:We're talking like it really is Saturday. A Saturday Saturday. Sorry, it's Saturday. It's nice Friday night.
Reverend Ben Cooper:As Friday nights tend to run in like we got a heavy evening the church heavy until Boris? church 1000 people yeah,
Leya:I'm gonna get baptized in front of 1000 people tonight.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, and we can't get in trouble
Leya:you can find us on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've done the full introduction.
Leya:You can find us on
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amazon. buzzsprout, Spotify, Apple Music,
Leya:I Heart Radio, Google Play. Alexa,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
Leya:There you go.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There you go. Good evening, wherever you may be today around the world. Thank you for joining us here in Elim church. And we are looking at a great subject and the word is
Leya:food. No Is not it music is. Music be the food of love play on but I'm going to change it. If music be the food of God. Yeah. And faith,
Reverend Ben Cooper:play on play, the hotter you're getting every is good. It's not deep. It's Saturday. It's Saturday that we found we have found we have both pinga the same scripture. So it must be something in this Ephesians chapter five, verse 19. And the word that Leah had on our heart for this little recording today was music, music music now that's a very difficult subject, I think to talk about. When you have music in the church music in the church is worship. completely different to the secularized world of music, which is all I ever knew. is all you ever know. But you are a musician on your music. It's a little background.
Leya:Well, oh, it's got to start right back at the beginning of my life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Music When you came out your mommy's when I
Leya:was playing a guitar and saxophone and some drums and she was like leave
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, too much.
Leya:No, my dad was drama. He was in a band. They were quite very good. nearly got signed today. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:well didn't know that.
Leya:Yeah, nearly got signed. But I said to him with Decker. But the bloke said to him, I want you to play your instruments this way. And my dad said no, I'm gonna play my instruments my way. Then they had families and they make them from Newcastle just because that's such a good following. Anyway, I digress. So I've had music in my life, my entire life, your entire life my entire life, literally from
Reverend Ben Cooper:the cradle. Don't say a word now.
Leya:I'm not gonna tell now. from the cradle to the now to the been like, what can you play? Can you play the drums on a butter thing with some chopsticks? Can you play the pans?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Was it all mum or dad or? Mum?
Leya:My mum. My mum. She doesn't play any instrument. She knows everything they know she now she don't play. She's got a nice voice. But she never sings in public corner. Yeah. Which got really good.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Not that she would just a bit of a
Leya:joke like, ah, a lot of people should not be in the center of attention how me and my ear. So when I was 18 I said to my dad, I want you to teach me to play the guitar.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. He said
Leya:no. Three times in a row. No, no, no. I asked him, like, over a number of days.
Reverend Ben Cooper:To take this Yeah. Music out for me. Yeah,
Leya:free times. He said, Good. Cha. No way. And then he taught me when a fourth time I asked you said okay, you really do want to do
Reverend Ben Cooper:making sure that you wanted to do it because you want to do it
Leya:seriously, seriously from your heart because before then I played the drums in a school band and things like that. So I've always been around music. It's always been something that's been me. Always sung my entire life. I don't remember not singing, but never ever, ever had the bottle to do it in front of people. So I'd never sang in front of anyone until I joined my band, not my band. And yeah, that was that was only about six years ago. Okay. I was just too nervous. I wouldn't do it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Really? Yeah. And then surprised.
Leya:I know, because actually I've got quite good for us. And when I say quiet is good, and I'm not ashamed of that
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a gift. Yes, that that will go on the
Leya:gift. She said to me, you've got a gift. And if you don't lose it, use it. You're gonna waste it. And God gave that to you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And she's a Christian. Yeah, no, that's quite interesting. And now you're using it for
Leya:using it for God, our Lord and Savior. Yeah. So it was a bit strange because I was going out on Saturday and Friday nights singing. Yeah, secular music and then coming into church on a Sunday. And singing folk music. And it got to a point where I preferred the five music until the boys
Reverend Ben Cooper:tanto rescue One
Leya:to One Direction direction. Yeah, just I never had not had music in my life. I've always loved it. It's touched my heart. And then when I was teaching the kids the music here, which we've touched on in our podcast. That was what opened my heart to God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I so phenomenal story. Amazing. Yeah. powerful story. Yeah. How you came in here to teach? Yeah, I don't know Jesus.
Leya:Or Nana, that slope and everything. But, you know, stick to the pub. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm a pop singer. I'm
Leya:a pop singer. Singing The Rolling Stones sympathy for the devil. Whoa, I know. Every Saturday or Friday night, sometimes two or three times a week I was getting up and singing them. And now if I'm asked to sing it, because I am asked to sing it
Unknown:of course you
Leya:immediately follow it up with you've got the love which is all about God. It's always like
Reverend Ben Cooper:no one poked you or said a word to you about Christianity Really? Did they when your your switch in from the world to church? We just came in and said, show the kids at play?
Leya:Well, yeah, I think it was a it was a case of I was repaying a favor. But it was like a
Reverend Ben Cooper:I remember it was only because you love music as well, wasn't it? So it all goes together Really? But isn't that interesting? How you suddenly have been brought up in, in the secular world of music and then suddenly very, very smoothly. Yeah, fault and add your own thoughts and understanding is I prefer Jesus basic feeling
Leya:that it gives you in your heart
Reverend Ben Cooper:because at the end of the day music is music.
Leya:Music is beautiful, amazing thing
Reverend Ben Cooper:about lyric, but when you put lyrics to it, that's when it changes. But if you just got no lyrics, you've got no vocals and it's just just the melody. Yeah, but then it's what you add to that.
Leya:That changes its flavor is the words the flight is the faith flavor.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's the fight.
Leya:flavor.
Reverend Ben Cooper:She'll tell you a quick funny story about my musical journey. I am not musician. Young I believe this. Well, when I was at this church for I've been at this church for donkey's. No. So when I was the assistant pastor, I was asked by HQ to go over to Norfleet said never heard of it. My way. That's not fun. Anyway, I went over there and there was
Leya:no foul
Reverend Ben Cooper:up there, and they said, Can you go here for a while? We might need to close a church. It's Yeah, full on. Okay, so I went over there. Lovely and full of people learn to play guitar.
Leya:Why?
Reverend Ben Cooper:I haven't had the church. I'm all for
Leya:but why did they tell you you must
Reverend Ben Cooper:learn to play the guitar and I've known musicians apart from Janet who could play play that thing with what things on it. I said called cable, the cable. By alone I to learn guitar and my guitar playing is vile, atrocious,
Leya:not something to the church.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They left snowflake spads because on the guitar. It was awful.
Leya:You've got to love it. You've got to have a little bit of some natural persuasion towards it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Listen in it. I know my calling. And it's not anything we strings on it.
Leya:Your brain. Yeah, because this is something that I heard as well. That you didn't have a band you prayed. There would be music in the church. Sister Sandra says that she prayed really hard and she had Not a vision, because that's not. But she said that, in our mind. She had seen that it would be children.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And it was, and we had them in the house
Leya:already here. And then I stepped forward and said, Can I do this for you? Yeah. And it was like,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, that's the rest of it is
Leya:and blessed with natural talent in the church.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that calculus is miraculous. When you look, when you really look at the whole story, your journey blended in with this church journey, and then my little dodgy journey. And then yeah, it was awful. I am atrocious. Beyond bad,
Leya:some plans to succeed point in.
Reverend Ben Cooper:The Scripture says something is not to succeed. He says at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow Bosch talks about demons shall flee at the name. I should get my guitar back in the car. And I'm going, yes, get out of it. We're out. The favorite car goes
Leya:cried, cried off the building.
Reverend Ben Cooper:vanish. And this little congregation would just cry. And I thought those crying because they loved it. Tears crying, because they wanted me out. Shine Elvis, get out of the building. Come on, let's get into this. Right.
Leya:Right. So the music, our love music. And what's one of the things that I really love about music is that it can put into words and melody. What 1000 words can't Yeah. So today I was listening to and also it helps me remember scripture
Reverend Ben Cooper:on I get that. Yeah, even though I'm not a musician. I i understand that. That Yeah, to get scripture. pressed on your heart, you can put it to and that's important about David cuz he was a poet, poet and musician.
Leya:Yeah. It was a bit of poet as well, was a doctor, but it was poet. They say that his poetry is his. His book is one of the most poetic, but I was just listening to so when I was coming in. I've had a bit of a bit of a tiring day. I've had a really lovely person in the office with me, and it's been really great bikes have been really busy. So I was driving, I'm thinking, Oh, I got set myself up for podcast recorded on a bit of bit got chainage Yeah. And I was listening to this song. And it said, I, I basically put the scripture into praise so that you'd remember it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Leya:Yeah, that hit me like a lightning bolt. And then the next thing another song comes on, and I'm dancing in the cars. I'm driving along. I'm lifting my arms up
Reverend Ben Cooper:down in the cafeteria,
Leya:right? Well, I lifted my arms up praising God, and the song was For God so loved the world. That he sent us his only son in that whoever believes in Him shall live forever. Wow.
Reverend Ben Cooper:In a cold usually remember lyrics now? But yeah, but the power of music with Scripture? Wow. Yeah. And that's what I always say about someone says to me, I can't I can't retain the Scripture. If you've got a psalm 23, Psalm 23, and start singing it. It's there. It's there. And like you're saying that you can remember easier when you put it to, to music and get it get a bit of a beat going in your head. It's really interesting.
Leya:But there's something really sincere about singing something as well, because you're making yourself vulnerable. So you're putting yourself out there? Which brings us to Ephesians 519 is do you think that there's something yet
Reverend Ben Cooper:Do you think there's something different between singing and worshiping? I've never thought about it. Singing if you're singing are you singing? Singing for yourself? worship is is completely I see that as a different word altogether. I see worship as complete surrender from music. See, that's
Leya:what I think music is anyway.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So you think that that is that whenever
Leya:I start in performed? Yeah, and some. It's not like it's me doing it? Is I am a vehicle for that song. Okay, right. Yeah. So the vehicle is not the service vehicle for me. I'm a vehicle for the song. So I'm trying to portray the emotion of that piece of music. Yes, I've got that through my voice, your voice and my musical talents. Yeah. And I've got a lot of experience at doing it. So I know some tricks to make things work. Can
Reverend Ben Cooper:I change that word from trickster acting?
Leya:No, because I'm not acting. Because I really feeling
Reverend Ben Cooper:well. Okay. So really not come into it. You are are no I'm just, yeah, sorry. It's literally you You feel the wave of the sound you feel the rhythm. You're feeling it? Yeah. Because there's such a difference between acting something and feeling it.
Leya:If you're acting it every single Friday or Saturday night, you're just getting out and doing an act. And it's boring. Yes. If you get up every single Friday and Saturday night and feel what you're doing. Yeah. And that's what I feel about worship, praise and worship,
Reverend Ben Cooper:songs. So you can't act worship Can you know you can't act it because it's an expression of how you feel with inside. Now, you've just mentioned a beautiful scripture Ephesians 519. And you are going to read it because the last part of that text is
Leya:nice, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing, making melody to the Lord with your heart. I missed out on and and addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. It finishes off with the heart, your heart, not lip service. The Scripture talks a lot about lip service and action. But if it's not coming from your heart, it is acting Exactly, exactly. Christ was talking about the Pharisees and the Sadducees that we looked at the Bible, like the pagans said,
Leya:is going on. It's not completely meaningless drivel. And if you can stand up and sing a song, and encompass that song with all of your heart. You're being vulnerable. Yeah. And you're giving yourself over. Exactly. Because when you're singing, if you're singing properly, you're not thinking about it so much. It becomes an act of creation in itself. Yeah, which is something that the Lord gave us. And there's a really great theory that says, when you're creating something, you're not thinking, you're not thinking about anything else going on around you. You're only in that moment during that moment. And if you're in that moment, praising God with your, your skills, your talents, your voice, your sincerity europian you can't be dishonest when you're singing with your open heart.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now you can listen possible. Yeah. Look at this James chapter, James, chapter five, verse 13.
Leya:Are you reading it? You read this one?
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll read this one, if anyone among you. Or if anyone among you is suffering? Let him pray. Hallelujah. That's me, by the way. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Leya:What about this one? Ecclesiastes seven, five. You're going to like this one?
Reverend Ben Cooper:A lot. Because yes, this
Leya:is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise man than to hear the song of falls.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Gosh, there's a lot of stuff in the word about music in there. I love it. So we've had ecclesiastics seven, verse five,
Leya:is that a pronounce it?
Reverend Ben Cooper:And we had James chapter five, verse 13. And we started off with Ephesians chapter five, verse 19. Then look at psalms 105. To sing to him, sing praises to him. Tell of his wondrous works. So the expression of your voice because your voice is an instrument. Yeah, it's an instrument. Yeah. So when you sing, you're you're expressing as we've said, and we just got back over oltorf a bit, our grant. You're expressing how you feel. sing to him. Psalm 105 verse to sing praises to him. Tell him of all his wondrous works. Like a summer Psalm 95.
Leya:Psalm 119 14. He dropped down a bit The Lord is my strength and my song. Yes. So not only is he what you are singing about, yeah, he is your song when you think about it. Music. Music is just echoes on air.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That sort of interest in it music. Yeah, all it is echoes on air. Everything grew that once.
Leya:I just
Reverend Ben Cooper:I just pulled that out. DJ
Leya:God went, put it on my hand and then I put it in my mouth and spoke it again. Yeah, that's all it is. It's just echoes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So echoes on air.
Leya:God is the air and God is the echo. And God is the instrument. And God is the song. And God is everything.
Reverend Ben Cooper:God is in everywhere.
Leya:That's why I love it because I feel like when I'm singing those praises, it's like creation. concentrated. Whoa.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You got back up because of me it just fallen out a minute. So what you said music is sounds
Leya:is echoes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:echoes.
Leya:Yeah. Because I was on air. Yeah, because
Reverend Ben Cooper:that is that that has stumped me that was just
Leya:sorry I'm a little bit deep that yeah you too so if you're hitting a drum Yeah, all you're doing is making echo to reverberate that air within that cylinder right? Same thing with your voice it's just your voice box and your vocal cords that are echoing That's all it is. If you're plakat plucking a string you're Yeah, you're just plugging in something that is going to echo within the sound chamber or is to do is you're making some echo with the air that surround it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So music is in their cars whether
Leya:that song here on a G string, you know, a pair of knickers, but actually the string on a I think it's a violin Yeah, we're on a G string. That's what it's all about. It's about the air being played around this
Reverend Ben Cooper:cold.
Leya:No, not even a chord just like a piece of something.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's thought I can't get it. I can't get I can't work this out.
Leya:All it is is reverberation, which is an fo so fired if I had a fighter guitar. Sitting with me now. Yeah, I pluck the string Yeah, and that just makes an echo
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's all it does for the air that's yeah here Yeah. Oh, this is this is
Leya:exactly I can
Reverend Ben Cooper:it not be too big. is too big for Saturday morning.
Leya:I mean, he got lots of people that use music for dark purposes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, now Whoa, hoo hoo. Well was he who was he kind of just mentioned one thing Yeah. Psalm 149 verse three go on.
Leya:Lay on me above
Reverend Ben Cooper:that then praise his name was dancing making melody to him with tambourine Elia. I replied.
Leya:A tambourine now,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Elia. Yeah, what is it? The devil
Leya:The devil is a liar. The devil
Reverend Ben Cooper:scripture is bringing it back. What is the lie is it? It's got string must have strings. It's like
Leya:a it's like a it's like a harp. Yeah, but it's just like, it's just play them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've seen I've seen it in firms.
Leya:Because did when Saul was Yeah, all of them. When Saul was getting a little bit antsy. Yeah, he'd get old David. He paid a little I didn't a
Reverend Ben Cooper:David will come in and jump in his guitar.
Leya:Yeah. I like Psalm 104. I must have
Reverend Ben Cooper:had no electric guitars. No, exactly. So everything was acoustic
Leya:is all was all about echoes. So, listen, now, I will sing to the Lord. As long as I live. I will sing praise to my god while I have been. And then this is the thing that really I'm gonna bring it back again. I'm gonna take it there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Go for it.
Leya:When we do get to heaven,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. When
Leya:when we get to heaven, we're just going to be surrounded by Sarah fims singing the whole time.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because I get to do what's in the book. I'll get that guitar of mine out. I gotta go.
Leya:Yeah, you don't play guitar. Angel over there. That's the whole purpose is just the same. And then the closest they're always we've got the always we've got
Reverend Ben Cooper:no seriously. That is that is that is just so glorious. To imagine what that must be like to hear. Angels just
Leya:singing the whole time. It just, it just is the whole purpose. And they're there all the time.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's all they do. Yeah. We know that's what they do with Scripture. But when you think about that, it's all they do.
Leya:Yeah. Just singing God's name. Just singing. And they never get tired and they never never to drink and they never get like a sore throat or guitar or anything like that
Reverend Ben Cooper:guitar guitar.
Leya:I'll cut Ah, never get that. We never get heartburn. Just voice goes on forever. And they all sound like better than Aretha Franklin. Which is, like, hard to imagine. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:then Justin Timberlake. Take that. Then I don't know about that. Michael Jackson. No, no, I'm not not to show him where he is. But he had some boats on him, didn't he? Yeah, but
Leya:they're not the dancing angels. But I'm gonna
Reverend Ben Cooper:digress a little bit. Okay. Yeah, sorry. I'm
Leya:not being flippant. Let's So you're allowed this Saturday. It's Saturday. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So music is a big key in Scripture. When you look at David. David was a fantastic musician. Really gifted. Yeah, I find that but he a polar opposite to that what would be it was a fighter is a warrior. Yeah, why not? Yeah. But Wow. You know, I mean to me, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so he would like, he could play instruments. And then he had a voice. He was a poet, but then he knew how to pick the sword up. And butter, some bread. Yeah.
Leya:Well, you know, all the greatest swordsman. I've great rhythm. So maybe it's that. But yeah, something that you've said in sermons before? I want to bring it back to reality is be careful of music. Yeah, you say it quite a lot. Be careful of music and opportunity to dye up a lot, not a lot every day. Sometimes Chevron doesn't. And sometimes we have to be careful about the bands that we choose. Sometimes it's a learning curve for me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's a learning curve for all of us. I think what we got to be careful of in the world of music is I know, you've taught me saying about the airwaves and all that. But there is there is a certain when you talk about the rhythm, there's a certain rhythm and a certain and transcend as well. So that that that can be brought on by music on it. So there's an area that you have to be very careful of, and you have to listen to the lyrics are they? Is it so involved? It's it's a difficult thing to pinpoint, and to really put down without pointing any fingers anywhere. So we won't we won't want we're not doing that. But it's like this The world of secular music, you know, the difference between secular music and worship music? Yeah, I do believe there are a lot of bands that carry they think they're Christian, but they're doing it with all their heart because so there's, there's lots of, say lots of shadows in that.
Leya:But if you take those bands that just want to do it for money, but you can't serve to God's
Reverend Ben Cooper:just gonna tell you, she's really getting this word. But when when you look at Dan Gilbert, I have to you have to be real, I have to be really careful. When you talk about melodies and lyrics you talk about you can talk about trance in certain festivals and certain worldly things that go on there are fuel by certain substances and, and you know, trance and is a very powerful thing. And you need to look at certain areas or certain parts of five across the world. People get into, you know, I talk about, you know, I've ever been out of body experience, some music is very powerful, and it gets you into a mood and into a rhythm. But what mood and what rhythm
Leya:there is
Reverend Ben Cooper:that that's the issue. And then you talk about the Kundalini spirit, which we won't go into at the moment.
Leya:That's what I was about to say that there's a certain country that has music, specifically for times of the day when you should pray to their God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, that's right. Or God's God.
Leya:And it is about the length for the song, the rhythm of the song. And it does become like a trance like state
Reverend Ben Cooper:that that that's where you need to be careful about a trance like state where people have these out of body.
Leya:Translate state, an out of body experience kind of thing. If it's forgot. If you're transferring over if you're meditating on the Lord, meditate on it day and night.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah. Come on Joshua nine. Yeah.
Leya:Then that's it. That's, that's, that's cool.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if you take lyrics, so right, if you take, if you take melody and music without any lyrics over the top of that, it could go two ways con it, you're either gonna be worshipping God, or you're worshipping Lucifer. Yeah. Because of the wording that you put over that, yeah, changes everything. But
Leya:then there's a lot of classical there are classical music pieces, which are all about God. And then they have no, they've, they have no music, lyrics.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now, it's just beautiful music and sound. And that's the way to glorify the Lord, to glorify the Lord here for the expression of how you express as well. Yeah. So coming back to like these, the Christian bands that I think there's a fine line is a very fine line. And if you take a lot of the if you take the redemption, hymnal, we should have had one in front of us, if you if you take the the old classic hymns, it's scripture and have them so that's that's what's really important. It has to be scripturally based. It has to have scripture.
Leya:Yeah. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think there's something
Leya:that I'm learning because there are some images that Yeah, songs that we have sung or that we played in the past. But you get caught up in
Reverend Ben Cooper:the assignment of it. And it's, it's got the label the church on the tin.
Leya:And then when you've got somebody that's got a good, good, honest, beautiful heart comes to you and says, Yeah, I think you might need to do a little bit of research on that. Because we get
Reverend Ben Cooper:caught in a in the church bubble. Just because it's church doesn't mean to say is, it's the right type of music.
Leya:And there's certain kinds of bands, there's certain bands that we don't play anymore. No, specifically because of that, because they come from Super churches. Yes, capital C, capital S. Churches, which are basically about making money. And, and,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and it's to do with feelings as well. That's right, when you're talking about feelings in the lyrics. And that's where the flesh comes in.
Leya:Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:if you're using, it'd be interesting. If you took that melody and you put scripture over, it would have a completely different. It's what you the words that you put into that, and the way that you use that word. So it
Leya:I do think, sorry, but there's a there are a lot of worship songs that do affect me, physically, do make me raise my arms up uncontrollably. Yeah. Or a lot of the times when I first started, I would place my hand on my heart, because I just felt like, Oh, you know, this is the weight of all my feelings are in my heart. And it's the weight of it. So I do think that that, and that's not a bad thing. No, no, no, because I think that's people unleashing Yeah, maybe they're buttoned down and they've had the whole week has just been like on them, and they feel it all on their shoulders. And then all of a sudden, they're allowed to open up their arms and worship God. Yeah. I think and and i think that music does create that physical feeling. Which other things can't. No, it can't. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So with with Christian bands, I think you have to look at is, what is the purpose? Why are you doing what you're doing? What lifestyle is it brought you through to? How are you going in from that context? Yeah, so there's a lot to go with it. And we know that the world loves music?
Leya:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Do you look at it, look at the follows and music, it's music.
Leya:Movies, they found were that the very first city ever? The evidence that they found was they had flutes so that they didn't find evidence of money. No, they didn't find evidence of anything else. They found evidence of them making music.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. Cave cave art. And when you so you said something really important. So what was Lucifer? He was the top cheese to do with music. Right? Give him any airplay. see a lot of so some music is very influential in people's lives it it gives
Leya:top Trump
Reverend Ben Cooper:so when you think about that, music is very powerful. It's very powerful. Is seductive. Now. So you just said sight there. Right? So music is used in lots of ways for certain feelings. So I think that we are in a very sticky area in the world of church music because it plays on feelings. Yeah, it does. When when your worship God you're not worshiping with your feelings. You're worshiping with your heart that is talking about your spirit. Your is not feelings of the senses. pure heart. You're worshiping God with your, with your innermost being. Yeah, you live with the depths that you could set, but when you've got secular music, it makes you feel happy and clappy
Leya:devil worshipping me. There is a there is when it I've said to many of my friends, I'm a Christian, and then they'll put something on that is all about the devil. Yeah, so I'm about the devil. And I'm not one. This is vile. Yeah, who is this isn't the most disgusting music I've ever heard in my life doesn't even feel like music to me, because it's vile. Why would you try to abuse me in that way? By quiet, my friend that in my face? I get Yeah, yeah. So and then you see t shirts and posters and these people built this entire conglomeration around music for that, yeah. That worships the devil. Because it's not
Reverend Ben Cooper:because that's what he wants to be what? Because he wants to be worshipped and how does he get to be worshiped is through lots of age brackets, lots of cultures, for music. So let
Leya:me tell you about this. worship. Now gone, we were our work and part of what we do is we look into terrorism. Yeah. So one of the things that we're looking into is white supremacist terrorists. Yeah. And a way that they actually recruit people is they have white supremacist devil worship in bands that go out across Europe. And that's how they recruit people. So come along and watch this file fee vile piece of music, which I would put my ears to. And that's how they get people in.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it traps you music can trap you or for you.
Leya:Yeah, so yeah, that's so good. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay. It will trap you or it will free you it will give you liberty or it will give you chains.
Leya:There's nothing better than dancing it was it that dance naked.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I was gonna say me. David, baby dance before with his scout baking cookies and singing everyone starts singing Praise the Lord.
Leya:And this is the thing people think that worship music is like slow country in western, which is very prevalent in the world. Yes. Or organ. churchy music. white socks? Yeah, sandwiches, capital T capital C church, just say Yeah. Or it's like choral music. Yeah. But actually, it's all kinds of music. So a lot of the things that when I first started in church, I was a bit like, okay, so these are all the songs that I've got to choose from with the kids to pay. Then you realize, Oh, yeah, man is not gospel. That's really good. Yeah. And I sincere. That's body goodness. Some of them. Some of it spit out a body madness, but like, I'm not going to go into that. And then also, you've got dance music.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. Oh.
Leya:Yeah. So there's a whole thing at the moment, which I'm just discovering, and it probably has existed prior. But there's a whole thing now about faith music becoming very secular. Yeah, in that it's going into the charts. Yeah. When people don't realize that that's what it is. So, I mean, it's probably it's been going on for years, like rivers of Babylon and stuff like Barney.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Barney, and there's a crack in Scripture. That is so strange.
Leya:And so everything Turn,
Reverend Ben Cooper:turn, turn. And think about how many 1000s of people have been singing that New Year's Eve Christmas Eve party. They don't even realize what they're singing. They're singing song.
Leya:Exactly. Exactly. What
Reverend Ben Cooper:is his music? He does. God uses music.
Leya:And you can hear it on the dance floors. You can hear it in the charts. You can. Everybody in my office will sit there working away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:If that would come up minus one love comes
Leya:down. Everybody starts singing along and I'm like, I'm sitting there. giggling thank you to you. We're using a new
Reverend Ben Cooper:song really interesting song that is. So music is really powerful. So when we talk about Christian bands, it has to be scripture based. Yeah, it has to be. Yeah, it has to have scripture based for it. Yeah, yeah.
Leya:It doesn't have to actually be scripture, though.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, but but then you got to be careful that what Jesus You're singing about? As the scripture says many Jesus's Yeah, so yeah. So
Leya:there's a lot of music that's about the way that Jesus saved people.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And
Leya:that can sometimes won't be both where we'll be based on the How do you play and it will be based on God, and it'll be based based on Jesus. But it might not actually have scriptures taken straight out of the Bible.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, no, but there's certain parts of it that are there that are over here directly from Yeah, I heard you play the holy. So music is a really interesting, powerful weapon, would we call it tall is a weapon. And I guess it got a guitar swinging around.
Leya:I don't know if you can, can you play a double edged sword? I don't know. Oh. Music is a really powerful thing that is within us. I think we've got a heartbeat, our heartbeat, my heart beats for Jesus and serve as yours. So that's the first rhythm that we hear. Yeah. And then the next river will be the sounds that we hear when we're growing up. So it will be the music of nature. So it's the the wind in the trees and the sound of Yeah, I don't know. Life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if you go back to David's day, when they had no electric they had no ways. Love the instruments that we got today. The music was just on stringed instruments in our string all made for human hands. Well, that our brother Chris Mellon, that plays that ram's horn in the chauffeur Hall
Leya:another any that makes me smile.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Wow It makes me Leave me boats I'll leave a float for off the floor when he cracked that one that is so powerful those boats a Rams home,
Leya:you saw the things that we find in nature.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's really interested in it. But that is so symbolic in Israel. You know, such a powerful, beautiful, beautiful sound coming out of national
Leya:natural sound in it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Leya:I mean, I've heard that David's first album was amazing. Music. No, it was amazing guys, but it was amazing. The second one won a lot of awards, but we'll never get to hear it. Because it couldn't have ever been recorded because there was no electricity.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But how was all the kings entertained and all that music is all the way through music and dancing, music and dancing. So David would trot down with his lawyer or his art underneath
Leya:his arm? Yeah, music stand in the hour.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, kind of sticks
Leya:on his back. Yeah. It was a one man band. Did he ever drum? Yeah. As he walked down the stairs with Bob
Reverend Ben Cooper:face to Bosque train station. Baskin brother David. Yeah, music is great. Music is powerful.
Leya:It unifies us as well. That thing on a Sunday, we've spoken about before when you're singing with other but I love it at any concert, any gigs. Go to anything. If you're sitting in with your friends and you start singing and they sing along to it's great feeling. Yeah, but when you understand that in a church singing with 50 other people. And you all feel in that sincerity in that way in your heart and that love Yeah, who Oh, wow, what a feeling.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What a flame how for music and singing. Yeah, but then it that transfers into worship. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, yeah, transfers, so
Leya:everybody's smiling. Because this is amazing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. It's so powerful. So so powerful. You know, we've run out of time. It's gonna run out.
Leya:Is it again? Yeah, well, we got to go and do some dancing now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm gonna have a music lesson.
Leya:I'm going up Swanley center, and I'm going to start dancing to you playing the guitar.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll tell you what, we'll starve. pious to think
Leya:about if I play the guitar, and you dance. They'll still pay us
Reverend Ben Cooper:to go that David might get chucked out as a minor. What's that Vicar, just his collar? Are you gonna wrap this up? Because this is this is getting close to the line. Well,
Leya:brilliant podcast really enjoyed this one. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Everybody.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We want big ourselves off. So
Leya:now Well, I'm doing if Jesus didn't come on, lay
Reverend Ben Cooper:out. We thank you so much for going around the mics. And we appreciate your gifting the really great gift. And you know, and there are so many people out there that are so gifted in many different areas
Leya:you tell you to. Everybody in this church has gifted but there's a certain river Maven and musicality to the way that you give sermons and everybody will agree with me. That's the truth. You like to clap your hands?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, yeah. Like
Leya:it's all it's all part of the rhythm of the words. Beautiful words. Scripture say? Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:scripture. Don't get me a singer
Leya:say I know you don't like compliments, but I'm laying one on you there. Okay, thank everybody for listening to us on this lovely Saturday morning. You have been listening to Benjamin Leonard Cooper and
Reverend Ben Cooper:Leia, Jane. Thank you. So sure more.
Leya:You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music, I Heart Radio, Google Play, Alexa, Facebook, Instagram,
Reverend Ben Cooper:YouTube. And so many more. Have a great weekend. Stay safe, you know, keeping social distance in But more than that, stay under the blood of Jesus. He
Leya:that's in sorry. Good. No.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Go have a great day.