Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:01

Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast and Elim church in swanley. And you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper, and we have Chris Millin in the house with us today, he's just finished work, he's just dropped off the M 20. m 25. Just dropped in on us, and we're just doing this quick podcast and we just said to each other we're going to talk about, we said, we don't know. But it's always Jesus, it's music. It's Jesus. And we just been honestly been speaking about what is happening across the world with the vaccine and everything, the control and that, but obviously, all you guys and gals that are listening through these podcasts, as we done last week, we were speaking about music. And that is what we got on our heart music and how I just said to Chris, and I believe at this moment in time, that God is using music to to help and to guide and to strengthen people. I honestly believe that but we're gonna have an interest in chat. And honestly, this is we don't know where this is really going is no, no agenda. There's no papers on the on the table. But all there is on the on the table is two swords. Two words, two Bibles, two Bibles. And

Chris Millin: 1:13

that's the best thing to ever.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:14

Do. You know, what, Chris, how important is it to be in the Word of God, so important when we see what's happening? When we see what's happening around the globe, now, Chris had a really interesting scripture earlier on, and he's just open the word up. Let's see what we got.

Chris Millin: 1:30

Let's just go word I was gonna read was, well, I was praying a little while, just a short while ago, and God gave us Islam, and gave us a picture of like, a sofa, which is beautiful embroidery, and we were talking about God's word, yes. And it was like God was saying, I am I am building a tapestry of my word, as my people come together, in my name and speak my word and, and recite my word. And learn my word and it as it becomes part of us, it becomes a place that we can rest and attend to the Scripture. In Hebrews four, verse nine, it says, Therefore, there remains a rest for the people of God, for who you are, as entities rest has himself also ceased from his work as God did from his. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the Word of God is living, a powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the division of sound and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the faults, and the intense of our hearts

Reverend Ben Cooper: 2:42

as beautiful, sharper than a double edged sword, the Word of God. And I think that where we sit today, this is a time when all of our literature has got to go out the window. And it can only be the Word of God that guides us where we sit in this crisis. I like to refer to where we sit in at this moment, I know the world's talking about COVID-19 art, I keep referring to it as a plague. I believe it's an n time fuel fueled play that is getting the attention of the body of Christ, the church, the establishment, seeing where we actually sit spiritually with Christ, are we actually for him? Are we for government? Are we leaning into what a government is doing? Are we leaning into what the word is saying, you know, we are living in a time where we've got to be spiritually diligent, we've got that I do believe that we can't run into anything that man is offering us without serious amount of thought, and more above the fold prayer, and bringing it into line with God's word. I feel that this it's really important for believers to seek God for making any snap decisions. A snap decision is not the time. We're not. But society is making us make snap decisions in what we do. And I do believe we got a hold tight to the word.

Chris Millin: 4:10

Yeah, absolutely is. Ultimately, he's His Word. And God's decrees are the last word, he's the final authority. And in going back to governments, you know, God tells us to pray for the government and to pray to bless those people who are in governments, there must be there must be many people in the government who are just as confused as anybody else about what's actually going on. But we know ultimately, yeah, that behind all of this, yes, changing of briefcases and shaking of hands in darkened corridors, is a spiritual forces which is at work. Yeah. And as the as the word sighs to us in Revelations 12. It says a war broke out in heaven.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 4:56

Come on, let's have it.

Chris Millin: 4:57

Michael and his angels fought with it. Dragon and the dragon and his angels fought but they did not prevail a nor was a place found for them in heaven anymore. So that great deck dragon was cast out that serpent of old called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast to the earth and his angels were cast with him to save our world, right, but for us with john hears a loud voice saying, Now salvation and strength and the Kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ has come for the accuser of our brethren who accused him before I got there, night has been cast down, and they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives unto death.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 5:44

The word that I pick up in that is delusion, deluded, misguided, you know, when you look at that we are living in a time where manatee almost doesn't know what to believe. But it's just following it. I think we're living in a time where the mass of the mass follow the mass. But you follow the mass? And you got to be Why am I following the mass? Why am I leaning into what they're doing? You know, trying to find that a place to be still and know that he's God, I believe for me at this moment is very difficult. Trying Now when I say finding the truth, not because I lack in faith, but because of the chaos around me, as a believer in Christ, take away all the labels that church puts on us. But as a believer, just looking around during a free 60 turn, and thinking, what do I believe? What do I trust? What path do I go? What do I do as a believer? So the first point that I must always reference is God's word. And we know that and then there's that big issue of where do you actually sit in the timeline of his return? Are we at the beginning of birth pains as the horse has been released, blah, blah, blah, all the stuff that goes along with that. But Christ made it very clear. And he said, Look out for the signals, the signals he tells, tells us what the signals will be assigned to where we sit. So everything at the moment is global. Global, is happening all around the world. I've never seen this before we live obviously. And just just bouncing into the subject that we we've been chatting about philosophy, music, music, I really believe now is so important. Because music lifts us worship lifts us. So when we put worship, and when we put praise in the time of strain and pain and worry, and maybe not not a clear direction, worship will give us freedom. Worship is a powerful Can I use it as a word of weapon? Have I Got that? Right? Can we call it? Is it is it safe to call that our? Well?

Chris Millin: 8:05

I would say so. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 8:06

That there is power in price. Yeah. For sure.

Chris Millin: 8:12

Prayer, praise praises is is a declaration of faith. Yeah. And the word teaches us that as you know, as we praise him for his promises, yeah, it kind of activates him to do those promises. Yeah. It's a it's not just that, uh, yes. Amen. I believe you, but it's a declaration Dekho right. Praise God, I praise God that, that he works all things together for the good of those who love Him. You know, and out of this current crisis, crisis, crisis type atmosphere is in the hole. Yeah, many people are drawing close to God and are growing exponentially that they never done before in a relationship with him. Yeah. And that there are wonderful things that that are coming out of, of the darkness. And again, the Bible tells us again and again, you know, that dark situations, you know, when dark situations come his his rise, he says, a rise and shine. Yeah, the glory of the Lord is upon you that deep darkness covers the whole earth. And worshiping God, when we worship God, it's not necessarily knowing what is around the corner. No, but when but we now we trust that that he does know what's around the corner. And right up to to the last moment we're on this earth. He's he's got his act. He's got good things planned for for his children, but those who love Him and follow Him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:47

So worship needs to be at the beginning of my not lack or is not lack of faith. It's not that it's uncertainty of What to do in it when your back is pushed against the wall. And the psalmist says when I was pushed back and about to fall, he caught me. There are decisions that Christians have got to make, whether it's for the job or not for the job, whether it's for business or not for business, whether it's to stay in a workplace or not, the decisions that believers have got to make, do I stay in that denomination? Or do I leave that denomination? The decisions I really believe that we are facing as Bible believing Christians, we are obviously we've never faced these decisions before. And what decisions we make will change the rest of our life. And I believe it's one choice. You can't go. It's I'll try it, because there are certain decisions that we are going to make, that are going to affect our body. There are decisions that are going to affect us for the rest of our life, whether I stay in that workplace, whether I stay in that that denomination. It's it's geographical stuff, it's spiritual stuff. And the only way that I'm going to find a clear answer I know is in Christ. But along with that is, is when I read about battles in the Old Testament, it worship is is in the forefront as well, isn't it? praise and worship. When when I might not be at remember a scripture when I might not be hearing from God. And I do believe as well, that we've had a lot of hype and a lot of false prophets, false teachers, false Avengers, all that keep saying they're hearing all the time. And then there's suddenly I'm in a position where I'm not actually read anything. I'm not hearing no voice, I'm not seeing no angelic activity. When I say All I've got is a word, that's all I need. But, but I'm start starting to rely on him in a different way. And we we have a world in the church that is so connected to God, but was it really connected to God? Or is it just hype? And was it money driven, prosperity driven, and God has told me this, God has told me that and this and this, and when we see it across the world, and then suddenly, for me seeking his face, I'm not hearing anything. That can be quite a frightening place to be on it. Because I've been brought up in a culture and our denomination and the evangelical church where God is speaking to everybody. But I can't hear him. What do I do? I praise Him, I praise Him, I get into worship or get into praise, I'll get into the word, because he has spoken to me by his word, so I've got 1000s of years of God speaking through His Word, and he's still the same yesterday, today and forever more. But I need to be careful that I don't get caught. Everybody else is having a word from God. I can't hear but actually, what I need to do is to seek the Scripture. And He will speak through His Word. But in the evangelical world of the church, we're hearing people saying God said, God said for a voice, when a safeguard of what god are you hearing from is in the Scriptures, Genesis to Revelation. So I do believe there are many believers that might be like me, that are being stretched, never like never before in their hearing. What you're saying, Lord, what you're saying, what you're saying, and the only one getting the answer is to read it, to read it, and God guides us to Scripture, but then the signs of the time speak. But worship is key. Worship is key. Is what you got there for us

Chris Millin: 14:10

in Psalm 25. You know, it says in verse 14, and I read the Scripture, and then and then put it into context. So it says there's a private place with this is the passion that says there's a private place was for the lovers of God, where they sit near him and receive revelation secrets of his promise. Well, of his promises. Yeah. And that that is just a, you know, that is just an invitation an invitation invitation. Yeah, God to come to put the mobile phones down, put the devices then make an appointment with him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:51

Yeah.

Chris Millin: 14:53

To go and just curl up and listen, listen to us, and draw close to him. Yeah, and and If we if we take him up on that invitation

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:02

we got

Chris Millin: 15:02

Yes, he's not going to not turn up, he'll be there. He's there, he will be there. And as we as we allow ourselves that space, let me know the very first scripture we read tonight was about entering into his wrist.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:14

And that is kkk. Sounds important, isn't it?

Chris Millin: 15:17

Because without, without that read in, in that time of rest, if we make decisions from that place of rest, you know, then they're going to, they're much more likely to be godly, from from the front, from the front of the head, to be led. You know, from his heartbeat, a word, that word that someone brought this week during some prayer times. is, is a Jewish word, and it is Durbar shalom. The bar literally means the word or the sword of the Spirit,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:51

obviously, tion on

Chris Millin: 15:52

Yeah, is peace. So that really speaks in into all of this as well. The pace of his word, you know, spoke about things being in order. Yeah, I haven't got the exact reference in front of me, but Dunbar chalon

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:09

powerful stylus isn't turnabout Pisa, I do have peace, I'm not stressed, I'm freaking out and panicking about all that I do have peace. But it's like I'm observing, observing things that I've never observed before. I'm seeing things and I'm trying to be still unknown, and trying to praise him in the valley experience and just just let him praise breakthrough. Praise is so powerful music is so powerful. And we can be in rest, can't we but still praise Him. Because when you when you're in worship, you get peace. So when we say in his rest, I believe that that means to rest in him in our airway, maybe through worship through to word just a bit sitting to be still. So there are a few ways we can look at that isn't then to rest in him. People find absolute ultimate peace through listening to music and praising him in their most hardest time. Some people will just sit and just shut down and not even open the word but just sit down and just praise Him quietly within there being some people will just will just just sit and read the word and just go into prayer. So rest is within him, isn't it. So that's where we find peace. So it's not so much just sitting there doing nothing and saying, Lord, wait for you to show up and walk through the wall. It's just worship word, being still as in prayer for and just, but also are getting that word that's popping him buzzing around in the heart is be a watchman be a watchman you know when you look at what watchmen was a female watchman in the dark, because you're going by faith your guy and by what you're what you're picking up the environment. And I believe that's what the we as believers, however, we look at that in this end times have to be watching and picking up through the spirit of what's happening, not necessarily with our eyes. Because our eyes are seeing so much it that's bringing confusion. So your natural, natural vision, your natural hearing, is we're hearing everything is just going against it everything governments are going against governments, politicians in the same groups are going against each other. Governments are making statements and then changing the statement. So what I see with my natural eyes, and what I'm picking up in my ears, is bringing confusion to my brain. So then I've got a switch from my brain and my thinking to spiritually being a watchman watching

Chris Millin: 18:49

this. Yeah, I'd agree with that as well.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:53

That come that drops into faith drops into the thought pattern. They're in the heart there, doesn't it. So to rest in Him, we could almost bring that watchman element out of that because we're still and we're watching and we're waiting, but we're in his rest.

Chris Millin: 19:13

Like it says, and he shows us things in his rest, you know, sit near him and receive the revelation secrets of his promises. And the watchman doesn't come like it with confusion. He's not a god. We know that God's not an overlay of confusion, hate and the watchman if he if he comes and brings a word of warning, yeah. He doesn't bring it out of confusion and chaos. He comes from a place of peace because because he's entered at rest and he's seen those things in that rest. mess right

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:45

now. I've got a scripture to Timothy chapter three mark one first. Now what where we sit is very close to end times, whatever way we look at that. So to Timothy chapter three First one through to five says, but mark this there will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves lovers of money boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying its power, have nothing to do with such people. So that scripture alone clearly tells us that as we look outside the window of life, all those that have been mentioned in that text we can see happening across our towns and our streets, across government platforms, ungrateful one wholly without love. Everything feels very robotic, no loving year. No. And I'm not talking about the sapi. Chuck away, I'm talking about that, that camaraderie that that you know, that you've got each out there is that it just feels like there's this lockdown is brought a hardness is brutal, hardness has brought a hardness and is brought of fear. And then as for children being disobedient to their parents, that is just days just some minefield on its own lovers of money. While we got these billionaires buying up all this land everywhere, accumulating all this stuff, what is the hidden agenda? The Great reset that we keep hearing them beating the drum? Why is Europe pull back on what they're pulling back on at the moment with the vaccine? There's this war, political war political agendas and, and you know, it's like, there's just so much happening. So trying to find rest, in the end times, is that you really got to see Jesus.

Chris Millin: 22:14

This is like never before. This is the only thing that is that we know without a doubt is that is the truth, and fallible and reliable. Yeah, this other information that we've been swamped with

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:25

is, is making us unsteady, is making us react too quick. is a reaction that is like, I love it, or not ever. I do it. Yes, whatever, maybe. What what I've noticed Chris coming back to a bit of music is when we do what we do on on a Friday night. And as we're piloting and as God has moved in our area, and we do what we do in that form of worship, I've noticed that you come in and go cough and I've had a rough week this week. And then but fruit power of music, I see you get really peaceful through worship and for lifting up God and through praise him I watch you a lot and I'll watch and I'll see you get into this place of just freedom in worship. You do that very easily. So you come out of the carnage you come out the skipper life you come into the Lord's house we sat and do what we do. We get moving we get rolling and then suddenly I just see you just go into this this different Chris this Chris that is just getting peace from music. So music is a key isn't it? And I'm we're talking about worship for music. We're not talking about the other side of the cross music. We're talking about faith for God driven because worship does put us into a place of, of calm of peace. So that can be an area of rest for some people, because I see you you've mentioned that word rest out the Scripture and I analyze and I watch you time and time Friday after Friday after Friday and you work and you do what you do and you come in and we set up we're doing we're doing but then suddenly I see this this rest just dropping upon you this piece so music is key

Chris Millin: 24:19

though yeah without a doubt Friday night for me is my is beginning my rest day alright. Friday, sunset to Saturday sunset. That so fun. To enter into worships come into the house and the Lord into and to just worship Him is just the most natural thing to do. It's it's never ever seems like work for me. It's like, right, let's go and enter the gates with thanksgiving. Let's go and come into heaven with a shout of joy and for me. He does you know that that's how I break in. That's how that's how I you know So that's that that was for all of us, you know, this is his This is the way the world teaches us, you know? And so to be able to do it on a stream and the way that we do means it's not just me jumping around in my front room. No, it's like, Oh, come on, everybody come into this holy sanctified hallelujah praise party. Yeah, we're come to celebrate his name. Yeah, you know, we come to celebrate, we might not know x, y, Zed, we might be a bit iffy about ABC. Yeah, the F and G. And what Frank says, and what john says, and all the rest of it was on this channel, that that YouTube, whatever, whatever. But what we do know is that God is good. What we do know that he is suffering, amen. What we do know is that he knows that they ultimately knows the end of the story is read a bit of it out for us in His Word. And we know that we can never, we can never go wrong by going in that direction of just laying ourselves before before I mean, I just bring in a sacrifice a price to him, and he loves he shows us that he loves it by making us feel good as we do it, you know, he just blesses us. In all those different forms of praise and dance and worship that we that we bring to him,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 26:10

he made an interesting point that it's not work, not work is it? worship is not work. And so if if it becomes mechanical, and very stage driven, and very driven by the world way, that becomes a job, doesn't it? But praise is a natural way to express your love to God. So you can never label it as work Kenya. So you might have had the hardest, toughest time or week and everything that's happening on and going on in the world that when you come into the Lord's house, or like you said you could be in front row, it could be anywhere where music hits that spiritual place in your innermost being and you start to praise him and worship Him. Music is powerful, isn't it? how it changes your look at things as well? Well,

Chris Millin: 27:07

we know by his words going back to his word again, that everything came into being through the sound of his voice in the beginning was the word

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:19

Yeah,

Chris Millin: 27:19

the Word was with God was God God you know when I when that when scientists split the smallest atom Yes. Something a few years ago to find to discover what was inside that what was inside it was sound waves. Yes reinforces the word again, everything is held together by His Word and His Word is sound. And so when we decide to use sounds to worship Him and to praise him, we're tapping into something there we're tapping into another realm. Yeah, a supernatural realm where by all right, she should be tied in asleep right now by actually actually jumping about your jumping.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:01

Like spring chicken.

Chris Millin: 28:03

Exactly. Right. And of course the world's the world's counterfeit offer for that. Exactly. who's taken a bit of this to a bit of that?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:12

Yeah, yeah, but we're double there.

Chris Millin: 28:14

Yeah, all of that and and that might look good or feel good, you know, for you know, on a fast foods scale. Yes. But then all comes all the side effects and After Effects that that brings and and isn't isn't and you're never you're never you're you're denying yourself of the full of the full price. Yeah, you're taking a counterfeit prize. But if you go down that road, and and and take substances to get there, you're, you're not you're not going to get there, you're not going to get they're

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:45

not going to get the reach that call that you think you're going to go through the darkness. And it might seem right but

Chris Millin: 28:52

oh great and wonderful at the time, but it's gonna take three days to recover from it. And what have you got to show for it, you know, you're knackered from

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:02

your body's not

Chris Millin: 29:03

after effects of the counterfeit are terrible,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:06

terrible, and then it becomes addictive. And then you've been trapped. But when your worship God after a hard day, after a hard way after a moment, but I believe the church needs to enter into a worship position that he's never been into before is complete surrender. But there's a lot of worship bands in the church Forgive me that are manufactured or manufactured. They look good. He's answered him, she's pretty. You know, this, that and it's almost mimicking and copying what the secular world is doing. But worship is is within everyone. And you don't need to be a musician because you are an instrument of God. You are a child of God. And, and and it's just expressing it. Expressing but, you know, far Gosh, music just changes everything on both sides of the crust, isn't it? Yeah, it's driven. So it's a driver, it drives your being. So when we're living where we live to Timothy chapter three, and what Chris has brought out about rest, worship, than praising God, in hard times, and trying to find a decision in the world that is so chaotic, when governments around the world are saying the opposite things and disagree in and then agree in, and then Friday out and bringing it back and, and shops are closing, and this is happening, and that's out there. Where are we going to find the truth in God's word, it's rest, it's finding peace in His Word, and sit in and being still. But I do believe that, that believers, all of us need to enter into a different type of worship, of being free, and not worrying about who's around anymore. Not worrying about fitting in with the culture, but just just expressing how you love God and how, and just through just through lifting your voice and just praising him, praise him because I watched you do what you do on Friday. And I see that that you get peace, I see that you get peace through expression of worship. About a time ago, I'm one o'clock is a different Chris. You know, so he changes doesn't it? It changes you'll

Chris Millin: 31:31

be in the presence of God, isn't it? We've been transformed by the renewing of our minds, you know, as we hire, we look forward to doing the Friday the Friday, Friday nights. On Saturday morning, I'm like us, you know how many days to Friday, because because it's it's just I know, I felt my ribbon

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:51

be finished driven by God.

Chris Millin: 31:53

And it's an it's a, it's a community thing is, you know, it's us four or five, however, is in here, where every man is near streaming, and it's those people who connect and, and, and stop, you know, responding with scriptures reacting with, with with things that they've that they've felt, or seen during, during their times of worship.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:18

Some music is a vehicle to get us spiritually away from fear, isn't it?

Chris Millin: 32:24

It is in a way it was for it was for so yes, God sent an angel spirit to torment. So the only thing that would relieve give him relief from this spirit was the sound of music played by none other than David who was to be his his proof. He was

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:42

making him jealous. It was Muslim, jealous. funny when you think about that,

Chris Millin: 32:46

yeah, so was, he was the one who bought the presence of God by praising God with his instrument. And the that is there is an important key there because we know that Satan can't dwell in the presence. Now he can't he can't. He can't dwell in the presence of Christ, who was the sin this one. And when we praise God, His presence comes, wow, God's presence comes. And so if God's presence is there, and like, you know, all that light, you know, Satan's demons like to let dwell in the darkness. What we've all that light around, they just disappear.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:26

Yeah, I don't. It's an interesting scripture that you brought up there. Because God brought that that evil presence, that evil spirit upon so

Chris Millin: 33:37

interesting

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:37

that then the anointed one comes into the palace into the room, and plays the anointed young shepherd boy, the anointed king to be whose aggravating soul as well in a certain way, whose great friends with his son, Jonathan, and there's young David, wherever he was, at that point, just playing music on a heart lie or whatever, that whatever that was stringed instruments. But as you said that God brought that evil spirit. Soul needed to hear music, but when the music was playing, he got pace.

Chris Millin: 34:23

Yeah, there's this as the spirit left him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:26

It's just gone. Just move on, just moves on. He was agitated, he was frustrated. It was all the things that was going on, but the Anointed One walks into this place and plays on the strings instrument and then peace enters. So that is a key thing to understand that if I'm finding myself aggravated, frustrated, and I can't even concentrate on a scripture, I can't concentrate on prayer. Get some get some music around me. Because it breaks it breaks the darkness doesn't hate breaks, it breaks Very interested in the music that we're exploring. A lot of that has no vocals and lyrics to it does it. But and he mentioned something about sound waves, waves of powerful you know, so there's this element that you might not be the there's some music you're listening to that doesn't have any words over that, but he's bringing you into a position of peace that fascinates me as well, that it's not always the music that gets you to a place actually has any lyrics over there. But when the music plays and you start to praise him, you're putting words over the music, a suddenly that that track or whatever it may be, is just instrumental becomes

Chris Millin: 35:51

the vehicle as a vehicle

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:53

is because the person is put in the Word of God and their expression over that. So that becomes a very unique piece that has that hasn't been recorded that hasn't been manufactured in a recording studio. But at that moment in time, it will never be played back again, that moment is, is taking you into the cult of praise. So music, without lyrics and vocals is powerful on its own, but then put, put praise. And what I mean by praise is, even if you sung Psalm 23, and just quoted scripture, then suddenly that that music suddenly is turned into a more of a powerful instrument and a weapon to get you the individual into that place. So that Chone that you could be playing has no words over that. But it's the same sound waves coming out. But each person in the room is putting their own word in over that. So that becomes very individual can run into that is very personal. Because no one else is putting what you're putting over the top of that at that particular point. So that brings that into intimacy. denin never be repeated, never be seen again in the same way never be played in the same way again, ever. That is just a very precious moment. But when you've got something that's been manufactured in a room, recorded and pulled out the bag, yes, it's anointed but but there is something very different, unlike notice in lately about when music is played. And then word scripture is put over overlaid the music day so powerful, but that will never be repeated. Because that's your own expression, in your own time of God. So music is a way forward. A very big powerful way forward. Music with a word

Chris Millin: 38:13

of voice of God was it was that when you add the word of God to music is dynamic and powerful.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:23

There is and I'm saying it. I'm actually seeing it on a Friday we what we're doing, I see it or watch it. I see it. I see it. I see I see that. And it's changed my understanding and thinking and the way that I was manufactured to think what Christian worship should be because a B and C bands are doing it. So it has to be like that. And now I can understand why I never got into that worship or position like others because it wasn't. It wasn't wasn't for me. It wasn't my expression. Yeah, it sounds good. It looks good. It's lovely. And it makes me feel a little bit jolly. But it wasn't taken me right into the throne room. Because it was manufactured in no way possibly for financial reasons for labels for man's gain. But when we do what we do on a Friday, and God's word is overlaid and laid on top and in and through that oh my goodness, like when you put them preachers that you drop them preachers into that are mega EQ filter, you can feel the roof lifting, you can feel the you can feel the atmosphere, the air, there's something in this house that changes when the gospel message has been preached and put over the top of music. You can feel and you can see everybody's reaction to that. You think Oh, hang on. There's a there's a gear change. But when you've got Christian music I'm not not saying anything against it the the the artists that bring it but I'm starting to see there is a difference there is a difference between I do believe a lot of Christian worship as well has been driven by natural feelings rather than by a spiritual drive so I'm starting to see things that I never thought I would ever see and start to understand maybe a little bit more why that Christian band or that Christian artist never got me to that place that I thought it would be but I'm sick because of what's happening on a Friday I was seeing that scripture over over it is more powerful than man's word over it. Yeah, it is but it's powerful stuff music is powerful scripture a music so talking about Saul and David what to have in the in the in the arena together David walks in all glowing and anointed solo wrinkly sitting there all frustrated as a boy but the music the music changed the atmosphere and that's what we need in this nation. God driven music to change the atmosphere the music the melody of heaven

Chris Millin: 41:29

that's interesting what what you were saying that in all your walkways we've got a lot of that worship music didn't really get you to where you didn't get you to that place. Yeah. Which is quite interesting. And and that's one of the reasons why that's one of the one of the purposes of this because there are you know, we'll we'll have different types of music that we like Yeah. And without speaking any slur against any genre of music. If you come into the kingdom and you're not into soft rock you got to make you've got to make sacrifices Yes, that's Yeah, 90 something percent of worship music when you say Christian worship music, that's what you're gonna get. Yeah, that genre of music if you feel when I came into the kingdom, that wasn't my cup of tea. But I loved Jesus. Yeah. And I felt Christ in the music and I was like, okay, you know, I'm going to I'm going to use this music to get to my savior because now I just want to worship him and love him and I'm going to join with all these people and I've got that but but it makes it a lot easier if you've come from a scene which is you know, your own listen to house and Drum and Bass for instance. It's It's It's a bit more of a push to to then change your home or say that and for me that wasn't it wasn't a problem but but for but but why would Why should we discount this music as well to worship our father from this is the music that I grew up with? This is music that is all around me? Why do I have to change my sense of music? style of music? To worship my father? Why can't I worship him with this music? I've been told is the devil's music.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:19

How many times have I heard that strap line beg to differ I've really beg to differ.

Chris Millin: 43:25

And what you're saying about God's You know, this preachers coming over the music often music instrument and music especially is very powerful in itself. And adding adding the voice of God adding the Word of God to it kind of activates it. I believe that God's in a lot of music. Yeah. And more more than we give him credit for, you know, in when people compose music, you know, they often hear sounds whether it without sounds come

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:53

with a sound come from

Chris Millin: 43:56

for another, I'm sure but, but, you know, adding the Word of God to those sounds and rhythms, you know, is sometimes explosive.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:07

Yeah. You said you said it again. He said my spirit picked up on how many people in a culture church go that's a devil's music. Well Hang on a moment. It's it's let's take a house that's got no vocals over it. Why is that? The Devil's music?

Chris Millin: 44:28

Because in the in the in the mindset is a slideshow littered with dark, seedy behavior. So if you test the image that is that's the image. But that's not necessarily that's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:39

not necessarily

Chris Millin: 44:41

always. So

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:43

if you took what we was just talking about when I said that, that that Christian music never took me to that place that I needed to get to. But when you look at what David was bringing into Seoul, there was no Christian labels about he was bringing music So he was just bringing music. He was bringing music on stringed instruments, and all and all that that they had before. So he had no Christian labels, no record levels, nothing existed at that point. So what was he bring into soul? He was bringing soft sounds on stringed instruments to a degree. And then what what was he putting over the top of that? That's the question that we've got, isn't it? Do

Chris Millin: 45:40

we know he may have died? No,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:42

son. But then we come back to the question is, why do people call it the devil's music? Because they don't understand. And they have got this mindset of, as you said, and as we all know, a dark place. Sorry, it's got to be the devil. But how many times have you mentioned to me and now I'm realizing in my time when I've gone to where I've gone to when that nightclub DJ puts on that music? How many times have you worship God? In the dark den? uncountable times,

Chris Millin: 46:20

lots of times.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:22

So just because it might be in that environment, doesn't mean to say that you can't praise God? No,

Chris Millin: 46:29

that's 100%. Right. I've been in the most serious environments. You know, of all sorts of things going on, gone going on. And yet God has given me a God has made a space for me in the music. With with my eyes closed? Yes, I am just in his presence.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:47

So you're worshiping your worship pin in the dark, dark place.

Chris Millin: 46:53

And the wonderful thing about that is that when you when when you when you open your eyes, everything looks a bit different. The sudden you've got compassion for people that that you might have, you might otherwise have, have looked down on or, or, or component compartmentalized. Yeah, put me in some way, come out of the presence of God, you you recognize and realize that that all of these children, all of these people are children, where no matter what state they are in, they're still God's children. And he still actually loves them. Yeah, you know, and so what, what better placed to come with the good news of the gospel then, to the, to a place like that, I'm not suggesting that everybody packs up their suitcases what we're not worshiping in touch anymore. We're going to go and worship in a nightclub. That's not the point. The point is that if you're in that dark place yet with another, you know, with somebody else who is a believer, you know, you can bring worship to the dance floor, you can bring it and if you're worshiping on the dance floor, God's presence has come in, and it opens. People want to know, they want to know what's your story, they usually think that you're taking drugs, yeah, why you want to know what you're on. But being in a worshiping God like that, you're in his presence. And being in God's presence, sometimes you just glow, or there's, there's something about you, that attracts people to talk to you in the light. That's,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:23

that's the power of the light in the dark place. So he's really interested in the power of the sound wave. But what you put over the sound wave is either for Christ, or for Lucifer, just two ways, isn't it? That the sound wave is out there as a baseline. And it's even gonna go heaven or hell, it's. So it's what you put over the music. It's the word in not the not the vibe, because that's a sound wave. So it's what what lyrics on what word in the has put been put over the instrumental that will ever drive you to Christ or drive your way from Christ is interested in that you could have the same same instrument or piece of music. And you could enter with Scripture over the top of that and be absolutely taking you up to the highest worshiping praise, but then take that and give it to someone else that is not of walking with Christ, that is a satanic worship, ah, and they could use the same instrumental piece, but to worship the other side. So it's the lyrics. It's the word in that is laid over the top. That makes the difference.

Chris Millin: 49:47

For me, that's not as bad as what I do other people yet do all of that in the studio. Yes, and make a finished piece and then play it themselves or give it to other people to play. But there is there's also Of course, lots of grand in the middle, where people might not be thinking to themselves, I'm worshipping Satan or worship, literally worshipping Satan, but doing, making, you know, reinforcing these lifestyles that you've talked about in intuitively

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:19

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah,

Chris Millin: 50:21

you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:23

because when you listen to some of the secular staff, you can pick up very quickly what way it's going Katya. And also in the same, what you could say call in the same band, the secular music, but really is driven by God given men and women that have been gifted, the secular culture is singing really cuddly stuff. That is that has really impressed me over the last bit of time to realize that a lot of stuff out there as well, that is played in the clubs that he's played over the airways is really godly words. This is a bit of a showstopper. Sometimes when you think about how, how artists are using the god gifted men and women that have been given the gift of of music and vocalists and, and worship leaders. But they're also their work is in the secular world, but they're bringing the same music and the and the nightclubs are playing it. bouncing up and down. Not really grasping what the word is, but actually praising God when they don't in tend to. Because that can happen

Chris Millin: 51:40

in Australia.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:41

I've seen it and I can see it in my mind and thinking worrying is going on Chris, it's so it's the vast old discussion today. We've we've done like a bit of digging in some places there. We said what we're going to talk about, it's always safe to talk about Jesus. There's always saying the total battery Jesus. So I think just summing up what we got going on. I think we both agree on this, that where we sit at this moment in the world. praise and worship is key, isn't it?

Chris Millin: 52:13

outside? Yeah, is of course,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:15

it's gotta be, do you want to bring anything to the close and then we're just 75

Chris Millin: 52:20

and we just thank you for this time of being able to share your word and to share the things that you've taught us about about worship. And we pray you just continue teaching us and all those that are listening Father God and leading us into that, that that private place they met that you talk about that secret place father got away can hear the sounds of your hearts, Father God, and we can begin to worship you in sync with you Father God. Next walk next to you Father God, and your mighty name Jesus.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:57

Amen. Amen. Thank you so much everyone listening today, wherever you are on planet Earth. You've listened to Chrisman and you listen to myself, Reverend Ben Cooper here at Elim church. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify Apple Music, I Heart Radio, Google Play, Alexa, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and anywhere else. You will find us all over the place. May God bless you and strengthen you. You know, as we sit in this really powerful biblical days that we are pressing to Jesus, may God bless you and strengthen you and we will catch you very very soon. God bless