Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us here on our podcast. You're joining myself Reverend Ben Cooper and we have my good friend and my charm I can use that word charm, you know, I'm trying to be sensible to the end does try and keep it nice dog food you know? I know he will be quiet for too long. My good friend Steve. Steve was tanking. I can tell it's gonna be one of these but the subject that you bought today, you won't hear much again from me. You know, people must think it's great when Steve comes along because the Reverend Keep quiet. But now all all seriousness, we're looking at a real good subject today. And slavers come around cup of coffee, random mics, and we're having a great discussion before we click the Record button. But we just want to welcome everybody wherever you are around the world. We thank you so much for the shares and everything is going on. It's really good to have your feedback and everything you know, usual stuff buzzsprout, Spotify, Apple Music, I Heart Radio, Google Play, and Alexa and so many more. We just want to say thank you, for them platforms that we can push all this stuff out. And for those listeners around the world, we just want to say again, thank you from the bottom of our heart. We are in Elim in Swanley. And if anyone needs us for any reason, and Steve, you see us on two blokes in a Bible. And when he decides to pop up behind the pulpit, he preaches so and we gather and we're getting him to do some podcast, which is really good stuff. We're changing him to the mic, because he is loaded with info. No, no. Yes, he is. And he likes to argue. Now come on, Steve, let's get let's get in. And this is the big subject. And I gotta be honest here. It's a subject that blows over my head,
Steve Valler:no millennium, looking at to the Millennium and the new creation. This, it's the Millennium is somewhat of a controversial thing. The vast majority of Christendom to use that word, do not believe in the allinial reign of Christ yet most of them are you millennial. There are a group of post millennial, we'll get into describing it all. But the first century church up till about 185. And going through to the light, third century vital premillennialism. Okay, so people like Iran is Yeah, who was born about 130 went through for about 6070 years. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle john. And there were various other ones. But they all taught that there would be a millennium there will be a reign of Christ for 1000 years. And arunesh is very, very important. Because being born after the destruction of the temple, yeah. He then comes along, says, No, there's going to be another temple bill. He doesn't say that the Jews are going to build it. But he says, the Christians won't build it. So he left to go and build the temple. So also, I think there's a sense whereby there was no need for him to say it, because the Jews still worthy mine, informers of the gospel during that period of time. It only changed later, which we'll touch on later on. But the intriguing part about repeating today, so everything, you know, all all the prophecies that Jesus made in, say, Matthew 2423 24, they've all come into being they've all gone, at least people called pressure lists. So it's all done and dusted. Then you get your n is come along 60 years of born 60 years after the temple is destroyed. And so probably a man in his 30s in his 40s. So you're talking about 100 years on says, Well, no, there's going to be another temple. Jesus, he's going to come back. He's going to rain for 1000 years.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So is this what we seen revelation? Yeah, yes. Is this that Yeah,
Steve Valler:but you're also seeing the Old Testament is there's quite a few references in the Old Testament. And then you've got the the millennial people that basically they came along from around about that started probably around about 200 odd, but was really cemented into place with Augustine. Okay. Augustine was trying to deal with some hair, Harris's at the time. And prior to these things that he was confronted and he he was a pre millennialist but then he started ducking and diving and trying to Their wedding season became an iron millennialist. Basically, it switched. Yeah, and yeah, I will Elio is basically ended up by allegorize things. So when it comes down to the 1000 year, when 1000 years isn't really 1000 years, it's just representative of the rule of Christ during the church age.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay, so they they're taking the actual timespan out of it. Yeah. They're not disagreeing with what's happening in the crux of that. They're just saying the time is irrelevant. Is that what they're
Steve Valler:almost saying? No, no, no, because this they're saying that Jesus is raining at the moment. All right. Yeah. Okay. And that everything, as I say, they are close to a precious position in as much that they're saying, you know, a lot of what was prophesied that has already happened. Already, if the devil has been chained up, he's on an awfully long chain long chain, why would somebody fix it anyway, our
Reverend Ben Cooper:government.
Steve Valler:So I say if you look at the Catholic Church, anything, any church which finds something of its roots in Augustine will hold to an IE millennial position.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right. Okay.
Steve Valler:But having said that, strangely enough, john MacArthur who is a reform minister, and he's he's right out on the wing of the reform, Priester. Press preached a sermon wanna go sign up, all Calvinists should be premillennialists. So he's flying in the face of what he's been received wisdom for many, many years. And also, when we look at someone like, Spurgeon had been very bold. Oh, yeah. He was a real dyed in the wool Cal Augustinian iron II used to be used to really use the wave this flag. When he was asked about the Jews going back into Israel, he said, Well, yeah, of course, I gotta go back. God says, I mean, he's Bible. So he was flying against the Soviet
Reverend Ben Cooper:front against it as well. Yeah.
Steve Valler:And so you have to be clear, you can't point everybody with the same bra. You can't. Alright. But normally, just as a rule of thumb, anybody, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England, people like that normally will find you'll find that they're a millennial. So there's this, it's kind of, it's an open ended when this age comes to an end, it comes to an end, right? Okay, then you got a post, post millennialist. But basically, they say, well, we're going to take the ball for Jesus. We're going to quote the board from become christianized, three similar to the a male position. Yeah, it's a little bit more aggressive. We're gonna take it, and then we're gonna say, Jesus come back, because we've done all the work for we've done it for you, Jesus. Yeah. But the problem about both of those positions, really, is that they deny the promises of God of God with the Jews. Yeah. Right. And with the IML, we come back to this allegory, all the blessings that weren't supposed to be for the Jews. Oh, no, they're now for the church. So you know, when it says, we are going to bless Israel, Israelis, the church, so
Reverend Ben Cooper:so they Yeah, okay. I say yeah,
Steve Valler:so everything is sort of on whilst we do inherit blessings through Israel. And there's no two ways about it. We do we do we have to be careful how far we go with it. So we ended up with
Reverend Ben Cooper:is that what we will call replacement theology as well, we may when they when they take the word Israel out. And they put my church to church. So okay, so the gathering that from that,
Steve Valler:and once you start down that road, you wind up eventually into anti semitism.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if he was to take Israel and replace it with the word church and the church, you don't believe in Israel.
Steve Valler:Now, Israel, God is faced with Israel, and therefore all the promises that were due to Israel, and now are going to come to the church, but there are certain promises in there that were the best one in the world. Yeah, don't bend and bend it. No, no.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And we see a lot of that I don't what you just said a really important word out of all that I've been listened to bending the word and we see so much of that. Now, don't wait. preachers and teachers band in it so much, that they believe what they they've been into. They only they've leaned themselves into a teaching that is incorrect. So this is, as we always say, is we got to come back to what does the word say?
Steve Valler:I mean, the reformers did a great deal, which was really good. But because of the situation the way they were developing at that time, there were certain writings which were not available to him because they were basically the Roman Catholics element. I got work I'll have a look at it. But people like Iran is and the early church fathers, you know, as I say, if you look them up until What? Well? What 85? Is it when you start seeing the allegorical aspect start, but you go right up into 200? Yeah, the late the late third century, and you've still got this premillennialism. But basically, it starts to change when the Jews not fall away. But when when there are less Jews in the church, and you've got more Greek thinkers, and they start getting into this platonic aspect, and they tried to put Plato and Christ together and you are not going to bring in a whole sweetshop of stuff together. Yeah, he just gets so ridiculous. It's it is ridiculous. And you get this allegory and this certainly, by the time you get to the the fourth, fifth, sixth century, that's it. You get you get to a point also where people if they do bring up this business, about the Jews being restored here, and God blessing the Jews. They there was I can't remember exactly what it was. But they said, will have nothing to do with the Jewish Miss. Oh, all right, because as far as we're concerned, all the promises to Israel, they now belong to us, God's finished with the Jews. And as you just trace through church history, you see that the anti semitism gets worse and worse. So over over the journey of time, it builds up
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, to where we are today.
Steve Valler:Yeah, you end up with someone like Luther, strangely enough, when he was saved, and realized, the salvation, grace through faith, but sorry, salvation through faith long, he decided that he's going to go out and preach to the Jews, you see, like you want to know, like a real bow, got a write up with him. He really did. And so a lot of his later writings were very anti some so he was
Reverend Ben Cooper:he was pushing it against,
Steve Valler:he got the glue. So you know, kind of for years, you've been persecuted as don't come around here until you go on your point. And so he, you know, oh, no. And as I say it built over a period of time until gradually. It wasn't until the probably the beginning of the 19th century, there there abouts, that premillennialism started to come back in. People started to review the words of God, we started to look at this president, we can't keep going with this replacement nonsense. Because at the end of the day, seriously, if we follow, and we're saying with the Word of God, yeah. It doesn't make any
Reverend Ben Cooper:sales doesn't add up. So could we say they found themselves a long way away from God's word, and then suddenly there was a move? Yes, sir. And get directed? Sharif?
Steve Valler:Yeah, certainly. In regards to the Jewish people, and yeah, and millennium.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And so you're talking about generations?
Steve Valler:Well, yeah. I mean, you know, you're all the way through. Yeah, from sort of, as I say, Augustine's 350 he was born near there abouts. So he started, he started putting his stuff together when 390 something like, possibly a little bit earlier. So let's, let's just take just a figure 400. Okay. All right. So you from 400, Id up to 1500. You've got 1100 years, 200 years before the reformers kick down a little earlier than that, but there are there abouts. And then you've got 1500 to it. And you've got another 300 years of basically it's it's still looking at an a millennial position. I mean, post millennial ism is very, it was a very light starter it was you won't find much weight in the early parts of the church. But premillennialism started again, as the same round about the beginning of the 19th century started in America also over here. People started looking at the Jews and realizing it wasn't all finished. And so it grew out of there. And if you look at some of the statements in the Bible, there are close to the fact that God really hasn't finished.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now he had no he hasn't.
Steve Valler:And one of them. I'll get on to the main ones with regards to Isaiah and so forth. But there's one little statement in Acts and it's right at the beginning of Acts. And if people would sit down and consider it. They are the disciples have gathered before the Lord. And act one and verse six, he says so when they have come together they asked him, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? He said to them, he is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. And you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. So they're asking, Are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel? Yes, if there wasn't going to be a restoration, he probably would have turned around and said, well, actually effect boys. That's
Reverend Ben Cooper:not going to happen. But he's made it clear.
Steve Valler:So is inferring that there's gonna be a kingdom. And he's saying, but don't you worry about it,
Reverend Ben Cooper:just not worry about worry about just concentrate on to
Steve Valler:concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I so humanistic. Is the human nature. Yeah. Shining God question. So that's a clear statement that we've got very clear there.
Steve Valler:Yeah. And the other one, and this is the one where when you read this, you start thinking, How on earth do you allegorize this one, you know, allegorize, this boys love this? Well, yeah, this is in Jeremiah 23.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Jeremiah chapter 23.
Steve Valler:And it says in verse five, Behold, the days of coming, declares the Lord, when I will rise up for David a righteous branch. And he shall reign as King and do wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his dies, Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the nine by which he will be called The Lord is our righteousness. They sit there and think, hang on a minute, can you allegorize that is a statement it is a bought
Reverend Ben Cooper:into text to versus a clear statement. Yeah, very clear. So tying up with what we just looked in Acts, the Bible is given us the truth. But for so many years, man wants to take it and put its own interpretation on it. And now we can see that what we've just been talking about, come so far away from it that mislead hundreds of 1000s of people. And my question is, how does God deal with that, for those that have misled, you don't worry about it, that's where we got to leave it. But you think all within PayPal and PayPal, then suddenly, there's a switch and a turn back. But the Scripture is just is that on the same yesterday, today and forevermore. And it says, and these days are coming declares the Lord, when I will rise up? up for David, a righteous branch, a king who will reign wisely. And then he goes on and says, and to do what is just and right in the land. In his days, Judah will be saved Israel. So it's mentioned in Israel, yep. It stays there. It's not coming out, will live in safety, or your your, what you're reading from security securely. It's, it's there, isn't it? This is it. So you've got to see a full stop. It's Yeah, you can't, you should
Steve Valler:ignore this what I'm trying
Reverend Ben Cooper:to think quickly on the feet, but I can't think quick enough think, how can you take that out? So there we have a classic example of replacement theology where someone is just literally blinded. Yes. They blind in themselves. Yeah. And they're going down their own path. So they're switching Israel, for church. Yeah, in a roundabout way. And believing that that all falls onto the church, I can see to a little degree, but we are the church, the blessings are always going to be before I found way, but not literally taking that and switching that around. That's different.
Steve Valler:The only way to get around this is by saying, Oh, no, the church is now Israel, which does not make any, any soap ever. And especially when you put it together with certain I mean, there are loads and loads of texts about the restoration of Israel. There are loads of ticks, and to try to bend every single one of them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. It's a nonsense, but that's what we're familiar with. Now, aren't we deceivers that are bending and manipulating and trying to take God's word out of context and making it fit for what they want to believe. And as the scripture says, there's nothing new under the sun. So this has happened for all these 1000s of years.
Steve Valler:I mean, the thing about the scriptures, there are things in there which you have to hold fast to. There are certain things that you have to hold fast. Yeah. Basic statements of fighting it wherever. Jesus Christ, Son of God, born to a virgin, lived, performed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Miracles, to a test to whom he was crucified for our sins. Died was buried rose God ascended into heaven, and he will come back, then your various other bits and pieces in here that we know of. But we end up dividing over stupid things.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. So someone listening, no believer or someone is looking and just listening to what what you're bringing in the clear statement of faith is just pretty simple. Yeah. And then we can we can spend almost a lifetime going down a road that we shouldn't be going down when we just come back to the basic fundamental truths of
Steve Valler:Scripture. It's like, if you look at people like the J W's and the christadelphians, and people, they'll argue whether Jesus is God or not. But if you look at the early church fathers, that's exactly why they said, No, it's exactly what they said, Jesus is God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That Yes, sorry, they made that a clear,
Steve Valler:clear statement of faith that Jesus is God hates all these people that come after, even if they want to rewrite the Bible, they've got a problem by dealing with these men with the the apostles, and who transmitted Jesus's teaching to them, and it was no secret to God, he's
Reverend Ben Cooper:no sales. Now, if nothing was hidden, well, nothing was always in the
Steve Valler:back, because at the time you had the Gnostics. The Apostle was sort of gave certain secret teachings. No, they didn't. And the apostle said, Nothing. I mean, john takes on the the Gnostics in his in his three letters. But you've got this whole situation of people now saying, Oh, Jesus meant this. And Jesus meant that and so on. So go back and read. The early church fathers said, just go back and see him. You know, there are certain things in there that you might disagree with, well, hey, tough, too bad. But the vast majority of them will hold tight to the word. Yeah. Because that
Reverend Ben Cooper:they come in back to the same thing. Every time we talk. Every time we hear one of you or myself preach is always when we're delivering something is Jesus to the center and the word is out and said,
Steve Valler:exactly, that's all it can be. I mean, it's good to read people like Wesleyan Spurgeon. And yeah, various people when you can get some insights. And it's all very good. So would you say to someone, but also be careful with extra biblical knowledge?
Reverend Ben Cooper:when you're when you're guiding, because we know that there's so many it's so much way off?
Steve Valler:Yeah. I mean, if you hold to the basic tenets of Christianity, like I say, Jesus is God. And so what I've already reiterated, then we start coming into the area of retirement of the rapture, the timing of this and the timing. Seriously, at the end of the day, it's got no bearing on your salvation, it has no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no flavors, it wasn't it was not what's the point trying to work calculate when it could be and how it's going to be or know how it's going to be, but what day is gonna fall on our,
Steve Valler:it's like, who's going to be the Antichrist? If you look at the writings of some of the early church fathers, they say that dand, the Antichrist is gonna come from the tribe of Dan, like, base this on, Jacobs, prophesy over Dan, and also various other things that came along. But they would say to you that that the Antichrist is going to come from the tribe of Dan. Now, I've heard people say, well, it might be that is actually going to be born in the area where Dan was placed by God, which is up in the north eastern section of Israel, which is up on the top of the Golan Heights and around now. And the Syrians and the Assyrians came in, and it was set in the era. And if you look at some of the prophecies that talk about the Assyrian in the land, it could be that he's going to be born in the area of Dane, which would mean he would be in a Syrian, if there antecedents will also be a danger if you trace it. But seriously, at the end of the day, we'll find out when we get there. We'll know. Yeah, we'll find out when we get there. Yeah. And so in the meantime, just get on with your life. Those things are interesting, but the number of people fall out.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, preachers and friends all fall out over that. Yeah. And it's like the enemy has done his work you've fallen out when just we just got to trust God in his in his fundamental truth and just not it's very easy I think to go off on a on a bit of a tangent, isn't it? You start studying to start reading your novel, and the reference goes a bit further and you go off we go on,
Steve Valler:suddenly, oh, I've chased down many rabbit holes. And it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:suddenly you feel like, Oh, I'm not meant to be lost what I was studying and I've actually got myself in a mess.
Steve Valler:But so look at the the Millennium or or the 1000 years The only time he's actually spoken up with regard or less the other point about the 1000 yet the early church fathers, when they asked when they when they spoke about it, they said, Well, look, God created heaven and earth. Yeah, six days. It says in the word, I think it's one day like 1000 years. 1000 years is like a day. So we're going to 6000 years of human history. Okay. And if you follow the line from Adam through, we are pretty close to 6000 years. And if you look at, I think, the Jewish, the Jewish baby at the moment is something like 5765 or something like that. If you go boy, you're seeing calendar, it's 5960 or something. Right? And it depends on which gown you they're slightly forward. Yeah, the same kind of like they don't use the different way of marking at times and stations and so forth. But we're coming up to that 6000 year mark.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So whatever way you look at that, both sides of that were close.
Steve Valler:Yeah. And so the way they looked at it was that this 1000 years, you're going to 6000 years, the seventh, which is going to be the Sabbath. Yes. Rest. Yeah. That's when Jesus that's that marks out the
Reverend Ben Cooper:man in the market,
Steve Valler:right, that marks the Millennium got 6000 years of upheaval, then you've got 1000 years of a Sabbath rest. Yes, right. But there's a little bit more to it than that. But that's the way they marked out. So they looked at 6000 years plus one, the seventh day, 7000 years. And that's it. So let's let's the way they looked at that. But in Isaiah, Isaiah 11. Lots of people will quote this, the lion lies they will elaborate you don't actually what he says here. Just prior to that, if I read from verse one, there shall come forth to shoot from the stump Jesse, and abroad from his roots shall be a fruit of the Spirit and law shall rest upon him. The spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel in mind, the spirit of knowledge, and the fear of the law. That's the seven fold spirit. And he's the light shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what is I see, or decide disputes by what he's he is here. But with righteousness, He will judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth. And remember that the meek shall inherit the earth, and he shall strike the earth with a rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips, he shall kill the wicked, righteousness shall be the bulk of his waste, and faithfulness to build these loins. The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fatted calf, or sorry the fattened calf together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow on bear shall graze the young, sorry, she'll graze the young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, the nursing child shall play over the whole of the Cobra, and the winged child shall put his hand in the den, they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be filled, shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Pack
Steve Valler:yet, but the holy mountain near, if you remember, Nebuchadnezzar, his dream, that there is a rock that comes down and smashes the golden, silver iron idols, and it replayer next in the mountain, is over all of the earth. So it's not just the mountain in Xi'an, as another teaching, but this is the whole of the earth. This has never happened. No. And what we're seeing here is, if you will, a restoration of the Adamic time when people did need animals, not just we look and read, God provided food from vegetation, seeds, and so forth. And so there's this restoration that has to occur, because it's never happened.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So this is the event that we're leading up to this event we're
Steve Valler:leading up to, and, as I say, reading prior to that gives you an idea of Jesus will rule with a rod of iron that pops up in other scriptures. We're not sure what the divine is going to be. But I think basically, at the present moment, because we're in a situation where, during the period of the church, the church preaches the gospel, and God and His grace and mercy does not bring judgment upon people. But there comes a point in the millennium, that all changes that changes the judgment, I think the rotavirus beats of judgment, and that judgment comes down. You know, because he said, if you remember it says that God did not send the Son into the world. out to the world but to save the world, when it comes a point when he does judge it, because there has to be there has to be a judgment advisement. Yeah, so, and he talks about judgment and stuff like that. So you've got this period of time, the Isaiah speaks of, of there. And as I speak, Isaiah isn't the only one I mean, you'll you'll find references to this in Hosea, and over Daya Zechariah, you'll find in lots of lots of the profits. So it's not just that, but the intriguing part. One of the other things I looked at is Isaiah 65, and 66, but we do the 65. One first. And that's verses 17, to 25. This is often used by scholars to prove that the Old Testament speaks about a new heaven and a new earth, much the same as revelation. Yeah. But if we read it in context, it's difficult to receive that and, for behold, I create new heavens and new earth, in the form of things shall not be remembered. All kinds of mind, but be glad to rejoice forever. In which I create for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy for people to be a gladness. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad with my people. No more shall be heard the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. And no more shall there be an infant who leaves a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his years, fill out his dice, for the young man shall die. 100 years old, and the center 100 years old shall be a cursed, they shall build houses inhabit them. The point being is if we look at the new heaven and earth, which john speaks of in Revelation, we understand there isn't going to be any death in that new creation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yep. All right, that's a given no death. No.
Steve Valler:the Septuagint the white puts it there. It says, He says, For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, what the Septuagint says, Heaven will be new, and earth will be new. Now that could speak of a restoration, because in chapter 12, Daniel, right at the end, I can't remember the verse. But it speaks of 1290 days, which is the three and a half years of the Antichrist, and this is Brazil, he who survived 1002, I'm paraphrasing in 1990 days, but bless it is he who attains to 1335 days. So there's a 45 day gap
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a gap. And you see
Steve Valler:in the gap, I don't understand that. Because if the if the Antichrist has been, yeah, dealt with 1290 days, what's these 45 days?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What's that in between?
Steve Valler:What some teachers believe, is that it's during that period of time, that the Lord begins the restoration of the earth, because you remember, if we look at the world, if we look at when the seventh seal is broken, yeah, the cataclysm that comes upon the earth is astonishing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Is is devastating.
Steve Valler:Yeah. I mean, it talks about that. The Euro shall move out of place is going to be earthquakes, the heavens are going to be rolled up like a scroll. So it's not just the earth, but it's the cosmos is everything. Yeah. So there's this huge upheaval, and we don't know, if it's just going to be our solar system. Or if it's going to be a galaxy, or it's going to be the universe, we have no idea but we do know that according to Revelation, there is going to be a cataclysm that hits the heavens,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's a big word.
Steve Valler:Right. So the way some students have the word thing is that that it's journeys 45 day period, that Jesus is reconstructing the earth is reconstructing the heavens and he is bringing back new so come back to the Septuagint view of a new heaven and a new earth.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when we say it, so we're talking about restoration, yes. So not no new it's, it's restored. It is it is what it was. But it's been renewed, it's been. It's been restored. It's not brand new. It's not fresh out the bag, is a restoration of what was it's
Steve Valler:in actual fact what he does, it reflects the first verse in Genesis or the first two verses in Genesis. God created the heavens and You're in the beginning, go create a new, and you're in some, I'm not sure what it says in this one.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But you in the ESV ESV.
Steve Valler:It says here, when it gets to it, the earth was without form and void. And darkness was over the face of the deepened Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the walls, or the term near without form and void is chaotic. Okay. I'm not going to get into the argument of the gaps either. But basically, if we look at that, we could almost say, well, there's this chaotic period. Yeah. And God has to bring order out of chaos again. All right, again. Yeah. All right. So when Jesus renews the heavens, and he renews the earth, He does it in such a way that, if you will, it brings us back to your dynamic position back to the beginning. Yeah, because we're not, we're, it's difficult to know. God created the heavens and the earth. He didn't create men until the sixth die. So the creation wasn't created. If you were around men, now I was placed into the creation,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he was he was placed into it, or at the end, at the end of it.
Steve Valler:Alright. For what purpose? One day, we'll know the form forms. But the point I'm trying to make is that we don't know how much of Adam's disobedience has only fit here. Because in Romans eight, it speaks of how the creation groans, waiting for the revelation of the sons of God. Because the the creation has been subjected to futility by him who subjected it. Yeah, not willingly. That means that the creation didn't go willingly. But he did it for a purpose and a reason. So this idea of this futility, we we don't know how much of Adam's fall is affecting how much God is tying in with Okay, so we, so we, we may not be seeing the full completion until this, this pit this 40 odd day in between. Yeah. Yeah, Jesus is renovate and if you were rebuilding, right is what was what, and he's taking us back to the
Reverend Ben Cooper:time of Eden, back to the beginning
Steve Valler:back to the beginning. And we ended up living the life that should should have been lived. Yeah. All right. And during that period of time, as is indicated, and these are the people that survive the the cataclysm of the three and a half years of destruction. We know that there will be babies, it speaks of babies. It speaks, it also speaks of sin, so sin hasn't been gone as many eradicated. So during this 1000 year reign of Jesus ruling, with a rod, we see the children of God being revealed, because they would have already been resurrected. As we said last week, as we said last week, they come back onto Earth, and we do what we're supposed to do here. Alright. But the continuation, and these were the Jewish people come into it, they are given the rule of the nations, they rule over the nations and the nations come up are supposed to come up year by year to Jerusalem, to worship. And if they don't, then certain things will occur in their land. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:there's an enormous amount, there's a colossal amount, your brain my brain is twitching.
Steve Valler:But basically what will as I said that the nearest you can get to it is with there's going to be a restoration to the time of Eden.
Reverend Ben Cooper:back to Genesis to Genesis.
Steve Valler:Now at that time, of course, the devil was chained up and he's locked up. We don't know about his minions, but we assume they have been as well. We don't know about the evil spirits, but we assume they've been dealt with as well. And what we have is a situation whereby man continues to live. And that sales in years will also be an instruction, if you will, of how is that unless man is born again. He cannot resist evil, because at the end of the 1000 years, the devil is set for it released he comes back to deceive the nations Then there's going to be this next art is going to be a cataclysmic war. Imagine all these people they've lived. Is that where we get Armageddon? The Battle of
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Ganga of Magog? Yeah. Yeah, this is fair stuff there
Steve Valler:you really makes a thing. You've got various buttons. Why when you've got Gaga Magog from his EQ, but some people think that it's going to be a recapitulation at some point, because most if we look at the way Jews interpret prophecy, it's it. It's a repetition. So if you have to continue it, yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's going.
Steve Valler:Also, it's got multitudinous resolutions. Okay, so you can have a particular prophecy being resolved here, but it will continue again and again. I'll come again. Yeah. So if we look at that, it's, it's, it's quite, it's got it. See, the other thing about it is well, is that what's going to be different from the the reconstituted Earth to the new heavens and the new earth is if we read Ezekiel, from 40 onwards, talks about how there's going to be this new temple. Now, if you look at the dimensions of that 10 point, it's got no bearing on the temple that Solomon built, it's completely different. It's a cube in it, it's caught on I did it square as far as I can remember it, if I remember this one, 1000
Reverend Ben Cooper:this way, 1000. Now that's New Jersey,
Steve Valler:no dress that comes later on. But no, the temple that is eco speaks of that's going to be in the 1000 year right. Now, we know that that's going to be in 1000 year reign, because he's never been, he's never been. And it's not going to be in a new heaven and a new earth because john makes it clear, there will be no temple, and no heaven on earth. He says God will live with men. So we know that certain things have got to come into place, certain
Reverend Ben Cooper:events have got certain
Steve Valler:events, we've got come into place that
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've got me lined up that haven't happened,
Steve Valler:obviously yet. And so as I say, you've got the dynamic business. In Isaiah 11, you'll, you'll find it spoken of later on in other areas. But you've got this The thing with the Jews, being the head of the nations, they are going to be the head of the nations. And whatsoever we are to do as children of God. We're not sure not it's not really spelled out. There's, there's a parable that talks about one of the parables where the Lord gives these people certain talents, and if they invest the time, then they will be blessed. And he said, Give this. Lord, You gave me five talents. I invested it, and I got five. Well done good and faithful. So you will run over five cities. It's difficult to make a clear theology out of a parable. Yeah. But some people do anything. Oh, we're going to rule over cities when we get there. I mean,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that's where we sit today with some teachings.
Steve Valler:Yeah, one bloke I can't remember it was the Worldwide Church, one of men who came up with the idea that, you know, one of the children or one of the children got to go right over Australia and all this. Oh, my
Reverend Ben Cooper:gosh, yeah.
Steve Valler:So and this is the trouble see if you chase these two, too much.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that's what we're saying is that you end up down a rabbit hole up and down a rabbit hole and you almost become just awash with all this stuff going on. Yeah,
Steve Valler:I mean, seriously, truthfully, if you start looking at the destruction that's going to happen during the break in seventh seal, there are some interpreters that think that whole of the American continent is going to be wiped out, gone. Because the size of it with all that it's got. It fits in very well with some of the statements of destruction within the revelation. So some people say u haul is the American company. Goodnight, Vienna, you know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We'll find out we'll find out one day we'll find out but you took about taking cities and all that there's a lot of lot of stuff out there. And it's been out there where you're hearing that now, aren't you? And as for quite a while, we're going into that city, we've got revival and we're going to take the whole city for Jesus and the whole world, you know. And we we, we we are we are going to see America save, we're going to see this play. So we're going to see nation saved, and you think, oh, Hang on a moment that doesn't line up with what we're looking at right now. And what we're looking at is directly from the Word of God fact from scripture where you go, where do we find you can't find anywhere that says, we are going to save a whole nation. Okay, you've got
Steve Valler:two areas of Scripture, which you have to take into account. In the second set solonian letter, it talks about how there's going to be a great falling away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Steve Valler:The vast majority of Bible teachers say that this is a falling away from the church. Right? Yeah, that the church is going denied the basic tenets of Christianity. Could I
Reverend Ben Cooper:could I just say do Do you think that we could be having a bit of a bit of a sniffle at the moment? Oh, yeah. So within, because that's what we talk about that within the church itself. There is this fall, and you're starting to see things now, like I've never seen before,
Steve Valler:the new thing, the new new blogger blog is progressive Christianity, which basically says, you know, the word isn't the revealed Word of God changes and we got changed with it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this is the sort of stuff that you're denying the basics. And then
Reverend Ben Cooper:then that that rubs out that scripture, and I'm the same yesterday, today and forevermore. And so that so there's always an opposite to what God says. Always, because that's how the devil works, of course.
Steve Valler:So you've got this situation in the moment where again, without without a shadow of doubt, as far as I'm concerned, we are if we if we, if, if we have not hit the second chapter of two Thessalonians. We were in the foyer was
Reverend Ben Cooper:touching distance to build up. We're in the build up. Yeah, I believe we're almost in it on it, you know, and what I'm seeing in the churches I'm shocked at, I'm actually
Steve Valler:wrong. What were you discussing before we can find out? Yeah, the Barna group now, yeah, America, we spoke about this, probably, six, seven months easy how it was that they're, they they've done a study, and they reckon that only 25% of Christians in America had a biblical worldview? Well, the latest one is 6% of Christians have a biblical worldview. So it's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's so that lines up with what we're talking about the scripture the falling away, yeah, the delusion? Yes, people are going off into this deluded state, yes, of Following this, this satanic realm. And the real Church of Jesus Christ is a very small number a well dreamy, small. And that's how we are seeing it, right.
Steve Valler:But then we have to take into account another statement in Scripture, which is an old read it rather than the amateur route. And again, it's in Revelation. And john is talking to an angel. And not bump, bump, bump Bump. Just took a bunch of social
Reverend Ben Cooper:we're not going to talk about because we are literally just frozen listening to this.
Steve Valler:Okay, this is
Reverend Ben Cooper:really important this, okay, this
Steve Valler:is in Revelation seven, picks up the 13. And then one of the elders addressed me saying who all these closed in white robes and From where have they come? I said to him, sir, you know, basically, john was saying got clear about you. And he said to me, these are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation, they have washed their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple. And he who sits on the throne, will shelter them with his presence. And so you've got a huge number that are being saved out of the Great Tribulation out of ghosts. But going into it, you've got a fallen away from the chair.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we've got fallen away within the church that we have now. So that is that is clear to see. Yeah. So we're, we can pretty well get an idea where we sit in the timeline of Christ's return by what the actions are, what's going on? Yeah. When we say falling away, we can sum this up very quickly by saying coming away from the Word of God.
Steve Valler:It's the denial of the base of the basics.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that has been happening for a long time as well as
Steve Valler:he has been, but now it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:picking now we're starting to see it across the globe, isn't it? It's around the globe. So then we have a great restoration people being saved when the church is shrinking and suddenly being Becoming fallen Yeah, then we have a move on humanity that are being saved out of this big event that's going to arise.
Steve Valler:I personally
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. All
Steve Valler:right, this is a personal opinion. Nobody has to agree with me. It's a personal opinion. In Revelation six, we come to the breaking of the sixth seal. And he says, When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the salt became black of sackcloth. And the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky, filter the earth, as the victory sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a guy now, personally, I believe that that is the resurrection and the Rapture. Okay, so we have the resurrection and the rapture there. The next thing, we have the revelation of the 144,000. Yes. From the tribes of Israel, then we have john being asked, Who are all this lot and in so Ray knockaloe are being saved that a great tribulation as the Chinese people are being saved. Again, personally, yeah, I might be wrong. We'll find out when we get there. I believe that by this time, the churches been taken away
Reverend Ben Cooper:been taken. Yes. Right. Okay.
Steve Valler:Yeah. Okay. And so that's how I see it happening, that you've got this falling away with the leader, to the revelation of the Antichrist, right? Because that's what it's going to, it's going to be falling away up to a revelation, because then it says that God will send a strong delusion. So basically, if they can't, if they won't believe the Word of God, and Nero is before them, then I've already denied Him, they will believe someone who is completely anti God, and God will send that delusion upon them. All
Reverend Ben Cooper:right, you can almost see that. Now, he said, that don't this delusion that's out there. And basically what you've got, you've got a fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy. This is
Steve Valler:you reject me, but if you if someone came in their own name, you believe
Reverend Ben Cooper:you believe them?
Steve Valler:Yeah, that's what we're gonna have. We're gonna have this guy coming in his own name.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. And you're going to follow him? And yeah, and the world is gonna
Steve Valler:flock to it over and say, who is like the beast? Yeah, yeah. And so this is it. And we have this the three and a half years, we need to break into the seventh seal. And all that happens there. A great Cataclysm, this for me. People talk about the pre tribulation. Some people talk about the tribulation is going to be the whole seven years. I don't necessarily believe that. It Again, this is personal. Yeah. You know, don't ask me. Not, john, this is just this is my belief. So that you have this time of the great Cataclysm that that three and a half years when the Antichrist is rolling on the earth, it's that time when he will pursue the Christians are being saved at that time. Yeah, the ones that are washing their robes in the blood and the Christ. That's after the rapture and the resurrection. How the rest of it works out. I don't know, we find out when we get out. But then we have this. If, if the tribulation is for just the second half of the seven years, then I'm pretty pretribulational. Yeah. If the rest begins halfway through, then I'm pre recce. So whichever way Yeah, I don't believe that we are going to suffer the wrath of God upon Notice
Reverend Ben Cooper:how I don't believe that.
Steve Valler:Yes, we're going to suffer tribulation, tribulation,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I mean, different that side completely different, isn't it to refer God? I want to see your offer God,
Steve Valler:no, nobody does nobody. Absolute. The one area which I find hard to find in the Old Testament, and I might be wrong. But as I say that the two areas from Isaiah that are used in Isaiah 65 and 66, to talk about the new hen who has saved for me that's that's the 1000 years, the fires but the actual, complete new heaven and new earth. If we remember Peter says that this heaven on this earth, it's been stored up for fire, it's going to be destroyed by fire. And if we pick it up in Revelation 20 you get Satan being released. And then you have to the great white throne set up the judgment. airing done down, death and Hades were thrown in like a fire. That's another reason why I don't think that the Isaiah, prophecies are about the new revenue is because debt is being destroyed, we normally hear speaks
Reverend Ben Cooper:very clearly about death.
Steve Valler:Yeah. And so we pick it up in 21. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth now that I found interesting when I was looking at, because so often in the Scriptures, it talks about heavens, heavens, heavens, as in more than one. Yeah. But here it says, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea was no more. I mean, that's clear. It's usually in heaven. So you know, I could be wrong, but I like the way it was, was being given. And it was, when I saw the Holy City, New Jerusalem came down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride of dawn for her husband, and heard a loud voice from the throne say, behold, the dwelling place of God is with men, he will dwell with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be will with them. Is there a god? So there's got to be no temple here. God is going to dwell with the people. There's a huge amount goes on in these 22 chapters. And the size of going back to here the size of your, you were talking about earlier on. Of course, this is ISO 1500 miles. But it says here, and one spoke to me and he measuring wrote a goal to measure the city and it's going to walk, the city lies Foursquare. Its legs and sons its width, and he measured the city with his Rod 12,000 stadia, which according to my Bible says 1390 miles. Whoa, all right, it's links and width and height are equal. So it's 1380 miles long one on ones 300 miles or 1380 miles high. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it costs Is
Steve Valler:it big? It's got, I mean, 1000 times 1000 is a million 1000 psi on hands. A million is 1000 million, or a billion if you're an American. That's where they're at. I mean, the other bits and pieces gonna be
Reverend Ben Cooper:absolutely huge. And I love that bit where it says that God's dwelling place is with the people.
Steve Valler:Yeah, yeah. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:there is no temple, there's no temporary.
Steve Valler:And in actual fact, it does actually say in the text somewhere, which I can't find it he says, There is no temple. Da Da, da, da, da, easy scene. First. 2221. And a solo chapel in the city for its temple is the Lord God, the Almighty and the lamb. City has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light and its lamp is the Lamb.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There we go.
Steve Valler:Yeah, so the temples done away with everything's done away with the New Heaven, New Earth. And God is dwelling with main
Reverend Ben Cooper:price God,
Steve Valler:we, I might be wrong, I might have missed my search. But all we know of this new heaven and new earth is really only spoken of in those last two chapters of Revelation. The I think, one of the reasons I think that we are not given more information is we come back to Paul, the two things with Paul, I think, in the Corinthian literary says he is not into the heart of man, that which God has prepared for as you love him. But also when he says the things which he saw he was not allowed to repeat. So there are certain there were certain restrictions, certain
Reverend Ben Cooper:restrictions that man cannot, but he cannot have and can't get restricted.
Steve Valler:Yeah, I mean, Daniel was told solely up to the right time. Yeah, so the prophecies of Daniel for years and years he's pbn got sailed. They didn't know didn't understand. So it was God's given revelation that people have begun to understand more and more and more.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Daniel is about humanity wants to know, and they, the more they don't know, the more they make it up. Yeah, they speculate and they speculate and they look into something that's over thought over thinking.
Steve Valler:There's nothing wrong in speculating, I wonder what this is going to be like, I wonder it's going to be like when you turn it into,
Reverend Ben Cooper:if you start turning into teaching and adopting then that and that's where we sit today. We can see that a lot calmer across the board of the church. And where all this revival drum that word that we're not too happy with has been beaten for so many years. Where we sit today is completely the opposite to what they were teaching. Yeah.
Steve Valler:I mean, a revival businesses seriously it's it's wisely and Wakefield whitening revival Really? In that sense? I would suggest I might be wrong, but I would suggest it really comes out of America.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We just finished Yeah, it comes out and loads gonna show up. That's
Steve Valler:it. Yeah, you get movies and stuff like that. And we have this great revival and
Reverend Ben Cooper:bliss Stadium, all that sort of stuff. That's I'm gonna go over there and when I go, God will follow me to that place. And we'll do a head count.
Steve Valler:Ever revival, terrific. So he's not going to ask for permission.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But where we sit today, biblically, is completely the opposite to a lot of preaching and teaching. So when we've been talking about speculation and ramping up and switching skip scripture about making their opinion, a teaching and a doctrine, that's why we have a crisis
Steve Valler:in the church. The if you look at the early church fathers, it doesn't mean that because they taught you it was correct, no, but they had received an enormous amount from the apostles. So we have to take it into account, we have to think about what
Reverend Ben Cooper:they were preach, you have to think about it, you have to look at it, you have to study it. Yes. And you have to ask God to reveal the truth. Yes, that's that. But that's, that's what we have to do as believers.
Steve Valler:And it's the thing about that is that it's very, you start seeing within a site, 150 200 years, 100 150 200 years, you start seeing things change, you start seeing things develop, you start seeing people moving away from the original teachings of universals. Yeah, very clearly. And it happened very, very quickly. That's why
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's important to study and to read and to give time to the word and to look at historical stuff and, and to go into that until God can speak to you from the overview of the picture. Yeah, I might just be in a church listening to someone with an opinion.
Steve Valler:If you read, if you read, for instance, about Augustine, and his life is no different from you and me, it's no different, right? He got all sorts of shenanigans he was, he was in some very strange stuff before he became Christian.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But look how his influence.
Steve Valler:But once he, once he been saved, again, this development, because he was dealing with deceitful people at the time. As he moved away from he's one of the reasons they say moved away from the position of a literal translation, rather than go to dorico is that there were some people teaching at that time, that when we get saved, we're going to have, we're going to have our 70 virgins, and I didn't say something British, it's very much like the air during a period of time, so you know, we're going to eat, drink and be merry, and we're going to have all the rest of it. And we said, No, hang on a minute,
Reverend Ben Cooper:hang on.
Steve Valler:Why do I say don't do it now, but they're going to be able to do it in. And so he started to confront these sorts of gnostic teachings. And some say that he went back to his old, he used to follow a bloke called Manny, ma ni, mannequins, and they were very strange mob. They taught sort of a confluence of Buddhism and Zoroastrianism a mix of crazy off the wall. And I say that he went back to someone at teaching and and sort of applied it and whether he did or not, either. But the point is that, you know, just because Augustine said it, don't make it right. Don't make it right, though. Just because you're a nice city, don't make it right. You know, if you want to read them, fine, read them. But you know, use the word of God just because Augustine said that the 1000 years is allegorical, make up your own mind. Yeah, my cup
Reverend Ben Cooper:your own mind. But that's what Christ does, doesn't he, when you study and read he, he brings you to that place, he brings you to a place, but you need to put the effort in? Yeah, you have to do your research.
Steve Valler:So you can see your noi we discussed this, and we discussed the word and so on and so forth. But we are not in a position to tell people how I think I leave now, the only thing we can say is go to the word.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Steve Valler:Read it in prayer. Seek the Lord guidance and come to an understanding of what you believe and why you believe it. Yes, you that's very, very necessary. You have to know what you believe. But you have to know why you believe it. Why do I believe
Reverend Ben Cooper:Why do I believe? Why? Why? What's the evidence? What What are you reading? What are you? And that's I'm afraid to say what we've got across the culture of church, the Bible is not open. So we'll exhaust with all this crazy things raised
Steve Valler:up by God to challenge people to give guidance and God God is challenging, right? But the teacher bringing the sound or the sound is doctrine he possibly can. Yeah, he's not necessarily gonna bring the total amount, because he's human. And he's failing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:every second of every breath that he makes. Yeah.
Steve Valler:And so as I say, you can bring the foundational aspects of Scripture, but the
Reverend Ben Cooper:one that's bringing it has got to do the same as well as the audience is speaking. Yeah. So it It's this circle of all of us have got to study, read, listen, pray, trust God, and to try and to press into this living for Jesus. Yeah,
Steve Valler:I think the other thing is, I've said to you before, the thing about this particular time of lockdown has been, has been very beneficial, because it's allow people to get before God and seek him. And he's been dealing with things in people. But the one thing we have not heard, we were not able to discuss the word we're not able to talk it through, you know, it's necessary to sit down and talk and to allow people to make an observation, and then comment on these observations. Yeah, so what why is
Reverend Ben Cooper:it? Why is it that even you believe this particular
Steve Valler:aspect? Why do you believe this? Why do you believe that? You must be teachable. You must not be teachable.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And you must be outside. You know what? I didn't realize that. Thank you very much. Oh, very much. So yeah, yeah, that that is a that is a big thing. That is a big thing. You know, Steve, we thank you so much. We have? Well, I've been quiet all the way through, and I loved it. And I just love listening to the information and the great stuff that God drops in your spirit, and we praise God for your life. And you've been listening to Steve, and you've been listening to me be very quiet, Reverend Ben Cooper, and we thank you for joining us. And please, as we always say, share all this stuff amongst your church family, your family, your friends, any comments, you can catch Steve here at elim church, he's more than willing to chat with you, you know, text email,
Steve Valler:don't quote me don't
Reverend Ben Cooper:don't quote him. You know, it's really important that, that we take that on board on board. It's it's not it's not what we say. It's what God says. So, we are asking, have we got this right? Yeah, that's so important. So all the time. And we got this right.
Steve Valler:For me, over the years are the positions that I've held and components? Well, I think I've got that one wrong.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. But what a great place to be, to go. Hang on a minute. I've made a mistake, ma by the grace of God, and by favor and anointed and power and all the stuff that goes through that. Were teachable have to be and by saying, wait, no, it's not. You gotta be careful. You're not putting yourself elevate. It's just saying, I need to know the truth. Because the mistakes that I've made, I can't make them anymore. Wasting time wasting years. We got, we ain't got the time. We're on it. He's coming back. So thank you so much, listeners, wherever you are around the world. God bless you. God bless and keep in the Word of God. Catch you very, very soon. Take care. Bye bye.