hello and welcome thank you for joining us here in Elim church in swanley you're joining myself Reverend benjamin Leonard Cooper and we are so glad to have you with us this afternoon of the hour this morning wherever you are on planet earth listening to us you can find us on buzzsprout spotify and so many other places we have simon pinchbeck with us as we gather around the mics as we just record this podcast and we welcome him into the house of the lord simon god bless you it's
Simon Pinchbeck:great to be back it's great to be with you ben and you're back yeah it's exciting
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's good time so
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah not a bit trouble getting into swanley a day there was border checks and all that
Reverend Ben Cooper:you got your healthcare passport actually COVID gonna come in as one next quarter to get
Simon Pinchbeck:right right you might want to tell us sir please we'll give you back because you when you go out yeah that's it didn't believe them but
Reverend Ben Cooper:what can you what can you know what can you we are living in powerful times
Simon Pinchbeck:we live in
Reverend Ben Cooper:powerful times i believe
Simon Pinchbeck:extended times because we're seeing it we're living it and we're seeing it you know every day we're reading more and more stuff which is taking the down the router revelation me
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah
Reverend Ben Cooper:so what have we got today well what are we going to chow that man so much
Simon Pinchbeck:i was just reading in you know some reason you know dad certainly in the premier christian some stuff now
Reverend Ben Cooper:i was wait sorry let's be serious yeah
Simon Pinchbeck:i was reading the bible in one year just a strange person is strange
Reverend Ben Cooper:a typical example in it yeah i'm going to read the bible in a year and as we said earlier are you going to believe it oh oh god believe it i just forgot to read it
Simon Pinchbeck:you got a bye someone else who can you know is a bit better i can read that in the bible no so i was reading the bible in a year and it just sort of jumped out at me it was it looks five and is when remember the fishermen and jesus was he had to leap into a sore a couple of boats he left in the moment and he preached and then he blessed them with a load of fish and he genosha and then he said he said i'm gonna make you fishers of men or fishers of people that's what that's what he that's what he said so so you want to be fisher men anymore you'll be fishers of men and a condom thinking men are gone when did the church stop making fishers of men
Reverend Ben Cooper:i don't think he started because i actually think it started
Simon Pinchbeck:when did it stop making fishers of people which is going out and and getting the harvest of people going out and saving the last when did it stop doing that
Reverend Ben Cooper:i had i had quite the tricky one to answer in it because the reason i said say
Simon Pinchbeck:that is because the amount of times that i get asked to speak in churches on zoom calls and you from our gospel challenge you deliver a gospel challenge and at the end of it you know there's responses but at the end of it some of the people from the church will come up to you and they'll say why so refreshing to hear a gospel challenge we haven't heard that in this church for years
Reverend Ben Cooper:we never heard the gospel
Simon Pinchbeck:we've never we've never heard people being challenged to make a decision that jesus christ is solid church whoa
Reverend Ben Cooper:hang on a minute this is this is putting a pause on things because when you really think about it we preach to the same all the time don't we we approach into the same audience the same
Simon Pinchbeck:same audience same
Reverend Ben Cooper:audience week after week when was the last time or they had allah say when was the last time we see someone give their life to jesus under the umbrella of the word church
Simon Pinchbeck:and so where have we made church a place where you you're worried to bring your non christian people yeah non christian friends it's okay for you and you know i was reading on the whatsapp platform our churches open we both booked a place in it would be booked a place for your next door neighbor to come along with you who's not saved and oh no we've just booked it for us and that's great for you isn't it but jesus said Gonna turn you into fishers of men or is a harvest out there, this is people to be saved out there and what we should be doing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And I think what we've seen as well, I don't not use the word revival, but we've these people have called silver revival so we can pitch a tent out and God's gonna move because we've decided to bring a tent. It's not. It's not happening. It's not happening across the UK. we're lacking spiritual leaders, we're lacking biblical truth. We are lacking the fundamental teaching of Jesus Christ. The creation, marriage, birth, death, resurrection, the rapture of the church n times. So we are not seeing people saved because the church is a club.
Simon Pinchbeck:It church becomes a club. Yeah, you're exactly. You're exactly right. We, if you are a born again, spirit full believer, yeah, you are a citizen of the kingdom. Yeah. And what is
Reverend Ben Cooper:what's the difference between a church and a gym? Nothing on paper at the moment because gyms are open in the same time as churches are opening. What's the difference? It's it's been put in a bracket of with no spiritual power, the government does not recognize the church in any way shape or form of, of its spiritual lead. It doesn't recognize recognize
Simon Pinchbeck:it doesn't recognize it. That's a great point, you know, because it's not recognizing the spiritual need of the people, people. It's not recognizing if it did
Reverend Ben Cooper:it blind, it would be at the forefront of everything
Simon Pinchbeck:it would that
Reverend Ben Cooper:we will keep the churches open over everything else, because we need spiritual guidance. But we closed the same time as the gyms we've closed the same times as the pumps will open up the same time so that there is no rear edge that spirituality does not come into the government's word in whatsoever. No, it's the same with Brexit,
Simon Pinchbeck:God has left the building.
Reverend Ben Cooper:See, Brexit to me is a spiritual break from satanic Europe. We have been broke, we are breaking away spiritually from Europe, I do believe God has something powerful and whatever that may be for the UK, but I believe that's going to be repentance, and are crying out and according to God. So when we talk about when we've heard Brexit for seven, 810 years, we've heard the word Brexit and it's all to do with getting banana through the tunnel and getting spat through the tunnel and trade deals and getting the cars over and this and that. But above the ceiling level, there is a spiritual Brexit that has to happen because policies and everything that comes over from Europe is very satanic comes against what a believer. So it's the same with the government today the government have not recognized in any area whatsoever of spiritual need for in this nation,
Simon Pinchbeck:all that concerned about is that you don't sing or you don't do this or you don't worship like you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He doesn't recognize doesn't recognize spirituality whatsoever. Everything is of this art of what you see visually. So it's,
Simon Pinchbeck:it's humanism is its humanism. And that's the mantra
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that is what's beating the drum today humanism is beating the drum. That's what it's about. Even if you look at humanists, what do they come against more than anything else? Christian Schools?
Simon Pinchbeck:five schools, five schools. Yeah, yeah. Wow. And are we
Reverend Ben Cooper:got a human as a government
Simon Pinchbeck:Something came up on, on on something I was looking at. Only a couple of days ago. Was the in Wales. Yeah. They're lobbying for humanism. Yeah. To add as much as to be taught in schools. Yeah, alongside Christianity.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It so that is that is the base that is rising against Christianity, humanism, and
Simon Pinchbeck:you are exactly 100%. Right. That is the biggest threat to Christianity that the global world is seeing and that is completely humanistic approach.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if you like in the world of chaplaincy, we've got all faiths, everything going on in the world of chaplaincy, and we've got humanists carrying the label chaplain. When you look at what chaplain means spiritual lead, so if you don't believe in the spiritual life, why do you want to be called a chaplain there?
Simon Pinchbeck:So you've got human human is going into where you go hospices?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, hospitals all over this place. There's a hospital as a hospital up north a few years ago that has put a humanist as the lead chaplain
Simon Pinchbeck:on I was in a I was in Chelmsford prison just before the lockdown speaking on a Sunday morning and the chaplain is a pagan which, so what's he going to cite what's he gonna say seriously come on you're gonna say a loser nice now finally listen to what i had to say and i think it may have touched him i believe the lord did but but was he going to say go and hug a tree or so i don't know you know a pagan you're going to talk about all sorts of
Reverend Ben Cooper:so when you just to two words two words we have mentioned a paganist and a humanist they're there together that blend everything is blended together
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah yeah
Reverend Ben Cooper:and you can't say christianity is blending because christianity can't blend with nothing religion blends with that so the word christianity has been watered down because we know what it means christ in me so christ cannot be blended with anything else
Simon Pinchbeck:ben this is it this is this the way this is going this is an absolutely huge subject that humanism has been creeping in for years and years and years and the church
Reverend Ben Cooper:teaches it because you can simon you can do what you will and
Simon Pinchbeck:that just goes along with the world that
Reverend Ben Cooper:goes along with a world
Simon Pinchbeck:i said to mind i said to my son is was he 46 years old i think he is now and his two young kids and i said what's the what's the biggest problem with with with you people your rage these days and he said to me he said it's very much a selfish world very much that you can do everything yeah and so and here we are this is buying right into this humanism thing that you are the center yeah you're the little god you speak you know people like tony robbins people like that'll tell you their secular motivators that will tell you that you can do everything you're the center of everything but then we get the christian in inverted commas speakers and teachers in inverted commas again the the you know the joe loss things that kenneth copeland's the td jakes is that the steven furtick service well they will tell you that use the scriptures and you can do everything you can get everything you can use everything because it's all there for you so you can name it and you can claim it and you can and you can you can get it and if you want to give me a few quid i'll tell you even more
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know sitting where we sit now i can see humanist preachers that sounds a bit of a strange thing to say you can you can see because they are all for the human the person they are all for now for the moment but what does it do it comes against god it comes
Simon Pinchbeck:against it comes against god because if you're making yourself to be a little god yeah what the lord intended for you and so so here's the deal they're still souls to be saved these people are still need saving so as we said before the church is not equipping the church is just not quitting this
Reverend Ben Cooper:church is an equipment so it within the church you've got paganism you've got darwinism which is really pressed but they don't they don't label it as that they just take creation and and dip it in and out of all sorts of things and don't believe in it so you've got paganism you've got darwinism you've got witchcraft which is very clear you've got a friend simon the sorcerer which we have done for a few weeks back coming back out of the church he's back he's on his way back we got humanism from the pulpit and it's disguised under the label church
Simon Pinchbeck:man so we got a we call we say church but it is a huge umbrella and it is
Reverend Ben Cooper:massive
Simon Pinchbeck:it's a massive umbrella and there's diversity everywhere in the church and you can be your your one and you can be your your one and the enemy is not walking around with a pitchfork and our homes is in the church isn't he's up there at the front he's he's leading the services he's he's leading the worship he's he's he's in there but he has an army which is drilled yeah which is trained and which has got one single purpose to do to destroy you yeah and we're not equipped so we're getting we're not only are we not equipping men and women in the church to be fishers of people we're not even equipping them to defend themselves against
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's gotten a little better. So
Simon Pinchbeck:it's nothing. It's
Reverend Ben Cooper:nothing. It's just it's
Simon Pinchbeck:early morning,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's a club. It's a club. It's a club that has a club that you can't, you can't, I'm afraid you can't look at it any other way. Because you have to label it as a club. Because the clubs have been closed, the nightclubs have closed, the religious clubs have been closed, the pubs are closed, the gyms are closed. So where does the church come in the bracket comes in the same category as all that when if the officials would recognize that the church is the spiritual guidance that we need, where's
Simon Pinchbeck:Ben? Where are we? Where's these spiritual leaders? Go standing up and going No, no, oh, we're on a map. We could draw churches up to be open.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We haven't had to be on a bus. We were where someone please text phoning Colin and tell me what I am we are wrong. Where are the biblical leaders, the Joshua's and a Caleb's that are standing up for the Word of God.
Simon Pinchbeck:Because right now, because in this in this situation, there's men and women out there absolutely desperate for Jesus, they maybe don't know it, but they're desperate for Jesus, the mental health state of the nation is off the scale. And the belief factor, they've tried everything they've they've tried everything that humanism has thrown at him. And it doesn't work. Why? Because it never will work. Because if you put yourself before God, it's never gonna it's all gonna end up in a disaster you end up in the train is going to be derailed. And that's what's happening. But where are where are the fishes of people here?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Non non existent? Well, there's a few evangelists out there. There's a few preachers and teachers on the streets, really pushing it, but even that their voices are being squashed by.
Simon Pinchbeck:I'll tell you, somebody says something that encouraged me, though, in the last couple of weeks. And you're right, you're exactly right in what you said. So I'm on several platforms with four guys and generally speaking, it's pray for me I'm in a bit of trouble. I'm going through this Please pray for me. I want you know, this is going on my life. Please pray for me. There's not much I'm gonna go for Jesus. There's not much I'll pray for me please. I'm just about to tell this person about Jesus Christ. There's not much of that going on here. And I am I'm associated with something called for gospel businessmen. Which is was a real in the UK was really thriving and in the States was really thriving a few years ago. It is it's, it's massive in other countries around the world. And what they do, there's a group of Christian people get together when they can they see us on zoom these days, but, but they have a meal once a month. And and it's not just men, it's women as well. You can bring your wives and those women and what they do they have a speaker, but it's totally evangelistic. So what they're looking for is to bring in their own Christian friends into a non threatening environment where you can sit down and you can ever meet or you can hear a story of a child's life and you get challenged to see what the other Spirit says in your life. So um, very, I'm pretty good match with the president and, and he put me in touch
Reverend Ben Cooper:with Joe Biden,
Simon Pinchbeck:we've
Reverend Ben Cooper:sorry,
Simon Pinchbeck:real President Donald Trump was a guy called Barry Lawrence Who's he was a lovely fella. But then and then through is a guy down this neck of the woods called Terry Lowe's. And then they put me in touch with a guy up north called Dave Riley and then there was another guy in Hastings called Bruce wick and I was talking to these fellows and these fellows are all retired the order wrong side of retirement a summary in a righties, but I've never heard so much enthusiasm for evangelism these guys wanting to you know, we want to see this person save that person saved we want to see this person person who it really really lifted me out me and I want to I did a couple of zoom calls with these spellers one up north and one in high seas because you can go around the world on zoom calm fantastic. So that's that's the advantage of that zoom moment. And they insisted I did a gospel show which was great and also did a gospel challenge and, and peoples are saying the prayers and I was I spent the guys in Hastings I spent over an hour praying for people who were on the same you will see was wonderful. And we were we were
Reverend Ben Cooper:really powerful stuff
Simon Pinchbeck:that was they were so enthusiastic for the Lord, man it not men author agent next week because these guys, all they want to see is people save for the kingdom. And when the church is not sick Where's it? What's it doing? Ain't it's not supplying it's a Binks evangelism is fun. I don't know, what does it think about? I don't even know what they think. Bring your friends to church. No, scare them to death and then never come back again. Yeah, no, we have to the sort of evangelism is not about church. It's not about bringing people to church. It's about it's not about religion. It's not about it's about bringing people into a relationship of Jesus Christ. That's what it's about. And you don't have to do that in a church though. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, but then then we look at I'm actually stumped for words, believe it or not. I'm actually lost for words. Because when I really think about what the Scriptures talks very clearly about sound doctrine. We're not seeing people say, because there is no Jesus Christ being preached. The Scripture says, in the end times, there will be many. Messiah is rising. There'll be many false prophets. So the salvation, we are not seeing salvation, because the church isn't preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ now
Simon Pinchbeck:is no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, it's a different gospel. And it says, you know that in Galatians Galatians, it says, How, how he says at the beginning of Galatians, chapter one, he mentions it really clearly. Paul, he says, He says, I'm astonished that you're already following a different gospel.
Simon Pinchbeck:And what he said even if it's an angel of light,
Reverend Ben Cooper:if it's a love lie, let them because
Simon Pinchbeck:you're in trouble.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're in trouble.
Simon Pinchbeck:So go back to that. This what he says is, in Luke five, it said, he stood by the lake and saw two boats standing by the light but the fishermen are gone from them, and they were washing their nets. As well as making sure the buildings Okay, it's making sure this is okay.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we're getting ready for it's getting. We're getting ready to reopen because Boris said,
Simon Pinchbeck:we've got some new chairs, customer chair, raise the Lord. They'll bring them in. We got
Reverend Ben Cooper:people got new coffee. They're gonna come because they got a
Simon Pinchbeck:coffee. They're gonna come over.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, what? Excellent. And we've got a manual written by Pastor. Wow, that's really in a drawer, man. Yeah,
Simon Pinchbeck:he's spent all locked down and he's come out with it down. I've
Reverend Ben Cooper:got to give him a revelation. So no, definitely
Simon Pinchbeck:not revelation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we've never seen that before. 101 ways to get to pastor and be saved.
Simon Pinchbeck:Quit. Yeah, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So what does the church offer me? A comfy chair. A club, cup of tea slice of cake.
Simon Pinchbeck:a feelgood factor. That's what
Reverend Ben Cooper:music music
Simon Pinchbeck:is offering you a feelgood factor.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is nice a comfy
Simon Pinchbeck:lights are on. But then you can come into this church full of crap. And you can feel good for an hour or a day at home and go out with the same crab, you came in with an indulgent more of it. And see lots of people who are living a bit of a lie really, because, you know, you've got families who ran the kids in the car crying and shouting at each other walking the church praise our Lord.
Reverend Ben Cooper:The Lord's blessing our marriage, but we've been we've really been blessed, blessed
Simon Pinchbeck:and only favored, you know. Walk out kids in the garden.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's just like, what have we come to what we come to think we've got to go back to the Department of government that clearly doesn't recognize the spiritual need of believers in the UK, because nowhere Have you heard Have you seen where the government have separated the church and said, right, we are a Christian nation. We need to keep the church open for mental health issues for spiritual need for the preaching and teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because we are a Christian nation.
Simon Pinchbeck:I'm smiling, but because it's not and it won't happen and we're getting further and further away from now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we're not we locked down. We've locked everything. Everything down. And the chip but we've had the supermarkets open. Yeah. supermarket. The shops that have been out in fruit lockdown or just a joke. Some of the stuff that's been open it's been the manipulate in shape it shaped but the church has been under the authority of Pharaoh leadership. And what the pharaoh what what was this line that Moses dropped and Aaron dropped Pharaoh, we want to go out for our three day festival, go into the wilderness and praise our God and lift him and give sacrifice and prays to the God of Israel. What if Pharaoh say, Who is your God? Get back in lockdown, make me bricks. Get on? Who is your God? That's why it is. So is your God and without the leaders of the nation saying any word in whatsoever their actions speak 1000 words. Nowhere for any lockdown time have we heard that? We are a Christian nation. We have come from Christian birth, birth in missionaries. We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are going to keep the churches open. And we are going to put measures in place to keep everybody safe so you can go and you can find rest in the house of the Lord.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah, they'll say come out on a Wednesday evening nine o'clock and clap the NHS baby.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Simon Pinchbeck:Why not? Let's come out. Go serve eight o'clock. A sub A prayer. Let's serve a nation a prayer nation even if it's just for 10 minutes a nation come to prayer. And now they want to know
Reverend Ben Cooper:because now we're across the airwaves Have you reckon as Christianity Christianity,
Simon Pinchbeck:because Christianity has just fallen like it as in with every other aspect of our life? It's fallen in it's just another religion?
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think we got to be careful not to challenges it because it's just another religion, because it can't be Christianity, because Christ cannot be controlled by Pharaohs and Caesar's, and punches pilots. What did Christ say to the one that was drilling him in the courtyard? Who do you when he said Who do you say I am? And he just looked at me said, You got no power over me whatsoever. That has not been given from above. So that frightened him that frightened him. punches pilot. So what we have, we have a system that doesn't recognize the Messiah
Simon Pinchbeck:that doesn't recognize
Reverend Ben Cooper:it doesn't recognize it doesn't recognize it doesn't recognize it's off. Its off their radar. It doesn't come into it if if the government in this nation had any understanding of spirituality, it they would not have shut the church.
Simon Pinchbeck:Now they've got but there's no understanding of faith in this country at all. AIDS. They is lip service that's given you know, weird we do you know, come through the grapevine or Boris's in hospital with with COVID and others a nurse been witnessing to him blah, blah, blah. You know, it's nonsense. It's absolute nonsense, because because there's not even a Christian empezar standing up and and saying no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, no way. Why? No way. Because
Simon Pinchbeck:if you remember, we spoke the nation of humanists. Do you remember we spoke about the zebra with the red dot? Yeah, yeah, that's what happens. That's what
Reverend Ben Cooper:happens. You stand now stand that you'll get taken out,
Simon Pinchbeck:you get taken out. And you'll get taken out and they'll take you out and you will not be able to close your boss down completely. And they have got the ability to do that. Because why? Because they control the media. They control every platform that there is an they'll take you outcome completely. But they can't take I can't take Jesus out. Because what happens is they stand in strong. And you know, they though the Lord is looking for a remnant. Yeah. And people are falling away all over the place. And when I say four in a way that they probably just sophus
Reverend Ben Cooper:fusion because there's no uptrend. And
Simon Pinchbeck:let's get back to church. Let's get back to what, what,
Reverend Ben Cooper:what, what, what is church? What is that? What is it? What is it? What does it look like? What is it about? I'll go when I want to go I'll out Turn up when I want to turn up there's no it this is this this is such a serious subject when you're looking at the text and it says towboats Washington that's the church is watching its next regenerations is going through the process going through the process it has no spiritual power whatsoever is gone. I even have to think to myself I know the scripture says I'll never leave you nor forsake you but has our Dave want to go down that road today cuz I'm
Simon Pinchbeck:gonna go certain places Jesus has left the building you
Reverend Ben Cooper:left the building, it lies certain places.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. It's it's mind blowing. We know we're back to
Simon Pinchbeck:when we sit. But in certain places, you know, it's very obvious because you know, you what is a dry? church, no spirit of the law, these guns, no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I cry noise, no noise noise.
Simon Pinchbeck:But on the other side, it looks good. It looks, you know, when we get into a, you know, Hillsong or a Bethel type atmosphere? way where it's a feel good factor here is how do you feel when you feel is it?
Reverend Ben Cooper:I feel nice? Because I'm driven by a different spirit.
Simon Pinchbeck:Different spirit. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Simon Pinchbeck:Always this guy is barking like a dog. Bless him. He's
Reverend Ben Cooper:got the spirit. Let's give him money. Not what, what, as the church come to? What is it almost stopped for words? Yes, like, module press finish now because you're thinking, What? What has the church done? Well, it certainly it's for this lockdown.
Simon Pinchbeck:It certainly ain't preaching.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We've fed that we've looked after,
Simon Pinchbeck:from the true Word of the Lord visit,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know, people are going to bark at us and all sorts of things are saying here, but but the question has to be asked, has the government recognized the spiritual power? within the church? No, because the government controls what goes on in the church.
Simon Pinchbeck:It does completely it controls
Reverend Ben Cooper:it will be put in the church over everything. Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that so
Simon Pinchbeck:is that is the deal. Ben, are, are some. The question is, are some churches, more fearful of men than they are God? assumptions is more fearful of what man thinks rather than what God? Are they step number God's Word?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's I think, like, just quickfire stuff here. Like, that's what is mentioned in the Gospel, isn't it? Are you pleasing man?
Simon Pinchbeck:Are you pleasing man?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Are you pleasing? God? Yeah. Who are you please? It is very clear to see, isn't it? Because I can't get this out of my thinking in my mind. And I don't keep bringing this, but it's got to be brought, where are the spiritual leaders of the denominations?
Simon Pinchbeck:I don't see in the world. You know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I can't, I'm struggling to see
Simon Pinchbeck:I do a lot of I look at a lot of things from the States because, you know, there's, there's a few that guys that you know, flying under the radar over there. And they sound exactly the same thing as what we're saying. And here we have a nation with mega churches. We just don't have them in the UK. We're talking like, we have 10,000 people in there saying the same thing. They've all gone down that
Reverend Ben Cooper:route. The religious wrote the Prophet.
Simon Pinchbeck:Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff. That is all gone down that road, and there's there's very few standing and going Hold on a minute.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right. So I take a measure of the church by the persecuted church, the persecuted church, in Iran, Syria. North Korea is growing at such a rate because they're being persecuted. They're being shot. They're being kicked out. Absolutely. We know what goes on. And you never hear any, any of that across mainstream media whatsoever. So the measure that we have to look at is the biblical measure of the church. Now, where do we see that in the world, we see that in the persecuted church, because that is the real church
Simon Pinchbeck:is a real church. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Growing up and the authorities are trying to shut it down. And it is moving because it's not about a building. It's about Christ in a person. They cannot stop the move of god they can burn the buildings they can blow them up they can do what they want they can shut the doors in the uk but they cannot stop the move of the word of god is a seed incorruptible seed and it is moving it is growing and you see it in the world of the persecuted church that is the real church of jesus christ not the westernized church
Simon Pinchbeck:is the truth ben are you sad to hear so great that's a great point to say that is that that you know in the western world use a club or in a club or in a club oh man and you know what i had the privilege last year of last year now is the year before two years ago cry of going to india and spending some time and speaking in these little churches you know above a shop or little room that was absolutely rammed full of people that glorify jesus one woman in this she said she can we pray for this lady she is burgled two days on the truck while she was while she was at the christian conference but the lord is great he's beautiful he's not woe is me now i'm giving it to
Reverend Ben Cooper:you right this is the hotbed of this persecuted church across the world is is rising it's rising and the authorities come in iran just one place in iran you walk down a road with a bible you're going to get him put in prison
Simon Pinchbeck:and throw away the key but
Reverend Ben Cooper:some of them that have been put in prison are saying this is god's will for me that i will be in prison and while i'm in prison i witness to those of the loss and salvation is happening behind prison doors the most filthiest and the most deprived prisons on earth god is in now working that is where the church is growing up persecuted the more you persecute it the more it grows and
Simon Pinchbeck:is the the strange thing about that the more it's persecuted the more freedom you get your more freedom you get in jesus christ so you're you imagine if you're in hindi if if you're in a hindu in india and you know listen men we'd love the indians we love the indians but there is a caste system and you imagine if your name is a certain name yeah you're never going to get any higher than that but in the belief of jesus you're free
Reverend Ben Cooper:from all that is free from or free from that
Simon Pinchbeck:yeah well and you're just you're a free soul living of living in freedom in the in the western world we're too bogged down with with our stuff anyway
Reverend Ben Cooper:politics documents
Simon Pinchbeck:got to do the right thing he
Reverend Ben Cooper:got to be politically correct man you know what was jesus politically correct
Simon Pinchbeck:we definitely yeah that's what they do and that's why you know in the in the real man for cross we have a number of fellas who really wouldn't fit in the church you know don't fit that feel and this is the thing you know and this is something we'll talk about another time but if you feel that you don't fit in yeah somewhere and i honestly believe jesus said his hand on you if you feel uncomfortable in certain areas gods goes hand on you
Reverend Ben Cooper:i don't belong this club i
Simon Pinchbeck:don't belong to this club there's something
Reverend Ben Cooper:missing in this club that isn't delivering my spiritual need yeah it's there with my physical it's dealing with what i see outside dealing with the external but it's not dealing with the internal
Simon Pinchbeck:let's all look good on the outside so he says so jesus says it then he took the pharisees and the ccn like you're not whitewash cops he said yeah feel free on inside nice and clean on the outside
Reverend Ben Cooper:shiny on the outside it just got jesus all over this isn't it so you can see all over so when we're looking at the text that we're looking at how how can the church be fishers of men when it doesn't know who christ is because if it really know christ it will be living as the scripture says if you really know jesus you'll be following jesus if you follow jesus you won't be doing the things and manipulate in creation marriage and everything else along the way you will believe and you would live so it doesn't recognize the messiah because
Simon Pinchbeck:you can't be fishers of men because you don't know or bennett i mean we we could go down because john free free you know corinthians 517 you've got a new creation in christ and he got you know he got to be born again
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah he got to die itself
Simon Pinchbeck:but the church is not saying that the church is saying just accept jesus and you're in
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's not
Simon Pinchbeck:his energy so it's a process keep coming every sunday and and you're there no you're not there's not what the bible says Use the Bible clearly says, copy BORN AGAIN
Reverend Ben Cooper:born again. Born Again when again, leaving the flesh. Let go the pride let go.
Simon Pinchbeck:Forgive. God so loved the world and he gave his only son that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We have he just got a look at certain denominations, they're they're some of the richest businesses on planet earth the fine art that they own entrance in you got to pay to go into certain places in God's house. It's God's house, but you got to pay to come in. And then at the at the gate, you've got the family that got no food. He got no got no food, but the church is dripping in gold and fine art. And speaking well. You got to pay to go in, travel around and it'll cost you a fortune. Come to God's house.
Simon Pinchbeck:Kiss the ring.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Give me 25 quid
Simon Pinchbeck:because the ring cord on your knees. Come on, as
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know, you got to
Simon Pinchbeck:say that and
Reverend Ben Cooper:then using the label Have we got the upkeep of the building? Well, it isn't about the building. We don't need a building. We need a savior. You can gather in a look at the persecuted church again, have they got fine sounding beautiful architecture buildings? No. They've just got sitting under a tree looking out for the soldiers. You don't need a building. But we've got fixation on building and rituals and structure. It's like a secret club. People must drive by churches and think what goes on in there? what goes on behind them for a walk? Well,
Simon Pinchbeck:well, yeah, you're right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Is it Masonic? What are you doing in there?
Simon Pinchbeck:We're not far away. And Ben, we're not far away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What are they doing in that what they're doing in that building? They're doing in there, I hide themselves away at certain hours. Got no windows in the building? Well, we lay down in there.
Simon Pinchbeck:And yet these this is people hanging on to little worn out. Bibles. World pages torn out by just rip pages of the text has been so warm. That is they're hanging on and
Reverend Ben Cooper:when you read stories about Bible smugglers that go into smugglers carrying Bibles into areas of of the world that you'd never want to even go to, but they're getting Bibles in and then when the suitcase opens and people are just, I've got to get a Bible. I've got to get a Bible. Cat Bible.
Simon Pinchbeck:We take things for granted don't we do? Yeah. And and these are the fishers of men. These are the fishers of men out there that go out there. I'm gonna call you know the smugglers we've said it many times.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Well, it's going on. Okay.
Simon Pinchbeck:We've said it many times that that little Gideons guys na Gideon spatters in the UK. They're relentless. You just love them. Don't You're
Reverend Ben Cooper:so full of it. So we'll fight for
Simon Pinchbeck:a little Gideons New Testaments one
Reverend Ben Cooper:cell phone, or cell phone cell Monday, not looking out for it. Just it's all cell funding. It's all it just blows my my thought pattern. And I think to myself, the gyms are opening on this date. pubs arrived on this date, and under the same category. The church is opening. And can we call it the church? Can we seriously call ourselves? The church? It begs the quick look. So the question yeah, yeah. Can we really say, Can we really we just another Corporation? Are we just another corporate entity? Yeah. It's just picked on money, notoriety. Yeah, lifting up leaders, business leaders giving him a warm
Simon Pinchbeck:welcome today. And oh, yeah, he's a copy of my book. You know, Praise
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Lord.
Simon Pinchbeck:seven ways to walk on water or whatever. I don't know. Let me sign it for you. There you go.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Give me a tip. And
Simon Pinchbeck:have you got a Bible? I don't know we got a Bible. So what I have for you that
Reverend Ben Cooper:safety policies we've got, we've got documents, we've got all that sort of stuff. Bibles, Bible. See, you know what it might sound light would be a very flippant but actually,
Simon Pinchbeck:miles away is
Reverend Ben Cooper:when you think about it. It's what's really happening, because if the church was being free Have men, there will be no crisis at the moment. There wouldn't be because this knows who it is and the identity of who it is in Christ Jesus, and his be like, you know, blessing, the persecuted church and he will be relentless.
Simon Pinchbeck:Well, we would pick but the voice will be so large that he had to be IRD
Reverend Ben Cooper:when it has to be heard. What we got? Silence.
Simon Pinchbeck:It's a bit like john MacArthur, in, in California, he's kept these church open, regardless of what the governor says he's kept it open. He's pushed and he's been threatened. And I said to him, I said to him the other time I saw the clip, he said, he said, they said to me, we're gonna move all the homeless into your car park, Praise the Lord. And he said, praise the Lord will convert more.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We want to reach the last
Simon Pinchbeck:thing you're gonna bring away. He said, Praise the Lord. You know, it ties
Reverend Ben Cooper:in on evangelism. To go and walk. That is what that's what should be happening. Yeah. fishers of men, appreciates the church in the UK fishers of men. Or is it self seeking? proud, arrogant, self seeking? Where's the line in the sand that that clearly defines church and state? Where is it? Where's the line? That's Jesus drew in the sand. They're
Simon Pinchbeck:cleaning their nets, I'm afraid.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And I've cleaned them for too long. And I'm not cleaning the Nets anymore. There's no time for cleaning nets.
Simon Pinchbeck:Let's get out of there. Let's throw the user net for what it's made for. And people
Reverend Ben Cooper:might go Yeah, but I'm not an event. It's not about being evangelists. It's about being up believer. I believe because as you believe, people watch people and listen, you don't need a pulpit. You don't need a church. Because you are the church,
Simon Pinchbeck:you are the church. You're commissioned, you're commissioned, and no one's teaching. They don't really teach about the commissioning do they don't really teach
Reverend Ben Cooper:it, you can go online, and you can pay five grand, and by the end of five grand, you've been evangelists and evangelists or you can go online and pay another five grand and then you'll become a leader. Or you can pay eight grand online in certain ministries. And you're going to be a healer at the end of 12 weeks.
Simon Pinchbeck:And you pay a bit more than be a product owner. And you can
Reverend Ben Cooper:tell people, you can buy a certificate for anything. You're just buying a certificate,
Simon Pinchbeck:I said Do we are gone and I was in a judge of England church, bless them, and they had an evangelistic course and he asked your course to be an evangelist. Wow.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It must be really powerful. It stops that we've come to the end.
Simon Pinchbeck:What What do we say? We just have a go for Jesus that we
Reverend Ben Cooper:believe in.
Simon Pinchbeck:light shone out. Oh,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. But the church has got more certificates hanging on the wall. You f&i Jane because the risk assessment you got
Simon Pinchbeck:to say that we have to be quick all be fishers of people we really have wherever you're listening to this cow and the sound of our voices, copy looking out and listening to the Lord and saying, Lord, Amen. Lord, would you want me to speak to who they are? Where do you want me to go? Even from behind the mask? You can make a difference. But yeah, I've made twice this week, twice this week just aren't enough. Just little things because you asked in our Lord, who do you want to speak to? That will go on the drive for a coffee wearing a mask? I just said, How are you this morning? She went, she smiled. You could see this morning. We're in the 32nd conversation. I said, Well, God bless you, us without you. Thank you very much. God
Reverend Ben Cooper:bless. There's a word that always stop saying
Simon Pinchbeck:that it will. It will there be a word in the bank and the same thing, the same thing with a lovely lady that just God bless you. And my mate mine who was on the buses always says God bless you. And the lady came up to him and said to him, I'll driver will God bless me. He said, Of course he will. We got to go anyway, that's what we were doing. Go for Jesus. We got to not worry about cleaning your niche. Just
Reverend Ben Cooper:keep it just keep. Keep work. Yes. Keep pressing. Yeah, pushing the Jesus Saman has been so good. You know, it's just cracked on again. But it's the nation for Jesus, or as a nation for Pharaoh.
Simon Pinchbeck:i'm afraid that the nation is for itself in it it's very much for itself it's not
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's not for jesus and i don't believe humanity really wants that but it's not not meant to be
Simon Pinchbeck:well is the thing it all looks good like everything that comes from the enemy looks good and once you get into it
Reverend Ben Cooper:the new ac is empty it's completely empty means nothing nothing it can only be
Simon Pinchbeck:filled by the relationship with jesus christ
Reverend Ben Cooper:the god of israel simon thank you so much for joining us this morning this hour this moment wherever we might be on the timeline of life we thank you so much for sharing everything that you shared this morning simon and may god bless everyone on the other side of our voice and wherever you may be in in the world just keep following christ just keep following christ just follow jesus just follow jesus you know and you've been listening to psalm pinchbeck myself Reverend Ben Cooper and you will find some buzzsprout spotify and in all the other areas and just stay stay close to jesus amen amen
Simon Pinchbeck:amen