Hello and welcome to elim church swanley you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast. Yeah, good afternoon. Thank you so much for joining us today. As you listen back to this podcast, we are gathering around a mic for a cup of coffee. And more importantly, we have the word of God, we are with Steve valor. And we are recording this podcast, our weekly podcast. And we thank God for his life and his study and the in depth study that he does. And we are in Isaiah 42 128. And also in the Gospel of john and we are looking at the glory of God a big, big subject. I know I say this every week that we record dates, but they are big subjects. And Steve does such a great job in just taking us in holding us there for a while and and bringing us back out. And we thank God for His understanding of the Word of God. And as we always do, so if you need any more information, please just contact us here. But Steve, welcome on everyone. How are we going? Are we ready to rumble?
Steve:Yeah, I just want to first off as with a little testimony.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:When you were preaching yesterday, the lord really met with me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Praise god.
Steve:He answered prayers for me that had been laid down over a long period of time. And he met with me and I know i was in tears. But Hey, who cares? But he met with me in a particular way yesterday. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's beautiful.
Steve:Yeah, it was fantastic. So I just want to thank God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amen. Good. Good news
Steve:Okay. So whilst This is called the glory of God, I suppose that the longer title would be the glory of God. And how easy it is to steal it from him?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah, I got that.
Steve:Right. So I want to read all of Isaiah 42 108. So I'm going to do right here is my servant, whom I support, my chosen one in whom I take pleasure, I have placed my spirit on him, he will make juste crease for the nations he will not cry out or shout, he will not publicize himself in the streets, a crushed read, he will not break a dim wick he will not extinguish he will faithfully might just decrease, he will not grow dim or be crushed. Before the establishing justice is sorry, before the establishing justice on the earth, the coastlands will wait in I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to read this again, he will not grow dim or be crushed before establishing justice on the earth, the coastlands will wait in anticipation for his decrease. This is what the true God the Lord says, the one who created the sky and stretched it out the one who fashioned the earth and everything that lives on it. The one who gives breast to the people on it, and life to those who live on it. I the LORD officially commission you, I take hold of your hand or protect you. You make a covenant mediator for people and a light to the nations to open blind eyes, to release prisoners from dungeons. To those who live in darkness from prisons. I am the Lord that is my name. I will not share my glory with anyone else. Or the praise do me with idols. Wow, go straight to 17. When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked up to heaven and said, Father, the time has come glorify Your son so that your son may glorify you, just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life that they know you the only true God in Jesus Christ. And he's saying, I glorified you on earth by completing the work you got me to do. And now Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you. Before the world was created. Now I want to hold it there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah.
Steve:Isaiah 42. Basically, it's about the Lord Jesus Christ. Reverse cycle says, I will not share my glory with anyone else that that
Reverend Ben Cooper:that really made my antenna pop up. I must be honest with you there because that punches everything out the window.
Steve:Yeah. And then Jesus pops up and says, glorify me with the glory I had with you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:At the beginning. Is that that that's in john, isn't
Steve:that's in john
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that that's another area where
Steve:and so what? you take these two scriptures and come together and you know
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know
Steve:that christ is god because he shares a glory
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:with God who will share it with no one else.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No human being no preacher, no teacher.
Steve:So the only way that Jesus can share in his glory is that he is one with his father.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And that is in verse five. john chapter 17. Now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with you, before the world began. Already from the nav and stays right now the ESB Is that correct?
Steve:Actually, no.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So as Steve has said, It is really clear that God will not share His glory with no one. No one.
Steve:But Jesus is saying, to share. And now Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it. Just Yeah,
Steve:Okay, so now we ask the question, what is glory?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What is the glory?
Steve:What is the glory? Well, the glory in, in one sense, in a physical sense is that dynamic light, which comes out of God, which exposes the darkness, which crushes the darkness is brilliant, is brilliant, which is, shall we say, here so holy, so true.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:So wonderful, so loving, so merciful, that he cannot hold it within himself. It has to burst out of him. Oh, that's a bad description. No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, that's not that's not that's a great description, because me being me. I work with pictures, and I'm just trying to pick I can picture that. But what I picture is nothing to what it really is. The glory is so strong, so holy is so pure. Humanity cannot stand in that glory.
Steve:Now, the other aspect of glory can just tell us
Reverend Ben Cooper:when we look at Moses when he was at the burning bush,
Steve:yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Scripture, am I right in saying where the scripture says that his countenance changed,
Steve:wasn't with a burning bush, it was when he was up north.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it was a mountain
Steve:came down, and again, wherever his face covered, because he glowed with the glory of God with the reflected glory of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that is, that is an important part of what we're looking at that that you will change if you've been in his presence.
Steve:Yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:in that amount of glory, that radiance, that glory,
Steve:yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that it was so strong, his countenance had been completely changed. So when we hear all these people in the false side saying that they've been with God and all that it got the scripture tells me straight away that no one can share this beautiful practice holing. But Jesus, so that puts a flat liner, a hammer on everything that we've heard.
Steve:Yeah, I mean, especially some turns up says, I'm God. I mean, come on,
Reverend Ben Cooper:hang on. No, you can't do that. So the false prophets, and no, this false teaching that we speak about a lot, which we need to, because we said, keeping an eye on a weather eye on all the things that are going on, to see where the world sits with the Word of God. So this is very clear today to me that no one no one has been into that place, can share the glory can have the glory, apart from the Son and the father.
Steve:Yes, exactly.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it.
Steve:And whilst I said about the physical aspects of it, the glory that Jesus is talking about here is the honor the honor of being God. Yes. Right. It is something which is an actual fact. It's not added to him. It's not taken away from him when he talks about We glorify Him. I don't want to get into that later. We don't add to God's glory.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No,
Steve:neither can we take away from God's glory,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we cannot attain
Steve:he is the Honored One
Reverend Ben Cooper:with us or without us
Steve:with us or without us. He is the Honored One. He doesn't need us to say how wonderful he is. No, he knows how wonderful he is,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Steve:he doesn't need us to worship Him. And then we mark and puffy him up. Because seriously, when we come down to worship, one of the reasons that we come to this place of worship, and this place of honor that is honoring him. It humbles us.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:And in so doing, draws us to him. Remember, it says God resists the proud, Yeah, all right. But he accepts the humble. God's desire is to draw us to himself. On one of the ways that occurs, is when we humble him and humble ourselves in truth there and worship Him, truly, and honor him. Truly,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Steve:with both the words of our mouth and the lives which we live. And so this honor, which we give to him yet, because he deserves it, because he is God. And then, on top of that, he honors us already by sending his son and we give him thanks, and praise and glory and honor. And in all of this, we say you are the one true God. All things come from you. You have created all things you are above all things What does it do? It humbles us and in the humility draws us closer to him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And as it as it draws us closer to him, am I right in saying as well, that we become brought more under conviction by the power of the Holy Spirit. So we analyze and we look more than we and as we seek, it's the closer we come here, the closer we come, we say the brighter is like, shines upon our soul and gives us understanding. And we look and go, Whoa, I've got to this needs to be dealt with. So the,
Steve:from that, yes. Aspects? Yes. Because what we, as young Christians, what we considered, was seen or was wrong. in the sight of God. There were certain things that we continue to do. As we grew, God said, no deal, deal with it, deal with it, deal with it, deal with it, and so on and so forth.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So on the humbling expect the humbling road, the journey,
Steve:yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it deals with sin, obviously, as well. And it deals with everything. It deals with everything.
Steve:I mean, in the sense of when God when God reveals something is wrong within us. We should give thanks to him for what he's done, so that we can deal with it before.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that so we don't go, oh, Hang on a moment. That's me. God tells us and shows us Yeah, because we are sinners by nature.
Steve:Yeah. And he hates what he sees, and it doesn't want us to walk in it, because he's loved for us is to draw into himself. So when he convicts us in our sins,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes,
Steve:we say thank you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:thank you,
Reverend Ben Cooper:thank you, Lord. He's working within us
Steve:working with us as to wanting to work with school pleasure,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because as a human being, and our world in a fallen world that we live in the fallen state and society that we look at, and the amount of of dross in the Abyss that I feel sometimes we're in this this black hole of almost a non return in place. And the darker it feels, but his light is shining brighter, and his his glory is is shining through.
Steve:Yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:his presence is drawing us. And as he draws us, as Steve says, sometimes we can feel I feel a bit gritty, because it's got to be the power of the Holy Spirit. Because he's revealing things which he doesn't. We got to there's got to be dealt with.
Steve:He likes these. This has got to be dealt with.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, but
Steve:he wants to deal with it. But we he knows what's already there. It shines upon us. And are we going to be humble enough to bow before him and say, forgive me?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:and deal with this, please?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And more. Thank you for showing me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Thank you for showing me Thank you. That, although this was hidden from me, you've revealed it to me. And you've given me the strength and, and the joy to deal with it before.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know, it's interesting what Steve said, it's been hidden from us. But sometimes, when I just thinking about what Steve said, it's been hidden from us. I could live in it quite comfortably in the flesh. But when he reveals that to me, what a pull up that is, why in a minute, I've been living like that. And I felt comfortable in that. But God, now you're revealing that narrative. Only you can deal with that.
Steve:Can i tell you a story about Wickliffe Wickliffe, who was called the morning started reformation, during the 14th century in this country, began to look at the Word of God and began to understand that a lot that was coming out around windows corrupt and evil and wrong. And before Luther came on the scene, he started to stand against it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:I think he's he had a protector in, I think it was john have gone. It was very powerful juke in his country at the time. And Wickliffe was able to develop an understanding of the word will be he was using the Latin vulgate. He wasn't a Hebrew or Greek scholar. But he began to develop understandings through the Word of God, that so many practices were wrong and evil. And he spent many, many years standing against these things, and declaring how wrong they were.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Now, during that period of time, he had to have someone like john Galt backing him up. My sons Luther needed the prince of forgotten where he was, but yeah, to have him back because otherwise the pope would had him and get him killed,
Reverend Ben Cooper:killed,
Steve:right but galt, looked after him. Now Wickliffe carried on in this way for over the years, building up building up building up building up, and God was building up something within him. He was building a strength in him. And he was building in him a place where he was going to have to face a very difficult situation. And that situation was the communion. Because at that time, everybody believed in transubstantiation. Yeah everybody believed that only a priest could say the words over the bread and wine. And you know, the whole thing, the whole, God convicted were Wickliffe of the abomination of the mess. But the point being is this, he allowed him to take the mess for many, many years before we brought conviction to him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it was all taken time and step by step. And he was in that and he believed it. And then suddenly the Holy Spirit God revealed it to him.
Steve:Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is changing,
Steve:but he didn't reveal it to him until he knew that Wickliffe could receive it and do something about it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's really encouraging. I hope you picked up like I have from this from Steve, what he's told us through this great story was that God will strengthen us, without us in the room, really understanding not to be able to deal with the way that we may have lived the way that we may have, like he took of the communion, time and time and time and years and years. And then suddenly, what's this Lord? What are you doing? So he had to stand up against the
Steve:everybody. I mean, at the time when he stood up there, I think, even galt got a bit wobbly. But he, God preserved his life. I cant remember when he died, late 14th century I can't remember
Reverend Ben Cooper:i don't know.
Steve:But he was able to stand and decided to be before Luther was ever around. He stood up said, the mess is a corruption. God hates what an eruption that must have bolt. And he had to stay in all by himself, stayed all by himself. But God strengthened him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's interesting, God would have strengthened him for a long time before this, even though he was still taking of the bread and the wine.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And God was working in that.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And God was working in it. Right. So So why do you persecute me?
Steve:And the thing about it is that God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Steve:through His revelation Wickliffe, glorified God, God are buying God and serving God and declaring the truth of what God showed him about the mess.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's a really interesting, uncountable people taking off the mess done in a done in a strict religious order. And then suddenly, one that have been involved in that has gone. No, no. In front of everybody here to stand up. And know that he's life could have been taken.
Steve:Yep.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Very easy. Another thing that you said that makes me make me smile is that the pope could kill anybody.
Steve:Yes, yes. In that time, he could.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know, what
Steve:he was? Well, it was the world power.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He was the world power the world leader. It's interesting when they sit today, isn't it with the world power and what's and what they're all engaged in behind closed doors, everything that's going on, with the engagement of all sorts of the political arena.
Steve:Oh, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:There's not much changed
Steve:in the Pope has always been a political power.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:wrapped up in in ermine and pearls. And spouting religion.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:But basically, it's an earthly power
Reverend Ben Cooper:it is an earthly power. Wow. The glory of God will strengthen you wherever you are. And whatever you're facing, a Steve has said he is strengthen us in the journey that we're in, and then thank God for His power in his glory will reveal that to us. So it's not for us to worry, is it?
Steve:No, you see, there's another point where he knows the appointed that we have
Reverend Ben Cooper:the appointed time,
Steve:alright. He knows the appointments we have. And what he's doing right now. is strengthening in us, so that we can stand in the day.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I feel that Yeah, I like that. I like that. But there is a there is I do also believe there is a gentle move. Can I say unbelievers that are starting to have their eyes opened? Hang on. I know that I'm going to have to stand at one point.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And whether it's alone, it will be but I'm not alone. But I do believe God is revealing things to believers.
Steve:Yes. And so when we see this work of God in the heart of men. What mercy what love
Reverend Ben Cooper:beyond
Steve:what majestic mercy and
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can't describe it.
Steve:No, I say you are wonderful Lord, and
Reverend Ben Cooper:you've chose
Steve:you are marvelous. You are majestic. you hid this man sin from him?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Even though you hated what he was doing. You wait, this means sick from him until you've made him strong enough to be able to face it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that is so true for life today. Things are hidden. In him while we still while I was a sinner, you still chose me?
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:While I was still in the process, you was working in the process through the process before the protests began. Midway
Steve:I mean, Paul himself is a is a case he is a
Reverend Ben Cooper:classic example
Steve:it persecute the church. He conspired to murder Christians.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:but God chosen to serve Him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's beyond beyond human reason. And isn't it? It's just the opposite. So this is where we see God getting glory.
Steve:Glory. Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is what we're talking about. This is where God gets the glory,
Steve:he gets the glory.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But it's not the glory that we are referring to earlier about the brilliance and the brightness.
Steve:This is the that's the aspects, Yeah, that's the aspect of God, the glory that we give God is we when we see these effects, and we think you put up with me, you put up with me,
Reverend Ben Cooper:You created me. And you dealt with me?
Steve:Yeah, I mean, for years and years and years to draw my stumblings or my 40s. You never turn away.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No, keep working.
Steve:You kept working on it. You can do it. Thank you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Now not continue to do that work. So I can only give the more
Reverend Ben Cooper:sighs always giving glory to the father.
Steve:But it's not it's not in a forced way.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No,
Steve:it's it's in a way of Thanksgiving.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:God doesn't force things out of us.
Reverend Ben Cooper:The word thanks isn't enough, is it? There isn't any word in the English language that I can describe how thankful I am to him
Steve:no
Reverend Ben Cooper:, when I say I'm thankful that feels really line. It's the language that we know those. But we know that we know don't we deep in that Noah, so to speak? We know what we're talking about. It's that?
Steve:Yeah. Now the area, as I said, that says, How easy is it to steal from God or steal his glory? We have this man john Wycliffe.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:He studies the Word of God proclaims the Word of God all as the Word of God. And God honors him in return. Yeah. What do we have to die? We have a church that dishonor is the word of God, therefore dishonors God, and so he dishonors them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes,
Steve:right. The reason that the world is in the state that it's in, is because the church has dishonored God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:it has lost its souls and its light. So the body has grown rank. And civilization walks in darkness.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:there's no use saying the country turned away from God. He was never always God in the first place. We spoke about the fact that we all are born under duress. All you can't get any further than that. You're on the right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're under it.
Steve:Right? That's
Reverend Ben Cooper:from the beginning.
Steve:So you can't say you turn away from God, you turn towards God. But the people who bear the brunt of the church we bear the brunt because we have lost their soul. We have lost our light. And we have caused the body to grow rank and walking beyond
Reverend Ben Cooper:So there's a clear line in the sand is no good. keep blaming the world It's nothing to do is to do with
Steve:where the salt where to light
Reverend Ben Cooper:not then we are the salt in the light.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And it has lost that.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we can't keep looking outside going on in them centers outside. No, no. I just look in, in within there click within the church.
Steve:Yes, within the church
Reverend Ben Cooper:within and can I say the body of Christ? Because I know there's a is such a difficult way to to present now the moment isn't it? Because when you look at the church, the church is up to so many things that are wrong. But then we talk about the body of Christ, as the scripture says, which is entirely different, isn't it?
Steve:Yes, it's is
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's very difficult how to present things. When you're teaching and preaching. Or when you go to the church, you got to try and bring a clear distinction between
Steve:I think the only way you can distinguish it now is that you've got the remnant. Yeah, you've got the so called church.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yeah.
Steve:And even but even call it the so called church is wrong because they are responsible for their actions because they name Christ as Lord. If you name Him as Lord, it says in one of the one of the commandments, that you should not bear. You should not use the name of the Lord your God invite in vain or bear his name in vain. What does it mean? Well, I am a Christian, therefore, I am an ambassador before the world, I bear his name. My actions bring either honor or dishonor, via it's either a vine action, or it's not.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And so we have to understand that whatever We do or say or think, in the realms of our time together as Christians. Whenever opportunity opens it up to talk to people that are non Christians. We need to understand at that point, we are an ambassador, we bear the name of the Lord. We carry his name.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right.
Steve:And we are responsible for what we say and do and think.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yep,
Steve:we can either honor him. Or we can dishonor him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And the way the majority of the churches today, is it dishonored him, because if it turns away from the sound Word of God, it turns away from the cell doctrines of God, we have these people that keep insisting that they're going up and down to heaven, when there is no biblical foundation for what they say. They appeal to Paul, but they don't appeal far enough. Because we know what happened to Paul. So they lie about what's going on. They continue to lie, because they speak about things that they were supposed to have seen in the heavenly realms when Paul was not allowed to speak. And when we look at people like Ezekiel, or even john, when they speak, they have to speak in such terms. Wheels within wheels, what does that mean? What does that feel with eyes? Hi. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's not a language we understand
Steve:not and so easy to could only say what he could say with the language he hated.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And the same was john, because he was taken, they're taken into a different realm.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, different, different dimension that we can't understand. So when we got the false prophets and teachers trying to snatch the glory for themselves,
Steve:well, that's what they're doing. They're stealing God's glory. They're stealing his glory, because they're not giving him honor through His Word.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And when they use this natural language that we're talking about now, they're using words that we understand, but really, they're not heavily. It's not a heavenly language, not like the language of Ezekiel. No, it's not because they couldn't explain what they say.
Steve:They couldn't. Because it's beyond this beyond which of Maine to explain
Reverend Ben Cooper:it. It's beyond the vocabulary, No words can describe it. They was privileged to see it and try it and then trying to articulate what they say was just wills in wills eyes. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Well, it's not gonna make sense. If you
Steve:if you look at some of the paintings of William Blake, who tried to paint the things in the bible,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Steve:they're kind of and these things that you look at, you can't they are inexpressible.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that's scripture. They are in in a spray device. And it was kept from me from telling you
Steve:Yes. Daniel seal up.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:I mean, it hit him so hard he had to go to bed
Reverend Ben Cooper:made him ill
Steve:It made him ill
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah.
Steve:You know. And so these, these, People, these liars,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. Do you think
Steve:thats what they are, they're liars
Reverend Ben Cooper:And they get caught in that delusion, that that delusion, they believe every they, they're in a world we're in
Steve:because Satan is deluded them, And hook line and sinker
Reverend Ben Cooper:taken and they've run with it. And
Steve:and they do not honor the Word of God, because they don't go back to the word of god to check out what they're going through.
Reverend Ben Cooper:The Scripture is far from their lips. on them, what we find is certain people fall on them within the church, which builds up them as a person. And then suddenly you're, you're, you're in this area of Look at me,
Steve:yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And then suddenly, you get caught in this lie. You get caught in a delusion. And you're just feeling it. It's been fueled by liars and and words that are not true. And look at the prophecies that have been said, and this being completely the opposite to what's been happening.
Steve:And then they say, Well, you know, we were practicing to be prophets. I mean, what does that mean? Is there a preface to Isaiah that I never read?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Is there a preamble to zekiel that I never read? He's there a preface to Jeremiah that I never read
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've got 4000 wrong, and I'm gonna get one. You know, it's just like,
Steve:just practicing boys.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's
Steve:the whole thing is a joke. And then when I say if I get the prophecy wrong, it doesn't mean I'm a false prophet, or
Reverend Ben Cooper:hang on,
Steve:what does it make you then? a bus driver
Reverend Ben Cooper:milkmen. absolutely just,
Steve:it's stupid. And then I will get upset because people call him a false prophet. Well, listen, pal, you're being upbraided for a reason. refuse to listen, you might go away and repent, and come before the Lord and seek His forgiveness. And who knows he may make you a real prophet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He may well do that. But we can see that they're after what they're after glory.
Steve:Glory,
Reverend Ben Cooper:God's glory. There we go. So this is where it runs round to it come back to the full circle, a conversation that we're in, is no one can share my glory. He's not you can't know, human beings won't understand it. They can't get near it. It will, it will burn you up. You can't live in it. So if we was to go to when we look at Revelation, when john said, I felt as if I was dead. When we look at the brilliance, the brightness, that glory what that must have been what was a wonder what that was, like intrigues me to think about, you know what? I'm not worried. But I'm thinking oh, my gosh, he's so powerful.
Steve:Of course it is. So, go go back to Dr. Wickliffe. All right. God is not going to reveal that to you until your
Reverend Ben Cooper:course. Yeah. It's just that you think you read the scriptures. And I think our john, he felt as if I was dead. Thinks, Steve is turning away in the book of,
Steve:well, I want to go into the book of Romans. Yeah, because I want to throw a spanner in the works here. Come on now is going to upset an awful lot of people. You want to find out that my fan in Romans I know I'll pick it up in verse 26. In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God's will. We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to His purpose, because those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that he sang should be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called, and those he called he also justified, and those He justified, he also glorified. There is a teaching that is prevalent in the church, and it has grown stronger and stronger over the years. Based on this particular aspect of Romans, and it runs something like this, this aspect of God's foreknowledge. What it really means is that he knew that I was going to choose him. So when it says that he chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world, he looked down the tunnel of time, knew I was gonna choose him, so he chose me. That's the biggest load of hogwash I've ever heard, primarily, because if that is true, then why is God wasted his time building a theology that really is empty? Why do we talk about election? Calling? choice? If all of these things if all it is, is I just need to choose God? Why did he build a theology to tell everybody there he chose me and in choosing me chose all of his children. It's an offense. You say God's choice is an offense, we must have our choice. We, we must. It says in the Word of God, would the old man was saved and come to a knowledge of the truth?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:yes, I'm sure he would. But they
Reverend Ben Cooper:don't. They don't. So that's where we bring into the the arena of this conversation where preachers and teachers say the whole city is going to be saved. It's not No.
Steve:And if we go back to Romans two, or let me read it,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah.
Steve:Rather than Romans out, it's not Romans two, it's Romans three,
Reverend Ben Cooper:Romans chapter three.
Steve:And it says, verse Nine, and what then are we better off? Certainly not four. We have already charged that Jews and Greeks are like, all are under sin. Just as it is written, there is no one righteous, not even one marries no one who understands there is no one who seeks God all of turned away. Together, they become worthless. There is no one who shows kindness, not even one. their throats are open graves, they deceive with their tongues, the poison of ASPs is under their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, ruin and misery are in their pals and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. That is all of humanity, that now you tell me Our main light that can choose and choose a holy God. Right?
Reverend Ben Cooper:No way
Steve:in john 15, and I think it's a 16 Jesus says to His disciples use You have chosen me. But I have chosen you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:right. He didn't go through all the faffing about, I've looked down the tunnel of time, I knew that you were going to choose me. So I chose you first.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I wanted to be first. He chose you.
Steve:Right? You see, you've picked up a good point I wanted to bring on God, and I want you to be first. If he's so insecure,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the insecurities
Steve:got is God is so insecure. This is a nonsense if he if he is all down to me choosing him. All right. All you have to do is write these words, something along the lines of all those who choose to follow me, I will honor with life, and I will raise them up at the last but it doesn't say that doesn't say that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It goes in when you is reading that I was like, scaring the mice.
Steve:Just one thing. I mean, you got to refreezes. You got to assess alone. And you go through the whole of the book of the Bible, and it is God's choice. He's called his election. I mean, I've read some of the things that try to justify how it is that we choose God and how we therefore become elect. And we come cold and we become chosen. I'm sorry, it's confused. When I see a bloke or several people standing for MP into the Houses of Parliament. Why aren't elects until I get all the votes?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, you're not in
Steve:you're not in your elected to get in?
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right.
Steve:He doesn't choose himself to go in. He doesn't say I choose to go in, I might choose to be considered. But until the population elect me, I am not elected.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm not in. But the scripture makes it very clear. No human being can choose only god no one. No one cares. But then we come into what Steve was talking about earlier is Grace is mercy. Beauty is majesty, that he decides he's chosen.
Steve:Yeah, he's, I mean,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he's chosen me.
Steve:But if we simply look back at that point of when Jesus spoke to the disciples, you think you have chosen me? I have chosen you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Paul, I have chosen him. Now what is the difference between the 12 Ds only 11 disciples that were there because Judas had already gone out and do his duty deed. And as long
Reverend Ben Cooper:there is no difference.
Steve:They might be crowned with more honor and glory because of the choice that God has made on their life. But they are no different between your mere men of men and blobs of flesh and blood yet sinners. corrupt,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I think what, what has also brought into this conversation, the well, what I'm going to bring into this is what we've been hearing for a long time now the seeker friendly church. What do you want? That's what's gonna make you want to come to church to seek? What is all that rubbish? That is the opposite to what that says,
Steve:Christ died for your sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes,
Steve:corrupt and rotten, stinking horrible. But God loves you. And if you will accept what he says. Now there is an aspect of cold. Yes. And there is an aspect of acceptance. Yes. But when we get through to the other side, we realize what God has drawn me to his son as Christ said, in the Gospel. He's done. No one comes to me other than the father draw him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No. No,
Steve:the father draws men to me
Reverend Ben Cooper:the gift of salvation.
Steve:Right? And I know the other aspect that if, if, if I'm raised up, I will draw all men unto me, I understand that as well. Yeah. But drawing that Wayne sits where God draws to the sun. Because he goes on to say, and All that the Father gives me, I will lose. No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:exactly. Yeah,
Steve:I will lose now. So if you wish to continue saying that you were the one that chose God. And that makes me higher with God. If you say that God chose you because he knew you were going to choose him. I would suggest that you're stealing the glory from God or I would suggest this you better guy Well, we got because he is stealing from you. You should be glorified and honored for choosing God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly. Yeah, spin it right around.
Steve:Yeah, I mean, seriously, that's it. You should be honored and glorified by God because you chose to follow him. You chose to believe in his son and that
Reverend Ben Cooper:that gives me super power to choose a you know, you get
Steve:just wait there god, ill telly you when it's time for me to choose you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm just gonna live these 65 dirty years first, and then I'll come to you.
Steve:Yeah. It's a lot of nonsense. It's
Reverend Ben Cooper:an excuse to continue. The rubbish
Steve:not so much an excuse to continue basically what it is it's this desire for to promote man's free will go He wants us to freely choose him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay?
Steve:Well, if we go back to the Roman Ryan's three, no, no, he's going to freely choose him. He's already said. So as
Reverend Ben Cooper:a real heavy text you've read, no one's going to choose and that was Romans chapter three verse. It's not that reference. So for everyone out there listening, this is a, I think is an important race
Steve:from nine to 18.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Romans chapter three, nine to 18.
Steve:And so what it says here, there is not one person on this earth before this was stated, and don't forget, this comes out of the Old Testament. There's not one person after this is stated now, who sinks God?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:no one.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No one
Steve:is no one. No one. No one does. No one except me. They'll say no one except you
Reverend Ben Cooper:except the 144.
Steve:And as I say, when Jesus said to His disciples, yep, you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. Now. Who is the liar?
Reverend Ben Cooper:that sits really nice with me. No.
Steve:Have you chosen God?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Oh, gosh, that you
Steve:can carry on and do as you please. Pal cause im not going down that road with you
Reverend Ben Cooper:I know, I'm not going down. And do you know what? This gives me comfort to know that he chose me? Yes, I could. Because I'm in that. I'm there. It's me.
Steve:It's my nostrils of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:I'm Romans three on Romans seven next, me. Yeah. God, corrupt and evil and a stench. But the back comes into it, then it but
Reverend Ben Cooper:he chose
Steve:he chose me. There's nothing good about me. There's no reason why you should choose me. There's there's nothing about me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What can I offer him? Nothing? Nothing. Absolutely. There's nothing a human being can offer. The God of Israel.
Steve:He then brings this into the kingdom of his son.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But then people go Oh, yeah. But he created for his good pleasure and his goodwill.
Steve:Yes, he did. Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's his purpose.
Steve:His purpose. His purpose is not to. Yeah, the good ol Westminster Confession was the chief end of man, to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. He's the other thing about the glorification of God glory, when Satan seeks the glory. Right? He sits like an idol on your head, a soul saying, Come worship me come and worship me. Yeah. And people base themselves and they slashed their wrists, and they do all they do. Yeah, right. But the old man of God understood something. What's the chief end of man, to glorify God and enjoy him for ever? We come back to the aspect of humility. I humble myself by the grace of God under God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:amen.
Steve:And I am brought into a relationship with him, and I can enjoy him and my pride. I don't want my if my pride is going to get in my way of having communion with my God, they let me die now
Reverend Ben Cooper:die to self
Steve:let me die. And I do not want anything getting in the way.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It can't get in the way
Steve:I don't want anything getting in the way. And for me, he says, I've shown you a man what is good on what does the Lord require of you, but act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Amen. When Jesus says, I am lonely, and humble of hearts of me. I am lowly and humble of heart. That again, I yoke upon you the opposite to what we're hearing again, we come down to this Take my yoke upon you and what do we say the other week? We are yoked with him. He's not sitting on some pedestal. Now. He's here is right next to me.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:I in yoked with my Lord, or in my master doesn't say go and plow the field. He says, Come on. We're gonna plow
Reverend Ben Cooper:together, together. Together. So he stepped down. He stepped down from glory. He right
Steve:he lay down. What's the song? He laid down His Majesty. That's it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That old traditional song
Steve:he laid down His Majesty,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he come down. And as the scripture says, He comes down 14 generations come through 14 generations.
Steve:And he laid down His Majesty,
Reverend Ben Cooper:to walk with humanity.
Steve:And if people don't like what I say, I really don't care. I'm not bothered. Please don't have to walk your walk i have to walk my walk. And if you want to disagree with me, says the Bible, disagree according to the word and come back with a good I don't care about what they're interested in.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They can't come back
Steve:when nobody doesn't matter, even if they do because i know i've i've wrestled with this subject over many years with the law and you're at peace.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Alright, you've reached us. I understand
Steve:that there is this aspect of means free will. And I understand there's this aspect of God's sovereignty. I understand that I'm not stupid. I'm not an idiot. And I spent years in reading the Word and trying to come to an understanding of it. And the way the only way that I can come to it is that God is suffering. He revealed Himself through His Word. There are certain things he does not reveal. And there are certain things that I am not allowed to look into. Yeah, he will hold it back. He will hold it back. Yeah. And he has chosen he has elected. I mean, no, no forget talk to some woman online. She said the election is not in the Bible. I beg your pardon. Oh, no city election is a biblical and so what Bible you're in and died. But I've, you know, it's, it's this man must have his free will. Okay, have your free will do what you like, I don't care. I know my God. And I know my Lord. And I know why I serve him. I understand my understood, I get my understanding through the Word of God. If people don't like what I say, I don't
Reverend Ben Cooper:care. Because you're comfortable. Because free
Steve:is so low. If yours. Yes, yeah. And I'm not gonna argue with people. I'm not gonna deep bites it we people, I couldn't care less for it. But no, no, I might waive the Greek at me in the Hebrew or Greek scholar on a Hebrew scholar, but my understanding of the word as I read it, as it's revealed, and God reveals that,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and God has revealed that
Steve:and my understanding is this, that he is sovereign. Amen. That what he purposes to do, here, I do what I will, and no man will reverse it. My word fulfills that which I sent out. So to do Calvary, avoid, praise God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:His Word. You know, this had been a real good chat today, you know, just gathering around the scriptures in Steve's posts and beautiful scriptures. And we've been in Romans chapter three, john chapter 17, and Isaiah 42, verses one through two, eight, the glory of God, no man can walk, can steal it, and home man can say that. It's on them. You know, it is just glorious. You will find that so clearly in the scripture that we've been reading in. And I just want to repeat as the scripture says, In Isaiah 42, verse eight that Steve read out, I am the Lord. That is my name. I will not yield my glory. Another or my praise to idols. That's it.
Steve:That's it
Reverend Ben Cooper:done. We're out. We're walking out. Good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening. Thank you for joining us, as Steve has taken us in. He's brought us out and we thank God, that the glory belongs to Jesus. The glory is God the glory is and always will be him. wherever you are. We thank you so much for sharing these podcasts that we do. We'll catch you next week. Have a great day, wherever you are on planet earth, and just keep following the word discover your words. Okay. Take care. Bye bye.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa, mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.