Hello, and welcome to Elim church swanley y u're joining myself, Reverend B n Cooper for today's podcast. T ank you wherever you are t day, we just want to say my g d bless you and strengthen y u, as we always do as we start t ese podcasts. We've got Steve i the house with us today and w are going in and we are l oking at that word sin, w llfulness of sin and the four d fferent areas that Steve is g ing to reveal to us. And it's g od to have him back with us t an just for a quick reference. T e references that we're in t day are Psalm 51, verses five t rough to six, Romans chapter s ven, verses nine through e ght, nine sorry, yeah, thanks, S eve. And Hebrews chapter 10, v rse 26, and I think we might p p into Colossians. Is that c rrect? It's 1.14. We're gonna k ep that at that. There we go. W got the reference, Steve, we t ank you for coming. And as we d weekly, and we are really g ing to push in today. This is g od stuff when we've had a p eamble or a little discussion, a d I'm looking really forward t this. So Steve, welcome. L t's go without further ado, l t's get straight in
Steve:Good afternoon. Yes, sin. It's a difficult subject to deal with.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Very.
Steve:It's not that teachers of the word shy away from it, other than it is is difficult. And we have to understand that all of us, no matter who we are, have to deal with sin. Whether we are unsaved, or whether we're saved sin is a condition of the Fallen man.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes,
Steve:you can't get away from it. You can't
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's impossible.
Steve:So as you all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that gives me a lot of comfort. As I'll keep keep quoting that a lot lately because, as I said to Steve earlier, what this lockdown has done is really open myself up more to Christ and suddenly realised, as the scripture says, a wretched man am I have, we spent lots of time discussing through preaching and teaching and through Steve, with these podcasts, I've suddenly realised that Lord, you've got to clean me up more. I'm not happy. I'm not happy. There's nothing major going on. It's just, it's just lots of things. It's lots of thoughts. It's lots of areas of life that I just want to be more like Jesus. And if you ever had that thought that the more you want to be like Jesus, the more you feel like I can never get, I can't get him and get near it.
Steve:Yes, very, very nicely. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:that frightened me
Steve:these, this kind of conversation with myself, sort of there's the freedom or the 5000, where would you be? id be up the back, not at the front, I wouldnt be able to stand it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll bow my head and keep me head down. But it's, life is tough. If you are a believer and you you've gone through lockdown, and you've come out of lockdown, and you are really seeking Him. it doesn't look good, too. You know, it's it's Church has been preached in such a wrong gospel for so long. But as we said at the beginning of this and off the mics that the responsibility sits with me. Now I've got to say, God, I'm out on the denomination I'm coming out of under this, the preacher, I'm not listening to that, because I need to be under sound doctrine, and I want to come under conviction of sin. I don't believe the church for many years Dave do is preached the gospel that has brought us under conviction.
Steve:No, I don't think so. You see, one of the problems over the years has been if we look at if we take evangelism, yeah, certainly the evangelism that I've been exposed to over the years, it Gee, you're here, Jesus died for your sins.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:And he is desirous to save you. But if you're talking to someone, just generally in the world, they probably haven't got a clue what you're talking about now. And so there is a need to preach in sound doctrine, what we are as men, hell, we are under condemnation in the wrath of God. What God has provided in his son to set us free.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And you man, will you accept this which God is offering you? And and you have to build it up. But I think one of the problems over the years is that because the numbers in the churches dwindled. There was this if we can make a shorthand gospel,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, make a nice show of everything, We'll make it attractive come in
Steve:And we've there's been a tendency to stay away from sound doctrine because they think people won't stand for it. You know, they'll get up and leave. But the serious aspect, the truth about it is that it Any one who is of God now whether this is regenerate or unregenerate? Yeah, if you are of God and you're being drawn by the father to the Son, you will not be repelled by sound doctrine. In actual fact, you want to drink it up?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Because it's refreshing.
Steve:It's very refreshing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And it's, it's opening up you to the real gospel and saying, you know what, there is hope for me.
Steve:Yeah. And seriously, at the end of the day, over the years, where people have our cast iron at church all year with us, he's talking about this that and the other. Well, good bye, you know, you're not really, you're we're only in unless you're gonna find Christ later down the road where he's going to find you. You're just there to wear out saints
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:You know, you I'm sure you as a minister of you know, people come up you listen ben you should be teaching on this, or you should be teaching on that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:i do yeah, I get it
Steve:get it. And over the years, I think that ministers some have accepted that and tried to go down there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I have,
Steve:as I say, You've this area of building the church? Was it became a business?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yeah,
Steve:no preaching of the gospel
Reverend Ben Cooper:been there
Steve:You know, you're really bums on seats, and really bums on seats, because you need money coffers.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's where I am. One of the areas I am, as Steve very well knows that. There's been a complete change in my preaching style completely, that I'm not I'm not a people pleaser. I will try to preach a message that make people feel happy and comfortable, a seeker friendly message because you're asking for that she's asking for this and, and it confused me for many years. But now I've got freedom. This lockdown has given me freedom.
Steve:i mean if we go to Matthew five, and Jesus's teacher is blessing us at mourn,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah.
Steve:You know, you're not moaning about mom or dad or the kids have died, you're mourning about your condition,
Reverend Ben Cooper:your condition,
Steve:there is a revelation that you are corrupt and evil, and you are going to mourn, you're going to mourn before God. And that is part and parcel. For us as Christians, in an ongoing walk before God when he revealed certain things to us, or were understanding of certain things. We mourn over our condition, we mourn over the sin that we see. We mourn over the failures. We mourn over our lack of love. We mourn over all of these things that we should be, but we are not. And that is part and parcel of the morning. And he says, You all know that you're going to be comforted. God hears he sees your morning he he knows it
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a realisation that a wretched man.
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Am I Why do I do the things I shouldn't? And I can't do the things that I should.
Steve:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when it's exposed by the Holy Spirit inside, that is a great place to be because that's when the work starts. And your work can be a lifetime journey.
Steve:It is a lifetime journey. The thing is that there are certain things that we were talking about this earlier on, there are certain things that I think God allows to stay. And you have to wrestle with him over it. Now in some respects, it's gone allows it to stay because there's a question. Do you really want to be rid of it?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Do you really want that?
Steve:Do you really want to be rid of it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You are free from it, but it's walking by me.
Steve:You keep going back? You want to beat it? Do you? Yes, I do. Are you sure? Yes, I do,do you? Yes, I do
Reverend Ben Cooper:And it's that it's a tug of war. backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards.
Steve:As as a believer for many years. I am i've i've known things taken away straightaway. No problem. Gone. Right. But there have been other things that God has allowed to stay. And I've had to wrestle with him over that. And the thread of psychology, unfortunately, has been pushed into the church. You do this because you did that as a child. You do this because of this thing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yes. Yes.
Steve:Yeah, I understand that, you know. Like, I understand all of that. And there are things that happened to us as children that caused us to grow up in a certain way or a particular way.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:But there comes a point in the life of the Christian where that is of no use at all. Whatever I did, as it did, there's no excuse anymore. Okay, I R is a young man I took to drink because that was the way I dealt with my problems. Yeah. I can't keep looking out. But that's the reason. No, no, no, no. The reason you do it is because you're a sinner and you need to deal with it before God. You've got to stop making excuses. And there comes a point where God I think allows these things to continue until we run out of excuses.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Do you think we Yeah, you're very right there. Do you think that we reach a point where we're where we're going? Oh, actually, no, I don't want to admit that. Because when I admit that it's really becomes real.
Steve:Yes. oh yes,
Reverend Ben Cooper:when I admit it when I admit it, but you know, that you're doing it went, but when I really admit it, that's what but actually admitting it. And reaching that point, is an accelerator to go, you know what, I'm going to get this done.
Steve:But this is the thing again, it's understanding that we need God's grace and love to be able to face these things truthfully. Yeah. Because what we're afraid of, I think some of us is that if I, as you say, if I really confess it, God's gonna come down, he's gonna lower boom, and that's gonna be my lot.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, hes goping to beat me with a stick and im done for
Steve:it will never allow, it will never have me back.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He'll never have me back. That's the fact, isn't it?
Steve:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because that that church out there that is preaching that wishy washy false stuff doesn't enter into these type of conversations. It won't even bring that interest is far from that. But when you speak to real believers, and you build that safe place, have a real conversation. And you know, you can trust your brother, or you can trust your system, you go, you know what, I've got the same thing. It's a revelation, it's freedom. Me in brothers and sisters are like that you can be very real with
Steve:finding that
Reverend Ben Cooper:they don't judge
Steve:There's other people that have wrestled with the same thing. And I remember years and years ago, I was reading john Newton's biography, the chief of sinners. And I was I was really struggling at the time. And I mean, it's not sound struggled since but at that particular moment in time, I was struggling with a lot. And I could find no help anywhere. And God brought this book to my attention, and I started reading it. And it felt like Newton reaching over 300 years tapped me on the shoulder and say, Don't worry, so not being hit. Oh, yeah. The book is the chief of sinners,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the chief of sinners.
Steve:It's Newton's biography. And it got encouraged me through the book.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And so I again, and each time when I saw I was going to falter and fall, God has encouraged me to continue. I mean, there was one point in my walk with the Lord. Probably. I don't know, maybe 15 years ago, perhaps. I, I just felt like, I can't carry on. I can't continue this. It's not that I was rejecting Christ. It wasn't that I was considering going off to worship Buddha or something. I just got this sense. I cannot continue. I don't know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:But I found a couldn't.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No you. He said, you said something really interesting as well. You've reached that point where the P 45. has gone back upstairs. But you don't want to let go of it. Because you know that you can't get back with a thunder bolt, it's like, I can't give up when you are a real believer, you the Scripture, nothing can separate us. We can't we reach these points of these mass walls where we go on done for I'm broken on. I can't do this anymore.
Steve:And it was strangely enough it before I came to this fellowship, there was a UFC champion. He was a I think it's a Western young guy. And again, about 15 years ago, yeah, I think you might have been one of your deacons.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yeah.
Steve:And sandra Robson, have you ever
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Sometimes with the persecute church. She knew that I was really going through. And she said, would you would you like to meet him? And I said, Yeah, came around my house. And he prayed for me. And he really encouraged me and so I was able to continue and go on. But it's the the difficulties the the warfare. The continuous Batman against my flesh. Yeah. I've, I've come to understand that God allowed it to make me the man that he wants me to be. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And do you think that the bar is set so High, Just it's just impossible to get to that bar. And his holiness is so holy, so pure that I feel that I'm so far away some days. I just can't get any further. I'm so far more touching his back because I've gone so far around the circle.
Steve:You can't. The one thing about it is and this is the thing, what we've lost in the church. Is this coming to the end of oneself? Yeah. You If we go to the, when Paul was in prison, yeah. And he and Silas have just taken some real beatings and they were put in prison, they were in the stock setting. And I was singing praising the Lord. And it was a huge earthquake. And the the jailer thought everybody had escaped. Yeah. And you know, that was his lot. He was he was not he was he was gonna pile on lockdown. and post it. No, no, we're all here. Don't worry about it. We're okay. And that basically the conversation continues. This means is what must I do to be saved? Yeah. And one of the problems I think, in the church over the years, people have not been pushed to that place of grief. When I cry out, what must I do to be saved? Yeah, it's been suit too easy.
Reverend Ben Cooper:To say everything's all right. And
Steve:there's been too easy. So you know, just choose Jesus, give him your heart, and so on and so forth. Whereas john Barr and Johnny, are preaching saying, you should never make it easy to get into the kingdom of God. Because
Reverend Ben Cooper:it isn't easy.
Steve:And so you should never teach an easy belief. And that's what we've, we've been
Reverend Ben Cooper:very soft, very soft wave.
Steve:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:a cotton wool Christianity
Steve:is your friend. He wants you, you know, and he understands what you've gone through is you need the other thing. If you take certain aspects of the word and you bring it in. It tends to make the the preaching of an evangelical word, it seems to be sound. But if you don't push people to the point where they're crying outside me, I need to save Yeah. You're not doing them any favours.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No,
Steve:you're so you end up in easy believe ism, you end up with people. I've given my heart to the Lord, and so on and so forth. And they end up just going to church and reading the Bible and singing hymns, you know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And then we're crossing into ethics and liberal and soft
Steve:science, there's no conviction, if there's no wrestling with God over your sinful condition. Yeah. You have to consider that you are not of the faith. Yeah. But because not all things are dealt with, at point or conversion.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No,
Steve:he deals with some things. But other things he doesn't. And you have to wrestle with him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And they can run a lifetime with you. Until you get to glory. You can almost smell it and touch it. It's always in touch in distance. And you're praying so hard, keep Lord pleased, please, three times I pleaded with the Lord. Take this from whatever that might be. See,
Steve:my particularly one that would would not necessarily be in line with what we're talking about in the moment, but certainly from the point of view of, of crying out to God, please, you know, please deal with it. It's more in line of Romans seven. Yeah, Richard man is
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, help me.
Steve:It's, it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:but realising that I'm not living, right, realising that I've got things to be dealt with. I would rather be here than to be blinded by a box of Christianity. Everything is wrapped up in a nice little bow on top, you're gonna be okay. And if suddenly get to glory and go. I didn't know.
Steve:Yeah. I mean, in summary, we've spoken about this before. In many respects, the evangelism that we have today, is inherited through Finney to moody to Billy Sunday to Billy Graham, Lewis, palaeo, and so on and so forth. And you've got this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:A very soft,
Steve:yeah, come to Jesus and give him give him your heart here, make a decision
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, and then go back,
Steve:make a decision. I found Jesus way wasn't lost. It's you cant, You don't know. Spurgeon once said, you don't know the point at which you are born again. All you might know, is the point at which you realise
Reverend Ben Cooper:there's a bit of a reference to it.
Steve:What he meant by that is that you don't know at what point God begins to work in your life because he's working before the beginning of time he is working before you're even conscious of the
Reverend Ben Cooper:setting is at it. Yeah. Before we even realise that there's a move of him. Yes. Oh, yeah, it goes so deep then it salvation. So far,
Steve:if we look at the least for what I've said, conditions, or aspects of synergy, this is just a kind of loose framework to kind of have a look at four things. But if we ever looking in Psalm 51, five to six is where David is crying out to God for forgiveness. his affair with Bathsheba.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And he says, Look, I was out I'm reading from the new new English translation. Look, you I was guilty of sin from birth centre, the moment my mother conceived me. Look you desire integrity in the man, you want me to possess wisdom, cleanse me with his up and I will be pure wash me, and I'll be whiter than snow in seven. But what you have here is a declaration by a man of God, whom God said this is a man after my own heart.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:who is saying I was a sinner from the point of conception. The I know that from the beginning of my time, I was a sinner.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I was fallen,
Steve:fallen nature sinner, far from God. And yet the strange thing with David's relationship with God was that God was drawing him in. And so. But the importance of this declaration here is that it lines up with what Paul says, when he says, All have sinned and fallen out of the glory of God. So what we what we look at here is the sin of the unregenerate man, that the man who is unregenerate it cannot do anything. But sin, He doesn't mean is going to be a killer or a murderer or anything like that, but sin in itself. And if we look at where it says, Jesus, who takes away the sin of the world, the sin of the world is the rejection of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes,
Steve:it's saying I don't want you I don't need you. I don't recognise you. Or I'll have you on my terms. And Jesus took that sin away, we will go back the sin of the world in many respects is that which we inherited through Adam and Eve here that they rejected the command of God, and were thrown out of the garden. And it developed very quickly in this unkind Yes, point of murder. So it shows that the speed of it, yes, sweet. It's very sweet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And then we got ally mech
Reverend Ben Cooper:and all that law, and they all go barmy
Steve:But the thing is that we have, from the very, very early stages, this sin at work in us, and shall I say that it's the ground upon which we grow. We're out of which we grow. And that sin of the world produces the fruits of sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:The pride of rejecting God produces everything from rejection of God to being a thief, to being a blessed famer to being an adulterer to being a drunkard to be in
Reverend Ben Cooper:everything,
Steve:everything
Reverend Ben Cooper:the whole blanket
Steve:the whole thing is it comes out of that place. The regenerated man, he might be a very nice chap, and he might not drink.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:and he might not fool around with women.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And he might be loyal to one wife here. And he might never have told her line his life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But
Steve:But he rejects God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:that old ground of I don't want you.That's it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it? Is that?
Steve:Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:done.
Steve:And he can't do anything else. But because that's what he is
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's what he is. That's what he is. It's our 51 that Steve has read out I just my eyes keep going to verse six. You desired faithfulness, even in the womb. This is you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
Steve:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That is a deep tech you desire faithfulness, even in the womb, when, when conception that's impossible
Steve:it is totally possible.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's why this line says so much
Steve:with it shows you the demands,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the demands that it is impossible,
Steve:its impossible to make those demands. absolutely impossible,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you cannot meet that
Steve:And that's why I said earlier on the if, if the Word of God is preached properly, right, and this is brought out the under the anointing of God, someone who's got a crowd and what do you want me to do? How can I be saved?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:if the if this is the demand of a holy God, how on earth can I come to a place of salvation? Giving your heart to Jesus? aint gotta do it. You've got to cry out to God save me. I need a saviour. That
Reverend Ben Cooper:that Yeah, that's right. That is completely almost the place where you're just completely frozen out to him crying?
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:What David says here you desire even in the womb, that death over that that that's finished, is impossible.
Steve:It is impossible to please, please a holy God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So living as a believer. Oh, there that's a different different.
Steve:Again, when we talk about evangelism earlier on this is why really and truthfully, an easy believe ism is of no use to the soul of man,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because it doesn't bring me conviction. No Got the gospel brings me conviction.
Steve:all he does is pour oil on troubled waters. He does no more than it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, Yeah, he just tried to serve them. They're just trying to serve me in the state that I'm living in.
Steve:Yeah. Whereas the truth of the matter is, you've got to be brought to your desperation
Reverend Ben Cooper:to desperation of crying out, yeah, what must I do to be what have I got to do it to be saved? Because I cannot live to this word, I cannot get near it. I cannot. I cannot be that a for for a second to you. But then it comes back. And what we've looked at before is faithfulness is mercy, mercy sovereignty,
Steve:but it's then you see, when this sort of thing you there to this? Yeah. Then Christ steps in and says, look, look what I've done for you. If you resting me, I will be your saviour. If you recognise what I've done for you on the cross.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:All this is dealt with, you don't have to deal with it. Or it got to wrestle with you over there, which we'll do in a minute. But the point being is that at that point of conviction of here of sin, and a need for salvation, yeah, that's when the preaching of this is what Christ has done.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:And this then becomes, you see the, see the other Second to the conviction of sin. And third, to the salvation of the soul. Yeah. And if we stay on the area of thing, the preaching of the gospel is first of the glory of conviction of sin, when conviction of sin comes, it does God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. two things. You either repels people away from Christ drives them,
Steve:or it draws them in
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Because once someone is confronted by this, your people are not interested in Okay, I've got I don't want you jesus go away because something has angered them inside
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, there's been a trigger.
Steve:There's it Yeah, it is. It is a triggering.
Reverend Ben Cooper:youve lit the touchpaper. Yeah. You've prodded me.
Steve:Yeah, and God prods
Reverend Ben Cooper:he does prod
Steve:prods. You know, you've proded me, and i dont wamnt to know, whereas on the other side, it's this crying out. Oh, Lord God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Thank you for the prod. Thank you. Save me for crying out from the heart. Yes, not lip service. There's too much lip service is a cry from the innermost being. Yes, the very depths of one soul?
Steve:Yeah. And I think one of the reasons why probably Christians over the years have have probably had to wrestle with it more and more and more and more and more, is that my suggestion is that the vast majority of Christians today have never gone through that aspect of conviction of sin in excess, yet they have had to have it worked out within them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Whereas it could have been dealt with. If we look at people like I remember seeing a I've got a book at home on George Whitfield. And there's a Wood Cup on the front, and Wakefield is standing in a field. And he's got his hands raised up, he's got his Bible under his hands, and is surrounded by hundreds, even 1000s of people, when you've got some people that are truly blind to Trump it down to zero to try and shut him up. You've got somebody beating the drum of keeping him quiet. But at the same time, you've got other people, they're falling down under conviction. So you've it's a Kairos moment. It's a chaotic moment, but no time in this group of people is there anybody that's kind of here, I don't care. What was happening through what Phil was doing. God was at work. And he was challenging the people in from I was stirring, and it was stirring it was bringing him and when people came under this conviction of sin, as I say it was either get out of my face.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Or hold saved me. And we are in desperate need to be brought back to that place
Reverend Ben Cooper:place
Steve:place again.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:it's part and parcel. So I think if you look at some of the revivals, the Welsh or we have a dinner of ours. So that's what God was bringing, even to his children who, who had salt they had dealt with it. They hadn't and he wanted to. Yeah, and so we brought them to a crisis point. Bring me to the we need to be brought to a crisis point.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yes. A crisis point. is a freedom point.
Steve:Yeah, pretty much
Reverend Ben Cooper:it really is. It really is.
Steve:If we look at Romans seven, now, yeah. This is we have to be careful how we use this because if we're not careful, we're not using these texts as an excuse.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Not an excuse. I'm gonna pick out from seven So what shall I say in Islam or sin? Absolutely not. Certainly, I would not have known sin, except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else. If the law had said do not covet, but sin, seizing the opportunity through the command produced in me all kinds of wrong these For apart from the loss, and he's dead, and I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment, sin became alive and I died. So I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death, we figured out me 2324. And it says, and again, I'm going to pick it up in 21, really. So I find the law that I want to do, good, sorry, for I find the law that when I want to do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God in my inner being. But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin is in my members, wretched man, that I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now, I know that there have been Calvinist preachers,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes,
Steve:counties, teachers that have used this to excuse what they do is not me, I don't sin any more. This the same with me. And I'm saved. And I'm okay. Because I've been chosen. And God has saved me. And I'm all right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Well,
Steve:and there's been a rejection of their, their possibility that, yeah, they're not responsible for this anymore. So here, yeah. Whereas what Paul is getting at here is that we have these two natures at war, all day long, all day long. And not on the one hand, I desperately want to do what God wants. But But I find this wretched, evil, horrible man within me, doesn't want to do it and wanders off and goes and does something I don't want him to do. And we wrestle with the this area of sin in our life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:we do. I mean,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it is a wrestle.
Steve:It can be anything. It can be drink, it can be smoking, it could be pornography, it can be gambling, Yeah it's whatever got indulgent in a world, because you're indulging the flesh. Yeah, you see, and you're making excuses for why you do it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And the world will will pat you on the back and hold your hand into that. Because that's how it's built up. Yeah.
Steve:And so what we have to do we have to wrestle with the Lord over the condition of flesh. We have to, and we cannot, as I say, these people don't make excuses from sir. I'm sorry. There's no there's no area in scripture where you can say, Oh, that's all right. It's sin. What do you mean, there was a place? We come back to the to the Gnostics. Yeah. You know, the old gnostic teaching. You know, I, I'm a man of flesh, and I'm a man of spirit. I've been born again in the spirit. So my flesh can do what it pleases, and in don't make any difference. There is
Reverend Ben Cooper:an insurance policy.
Steve:Nonsense
Reverend Ben Cooper:ignorance,
Steve:yes, totally and total and utter ignorance. But what we have here is Paul showing
Reverend Ben Cooper:honesty.
Steve:Yeah, where we've come out of, we've been born again, we've been brought into the kingdom of God, through Christ Jesus. And unfortunately, we bring baggage with us what that baggage is our flesh. Yeah. And we have to see it crucified,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and all the time I'm braving that baggage is with me
Steve:the old man he is diminishing, he's dying on a daily basis, but he's still there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's the reason
Steve:he's me. He's, I can't say he's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he's me. It's not Lucifer. It's me.
Steve:It's me. That is me. That is my old self that isn't, you know, What is there? Here again, we come back to Romans 12. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Yeah, you might prove the good, perfect and acceptable of God. You have to have that mind renewed. So that you know and understand what it is that God doesn't want you to do. What he does want you to do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, and it's different from for for different people. First 24 it says there, what a wretched man. Yeah, I am. Yeah, no one else know me. as Steve is just saying, me
Steve:me on, you know, it's me. I do. I can't point to anybody else. No, it's therefore that I'm doing what I'm doing
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, And could we say that this is the greatest writer that was writing this, this, this, this man have been through what had been through the greatest writer,
Steve:again, coming back to what I was saying about conviction of sin, when he's writing this? Yeah, he comes on to this conviction. So what what, what am I gonna do? whos gonna send me free from this body of death.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:he's, he's, he's hit that crisis.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He's hit the crisis point.
Steve:He said the crisis.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He's not in a pastor's office. And he just kept on he's right in that lovely bit of literature. He is hit the end.
Steve:Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He's lived it
Steve:this is your thing about Paul, he's not sitting in some cave somewhere and donating tightly to it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No
Steve:Yes. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these things. But he loved these things on the back of what he went through. Yeah. through both basically through his prayers through his understanding of what the law was saying to him from his understanding of the Old Testament. Yeah. And he's application. Yes. Of all of it. And coming to an understanding His situation So coming back Yeah, what do you what you picked up with with regards to David? I am a sinner from the beginning. I am a sinner in my in wood parts. Yeah, who's gonna
Reverend Ben Cooper:set me free from this? This is like frantic feel to this? Yes. A lacquer like a crazy person must lift your hands
Steve:screaming screaming Yeah, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. This is this is a day one we're getting we're getting its good its all good.
Steve:I so to carry on with it a bit you Don't make excuses for what you do. You have as a child of God, you have to know what you have in your flesh and height it detested it revolts you. You become a stench in your own nostrils.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It affects you so much. You You can't stand it. its irritating it doesnt believe you
Steve:you'd love to cut it out.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it doesn't leave you and all the time, you know that it's there you God is dealing with it. But it's been revealed and more revealed and exposed and god it exposing it.
Steve:Yeah. And there are times when you think I can't deal with it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I gotta run for me.
Steve:Yeah, we come back to that. The other aspect that we spoke about before, you know, I'm afraid to confess it because if I confess it before him, that's it. He's gonna dry me out and garden.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And we've got this this wall, I've got this feeling in my head that if I just hold it in my head, he don't know.
Steve:The number of times I've come before him and said, Lord, I know you know this. But I need to confess it before you. Yeah, it's not enough that you know it. I know coming.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I need to speak
Steve:Will you please take
Reverend Ben Cooper:it from me when you deal with this. And that's the difference between lip service and the desire the hunger to get dealt with from the heart.
Steve:Yeah. And from the heart has to be there. You have to want it to be done with and it gets to the point where you say to God, I don't care what you do. I don't care what it costs. I don't care where you take me. I don't care what you do to me, but I've got to be free and it's got to be free. I've got to be free of this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yes. Yes. I've got to be free. I've got to be free. Christ will set us free.
Steve:I want to pick up in one peter. One
Reverend Ben Cooper:beautiful one Peter, chapter one. And we're just gonna go
Steve:this is gonna sound a bit different from Yeah, it's normally said, but I like the NA t already. It says, like obedient children do not comply with the evil urges you used to follow in your ignorance.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Evil urges? Yeah. Like it. I like the way that's presented.
Steve:And basically Pete the same here. Fight, fight wrestle. wrestle. In one of his things. He says you have not resisted sin to the spilling of blood. You ain't dead yet. Right. So carry on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're enjoying it?
Steve:We're No, no,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, but you have enjoyed but now you've been ignorant to it. But now you've got a wrestle? Yeah, you've got yourself.
Steve:Yeah, he was saying basically is this is gonna go on until the day you die. You will not resist this thing until you have not resisted his sin. And you've not resisted sin, by the spilling of blood or until you spoke last Sunday. Basically what he's saying is you haven't you haven't died. So you've got this, you're gonna have to deal with this on a daily basis.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, that's where we go. But that fact is, is fact you're gonna have to deal with this daily basis. You don't resist the spilling of blood. You're not resistant to the spoon until you breathe your life. So you breathe your last until God calls you home. You will wrestle and wrestle and wrestle with certain aspects and certain areas of life. Yeah. Oh, God can go done. Yeah, I
Steve:mean, there are things that he deals with.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Could you read that again today from the show? That was really, really, really, really nice.
Steve:Like obedient children do not comply with the evil urges you used to follow in your ignorance. The evil urges,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the flesh, the desire of the flesh, the the gratification of the flesh
Steve:was talking about when you were ignorant of God. Yeah. All right, you ignorant of God, which we can't realise that we were poor system until the Lord came. I didn't know I was I
Reverend Ben Cooper:notice. I didn't know. I didn't know. didn't Until the truth was revealed. I did not know that. I know we might carry Okay, when I was with the world. Yeah, I was doing what the world is doing.
Steve:Because that's what I did. Because that's what we all do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, and then. We we get If God does what he does when we become a believer, and then trying to transform from what we was, to what he wants us to be flesh kicks the flesh is
Steve:and that's when that's when the devil comes in. And he starts speaking in your mind starts bringing temptation in your life. Don't give the devil a foothold. And you know, you're in. You've been we've been brought out the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And exposes everything.
Steve:yeah, and our flesh, if you will, is the fifth column within us. Yeah. And it wants to go back. Yes. So the devil wants to go back to the kingdom of darkness. He wants to go back. Yeah, the Hebrews wanted to go back to eat cucumbers and melons. And it wasn't all nice back then.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Do you remember
Steve:him bricks without straw? Yeah, i dont think so but this is what when sight comes on and he tries to woo you
Reverend Ben Cooper:back downstairs and gently like the garden language of the Garden of Eden. Are you sure? Are you sure? the softness? Here it kinda Are you sure? And it's that seductive voice drawing Yeah, yeah. And then next thing Oh, God help me. Yeah, I'm back. I'm back where I was. And so that there is a physical wrestle this week just with your inner self this series with the inner self
Steve:I mean, it's it over the years there have been times where extreme headaches because wrestling against things and tiredness tiredness, exhaustion. Yeah, yeah. Because you're wrestling against it. You want to be free of it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And who said Christianity was all roses and cups of tea and scons and more tea vicar tell you what the biggest wrestles I've ever read is come from beginning a lockdown. Yeah, because
Steve:before I was a Christian in a pub and have a few beers Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's it. Yeah. I'll drink anyway thorugh and I'll enjoy me sin wherever Yeah, yeah.
Steve:enjoys want to
Reverend Ben Cooper:do it was a word dealt with it? Yeah, I subdued it. I tried to squash it. tried to drown it right. Gosh, more tea vicar, everything's all right. I've wrestled. Yeah, sugar coated gospel. That's the sugar cut. Sugar kills sugar is dangerous. I wrestled with myself. TrueChristianity,
Steve:Hebrews 10. Yep. And 26. For if we deliberately keep on singing, sinning, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us. But only a certain fearful expectation of judgement, fury of fire that will consume God's enemies call make me want to leave the building makes me want to run. And so this is where we have to understand about willful sin. There are lots of Christians because they struggle with what the old man of God called besetting sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah,
Steve:they feel that they're being willful. But as we've explained near these, this war that's going on within. There are times when the old man is so strong that we yield to him and we yield to the sin. But then we come back and we seek God's forgiveness and we pick up our cross and we carry on here. But what we have here is what the author of the Hebrews is talking about is something completely different. If we, for instance, have a situation where someone and this is why easy believe ism is very dangerous. If we have someone is in the church, and we get a soft, pedalled Christianity,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah.
Steve:And somebody says, make your decision for Jesus. And depending on on how it works, we have to be careful and understand that emotions can cause all sorts of problems. Yeah. We can sit in a situation where we feel emotionally. I want to go down this road or want to do this or want to do that. We stick around is up in the air. We say yes, Jesus, I want to, you know, come into my heart and save me. And, but there's no regeneration.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, there's no change. There's no change. That's very religious.
Steve:We are in a very dangerous place, very dangerous place. The cause to some degree, we've just heard about the truth. To some degree, we've received certain aspects of the truth
Reverend Ben Cooper:and we're rejecting the truth.
Steve:And if we are not brought to that place of desperation, we can end up carrying on in our Sin purposefully. That's all right. I'm saved. Now. Jesus saved me on. Okay. I can carry on with what I was doing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Again, we come back to the old Gnostics. Yeah. i go to church on a Sunday. Yeah. You know, that's it. That's, that's terrific. But I'm, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'm back at
Steve:y'all. I'm not going to go this week No, cuz there's a golf match or not. And I'll go, I'll mark the card next week. And it ends up to being no more than a religious club. Yeah, that's one aspect of it. The other aspect
Reverend Ben Cooper:club of it is an again, very, this area of danger is a question of why do you continue doing what you're doing? God knows me. He made me You know, he died while I am here, you know, you know, you know, donate a beer. You know, thats alright, no problem. You know, the difference between the two is the man, I don't want this drink. I dont want it. And he ends up drinking it. And it takes you the perspiration and he hates himself. And as the act is happening, you are crying inside, but you can't stop the flesh indulgent?
Steve:No. And you've I mean, alcoholics that want to be set free from alcohol. You know, they don't want to go back in, they don't want to go back in but then they find go back in and it's, you know, and so you've got this situation of if the there is no regeneration, you haven't got the where with all of Christ inside that has renewed you to understand that sin is evil, and you don't want it or be the flesh still draws to it, and sometimes falls into it again. But the unregenerate No, no, no, no, no, I actually got those me on stage. I put my own at my church last week.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He loves me. Jesus is my friend Jesus,
Steve:my power is my friend. He understands me, you might be in a while. And he knows exactly. Oh, and that's no problem. You know, he's a is a friend of sinners. sinners, all right.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You know, yeah. manipulation of Scripture.
Steve:Yeah. The other one as well is that Paul talks about in the end of time, he thinks in his in Timothy, one of Tennessee's letters to Timothy, where it talks about people will not bear sound doctrine. And yeah. The thing about the word is it's very, very clear on areas of everything, everything, absolutely everything, certainly with regards to the nonsense of false prophets, for teachers. But people continue to sit under that teaching. And the reason they continue to sit underneath it is because they have got itching ears, and it's soften them and make them feel comfortable. What is being preached? Yeah. Now you will find, I mean, there's plenty of evidence of people that have come out of word of faith and new apostolic reformation. So not everybody, you know, you're going to find you've got this mix and match. But those people that continue, when they are confronted with the truth, rejected No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I, I remember last year, when Kenneth Copeland was supposed to have blown COVID off the face of the earth. And he said, I know we laugh, but this is dangerous, because he said, I said, I stand here in the office of a prophet. So he was making a very bold statement. I stained here in the office of a prophet. Unless he understands what prophet is.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He is not ignorant.
Steve:He knows what
Reverend Ben Cooper:he knows.
Steve:All right. Yeah, you know, scripture is probably far better than either. right. And he knows what a prophet is. So he stands up, this is a stand in the office of a prophet. And I blow COVID off of the face of this earth. And then he, he blew, and it was supposed to have gone, but it didn't go. It didn't go. Now he maintained that he was a prophet. by the fact that he didn't work. He's shown to be a false prophet. He's shown the world to be a false prophet. If you continue to follow that man, willfully. You are now a willful sin, because he has shown you by his actions, or God has shown you by the failure of his actions. Yeah, he is a false prophet. I won't go into his teaching, because some of these teachings really is vile. So even from that point of view is a false teacher. But if if you keep making excuses for him, yeah, what you're saying is what he preaches about, all the other stuff you're really wanting. I'm in agreement. I'm in agreement, I'm in agreement, I will make excuses for him. And I will make excuses for all of these people here, but in the Word of God, there are Want to excuse? God's word says very clearly, this is why this area of willful sin, you have to be very, very careful of my word, not return void.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's why it's so critical, as Steve is saying that when you hear that someone says, I am a prophet, I sit in this office. And if you're bringing something that God has told you, you better make sure it's right. Well, you better make sure you better make sure that you're hearing Yeah. But we put out but we've been lit up with it across the world that we see this so much more and more. It's like God has actually put a highlight around certain people that call themselves preachers and teachers and prophets that you can see that what they're saying doesn't line up with Scripture.
Steve:I mean, I remember listening to one new apostolic reformation, the so called Prophet saying, Well, you know, back in the day, we didn't know whether they were true prophets, and for a couple of 100 years, you know, because he didn't come about for a couple of 100 years. Okay, fine. Oh, yeah. If you were to argue that, but you might have prophecy that something was going to happen last week, and it didn't, it's got stronger. So yeah, you're false, are you? Yeah, boy, no matter which way I keep on learning, ah, on learning, we're still in a process of learning. Well, let's go back to those profits of old but you questioned whether or not they were really true. Everything they said is true and has come to pass without a doubt. So they are solid, and they are not wrong. and I are not false prophets. But you. You know, a man only has to tell one lawyer to be a lawyer. Tell 1000s or not
Reverend Ben Cooper:just one,
Steve:you know, I don't I don't have to be, you know, I only need one thing to be a thief. I only need to kill one person to be a murderer.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. 111 action. Or
Steve:a butcher. 1000s of millions of people
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it. Yeah. One, one, All have sinned and fallen short with
Steve:these people. They will, the truth is in front, but they willfully will not accept the truth and willfully continue to sin. And if you follow after these people, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:is a warning today, I do believe this is a warning from heaven. It is now the time at the time is now to be in the word to be in in that sound doctrine. coming under the gospel of Jesus Christ, now is the time of salvation. We're moving on. We've got we got a bit of time left. We got
Steve:one more, one more bring this up. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:let's do it.
Steve:It's out of Colossians. Two, and it was something that as I was reading this morning, yeah. That came that I was reminded of, but I'm going to pick it up in six things. Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in a matter of a feast, new moon or Sabbath days. These are only the shadow of the things to come. But the reality is Christ. Let no one who delights in false humility, and the worship of angels pass judgement on you. That person goes on at great lengths about what he has supposedly seen. But he is puffed up with empty notions by his fleshly mind what a great scripture. It's one reason why I like any tea because it sort of does unpack it. He does. Yeah. And basically, if we look at our for these people going up and backwards or forwards to heaven, they haven't got a clue what they're talking about. Now they dare puffed up in their mind.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Steve:You know, the worship of angels. They
Reverend Ben Cooper:just say that the worship of angels.
Steve:Yeah. And again, we come back to these things, if you will continue to follow after these people, when they are proven through Scripture, through scripture to be completely and utterly wrong, and they will not repent, but will continue to make excuses for why they do it. Yeah. You better stop following these people. Yeah, there's a war is otherwise you are going to be complicit with their willful sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And you're accountable to what your commander?
Steve:Yeah, very much. So. Yeah. We'll see. And before going on to individually, you believe there is no use be pointing to someone who said when he told me the
Reverend Ben Cooper:pastor Ben said it.
Steve:Because God said, Well, what about that Bible that you had? What about reading?
Reverend Ben Cooper:What about the word? What steve, Steve has brought a very interesting discussion today. What about the word? Have you read it? You know, we have reached that we have Steven, we've lived the touchpaper and it's been a really interesting discussion. And a listen for each and every one of us. We've we've been in songs we've been in Romans, Hebrews Colossians. And we thank God for His word, it brings truth. It brings true fun and sin is a very, very difficult subject to talk about. Because what no one likes to admit that do they, but ease freedom is freedom.
Steve:You know, it says confess your sins one to another. It doesn't mean you you usually go around and reel off. But, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:your having them general discussions
Steve:found over the years in all truthfulness, I found over the years very few people that I could trust in a church, I found that at times when I did trust, it was thrown back in my face that that
Reverend Ben Cooper:that that's very true. That's really important to remember that we need to find people, the ones and the twos, that we have the confidence to say, you know what, I've really made a mess of this and that they're going to go solve I don't worry.
Steve:And I found over the years. The Lord gave me that, that book by john Newton, because the people with whom I thought or the people I thought I could trust. Now trust. I couldn't trust
Reverend Ben Cooper:so when when we're spilling the beans, they're bringing the judgement Look, they're bringing they're bringing their religious stare at us. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we get that we know that we were there. We we've been there we it's, but it's actually finding the ones that all like, that great part in the New Testament where that that man was on his bed, and they got him to Jesus, where you can trust that we got a lower friend to Jesus, we were going to get you to Jesus. We're going to help you in your sickness. We're going to help you in your segment we're going to we're going to carry you would be with you, no matter what my friend needs Jesus, we're going to get there
Steve:And it's I think, in all truthfulness, I would suggest that Christians in this country for years and years and years struggle with things Yes, with their shine, that not having anybody to go and talk to having anybody that they can trust, afraid that it's going to be thrown back in their face. carrying a burden, which is crushing them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Literally. And you come into church smiling, trying to smile. Everything's alright pastor. Don't worry, thanks. Great. But you're being crushed by religion. Yes. Because you haven't got the freedom. You haven't got that safe space. You haven't got that one or that term?
Steve:Okay, we come back to this business of you know, you put your hand up and Jesus is your friend. Oh, I'm still wrestling with this. You know, what's the what's your problem?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Are you saved?
Steve:Are you saved? yeah. are you saved?
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's the line we're finishing on. God bless you, wherever you are today. And the question is, are you saved? Lord bless you, God bless. Have a great afternoon. Good morning, good evening, wherever you might be may it be great, because you know it is it's a great subject. We've been talking about sin. It gives us freedom. It actually brings freedom talking about it. And you're not alone. You are not alone. God bless. Thank you. Bye bye.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.